Nose-diving into the Ground (West Air Sweden Flight 294) - DISASTER BREAKDOWN
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- Опубликовано: 12 авг 2022
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If there is one thing no one expects from a plane, it’s for it to simply fall into a dive and plummet into the ground nose first. It’s an almost impossible to imagine scenario that would bring about many questions for those investigating such an incident. On January 8th, 2016, such an accident took place in Northern Europe. The pilots of a Cargo plane struggling to understand what had happened to their plane. Before they could recover their stricken plane and make sense of their situation, their aircraft and themselves crashed into a mountainous region of Sweden. The recovered Flight data detailed a rather baffling explanation for the crash. So the question now being, just what was going on, on that plane?
Sources:
www.havkom.se/assets/reports/...
tailstrike.com/database/08-ja...
avherald.com/h?article=4920a18...
/ paradox-of-the-improba...
If you found this video to be interesting, be sure to subscribe as there is a new video every Saturday. This video also went out to my Patrons on Patreon 48 hours before going out publicly. Consider joining here from £1 per month: www.patreon.com/DisasterBreakdown
“IRU disagreement” alert on the screens would have been perfect here. Basically show an error if pilot/copilot sources deviate significantly on any display that helps the pilots not crash the plane. Better CRM etc might be helpful but an early heads up on the system knowing it’s showing them different realities would be an obvious reduction of life threatening confusion.
I think it even warrants a master caution alarm
Pro Line 4 does have miscompare flags for heading and attitude, as well as a message on the CAS that should have alerted them
Earlier aircraft, such as the DC-8, had a comparator system that alerted the pilots of discrepancies between their instruments. Systems like this may have been removed because of the elimination of the space that was provided by the F/E panels from 2-crew cockpits.
As was said in the video, the comparator posted a "PIT" disagreement flag on both PFDs, but it was cleared by the system as soon as the attitude became excessive and the displays went into "declutter" mode. They would still have had an "EFIS COMP MON" message on their EICAS along with a MASTER CAUTION, but I doubt they even noticed it under the circumstances.
Regardless, I can't fathom why the captain didn't instantly look to the standby attitude indicator and copilot PFD and compare them to his PFD. Was a factor...?
@@johncantwell8216 Believe it or not, jets without flight engineers have instrument comparator monitors. Turns out six "TV screens" can provide more information than a single flight engineer.
When this happened I was surprised how many people don't know that during winter time up north in SWE/FIN/NOR there is absolute darkness all day.
Chloe, someone once said to me, in reference to the Miracle on the Hudson: "Planes are designed so that they want to fly and stay in the air as long as physics allow." This makes crashes like this one even more interesting.
Indeed I learnt this one Planes naturally want to fly whereas helicopters are a finely balanced mess of forces that are constantly trying to kill you.
Did not expect his name to be Chloe
not his actual name, it’s a name he gave himself when he decided to be trans
@@halo2bounceguy *her name*
@@funny-bv6lo it is her name.
would’ve hoped the captain would’ve noticed that the altitude and airspeed weren’t changing even though he was seeing a pitch up
Yes, the speed could only get that high in a dive so he only needed to look at the airspeed reading.
That's my question too.
Was the ALTITUDE also showing as climbing in addition to the pitch indicator? If so, hard for the captain to ignore.
@@gusmc01 the video didn’t say but i assume no, since the problem was a faulty IRU. Air data comes from a different source
@@gusmc01 no, the final report states the altitude would have remained the same. It would seem because of spatial disorientation, he reacted only to the pitch up without cross-checking other flight data parameters. It happened quickly and he reacted instinctively. Within 17 seconds of the start of the event, the aircraft was pretty much full nose down and at/ near the speed of sound. So it all happened very quickly
@@noiiiiiize Thank you. Instrument cross check would have been the answer then.
One of the first things I was taught during my instrument training (in 1975......lol) was never trust just one instrument, always verify with the others.
In this case, if power stays the same and the nose pitches up, as the captains attitude indicator read, then airspeed will decrease and altitude will increase.
If the attitude indicator shows nose-up and airspeed and altitude remain the same, it's obvious that the attitude indicator has failed. In this case, simply have the first officer fly........
> One of the first things I was taught during my instrument training (in 1975......lol) was never trust just one instrument, always verify with the others.
Is this not still taught?
@@RatPfink66 Lol.....I don't actually know..
But yes, never rely on just one instrument, always include the back-ups in your scan.
Why are the displays even allowed to show different information to each pilot without giving some kind of warning?
Shouldn't the computers cross-check that automatically?
The displays do give warning that the two displays are showing something different. There was a pitch incongruence warning that showed up on the pilots' displays, warning of exactly this scenario. The pilots didn't see this however, and it was also removed from their displays during the dive. You can see this at 7:46
@@lcr8962 That warning is so small tho, I would think that a plane warning would flicker and make some kind of noise instead of just being a little transparent rectangle
@@MrBrno definitely. The warning wasn't very easy to see or notice. Im pretty sure they changed the way the warning looked after this incident, but I'm not entirely sure
Qxir just did a video on a California fire-fighting plane whose wings literally snapped off what looks like a couple hundred feet above the ground. It was all caught on video. Although he covered the information well, I would love to see your more nuanced, detailed and informed take on it, if you're interested.
I love Qxir. Just saw that video, and it's basically a case of airframe stress fatigue. Not much that can be added to the video, taken into consideration that years have been wiped off its history by (perhaps) the CIA.
@@ramsfan1st43 Yeah, it's possible, but I think that if anyone could flesh the story out more, it would be this channel. With access to the resources they must use to create other videos its possible the story could be expanded upon. If the channel owner sees this and decides to do it, that'd be great, if not it was still a great Qixr video. *shrug*
When the pilot pushed forward to what he thought was to level the aircraft, wouldn't the altimeter show him that he was losing height because he was pitching down?
Or did it all happen too fast?
Bad pilot obviously, he should have checked the copilots instrument and checked the auxiliary IRU quickly if there was disagreement. One would think it would be the first thing he did to verify when he noticed the uncommanded pitch up. If he didn't see the altitude he sure should have seen the airspeed approaching the speed of sound.
@@-Bill. or stand up, he wil see he was not horizontal.............easy to notice.
@@-Bill. Yup, rubbish pilot, and the first officer was also rubbish for not doing anything about it. They didn't communicate at all.
@@-Bill. Even before that, he should have realised that what the instrument was showing was inconsistent with his airspeed and engine thrust.
Sadly, these days, we have become so reliant on automation that some people would use a calculator to add 2+2 and not question it if the answer given was 7.
To fly level, all you need to do is keep your eye on what is happening in your cup of coffee. 🤣
Two things come to mind. 1 If the other multiple indicators looked the same, then by deduction the Captain's indicator was probably faulty. 2 No CRM, the Captain was pitching the plane without asking the First Officer about his reading.
What is "CRW"?
@@yorkshirebikerbitsnbobs Crew Resource Management. Pilots are encouraged to communicate with each other.
@@greymark420 sorry if it sounds snarky, but shouldn't it be CRM?
@@GameFanaticBR - Yes.
Even simpler - a crosscheck of his own instruments would have revealed a discrepancy - if the aircraft had truly pitched up, the altimeter would have been increasing and the vertical speed indicator would have indicated a climb. Additionally, there is a standby attitude indicator which operates independently of the primary systems which should have been crosschecked.
Always look forward to the Sunday uploads :D Great work as always, really appreciate all the research and effort you put into these.
I found your page last week. I have binged so many videos as I love your content! Keep up the great work mate!
Such a sad accident that didn’t need to happen! Perfect example of why communication and refraining from overreacting till assess the situation are imperative.
When I saw the start of the video, I immediately wondered whether the two pilots shared a common language.
@@wilsjane Also noticed that the Captain, although 9 years older than the F/O, only had about 200 more flight hours logged. 3400 is not much for a Captain, just a bit over twice the time required for ATR.
@@johncantwell8216 Perhaps the captain kept failing his assessments, due to not understanding the questions. LOL
Congratulations on 100k! I am of the opinion if you miss or are late with a video because of your move, don't let it worry you. There is enough stress in moving as it is. Just do what you need to do to move and post when you can.
Me, two months ago: "Why would I care about airline disasters?"
Me, now: "Wake up babe it's Saturday, the new Disaster Breakdown just dropped."
Thank you!
What's the other channel called?
Same 😂
I’m happy to see your channel continue to grow. Good luck on your move!!
When Chloe started a sentence with "to answer an obvious question" I was sure she will touch upon why didn't captain cross check his data with FO. This accident was so preventable it's actually scary. Systems like that regularly fail, that's why there's so much built in redundancy. A plane is not supposed to crash after a minor failure like that
Always love your videos, Chloe!! Keep up the good work! :D
The title itself is terrifyingly. Thank you for the upload.
I've become addicted to this channel. Since there's no chance I'll ever get on a plane, it doesn't scare me.
But you will get in a motor vehicle without giving it a second thought. 🤷♂️the most dangerous form of transportation on Earth.
For someone so judgemental your not too bright.
@@rapman5363 In their defence, I think fear of flying (something I have myself) is an example of survivor bias. I hope I'm using that term correctly. The idea being that, we often only hear of air related accidents (or almost accidents) and not all of the flights that get from point A to point B just fine every day. So, survivor bias makes it seem like (and yes, I know it's an ironic term in this context) accidents happen all of the time.
Yes, we hear of car crashes, but chances are, we drive or are a passenger in a car on a regular basis and think nothing of it unless we're in accident, near miss or witness one. We don't hear about all of the accidents that happen every day, so we end up with a biased view of the differences in airplane vs car safety.
You're never going to travel? Damn that sucks man
@@rapman5363 you're* For someone so judgemental, you're not too bright.
I feel comforted by this channel because it shows EVERY SINGLE THING that will never happen again, because (since this crash) redundancy after redundancy and training after training has been done to prevent it. On top of that, these stories are shared between pilots again and again. Everyone wants to go home. No one wants to be that legendary idiot who causes things to go wrong.
Another great video, Chloe! Keep up the good work!
Its crazy to think I started with your smaller channel first before this one. I watch both now and its amazing to see you grow in so many ways. Keep up the good work.
If I had to ask for one story, it would be of Arrow Air Flight 1285R, a rather devastating crash and worst one in Newfoundland and Canada
I love this channel, my favourite channel the last few months
Best flight disaster channel on RUclips by far ! Watching from Ireland 🇮🇪
Certainly in my top 13
@@PetraKann 13 is my lucky number
Irishman,Tramore watching from here in Svendborg,Denmark.
@@thomastully5940 hello fellow Irishman ! I'm from Derry 🇮🇪
great video, as always!
great vid Chloe!
It is actually my birthday today. Thank you for the birthday present, Chloe. :)
Congrats on 100k!
moving can he a heck of a thing!
gl on that, keep us updated!
8:49 'extreme gravitational forces.' While in aviation these forces do use the term 'g-forces,' with the 'g' derived from the word 'gravity' it is incorrect to call them gravitational forces. Gravity remains the same near the surface of the Earth. The feeling of 'g-forces' arises from increased acceleration instead. As an example when you are speeding up to merge onto a highway you get the feeling as if 'gravity' is somehow a bit behind you as if you were climbing up a steep slope when in reality it is actually due to your acceleration that there is an extra push on you from the back of your seat instead of just below you.
There's a wreckage-photo on Wikipedia.
Looks like the largest debris was about shoebox-side.
That must've been one VIOLENT impact.
They were just few seconds more from the speed of sounds.
You’re awesome, Chloe. Thank you for teaching me so much about aviation and obliging my curiosity.
Best air channel on the Tube.
It amazes me how inept these so called professional pilots are in these case studies.
When I was getting my PPL we had to briefly cover instrument flying and some night flying. Included in that was partial panel flying. I couldn't be signed off to solo until I could prove that I could fly partial panel, and recover from unusual attitudes using only instruments.
I find it incredible that a multi thousand hour jet jockey would, when faced with an indicated pitch anomaly, wouldn't glance at the other instruments before taking action.
Pitch up: airspeed decreases, vertical speed would show a climb, altimeter would increase. It takes one to two seconds to glance at these instruments on an old steam gauge panel, and even less on a modern glass display.
Then, when confronted with increasing airspeed, decreasing altitude and a VSI pointing down, to continue forcing the nose down.
Its mind boggling.
There might as well have been a brick wall between these 2 pilots.
All it would've taken was:
Capt: hey you seeing this!?
F/O : no??
The flight data for this said the plane would have experienced only 0.3G in the initial descend that the captain commanded. That's something one can feel, so you have to be dead tired or otherwise impaired not to notice going almost completely weightless. There was something physical going on.
Great video as always, Chloe. You deserve all the subscribers you get.
If I could make a suggestion, though? Maybe put your highest tier patrons first on the list so people who click away before the video is over have their names get seen sooner. Then have the next list be the next tier down, etc. It's a small thing but I think your more generous patrons would appreciate it.
Could you do more CRJ in future?
I never saw anyone covering the crash of Belavia Flight 1834
Congrats on getting verified!!!
Have a safe weekend folks ❤️
Thanks! You too 🤗
You are best youtuber ever keep us contend.
The important point was missed that there’s 3 sources of attitude information in passenger jets, the standby ADI or ISIS. If weird indications are observed, glance at all 3 - best 2/3 wins..
One thing nobody talks about: I can't help wondering what effect the sudden pitch-down had on the first-officer (copilot). The captain apparently didn't explain himself before pushing the yoke forward. It would have been extremely disorienting...particularly if he hit his head against the overhead panel! (Most pilots don't cruise with their shoulder straps on.)
Combine that with this: the CRJ-200 has a relatively small horizontal stabilizer and elevators. Once the pitch attitude goes beyond 60⁰ nose down and the speed begins to increase, it can take a ridiculous amount of drag and altitude to recover.
In short, I suspect there was no CRM from the moment the captain acted suddenly and independently, basically putting his copilot out of commission, at least figuratively.
To make matters worse, imagine you are the captain who was briefed about Air France Flight 440 and now you glance at the altitude indicator and realize you are losing altitude, even though you are pitching down as hard as you can, and cause your artificial horizon is still showing you pitching up into the blue, you think you are losing altitude because you have entered an aerodynamic stall, so you fight your instinct to pitch up knowing it will make the stall only worse and you continue to pitch down. But the speed indicator and the lack of stall alarm should have removed any doubts even if you were too incompetent to communicate with your copilot and cross check your instruments.
So this case *seems* like primary pilot overreacted and should have corroborated with his copilot before pitching the plane downward, but I don't have any experience with piloting. Anyone know how much time the pilot would have to correct a perceived dive? If the instrument had been accurate, would he have had time to check with his copilot before taking action?
Not a pilot, but from so many disasters I've seen here, I totally understand why the captain immediately pushed forward on the controls because a stall can be catostrophic. However, I'm curious why planes don't have warnings indicating if instruments are giving opposite readings because that would tip the pilots off that someone's instruments are faulty.
The first officer definitely should’ve at least tried to warn the captain that the instruments were conflicting, and the captain should not have started pitching down with no communication
@@EvanAviator at this speed stall will be deadly. So blaming the captain is useless. It was a bad situation
Thanks
Simple crosscheck with FO display and also altitude and speed check. If you are pitching up and altitude and speed does not change, that smells fishy. After you drop the controls, speed begin to rise and altitude is dropping. Like what the hell is this case. Even newbie pilot should know after one second that what he did was wrong.
But wouldn't the pilot feel a sharp increase in G Forces if his plane was suddenly going up so rapidly?
Vestibular system in humans can’t work “properly” without eyes. If you can’t see you very quickly lose ability to tell which way is up or down. Many aircraft accidents have happened due to this. Pilots thinking they are turning one way when they are in fact going straight or vice versa. Inner ear basically tricks you no matter what gravity does in clouds or dark.
Mentour Pilot has an entire video on n why your internal gravity experience is plain wrong and not helpful during instrument flying. That’s why this error is so dangerous the displays is the only truth to pilots.
More specifically. You primarily experience G-forces during turns. Velocity doesn’t feel much. Continuous acceleration downward would primarily tell you that you are accelerating “forward”. The pilots would not feel they are going down or approaching supersonic. So maybe the lack of g-forces during the indicated pitch up would have been a hint, but if the pilot missed that first hint, the rest of the events would have felt largely consistent with what he was doing with his stick.
@@randomgeocacher Ah good. saved me mentioning the Mentour video
Its called "cross referencing" - if ADI shows climb, then "Rate of climb/descent" gyro will show that it is in a climb.
Altitude will also increase. Should be 3 ADIs on board, one for each pilot and at least another smaller back up. This is unforgivable!
I have experienced a spiral dive in heavy cloud - pulling back just makes things worse - speed increasing rapidly - altimeter unwinding so fast, it is a blur - wanting to quit but no one to help......"Power back to idle to reduce rate of descent; roll wings level using ADI; PULL hard and hope...." Alive! The most wonderful feeling! CAVU skies to all aviators.
Yet another case of a faulty attitude indicator leading to a crash, as a passenger I can only hope most commercial pilots are able to handle this type of situation.
Thank goodness there were no other people on board and no one was at the point of impact.
Seems like a simple tweak to alert both pilots when their flight displays differ significantly. This could have saved this aircraft.
standing up from the captains seat also. no way you can stand up when you in a dive.......
Let’s go DB! Big DB!
It's easy to understand why these two pilots crashed their plane. Both spoke English as their second language, neither spoke the other's native language. At times of sudden surprise leading to extreme stress their rudimentary use of English vanished from their ability to communicate. Neither pilot was sufficiently trained in a loss of IRU-flight director situation. You can't have CRM if you can't communicate. Their fate was sealed before they took off for Tromso.
What is name of music who play at 5:11?
"NEVER SAY NEVER."
Maybe the Inertial reference unit of the captain side was send to it's manufacturer for repair but the final report was already published.
The FO didn't even ask the captain what he was doing?
Not many flying hours considering their ages.
Can you do more CRJ200 crash like Comair 5191
Rip Amen 🙏.
I've often wondered why planes don't have a simple, non-electric back up system for determining pitch and roll etc. A sealed transparent container half-filled with water or even a weighted line hanging from the 'rear view mirror' as it were, probably would have saved this flight.
Search "does a rock hanging from a string work in an airplane" for Flywire - Scott Purdue's video and you'll see that the plumb can point at the floor of the aircraft even while the aircraft is upside down or sideways.
Could it be that the faulty IRU was caused by a bitflip?
Surely the altimeter would have confirmed level flight where the altitude did not increase but remained steady ??
Hey I like your videos can you make more Rail Disasters videos
There will be more rail videos coming soon! :)
@@DisasterBreakdown cool cool
This is such a familiar accident. This has happened so many times, hasn't it?
Very poor CRM and adherence to SOP’s.
Cool
Can you do FedEx 14 and 80 or northwest airlines flight 85
Why not check the standby instruments?
Why not have a ball hanging from a thread from the cockpit ceiling and a white paint spot on the floor, where the ball should fall if plane completely level...
total incompetence from the pilots
Their warnings were retracted when they needed them the most! The pilots had yet to recieve their upset and recovery training. It's not fair to blame them. Pilots are trained to rely on their instruments without question!
Bloody hell!, if they were unsure take a look at your altimeter spinning down!……..schoolboy stuff!
Even with spacial disorientation, the co pilot should have stepped in. He saw that the PFD suggested it was level. The pilot reacted as expected but at the altitude they were at, it should have never become that serious and unrecoverable.
Problem was, the captain just pushed the nose down without verifying they were actually pitching up. When the co-pilot tried to figure out what was going on, the co-pilot's screen didn't show level flight any more. (iirc)
You should look into reducing the sibilance in your audio.
some of that comes from Chloe's natural way of speaking.
At less than a minute in, I guessed "computers". Pilots apparently have forgotten how to fly - or never learned.
Just a note,planes don’t have a “control wheel”. They have a control column.
Why would names be withheld? I do not understand that. Surely not privacy. It’s a public investigation into deaths and an accident.
there goes your mail
Why the hell didn’t the co pilot take over as nothing wrong with his instruments!!?
Cargo? Hey, where's my package? It hasn't arrived.
Why don't planes just have a gyroscope physically present in the cockpit where the pilots can see it?
Sounds like they weren't getting proper training.
Never trust electronics.
I just can't wrap my head around the fact that as a certified pilot, your first instinct of a redundant system isn't to cross check it with your CO-PILOT?? Instead your first instinct is to ram your plane into the ground ending your life?
That said I do believe this is the difference between being a qualified flyer vs someone who is taught to fly. I think that played a part in this? Maybe I'm wrong?
Some minor issues with subtitles again, it says plane, when you said aircreeaft and West air europe says uk is. I before a word a bit later
Bombardier airplanes proudly made here in Quebec, Canada
This whole incident sounds like like a Twilight Zone episode.
“the aircraft and themselves crashed…”. Isn’t the “and themselves” assumed? 🤔
Why don't they just hang a clear glass sphere half full of colored water from the cockpit ceiling. Old school indicator.
So, why don't they just hang a coin on a string from the roof of the cockpit?
They are always making excuses for the incompetence of these pilots? Low intelligence? Why didnt the captain check with the co pilot before totally diving the whole plane into the ground
(5:07) Additionally, those who _are not_ pilots probably don't realise that commercial pilots _never_ look at the altimeter _or_ the air speed indicator during flight, so it's _perfectly reasonable_ for the pilot to have no fucking idea whatsoever what the aircraft is doing.
(Where do they _get_ these numpty nuts from, to fly aeroplanes??)
Hard to watch due to poor quality audio
I'm not a fan of total automation, and I see no reason in history where computers can be trusted 100%. Whether that be systems, or 'autopilot' or 'autoland'. Strangely, given my opinion, there is one thing that I cannot fathom. If you are going to go to such technological lengths in auto-anything, and this is just my thought, why is there so system that equals switching auto-pilot off? If there is an obvious or check listed issue, a pilot will disconnect the auto-pilot, and fly the aircraft. So given how many times pilot error is a factor, and 'spacial disorientation', you would think there would be a system that takes a massive pilot error due to one system failure, and switches the pilot off? What I mean, is an emergency recover system, that in times like these, simply locks out all controls, and regains stable flight via the auto-pilot, then giving controls back to the pilots, once the aircraft is safe. Like I say this is just a thought, and if an aircraft can land itself, I am thinking that logically, this too should be possible surely? So why can't an aircraft 'save itself'. I honestly look forward to someone with far greater knowledge than me, giving reasons for this. It does make me scratch my head.
Airbus has something like that. Such a system just was not built into the CRJ
There are trade-offs in aviation. Like in the max-8 and other error scenarios, where bad automation kills the plane. But basically an accident / suicide prevention system if it works great but requires plane to understand non-normal events that is hard to train for. The future surely will be much better automated. In this case something just alerting upon the initial IRU / Display disagreement might have been enough to save them. Even better if there are multiple IRU or other collaborating data, a clever system could even have told the pilots which display most likely was wrong and shown a big warning about pilot screen showing bad data. Sadly the pilots got very little help from the systems here.
Research into AI detecting errors correctly might save a lot of future lives.
…Auto landing on supported airstrip is actually an super dumb system (that has been contributing cause of some accidents) just putting the plane down where a radio signal says, it’s like so much more basic than e.g. what we have in consumer drones that actually understand where they are landing (based on GPS and what not). So airplane automation currently actually is a lot dumber than I would have had suspect.
@@EvanAviator That's good to know. I can understand it's not the same as bringing down a stable aircraft to land on a runway, but I have just never heard it mentioned before you, and I thought it would be bonkers if it wasn't a major thought. Of course, I'm not just thinking of this kind of incident either, but of those who tragically die in suicide flights, or with hijackers. If controls were locked out, and the plane returned itself, then these times would be fewer and fewer suffered. It has made a massive difference since 9/11 to have thought of cockpit security, but controls security should come next. (Plus the video I'm about to watch about the crazy dude who just stole an aircraft and flew it with simulator knowledge only on mini air crash investigation)
Pilots would riot if you put in a system that would completely take control away from them but such a system does exist. Military planes like the F18 have it for situation where the pilot loses consciousness. If the plane is pointed at the ground and no input is detected from the pilot, the plane will level itself on its own.
@@celderian I wondered about that one, I would do the same if my car in 2027 suddenly decided I wasn't driving anymore
Extremely poor flight crew management. In fact non existing.
One thing I have learned from all these investigations. Never fly with a French pilot.
day 2 of asking Disaster Breakdown to cover the 1991 Union Square Derailment, 1995, Williamsburg Bridge Collision, and/or the 2020 Arson Attack at Cathedral Pkwy-110th Street
> day 2 of asking
just don't become one more obnoxious NYer ;)
Two pilots with minimum experience. One of them should have been more senior with at least 10000 hours.
CFIT