Sliding Tablesaw Purchase Considerations Part 4 Delivery Setup and Calibration
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- This video is an overview of delivery, setup and calibration of a sliding tablesaw. The 5 sided cut is demonstrated.
Five sided cut method : • Fine Tool Works MFT Be...
I'll preface this with my background. I was a commercial construction superintendent and built a lot of restaurants for about 25 years. I have experience receiving large freight and putting it inside buildings. Of course we usually had the right equipment like a forklift, but not always. Construction sites don't always have ideal conditions either. Think "rained for the last month and a foot of mud instead of pavement". Based on my experience I've never had large equipment delivered to my home shop by the freight company. I always have it held at the dock and pick it up with my trailer.
My first really heavy piece was an A3 31 at about 700 lbs. I was going to rent a "drop deck" trailer but at over $100 I decided to use my own trailer which is about 18" off the ground at the most. I don't have a long ramp so I rigged one up with plywood and used 3/4" pipe (robbed from bar clamps) to get the pallet off the trailer right into the garage door of my shop. Rather than fool with building a ramp and getting a pallet jack I stuck a piece of 8/4 hard maple about 10" wide and 8' long through the slot and jacked it up on blocks on each end until the machine just cleared the pallet. I had my son steady the machine and pulled the pallet out from under it and lowered it to the ground removing one block at a time with crow bars.
Recently I got a KF700SP saw/shaper which is a 1600 lb crate and a 300 lb crate for the slider. I was going to get some help but it came in quicker than I expected and after I got home from the freight dock I decided I wasn't going to sit there and look at it on the trailer. The 300 lb crate wasn't a big deal as I could pick up one end and slide it off the top of the big crate and on to a couple of cheap Harbor Freight dollys. The runners on the big pallet were going across the short direction so they were the wrong way on my trailer to roll it on pipes. I put it up on pipes anyway with a crowbar and that gave it four small points of contact to slide on. Using the crow bar I inched it off the trailer. Once it got to the tipping point I put a couple of dollys under the corners and kept going. When it got to the end of the trailer I put the "back" corners on jack stands and pulled the trailer out from under it. Picture a 1600 lb machine sitting on two dollys at one end and two jack stands about 16" in the air on the other end. Scary, isn't it?
Then it was just a matter of jacking down the high end on to two more dollys and now it's mobile on my shop floor. I got it where I wanted it and then lowered it off the dollys using blocks and a crow bar until I had the pallet sitting on the floor. In the process I ruined two wheels on the dollys, but that's pretty cheap compared to renting a forklift or hiring riggers. It was probably quicker than building a proper ramp also. To get it off the pallet I put a dolly next to the pallet and using a 2x4 as a lever I worked one corner off the pallet on to the dolly. I kept going until I had it off the pallet and sitting on three dollys. I rolled it close to where I wanted it, put the factory wheel kit on it while it was in the air and then jacked it down off the dollys with blocks and the crow bar.
All told from sitting on the trailer in the driveway to sitting on it's own wheels in the shop was about four hours. That includes taking the crate apart and unpacking all the bits and pieces from around the machine. I wouldn't want to do it every day, but I'm glad I did it. I wasn't dependent on anybody else or their schedule. As long as you're careful and know what you're doing moving big stuff around isn't that difficult.
Hi Steve, just wanted to reach out to thank-you for the information and the inspiration. Have been watching for years now, and finally in a position to get my first slider. Hoping an all-terrain pallet jack is my answer on the transportation front, as I have to go through a city park with my incoming Felder to get it into my walkout basement. Looking forward to rewatching and relearning all your great slider techniques. Sincerely, Brian
Thanks Brian. Enjoy that new Felder. The XRoll system may very well be the smoothest sliding table on the market. Steve
Many thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge 👍🏻
To avoid waiting time I had my combo machine delivered to the rigging company. They called me when the truck delivered the machine, I checked it over and accepted the delivery. It was towards the end of the day so the delivery by the rigger was the next morning.
I did almost the same thing with the Martin delivery. Had the carrier contract my riggers so that they would all show up at the same time.
Hi Steve, thank you for you videos they are very helpful, I have woodworking machines in my garage and I need to reduce sound outside. I have noticed your garage door is insulated what have you used and does it work well.
Hi Alan. I used a 1" thick insulating board from a local lumberyard. It is styrofoam with silver mylar on one side and a thin clear plastic sheet on the other. I probably should have faced the mylar toward the outside for heat reflection though. It works well and my neighbors cannot hear the machinery running. You can hear machinery running standing outside if you are near the shop. Steve
Thanks Steve, Hopefully others can share their stories about delivery and commissioning. I know that is a big concern of mine. Mark
Shared mine above. Pics are in the Flickr link.
Hi Mark, I remember being very concerned about the first big machine delivery I had. Once you go through it, it isn't as intimidating as it seems. Steve
I was also very nervous/stressed about the delivery. I think 90% of it comes down to the driver. The guy I had was very nice and helpful. He could have just left everything in the cul-de-sac and made me deal with it myself, and been within his rights to do so.
Just be prepared to tip well for good service. You're getting thousands of dollars of equipment delivered to your house; a few 20s for the last mile won't hurt. :)
Every piece of equipment in my shop has been an adventure!
The Martin table saw was covered with a tarp and some heavy steel buckles. One of them came loose during the trip to the shop and for several hundred miles must have been flapping against the metal fence. Totally destroyed it with dents. 6mo later and I still do not have all the parts that were damaged replaced.
FedEx was the worst. They delivered a machine that was smashed, then when picking it up to have it exchanged, they put in on the lift gate too close to the truck and on the way up, damaged it even more. I ultimately got a brand new machine from the dealer.
Paid for delivery and installation / commissioning on the Martin, dealer rep gouged my shop floor with the fork lift getting the machine in my shop, hooked up the machine and did not know anything about the unit. I do not pay for commissioning any more.
Getting these heavy pieces of machinery off of the pallets has been a challenge. I've purchased an Engine Hoist from Harbor Freight and a Pallet Jack from ULine. I've used both of these to lift equipment off of pallets where you could not build a ramp for the jack. Additionally, for the equipment from Martin I've had to rent a fork lift, since they would not fit on a lift gate truck.
Wow Tony, what horrible experiences. Hopefully it will get resolved soon. Was it the cross-cut fence or rip fence that was destroyed? Steve
The rip fence gear assy had so many dents the rip fence would not travel to the end of of the table without jamming. There are some dents on the slider but not too bad. Took 4 months to get me a new one, and it was bent in shipping, my rip fence sits at a 10 deg angle and allows thin pieces of wood to slide under it. 2 months later and another new rip fence assy just arrived... Waiting on Martin to come install it. I will say they have been nice about it, just waiting on Al to schedule another trip over to install it.
Ouch. Hope you get up and running quickly. Steve
Tony Spotorno
My saw is about to arrive. Has cost me WAYYY MORE than expected. I "THINK" i have everything i need. Wish weather was warmer, -39 at the moment. Hope it warms up when i need to get that into my shop. Going to use pivot point system to get the saw and my laser into my shop. Need to find way to record this. No tri pod (Was stolen). Cameras i hid in washing machine.
Hi magic man - that is awesome. We were driving home from visiting family in KY and the high temp we drove though coming home was 74F. It is abnormally warm here and I have dandelions blooming in my yard and that is just wrong this time of year. What laser did you get? I have been researching but doubt that I can carve out room. Steve
I wish to purchase a small slider (no space) 50+ inches so that I may crosscut a sheet of melamine. I have two questions: 1. Do you have any experience with a 5 in 1 machine (ie. Minimax, Felder, Hammer? 2. Would you suggest a straight slider and go with a Martin? Thank you for your consideration.
John, my first slider was a Felder CF741 that I had for 3 years. While it was a great machine, full combo's are just not for me so I went back to separates except for the J/P. The decision to go with a combo largely depends on your available workspace and workflow that can vary widely from user to user. The biggest issue with the full combo for me was the weight of the shaper hood especially adding the Aigner fence plates. Getting the hood on/off the machine was hard on my back. The second issue was the power feeder. I had the pivot and big lift system but this was a 150 lb weight on the end of a long moment arm that you had to control throughout the swing. Not an easy task and I wasn't getting any younger. Hope this helps.
@@extremewoodworker Have you ever seen a Grizzly G0820, what do you think? By the way, you seem to be a very nice young man.
The leading edge is much wider,you got it backwards😁👍🏾
Steve, I have watched all of your series on sliding table saw considerations. Thank you for your efforts! We are going to buy our first sliding table saw for our business and we are in between the Felder K940S and the Martin T60C. If you were to buy your Martin now, would you choose the manual fence or the powered fence?
Hi Desiree. I think I would still opt for the manual fence on the Martin. The handwheel and lock is very convenient and is amazingly fast. Hope this helps. Steve
get an altendorf )
9:30 I thought if the gauge went from 0 to 10 then that is a positive reading. So isn't the table "toed-in" ?
What is the maximum or permissible error of the machine, in each cut?
Are you happy with the Martin manufacturing? I like what I see but looking at Felder as well. Why did you choose Martin?
Hi Richard. I am very happy with the Martin. I used to have a Felder CF741SP which was a great machine - the full combo just didn't work well for me with my workflow. When I decided to shop for separates, I shopped Felder, Martin, and Altendorf which has now been over 10 years ago. At the time, Felder had a lot of sales staff turnover and frankly did a poor job selling their product which I believe was primarily related to the sales persons lack of knowledge. The Altendorf salesman broke the sale primarily due to badmouthing his competition and trying to steer me toward a machine that did not fill my needs. The Altendorf was much more expensive than a similarly equipped Martin or Felder. At the time, the Felder and Martin were close in price but the Martin had more desirable features important to me. The Martin rep was from Germany and patiently answered all my questions going over every aspect of the machine including various configurations available. I also went back with other questions later on. That is why I went with Martin. Felder has changed a lot since that time, offers excellent after sale support, and they do make a good machine particularly with the X-Roll table. That said, I really believe the Martin is top of class and I have zero regrets purchasing it. Steve
I bought a Felder saw and Hammer 16" Jointer/Planer and had them delivered together. I ended up having a lift gate drop-off, and then to get it around to my tiny shop at the back of the house, I had to build a road using plywood. Then, just like you said here, I had to build a ramp using plywood. My Felder came pre-calibrated from the factory. The larger ones with a slider that comes as a separate piece require what you said. I did have to purchase a euro (narrow) pallet jack.
Pics (may be helpful for othes): www.flickr.com/photos/psychlist1972/albums/72157677010951444/page3
BTW, my driveway is close to 400', and has a curve and a hump in it, anything larger than a UPS truck can't get down it. The driver (I tipped him well) parked the truck up in the cul-de-sac and brought the saw and j/p all the way to the bottom of the driveway anyway, with only a little bit of help from me (getting the jack over the rise).
Thanks for sharing your experience Pete. My first slider was a Felder CF741SP with a 2.8m slider. As you said, the 300 lb sliding table came separate from the machine and had to be installed. IMO, this isn't ideal but it did provide the ability to use a lift gate for delivery whereas if it had been installed, it would have been a forklift job. Steve
Pete, thanks for your photos, looks like we have similar tastes in equipment. I have an A3-31 and a Minimax 16. Getting into my shop is going to be a completely different experience. it is only about 50' of flat paved driveway to the garage door on the front of my shop. I am going to order a KF700 and will have the 9 foot slider so I am concerned about the table install.
My MM-16 was my first "good" tool. I love it. Bought it as a show-special and picked it up at the woodworking show near Baltimore years back.
You can have a Felder tech commission it for you on-site, if you want.
The 9' slider is nice. Wish I had room for it. My slider fits in my shop with full throw with only 1" to spare on either end :D. I have the 80" (2050mm) table.
There are some accessories I think you'll want to get:
- At least one eccentric clamp. Two is better.
- If you think you'll end up using different thickness blades, dado, etc. I recommend getting the nice overhead arm guard instead of the one that clips on behind the blade. I'm going to order that. The clip-on one always seems to be in the way, and I can't use it with thicker blades that need a thicker riving knife. They come in different lengths, but the one for mine is part 424-100. (You can look up these products in the Felder e-shop online)
- If you want to do parallel rips without using the fence, get the parallel rip fence. (X-Roll rip fence) 430-149 and order it with the 212PZ metric/imperial tape (you have to get that tape over phone/email as it's not in the e-shope)
- Felder has a really nice dado stack. It comes in two kits and will run you $1000. But if you want to do dadoes, just bite the bullet and get it. Teeth are carbide inserts. Part 03.0.034
- You may want an extension table for after the blade. If you have the room, better to build your own. If not, you can get a narrow cast iron extension. That's what I have.
- Build or buy the offcut deflector if you plan to cut small pieces. Part 420-260
- Build a Fritz and Franz jig if you plan to cut shorts.
- You can also order the pre-made zero clearance inserts if you want. For my saw, the part is 109FC, but they cost $75 each. You can make your own, but it's not quite as simple as a classic cabinet saw insert.
- Especially for the jointer, the Felder quick-connect elbows for dust collection are really good. Ran without one for a while, but the elbow made it all much easier, and it stays in place using friction.
Not sure where you're located (I'm in Maryland), but I've been dealing with Dale Doubet at the Felder office in Delaware. He invited me to the show room and walked me through the options. I almost got a K500 but then, when I got home, had him change it to a 700. It's just a better saw all around. Ask him (or someone else) about options for having someone else commission it. That was offered to me, but I never bothered to get a price on it.
My MM16 also came first. I go it because I did not want to wait for a Hammer.
I will check out the zero clearance inserts. My brother has a 3d printer and he makes throat plates for my MM16 maybe I can have him make some zero clearance inserts for the KF. I live in Oregon and work with Liz in Sacramento, I like her very much. I am going to try to get them to commission it but it is a 7 hour drive.
Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge. Have a blessed new year
Thank you... I was considering getting the cf741... Due to lack of work space. I thought that it would be a good choice. Does Martin make a 5 in 1 machine?
Martin does not make a 5 in 1 machine. Steve
@@extremewoodworker How do you compare Martin with Format. I have been thinking of buying Format 4 400 but now I am confused after seeing you using Martin. But there is a 10000$ price difference. Please advice.
@VSP Dental Could you be more specific on the confusion? For a major purchase such as this, it is really best to compare them first hand such as the IWF in Atlanta (this August) or the AWFS in Las Vegas (next year). That way you can see what the difference in price gets you and decide for yourself whether it is worth it. I really like Martin machines but the Format is no slouch either. I have a Format shaper and IMO it is not as beefy as the Martin construction (which is probably overbuilt). The Martin sliding table is much heavier than the Felder X-roll table. On the other hand, the Felder X-roll sliding table is very smooth and easier to move than the Martin sliding table. FWIW, I ended up with the Format shaper over my dream machine Martin shaper primarily due to the enormous difference in price. Hope this helps.
@@extremewoodworker Thank you for the reply. I guess I will wait for the IWF for sure. I am going to visit Martin in Charlotte because it is one hour drive from my place. I do have Felder 700 Saw and Shaper combination with I believe, the same slider that is there in Format machine so I should be able to compare few things with Martin. I have no doubt that Martin is the best out there in the market in terms of build quality. There is almost 700 to 800lb weight difference (as well as enormous price difference) between Format 400 and Martin T60C. I have watched your videos so many times that I can't stop dreaming of Martin. :) Thank you for your feedback.
Steve I really appreciate this video series. I'm considering a slider, looking at the Minimax SC4E. Anyone have experience with that unit?
Hi Steve. I don't have experience with that particular unit. I have seen but not used Sam Blasco's combo machine when I visited his shop when he was in Austin and it is really nice. Sam has a RUclips channel and has several videos showing how he uses his slider. I had a Minimax TS55i shaper that appears to have a similar slider although much shorter. I think overall, it is a solid unit although IMO is not quite as smooth as the Felder XRoll system. One nice thing about Minimax is that they usually come outfitted with accessories that are optional on other brands. I would contact Sam for his straight shooting advice on that model. Hope this helps. Steve
@@extremewoodworker Thanks Steve, I have already been in contact with Sam, nice guy for sure.
Steve I have pulled the trigger on a Felder K700s, 9’ slide with 4hp single phase motor. Should be all I will ever need. They have it in stock and should arrive in a couple weeks!!!
Awesome! I think you will be happy with that model. The fact that you don't have to wait 3-4 months is also amazing. Enjoy.
@@extremewoodworker Steve my Felder saw came in last Monday. Took me a couple days to get it setup and still tweaking with dust collection, clamps and Fritz and Franz jig. I can already say this unit is a real joy to use. Thanks for your videos on sliders.
Would you consider taking a phone to answer some questions?
My experience with heavy machinery.
Earlier this year I purchased a 700 lb planer from Grizzly. My home is on a steep hill, concrete driveway, and the machine only needed to be placed just inside the garage.
I called Grizzly and they said "NO". Reasons:
1. Freight carriers will not go up a steep hill and/or concrete driveways for insurance purposes.
2. Freight carriers will ONLY drop off (IF you pay extra for a lift-gate) the pallet on the street. NOT on the driveway.
So I was heart broken. I am 85 and NO way to do it. Then I had an idea. I would go to the UPS Freight depot and see if they can make an exception. To my surprise their "dock supervisor" could not have been more accommodating. She said, "We WILL get that heavy machinery IN your garage. We will NOT put in your shop. We will order a smaller truck with Lift-gate and we WILL get that machine just inside your garage. UPS wants to please our customers. We WILL get that machine IN your garage". She gave me her name and phone number. She could not have been better.
That was perfect for me. Because I would un-crate it and put the wheels on it and simply ROLL it into my shop at the back of my garage. No problems I thought. Was I ever wrong.
UPS sent two different trailers out to my address. The first driver was furious and said, "we will NOT drive up that driveway. Our union does NOT allow that!" So I had him call his depot. They were on the phone for a long time; with him screaming into the phone. Finally he said, "We are taking the machine back to the depot. And they will deliver it tomorrow with a smaller truck and lift-gate; and put it just inside your garage".
It took them two weeks to show up; and then only after I had raised sand with them and talked to 4 different people. The loading dock supervisor was not available during this time.
When they arrived, the EXACT same thing happened. The second driver was furious and echoed the other driver to the letter. He was so mad on the phone with the Depot he was like crazy!
Finally after almost an hour, he walked over to me and said, "Mr Dee, do you mind if we walk next door where they are building that new house; and maybe they might help us?" I said let's do it. Lo and behold , 3 construction workers were like angels. They took that pallet and manhandled it into a small PU truck from the trailer. IN less than 5 minutes they had that thing in my garage as the UPS driver looked on in disbelief.
A blessing beyond relief. Praise Jesus for them. And to hell with UPS.
For whatever it's worth.
Hi Pat, I am glad it worked out for you. I have about a 4 degree grade for about 75 feet to my shop and the last 8 feet gets to a 10 degree grade. Anything over about 800 lbs gets to be a challenge with the last leg. I have been fortunate and most of the drivers have been outstanding and worked with me to get it in the shop. At times, I had to get the tractor out and give assistance by pushing on the pallet to get the machine in the shop. I only had one instance where the driver refused which is within their rights. I have a brother who is a truck driver and FWIW, injuries are fairly common. He broke his back just tarping a load on one occasion that left him idle for months. Steve
Good report, I will avoid UPS! I plan to talk to the freight company at the depot before committing to which company to use. If they balk I may put in on a trailer and bring it home myself.