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Another thing to consider is what the increased operating temperature will allow. If the cells can operate safely and reliably at significantly higher and lower temperature than their lithium counterparts, then possibly the battery heating / cooling liquid systems can be eliminated. Eliminating this liquid system within the pack can therefore increase the energy density (and volumetric density) at the PACK level (as apposed to the cell level). These liquid systems are also a large cause of battery system failures as well, as there are numerous connection points internal to the pack and if they start leaking, the pack is ruined. This has been a common failure in many mainstream EV's. If you don't have to have a liquid cooling system in your pack, then that reduces pack cost as well.
cents per cycles are more expensive cycles matter and na-ion are rated about the same as ncm, so half the cycles of lithium phosphate, so 15% discount for about half the cycles and at a lower density will need either more cycles or high density to rival other chemistry, at least a couple of generations away imho with larger scale prices will drop much more than 15%, manufacturers sound really confident in high densities in future generations, the amount of investment at this stage does back that confidence although this is china after all and not real private companies, they'll want an alternative to lithium to insulate themselves from limited access to resources
@@pegefounder Most megapacks are transported in their own container and are typically the size of a Semi trailer to reduce cost and complexity. The transportation costs of $5,000 to $20,000 depending on location, are a small portion of the overall price which typically run about a million dollars per unit. You would need additional units to match the same output and that would be a significant cost if the Sodium units are not cheaper.
@@pegefounderI would hope megapacks are put on the sites of decomissioned fossil fuel plants, or other such "brownfield" sites, where the land is dirty, polluted and unwanted, but also there's already beefy grid connections ready to go.
In Canada and parts of North America It can and will get to -20•C sometimes even -30 or feels like it outside. So these Battery improvements are much more needed then just Alaska lol
The weak point of LFP is not so much the discharge temperature, although these improvements are welcome, the main problem is that LFP cannot be charged at temperatures below zero and only slowly at temperatures that are slightly above that. It doesn't seem like this battery changes that.
It happened with flat TVs. I remember when a crappy 42" 720p plasma was $10,000. Now a huge 4k is less than one solar panel. Batteries are a LOT easier to make than TVs and no reason for them to expensive other than lack of production.
@@frankcoffey This happens with most new technologies and is clearly happening with batteries as well. I'm curious how politics will effect the market in the US as it's pretty obvious that CATL is way ahead of any western manufacturer.
@@icosthop9998 And how does this effect the import and licensing of battery tech? He's spoken of banning battery manufacturers licensing Chinese tech, but then he's also said he'd be open to CATL building a US plant. It will be interesting see what actually happens.
@@markthomasson5077 US is already producing more oil that ever before. Meanwhile, China is set to take over world auto market with affordable, quality EVs and battery innovations that leave the West stunned. Top oil executives are not stupid, they can read writing on the wall. Just a matter of time before global EV adoption drops the demand and price of oil forever. Many execs will already be planning their exit strategies. Meanwhile, same oil execs will keep promoting same old mindless slogans like 'drill, baby drill" so to leacve leave the lo-info rubes holding the empty investment bag when the whole thing collapses.
The country has been so use to creating its own reality that it decided to do so against the science again. We lost by going against the scientific principles of economics by simply disregarding it. We declare that economics can not be understood scientifically. Which said more about our attitude than that of the discipline. We lost that one and then as if that's not enough, we moved on to declare that alternative energy is neither essential nor necessary and of course we've lost that one too. Guess who didn't follow our lead? Yes you are right, if you said China!!
Dear Electric Viking. you need to stop opening videos with "AI predicts..." AI is not what you think it is and it cannot predict this stuff. Read a couple Google AI overviews and you'll realize these things are not really comprehending what they are saying. AI programs with specific jobs to do, like evaluate chemical compounds for desirable characteristics can be incredibly powerful, but this idea that we are approaching human level intelligence general AI is absolute nonsense. Chat GPT is dumb as bricks and easily manipulated. You do yourself a disservice when you start a video this way.
You're focusing your attention on the wrong part of the video . And I disagree with you about chatGPT. It's much smarter than you at most intellectual tasks even if it makes some silly mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes including newton and Einstein. And those mistakes are being eradicated on a daily basis . I think your mindset on AI will change in the very near future
Disagree. Choice of words for a quick update is in no way meant to be as precise as a doctoral thesis - it's meant to convey an overall concept. This was perfectly appropriate given it's context, timing, breadth. Chill.
Sam Evans use of AI doesn't mention whether it is USA-based AI or China-based AI neither AI are the same, especially, AI already used in industrial practice, or military practice (both a norm in China; but not yet in the USA)
AI is used for finding patterns currently. And what do you think standing a pattern out which logical conclusion would be called. Would prediction fit that bill
I am looking forward to seeing the commercial scale of LMFP. We need energy density in EVs of 350Wh/Kg to match or even exceed range parity with ICE. All these EVs with 200-250km range fuel the FUD and slow down the transition.
a 30KW atkinson cycle petrol generator with 45% thermal efficiency, in a 2000kg PHEV, with a 60KWh battery and a 60L fuel tank, would have a range of 1500km and no need to charge on long trips, just fuel up and keep going. charge for the daily drive, petrol for long trips. EV sales are dropping because at this point everyone knows someone who bought one and learned the hard way what the limitations are, its a great technology but the EV evangelists are setting everyone up for dissapointment.
@@JedPotts-jv2ux parts, maintenance headaches, and you're still tied to dirty, polluting exhaust fumes-it's like trying to solve modern problems with outdated tools. As for range anxiety? That’s being tackled head-on with advancements in BEV tech. With energy density moving past 400 Wh/kg using LMFP chemistry-something that’s not far off-we’ll soon have affordable BEVs with 1,400 km of pure EV range. By that time, BEVs will also be far cheaper than ICE vehicles, thanks to falling battery costs and simpler manufacturing. PHEVs? They’ll feel like rotary phones in a smartphone world. Keep it simple, clean, and efficient-BEVs are the future. And let’s set the record straight: EV sales are not dropping. The world is on track to sell 12.3 million BEVs in 2024, up from 9.5 million in 2023, 7.3 million in 2022, and 4.7 million in 2021. That’s BEVs only-not counting PHEVs. BEV sales have tripled in just four years, showing a clear shift towards electrification. Even with some regional fluctuations-like a 7% dip in Europe in June 2024 due to changing incentives-the global trend is undeniable. BEVs are becoming mainstream because they’re simpler, cleaner, and increasingly affordable. PHEVs? They’ll be obsolete before you know it. EVs are the future, and the sales numbers back it up.
@@EVCurveFuturist ok cool, i guess emissions regulations on ICE vehicles are unneccesary then, along with all the EV subsidies and tax benefits, because its just a clearly superior technology. Toyota can profitably build and sell the 2024 Hilux Champ for $13,000 USD. it even has airconditioning! only problem is neither the US government nor the australian government will allow their citizens to buy them. i'd like to place an order for an EV with 1000km range, 1000kg load capacity and 2500kg towing capacity, that can charge in 5 minutes, for under $13,500USD... do you know where i can find one? on a more serious note, i already own an EV, i paid $68k AUD for it and it was worth every cent, i love it. but i also know that EVs would be nothing more toys for rich people without heavy government interference in the market. arguments over "which is more affordable" have literally nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with government subsidies and regulations. the funniest part is they're too dumb to incentivise workplace charging so EVs can charge from solar during the day rather than having to charge from coal at night. from an engineering perspective EVs are ridiculously cool, like one of the coolest things humanity has ever done, its why they were first invented way back in 1835, decades before ICE vehicles were invented, the simple brilliance cannot be matched in technological terms... but from an economics perspective we should not delude ourselves, EVs are fancy champagne in a world where most people can barely afford box wine, a luxury we are lucky to have experienced during its brief moment in the sun, before the "ban all cars!" people pry our steering wheels from our cold dead hands and the survivors are forced to use public transport or walk everywhere.
What do you mean by "artificial intelligence predicts"? Do you mean that something like ChatGPT was trained on news paper articles and it therefore summarized the idea that sodium will be the most popular? Or do you mean that someone built a predictive model based on several market parameters and that predictive model says that it's statically likely that sodium will be dominant? If it's the former, then what you said was meaningless. It's just summarizing text. If it's the latter then there's some basis, but like weather forecasts you can't rely much on it.
Asked my local mistral7b: >>> Will sodium ion batteries reach 200 Wh/kg energy density? Predicting the exact energy density that sodium-ion batteries will achieve is challenging, as it depends on ongoing research and technological advancements. However, current laboratory sodium-ion batteries have demonstrated specific energy densities around 150-200 Wh/kg, which already surpasses some commercially available lithium-ion batteries. It's possible that sodium-ion batteries could reach or even exceed the 200 Wh/kg mark in the future; however, it will require continuous research and development efforts to optimize various aspects of these batteries. >>> When will this happen? It is difficult to provide an exact timeline for when sodium-ion batteries will reach a specific energy density like 200 Wh/kg because technological advancements can be unpredictable and depend on multiple factors, including research breakthroughs, funding, industrial support, and market demand. Some estimates suggest that it may take several years to decades before commercial sodium-ion batteries achieve the desired energy density, but progress is being made steadily in this field. As more research unfolds, we can expect to see improved battery performance over time, with the goal of developing affordable, safe, and environmentally friendly energy storage solutions for various applications.
Yeah, he does seem to think he's asking some sentient hyper-computer that predicts the future. It's just summarising articles (including lots of marketing press releases) it finds online.
Seems that the choice between Sodium and LiFePO4 will shift when Sodium Ion has LONGEVITY/Cycle Life >= LiFePO4. Longevity is a major driver of cost of fixed storage and ability to remove cold weather performance concerns will seal the change to Sodium Ion batteries in storage.
AI also said Abraham Lincoln was a Democrat. Also disclaimers saying don't use AI for research papers. Everything else might be true in the video, but AI doesn't add any weight to the discussion.
@@ericmc6482 trumps ex lawyer cohen who perjured himself countless times, during verbal testimony and also when submitting AI generated fake court rulings in support of his position to the judge he was also the only witness/testimony in the trump hush money trial, where he perjured himself AGAIN and they call trump a felon based on that shame conviction honestly the judge needs to be debarred, the most absurd lawfare ever, they'll be writing about it for centuries
The problem of Na batteries is the very wide voltage difference between charged and discharged is a very linear curve and BMS can't handle that big gap. I believe next gen are LMFP or maybe solid sate.
Thats a good point - have ordered some for testing and will use them with a buck / boost DC DC converter to keep Output voltage constant while the input Ranges from 6V to 15V
You can build a BMS to handle what ever range of voltage you need to handle. This is not a problem at all for a BMS, unless you are trying to use a BMS designed for Li Ion or LFP on Na, but that would just be dumb.
Yea, right now the cells are 3.9 to 4.0 volts, in a 100Ah battery this is 16 volts!! In an RV the inverter will shut down with a high voltage alarm. Hopefully they get the circuits down and BMS to be compatible. Right now, that is a big NO.
Do you have a comparison video where you show the different kinds of battery compositions, how the suffer, etc? Like what the early EVs used, all the way up to CATL today Thank you for your time
Hi Sam, love the content. I’m a big believer in hemp and wondering more about hemp cell batteries and where they are at and what the composition would look like?
Hey mate, been following for a while. Was wondering, do you know of any companies in China that do contract manufacture of BESS (battery energy storage systems) like could assemble modules into packs in mass production? Thanks in advance
Yes, when they are available. China makes PHEVs with pretty big LFP batteries, like 44kwh on the Li L9. A same size sodium battery will have around 30kwh.
Not to mention environmental cost reduction. Sodium is far more plentiful and less environmentally harmful than lithium mining. But the big key on the consumer side is safety, safety, safety vs lithium, while the low temp ability makes all the balking in cold climates a mute point.
I said this months ago !!! Don't need to use AI to know that. Once there's ubiquitous supercharging, lower range of sodium ion batteries will become irrelevant.
The battery that will take over is Lyten's lithium sulfur battery. They are already shipping samples and are building a $1B gigafactory. The anode is almost pure Lithium, so solid state batteries are in for a hurting. The cathode is a patented graphite process and can be tuned on a molecular level. The cathode is how they solved the problem others have with sulfur. Lyrens Li-S battery is 60% lighter than LFP and has the potential to reach 900 wH/Kg. Military is sampling their batteries now for drones. Also, existing LFP factories can be converted as there is 90% overlap in capital equipment.
Thank you for that info. Checking 'em out now. I'm interested in marine applications - commercial inland and coastal shipping, ferrries, tugs etc., as well as recreational boats - and what battery technologies might be brought to bear in that market, where gravimetric energy density is critical.
Every coastal country should be building Desalination Plants & pipe clean water across all continents & countries. The salt taken from ocean water could be used to build batteries. This would also help reduce ocean levels. The more batteries every country can build the more energy they can store. If they also build & install Bifacial Solar Panel Fencing in all major roads in countries all over the world not only could they produce an abundance of energy they could transport energy along all their highway systems across continents & across every country on earth. Of course, there are lots of people against creating a world of abundance because scarcity increase prices while abundance reduces prices & those greedy people always want more $ not less.
Do you think we can lower sea levels by pumping the water out? Seriously? Have you even the faintest idea how much energy is required for desalination? Solar panels cannot be used to distribute power, only to generate it. Yes of course we should be building renewable energy infrastructure as fast as we can. The rate of expansion in this area is exponential you'll be happy to know.
Me gustaría saber tu opinión sobre la empresa NATRON, que está construyendo una fábrica de baterías de sodio y azul de Prusia en los Estados Unidos. Gracias
Battery tech in general is improving all of the time, as sodium batteries get better so will lithium batteries. Ditto prices. All of the content of this video is conjecture and AI conjecture at that. It looks likely to me that we will be using all battery chemistries in the near to medium term, simply because demand is so high and growing. Good to see the great strides forward in all battery technology, sad to see how far behind the west is in this field.
not sure the juice is worth the squeeze for grid scale energy storage 30% cheaper than lithium ion phosphate but with also ~50% less cycles 3rd gen na-ion is probably too early, manufacturers are really optimistic about future density growth, might have to wait a couple more generations
The big breakthrough will be non flammable electrolyte. Sodium Ion batteries haven't solved that issue. Whether solid state or inflammable liquid or gel, it's something needed. The fire risk of battery packs, EV or otherwise, is usually catastrophic in nature. It may may happen less often in a Tesla, but once they go.... A beautiful 3400sqft house I used to live in burnt down recently because of charging lithium batteries in the golf cart. If we are to be an electric battery society we really need to address that.
It its a case of being cheaper for roughly the same energy density and charge time, sodium would be the no-brainer. If its a case of the mountain climbing company is offering a 30 percent discount from the completion but their ropes aren't as strong, consumers will think twice before buying them.
Its a bit more like the 2nd anoligy you listed, Sodium batteries will be heavier than Lithium - ok for stationary storage but impacts efficiency of vehicles. Also, has a wider voltage range making the charging/inverter electronics more complex and costly.
The general public are not bothered wether they are sodium or lithium give them a battery than can do 700 miles for a certain price and longevity and that is when it will take of
@@robanzzz5124 That is true, but first off there is so much hype about range anxiety that it has actually become a real thing, and secondly, you can refill your petrol car in 5 minutes, so range in 0.01% of journeys made by petrol cars might actually be a real issue!
It would be interesting to find out how much of the Sodium is recoverable If these batteries become ubiquitous then there's a potential new environmental disaster in the making if the sodium cant be recovered or recycled.
Sodium batteries will never dominate in cars. Their achillies heel is their operating voltage range - more than 60% full to empty Who will buy a car that has 150KW power when fully charged and 60KW when battery is low It is not something than can be changed, it is intrinsic
I heard something similar to this too, and that’s not to say they won’t use a hybrid of lithium and sodium. I’m still confident in my lithium investments unless there is some incredible advancement in battery tech which totally revolutionises the industry. Sodium-ion is not that technology.
AI is only using information it finds on the internet. In other words it's only reflecting what it finds on the internet so I don't agree mentioning "AI predicts" is a type of QED. I like your videos by the way.
The highest density battery would use silver oxide yes expensive yes but very recyclable best used for aerial taxi when you land exchange or recharge battery 🔋 done and done simple
Most silver oxide batteries are primary cells, i.e. non-rechargeable. Rechargeable lab ones exist but these have quiet low charge densities (but offer a hugher current flow for their size). Not to mention Silver is less abundant that Lithium, more costly to extract and more expensive in battery form kg for kg than Lithium. Of all the Metal-Air (oxide) batteries Lithium-Air has the highest max energy density at 11kWg/kg.
In America, Oil 🛢 will be held onto as absolutely as long as possible. Republicans recognize that their beloved Saudis Jets, Yachts, Artwork, Mansions all come with a price, and they will ensure that Americans pay for it.
But even with subsidies the oil industry will shrink to probably 10% of today output. It would be so much cheaper to run solar, wind with batteries backup that economically the market is switching to Renewable
Five years is a long time, Lithium batteries could improve dramatically also in that time period. So who knows? Wouldn’t doubt that something much better is discovered Using AI.
I wrote in May a big simulation for off-grid fast charging settlements. I simulated with Sodium battery US$ 64/kWh, 96% efficiency Iron Air battery US$ 12/kWh, 60% efficiency, C=0.01 Even with US$ 30/kWh, the iron air battery has no chance because of low efficiency and very low charge/discharge rate.
Lithium could remain cheap for the same reason fossil fuels are cheap- the cost is born by environmental destruction (strip mining in the case of lithium.) Whereas sodium production is far less environmentally destructive.
Yeah I’m hoping that Lithium mining will be restricted to create a shortage. It’s a win for the environment and a win for Lithium investors at the same time. Once the prices get too high that’s when other technologies could creep in but probably solid state batteries which also require Lithium for the cathodes. So I don’t see Lithium as a bad investment longterm.
It has just been annouced by iSeeCars that an EV is the deadliest car and that car brand is a tesla.The Tesla has more deaths reported per so many miles vs any other car manufacturer.
Interesting. I vaguely recall that a few years ago a report from a different organization called into question Tesla's safety record, but within a few days some people found a significant flaw in the study's methodology (unfortunately I can't recall the details). I'm not saying that the same thing will happen with this latest study, but it is a possibility. I suggest you do a search for, say, "iSeeCars Tesla dangerous" on google/youtube/X in a week's time to see if there are any such rebuttals. The iSeeCars report stated that several cars with high fatality rates had received high crash safety ratings, so the issue might be due to driver behaviour rather than particular car models being inherently unsafe. That reminded me of a book I read years ago called "Why Things Bite Back: Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences". One of the examples mentioned in the book concerned cars. Apparently, whenever a new safety feature (e.g., safety belts or airbags) is introduced in cars, initially the accident fatality rate drops, but then it starts to climb back up again, and this is thought to be because some drivers reason, "My car is now safer, so I can drive more recklessly". Perhaps this trend is now occurring again due to not-yet-perfected autonomous driving systems giving drivers a false sense of safety.
@lvmusicman555 whatever you reckon . #1Hyundai Venue. the report doesn't indicate vehicle safety either. Driving off a cliff and dying it's not the fault of the vehicle. That's why we all go off crash test ratings, not this BS
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Another thing to consider is what the increased operating temperature will allow. If the cells can operate safely and reliably at significantly higher and lower temperature than their lithium counterparts, then possibly the battery heating / cooling liquid systems can be eliminated. Eliminating this liquid system within the pack can therefore increase the energy density (and volumetric density) at the PACK level (as apposed to the cell level). These liquid systems are also a large cause of battery system failures as well, as there are numerous connection points internal to the pack and if they start leaking, the pack is ruined. This has been a common failure in many mainstream EV's. If you don't have to have a liquid cooling system in your pack, then that reduces pack cost as well.
Good observation
Very good point 👏👍
For Stationary storage,
Energy density doesn't matter.
Only cost matters.
There are transport costs. There are costs for the room for the batteries.
cents per cycles are more expensive
cycles matter and na-ion are rated about the same as ncm, so half the cycles of lithium phosphate, so 15% discount for about half the cycles and at a lower density
will need either more cycles or high density to rival other chemistry, at least a couple of generations away imho
with larger scale prices will drop much more than 15%, manufacturers sound really confident in high densities in future generations, the amount of investment at this stage does back that confidence although this is china after all and not real private companies, they'll want an alternative to lithium to insulate themselves from limited access to resources
@@pegefounder Most megapacks are transported in their own container and are typically the size of a Semi trailer to reduce cost and complexity. The transportation costs of $5,000 to $20,000 depending on location, are a small portion of the overall price which typically run about a million dollars per unit. You would need additional units to match the same output and that would be a significant cost if the Sodium units are not cheaper.
@@pegefounderI would hope megapacks are put on the sites of decomissioned fossil fuel plants, or other such "brownfield" sites, where the land is dirty, polluted and unwanted, but also there's already beefy grid connections ready to go.
But energy density is sexy. I can fit a kWh in a coffee cup!
In Canada and parts of North America It can and will get to -20•C sometimes even -30 or feels like it outside.
So these Battery improvements are much more needed then just Alaska lol
The Norwegians seems to manage!
The weak point of LFP is not so much the discharge temperature, although these improvements are welcome, the main problem is that LFP cannot be charged at temperatures below zero and only slowly at temperatures that are slightly above that. It doesn't seem like this battery changes that.
Wow! $10/kWh within the next 10 years - a game-changer indeed!
It happened with flat TVs. I remember when a crappy 42" 720p plasma was $10,000. Now a huge 4k is less than one solar panel. Batteries are a LOT easier to make than TVs and no reason for them to expensive other than lack of production.
@@frankcoffey This happens with most new technologies and is clearly happening with batteries as well. I'm curious how politics will effect the market in the US as it's pretty obvious that CATL is way ahead of any western manufacturer.
@Ryan-ff2db Trump does not care "who is ahead of Who" , just so Americans are doing the job and Americans are employed.
@@icosthop9998 And how does this effect the import and licensing of battery tech? He's spoken of banning battery manufacturers licensing Chinese tech, but then he's also said he'd be open to CATL building a US plant. It will be interesting see what actually happens.
@@frankcoffey really comes down to the cost of raw materials, and lithium is way more expensive than sodium.
You are a machine Sam, keep up the great job. Always good information.
Thanks 👍
Wow, great stuff mate thanks! ❤great time to be alive
Cheers mate! It's definitely an exciting time for the EV industry.
I can’t wait 🙂☃️🚗
Chinese battery innovation could have been US battery innovation. Instead, GM literally crushed the EV1 in 1999.
Drill baby drill
@@markthomasson5077 US is already producing more oil that ever before.
Meanwhile, China is set to take over world auto market with affordable, quality EVs and battery innovations that leave the West stunned.
Top oil executives are not stupid, they can read writing on the wall. Just a matter of time before global EV adoption drops the demand and price of oil forever. Many execs will already be planning their exit strategies.
Meanwhile, same oil execs will keep promoting same old mindless slogans like 'drill, baby drill" so to leacve leave the lo-info rubes holding the empty investment bag when the whole thing collapses.
@@markthomasson5077that's a weird thing to say to a guy talking about batteries.
This made Elon Musk so angry, that he invested in Tesla.
The country has been so use to creating its own reality that it decided to do so against the science again. We lost by going against the scientific principles of economics by simply disregarding it. We declare that economics can not be understood scientifically.
Which said more about our attitude than that of the discipline. We lost that one and then as if that's not enough, we moved on to declare that alternative energy is neither essential nor necessary and of course we've lost that one too. Guess who didn't follow our lead? Yes you are right, if you said China!!
Hi from Canada! "They say it can be discharged at extremely low temps of up to -40c". Or as we say here, a normal Canadian winter!
Yep especially in Edmonton...fond memories of my first Edmonton winter...damn!
Yes! Edmonton winters will take your breath away... for all the wrong reasons, haha!
This charges everything!
Awesome one. 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
even the game?? 😂
@@orlovsskibet 😂
Dear Electric Viking. you need to stop opening videos with "AI predicts..." AI is not what you think it is and it cannot predict this stuff. Read a couple Google AI overviews and you'll realize these things are not really comprehending what they are saying. AI programs with specific jobs to do, like evaluate chemical compounds for desirable characteristics can be incredibly powerful, but this idea that we are approaching human level intelligence general AI is absolute nonsense. Chat GPT is dumb as bricks and easily manipulated. You do yourself a disservice when you start a video this way.
You're focusing your attention on the wrong part of the video . And I disagree with you about chatGPT. It's much smarter than you at most intellectual tasks even if it makes some silly mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes including newton and Einstein. And those mistakes are being eradicated on a daily basis . I think your mindset on AI will change in the very near future
@@camronrubin8599 meanwhile we are still waiting for sodium Iron battery let alone for real AI.
Disagree. Choice of words for a quick update is in no way meant to be as precise as a doctoral thesis - it's meant to convey an overall concept. This was perfectly appropriate given it's context, timing, breadth.
Chill.
Sam Evans use of AI doesn't mention whether it is USA-based AI or China-based AI
neither AI are the same, especially, AI already used in industrial practice, or military practice (both a norm in China; but not yet in the USA)
AI is used for finding patterns currently. And what do you think standing a pattern out which logical conclusion would be called. Would prediction fit that bill
The solution is actually a hybrid solution. Each type of battery has its own advantages.
That is crazy stuff
I am looking forward to seeing the commercial scale of LMFP. We need energy density in EVs of 350Wh/Kg to match or even exceed range parity with ICE. All these EVs with 200-250km range fuel the FUD and slow down the transition.
a 30KW atkinson cycle petrol generator with 45% thermal efficiency, in a 2000kg PHEV, with a 60KWh battery and a 60L fuel tank, would have a range of 1500km and no need to charge on long trips, just fuel up and keep going. charge for the daily drive, petrol for long trips.
EV sales are dropping because at this point everyone knows someone who bought one and learned the hard way what the limitations are, its a great technology but the EV evangelists are setting everyone up for dissapointment.
@@JedPotts-jv2ux parts, maintenance headaches, and you're still tied to dirty, polluting exhaust fumes-it's like trying to solve modern problems with outdated tools.
As for range anxiety? That’s being tackled head-on with advancements in BEV tech. With energy density moving past 400 Wh/kg using LMFP chemistry-something that’s not far off-we’ll soon have affordable BEVs with 1,400 km of pure EV range. By that time, BEVs will also be far cheaper than ICE vehicles, thanks to falling battery costs and simpler manufacturing. PHEVs? They’ll feel like rotary phones in a smartphone world. Keep it simple, clean, and efficient-BEVs are the future.
And let’s set the record straight: EV sales are not dropping. The world is on track to sell 12.3 million BEVs in 2024, up from 9.5 million in 2023, 7.3 million in 2022, and 4.7 million in 2021. That’s BEVs only-not counting PHEVs. BEV sales have tripled in just four years, showing a clear shift towards electrification.
Even with some regional fluctuations-like a 7% dip in Europe in June 2024 due to changing incentives-the global trend is undeniable. BEVs are becoming mainstream because they’re simpler, cleaner, and increasingly affordable. PHEVs? They’ll be obsolete before you know it. EVs are the future, and the sales numbers back it up.
@@EVCurveFuturist ok cool, i guess emissions regulations on ICE vehicles are unneccesary then, along with all the EV subsidies and tax benefits, because its just a clearly superior technology.
Toyota can profitably build and sell the 2024 Hilux Champ for $13,000 USD. it even has airconditioning! only problem is neither the US government nor the australian government will allow their citizens to buy them.
i'd like to place an order for an EV with 1000km range, 1000kg load capacity and 2500kg towing capacity, that can charge in 5 minutes, for under $13,500USD... do you know where i can find one?
on a more serious note, i already own an EV, i paid $68k AUD for it and it was worth every cent, i love it. but i also know that EVs would be nothing more toys for rich people without heavy government interference in the market. arguments over "which is more affordable" have literally nothing to do with the technology and everything to do with government subsidies and regulations.
the funniest part is they're too dumb to incentivise workplace charging so EVs can charge from solar during the day rather than having to charge from coal at night.
from an engineering perspective EVs are ridiculously cool, like one of the coolest things humanity has ever done, its why they were first invented way back in 1835, decades before ICE vehicles were invented, the simple brilliance cannot be matched in technological terms... but from an economics perspective we should not delude ourselves, EVs are fancy champagne in a world where most people can barely afford box wine, a luxury we are lucky to have experienced during its brief moment in the sun, before the "ban all cars!" people pry our steering wheels from our cold dead hands and the survivors are forced to use public transport or walk everywhere.
Makes sense to mix the two. Maybe through in rebco superconductor bars
What do you mean by "artificial intelligence predicts"? Do you mean that something like ChatGPT was trained on news paper articles and it therefore summarized the idea that sodium will be the most popular?
Or do you mean that someone built a predictive model based on several market parameters and that predictive model says that it's statically likely that sodium will be dominant?
If it's the former, then what you said was meaningless. It's just summarizing text.
If it's the latter then there's some basis, but like weather forecasts you can't rely much on it.
What he means is that he is predicting this, but thinks giving the credit to AI, somehow adds weight to his predictions.
Hello, from Alaska.
George Davis
Sodium ion should be for stationary storage. Perhaps I missed your comment.
Also just because lithium price is down right now, doesn't negate Na's importance in long run supply chain.
I had to Google what Bing is.
I'm on record predicting that sodium ion batteries would replace lithium ion batteries as early as 2009. It was only luck but I called it LOL
You do realise that AI can not yet think right?
I don't think most people understand this.
Asked my local mistral7b:
>>> Will sodium ion batteries reach 200 Wh/kg energy density?
Predicting the exact energy density that sodium-ion batteries will
achieve is challenging, as it depends on ongoing research and
technological advancements. However, current laboratory sodium-ion
batteries have demonstrated specific energy densities around 150-200
Wh/kg, which already surpasses some commercially available lithium-ion
batteries. It's possible that sodium-ion batteries could reach or even
exceed the 200 Wh/kg mark in the future; however, it will require
continuous research and development efforts to optimize various aspects of
these batteries.
>>> When will this happen?
It is difficult to provide an exact timeline for when sodium-ion
batteries will reach a specific energy density like 200 Wh/kg because
technological advancements can be unpredictable and depend on multiple
factors, including research breakthroughs, funding, industrial support,
and market demand. Some estimates suggest that it may take several years
to decades before commercial sodium-ion batteries achieve the desired
energy density, but progress is being made steadily in this field. As more
research unfolds, we can expect to see improved battery performance over
time, with the goal of developing affordable, safe, and environmentally
friendly energy storage solutions for various applications.
he doesn't realise it , he often quotes Bing and OpenAI
Yeah, he does seem to think he's asking some sentient hyper-computer that predicts the future. It's just summarising articles (including lots of marketing press releases) it finds online.
The safety aspect of sodium batteries is the area you want to focus on. No spontaneous combustion of those batteries.
Seems that the choice between Sodium and LiFePO4 will shift when Sodium Ion has LONGEVITY/Cycle Life >= LiFePO4. Longevity is a major driver of cost of fixed storage and ability to remove cold weather performance concerns will seal the change to Sodium Ion batteries in storage.
AI also said Abraham Lincoln was a Democrat. Also disclaimers saying don't use AI for research papers. Everything else might be true in the video, but AI doesn't add any weight to the discussion.
garbage in garbage out
Neither do you.
AI has also hallucinated court cases.
@@ericmc6482 trumps ex lawyer cohen who perjured himself countless times, during verbal testimony and also when submitting AI generated fake court rulings in support of his position to the judge
he was also the only witness/testimony in the trump hush money trial, where he perjured himself AGAIN
and they call trump a felon based on that shame conviction
honestly the judge needs to be debarred, the most absurd lawfare ever, they'll be writing about it for centuries
The problem of Na batteries is the very wide voltage difference between charged and discharged is a very linear curve and BMS can't handle that big gap. I believe next gen are LMFP or maybe solid sate.
Thats a good point - have ordered some for testing and will use them with a buck / boost DC DC converter to keep Output voltage constant while the input Ranges from 6V to 15V
You can build a BMS to handle what ever range of voltage you need to handle. This is not a problem at all for a BMS, unless you are trying to use a BMS designed for Li Ion or LFP on Na, but that would just be dumb.
Yea, right now the cells are 3.9 to 4.0 volts, in a 100Ah battery this is 16 volts!! In an RV the inverter will shut down with a high voltage alarm. Hopefully they get the circuits down and BMS to be compatible. Right now, that is a big NO.
Do you have a comparison video where you show the different kinds of battery compositions, how the suffer, etc?
Like what the early EVs used, all the way up to CATL today
Thank you for your time
Hence why they are doing the Lithium Sodium mixed batteries
I've only one concern about them: are they as safe as LFP ones? I haven't seen short-circuit tests of this ones whereas Ido have seen tests with LFPs
They are even safer than LFP.
Viking: Please look into Cherry's solid state battery. They claim they are building a mfg plant now!
Time to consider a lithium sodium potassium, rubidium ccaesium and alloy?
What about solid state silver battery
Hi Sam, love the content. I’m a big believer in hemp and wondering more about hemp cell batteries and where they are at and what the composition would look like?
😂
Problem with them is no density at all
Like Cheech and Chong's Up In Smoke?
ruclips.net/video/lSigg18I50M/видео.html
@ exactly, you’re laughable, little man. Meet me in a dark alley I’ll help you remember loser
Hey mate, been following for a while. Was wondering, do you know of any companies in China that do contract manufacture of BESS (battery energy storage systems) like could assemble modules into packs in mass production?
Thanks in advance
Is it possible to have PHEV with sodium battery?
Yes, when they are available. China makes PHEVs with pretty big LFP batteries, like 44kwh on the Li L9. A same size sodium battery will have around 30kwh.
i think the main benifit is drop in replacment of lead acid
Not to mention environmental cost reduction. Sodium is far more plentiful and less environmentally harmful than lithium mining.
But the big key on the consumer side is safety, safety, safety vs lithium, while the low temp ability makes all the balking in cold climates a mute point.
te we vondidering transatlantic electric flight?
I said this months ago !!! Don't need to use AI to know that. Once there's ubiquitous supercharging, lower range of sodium ion batteries will become irrelevant.
Even if fast chargers were as common as gas stations, few people would want to stop to charge every 200km.
Their lower cycle life may still be an obstacle in cars though, unless they get to be super easy and cheap to swap out.
The battery that will take over is Lyten's lithium sulfur battery. They are already shipping samples and are building a $1B gigafactory. The anode is almost pure Lithium, so solid state batteries are in for a hurting. The cathode is a patented graphite process and can be tuned on a molecular level. The cathode is how they solved the problem others have with sulfur. Lyrens Li-S battery is 60% lighter than LFP and has the potential to reach 900 wH/Kg. Military is sampling their batteries now for drones. Also, existing LFP factories can be converted as there is 90% overlap in capital equipment.
Thank you for that info. Checking 'em out now. I'm interested in marine applications - commercial inland and coastal shipping, ferrries, tugs etc., as well as recreational boats - and what battery technologies might be brought to bear in that market, where gravimetric energy density is critical.
Is it a Game Changer?
It's a myth about lithium ion not working in cold climates - it hasn't stopped adoption in Norway.
hey 4680 is 244 to 295 Wh/kg
Every coastal country should be building Desalination Plants & pipe clean water across all continents & countries. The salt taken from ocean water could be used to build batteries. This would also help reduce ocean levels. The more batteries every country can build the more energy they can store. If they also build & install Bifacial Solar Panel Fencing in all major roads in countries all over the world not only could they produce an abundance of energy they could transport energy along all their highway systems across continents & across every country on earth. Of course, there are lots of people against creating a world of abundance because scarcity increase prices while abundance reduces prices & those greedy people always want more $ not less.
All fine but cost it out and that is the most common explanation we don't do certain things.
Do you think we can lower sea levels by pumping the water out? Seriously? Have you even the faintest idea how much energy is required for desalination? Solar panels cannot be used to distribute power, only to generate it.
Yes of course we should be building renewable energy infrastructure as fast as we can. The rate of expansion in this area is exponential you'll be happy to know.
Me gustaría saber tu opinión sobre la empresa NATRON, que está construyendo una fábrica de baterías de sodio y azul de Prusia en los Estados Unidos. Gracias
Pourquoi Ragnar parle anglais maintenant ?
Battery tech in general is improving all of the time, as sodium batteries get better so will lithium batteries. Ditto prices. All of the content of this video is conjecture and AI conjecture at that. It looks likely to me that we will be using all battery chemistries in the near to medium term, simply because demand is so high and growing. Good to see the great strides forward in all battery technology, sad to see how far behind the west is in this field.
You have got to be kidding me. Why are you taking what AI thinks into consideration? You may as well throw a dart at a board.
Tool for projection and estimation?
not sure the juice is worth the squeeze for grid scale energy storage
30% cheaper than lithium ion phosphate but with also ~50% less cycles
3rd gen na-ion is probably too early, manufacturers are really optimistic about future density growth, might have to wait a couple more generations
The big breakthrough will be non flammable electrolyte. Sodium Ion batteries haven't solved that issue. Whether solid state or inflammable liquid or gel, it's something needed. The fire risk of battery packs, EV or otherwise, is usually catastrophic in nature. It may may happen less often in a Tesla, but once they go.... A beautiful 3400sqft house I used to live in burnt down recently because of charging lithium batteries in the golf cart. If we are to be an electric battery society we really need to address that.
It its a case of being cheaper for roughly the same energy density and charge time, sodium would be the no-brainer. If its a case of the mountain climbing company is offering a 30 percent discount from the completion but their ropes aren't as strong, consumers will think twice before buying them.
Its a bit more like the 2nd anoligy you listed, Sodium batteries will be heavier than Lithium - ok for stationary storage but impacts efficiency of vehicles. Also, has a wider voltage range making the charging/inverter electronics more complex and costly.
The general public are not bothered wether they are sodium or lithium give them a battery than can do 700 miles for a certain price and longevity and that is when it will take of
bro thats 1100 kilometers. most petrol cars you're lucky to get 800km on a tank unless you have duel tanks.
@@robanzzz5124 That is true, but first off there is so much hype about range anxiety that it has actually become a real thing, and secondly, you can refill your petrol car in 5 minutes, so range in 0.01% of journeys made by petrol cars might actually be a real issue!
It would be interesting to find out how much of the Sodium is recoverable If these batteries become ubiquitous then there's a potential new environmental disaster in the making if the sodium cant be recovered or recycled.
👍👍
Sodium batteries will never dominate in cars. Their achillies heel is their operating voltage range - more than 60% full to empty
Who will buy a car that has 150KW power when fully charged and 60KW when battery is low
It is not something than can be changed, it is intrinsic
I heard something similar to this too, and that’s not to say they won’t use a hybrid of lithium and sodium. I’m still confident in my lithium investments unless there is some incredible advancement in battery tech which totally revolutionises the industry. Sodium-ion is not that technology.
AI is only using information it finds on the internet. In other words it's only reflecting what it finds on the internet so I don't agree mentioning "AI predicts" is a type of QED. I like your videos by the way.
The highest density battery would use silver oxide yes expensive yes but very recyclable best used for aerial taxi when you land exchange or recharge battery 🔋 done and done simple
Most silver oxide batteries are primary cells, i.e. non-rechargeable. Rechargeable lab ones exist but these have quiet low charge densities (but offer a hugher current flow for their size). Not to mention Silver is less abundant that Lithium, more costly to extract and more expensive in battery form kg for kg than Lithium. Of all the Metal-Air (oxide) batteries Lithium-Air has the highest max energy density at 11kWg/kg.
My AI says that the Toyota solid state battery will be the ultimate winner of the battery wars.
How does all this fit into the future of solid state batteries because all along we have been told that that's where things are heading to
Sodium is a small fraction of the cost of lithium …
In America, Oil 🛢 will be held onto as absolutely as long as possible. Republicans recognize that their beloved Saudis Jets, Yachts, Artwork, Mansions all come with a price, and they will ensure that Americans pay for it.
But even with subsidies the oil industry will shrink to probably 10% of today output. It would be so much cheaper to run solar, wind with batteries backup that economically the market is switching to Renewable
Five years is a long time, Lithium batteries could improve dramatically also in that time period. So who knows? Wouldn’t doubt that something much better is discovered Using AI.
I'm a believer in sodium-ion, but seriously, quoting AI "predictions"!?!?
Long live the Lithium battery, for the next 10 years at least.
I hear the state of Idaho is developing a super spud battery. Potatoes are the future 😂
I’d advising them to keep Chipping away and they’ll get their eventually 😂
I wrote in May a big simulation for off-grid fast charging settlements. I simulated with
Sodium battery US$ 64/kWh, 96% efficiency
Iron Air battery US$ 12/kWh, 60% efficiency, C=0.01
Even with US$ 30/kWh, the iron air battery has no chance because of low efficiency and very low charge/discharge rate.
eventually iron air will be more economic, it's just a function of time (cycles/degradation)
@@elduderino7767 Not with C=0.01. The iron air battery has just no opportunity for many cycles. The low efficiency adds.
It's inevitable. Wait until Tesla and Apple adopt it.
Artificial intelligence sure to make it happen.
AI?? Large language models can't predict the future.. 😂
Lithium could remain cheap for the same reason fossil fuels are cheap- the cost is born by environmental destruction (strip mining in the case of lithium.) Whereas sodium production is far less environmentally destructive.
Yeah I’m hoping that Lithium mining will be restricted to create a shortage. It’s a win for the environment and a win for Lithium investors at the same time. Once the prices get too high that’s when other technologies could creep in but probably solid state batteries which also require Lithium for the cathodes. So I don’t see Lithium as a bad investment longterm.
Do they go on fire?
The moronic trolls are out
Artificial intelligence predicts? Rofl..
Lots of delusion here.
At 40 degrees below zero the cars heater will eat up any battery in minutes.
It must have been 10 minutes before a new battery has been invented, which like all other batteries that will come to nothing
I'll bet they won't be as cheap as the one for my Diesel car.
Or you.
Grid power will run out for EVs and what batteries they have won't matter. EVs are a dead end street.
Sounds like AI is doomed...😮
It has just been annouced by iSeeCars that an EV is the deadliest car and that car brand is a tesla.The Tesla has more deaths reported per so many miles vs any other car manufacturer.
Interesting. I vaguely recall that a few years ago a report from a different organization called into question Tesla's safety record, but within a few days some people found a significant flaw in the study's methodology (unfortunately I can't recall the details). I'm not saying that the same thing will happen with this latest study, but it is a possibility. I suggest you do a search for, say, "iSeeCars Tesla dangerous" on google/youtube/X in a week's time to see if there are any such rebuttals.
The iSeeCars report stated that several cars with high fatality rates had received high crash safety ratings, so the issue might be due to driver behaviour rather than particular car models being inherently unsafe. That reminded me of a book I read years ago called "Why Things Bite Back: Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences". One of the examples mentioned in the book concerned cars. Apparently, whenever a new safety feature (e.g., safety belts or airbags) is introduced in cars, initially the accident fatality rate drops, but then it starts to climb back up again, and this is thought to be because some drivers reason, "My car is now safer, so I can drive more recklessly". Perhaps this trend is now occurring again due to not-yet-perfected autonomous driving systems giving drivers a false sense of safety.
I think you’re dreaming.
Hyundai Venue is #1. That car is NOT an EV.
@@mickydee26 Sorry your wrong ,reread the report Mitsi was third Hyundai was fourth
@lvmusicman555 whatever you reckon . #1Hyundai Venue.
the report doesn't indicate vehicle safety either. Driving off a cliff and dying it's not the fault of the vehicle. That's why we all go off crash test ratings, not this BS