Great tips Bill! My contributions to that: 1. When buying timepieces at auction make sure to read the condition report very carefully and check if the piece comes complete with box and papers. Auctioneers tend to not be clear about that. So pay attention to that. ;) 2. Ask pictures of the timepiece box before closing the deal. Some dealers can send you an incorrect set or the box might be in bad condition. Best, Amintas
Great points Amintas, and I really did go into auctions, and your tips are great...especially not realizing that some with add a 25% buyer's 'premium' to a winning bid. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill, watch collecting is an interesting hobby but it is very risky. Anytime you deal with an unknown individual online or long distance you risk losing your money. You can either lose your money or lose your watch. Fine watch collecting is way out of my paygrade. I have found that it is very important to take your time when deciding on which watch to buy-knowing that you are pretty much married to it once you pull the trigger. I enjoy watching your video's and hearing you sharing your experience with this hobby. Its a very serious and interesting hobby for those with the resources for purchasing the finer pieces. I love watches Bill. Thanx a lot. I watch a lot of your old video's and the message you share seems to be timeless and applicable to today.
Hey Bill, good advice of course. As your dutiful subscriber who is the vintage Seiko enthusiast who primarily works through online auctions I am very aware of specific pitfalls. In order to not get get burned with Frankenwatches there are countries that you must avoid and specific sellers too. In my dealings I try to “buy the seller” when possible. I also rely on enthusiasts groups to weigh in on a watch as well as my network of restoration experts who give me an unbiased opinion on watches that I am considering. Great show again.
But don't all great movements have blued screws? (Sorry, couldn't resist) The way you present the lessons as reversals really makes the message clear. Thanks, Bill.
Jeremy, that was what I thought too, but I guess that bluing is just one way. Here's how Rolf Lang's screws are made-by hand: rolf-lang-dresden.com/?page_id=2836 Let me know what you think. Cheers, Bill
Wise words indeed Bill...remember you do not have the same level of protection when buying through Chrono24 when buying from a Private seller..read the small print you have NO protection whatsoever...
Hi Dave, generally, if I can't get a physical address on a seller ... I tend to avoid it. In one case, I mailed a check to a guy in New York City because I would then have his address, and [luckily!] it turned out to be one of the best buys I ever made and still have the watch. However, I know it could have gone the other way. If a deal has even the slightest chance of fraud-from a watch being different than described to a flat-out fake-it can happen. Kindest regards, Bill
about $US150. I imported a mint condition JLC memovox clock and was clobbered with additional tax and fee. However, I was importing a clock that was not easily found in Australia and not at the condition which my clock is in. As a collector, some people will accept additional costs for a "hard-to-get" piece that is readily available overseas. My watch repairer confirmed the fine condition of the clock. (there is a you tube video from watchbox on this clock).
Thanks Benny for that follow-up. In the end, you got an outstanding (and fairly rare!) clock. So, that extra cost seems to me a worth it for a clock that cool! Cheers, Bill
Dear Bill, The relationship of horological value to price seems to be becoming critical. I want a bronze watch and I went into the IWC boutique in our local upscale mall. They will not have the new Spitfire bronzes for sale (versus display) until October. The price for the bronze (a decidedly nonprecious metal) sounds like it is going to be $6500+. to which is added 8.7% in taxes. While the bronze Spitfire will have an IWC inhouse movement, it is just a midrange piece of no great distinction that would, for the most part, just sit in my watchbox. By comparison, the Rolf Lang Canaletto Noir is just over $14,000. While twice the price of the Spitfire, the Lang’s comparative horological value is many times that of the IWC. I am trying to avoid the temptations of midrange purchases in order to focus more on better horological value. As you and Art Leyenberger have pointed it out, it is possible to get some great horological values in German brands like Dornbluth for $4,000 which includes an inhouse movement and great finishing or in Muhle Glashutte for even less. The point of all of this blathering is that mainstream brands are often underwhelming from a comparative horological value analysis as distinguished from the offerings of independents or smaller manufacturers, particular when you are looking at the mainstream brands in boutiques or ADs.
Yikes Howard, you've made a laser incision into the Swiss Horological Parade. It's so much easer to sell a watch to someone with lots of money and little horological knowledge than it is with someone who has a genuine interest in mechanical watches and has spent time learning about them. Two ADs that I'd consider is the F.P. Journe Boutique in NYC (mainly because they gave me a cool hat), and Cellini Jewelers on Park Ave because I like the owner. However, if I can save several thousand dollars elsewhere, I'll do it. For me, it's that simple. Thanks for your usual, well-made points! Kindest regards, Bill
Hi Bill, love your work. The Rolf Lang is 41mm ? I worry investment grade dress watches are 37 to 39mm. I see H Mose have some great 41mm dress watch’s. Patek are under 40mm. Does size matter?
Hi John, the Rolf Lang Dresden Canaletto Précieuse Gray is actually 44mm (I measured it.) That is the size given by Rolf Lang Dresden as well-the RLDs on Chrono24 are all listed as 41mm, but I don't think that's accurate. With a 7.5 inch (190mm) wrist, the 44mm is close to my upper limit, and 38 is my lower limit even though I have some watches outside that range that I enjoy. I don't want a watch so big it looks like a Frisbee on my wrist or so small it looks like a button and is near-impossible to read. So size depends on your wrist size and what looks good to you. With a coat and tie, a larger watch can work because the jacket sleeve is bigger than the shirt sleeve giving the watch a smaller look. It also depends on the watch-some watches 'wear' larger or smaller than others. Kindest regards, Bill
Great advice Bil, I really think that watch hype is the reason that people to overpay for it or even take a loan to get one. I had to pay the import tax for a couple of watches, which is a problem because it is 19% in Germany. I would try to avoid the import tax by asking the local or regional shop for the watch, or even asking the seller if they can send it from their EU shop instead.
Hi Abdul ... between EU countries, I didn't think there was a tax other than the 19% VAT purchases regardless of import. So, while the non-EU countries have a 19% import tax, they don't have the 19% VAT...is that right? Watches imported into the US is like around 1% or so. Once you get the Customs Watch Worksheet correctly completed and placed on the outside of the package, it's generally not a problem. Let me know if I understand that issue about the 19% VAT vs. the 19% import. Thanks Bill
@@watchartsci Hi Bill, if I am.buying outside of the EU, I have to pay the 19% import tax, and If I am buying from germany there is always a 19% VAT added to the price as well. But if I buy from EU countries I don't need to pay extra import tax, as I am paying for the origin country VAT. In EU it is so much better to buy from inside the EU than outside, from price wise. Best, Abdul
Another advise: don’t think buying from an AD makes you get better conditions (best service, enhanced warranty, etc). The high price is about the only thing you can be sure of
Hi Erik! Indeed! That's a very good point, but I have had some good experiences with ADs; usually when they're desperate to get rid of a watch nobody else wants ... but me! Cheers Bill
Absolutely spot on with point 3. One rule I've made for myself is that, if I don't have available cash to pay full retail (even though I will do everything humanely possible not to), then I can't afford it. I prefer credit card personal transactions, even with reputable entities. How do we reconcile that, once tried on, even if the same movement can be found in two significantly differently priced watches, one of them will just give a more desirable feeling than the other?
Hi Gilberto, it's hard to say. If the two are the same and one is a sports watch and the other a dress watch, the choice is on the kind of use you have for the watch. Sometimes (more often than some would admit) they take the higher status watch....like choosing a more expensive Breitling over a Steinhart even though they have identical movements. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci Hey Bill he will think Dad's very clever, my Son treasure's his...How ever my daughters watch i keep getting i t back somehow she gets it magnetised its a 5 minute fix, just fixed it for the second time....all the best...Bill
I especially like not taking out a loan to buy a watch. I have thought about that many times but I can't pull that trigger and now after seeing your great example I won't be doing that one. BTW what is that little square red thing that is always on your clothes? Keep up the good work.
Hi Gene, I've been in the same boat...what's the harm in making a loan to buy a great deal on a watch? Investment-wise, plenty is wrong, but if we take out a loan to buy one watch, what's to keep us from buying another with an additional loan to buy more watches. In my book, if I want to buy a watch, I'd better save for it or let it pass-or raise enough funds by selling watches I no longer want. Better than insane debt and crazy high interest rates! Yes, that little red square...it comes in different colors. Cheers, Bill
I have not bought watches overseas, but I understand that when buying articles from certain countries in Europe, you don't need to pay VAT value added tax since is applicable only to locals. You should check on this prior to purchasing and paying asking price.
"generally"if I but a watch with an ETA, I'll only buy COSC ETA movements, or ones that have been modified and decorated and have been reviewed by a 'pro'. Like ablogtowatch,
Hi John, with ETAs, there's a certain level where I'll spend under $200 and just make it myself ... being a pretentious watchmaker that I am! Cheers, Bill
Hi André ... let me give you a clue; both new, but one is a bit shopworn, sitting unsold brand new... ( www.shopworn.com/product/breitling-chronomat-b01-stainless-steel-automatic-chronograph-mens-watch-ab011012-k522/ ) ... and the other one is found on the latest Breitling on-line catalog... Now, let's see whether you can come up with the reference numbers first; you or some other viewer ... This will be fun. Off you go! Cheers, Bill
I’ve bought lots of watches from eBay but with all the hidden costs nowadays I tend to avoid it. I’ve just received a Hamilton I bought from eBay, but it’ll be my last.
Ah, Bill! I, too got screwed by falling for the "wire the money" scam. I feel fortunate that the price I paid for the empty space in my collection wasn't too high, so although at the time I could more or less absorb the loss, I was angry, embarrassed (who, exactly, likes to be made a fool of?) and of course, determined to never make such a mistake again! Good video!
I got blue screwed and tattooed by a piece of shit in texas who stole a watch I sold him on ebay and swapped it with a different watch. He said i didn't send him the right watch. Lost $1000
Hi Tom, even if you take precautions, Ebay and even Chrono24, are risky places to do business, and all I can say is that I've been lucky. On Ebay, I like to get a physical address I can go after the buyer / seller who's trying to rip me off. So far I've been careful and fortunate. Take care, Bill
Hey Ivan ... and who wants a 'stupid-looking B'? Overall, I think that Breitling has some very attractive looking watches... now if they just were more forthcoming with the bases of their movements. Cheers, Bill
Great tips Bill!
My contributions to that:
1. When buying timepieces at auction make sure to read the condition report very carefully and check if the piece comes complete with box and papers. Auctioneers tend to not be clear about that. So pay attention to that. ;)
2. Ask pictures of the timepiece box before closing the deal. Some dealers can send you an incorrect set or the box might be in bad condition.
Best,
Amintas
Great points Amintas, and I really did go into auctions, and your tips are great...especially not realizing that some with add a 25% buyer's 'premium' to a winning bid. Kindest regards, Bill
Bill, watch collecting is an interesting hobby but it is very risky. Anytime you deal with an unknown individual online or long distance you risk losing your money. You can either lose your money or lose your watch. Fine watch collecting is way out of my paygrade. I have found that it is very important to take your time when deciding on which watch to buy-knowing that you are pretty much married to it once you pull the trigger. I enjoy watching your video's and hearing you sharing your experience with this hobby. Its a very serious and interesting hobby for those with the resources for purchasing the finer pieces. I love watches Bill. Thanx a lot. I watch a lot of your old video's and the message you share seems to be timeless and applicable to today.
Hey Glen, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hey Bill, good advice of course. As your dutiful subscriber who is the vintage Seiko enthusiast who primarily works through online auctions I am very aware of specific pitfalls. In order to not get get burned with Frankenwatches there are countries that you must avoid and specific sellers too. In my dealings I try to “buy the seller” when possible. I also rely on enthusiasts groups to weigh in on a watch as well as my network of restoration experts who give me an unbiased opinion on watches that I am considering. Great show again.
Hey Tod, thanks man! I like that- 'Buy the seller.' Very true and an excellent tip for anyone for anything! Kindest regards, Bill
But don't all great movements have blued screws? (Sorry, couldn't resist)
The way you present the lessons as reversals really makes the message clear. Thanks, Bill.
Jeremy, that was what I thought too, but I guess that bluing is just one way. Here's how Rolf Lang's screws are made-by hand: rolf-lang-dresden.com/?page_id=2836 Let me know what you think. Cheers, Bill
Wise words indeed Bill...remember you do not have the same level of protection when buying through Chrono24 when buying from a Private seller..read the small print you have NO protection whatsoever...
Hi Dave, generally, if I can't get a physical address on a seller ... I tend to avoid it. In one case, I mailed a check to a guy in New York City because I would then have his address, and [luckily!] it turned out to be one of the best buys I ever made and still have the watch. However, I know it could have gone the other way. If a deal has even the slightest chance of fraud-from a watch being different than described to a flat-out fake-it can happen. Kindest regards, Bill
In other words "let the buyer beware." Good cilp. Thank you.
NRS, you put it succinctly and correctly! Cheers, Bill
Just be aware of any "import tax" when buying a watch from overseas as well.
That's a good point Benny. The watch import taxes into the US are very reasonable (around 1-2%). What are the taxes from you live Benny? Thanks Bill
10% plus a processing fee. It's a consideration.
Benny, how much is the 'processing fee?' Thanks, Bill
about $US150. I imported a mint condition JLC memovox clock and was clobbered with additional tax and fee. However, I was importing a clock that was not easily found in Australia and not at the condition which my clock is in. As a collector, some people will accept additional costs for a "hard-to-get" piece that is readily available overseas. My watch repairer confirmed the fine condition of the clock. (there is a you tube video from watchbox on this clock).
Thanks Benny for that follow-up. In the end, you got an outstanding (and fairly rare!) clock. So, that extra cost seems to me a worth it for a clock that cool! Cheers, Bill
HI Bill, Always a pleasure to go thru your videos; to-the-point. Thanks again. Looks like you are enjoying your Rolf Lang Canaletto.
As always Apar, it's my pleasure. Kindest regards, Bill
Dear Bill, The relationship of horological value to price seems to be becoming critical. I want a bronze watch and I went into the IWC boutique in our local upscale mall. They will not have the new Spitfire bronzes for sale (versus display) until October. The price for the bronze (a decidedly nonprecious metal) sounds like it is going to be $6500+. to which is added 8.7% in taxes. While the bronze Spitfire will have an IWC inhouse movement, it is just a midrange piece of no great distinction that would, for the most part, just sit in my watchbox. By comparison, the Rolf Lang Canaletto Noir is just over $14,000. While twice the price of the Spitfire, the Lang’s comparative horological value is many times that of the IWC. I am trying to avoid the temptations of midrange purchases in order to focus more on better horological value. As you and Art Leyenberger have pointed it out, it is possible to get some great horological values in German brands like Dornbluth for $4,000 which includes an inhouse movement and great finishing or in Muhle Glashutte for even less. The point of all of this blathering is that mainstream brands are often underwhelming from a comparative horological value analysis as distinguished from the offerings of independents or smaller manufacturers, particular when you are looking at the mainstream brands in boutiques or ADs.
Yikes Howard, you've made a laser incision into the Swiss Horological Parade. It's so much easer to sell a watch to someone with lots of money and little horological knowledge than it is with someone who has a genuine interest in mechanical watches and has spent time learning about them. Two ADs that I'd consider is the F.P. Journe Boutique in NYC (mainly because they gave me a cool hat), and Cellini Jewelers on Park Ave because I like the owner. However, if I can save several thousand dollars elsewhere, I'll do it. For me, it's that simple. Thanks for your usual, well-made points! Kindest regards, Bill
This video is amazing Bill, the images make it much more comprehensive hahaha
Hi Dieter, thanks man! I enjoy having fun with these videos. Kindest regards, Bill
@@watchartsci They are very informative and people love them. Keep doing them! Cheers.
Hi Bill, love your work. The Rolf Lang is 41mm ? I worry investment grade dress watches are 37 to 39mm. I see H Mose have some great 41mm dress watch’s. Patek are under 40mm. Does size matter?
Hi John, the Rolf Lang Dresden Canaletto Précieuse Gray is actually 44mm (I measured it.) That is the size given by Rolf Lang Dresden as well-the RLDs on Chrono24 are all listed as 41mm, but I don't think that's accurate. With a 7.5 inch (190mm) wrist, the 44mm is close to my upper limit, and 38 is my lower limit even though I have some watches outside that range that I enjoy. I don't want a watch so big it looks like a Frisbee on my wrist or so small it looks like a button and is near-impossible to read. So size depends on your wrist size and what looks good to you. With a coat and tie, a larger watch can work because the jacket sleeve is bigger than the shirt sleeve giving the watch a smaller look. It also depends on the watch-some watches 'wear' larger or smaller than others. Kindest regards, Bill
Great title Bill , love the fact you collect the Horololgy not the Hype .
Hey Mark! Thanks man. Kindest regards, Bill
Great video and sage advise as always Bill. I hope you are enjoying the Rolf Lang!
Thanks Bruce...hope to see you in the live chat! Cheers, Bill
Great advice Bil, I really think that watch hype is the reason that people to overpay for it or even take a loan to get one. I had to pay the import tax for a couple of watches, which is a problem because it is 19% in Germany. I would try to avoid the import tax by asking the local or regional shop for the watch, or even asking the seller if they can send it from their EU shop instead.
Hi Abdul ... between EU countries, I didn't think there was a tax other than the 19% VAT purchases regardless of import. So, while the non-EU countries have a 19% import tax, they don't have the 19% VAT...is that right? Watches imported into the US is like around 1% or so. Once you get the Customs Watch Worksheet correctly completed and placed on the outside of the package, it's generally not a problem. Let me know if I understand that issue about the 19% VAT vs. the 19% import. Thanks Bill
@@watchartsci Hi Bill, if I am.buying outside of the EU, I have to pay the 19% import tax, and If I am buying from germany there is always a 19% VAT added to the price as well. But if I buy from EU countries I don't need to pay extra import tax, as I am paying for the origin country VAT. In EU it is so much better to buy from inside the EU than outside, from price wise.
Best, Abdul
So that means when Great Britain leaves the EU, they'll have the import tax ... plus any tax they have as well? Is that correct? Thanks, Bill
@@watchartsci yeap exactly, and that is why I think Brexit is a very bad idea, hopefully it will be the last country to leave the EU.
Another advise: don’t think buying from an AD makes you get better conditions (best service, enhanced warranty, etc). The high price is about the only thing you can be sure of
Hi Erik! Indeed! That's a very good point, but I have had some good experiences with ADs; usually when they're desperate to get rid of a watch nobody else wants ... but me! Cheers Bill
Absolutely spot on with point 3. One rule I've made for myself is that, if I don't have available cash to pay full retail (even though I will do everything humanely possible not to), then I can't afford it.
I prefer credit card personal transactions, even with reputable entities.
How do we reconcile that, once tried on, even if the same movement can be found in two significantly differently priced watches, one of them will just give a more desirable feeling than the other?
Hi Gilberto, it's hard to say. If the two are the same and one is a sports watch and the other a dress watch, the choice is on the kind of use you have for the watch. Sometimes (more often than some would admit) they take the higher status watch....like choosing a more expensive Breitling over a Steinhart even though they have identical movements. Cheers, Bill
Very good advise, and well presented as always Bill....thanks for posting
Hey Bill, great to hear from you. I've taken a page out of your play book and gifted one of my sons a Dad-made watch. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci Hey Bill he will think Dad's very clever, my Son treasure's his...How ever my daughters watch i keep getting i t back somehow she gets it magnetised its a 5 minute fix, just fixed it for the second time....all the best...Bill
I especially like not taking out a loan to buy a watch. I have thought about that many times but I can't pull that trigger and now after seeing your great example I won't be doing that one. BTW what is that little square red thing that is always on your clothes? Keep up the good work.
Hi Gene, I've been in the same boat...what's the harm in making a loan to buy a great deal on a watch? Investment-wise, plenty is wrong, but if we take out a loan to buy one watch, what's to keep us from buying another with an additional loan to buy more watches. In my book, if I want to buy a watch, I'd better save for it or let it pass-or raise enough funds by selling watches I no longer want. Better than insane debt and crazy high interest rates! Yes, that little red square...it comes in different colors. Cheers, Bill
@@watchartsci but what does that little square mean Bill and why do you wear it?
That little square? Oh, that's how you can tell the androids...all of the androids have that little square. Cheers, Bill
A+ for the title!
Hey Laurens, thanks man! Cheers, Bill
Lesson 4: My dealer has the exact Breitling with roman numerals for 960,000JPY; about 9,000USD new. Quite a difference...
Hi Blaine, knowledge is our only protection! Thanks for your example. Kindest regards, Bill
I have not bought watches overseas, but I understand that when buying articles from certain countries in Europe, you don't need to pay VAT value added tax since is applicable only to locals. You should check on this prior to purchasing and paying asking price.
Good points Marguit! Take care, Bill
Hi Bill! Sage words, well presented.
Hey Phil, thanks man. Maybe, it will save some collectors a little grief in their watch transactions. Cheers, Bill
"generally"if I but a watch with an ETA, I'll only buy COSC ETA movements, or ones that have been modified and decorated and have been reviewed by a 'pro'. Like ablogtowatch,
Hi John, with ETAs, there's a certain level where I'll spend under $200 and just make it myself ... being a pretentious watchmaker that I am! Cheers, Bill
H i Bill :) What are the reference numbers on the 2 Breitlings chronometer B01 ?
Hi André ... let me give you a clue; both new, but one is a bit shopworn, sitting unsold brand new... ( www.shopworn.com/product/breitling-chronomat-b01-stainless-steel-automatic-chronograph-mens-watch-ab011012-k522/ ) ... and the other one is found on the latest Breitling on-line catalog... Now, let's see whether you can come up with the reference numbers first; you or some other viewer ... This will be fun. Off you go! Cheers, Bill
I’ve bought lots of watches from eBay but with all the hidden costs nowadays I tend to avoid it. I’ve just received a Hamilton I bought from eBay, but it’ll be my last.
I've had good results from eBay but I know what you mean. Take care, Bill
Ah, Bill! I, too got screwed by falling for the "wire the money" scam. I feel fortunate that the price I paid for the empty space in my collection wasn't too high, so although at the time I could more or less absorb the loss, I was angry, embarrassed (who, exactly, likes to be made a fool of?) and of course, determined to never make such a mistake again! Good video!
It always a matter of not getting what you (thought) paid for Tim. It comes in all different colors and patterns-scams! Hang in there, Bill
I got blue screwed and tattooed by a piece of shit in texas who stole a watch I sold him on ebay and swapped it with a different watch. He said i didn't send him the right watch. Lost $1000
Hi Tom, even if you take precautions, Ebay and even Chrono24, are risky places to do business, and all I can say is that I've been lucky. On Ebay, I like to get a physical address I can go after the buyer / seller who's trying to rip me off. So far I've been careful and fortunate. Take care, Bill
Cool channel. Wooo!
Thanks Gel... take care, Bill
The older Breitling is actually a better looking watch. At least it has the proper old logo on it instead of the stupid looking B
Hey Ivan ... and who wants a 'stupid-looking B'? Overall, I think that Breitling has some very attractive looking watches... now if they just were more forthcoming with the bases of their movements. Cheers, Bill
I always buy my watches from Alfred E. Newman 😉
Eye Heart Sushi That AEN Boutique is too exclusive for me😉