Thank you for sharing. I hope by now you would have perfected your skill in this matter. I thought of one thing perhaps you can give it a try: try to seperate the process of converting the carbohydrate to sugar using kome koji and yeast to convert sugar into alcohol. I think it will take a week for kome koji to do the conversion. After that, drain the sugary liquid into a container and add the yeast. This way, I believe whatever left over from the first conversion can be used as your koji starter. Sorry, this is just a thought and I don't have any koji to try this at home, unfortunately, unless someone here in the US is willing to send me a miniscule of koji to try. Cheers.
Thanks for your comment! I sort of like the idea of simultaneous saccharification and fermentation, though. When it is simultaneous, the brew is soon protected from contamination (both acidity and alcohol protect it from other organisms). If I did the saccharification separately, I would need to be much more careful to protect the mash from mold or bad-tasting yeasts that might opportunistically grow on the mash. I know this is what beer brewers do, but they consequently need more care in sanitizing and avoiding contact with air. That's why I like the simultaneous method!
Instead of opening jar and stirring with spoon... (introducing more potential for contamination and more clean up every day)... just swirl it in jar with lid on.
Cool! How was the unmixed sake? I'm curious if it would be more or less bitter with the sediment. I also wonder if using lactic acid would give you a rounder flavour. I find citric acid to be sharper and make things taste thinner than lactic when I use acids to adjust food or drinks. 88% lactic acid is easily available from homebrew stores.
The bitterness was reduced after some time in the fridge. The clear part was thin-tasting and bland - it really needed the sediment to have some flavor. Normally I haven't had a problem getting lactic acid flavor, without any additions, presumably from naturally occurring lactic acid bacteria. This time, I used citric acid simply because that's how the recipe was given - I probably won't use it again. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for your question! I do have a hydrometer but I have not been able to use it successfully for rice wine. Please see the videos in this playlist for more information: ruclips.net/p/PLfbW3d1lMMCenpXf0qPTaMYgL1JIsuD6f I even tried a procedure that was specifically for sake. If you have any advice, I'd like to hear it!
@@JeffRubidge Thanks again, I will look into them, as I'm fresh into learning how to make sake-beer, my first batch is bubbling with lager yeast and I'm excited to learn what it will produce :D
@@JeffRubidge Wow dude, I tried my 4-day brew of doburuku with Weihestephan 34/70 lageryeast, today, its early to say anything, but a small amount that just chilled in the fridge for a day was wildly good! I'm so curious what those bottles are gonna taste after they're mature in some weeks. Your video inspired me and I'm very thankful for this, gonna try to ferment it with kveik yeast at +25°C, this is such a wonderful brewing adventure ^^
The big difference is that makgeolli is made with nuruk instead of koji. I think nuruk and koji give very different flavors. Brewing with koji gives a softer, simpler, sweeter flavor. Brewing with nuruk gives an earthier, richer, more complex flavor. Both can have some fruitiness. In my own brewing, brewing with koji gave more grapefruit or melon flavor, while brewing with nuruk gave apple or pear flavors. But I know these fruit flavors can change depending on the rest of the recipe. So I wouldn't depend on the fruitiness to distinguish them. But the earthiness and complexity distinguishes the nuruk for me. Thanks for your question!
I don't think I will use citric acid again. I used it just because it was in the given recipe. Lactic acid bacteria are very common, and will grow as long as the conditions are right. That's why I mix with my hand at the beginning, and I stir several times a day for the first few days. That is likely to promote lactic acid bacteria. Thanks for your questions!
There will be at least two more sake videos coming up! Both are made with komekoji that I bought. The first one is single-stage and will take less than two weeks. The second one is four stages and will take about 40 days. I’ll adjust my plans depending on how these two experiments work out... thanks for your question!
We want the lactic acid because it protects the brew from unwanted microbes and it gives a characteristic taste. So we want the first part of the brewing procedure to produce some acidity. Thanks for your question!
Hi, i am about to try making sake in my home too.. i would like to know, what is the point to use lactic acid/citric acid? Do we use lactic acid bacteria, or lactic acid product? Thanks..
Thanks for your question! There is a reason to want some acidity. The acidity (sourness) inhibits spoilage. There are two ways to add acidity. The traditional way is to provide an environment that encourages the growth of lactic acid bacteria. The shortcut is to add some acid directly. You can choose which method you want to use. Happy brewing!
Wow, thanks for the response.. i once brewed huang jiu / chinese rice wine without adding lactic acid. With a good sanitizing, there is no spoilage. As it was only using one kind of yeast, and the measurement of spoilage is the bitter taste, i would say my rice wine brewed well, because the taste is really sweet. I wonder, if we add acid in sake brewing, will the taste occur to the product? Does it serves another role other than preventing spoilage?
@@yohanesLi Nuruk and Chinese yeast balls typically contain some lactic acid bacteria already. Koji does not contain lactic acid bacteria. The taste of lactic acid is considered to be a good taste. If I taste a rice wine, and there is no lactic acid taste at all, I think something is missing. The lactic acid bacteria also inhibit bacteria that would produce acetic acid. Acetic acid does not taste good in rice wine. Hope this helps!
Hi Jeff, I tried this method today and bottled at day 3 as the alcohol level has reached my yeast’s alcohol tolerance. Upon bottling with rubber cap, it exploded as it’s unpasteurized. Would you recommend pasteurizing it to avoid the explosion?
I have only pasteurized one time, so I can't really recommend it for all situations. One advantage of making rice wine at home is that it doesn't need to be pasteurized. But there are things you can do to avoid explosions. (1) Even though most of the alcohol is produced in the first few days, it is still a good idea to let the brew ferment longer than 3 days. If the temperature is 20-25ºC, usually 7-10 days is ok. (2) Leave cap loose to allow gas to escape. Even if you close it eventually, release the gas once or twice per day. (3) Always store bottles in refrigerator to slow down any remaining fermentation. But it will still produce gas in the refrigerator. (4) Use bottles that are designed to hold carbonated liquids. Interesting side note: Commercially produced unpasteurized makgeolli is bottled with caps that do not seal. The bottles will leak if tilted! A number of viewers have asked me how to brew rice wine that is more carbonated. I usually recommend bottling early if that's what you want. So you have succeeded on the carbonation, which means you had a good fermentation going! I'm sure it had a nice fresh and lively taste. Since you have documented brewing in your vlog, I will watch that before writing any more...
About the vinometer: From what I've read, a vinometer requires a wine with no residual sugar (dry), and no sediment, and no carbonation, because sugar and sediment and carbonation interfere with the measurement. So it might be better to use other methods to decide when to bottle.
thanks for these amazing info Jeff! you’re a legend! :) that is true, i’ll try using a hygrometer on my next batch to ensure an accurate reading. in terms of the carbonation, it did fizz a little and it tasted lovely! i tried pasteurizing as per your method, let it cool down, and put in the fridge with cap on. the next morning, it still has a little bit of pop when i open the cap (i use rubber cap) but definitely did not explode anymore like it did when unpasteurized (although it’s probably to early to tell). will experiment more and with longer fermentation too! thanks so much! :)
@@StephaniGondo I think a hydrometer can be problematic too. It works for beer or wine because you have all your sugars available when you take that initial measurement, but makgeolli or sake is brewed with simultaneous saccharification and fermentation, which makes it impossible to get that initial density measurement. Here's a link: homebrewsake.com/measuring-your-sake-%E2%80%93-part-two-percent-alcohol-by-volume/. Good luck!
Bleh! Milky rice wine. Sake is clear. I never use lactic acid, but I do use the commercial yeast balls from a local Chinese store. The very high alcohol content should keep it from spoiling in the long run, and sanitary conditions should prevent it at the beginning. BUT... making your own koji, you probably had some different bacteria strains the koji was fighting with. I have made some adding some red yeast rice as well. Beautiful color, but prefer the taste of it without. This stuff continues to slowly ferment for a LONG time. Even in the fridge, so don't cap it tightly. It took at least a year in my fermentor before it finally quit bubbling through the airlock. I have quite a few bottles that I bottled in June of 2016. Every now and then, I uncork one to enjoy. I was told you couldn't age rice wine, but it just keeps getting better. It finally lost that rocket fuel alcohol bite. Now, if that would just happen with my 8 year old mead...
The oldest types of sake is cloudy and not all sake is clear they filters it to get clear there is a whole genre sake called nigorisake and professional sake brewers add lactic acid or citric acid to their brew traditionally make motomoromi which is a starter that contains yeast, koji, lactic acid.
Thanks for sharing your brew man
Thank you for sharing. I hope by now you would have perfected your skill in this matter. I thought of one thing perhaps you can give it a try: try to seperate the process of converting the carbohydrate to sugar using kome koji and yeast to convert sugar into alcohol. I think it will take a week for kome koji to do the conversion. After that, drain the sugary liquid into a container and add the yeast. This way, I believe whatever left over from the first conversion can be used as your koji starter. Sorry, this is just a thought and I don't have any koji to try this at home, unfortunately, unless someone here in the US is willing to send me a miniscule of koji to try. Cheers.
Thanks for your comment! I sort of like the idea of simultaneous saccharification and fermentation, though. When it is simultaneous, the brew is soon protected from contamination (both acidity and alcohol protect it from other organisms). If I did the saccharification separately, I would need to be much more careful to protect the mash from mold or bad-tasting yeasts that might opportunistically grow on the mash. I know this is what beer brewers do, but they consequently need more care in sanitizing and avoiding contact with air. That's why I like the simultaneous method!
@@JeffRubidge Wow, I never thought that and thank you for that information. Cheers.
Doing both at the same time is the traditional way. They call it parallel fermentation.
Not saying your way wouldn't work, definitely worth a try for curiosity's sake.
Awesome job Jeff
Thanks for watching!
Instead of opening jar and stirring with spoon... (introducing more potential for contamination and more clean up every day)...
just swirl it in jar with lid on.
I haven't tried that method! Thanks for watching!
Thanks for this video!!
Thanks for watching!
Не только защита кислотой, а богатство вкуса при молочнокислом брожении. Читал читал да не то вычитал.
nice
wonder if alf and bata emilase (how ever you spell it would speed and ramp up the abv)
Thanks for your comment! Please see this video: ruclips.net/video/jy2Ds2kMieg/видео.html
Cool! How was the unmixed sake? I'm curious if it would be more or less bitter with the sediment. I also wonder if using lactic acid would give you a rounder flavour. I find citric acid to be sharper and make things taste thinner than lactic when I use acids to adjust food or drinks. 88% lactic acid is easily available from homebrew stores.
The bitterness was reduced after some time in the fridge. The clear part was thin-tasting and bland - it really needed the sediment to have some flavor. Normally I haven't had a problem getting lactic acid flavor, without any additions, presumably from naturally occurring lactic acid bacteria. This time, I used citric acid simply because that's how the recipe was given - I probably won't use it again. Thanks for watching!
Hey and thank you for this interesting video!
What was your final gravity, after the three day bottle-fermentation?
Thanks for your question! I do have a hydrometer but I have not been able to use it successfully for rice wine. Please see the videos in this playlist for more information: ruclips.net/p/PLfbW3d1lMMCenpXf0qPTaMYgL1JIsuD6f I even tried a procedure that was specifically for sake. If you have any advice, I'd like to hear it!
@@JeffRubidge Thanks again, I will look into them, as I'm fresh into learning how to make sake-beer, my first batch is bubbling with lager yeast and I'm excited to learn what it will produce :D
@@JeffRubidge Wow dude, I tried my 4-day brew of doburuku with Weihestephan 34/70 lageryeast, today, its early to say anything, but a small amount that just chilled in the fridge for a day was wildly good!
I'm so curious what those bottles are gonna taste after they're mature in some weeks.
Your video inspired me and I'm very thankful for this, gonna try to ferment it with kveik yeast at +25°C, this is such a wonderful brewing adventure ^^
Can you differentiate the taste of this sake drink and makgeolli?
The big difference is that makgeolli is made with nuruk instead of koji. I think nuruk and koji give very different flavors. Brewing with koji gives a softer, simpler, sweeter flavor. Brewing with nuruk gives an earthier, richer, more complex flavor. Both can have some fruitiness. In my own brewing, brewing with koji gave more grapefruit or melon flavor, while brewing with nuruk gave apple or pear flavors. But I know these fruit flavors can change depending on the rest of the recipe. So I wouldn't depend on the fruitiness to distinguish them. But the earthiness and complexity distinguishes the nuruk for me. Thanks for your question!
How do you get lactic acid into the brew normally? Do you consider trying to add citrus acid to your magkeolli brews now?
I don't think I will use citric acid again. I used it just because it was in the given recipe. Lactic acid bacteria are very common, and will grow as long as the conditions are right. That's why I mix with my hand at the beginning, and I stir several times a day for the first few days. That is likely to promote lactic acid bacteria. Thanks for your questions!
What do you think you'll do differently next time? Would you consider trying a sake specific yeast?
There will be at least two more sake videos coming up! Both are made with komekoji that I bought. The first one is single-stage and will take less than two weeks. The second one is four stages and will take about 40 days. I’ll adjust my plans depending on how these two experiments work out... thanks for your question!
When did you add the Koji?
At 4:17, I added my homemade komekoji to the water. Thanks for watching!
Can i skip lactid acid?
We want the lactic acid because it protects the brew from unwanted microbes and it gives a characteristic taste. So we want the first part of the brewing procedure to produce some acidity. Thanks for your question!
Hi, i am about to try making sake in my home too.. i would like to know, what is the point to use lactic acid/citric acid? Do we use lactic acid bacteria, or lactic acid product? Thanks..
Thanks for your question! There is a reason to want some acidity. The acidity (sourness) inhibits spoilage. There are two ways to add acidity. The traditional way is to provide an environment that encourages the growth of lactic acid bacteria. The shortcut is to add some acid directly. You can choose which method you want to use. Happy brewing!
Wow, thanks for the response.. i once brewed huang jiu / chinese rice wine without adding lactic acid. With a good sanitizing, there is no spoilage. As it was only using one kind of yeast, and the measurement of spoilage is the bitter taste, i would say my rice wine brewed well, because the taste is really sweet. I wonder, if we add acid in sake brewing, will the taste occur to the product? Does it serves another role other than preventing spoilage?
@@yohanesLi Nuruk and Chinese yeast balls typically contain some lactic acid bacteria already. Koji does not contain lactic acid bacteria. The taste of lactic acid is considered to be a good taste. If I taste a rice wine, and there is no lactic acid taste at all, I think something is missing. The lactic acid bacteria also inhibit bacteria that would produce acetic acid. Acetic acid does not taste good in rice wine. Hope this helps!
Hi Jeff, I tried this method today and bottled at day 3 as the alcohol level has reached my yeast’s alcohol tolerance. Upon bottling with rubber cap, it exploded as it’s unpasteurized. Would you recommend pasteurizing it to avoid the explosion?
I have only pasteurized one time, so I can't really recommend it for all situations. One advantage of making rice wine at home is that it doesn't need to be pasteurized. But there are things you can do to avoid explosions. (1) Even though most of the alcohol is produced in the first few days, it is still a good idea to let the brew ferment longer than 3 days. If the temperature is 20-25ºC, usually 7-10 days is ok. (2) Leave cap loose to allow gas to escape. Even if you close it eventually, release the gas once or twice per day. (3) Always store bottles in refrigerator to slow down any remaining fermentation. But it will still produce gas in the refrigerator. (4) Use bottles that are designed to hold carbonated liquids.
Interesting side note: Commercially produced unpasteurized makgeolli is bottled with caps that do not seal. The bottles will leak if tilted!
A number of viewers have asked me how to brew rice wine that is more carbonated. I usually recommend bottling early if that's what you want. So you have succeeded on the carbonation, which means you had a good fermentation going! I'm sure it had a nice fresh and lively taste.
Since you have documented brewing in your vlog, I will watch that before writing any more...
About the vinometer: From what I've read, a vinometer requires a wine with no residual sugar (dry), and no sediment, and no carbonation, because sugar and sediment and carbonation interfere with the measurement. So it might be better to use other methods to decide when to bottle.
thanks for these amazing info Jeff! you’re a legend! :) that is true, i’ll try using a hygrometer on my next batch to ensure an accurate reading. in terms of the carbonation, it did fizz a little and it tasted lovely! i tried pasteurizing as per your method, let it cool down, and put in the fridge with cap on. the next morning, it still has a little bit of pop when i open the cap (i use rubber cap) but definitely did not explode anymore like it did when unpasteurized (although it’s probably to early to tell). will experiment more and with longer fermentation too! thanks so much! :)
also - wow interesting fact on the commercially unpasteurized makgeolli packaging 😂😂
@@StephaniGondo I think a hydrometer can be problematic too. It works for beer or wine because you have all your sugars available when you take that initial measurement, but makgeolli or sake is brewed with simultaneous saccharification and fermentation, which makes it impossible to get that initial density measurement. Here's a link: homebrewsake.com/measuring-your-sake-%E2%80%93-part-two-percent-alcohol-by-volume/. Good luck!
Nice video but don't stir the yeast sediment back into the Brew.
The rice sediment is okay in rice wine brewing.
Bleh! Milky rice wine. Sake is clear. I never use lactic acid, but I do use the commercial yeast balls from a local Chinese store. The very high alcohol content should keep it from spoiling in the long run, and sanitary conditions should prevent it at the beginning. BUT... making your own koji, you probably had some different bacteria strains the koji was fighting with. I have made some adding some red yeast rice as well. Beautiful color, but prefer the taste of it without. This stuff continues to slowly ferment for a LONG time. Even in the fridge, so don't cap it tightly. It took at least a year in my fermentor before it finally quit bubbling through the airlock. I have quite a few bottles that I bottled in June of 2016. Every now and then, I uncork one to enjoy. I was told you couldn't age rice wine, but it just keeps getting better. It finally lost that rocket fuel alcohol bite. Now, if that would just happen with my 8 year old mead...
Glad to hear from a fellow brewer! I will encourage you to try nigorizake sometime. It is cloudy like doburoku. Happy brewing!
The oldest types of sake is cloudy and not all sake is clear they filters it to get clear there is a whole genre sake called nigorisake and professional sake brewers add lactic acid or citric acid to their brew traditionally make motomoromi which is a starter that contains yeast, koji, lactic acid.