I'm still amazed at how great Rook is. He came in with the biggest deck stacked against him: Replacing both Gwen and Kevin as Ben's partner, while having a typical "Fish out of Water" sort of dynamic and a speech pattern to match it. Yet somehow he ended up being so damn likable and amazing.
@@gamechanger8908 Agreed. The only positive thing about Kai and Ben's ship is that Kai Ego checks Ben. Which could actually be good for Ben. Because we all know he needs someone to keep his attitude in check and not a submissive waifu.
Forcing two characters together because of “Destiny” is honestly pretty disgusting because it removes their agency. They’re not getting together out of love but because Fate demands it. This is why I can respect Green Lantern in Justice League. He admits he loves Hawk Girl but refuses to be a puppet of fate. The writers of Omniverse would probably choose to have him dump Vixen just because Hawkgirl x Green Lantern was their OTP. The problem with Kai was definitely her writing. If they just gave her more episodes and had Ben break up with Julie in a respectful way, it would have been fine. Instead the writers were basically throwing her at Ben. If I was writing the time travel episode, the lesson would be that you can’t force people to love each other. Rewrite: The child from the future realizes someone has been messing with the timeline, and that change is threatening their existence, so he needs to go back to make sure his parents get together. He’s not subtle with it, trying to force them together at every turn. That’s his mistake. Trying to force them together actually makes them hate each other even more than before, driving them apart. The child’s lesson is that he has to let things happen naturally. He can help them subtly, but he can’t just force them to love each other. Perhaps there is a minor villain Ben and Kai are fighting when their son goes back in time. He idiotically gets captured by that guy, so Ben and Kai have to save him. That would have been so sweet! Imagine two characters falling in love after heroically saving someone, not realizing the person they saved is their future child time traveling back to see them. The key to making an episode like that work is making sure the character’s don’t know it’s their child at the time. If they know, it makes the whole thing feel forced. It’d add an extra layer of intrigue if the future versions eventually realized it was their son and actually planned this whole thing out to keep the timeline as is. This could have been a great concept.
Not to mention the whole concept of destiny doesnt work because we have seen multiple futures of ben 10k and this whole kai must be the one is introduced in omniverse. The season whose main premise is alternate universes
It's not about romance, but it reminds me of how in Avengers Infinity War and Endgame Dr. Strange says there's only one universe where they win. Despite there being points where it seems like the heroes could've done things slightly different and won in a different way said methods won't work because the script said so. It feels like a way of denouncing any sort of theories or questions about character choices without having to actually think up a proper answer for why things either do or do not work. I'm sure other films and shows have done this, and I'm sure there's a name for it, but the Avengers example was just the most immediate one I thought of. Why do Ben and Kai get together? Because it's destiny. Any instance where it seems like things shouldn't work won't have an effect because the conclusion is inevitable. So it doesn't matter how unbelievable some of the things are since it's all pre-written and nothing can change.
@@flarestorm9417 One series that comes to mind that fucks it up equally as bad is Star vs The Forces of Evil because it forcibly makes Starco the endgame from the first season.
@@flarestorm9417 I'd like to disagree with the concept of fate in avengers. Recall that Dr Strange was trying to see how to beat Thanos, and Thanos could arrive at any time to fight Tony's side of heroes. So that meant that they had not much time to prepare, I believe that Dr Strange only managed to see 1 alternate universe within that limited time, but could have seen more where they won if he had more time. I believe they wrote that part in, to just show how hopeless it is to fight Thanos to give the heroes a taste of despair and also tension.
You know what would have actually made this interesting? Is if Kenny had arrived from a different timeline and kept pushing Ben and Kai together. But then he saw that Gwen and Kevin were together and freaked out while trying to tear them apart because Kevin is still evil in his timeline. Would have been a great commentary on how not everything is set in stone when multiple universes exist and time travel is common.
Bruhh that would have been super cool. Because the Kevin from Kenny's timeline still IS evil, and we'd get to see him realise Devlin doesn't exist or has a different mother in Omniverse timeline
They could’ve put Ben with anyone, yet they chose the girl who sees him as more of a pet than a love interest. I would’ve preferred it to be ester. She just liked ben in general as opposed to some of his other love interest. Julie moved on because of ben’s neglect and the others wanted Ben to transform into a different species. I feel like Ben and ester would’ve worked just fine+the fact that she’s an alien
I still think that Julie was the best love interest. The way that they got rid of her was ridiculous. They wanted to get rid of her to shoehorn another character they liked instead. They didnt even do it properly, it was lazy and done as a one off gag. Poor writing in that regard.
@@Swordkiller55623 I'll give you that, he did neglect her a bit I think. Its kinda hazy for me. But if they were gonna get rid of her they could have done it in a more meaningful way
What doesn’t help is the guy that was behind Omniverse had a mindset of “Screw canon, I’m in control”. Basically writing out, retconning and recreating anything he didn’t personally like.
@@yuishishido8780 exactly I knew something was wrong when Ben 10 and Alien force said 6 years ago then it restarted with omniverse saying 5 years later then being aliens we never had saw before nor saw him use it anything and the bunch of call backs to the old Ben 10
Wasn't Kai's debuting episode about how childhood crushes don't always work. And then, she just became endgame material out of nowhere because of some destiny bullshit.
Finally some good logic.Somehow omniverse fans will say that bringing kai and putting her with ben is somehow going back to the roots of the classic series 😂
Kai could've worked if she were in the show from the beginning and if the writers made her liking Ben's aliens more than him a flaw that she needed to overcome. Caring more about a person's power more than them is one of the most obvious flaws with any non-powered/human love interest in a superhero story. What makes love interests like Lois Land and Selina Kyle (Catwoman) great is they've shown to care about both sides of their partners. You can't just love parts of a person; it's all or nothing. Kai should've been eager to go on adventures with Ben to see his aliens in action and shower him with affection at every opportunity. Ben could like it at first because of his immaturity ego, but then he could try to seek comfort from Kai due to problems in his personal life, only for Kai to be despondent and apathetic. Ben could then reject Kai when she tries to kiss him in his alien form and call her out on her shallow fangirl bs. Kai could argue that it shouldn't be a big deal since being a superhero is more important than whatever is going on in his personal life. This could also serve as commentary for how men's and boy's health and well-being aren't taken as seriously as they should. Throughout the show, Kai could see aspects of Ben the person that she likes and grow to be more considerate of his humanity. As Ben slowly matures and grows closer to Kai, only then can Ben 10,000 be set and the future be secure. Basically, I would've written Ben and Kai to be equally flawed in their own way and not be able to form a relationship until they came to terms with their flaws and took action to improve upon them. I never liked stories where a relationship fixes people's flaws. It both puts way too much stock in the concept of relationships and can cause people to be stuck in unfulfilling/toxic relationships. When you add gender dynamics, it also plays into the trope of it takes a good woman to fix a broken man. People aren't houses. A house doesn't argue, avoid being fixed, or go behind your back to undo all the work you put into it. People shouldn't be in a relationship to fix their flaws. They need to fix themselves first and then get into a relationship. When also adding that Ben and Kai are teenagers, it makes even more sense that they can't form a proper, serious, long-lasting relationship until they're both adults.
Whenever I watch any media with Lois Lane in it. It always boils down that she is only interested on Superman and not Clark Kent and even she is interested on Clark Kent, she would cheat on him with Superman (sheesh reminds me of MJ in the Tobey Maguire's Spiderman trilogy). As for Selina Kyle, well I can't blame for fcking Batman and Bruce Wayne bc both are a win(one is a badass mtherfcker and the other is a playboy billionaire) and she's a criminal so her cheating on Batman for Bruce and vice versa isn't far fetch. Just a rant, but I do think No Way Home implied that Andrew Garfield's Spiderman destiny has been set that he should be with an MJ and that his relationship with Gwen Stacy was never meant to work out but atleast they never mentioned that out loud (and hopefully won't when TASM 3 does get release). It would have been interesting to see that Ben sees his future Ben 10k being married with WHILE our Ben is dating someone else like Julie, now that would be an interesting conflict.
😎 Dude Great Analysis, Your idea Could be a Good Fanfiction Material (or a Fan Comic), But Too bad it just makes you wanted more from the Actual Series. Oh well This a Multiverse /Omniverse Type of Story 😢
Ester had far better character development in the Omniverse and honestly, I wouldn't actually mind an alien wife for Ben. Like how Max had Verdona. It would have been pretty cool.
Kevin: "Gwen, you've got to treat a car like you treat a woman." Gwen: "Go on? 🤨" Kevin: "😐😕... No... I sense I've made a mistake of some kind..." Me: Nice save.
To anyone who wants to know why Omniverse changed Kevin's backstory, and replaced Juli with Kai? They were trying to set things back to the original plan set by their dead co-worker.. an honorable thought, but terrible execution force by time restraints by corporate.
Give Julie and Ben credit. Even with your video explaining rather well why the ship didn’t work and the failures of Julie as a character. But at least there was an attempt to build a relationship without completely forgetting it with them at least ending uaf on a somewhat happy note. So to have kai, a character that has like ten episodes to her name get replaced when the only somewhat developed Ben relationship ends off screen and Kai just really does feel forced specially given her negative light in her one os appearance.
I wish Ben and Julie had more chemistry in the show like in alien force season 1 and 2 it was acceptable but they should’ve given more of a push to their relationship in season 3 and have Julie be part of their team also have an episode where it’s just Ben and Julie going out alone together on a trip to spend time with each other and open up more to one another that would’ve been great and have Julie ask Ben where he first go the omnitrix and all that.
This is the most horrendous couple in the entire SHOW, it was a shame that the two of them ended up together, putting Ben and Kai together was terrible, wow, Kai and Ben and forced and boring, in fact it was the most boring thing of the entire BEN10 show. I would prefer that Ben ended up with the frog princess ha Attea or the giant red princess ha Looma, it would be INFINITELY better than with KAI, she is simply UNSUPPORTABLE, until today I don’t believe Ben married Kai, that was a MISTAKE!
If they made Kai a recurring character in the latter half of Omniverse and we saw more on-screen character/relationship development, I think Kai would be a better character or even better love interest of Ben’s. Maybe Ben could point out that she only cares for his transformations, and that can lead to her actually getting to know Ben as a person. I hate that a lot of the development is implied to have happened off-screen.
I used to like this ship... when I was 10 until I rewatched Omniverse years later and the thing is she's not even a regular character. She just re-occurs time to time like "hey remember this character? , Remember we destroyed relationship's for him to end up with her?" the next time we see her again she's not really a major character she just plays a minor role they really should have kept him with Ester to be honest (but she's too good for him though but it could have also gone somewhere)
@Will N That would be cool, except they don't devote a lot of time to her. Sure, Kevin was originally only in a couple episodes but he became more prominent a member of the cast. And the transition wasn't rushed needlessly. So, like, imagine if in one of the prior "Shows" we got Kai's reappearance. Then her intro in "Omniverse" was edited so she's not coming off as a complete bitch. And then she appears every two or three episodes, with either Julie or Ester still present.
And on that note, do Ben and Kai ever even go on an actual date? I know they don't spend much time on dates in any Ben 10 show, but Julie had at least one date with Ben, plus a few times where she went out with Ben and/or Gwen and Kevin somewhere without superhero business being the motivation. They don't really take the time to develop Ben and Kai as a couple that do couple things together, which is a majorly missed opportunity. It's not what I look for in a superhero show, but it would've made Ben X Kai more believable.
The forcing of BenKai reminds me of Adrinette (Adrien + Marinette from Miraculous Ladybug). Adrinette is also a perfect example of how forcing the ship and literally mentioning that "they are meant to be together" not once, but at least five times by each different character makes me hate the ship. It's never going anywhere, especially how Marinette is still a stalker 5 seasons in and how Adrien is still oblivious about her. Hell, Lukanette (Luka + Marinette) and Adrigami (Adrien + Kagami) don't have much screen time but have far, far better chemistry and development than Adrienette ever has. But NO! They broke the two pairs so that Adrienette CAN happen not because of how bad it is, but because IT IS FATE and they are MEANT TO BE TOGETHER. I hate such ships. Writers really need to stop this trope of "fate."
Not gonna lie the 2D version of miraculous seemed like something I wouldve checked out, but I've never bothered watching the actual show. I did watch people draw character redesigns and do reviews, it seemed like a lot of wasted potential.
The crazy thing about this whole thing is, Ken has nothing to worry about. In the series, when Ben meets a future version of himself, his future is no longer that future, and that future becomes an alternate timeline that still exists just no longer connected to the prime timeline. Everything in Ken’s timeline still happens, so there was no reason for him to put them together, and Ben isn’t even going to have the same future taking the other 2 Ben 10,000’s from before Omniverse into consideration.
Because the writes forgot that each time Ben goes back in time, it creates a new timeline. I'd like it better if Ken never existed TBH, that way Ben and Kai can never be a thing.
One of the perfect examples of “Even if fans don’t like her, let’s overexpose her up to the moon!” situations like this one. (Holy shit, y’all are insane and I love y’all, it’s been 2 days! But yeah, Kai isn’t *that* overexposed, but when the show keeps HAMMERING this ship into peoples faces like this, it kind of fits??)
How is four episodes over exposure? Really more screen time would have helped Kai. Well and better writing. The pairing was rushed and forced, felt unnatural and shoved in our face. More like with Kai could have made it better, as that would have given it more time to develop and us more time to breathe. That and remove the whole Spanner and "it's destiny" crap.
I honestly would have preferred that over the stupid orgy implications, only to have him end up with the worst girl in series. I mean, this girl first wanted to keep him as a pet!
Alternate dimensions, parallel universes, multiple timelines and at least 4 universal resets, but this is the ONE GIRL Ben is supposed/allowed to be with
It reminds me of the CW version of the Flash where Iris learns of a future (just a future because anything done in the present can cause it to change) and one (exactly one) alternate earth where her and Barry are together and she is utterly convinced that they’re “meant to be together”.
@@JayRedGear I feel like that's probably because Peter and Mary were meant to be endgame in the comics, but then really dumb writers decided to end their marriage with a literal deal with the devil rather than simply making the two go through a divorce.
As Malcolm Reed says in Star Trek Enterprise: “If you had a book from the future telling you who you end up with, and you find this person, did you marry them for love or because the book told you to?”
the Kevin line you used at the end is always my favorite moment. he realized he did something wrong... but isn't sure what... and is smart enough to zip it. while making one of the funniest lines in the show. perfection
I wasn't even a big fan of Ben/Julie because I felt it was introduced far too quickly, but at least Julie liked him for who he was, with his superpowers being a bonus. I had to check who Kai even was, and when I realized I was... outraged. In her debut episode she literally acts like a chaser. She only cares about Ben because he's an alien, even though the experience is clearly distressing to him on some level, and immediately loses interest when he goes back to normal.
In the original series, Gwen even calls her out on her bs. But apparently, Kai is still allowed to do the same thing as a teenager, and it's supposed to be an endearing trait. Who is going to like a character like that?
This is the most horrendous couple in the entire SHOW, it was a shame that the two of them ended up together, putting Ben and Kai together was terrible, wow, Kai and Ben and forced and boring, in fact it was the most boring thing of the entire BEN10 show. I would prefer that Ben ended up with the frog princess ha Attea or the giant red princess ha Looma, it would be INFINITELY better than with KAI, she is simply UNSUPPORTABLE, until today I don’t believe Ben married Kai, that was a MISTAKE!
(kinda late reply...) I don't think bickering itself is "hot" lol but I do think bickering can add to a ship. ik many ppl would disagree but for some ppl they want to hide their feelings for someone so they overreact negatively to them. I think it works when it's obviously coverup for their true feelings rather than genuine dislike of each other
@@tiablue9106. This misconception primarily comes from the pessimistic and nihilistic narrow minded assumption, that every aspect of real life is inherently miserable, thus"realistic"writing aims to reflect it! That's why majority of mainstream romantic relationships are portrayed as constant snarling, because people think a happy and stable relationship only exist in optimistic and childish fairy tails like cinderella(where she's emotionally and sometimes physically abused, until meeting a nice guy who also happens to be rich who helped her out), since appearently people aren't altruistic, especially the one percent!🙄😒
Idk if yall have ever been in a relationship, especially a long good relationship but, bickering is the reason why the saying is “yall argue like an old married couple” regardless if you feel it’s hot or not, it’s kinda realistic
Bickering only works when the characters are already married, because then you know that they love each other and the discussion is more a inconvenience than anything serious
@@TLMS_SHADOW She has her moments, like keeping Ben in check, but dehumanizing the guy for some weird fetish like having Blitzwolfer as his contact pic just feels wrong.
The sad part is, Kai’s character could have also worked for Ben. Sure, it has been established that Ben sees value in himself, but the show could have focused on him using his aliens a lot, mainly seeing it as his only real option when things get heavy. With Kai being far more interested in his aliens, it would start to dawn on Ben that that he is finding more value in his aliens than he does in himself, so it would give him a new drive to start taking things seriously and focus on his own growth as a human who is just as capable, perhaps even more so, than his aliens, which he could come to realize that they are nothing without him as they are just tools, not alternate versions of himself, which in turn would have Kai start seeing value in Ben by seeing how capable he is without the Omnitrix. They had something there, but they lost it before production. Such a sad fate, indeed.
If anything Ben should have been the one way more interested in aliens, hence all his alien GFs. Settling for a human makes no sense outside of a non-adoption perspective.
@@atozreaction116 Nah, he has to settle for a human kid because it's too interesting for him to have an alien kid that uses the watch to turn human as one of their aliens.
Not only do ships like this not work when the explanation is "because fate says so," but it also continues the annoying and kinda damaging trend that people arguing and bickering is actually a sign that they like each other. Nothing Ben and Kai argue about feels romantic, it feels petty. At least Julie had positive interactions with him when he wasn't being the worst and there was an attempt to build a relationship with her. With Kai, it's just "they're destined to be together and they argue so that must mean that they're in love."
Yes….so many people Mis-Write Friends to Lovers. Friends to lovers requires some signs that people actually care about each other under it all. It’s not just fighting = love. Especially when the characters are as old as Kai and Ben. That logic maybe works for like an 8 year old on the playground. Not someone Ben’s age.
I like a little snarky banter between an eventual couple, but the difference between it being bad and it being good is having them be playful and they have to get along more than they don't or else it looks lie the Boomer "I hate my wife" gag in it's pre-marriage phase. I can like a touch of irritation at first followed by equal measure showing how compatible they are. Like Pride and Prejudice. Lizzie and Darcy end up together and had initial dislike but they saw aspects that they admired in each other. That's why the story's endured.
Not even just that she was forced, her personality is awful. She treated Ben like a dog when they were kids and never apologized for it. I know she was a kid but the fact that she hardly changed speaks volumes.
@@jknetwork6211 Unless you have been living under a rock you should know in cartoons girls/women can be awful and nobody will call them out on that but if a boy/man does the same he is bad. Basicaly double standards. So, her being awful is not a big thing that just means she is "strong willed" according to them.
Julie is the nice girl who wanted to make something genuine out of a relationship but kept being sabotaged by Ben’s awful personality, teaching us the basics of a neglectful boyfriend. Ester is the cool girl who paired the best with Ben by sharing his Likes, personality and is able to support him in his hero life but unfortunately the Wri- Fate had other ideas so she gave up and left a decent relationship, teaching us that our lives aren’t in our hands, destiny is unchangeable and we should all give up and accept the outcome because it’s too much work to fight. Kai is the poor child who never asked to be born, never had a chance to be her own person and only reason given by God for existing is to have babies with Ben, teaching us women are only their to have babies. You can really see the regression of Ben 10
Plus, we're not even factoring in the fact that this is all happening to both female aliens and women of colour. The latter having a deeply disturbing history of being sexualised or having abuse romanticized in media.
In a nutshell, I feel like Kai is really not *that* awful in hindsight (and I feel horrible for contributing to the Kai hatred as a kid). She is just sabotaged HORRIBLY by the writing in terms of her story presence and her personality. Edit: y’all do realize “far worse characters” meant characters with bad writing? Gotta love the anti Kai crowd. 😑
@@lilchristuten7568 when you look at her character from a neutral perspective…there are far worse characters than her out there. I’m not justifying her flaws, but I think that many people overexaggerate them to the point where it creates a version of Kai that doesn’t accurately reflects her canon self.
Writers must be on something for not going for the original love interest. You can't write cheating, harem bullshit, and then made a girl who showed up in two episodes with barely any "development" (Mind huge quotation as Julie's development is questionable) the final girl the MC will end up with. Shows could theoretically pull it off, but logically, doing too much is not good.
@@DoveJS nah, I think she’s capable of being a good ally of Ben or a friendly rival if she’s given a showcase of her backstory and her positive traits. Look at what happened to Ahsoka from Star Wars. She went from a hated character to one of the most beloved characters in Star Wars because the writers dedicated time to fixing the issues surrounding her and fleshed her out. It happened because the writers gave a damn. I think had Kai given the Ahsoka treatment, then she could’ve been *more.* Well…at least fanfiction is there to fix issues of the stuff we love. :)
Well based on Omniverse she seems to like every alien form except Ben's human form. Which uh... well, alien-human hybrids exist so it's not impossible to make it work. Though to take it seriously I don't think they literally meant it in a furry way. As a kid I didn't take that as being something sexual until, well, I learned furries exist.
@@flarestorm9417 yeah but most of Ben's aliens only really work in a sexual with well....other alien women of the same race. Like imagine ben hitting you from the back as heatblast or 4 arms.
@@joshuamanjarrez6321 Yeah to many questions like" how can a human woman hold a heatblast baby in her womb with out her burning alive?" Or "does 4 arms have 2 giant dicks if so how can a human woman even have it fit with out killing her or causing massive internal damage?", and let's not forget "who would want to bang these aliens in the frist place?" .
Imagine this entire situation but from Kai’s perspective. You are basically being told that you are going to marry and have kids with this guy you sort of like/dislike and you have no choice because fate said so. And just to make it worse, your future son shows up to emotionally blackmail you with the threat that they won’t exist unless you agree to give up any sense of autonomy over your own life. I can’t even begin to imagine how utterly frustrating that must be.
@@firefistace2024But if you do have to go back to prevent a catastrophe from happening or something, keep your mouth shut about certain people's fates unless it's essential to your mission in the past. Telling people about their awesome futures can be bad. If they know too much, it might not happen because they might louse it up trying to make it happen. Especially if it involves your future parents. It's not that they became your parents but it's HOW they become your parents. Fate says that they do but how.
I wouldn't be so annoyed at the Kai thing if it wasn't for the fact that their were so many other better options. Like there was Julie, Ester, they could've just had Ben be single, that was also an option. Or had just left who his wife was in the future ambiguous. Hell Area would've been better, atleast Atea is funny!
you are 100% correct about the multiverse thing Ken was NEVER at risk of not existing. professor paradox tells ups in the episode ben 10 thousand returns that when ben went to the future the first time he traveled "cross-time" which was to mean he when into the future only diagonally to an alternate future rather than his own immediate future so no matter what Ken should exist.
Honestly I always felt that Ben should have gotten with Esther cause they had chemistry especially in her introduction episode, Ben is shown to actually like being around her and went on a few dates with her and didn't act like a jackass to her during them. Hell even in the episode that brought back Julie in Omniverse she wasn't jealous or questioning Ben about her and when Looma showed up (another girl that had feelings for him) and tried to marry him. She helped him fight Looma off, then afterwards went on a date together at the end of the episode. I just feel that Ben was better off with her than Kai plus I can see Ben hooking up with a alien girl more than a human I mean Grandpa Max did it TWICE.
I think the reason she worked so well is because not only did she have a personality take could play of Ben's, but also because she actually had a whole life separate from him and the plot. Even if we don't see it that often just knowing it makes her feel like her own character and not just the "fill in the bank" love interest.
To be honest I'm conflicted between Julie and Esther... When I was a kid I'm more to Julie side and the time they spend together... Esther and Ben has a special bond and can work out. Just like you said I think Ben more suited with aliens girls because he spend most of his time with Aliens. We barely see the bond that supposed to be built between Kai and Ben making their relationship akward for me... Like there's less than 5 episode with her... How am I supposed to like her...
That’s what I thought then my thoughts were crushed when I saw the “time” episodes, I was like , “wth she was literally never seen for awhile, and this is what happens? Bull crap”
In my experience (as a woman,) whenever a guy says anything along the line of, "We're destined to be together." And especially when they bring in some kind of God or example like Romeo and Juliet, that sends up all the red flags and not want to take the chance going be found a week later in real bad shape.
I guess that mean you wouldn't like the Sailor Moon theme song then.... It translates to Moonlight destiny. But I agree with the Romeo and Juliet thing.
"No, I sense I made a mistake of some kind" was the best quote in this video if you ask me and it was only tangentially related to the main point of the video.
The thing is, it's fine to have a couple that bickers and fights (in my opinion). But writers sometimes seem to forget they need to show why the couple is in love despite that; the bickering isn't what MAKES them a couple.
@@thomasraines1396 yeah and I don't get why when 2 characters fight, other characters are like "aw young love"--unless they already know they like each other, it confuses me why arguing would make anyone assume so. it's possible but that wouldn't be my 1st thought
Even in canon it didn't make sense. They established a multiverse and Ben's future not being set in stone back in the OS, reinforced that with AF and even more explicitly in UA (with ultimate Ben and the forge of creation arc pulling the Ben from the RAT timeline to the present), and then Omniverse just goes all out with a whole time war with alternate timeline Bens. It makes absolutely no sense for "Spanner" to pull that shit, especially with a one off character who, at the very least, hasn't appeared in 8 years irl and 7 in the show. Ester should've been endgame too. Also her voice acting was pretty weak
Thank you! Ester may not have been around much but honestly feel like she was the sole love interest that worked for ben after Julie was gone. Likes Ben for Ben, wants to hang out with regular Ben, can find something to like in all his forms and can hold her own in a fight with him. Just imagine Omniverse with Ester as a constant companion that Ben actually interacted with instead of just a random appearance character.
@@DeprecatedSC From the random few episodes I saw there were a few with Ester and I really liked her so seeing this video feels awkward (I love story telling so I was hoping there'd be some more to it then just forcing another character and people conforming to fate). I didn't need to see them as a couple but watching this video did leave me wondering and less interested in watching through because if it feels forced and they don't subvert things it'll be really awkward watching through all that.
@@DeprecatedSC Exactly, Ester was a good replacement for Julie. Honestly Ben and Ester had better chemistry than him and Kai. Plus Ester had enough screen time to pull it off.
Even better thing why they were so good with chemistry the voice actor of Esther is literally married to the voice actor of Ben, that's why they had so much good chemistry together and I wish they kept that if these guys weren't such boneheads, like they were so good together they had excellent chemistry they played off each other, every single time that Ben wanted to go back to their date and it felt like Ben actually did care and she did too I love that they had that but what did they do they screwed it up because fate Destiny b*******.
Ken: Ben and Kai have to get together or I won't exist! Professor Paradox: well yes, but no, because cross time established literally in the previous series.
You know, I actually never hated Kai... I just wanted her to cool eff the down, it didn't help that Omniverse kept making the ONLY option and reminding you that. If it didn't take so long for them to not totally hate each other with bickering, then maybe the hate would be tempered... Or not, what am I saying. Did like her in the 10k future, too bad we didn't get more of that characterization.
To be honest, even though i never liked Kai very much even i still hated that they made her a forced love interest for Ben, forced canon shipping is just the worst well depending on the characters that is because there are some canon cartoon ships that weren't as forced and rushed as others. but those are just my thoughts.
Their interactions kinda look like a classic boomer relationship imo? They fight every time, but it's "sexual tension"; they're rude each other (and others around), but it's "their dynamic"...
I pretty much agree this pairing failed in many ways. For one, if really dwelling more on it, the couple would've divorced in the future and their child from the future tries to keep them together out of fear. Going into the past would greatly risk making things worse. This was explored by fan writers where forced relationships are often doomed to fail. Things need to progress naturally and be explored to see if one person wants to be with another. Not to mention how their chemistries clashed during the initial episodes when they were older all before this forced pairing episode. And the whole bit of liking one "persona" over the other makes things complicated for a relationship where the one person doesn't accept all of the other, only one part. Such a thing in a relationship ain't healthy at all.
You know. The real problem with Kai that Sarcastic only barley touched on that's rather in your face once you realize it? They were trying to make Kai into Gwen from the original Ben 10 series. They were trying to basically give her the exacct same character and dynamic with Ben that he and Gwen had. LIke it or not Ben X Gwen is THE most popular ship in the entire franchise and it's clear that's what they wanted to re-capture with Kai. Kai is basically meant to be the girl that checks ben's ego. Snarks with him. Argues with him and nags him when he's being...Ben. Which is EXACTLY what Gwen was in the OG series. But the problem is, they used the BAD parts of it. WHat worked so well about Ben and Gwen on the OG series was that they had just as many moments of caring for eachother, being worried for eachother, protective of eachother and showing they will go to hell and back for the other without hesitation if anyone dares threaten or insult them. It balanced the nagging and Ego checking and arguments with love and a strong bond. As the video said, Omniverse was SO obessed with trying to be OG Ben 10 again that it's clear the creators looked at hte most popular ship Aka Ben X Gwen and tried to re-create that dynamic to make Kai and Ben work. But it just made a much, much worse version of it as the creators took the BAD parts of that dynamic and pushed them onto Kai trying to make them work.
@@Markus2E5I6 Indeed. But the writing gives them tons of shipping moments and the like. Slow dancing scene in particualr. Although the dilaouge says one thing. Mulitple episodes have them in sitautions that much more imply a budding romantic relaitoship and closeness.
I said this on the Ben and Julie video but the biggest problem with Ben and Kai was the fact that she barely shows up in the series but the writers kept trying to force their relationship on us. It would've been easy to make her, Ben, and Rook the new trio or have her just be more recurring just in general but I think she shows up in like six episodes in Omniverse and from that we're supposed to believe her and Ben are soulmates or something. Hell Ester wasn't around that much either but I still rooted for her and Ben more(maybe it was because the VAs are married)
Cool VA detail would've been cool if it went down that way instead, they could've also thrown things around at some point perhaps (wrong timeline or Ben his son going villain over it (I haven't seen the show fully but based on this video's complaints I make these assumptions)).
Ben and Ester should've been endgame. Eunice would also be interesting but Ester is just overall better. But yeah, the crew was never good at writing Ben's love life.
Ester works cause you know, the actually wrote her like a functioning starting relationship interest. If they'd made her a constant throughout the series instead of random appearances I honestly feel like she would be someone no one would even question being Ben's endgame interest.
At the end of the day, Julie just wanted a normal life without having to deal with Ben's alien craziness and having to be kidnapped all the time. At the end of the day bed needed somebody that understood that he was an alien Hero and also had powers of her own
So it wouldn't be a problem, and that was definitely Ester. Because who better to understand the person who could transform into any alien than an alien herself ?
Also, I'm not entirely sure how Eunice would work. Considering that she's just a prototype omnitrix AI thing. It could called the question would really makes a human a human, and that love conquers all despite her being a machine. But I'm not sure the show would have the nuanced for the show to handle
When your four-show franchise's main character's most popular ships (and the ones that are probably the easiest to justify from a purely character interaction perspective) are his cousin from the first series and his partner in the last series, I think it's time to admit that creating girls for the purpose of being his girlfriend isn't working and just make an actual recurring character.
Heck I've seen people ship reboot Ben with Kevin, Gwen, and even glitch instead of making a reboot version of the love interestes. That's how bad it is.
They just need to give him a partner, who isn't related to to him and is coincidentally a girl. It doesn't even have to be romantic at first, that kinda thing can progress slowly in the background
Kai’s whole episode was about why childhood crushes don’t work she was never supposed to be Ben’s endgame. Ben had more chemistry with his villainesses then with Kai
0:23 Honestly I, and probably many others, started hating her after her debut episode in the original series when it turned out she was only interested in Ben , because he was going through a furry phase.
She's a perfect (unintentional, but perfect) chaser allegory. She doesn't respect Ben and doesn't like him for who he is, she just fetishizes him because he's exotic. I genuinely cheered when Gwen told her off for treating Ben like that, I feel like it was a good message for kids: "don't settle for the first person who gives you attention because they may not actually love you"
18:20 JEEEESUS! With the context of him being THEIR SON from THE FUTURE, you know how that sounds? "Yeah, my parents didn't get along until I was born. Meaning these two were a bickering mess that didn't get resolved until the bun in the oven was cooked"
They were literally forced to get together so this kid can get born, no wonder they didn't like each other, imagine getting forced together so a person isn't killed especially
I think two issues I have with Kai, which may be petty, that you didn’t bring up are: 1) Her constant arguments with Ben kind of highlight how childish he is and how much growth from previous shows was retconned 2) Kai being worthy of Excalibur when Ben, the guy who has literally saved the universe countless times and is literally the only reason every single person in it is alive today, isn’t just screamed of an attempt to convince fans that she wasn’t as toxic as she came across as to me
Being worthy was never Excalibur’s thing, it’s more of a bloodline thing which would mean only those related to King Arthur could pull it from the stone.
@@MadameTamma she’s probably not actually directly descended from King Arthur but they could share a common ancestor, but in all honesty the writers likely didn’t know about this aspect of Arthurian Legend and got the rules of Excalibur mixed up with Marvel’s Mjölnir.
Ben x Rook in my opinion is the superior ship. If anything they should have given Kai what she always wanted, an alien boyfriend. That would have been an interesting if they explored that. I see Kai & Ben more as frienemies and Kai could always be that person that cuts right through Ben's ego straight and brutally. Giving him the harshness everyone around him doesn't. Obviously out of care
Rook is perfect for Ben cuz he is at the same time supportive and makes ben more humble, is smart enough to tell Ben when he has a dumb idea and ben helps rook be more relaxed and less uptight.
@@aleksabanjevic8316 Exactly, Rook helps Ben be a better person without having to be an ass about it. Even while Kai and Ben were supposed to have their moments and bicker, I couldn’t help but notice how many times Rook throws an amusing smile at something Ben says. Rook understands Ben and is fond of him more than probably all of the love interests Ben had
@@niki7411 rook and Ben also argue from time to time, but it never feels like they h8 each other, just that they are slightly annoyed with the others actions
@@aleksabanjevic8316 Yeah I was gonna add about that too, them arguing feels more well written and could actually count as couple bickering that the writers tried going for with Kai
Honestly I never finished Omniverse, but just from this video I feel like it would have been much more fun for Spanner's episode if his aggressive shipping ended up explicitly causing a different timeline by trying to force it too early. Or at the very least, delaying it longer than it would have otherwise by making it weird.
the "Trope Talk: Romantic Subplots" video by Overly Sarcastic Productions explains overall the problem with how this show handled romance and why so many writers overall fail at writing compelling love stories since they just slant the characters into pre-existing dynamics instead of trying to develop them organically. "He was a boy. She was a girl. Can I make it any more obvious?" Ironically enough it feels like Ben and Rook's relationship (albeit just a friendship) is the most well developed and interesting one in the series lol
Hi, little late to the party, but yes. Probably also helps that there’s no “choking the red string of fate” as it were where, with Ben and Kai, the idea of them being together was a certainty from the jump, making the usual will-they-won’t they BS have less weight that it usually does. With Ben and Rook, it also helps that it’s not just him interacting with her and villains. It’s stories where both of them are the main characters interacting with most people in it. It also doesn’t help that Ben 10 has a… slanted attitude towards character relationships. Here’s a question; outside of enemies, how many relationships does Kai have outside of Ben?
I always hated when everyone in a series/movie talks over and over about how great character a and b are together regardless on how good the couple actually is , is like the writers are patting themselves in the back
Miraculous Ladybug is the main culprit for this problem. Now, every time I hear someone in any show quote that phrase, it just makes me internally cringe
As i recall both of the first two Ben 1000 ones happened in the OG show, where Kevin WAS still a villain. Each time he was different, because of time travel. Each time 1000 and 10 met, it veered 10 into a different path. The most recent future ep, not only showed Kevin as a good guy, but also married to Gwen.
@@schemar17 Which makes no sense. Why even retcon it when multiverse theory is the basis of Ben 10? And it literally goes against the whole thing of Ben's future changing each time he meets his future version or each time something related to time travel happens.
I love how you bluntly noted the whole "trying really hard to capture the relationship between Ben and Gwen but without using Gwen since that'd be incestuous."
If they were gonna make her endgame, she should have been there early on in Omniverse. Also, she’s just toxic. She wasn’t just balancing Ben’s ego she was outright trying to put him down. She was just mean. And then suddenly not. Btw in defense of Eunice, while Gwen was the sample DNA the Unitrix scanned. It randomized the DNA to be wholly removed from the Tennyson family tree. She has unique DNA.
If Julie had broken up with Ben because their lives became incompatible as she continued her tennis career, it could have a bittersweet ending and wouldn’t have caused such a fan rage fest as what they did, which was disrespecting her character and any fans of her, it’d have given Ben the chance to start a new relationship and if they had written that organically they could’ve made the relationship with Kai even better. Relationships, particularly from a writing standpoint, is ultimately meant to help the protagonist improve as a person in some way, which neither of the relationships they put Ben in actually did. Romantic arcs are some of the easiest things to write, the formula has been perfected, it’s why I get so baffled when professional writers mess it up! Maybe it’s because they never actually learnt about romance as a genre and are clueless of the fact there’s so many resources out there on how to make a romance organic. Even if you don’t intend to write romance as a genre, you’re crazy not to study it as nearly every story has a subplot involving a relationship. For characters that don’t initially like each other but become a couple later, you need to show the audience WHY they belong together before the characters themselves even know it (and no, not with a time traveler just telling you), but also show both characters have a flaw, inner wound or false belief that stands in the way of them getting together and makes them “not ready yet” for a romance, meaning they get together when they individually improve as characters/overcome their flaw. To any writers out there, even if you don’t care about romance/shipping, take some time to learn how to write one anyway, as a badly written romantic subplot can ruin characters and even the entire story, which you definitely don’t want happening!
I just head cannon now that they started dating after the finale when they started travelling the galaxy but had to brake up so that Ken can be born, and they had an emotional brake up but were both mature enough at that point to make the right decision. That or ben is cheating on kai with rook in the future stolas style. It wouldn't be the first time he cheated.
Julie is definitely not Ben's most popular non-incestuous ship, she's third at best. Kevin and Rook are easily his most popular non-incestuous ships. I think even Rex might beat her out and he was a crossover character.
@@coldfrost3 shipping is about who you have a relationship with and your sexual orientation matters more or less(depending on the person) one Ben has depicted as straight two ben not into incest(until writers show otherwise one and two I mean ) so he would end up with a female not biologically related to him (or choose to be alone ).
One thing I want to see is an official Ken 10 series that focuses on Ken, with a subplot of Ben and Kai getting a divorce. It helps the haters see them apart, but also could show that even in a divorce, both parents can and do love the child/children
Would have made a great twist as to why he wanted Ben and Kai to get together. His parents were divorcing so he went back in time to try and get them together.
I didn’t watch much of this franchise after they regressed Ben’s personality. But I remember a little of Ester, and thinking Ben and her worked well enough. This “fate” crap with Kai just feels like they wasted the audience’s time. It’s like Marco x Kelly. Why set up something so good, when the writers never had any intention of it being anything?
at least Star VS was smart enough to realize that bonding Star and Marco through fate was a bad idea and eventually did away with that nonsense, that doesn't excuse all the other problems with that shows shipping but they at least figured that one out.
@@valentinkambushev4968 The point was that the writers thought being “soulmates” was super romantic. But when the fanbase addressed how problematic it was, the writers went “oops” and hastily wrote it out in a sloppy episode.
@@arellajardin8188 Hot take: I don't think that episode was sloppy. Tom shows regret for trying to use the blood moon. Also he has a relative who tells of the dark side of removing blood moon curse.
Something really insidious about how they chose to characterize Kai and connect it with Ben 10,000, and honestly I'm shocked it wasn't even touched upon in the video, is that (if I remember correctly) the episode that introduced that future either heavily implies or flat out states that future Ben spends most of his time in Alien mode non-stop; couple this with the personality trait that his "destined" wife only seemed interested in Ben while in Alien mode ... are we supposed to NOT get the impression that this is a trait she never grew out of and was encoraging or worse imposing on Ben during their marriage? This has disturbing spousal abuse connotations, because again (if I remember correctly) in that first episode the only person future Gwen felt had a chance of talking future Ben into accepting/embracing his human self was the Ben he used to be - before he had ever met Kai. Feel free to point out to me if any part of this position is based on bad memories or rampent biases, just don't be a d*ck about it.
The only thing somewhat off here is that we don't get any indication that Ben is with anyone in the initial Ben 10,000 episode. It doesn't seem like he has a son yet, and isn't dating or married to anyone either. Of course, by the time we see him again in the second Ben 10,000 episode, he has gotten past the Always Alien issue. I'm not immediately sure if there is much of anything to indicate how much time has passed between the first and second 10,000 episodes, though. Ultimately, there isn't any direct counter-evidence to this interpretation, but there is a lack of evidence one would generally expect to exist if it were true.
Ben is 30 in “Ben 10’000” and doesn’t have any kind of social life outside of being a superhero, so it highly unlikely that he’s in a relationship with anyone at this point, while in “Ken 10” he’s 42 and has a 10 year old son, so Kai only got with Ben after he has long since stopped being alien all the time.
"Gwen, you have to treat a car like you would treat a woman." "Go on." "...No... I sense I've made a mistake of some kind." LOL I friggin' LOVE that exchange!
28:13 The weird thing about this ship is that it never explicitly says that Ben and Kai become a couple in the future. Just that he “Meets back up with her in the future.” Kai didn’t have to be Ben’s wife in the future. Making her the endgame. Hell she could have just been another girl in his life. But the creators just push it so hard trying to call it “fate.” That when you combine how little chemistry they have, how shallow she seems being infatuated with Ben’s alien forms and not him, and how fast the they push this. It just makes the relationship a complete disaster.
Just remember this Kai only liked Ben when he transformed into aliens but nothing else she really didn’t care about him at least Julie liked Ben and not his aliens
Oh, I could write a whole thesis on this ship, and I just might; it is everything wrong when writing a romantic relationship. Kai would have worked better as a rival than a love interest, in my opinion. Like in Kim Possible, when she faced a rival agent Will Du, they were matched in skill, and both wanted to lead the mission. And by the end, both were humbled and bettered themselves as people and heroes. The girl you met 7 years ago, over 3 days, starts acting as if she knows you. That would be off-putting to anyone, let alone someone as combative as Ben. They go together like water and grease fire, and somehow the writer thinks that's cute. It's like they heard the phrase "argue like an old married couple" and ran with it. Forgetting that these are young teens and that if they can't even agree on simple things like what direction to go. How are they going to handle things like buying a house, where to move, and who's family do we see during the holidays? These two are the type to sleep together once, try to make the relationship work for a year, and then break up. Cue the sigh of relief from all their friends and families who had to put up with the non-stop arguing.
Water and a Grease Fire !!! roflmao Maybe it was an attempt to put some "color" in the show It can't be a coincidence the Kai happens to be a Navajo native american
@@ladyaceina Going to have to disagree with this one. Charmcaster is like 15-16 minimum in the OS and in her 20s in the sequel series. Gwen is 10 in the OS and 15-16 in the sequel series. That age gap is not one I can get behind
Even Ester is kinda of a sad ship, since Ben is shown to be kinda childish with her in dates (like with Julie or Kai). The ultimate enemy are the CN executives making Ben act like a kid when his a Teen.
Kai and Ben are not a great couple, but I still stand by the air duct scene being 10/10 banter. "How can there be two main halls!?" Is one of my favorite jokes in the series.
Honestly Omniverse kinda f-ed over almost every female character in the show, Gwen was brought back to her naggy child self (though i did appreciate her comimg back to the mystic roots, i love AF but my only problem with it was that everything had to be about aliens, it made the world seem smaller), Charmcaster was just turned into the crazy ex-girlfriend trope, Julie and Kai have already been addressed in your videos, Ester was fun but really came across as manic pixie dream girl (at least in her introduction, i genuinely cant remember if she developed further), the tetramand woman whose only personality trait was wanting to marry someone, the only female character who wasnt screwed over was Kevin's dog🤣😂 Rook is best boi, doggo is best girl
to be fair I feel like Gwen never really stops being naggy like she was always kind of there to tell Ben and Kevin off from their crazier antics even in AF and UA
I feel like they could've made Kai work if they'd introduced her at the beginning of the show and made her a constant, part of the gang like Rook. She'd have a similar trope to gwen in the original series for people to latch on to, could've gotten actual development, and make the relationship form more naturally. But instead they forgot about her and had to awkwardly jam her into the plot
16:25 heck, Julie was also doing that sometimes with ship whenever it involved ship. Heck, she and Ben could have been this dynamic couple/duo fighting crime together and the villains (and Kevin) groaning at their "subtle" flirting. Their relationship could have been more open and affectionate, which would contrast that of Gwen's and Kevin's more hand down and "cool" approach. Basically what I'm trying to say is I wish Julie and Ben were more lovey dovey in the show than what we actually got (jerkwad Ben)
Since the time-line branches whenever time travel happens, it would've been great if through Ben's son's meddling he stopped Ben and Kai from getting together when they would've slowly fallen in love with one another naturally without all the pushing in the time-line Omniverse ended up being in because of their son's interference.
It’s actually kind of dark in universe that the original Ben 10,000 future is the canon one when you think about it. Like can you imagine being Ben and thinking that you changed your original future and the whole turning evil crap with Kevin being done for good with him dating your cousin for years only for it to eventually happen again and see him beating the ever living shit out of your son and his own son and having to beat him within a inch of his life as waybig. It gets even more dark when you remember all of Kevin’s and Ben’s more friendly interactions from Alien Force and Ultimate Alien and the more serious interactions like Kevin’s time as Ultimate Kevin when Ben was about to straight up kill him. Edit: do you guys think Ben realizing that all of his struggles to make a different future for himself and to redeem Kevin was all for nothing a good story? Cause it could possibly develop more of his character and have some self reflection for him? I just realize how it would make a interesting story
It would be dope for a non Ben prime universe because Kevin prime is too good and as interestimg as it sounds, I think it will be bad to write this story after all the development because it will end like troll hunters
I legitimately remember being so relieved when Kevin became such a good character that it was obvious that the Ben 10,000 thing couldn't possibly be canon. It's shitty that they keep trying to make it fit.
Original run Kevin was written in such a way that he was likely always a villain and never reformed. From introduction to the second future episode. In that timeline, he and Gwen were never a thing. I do wonder who his partner was though, and how Kevin got out of the Null Void only to get sent back in after conceiving a kid.
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Rook is best boi.
Rook is the best
Best waifu
Ben had more chemistry with Rook then Kai sorry not sorry
Rook our boi
I love how rook just stands there perfectly as Ben and Kai argue 😂
I'm still amazed at how great Rook is.
He came in with the biggest deck stacked against him: Replacing both Gwen and Kevin as Ben's partner, while having a typical "Fish out of Water" sort of dynamic and a speech pattern to match it.
Yet somehow he ended up being so damn likable and amazing.
Facts
I think he saved the show from being bad. That is with the Alien that is just sentient Lego's.
Bumper Robinson is a very talented voice actor, he literally made that character full on charming and endearing for a by the book boy scout character
Rook made me play player 2
He’s an amazing character! And was voiced by a legend as a bonus!
This ship is the equivalent of an 8 year old girl smashing her dolls faces together yelling "NOW KISS"
And that 8 year old being Ben and Kai's child
That pretty much sums it up
@@Cynicalhamptur Ken's pretty much in a Marty Mcfly situation, except his parents seem like the most unlikely to end up with.
@@gamechanger8908 Agreed. The only positive thing about Kai and Ben's ship is that Kai Ego checks Ben.
Which could actually be good for Ben. Because we all know he needs someone to keep his attitude in check and not a submissive waifu.
Forcing two characters together because of “Destiny” is honestly pretty disgusting because it removes their agency. They’re not getting together out of love but because Fate demands it. This is why I can respect Green Lantern in Justice League. He admits he loves Hawk Girl but refuses to be a puppet of fate. The writers of Omniverse would probably choose to have him dump Vixen just because Hawkgirl x Green Lantern was their OTP.
The problem with Kai was definitely her writing. If they just gave her more episodes and had Ben break up with Julie in a respectful way, it would have been fine. Instead the writers were basically throwing her at Ben.
If I was writing the time travel episode, the lesson would be that you can’t force people to love each other.
Rewrite: The child from the future realizes someone has been messing with the timeline, and that change is threatening their existence, so he needs to go back to make sure his parents get together. He’s not subtle with it, trying to force them together at every turn. That’s his mistake. Trying to force them together actually makes them hate each other even more than before, driving them apart. The child’s lesson is that he has to let things happen naturally. He can help them subtly, but he can’t just force them to love each other.
Perhaps there is a minor villain Ben and Kai are fighting when their son goes back in time. He idiotically gets captured by that guy, so Ben and Kai have to save him. That would have been so sweet! Imagine two characters falling in love after heroically saving someone, not realizing the person they saved is their future child time traveling back to see them.
The key to making an episode like that work is making sure the character’s don’t know it’s their child at the time. If they know, it makes the whole thing feel forced. It’d add an extra layer of intrigue if the future versions eventually realized it was their son and actually planned this whole thing out to keep the timeline as is.
This could have been a great concept.
Not to mention the whole concept of destiny doesnt work because we have seen multiple futures of ben 10k and this whole kai must be the one is introduced in omniverse.
The season whose main premise is alternate universes
It's not about romance, but it reminds me of how in Avengers Infinity War and Endgame Dr. Strange says there's only one universe where they win. Despite there being points where it seems like the heroes could've done things slightly different and won in a different way said methods won't work because the script said so. It feels like a way of denouncing any sort of theories or questions about character choices without having to actually think up a proper answer for why things either do or do not work. I'm sure other films and shows have done this, and I'm sure there's a name for it, but the Avengers example was just the most immediate one I thought of.
Why do Ben and Kai get together? Because it's destiny. Any instance where it seems like things shouldn't work won't have an effect because the conclusion is inevitable. So it doesn't matter how unbelievable some of the things are since it's all pre-written and nothing can change.
@@flarestorm9417 i mean avenger's concept of fate and the multiverse is very flimsy tho
@@flarestorm9417 One series that comes to mind that fucks it up equally as bad is Star vs The Forces of Evil because it forcibly makes Starco the endgame from the first season.
@@flarestorm9417 I'd like to disagree with the concept of fate in avengers.
Recall that Dr Strange was trying to see how to beat Thanos, and Thanos could arrive at any time to fight Tony's side of heroes.
So that meant that they had not much time to prepare, I believe that Dr Strange only managed to see 1 alternate universe within that limited time, but could have seen more where they won if he had more time.
I believe they wrote that part in, to just show how hopeless it is to fight Thanos to give the heroes a taste of despair and also tension.
You know what would have actually made this interesting? Is if Kenny had arrived from a different timeline and kept pushing Ben and Kai together. But then he saw that Gwen and Kevin were together and freaked out while trying to tear them apart because Kevin is still evil in his timeline. Would have been a great commentary on how not everything is set in stone when multiple universes exist and time travel is common.
Bruhh that would have been super cool. Because the Kevin from Kenny's timeline still IS evil, and we'd get to see him realise Devlin doesn't exist or has a different mother in Omniverse timeline
I love this a lot
When fans who have greater knowledge and understanding about storytelling and the lore than the actual writers of the show!!! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
THIS!! THIS IS PERFECT!
This would have been dope
They could’ve put Ben with anyone, yet they chose the girl who sees him as more of a pet than a love interest. I would’ve preferred it to be ester. She just liked ben in general as opposed to some of his other love interest. Julie moved on because of ben’s neglect and the others wanted Ben to transform into a different species. I feel like Ben and ester would’ve worked just fine+the fact that she’s an alien
Indeed your right😄.
I still think that Julie was the best love interest. The way that they got rid of her was ridiculous. They wanted to get rid of her to shoehorn another character they liked instead. They didnt even do it properly, it was lazy and done as a one off gag. Poor writing in that regard.
@@LDEIB not entirely. Well, maybe in Omniverse, yea, but Ben's neglect of Julie was around even from Alien Force.
@@Swordkiller55623 I'll give you that, he did neglect her a bit I think. Its kinda hazy for me. But if they were gonna get rid of her they could have done it in a more meaningful way
Still, Ben neglect Ester.
Even as a kid I felt like this was forced as hell. That's when you KNOW there's problems with the writing.
There should have been more moments of them together. They could've worked better. The writers got lazy.
I honestly thought from the beginning that they will be nothing at the end tho
Kai is a monster f*cker, and thats the only reason shes interested in ben.
What doesn’t help is the guy that was behind Omniverse had a mindset of “Screw canon, I’m in control”. Basically writing out, retconning and recreating anything he didn’t personally like.
@@yuishishido8780 exactly I knew something was wrong when Ben 10 and Alien force said 6 years ago then it restarted with omniverse saying 5 years later then being aliens we never had saw before nor saw him use it anything and the bunch of call backs to the old Ben 10
Wasn't Kai's debuting episode about how childhood crushes don't always work. And then, she just became endgame material out of nowhere because of some destiny bullshit.
EXACTLY!!! That was literally the whole point. Gwen flat-out says "sometimes you get crushed."
Seriously I expected Ben married Julie Ben married Gwen even Ben married Eunice but Kai from all best girl in series you choose this trash
Hopefully she doesn't bet ultimate ben 10k didn't fall for her probably ended up with Julie or something
@@waddahbenabdelhafidh1020 lol now choose incest
Finally some good logic.Somehow omniverse fans will say that bringing kai and putting her with ben is somehow going back to the roots of the classic series 😂
Kai could've worked if she were in the show from the beginning and if the writers made her liking Ben's aliens more than him a flaw that she needed to overcome. Caring more about a person's power more than them is one of the most obvious flaws with any non-powered/human love interest in a superhero story. What makes love interests like Lois Land and Selina Kyle (Catwoman) great is they've shown to care about both sides of their partners. You can't just love parts of a person; it's all or nothing. Kai should've been eager to go on adventures with Ben to see his aliens in action and shower him with affection at every opportunity. Ben could like it at first because of his immaturity ego, but then he could try to seek comfort from Kai due to problems in his personal life, only for Kai to be despondent and apathetic. Ben could then reject Kai when she tries to kiss him in his alien form and call her out on her shallow fangirl bs. Kai could argue that it shouldn't be a big deal since being a superhero is more important than whatever is going on in his personal life. This could also serve as commentary for how men's and boy's health and well-being aren't taken as seriously as they should. Throughout the show, Kai could see aspects of Ben the person that she likes and grow to be more considerate of his humanity. As Ben slowly matures and grows closer to Kai, only then can Ben 10,000 be set and the future be secure.
Basically, I would've written Ben and Kai to be equally flawed in their own way and not be able to form a relationship until they came to terms with their flaws and took action to improve upon them. I never liked stories where a relationship fixes people's flaws. It both puts way too much stock in the concept of relationships and can cause people to be stuck in unfulfilling/toxic relationships. When you add gender dynamics, it also plays into the trope of it takes a good woman to fix a broken man. People aren't houses. A house doesn't argue, avoid being fixed, or go behind your back to undo all the work you put into it. People shouldn't be in a relationship to fix their flaws. They need to fix themselves first and then get into a relationship. When also adding that Ben and Kai are teenagers, it makes even more sense that they can't form a proper, serious, long-lasting relationship until they're both adults.
Whenever I watch any media with Lois Lane in it. It always boils down that she is only interested on Superman and not Clark Kent and even she is interested on Clark Kent, she would cheat on him with Superman (sheesh reminds me of MJ in the Tobey Maguire's Spiderman trilogy). As for Selina Kyle, well I can't blame for fcking Batman and Bruce Wayne bc both are a win(one is a badass mtherfcker and the other is a playboy billionaire) and she's a criminal so her cheating on Batman for Bruce and vice versa isn't far fetch.
Just a rant, but I do think No Way Home implied that Andrew Garfield's Spiderman destiny has been set that he should be with an MJ and that his relationship with Gwen Stacy was never meant to work out but atleast they never mentioned that out loud (and hopefully won't when TASM 3 does get release).
It would have been interesting to see that Ben sees his future Ben 10k being married with WHILE our Ben is dating someone else like Julie, now that would be an interesting conflict.
😎 Dude Great Analysis,
Your idea Could be a Good Fanfiction Material (or a Fan Comic),
But Too bad it just makes you wanted more from the Actual Series.
Oh well This a Multiverse /Omniverse Type of Story 😢
Maybe in Alien force since the Tennysons were barely in the same place during the original show
Damn, now I want someone to write a fanfic this exact way
Please tell me you write for a show.
Ester had far better character development in the Omniverse and honestly, I wouldn't actually mind an alien wife for Ben. Like how Max had Verdona. It would have been pretty cool.
I agree with you Ben x Ester would have be fabulous and perfect for each other 😍💚😍.
julie is better
Kevin: "Gwen, you've got to treat a car like you treat a woman."
Gwen: "Go on? 🤨"
Kevin: "😐😕... No... I sense I've made a mistake of some kind..."
Me: Nice save.
To anyone who wants to know why Omniverse changed Kevin's backstory, and replaced Juli with Kai? They were trying to set things back to the original plan set by their dead co-worker.. an honorable thought, but terrible execution force by time restraints by corporate.
Exactly. People over look this.
No cartoon network made them change it
@@schemar17 ???? No?
@@ARandomEliatrope are they talking about dwayne mcduffie?
I don’t think so. Dwayne mcduffie is a lot of things. Going back is not one of those things
Give Julie and Ben credit. Even with your video explaining rather well why the ship didn’t work and the failures of Julie as a character. But at least there was an attempt to build a relationship without completely forgetting it with them at least ending uaf on a somewhat happy note. So to have kai, a character that has like ten episodes to her name get replaced when the only somewhat developed Ben relationship ends off screen and Kai just really does feel forced specially given her negative light in her one os appearance.
I wish Ben and Julie had more chemistry in the show like in alien force season 1 and 2 it was acceptable but they should’ve given more of a push to their relationship in season 3 and have Julie be part of their team also have an episode where it’s just Ben and Julie going out alone together on a trip to spend time with each other and open up more to one another that would’ve been great and have Julie ask Ben where he first go the omnitrix and all that.
@@The_UltimateL1feform Agreed
This is the most horrendous couple in the entire SHOW, it was a shame that the two of them ended up together, putting Ben and Kai together was terrible, wow, Kai and Ben and forced and boring, in fact it was the most boring thing of the entire BEN10 show. I would prefer that Ben ended up with the frog princess ha Attea or the giant red princess ha Looma, it would be INFINITELY better than with KAI, she is simply UNSUPPORTABLE, until today I don’t believe Ben married Kai, that was a MISTAKE!
Oh I agree. At Julie we see her and Ben do activities together, share some common interests, and Julie felt like she was a part of the team.
If they made Kai a recurring character in the latter half of Omniverse and we saw more on-screen character/relationship development, I think Kai would be a better character or even better love interest of Ben’s. Maybe Ben could point out that she only cares for his transformations, and that can lead to her actually getting to know Ben as a person. I hate that a lot of the development is implied to have happened off-screen.
Agreed
I used to like this ship... when I was 10 until I rewatched Omniverse years later and the thing is she's not even a regular character. She just re-occurs time to time like "hey remember this character? , Remember we destroyed relationship's for him to end up with her?" the next time we see her again she's not really a major character she just plays a minor role they really should have kept him with Ester to be honest (but she's too good for him though but it could have also gone somewhere)
@Will N that’s a really cool perspective on Kai. It does make sense
@Will N That would be cool, except they don't devote a lot of time to her. Sure, Kevin was originally only in a couple episodes but he became more prominent a member of the cast. And the transition wasn't rushed needlessly.
So, like, imagine if in one of the prior "Shows" we got Kai's reappearance. Then her intro in "Omniverse" was edited so she's not coming off as a complete bitch. And then she appears every two or three episodes, with either Julie or Ester still present.
And on that note, do Ben and Kai ever even go on an actual date? I know they don't spend much time on dates in any Ben 10 show, but Julie had at least one date with Ben, plus a few times where she went out with Ben and/or Gwen and Kevin somewhere without superhero business being the motivation. They don't really take the time to develop Ben and Kai as a couple that do couple things together, which is a majorly missed opportunity. It's not what I look for in a superhero show, but it would've made Ben X Kai more believable.
The forcing of BenKai reminds me of Adrinette (Adrien + Marinette from Miraculous Ladybug). Adrinette is also a perfect example of how forcing the ship and literally mentioning that "they are meant to be together" not once, but at least five times by each different character makes me hate the ship. It's never going anywhere, especially how Marinette is still a stalker 5 seasons in and how Adrien is still oblivious about her. Hell, Lukanette (Luka + Marinette) and Adrigami (Adrien + Kagami) don't have much screen time but have far, far better chemistry and development than Adrienette ever has. But NO! They broke the two pairs so that Adrienette CAN happen not because of how bad it is, but because IT IS FATE and they are MEANT TO BE TOGETHER.
I hate such ships. Writers really need to stop this trope of "fate."
Not gonna lie the 2D version of miraculous seemed like something I wouldve checked out, but I've never bothered watching the actual show. I did watch people draw character redesigns and do reviews, it seemed like a lot of wasted potential.
Marichat ftw
@@davidalacabo4298. Exactly what they said!
They don't need to _stop_ using the plot device, they just need to execute it well (i.e. in a way I like).
Benkai= Adrinette+Ladynoir
Ben+julie= Adrigami
Yes they are similar
The crazy thing about this whole thing is, Ken has nothing to worry about. In the series, when Ben meets a future version of himself, his future is no longer that future, and that future becomes an alternate timeline that still exists just no longer connected to the prime timeline. Everything in Ken’s timeline still happens, so there was no reason for him to put them together, and Ben isn’t even going to have the same future taking the other 2 Ben 10,000’s from before Omniverse into consideration.
Because the writes forgot that each time Ben goes back in time, it creates a new timeline. I'd like it better if Ken never existed TBH, that way Ben and Kai can never be a thing.
One of the perfect examples of “Even if fans don’t like her, let’s overexpose her up to the moon!” situations like this one.
(Holy shit, y’all are insane and I love y’all, it’s been 2 days!
But yeah, Kai isn’t *that* overexposed, but when the show keeps HAMMERING this ship into peoples faces like this, it kind of fits??)
Like Carlie Cooper in the Spider-Man comics after One More Day
Sounds like she's Rey of secondary/tetriary characters
How is four episodes over exposure? Really more screen time would have helped Kai. Well and better writing. The pairing was rushed and forced, felt unnatural and shoved in our face. More like with Kai could have made it better, as that would have given it more time to develop and us more time to breathe. That and remove the whole Spanner and "it's destiny" crap.
@@ricardofredes9527
but at least she was eventually gone
Was it even overexposure if she was in so few episodes?
Rook has far more chamestry with Ben, than most of his love interest ever had.
Its sad that this is true
I honestly would have preferred that over the stupid orgy implications, only to have him end up with the worst girl in series. I mean, this girl first wanted to keep him as a pet!
@@SallyBMcgill they had seasons to develop one of them-
And still best boi rook was the best love interest 😂😭
Even Kevin did.
Facts. Rook was a great character
Alternate dimensions, parallel universes, multiple timelines and at least 4 universal resets, but this is the ONE GIRL Ben is supposed/allowed to be with
EXACTLY WHAT IM SAYING
Lowkey, this reminds me of Spider-Man where almost every version ends up with Mary Jane.
It reminds me of the CW version of the Flash where Iris learns of a future (just a future because anything done in the present can cause it to change) and one (exactly one) alternate earth where her and Barry are together and she is utterly convinced that they’re “meant to be together”.
@@JayRedGear Barry and Iris, Superman and Lois,
@@JayRedGear I feel like that's probably because Peter and Mary were meant to be endgame in the comics, but then really dumb writers decided to end their marriage with a literal deal with the devil rather than simply making the two go through a divorce.
As Malcolm Reed says in Star Trek Enterprise: “If you had a book from the future telling you who you end up with, and you find this person, did you marry them for love or because the book told you to?”
the Kevin line you used at the end is always my favorite moment. he realized he did something wrong... but isn't sure what... and is smart enough to zip it. while making one of the funniest lines in the show. perfection
I wasn't even a big fan of Ben/Julie because I felt it was introduced far too quickly, but at least Julie liked him for who he was, with his superpowers being a bonus. I had to check who Kai even was, and when I realized I was... outraged. In her debut episode she literally acts like a chaser. She only cares about Ben because he's an alien, even though the experience is clearly distressing to him on some level, and immediately loses interest when he goes back to normal.
Yeah she's a furry.
To be honest i alweys found Ben as a caracter annoying as f***k alien s and action wore only thing i like about him so i feel for Kai
@@cosmicdoggo9296 I mean, being annoying doesn't mean you deserve to date someone who treats you more like a pet than a person.
In the original series, Gwen even calls her out on her bs. But apparently, Kai is still allowed to do the same thing as a teenager, and it's supposed to be an endearing trait. Who is going to like a character like that?
This is the most horrendous couple in the entire SHOW, it was a shame that the two of them ended up together, putting Ben and Kai together was terrible, wow, Kai and Ben and forced and boring, in fact it was the most boring thing of the entire BEN10 show. I would prefer that Ben ended up with the frog princess ha Attea or the giant red princess ha Looma, it would be INFINITELY better than with KAI, she is simply UNSUPPORTABLE, until today I don’t believe Ben married Kai, that was a MISTAKE!
"Bickering isn't hot, it's just bickering" I love this line.
(kinda late reply...) I don't think bickering itself is "hot" lol but I do think bickering can add to a ship. ik many ppl would disagree but for some ppl they want to hide their feelings for someone so they overreact negatively to them. I think it works when it's obviously coverup for their true feelings rather than genuine dislike of each other
@@tiablue9106. This misconception primarily comes from the pessimistic and nihilistic narrow minded assumption, that every aspect of real life is inherently miserable, thus"realistic"writing aims to reflect it! That's why majority of mainstream romantic relationships are portrayed as constant snarling, because people think a happy and stable relationship only exist in optimistic and childish fairy tails like cinderella(where she's emotionally and sometimes physically abused, until meeting a nice guy who also happens to be rich who helped her out), since appearently people aren't altruistic, especially the one percent!🙄😒
Idk if yall have ever been in a relationship, especially a long good relationship but, bickering is the reason why the saying is “yall argue like an old married couple” regardless if you feel it’s hot or not, it’s kinda realistic
Bickering only works when the characters are already married, because then you know that they love each other and the discussion is more a inconvenience than anything serious
And this is why fanfics exist. To fix what the writers can't, or won't.
Read a fanfic of Looma and Ben, and hell it had a better chemistry than Kai wanting to be yiffed by Blitzwolfer.
@@TLMS_SHADOW She has her moments, like keeping Ben in check, but dehumanizing the guy for some weird fetish like having Blitzwolfer as his contact pic just feels wrong.
That why I love Ben 10 Guardians. Is Omniverse but so much better.
@@mayotango1317. What's that"amon"?
OR TO BREAK OTHER THINGS!
The sad part is, Kai’s character could have also worked for Ben. Sure, it has been established that Ben sees value in himself, but the show could have focused on him using his aliens a lot, mainly seeing it as his only real option when things get heavy. With Kai being far more interested in his aliens, it would start to dawn on Ben that that he is finding more value in his aliens than he does in himself, so it would give him a new drive to start taking things seriously and focus on his own growth as a human who is just as capable, perhaps even more so, than his aliens, which he could come to realize that they are nothing without him as they are just tools, not alternate versions of himself, which in turn would have Kai start seeing value in Ben by seeing how capable he is without the Omnitrix.
They had something there, but they lost it before production. Such a sad fate, indeed.
If anything Ben should have been the one way more interested in aliens, hence all his alien GFs. Settling for a human makes no sense outside of a non-adoption perspective.
Ben deserved better than Kai
this is why omniverse is a joke
@@YujiUedaFan Also bro literally has alien dna from the omnitrix too
@@atozreaction116 Nah, he has to settle for a human kid because it's too interesting for him to have an alien kid that uses the watch to turn human as one of their aliens.
Hell yes another Ben 10 video. Couldn't find a thing to disagree about in this whole video.
Another Ink Tank comment. cool
Yooo
will you guys also discuss this when you reach the specific episodes showing these ships?
Oh shit Kuro found at the site!
OF COURSE YOU GUYS ARE HERE
Not only do ships like this not work when the explanation is "because fate says so," but it also continues the annoying and kinda damaging trend that people arguing and bickering is actually a sign that they like each other. Nothing Ben and Kai argue about feels romantic, it feels petty. At least Julie had positive interactions with him when he wasn't being the worst and there was an attempt to build a relationship with her. With Kai, it's just "they're destined to be together and they argue so that must mean that they're in love."
Yes….so many people Mis-Write Friends to Lovers. Friends to lovers requires some signs that people actually care about each other under it all. It’s not just fighting = love. Especially when the characters are as old as Kai and Ben. That logic maybe works for like an 8 year old on the playground. Not someone Ben’s age.
@@TheDawnofVanlife I really hate the “if they argue they secretly love each other” thing.
Its the old shitty trope of "They fight because they love each other!"
I like a little snarky banter between an eventual couple, but the difference between it being bad and it being good is having them be playful and they have to get along more than they don't or else it looks lie the Boomer "I hate my wife" gag in it's pre-marriage phase. I can like a touch of irritation at first followed by equal measure showing how compatible they are. Like Pride and Prejudice. Lizzie and Darcy end up together and had initial dislike but they saw aspects that they admired in each other. That's why the story's endured.
Not even just that she was forced, her personality is awful. She treated Ben like a dog when they were kids and never apologized for it. I know she was a kid but the fact that she hardly changed speaks volumes.
This is a erican broduction what did you expect to hold females to scrutiny?
@@Raximus3000 what are you even talking about??
@@jknetwork6211
Unless you have been living under a rock you should know in cartoons girls/women can be awful and nobody will call them out on that but if a boy/man does the same he is bad. Basicaly double standards.
So, her being awful is not a big thing that just means she is "strong willed" according to them.
@@Raximus3000 well that sounds like crap ngl
@@Thebeyondninja
It is what it is.
“They tried to contort everything to fit an ending it had long since grown past.”
Ah, the ‘How I Met Your Mother’ problem.
"And Kevin standing around cosplaying as himself"
That line got me way too much XD.
Julie is the nice girl who wanted to make something genuine out of a relationship but kept being sabotaged by Ben’s awful personality, teaching us the basics of a neglectful boyfriend.
Ester is the cool girl who paired the best with Ben by sharing his Likes, personality and is able to support him in his hero life but unfortunately the Wri- Fate had other ideas so she gave up and left a decent relationship, teaching us that our lives aren’t in our hands, destiny is unchangeable and we should all give up and accept the outcome because it’s too much work to fight.
Kai is the poor child who never asked to be born, never had a chance to be her own person and only reason given by God for existing is to have babies with Ben, teaching us women are only their to have babies.
You can really see the regression of Ben 10
Just... yeah. Doesn't really help Science Fiction's misogyny issues.
Plus, we're not even factoring in the fact that this is all happening to both female aliens and women of colour. The latter having a deeply disturbing history of being sexualised or having abuse romanticized in media.
maybe reading too deep into it
@@mazking1366 Probably.
Still, it is kind of weird that they're both surprisingly underdeveloped.
@@christopherbennett5858 honestly I think the joke of kai being a baby mama would have been more interesting then what they actually did
In a nutshell, I feel like Kai is really not *that* awful in hindsight (and I feel horrible for contributing to the Kai hatred as a kid). She is just sabotaged HORRIBLY by the writing in terms of her story presence and her personality.
Edit: y’all do realize “far worse characters” meant characters with bad writing? Gotta love the anti Kai crowd. 😑
"She's not awful, she's just sabotaged by everything that makes her a character"
Yeah that's called being an awful character.
@@lilchristuten7568 when you look at her character from a neutral perspective…there are far worse characters than her out there. I’m not justifying her flaws, but I think that many people overexaggerate them to the point where it creates a version of Kai that doesn’t accurately reflects her canon self.
@@lilchristuten7568 She'd be perfect as a rival or a villain. Not a love interest.
Writers must be on something for not going for the original love interest. You can't write cheating, harem bullshit, and then made a girl who showed up in two episodes with barely any "development" (Mind huge quotation as Julie's development is questionable) the final girl the MC will end up with. Shows could theoretically pull it off, but logically, doing too much is not good.
@@DoveJS nah, I think she’s capable of being a good ally of Ben or a friendly rival if she’s given a showcase of her backstory and her positive traits. Look at what happened to Ahsoka from Star Wars. She went from a hated character to one of the most beloved characters in Star Wars because the writers dedicated time to fixing the issues surrounding her and fleshed her out. It happened because the writers gave a damn.
I think had Kai given the Ahsoka treatment, then she could’ve been *more.* Well…at least fanfiction is there to fix issues of the stuff we love. :)
She straight up said she wanted to train Ben like a dog in the OG series. Why was she even brought back? Who pushed this fetish on the show?
She still into it in omniverse too! Pets blitz wolfer with that good boy talk
Well based on Omniverse she seems to like every alien form except Ben's human form. Which uh... well, alien-human hybrids exist so it's not impossible to make it work. Though to take it seriously I don't think they literally meant it in a furry way. As a kid I didn't take that as being something sexual until, well, I learned furries exist.
@@flarestorm9417 yeah but most of Ben's aliens only really work in a sexual with well....other alien women of the same race. Like imagine ben hitting you from the back as heatblast or 4 arms.
@@inkkid376 guess that was one of the reasons for the Reuters retcon
@@joshuamanjarrez6321
Yeah to many questions like" how can a human woman hold a heatblast baby in her womb with out her burning alive?" Or "does 4 arms have 2 giant dicks if so how can a human woman even have it fit with out killing her or causing massive internal damage?", and let's not forget "who would want to bang these aliens in the frist place?" .
Imagine this entire situation but from Kai’s perspective. You are basically being told that you are going to marry and have kids with this guy you sort of like/dislike and you have no choice because fate said so. And just to make it worse, your future son shows up to emotionally blackmail you with the threat that they won’t exist unless you agree to give up any sense of autonomy over your own life.
I can’t even begin to imagine how utterly frustrating that must be.
That's why time travel is a double edge sword and you should just stay to your timeline and do not back to your past
Also she's a Native American being told by a kid to marry a white man. She has no autonomy at all and it's pretty racist.
Well she would still be end up being the toxic one of the forced two.
Ben deserve way better than Kai. Heck Ben at least deserve avreage GF
@@firefistace2024But if you do have to go back to prevent a catastrophe from happening or something, keep your mouth shut about certain people's fates unless it's essential to your mission in the past.
Telling people about their awesome futures can be bad. If they know too much, it might not happen because they might louse it up trying to make it happen. Especially if it involves your future parents. It's not that they became your parents but it's HOW they become your parents. Fate says that they do but how.
@@timexyemerald6290I agree. Hell I'll even take Elena.
I wouldn't be so annoyed at the Kai thing if it wasn't for the fact that their were so many other better options. Like there was Julie, Ester, they could've just had Ben be single, that was also an option. Or had just left who his wife was in the future ambiguous. Hell Area would've been better, atleast Atea is funny!
you are 100% correct about the multiverse thing Ken was NEVER at risk of not existing. professor paradox tells ups in the episode ben 10 thousand returns that when ben went to the future the first time he traveled "cross-time" which was to mean he when into the future only diagonally to an alternate future rather than his own immediate future so no matter what Ken should exist.
Exactly, preech the facts!
Honestly I always felt that Ben should have gotten with Esther cause they had chemistry especially in her introduction episode, Ben is shown to actually like being around her and went on a few dates with her and didn't act like a jackass to her during them. Hell even in the episode that brought back Julie in Omniverse she wasn't jealous or questioning Ben about her and when Looma showed up (another girl that had feelings for him) and tried to marry him. She helped him fight Looma off, then afterwards went on a date together at the end of the episode. I just feel that Ben was better off with her than Kai plus I can see Ben hooking up with a alien girl more than a human I mean Grandpa Max did it TWICE.
Very true.
I think the reason she worked so well is because not only did she have a personality take could play of Ben's, but also because she actually had a whole life separate from him and the plot. Even if we don't see it that often just knowing it makes her feel like her own character and not just the "fill in the bank" love interest.
To be honest I'm conflicted between Julie and Esther... When I was a kid I'm more to Julie side and the time they spend together... Esther and Ben has a special bond and can work out. Just like you said I think Ben more suited with aliens girls because he spend most of his time with Aliens. We barely see the bond that supposed to be built between Kai and Ben making their relationship akward for me... Like there's less than 5 episode with her... How am I supposed to like her...
That’s what I thought then my thoughts were crushed when I saw the “time” episodes, I was like , “wth she was literally never seen for awhile, and this is what happens? Bull crap”
It also helps that their voiced by a married couple.
In my experience (as a woman,) whenever a guy says anything along the line of, "We're destined to be together." And especially when they bring in some kind of God or example like Romeo and Juliet, that sends up all the red flags and not want to take the chance going be found a week later in real bad shape.
I thought it meant he was going to buy my lunch
I'm a guy and I wouldn't take that much differently if a girl said those same things to me
@@ryankramer8779 True. Heck, I'm gay and, if a guy said that to me, I'd be weirded out.
I guess that mean you wouldn't like the Sailor Moon theme song then....
It translates to Moonlight destiny.
But I agree with the Romeo and Juliet thing.
If someone pulls the Romeo and Juliet, just reply with: "Weren't they kids? And dumb? And also died?"
"No, I sense I made a mistake of some kind" was the best quote in this video if you ask me and it was only tangentially related to the main point of the video.
That "Benkai" Pun while showing Ichigo's scene was clever, made me chuckle
The thing is, it's fine to have a couple that bickers and fights (in my opinion). But writers sometimes seem to forget they need to show why the couple is in love despite that; the bickering isn't what MAKES them a couple.
In my experience with bickering couples in stories, that’s solely what is focused on, they’re just constantly at each other’s throats.
@@thomasraines1396 yeah and I don't get why when 2 characters fight, other characters are like "aw young love"--unless they already know they like each other, it confuses me why arguing would make anyone assume so. it's possible but that wouldn't be my 1st thought
@@tiablue9106 I have no idea. It’s crazy.
Same thing with friendship sad in this quote. Fighting/arguing brings people closer.
They just want to copy the Gwen/Ben thing in the classic series.
Ben has more consistent chemistry with Rook than he had with any other relationship
Yes! They complement each other and are fun to watch together
As a certified Rook hater, even I agree.
@@Substantial-hf1rm Rook hater? Gtfo
Kai wanted to keep Ben as a DOG in season 1
The ship name are BenRook and OmniBoyfriends.
Even in canon it didn't make sense. They established a multiverse and Ben's future not being set in stone back in the OS, reinforced that with AF and even more explicitly in UA (with ultimate Ben and the forge of creation arc pulling the Ben from the RAT timeline to the present), and then Omniverse just goes all out with a whole time war with alternate timeline Bens. It makes absolutely no sense for "Spanner" to pull that shit, especially with a one off character who, at the very least, hasn't appeared in 8 years irl and 7 in the show. Ester should've been endgame too.
Also her voice acting was pretty weak
Thank you! Ester may not have been around much but honestly feel like she was the sole love interest that worked for ben after Julie was gone. Likes Ben for Ben, wants to hang out with regular Ben, can find something to like in all his forms and can hold her own in a fight with him.
Just imagine Omniverse with Ester as a constant companion that Ben actually interacted with instead of just a random appearance character.
@@DeprecatedSC From the random few episodes I saw there were a few with Ester and I really liked her so seeing this video feels awkward (I love story telling so I was hoping there'd be some more to it then just forcing another character and people conforming to fate). I didn't need to see them as a couple but watching this video did leave me wondering and less interested in watching through because if it feels forced and they don't subvert things it'll be really awkward watching through all that.
Daaamn going after the VA too?! 🤣
Good points though
@@DeprecatedSC Exactly, Ester was a good replacement for Julie. Honestly Ben and Ester had better chemistry than him and Kai. Plus Ester had enough screen time to pull it off.
Even better thing why they were so good with chemistry the voice actor of Esther is literally married to the voice actor of Ben, that's why they had so much good chemistry together and I wish they kept that if these guys weren't such boneheads, like they were so good together they had excellent chemistry they played off each other, every single time that Ben wanted to go back to their date and it felt like Ben actually did care and she did too I love that they had that but what did they do they screwed it up because fate Destiny b*******.
Ken: Ben and Kai have to get together or I won't exist!
Professor Paradox: well yes, but no, because cross time established literally in the previous series.
Their relationship explained
Ben and Kai:Arguments, Arguments, Arguments.
Everybody else:But you do love eachother, you have to.
You know, I actually never hated Kai... I just wanted her to cool eff the down, it didn't help that Omniverse kept making the ONLY option and reminding you that. If it didn't take so long for them to not totally hate each other with bickering, then maybe the hate would be tempered... Or not, what am I saying.
Did like her in the 10k future, too bad we didn't get more of that characterization.
To be honest, even though i never liked Kai very much even i still hated that they made her a forced love interest for Ben, forced canon shipping is just the worst well depending on the characters that is because there are some canon cartoon ships that weren't as forced and rushed as others. but those are just my thoughts.
She seems more suited as a rival than a love interest tbh
Their interactions kinda look like a classic boomer relationship imo? They fight every time, but it's "sexual tension"; they're rude each other (and others around), but it's "their dynamic"...
I pretty much agree this pairing failed in many ways. For one, if really dwelling more on it, the couple would've divorced in the future and their child from the future tries to keep them together out of fear. Going into the past would greatly risk making things worse. This was explored by fan writers where forced relationships are often doomed to fail. Things need to progress naturally and be explored to see if one person wants to be with another. Not to mention how their chemistries clashed during the initial episodes when they were older all before this forced pairing episode. And the whole bit of liking one "persona" over the other makes things complicated for a relationship where the one person doesn't accept all of the other, only one part. Such a thing in a relationship ain't healthy at all.
Or Ben and Kai divorced in front of Ken just to say "screw you!".
You know. The real problem with Kai that Sarcastic only barley touched on that's rather in your face once you realize it? They were trying to make Kai into Gwen from the original Ben 10 series. They were trying to basically give her the exacct same character and dynamic with Ben that he and Gwen had. LIke it or not Ben X Gwen is THE most popular ship in the entire franchise and it's clear that's what they wanted to re-capture with Kai.
Kai is basically meant to be the girl that checks ben's ego. Snarks with him. Argues with him and nags him when he's being...Ben.
Which is EXACTLY what Gwen was in the OG series.
But the problem is, they used the BAD parts of it.
WHat worked so well about Ben and Gwen on the OG series was that they had just as many moments of caring for eachother, being worried for eachother, protective of eachother and showing they will go to hell and back for the other without hesitation if anyone dares threaten or insult them.
It balanced the nagging and Ego checking and arguments with love and a strong bond.
As the video said, Omniverse was SO obessed with trying to be OG Ben 10 again that it's clear the creators looked at hte most popular ship Aka Ben X Gwen and tried to re-create that dynamic to make Kai and Ben work.
But it just made a much, much worse version of it as the creators took the BAD parts of that dynamic and pushed them onto Kai trying to make them work.
Still the incest is just to much especially the r34
It is disturbing that Gwen and Ben is the most popular ship.
@@Markus2E5I6 Not really. OG show added gwen as Ben's cousin last minute. She was suuppoused to be his best friend originally.
@@naciabell7903 yeah but the first episode and canon has them as cousins. The shippers know this from episode 1 and still decide to ship.
@@Markus2E5I6 Indeed. But the writing gives them tons of shipping moments and the like. Slow dancing scene in particualr. Although the dilaouge says one thing. Mulitple episodes have them in sitautions that much more imply a budding romantic relaitoship and closeness.
".....no. I sense I've made a mistake of some kind." Gotta love kevin and his ability to say hilarious things with a straight face
I said this on the Ben and Julie video but the biggest problem with Ben and Kai was the fact that she barely shows up in the series but the writers kept trying to force their relationship on us. It would've been easy to make her, Ben, and Rook the new trio or have her just be more recurring just in general but I think she shows up in like six episodes in Omniverse and from that we're supposed to believe her and Ben are soulmates or something. Hell Ester wasn't around that much either but I still rooted for her and Ben more(maybe it was because the VAs are married)
Cool VA detail would've been cool if it went down that way instead, they could've also thrown things around at some point perhaps (wrong timeline or Ben his son going villain over it (I haven't seen the show fully but based on this video's complaints I make these assumptions)).
Ben and Ester should've been endgame. Eunice would also be interesting but Ester is just overall better. But yeah, the crew was never good at writing Ben's love life.
Honestly Ester x ben was my ship in childhood but after realizing it turns out i just shiped Ester with my self lmao
Ester works cause you know, the actually wrote her like a functioning starting relationship interest. If they'd made her a constant throughout the series instead of random appearances I honestly feel like she would be someone no one would even question being Ben's endgame interest.
At the end of the day, Julie just wanted a normal life without having to deal with Ben's alien craziness and having to be kidnapped all the time. At the end of the day bed needed somebody that understood that he was an alien Hero and also had powers of her own
So it wouldn't be a problem, and that was definitely Ester. Because who better to understand the person who could transform into any alien than an alien herself ?
Also, I'm not entirely sure how Eunice would work. Considering that she's just a prototype omnitrix AI thing. It could called the question would really makes a human a human, and that love conquers all despite her being a machine. But I'm not sure the show would have the nuanced for the show to handle
4:42 "Rook is Best Boi"
12:30 *Draws a crown on said Best Boi*
13:49 (Speaks for itself)
10,000/10 video. You sir, know what you're talking about.
Someone knows their stuff rook is best boi and should be treated as such.
The whole bit with Rook and Ben freeze frame is golden.
Hope the next video is about them
When your four-show franchise's main character's most popular ships (and the ones that are probably the easiest to justify from a purely character interaction perspective) are his cousin from the first series and his partner in the last series, I think it's time to admit that creating girls for the purpose of being his girlfriend isn't working and just make an actual recurring character.
Heck I've seen people ship reboot Ben with Kevin, Gwen, and even glitch instead of making a reboot version of the love interestes. That's how bad it is.
That's really sad. His own cousin and his partner are the only ships that work compared to other love interests. Just wow.
@@JayRedGear Yap.
You know you fucked up when fans prefer INCEST over your official ship.
They just need to give him a partner, who isn't related to to him and is coincidentally a girl. It doesn't even have to be romantic at first, that kinda thing can progress slowly in the background
Ben and Kai are "pre-determined love interest syndrome" taken to its worst extreme.
Kai’s whole episode was about why childhood crushes don’t work she was never supposed to be Ben’s endgame. Ben had more chemistry with his villainesses then with Kai
@Dr. Jay
Yep, ben had far more chemistry (both romantic and sexual) with his villainesses Charmcaster, Turbine,
Swift, Frightwing, and Elena,
Heck, he has more chemistry with Kevin compared to Kai.
@@naquingreen1603 If they really wanted to. They could have ship him with Charmcaster. It would be so fun when He meet Gwen and Kevin
Same energy as that one Jello Apacolypse video
"Danny and Sam like each other because....they're protagonists."
I feel like most people can agree that even though the relationship wasnt that great at all, ben and Esther were the best ben pairing in omniverse
0:23 Honestly I, and probably many others, started hating her after her debut episode in the original series when it turned out she was only interested in Ben , because he was going through a furry phase.
She's a perfect (unintentional, but perfect) chaser allegory. She doesn't respect Ben and doesn't like him for who he is, she just fetishizes him because he's exotic. I genuinely cheered when Gwen told her off for treating Ben like that, I feel like it was a good message for kids: "don't settle for the first person who gives you attention because they may not actually love you"
18:20 JEEEESUS! With the context of him being THEIR SON from THE FUTURE, you know how that sounds? "Yeah, my parents didn't get along until I was born. Meaning these two were a bickering mess that didn't get resolved until the bun in the oven was cooked"
Lol well damn,
Holy shit you're right!!!
They were literally forced to get together so this kid can get born, no wonder they didn't like each other, imagine getting forced together so a person isn't killed especially
I think two issues I have with Kai, which may be petty, that you didn’t bring up are:
1) Her constant arguments with Ben kind of highlight how childish he is and how much growth from previous shows was retconned
2) Kai being worthy of Excalibur when Ben, the guy who has literally saved the universe countless times and is literally the only reason every single person in it is alive today, isn’t just screamed of an attempt to convince fans that she wasn’t as toxic as she came across as to me
I mean I can definitely see Ben not being worthy, just because you are a great hero doesn't mean you would make a good king.
Being worthy was never Excalibur’s thing, it’s more of a bloodline thing which would mean only those related to King Arthur could pull it from the stone.
@@Andrew-Bastin but she’s Native American, how would she be related to a British king?
@@MadameTamma she’s probably not actually directly descended from King Arthur but they could share a common ancestor, but in all honesty the writers likely didn’t know about this aspect of Arthurian Legend and got the rules of Excalibur mixed up with Marvel’s Mjölnir.
@@MadameTamma The British stole the sword from America XD
Ben x Rook in my opinion is the superior ship.
If anything they should have given Kai what she always wanted, an alien boyfriend. That would have been an interesting if they explored that.
I see Kai & Ben more as frienemies and Kai could always be that person that cuts right through Ben's ego straight and brutally. Giving him the harshness everyone around him doesn't. Obviously out of care
Rook is perfect for Ben cuz he is at the same time supportive and makes ben more humble, is smart enough to tell Ben when he has a dumb idea and ben helps rook be more relaxed and less uptight.
@@aleksabanjevic8316 Again the superior ship
@@aleksabanjevic8316 Exactly, Rook helps Ben be a better person without having to be an ass about it. Even while Kai and Ben were supposed to have their moments and bicker, I couldn’t help but notice how many times Rook throws an amusing smile at something Ben says. Rook understands Ben and is fond of him more than probably all of the love interests Ben had
@@niki7411 rook and Ben also argue from time to time, but it never feels like they h8 each other, just that they are slightly annoyed with the others actions
@@aleksabanjevic8316 Yeah I was gonna add about that too, them arguing feels more well written and could actually count as couple bickering that the writers tried going for with Kai
Honestly I never finished Omniverse, but just from this video I feel like it would have been much more fun for Spanner's episode if his aggressive shipping ended up explicitly causing a different timeline by trying to force it too early. Or at the very least, delaying it longer than it would have otherwise by making it weird.
Or maybe show that while it worked in his timeline, it won't work in all timelines
the "Trope Talk: Romantic Subplots" video by Overly Sarcastic Productions explains overall the problem with how this show handled romance and why so many writers overall fail at writing compelling love stories since they just slant the characters into pre-existing dynamics instead of trying to develop them organically.
"He was a boy. She was a girl. Can I make it any more obvious?"
Ironically enough it feels like Ben and Rook's relationship (albeit just a friendship) is the most well developed and interesting one in the series lol
Hi, little late to the party, but yes.
Probably also helps that there’s no “choking the red string of fate” as it were where, with Ben and Kai, the idea of them being together was a certainty from the jump, making the usual will-they-won’t they BS have less weight that it usually does.
With Ben and Rook, it also helps that it’s not just him interacting with her and villains. It’s stories where both of them are the main characters interacting with most people in it.
It also doesn’t help that Ben 10 has a… slanted attitude towards character relationships.
Here’s a question; outside of enemies, how many relationships does Kai have outside of Ben?
I always hated when everyone in a series/movie talks over and over about how great character a and b are together regardless on how good the couple actually is , is like the writers are patting themselves in the back
Miraculous Ladybug is the main culprit for this problem. Now, every time I hear someone in any show quote that phrase, it just makes me internally cringe
@@ehimemaidumu Agree, a ship/pairing has to earn it´s praise , "show don't tell" is a really important rule
Yeah that's pretty bad.
@@ehimemaidumu Bruh, I was thinking the same thing.
As i recall both of the first two Ben 1000 ones happened in the OG show, where Kevin WAS still a villain. Each time he was different, because of time travel. Each time 1000 and 10 met, it veered 10 into a different path. The most recent future ep, not only showed Kevin as a good guy, but also married to Gwen.
Nah its the same timeline they retconned it because cartoon network
Which makes it all the more confusing that Ben X Kai is the only constant in an ever-changing timeline
@@schemar17 Which makes no sense. Why even retcon it when multiverse theory is the basis of Ben 10? And it literally goes against the whole thing of Ben's future changing each time he meets his future version or each time something related to time travel happens.
@@JayRedGear because cartoon network wanted omniverse to tie in with the classic series that's why there are episodes of kid ben
@@schemar17 source: trust me bro
I love how you bluntly noted the whole "trying really hard to capture the relationship between Ben and Gwen but without using Gwen since that'd be incestuous."
If they were gonna make her endgame, she should have been there early on in Omniverse. Also, she’s just toxic. She wasn’t just balancing Ben’s ego she was outright trying to put him down. She was just mean. And then suddenly not.
Btw in defense of Eunice, while Gwen was the sample DNA the Unitrix scanned. It randomized the DNA to be wholly removed from the Tennyson family tree. She has unique DNA.
If Julie had broken up with Ben because their lives became incompatible as she continued her tennis career, it could have a bittersweet ending and wouldn’t have caused such a fan rage fest as what they did, which was disrespecting her character and any fans of her, it’d have given Ben the chance to start a new relationship and if they had written that organically they could’ve made the relationship with Kai even better.
Relationships, particularly from a writing standpoint, is ultimately meant to help the protagonist improve as a person in some way, which neither of the relationships they put Ben in actually did. Romantic arcs are some of the easiest things to write, the formula has been perfected, it’s why I get so baffled when professional writers mess it up! Maybe it’s because they never actually learnt about romance as a genre and are clueless of the fact there’s so many resources out there on how to make a romance organic. Even if you don’t intend to write romance as a genre, you’re crazy not to study it as nearly every story has a subplot involving a relationship.
For characters that don’t initially like each other but become a couple later, you need to show the audience WHY they belong together before the characters themselves even know it (and no, not with a time traveler just telling you), but also show both characters have a flaw, inner wound or false belief that stands in the way of them getting together and makes them “not ready yet” for a romance, meaning they get together when they individually improve as characters/overcome their flaw.
To any writers out there, even if you don’t care about romance/shipping, take some time to learn how to write one anyway, as a badly written romantic subplot can ruin characters and even the entire story, which you definitely don’t want happening!
If anything Rook should of been Ben's spouse in the future. Ken was adopted.
Agreed! And Kai being Ken's surrogate mom would be an easy way to keep Ken as their kid canon
I just head cannon now that they started dating after the finale when they started travelling the galaxy but had to brake up so that Ken can be born, and they had an emotional brake up but were both mature enough at that point to make the right decision.
That or ben is cheating on kai with rook in the future stolas style. It wouldn't be the first time he cheated.
Julie is definitely not Ben's most popular non-incestuous ship, she's third at best. Kevin and Rook are easily his most popular non-incestuous ships. I think even Rex might beat her out and he was a crossover character.
It's funny how he had to say non incestuous 1st. But also kinda disgusting.
Its the fact that Rook and Ben have more chemisty compared to his love interests thats what makes them more compelling
@@crestren5996 Ben is not gay or lgbtq at tho.
@@michaeltaylor788 what does orientation have to do with character chemistry?
@@coldfrost3 shipping is about who you have a relationship with and your sexual orientation matters more or less(depending on the person) one Ben has depicted as straight two ben not into incest(until writers show otherwise one and two I mean ) so he would end up with a female not biologically related to him (or choose to be alone ).
Me: *The moment Kai interrupts Rook* "UNLEASH THE DOGS OF WAR!!!"
One thing I want to see is an official Ken 10 series that focuses on Ken, with a subplot of Ben and Kai getting a divorce. It helps the haters see them apart, but also could show that even in a divorce, both parents can and do love the child/children
Would have made a great twist as to why he wanted Ben and Kai to get together. His parents were divorcing so he went back in time to try and get them together.
I didn’t watch much of this franchise after they regressed Ben’s personality. But I remember a little of Ester, and thinking Ben and her worked well enough. This “fate” crap with Kai just feels like they wasted the audience’s time. It’s like Marco x Kelly. Why set up something so good, when the writers never had any intention of it being anything?
at least Star VS was smart enough to realize that bonding Star and Marco through fate was a bad idea and eventually did away with that nonsense, that doesn't excuse all the other problems with that shows shipping but they at least figured that one out.
@@anthonyrodriguez8788 which brings the questions what was the point of the blood moon bullshit?!
@@valentinkambushev4968 The point was that the writers thought being “soulmates” was super romantic. But when the fanbase addressed how problematic it was, the writers went “oops” and hastily wrote it out in a sloppy episode.
@@arellajardin8188
Hot take:
I don't think that episode was sloppy. Tom shows regret for trying to use the blood moon. Also he has a relative who tells of the dark side of removing blood moon curse.
Something really insidious about how they chose to characterize Kai and connect it with Ben 10,000, and honestly I'm shocked it wasn't even touched upon in the video, is that (if I remember correctly) the episode that introduced that future either heavily implies or flat out states that future Ben spends most of his time in Alien mode non-stop; couple this with the personality trait that his "destined" wife only seemed interested in Ben while in Alien mode ... are we supposed to NOT get the impression that this is a trait she never grew out of and was encoraging or worse imposing on Ben during their marriage? This has disturbing spousal abuse connotations, because again (if I remember correctly) in that first episode the only person future Gwen felt had a chance of talking future Ben into accepting/embracing his human self was the Ben he used to be - before he had ever met Kai.
Feel free to point out to me if any part of this position is based on bad memories or rampent biases, just don't be a d*ck about it.
nope, you remember it perfectly.
I just thought they were getting kinky
Damn that’s messed up.
The only thing somewhat off here is that we don't get any indication that Ben is with anyone in the initial Ben 10,000 episode. It doesn't seem like he has a son yet, and isn't dating or married to anyone either. Of course, by the time we see him again in the second Ben 10,000 episode, he has gotten past the Always Alien issue. I'm not immediately sure if there is much of anything to indicate how much time has passed between the first and second 10,000 episodes, though.
Ultimately, there isn't any direct counter-evidence to this interpretation, but there is a lack of evidence one would generally expect to exist if it were true.
Ben is 30 in “Ben 10’000” and doesn’t have any kind of social life outside of being a superhero, so it highly unlikely that he’s in a relationship with anyone at this point, while in “Ken 10” he’s 42 and has a 10 year old son, so Kai only got with Ben after he has long since stopped being alien all the time.
Ben had more chemistry with Rook in Omniverse lol
And that's why there is so many fanfics of these two
Give me gay Ben, please.
@@darksev.6468 Hell i wouldn't mind if he was secretly bi!
Yeah
@@cookiegacha2701 he has the waybiggest bi energy
"Gwen, you have to treat a car like you would treat a woman."
"Go on."
"...No... I sense I've made a mistake of some kind."
LOL I friggin' LOVE that exchange!
For real 😂😊
28:13
The weird thing about this ship is that it never explicitly says that Ben and Kai become a couple in the future. Just that he “Meets back up with her in the future.”
Kai didn’t have to be Ben’s wife in the future. Making her the endgame. Hell she could have just been another girl in his life. But the creators just push it so hard trying to call it “fate.” That when you combine how little chemistry they have, how shallow she seems being infatuated with Ben’s alien forms and not him, and how fast the they push this. It just makes the relationship a complete disaster.
Just remember this Kai only liked Ben when he transformed into aliens but nothing else she really didn’t care about him at least Julie liked Ben and not his aliens
Oh, I could write a whole thesis on this ship, and I just might; it is everything wrong when writing a romantic relationship.
Kai would have worked better as a rival than a love interest, in my opinion. Like in Kim Possible, when she faced a rival agent Will Du, they were matched in skill, and both wanted to lead the mission. And by the end, both were humbled and bettered themselves as people and heroes.
The girl you met 7 years ago, over 3 days, starts acting as if she knows you. That would be off-putting to anyone, let alone someone as combative as Ben. They go together like water and grease fire, and somehow the writer thinks that's cute. It's like they heard the phrase "argue like an old married couple" and ran with it. Forgetting that these are young teens and that if they can't even agree on simple things like what direction to go. How are they going to handle things like buying a house, where to move, and who's family do we see during the holidays?
These two are the type to sleep together once, try to make the relationship work for a year, and then break up. Cue the sigh of relief from all their friends and families who had to put up with the non-stop arguing.
Water and a Grease Fire !!! roflmao Maybe it was an attempt to put some "color" in the show It can't be a coincidence the Kai happens to be a Navajo native american
Kevin’s set of lines at the end of the video was more entertaining than all of the Ben x Kia interactions in the show.
i only ever read the comments to find someone who pointed that out your right
indeed i dont even ship kevin adn gwen and i do see the appeal they have chmesitry
im a gwen x charmcaster shipper if your curious
@@ladyaceina woah. How much chemistry does Gwen and charmcaster got?
@@kermitgotthesickkicks4265 enough for my dumb lesbian ass to ship um :P
@@ladyaceina Going to have to disagree with this one. Charmcaster is like 15-16 minimum in the OS and in her 20s in the sequel series. Gwen is 10 in the OS and 15-16 in the sequel series. That age gap is not one I can get behind
Shows that mature with their audiences often tend to go down in history a lot better.
Ben's son was the real villain all along.
Coincidentally, I started getting back into this series about when you started making these videos. Appreciate these.
Along with the Julie video, I am suddenly invested in the writing of a franchise I hadn't really followed in over a decade
Even Ester is kinda of a sad ship, since Ben is shown to be kinda childish with her in dates (like with Julie or Kai). The ultimate enemy are the CN executives making Ben act like a kid when his a Teen.
Ester was the best for ben
Kai and Ben are not a great couple, but I still stand by the air duct scene being 10/10 banter. "How can there be two main halls!?" Is one of my favorite jokes in the series.
I am just gonna pretend that since ben saw his future self in the finale, the future changed and they didn't end up together.
This is why I ship things I know won’t happen. Like Ben X Kevin, or Ben X Rook, or Ben X Ben cause he’d totally do it.
Not sure if this refers to other universes or him using echo-echo or ditto, but both work
Important question, though; which other Ben?
Honestly Omniverse kinda f-ed over almost every female character in the show, Gwen was brought back to her naggy child self (though i did appreciate her comimg back to the mystic roots, i love AF but my only problem with it was that everything had to be about aliens, it made the world seem smaller), Charmcaster was just turned into the crazy ex-girlfriend trope, Julie and Kai have already been addressed in your videos, Ester was fun but really came across as manic pixie dream girl (at least in her introduction, i genuinely cant remember if she developed further), the tetramand woman whose only personality trait was wanting to marry someone, the only female character who wasnt screwed over was Kevin's dog🤣😂 Rook is best boi, doggo is best girl
Pfft, ma vreedle got some more development I guess! In a round about way..wonder what was up with eight eight
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 agreed
to be fair I feel like Gwen never really stops being naggy like she was always kind of there to tell Ben and Kevin off from their crazier antics even in AF and UA
Gwen being naggy adds to her character I feel. It's not like she needs to be mature and perfect over achiever.
huh you made me learn about my issues with most animes
Its overly reliance usage of Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope
I feel like they could've made Kai work if they'd introduced her at the beginning of the show and made her a constant, part of the gang like Rook. She'd have a similar trope to gwen in the original series for people to latch on to, could've gotten actual development, and make the relationship form more naturally. But instead they forgot about her and had to awkwardly jam her into the plot
and yet they forget that with each new watch, there's yet another new future and another ben 10,000.
Honestly when a show forces a love interest *coughStarco* I'm less than thrilled.
"She remains the most popular non incentuos ship with ben"
Kevin and Charmcaster:am i a joke to you???????
I’ve read a few Ben and Charmcaster fanfics, there’s one I found that I really enjoy.
@@thomasraines1396 it would fit in the time line where ben is the one having anodite heritage and maybe gwen had the omnitrix
@@sebastiansuazo2734 oh damn.
...That's a ship? I can guess where it comes from, but really?
@@flarestorm9417 it’s fanfiction after a while you just stop being surprised, at least that’s my experience.
16:25 heck, Julie was also doing that sometimes with ship whenever it involved ship. Heck, she and Ben could have been this dynamic couple/duo fighting crime together and the villains (and Kevin) groaning at their "subtle" flirting. Their relationship could have been more open and affectionate, which would contrast that of Gwen's and Kevin's more hand down and "cool" approach. Basically what I'm trying to say is I wish Julie and Ben were more lovey dovey in the show than what we actually got (jerkwad Ben)
exactly
she was screwed way back in the original series where she was a horrid person and only liked ben when she thought he was a where wolf
Exactly! She acted like a chaser, just bad vibes overall. Ben deserves better.
I distinctly remember hating Kai after the way she treated Ben when they introduced the Yenaldooshi.
She just gave me bad vibes.
Since the time-line branches whenever time travel happens, it would've been great if through Ben's son's meddling he stopped Ben and Kai from getting together when they would've slowly fallen in love with one another naturally without all the pushing in the time-line Omniverse ended up being in because of their son's interference.
It’s actually kind of dark in universe that the original Ben 10,000 future is the canon one when you think about it. Like can you imagine being Ben and thinking that you changed your original future and the whole turning evil crap with Kevin being done for good with him dating your cousin for years only for it to eventually happen again and see him beating the ever living shit out of your son and his own son and having to beat him within a inch of his life as waybig. It gets even more dark when you remember all of Kevin’s and Ben’s more friendly interactions from Alien Force and Ultimate Alien and the more serious interactions like Kevin’s time as Ultimate Kevin when Ben was about to straight up kill him.
Edit: do you guys think Ben realizing that all of his struggles to make a different future for himself and to redeem Kevin was all for nothing a good story? Cause it could possibly develop more of his character and have some self reflection for him? I just realize how it would make a interesting story
It would be dope for a non Ben prime universe because Kevin prime is too good and as interestimg as it sounds, I think it will be bad to write this story after all the development because it will end like troll hunters
I legitimately remember being so relieved when Kevin became such a good character that it was obvious that the Ben 10,000 thing couldn't possibly be canon. It's shitty that they keep trying to make it fit.
@@Nightman221k Say what you want about the reboot continuity but at least it wasn’t screwed over as bad as the original continuity
Original run Kevin was written in such a way that he was likely always a villain and never reformed. From introduction to the second future episode. In that timeline, he and Gwen were never a thing. I do wonder who his partner was though, and how Kevin got out of the Null Void only to get sent back in after conceiving a kid.