Thank you for sharing your experience. I wish I had a shop teacher like you when I was in high school machine shop. I'm not a machinist anymore but I truly enjoy your content, teaching, and delivery.
I was taught hand scraping during my apprenticeship in the 1960s and I still enjoy the process whenever I get the chance - the look and feel of a scraped surface is always a joy for me - like soft silk :-)
Former scraper here from Continental Machines in Minnesota, where DoAll precision surface grinders were manufactured. We also used Biax power scrapers, but only for roughing in the new castings, which were milled and several thousanths off. The last few scraping cycles were always done by hand. The power scraper was thought to save time, but the finish wasn't good enough compared to hand scraping. However, Keith is very adept at using the power scraper as a finishing tool which i never did, and his stuff would probably have passed. Only the foreman and a top scraping hand touched up our fixtures and straightedges, they were always hand scraped.
I had a friend that found one of these 199 levels at a flea market last year and he gave it to me as a gift, it's in mint condition in the original wooden box. I use it from time to time and sometimes just put it on my surface plate like a piece of art, the original scraping on it from Starrett is flawless and a thing of beauty. Thanks for the great vid Keith.
just a tip. Never touch the glass vial when in use, the bubble will move from body heat. When scraping a large machine base also keep direct sunlight fro hitting it also. It can change your reading.
Not only sunlight, even a bright led flashlight can make the bubble move half the length of the vial. At least that happens on my level with 0,05mm/meter which is approximately 6.5 tenth per foot...
Thanks, Keith, Great tutorial ! It clicked for me as soon as I saw that finished Blued base. So evenly distributed over the base ! Great stuff ! Take care ! Stu.
Nice bit of scraping there. I really appreciate those precision tools, they’re just something else when it comes to precision. I recently bought a NOS Starrett 98-6 and it’s a lovely thing to have and use.
I have one of those levels that I thought about sending back to Starrett. They wanted over 350 dollars to do what you just did and it really did not look all to difficult. A friend of mine who has a large machine shop has a big nice surface plate I can blue and calibrate it on. Thanks Keith.
@@ShortArmOfGod Sorry if I explained that incorrectly. This fella is like my brother. We share projects all the time. I've helped him move almost all of his machines and he mine. Boy are there some stories there. No, he would be upset if I didn't ask him. Thanks again for sharing your experience and channel. Stay Safe
Had never heard of scraping until one of your videos years ago. Translates into making marks with a blunt pencil on wood while flattening. (Off the scale - but still a scale!) Not quite as tedious in my wood world. Thanks for the video.
Scraping levels are fun, small enough to finish by hand in a few hours. I like them with a flat bottom, some people like a 2 to 5 tenth hollow in the center.
Great video Keith! Keep em coming, I get a lot out of watching your videos. I'm slowly building my machine shop and it helps seeing other machinest projects. Thanks for sharing 👍🏻
Scraping it was definitely the way to go, I think a grinder would heat it up unevenly and could have warped it, plus scraped surface just looks so darn cool. 👍👍
Keith, at 6:00 you can see a line on the left piece of sandpaper at least an inch and a half from the edge where it meets the other sheet of sandpaper. Have you taped the 2 sheets together - that's what it looks like as there's a definite ridge !
The best way is to put a few drops of water or light oil between the paper and the surface plate, it makes the paper stick to the plate without affecting the flatness.
@@paulcopeland9035 - You can find out if 'cringe' is a word by looking in any dictionary. Linking is disabled here, so you'll need to do something for yourself.
Hi Keith, I have found that Canode water base blue will not give you as fine of a reading of contact as the oil base spotting blue. It is messy, but more accurate. It cleans up nice with mineral spirits. We used to use red or yellow lead as a contrast. Spent many hours using lead-based products and I'm still here, sound in mind and body. Thanks for sharing your skills!
TD, years ago my wife and I took a stained glass class from a guy who soldered everyday for a living. Because of the exposure to lead fumes on a daily basis he decided to have the lead content in his body monitored annually. He had been monitored for decades and he told us his body lead content had never changed! It is amazing how much fear can be placed in a populous by various media outlets, even over a NATURALLY OCCURRING ELEMENT. I believe if you exercise some common sense and wash your hands, you may eventually die from something besides lead poisoning!!
The way you calibrated the level makes me wonder how far off level my carpenter's level is. I think mine is off by about .04"/ft. I'll have to use your procedure to check my carpenter's level. My barn door won't stay closed.
Sounds like you have a broken zipper. Lol :-) Personally, I don't worry about my barn door being open, the old horse has to get up before he can exit the barn. Lol :-) On a serious note: Most carpenter levels don't have adjustable vials, most vials are cast into place at the factory and require new casting compound to reset. It's worth the effort on good wooden levels with aluminum or brass corner rails. Most cheap plastic or all aluminum levels aren't worth it because the expansion and contraction will knock them out of level again too easily. Sorry about the cheezy humor, I couldn't resist! :-)
Quick check. Just swap it end for end 180 degrees on a level surface. If the bubble moves the same distance each swap it’s accurate enough for carpentry.
I've seen a few ad-hoc scraping videos over the last year but this has been by far the best - thanks Keith. I'm still not convinced by scraping as a technique and can't help but think a surface grinder would give a better result. I'm even starting to mentally criticise Engineers' blue - I may look into that !
You can not be convinced if you choose. So you know, many a machine tools are surface ground and then scraped. Grinding does not achieve the long distance flatness scraping can.
The nice thing about scraping is that you're constantly checking for the quality of overall flatness. With grinding you have to hope for the best, Keith often grinds his workpieces flat before scraping and then you see how flat it really is. Also you can scrape objects that don't fit into a grinding machine.
Parts ground on a surface grinder, no matter how shiny and flat they may appear, can only be as flat as the ways the machine table runs on. My 1988 Kent 6 x 18 table runs on two rows of precision .625 greased ball bearings in hardened and ground V ways. Although a recent inspection showed no detectable wear extreme part flatness would still require bluing and scraping to a certified straight edge.
@@CatNolara It would be interesting to find out how unflat aground surface is. True about some surfaces being difficult to grind due to access difficulies.
It breaks me heart to see the condition that level was in when you started the video. Our shop had two of these that we used together to set up machine tools, most often using them together at right angles. We treasured these instruments and would never allow such damage. The side to side level vial isn't rated in accuracy, but comparing readings with the other level resulted routinely in similar accuracy. I tended to trust the short side reading when a set up wouldn't allow employing a long level. When ever possible I would validate the sided to side reading with a scaled and calibrated level. There are some short bodied levels of similar accuracy as the .0005"/ft Starrett of foreign manufacture, but I haven't used one with as high tolerance as the Starrett. You didn't report on the performance on the side to side bubble. How did it look? I imagine your scraping futzed with its performance.
Keith, Out of curiosity, considering the high level of accuracy, are these levels susceptible to jarring when the level is in transit? Does the level need to be recalibrated after it is moved from your shop? Do the levels keep calibration or do they need to be recalibrated before each use? Is your granite stone susceptible to wear from the bluing process? Do you need to move around the stone to balance the wear over time? I have become addicted to watching your videos. In high school I worked part time and summers as a draftsman, detailing parts for machines that were used to mass produce things like engine blocks and transmission casings. I learned to mark drawings for things like radii, chamfers, tolerances and finishes. It is really great to see how the parts are made. Thank you, Bob
A good idea is to check the calibration before use. The results of the check may or may not require calibration. You don't really know how accurate the calibration is from the manufacturer.
@@danburch9989 I have one of these, and the calibration from Starrett is spot on. But over time, with the normal knocks it can get in the shop, it can go off. It’s not really that delicate, but one sharp bang can do it. The difficulty is that Keith makes it seem easy to recalibrate, and it is, if you have a good surface plate and another calibrated master level. If you don’t, don’t play with it because you will definitely make it worse. Buying used ones is always a crapshoot.
You can check the calibration as you use it. You can get something level without the level being calibrated. Just make sure the bubble is off the same amount on each opposite side. it always level if you check both 180 degrees.
you can calibrate a level on any flat surface. It can be tilted and far from level it just needs to be flat. Rotate the level resting on the surface until it settles in the middle of the range. The bubble needs to be in the center. Place a heavy straight edge against the side of the level and a block against one end. This will allow you to rotate the level 180 and place it exactly in the same spot. Rotate the level 180, let it settle. If it reads the same it is calibrated. If it is off,, adjust it so the bubble travels half the offset towards the center. Once settled rotate the level until the bubble is centered. reset the straight edge and the end block. rotate the level 180...rinse and repeat until the level reads the same after rotation. No need for any other levels
I must admit I was saddened by the condition of that level. It has seen a long, hard life for such a high precision tool (not to mention a very costly tool). Nice restoration Keith!
@@ianbutler1983 I may be wrong, but my understanding is Master precision levels are intended to be used under strict conditions both to ensure accurate results and to protect a fragile and expensive tool: Keith mentioned even the heat from your finger touching the glass can skew results. Generally you only use the "Master" tool when extreme accuracy is needed. (you would have lesser tools for rough work) With the base all scratched up you can't expect the accuracy that is required of the tool.
@@crichtonbruce4329 We kept our levels in their original wooden case. The levels are suspended in the box, only touching on the ends with dense soft padded foam. The level can be extracted from the box with a finger in the cavity on each end. The level then can be handled by the insulating top piece or gently gripped from the top reaching down the sides. My habit was to use clean hands and pass my palm over the level base before placing it on the machine surface. The machine surface was also cleaned. Using two levels set at 90 reference to each other allows machine leveling adjustment without introducing error by picking up and replacing the instrument to validate level in the other direction when you only have one tool. .0005"/ft error can be introduced by the smallest piece of dirt, so moving the instrument easily introduces error. I didn't like Keith's method of spinning the level on his surface plate when trying to calibrate the primary bubble. It sounded gritty on the video when he spun it. That indicated to me that debris was on his surface plate. I prefer to pick up the instrument, spin it in the air and gently place it to register marks on the surface. Keith "cheated" by trying to calibrate to his other tool. You can pretty easily adjust the level to itself, adjusting until it reads identically when turned 180 degrees. The surface doesn't need to be true level, but it has to be very close since there is only a very few divisions on the scale. I am retired and I don't own any of these instruments in my hobby shop. If I saw that level in that condition at a flea market, I would have cried for the abuse, but I wouldn't have bought it. We reserved our levels for machine leveling/calibration and only approved maintenance staff was allowed to use them. We had a Scherr Tumico of the same size and accuracy, but like all STI tools it just didn't have the same feel and finish as Starrett. It got very little use. Comparing STI to Starrett is similar to comparing Craftsman to Snap-On. If you can't afford the best, you settle for something less. This level was horribly abused. Our levels saw frequent use and showed no sign of abuse after 30 years of service. These instruments are so sensitive that the bubble takes many seconds to settle. The divisions on the bubble vial are .0005"/ft, but the division markings are clear enough to read to .00025"/ft. It is really tough to level a machine tool over its entire range within .0005"/ft. It isn't that it can't be done, but it is tough. Generally some portion of machine travel exceeds that limit. When that was the case in my experience, I would tune so my variance was outside the common machining range. A smug maintenance technician proudly walks away from his setup when that bubble doesn't move perceptibly over the entire range of a large machine tool. I have done it, but most often you can't expect to strut too proudly.
I am curious why you didn't check the level before starting anything? Seems as though you would want a starting point and to be able to trace any progress as you go through the different surface processes. One other question, how can you be sure that the area under the level during the adjustment be as level as the area under your level? Wouldn't you want to put the level your adjusting where your level is? Very interesting process. Thanks for sharing.
The surface being perfectly level doesn't matter and you don't need to use another level to calibrate a level. What matters is making sure the level goes in the same spot on the surface plate when turning it 180 ° and that the bubble goes to the same line on the level when turning it 180°. I hope this helps. God bless you! Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3 KJV Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Romans 3:23-26 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Romans 5:8-11 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Romans 5:1-2 KJV That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10 KJV
Only if the temperature changes rapidly while measuring. If the temperature of the whole level changes equally, it doesn't matter. But if the level is sitting on a cold machine, while the room temperature is warmer, the level will warp slightly and your reading is off... That also happens when you hold it in your hand for longer than a few seconds...
Hi Keith tried to reach you 2 times by facebook messenger and it don't look like they were opened, Is there a better way to contact you about a question i have about an old Monarch lathe
Oh wow the level and moving it around and the plane... This is just the same thing I go through when leveling the 3d printing bed. They all come with 4 points for leveling a plane.... I've modified mine to do 3 points. (because you know a plane) Its really pretty neat though I have a Z axis probe that does like 35 points then gives me a three dimensional representation of the plane. Thats the bed base, there are surface treatments that we uses like a piece of glass, or a PEI magnetic backed flexible metal plate. I think having a scraped surface would be pretty awesome for a 3d printing bed, make it out of some nice steel. Hmm I think I might need to send you a message.
This is the first that I have heard of a power scraper. I'm only tangentially familiar with scraping methods so just how much time is saved with a powered tool?
Cool video, I learned a lot. I think I want to try making my 3d printer bed more flat using this type of method. It will require softer sand paper though its aluminum about 235mm x 235mm x 3mm.
Nice video.I just have one question: why are you not using hollow ground screwdrivers? They are much gentler to the screw head and give you a better purchase in the slot and therefore more control.
So my 98-6 fell into the machine bed last week. Raised a couple of bumps on the contract surface. I guess I need to lap it and recalibrate. How high of a grit do I need to lap it to? Not planning to scrape it.
Prescision flat stones can be used to dress off the high spots. If there are only two bumps, restoration is pretty simple and you can have high confidence it is okay even if you can't measure it against a good standard.
Good morning Keith , I haven't heard the Technical term " Dead Nuts perfect " used in a long time , gave me a case of the grins :-) and Q: is your shop Cat deaf ? or just in a really deep sleep ? (9:00) I expected he or she to run off when you started the scraper , but it didn't budge at all / good looking Cat friend ;-)
What do those levels cost new? What range can you expect to pay for a used one at auction or a flea market? That would be useful information. By the way, I saw your taper micrometer on ebay for $3500.
That level is about $1000 at Grainger. I have two Starrett levels. One is a 199. The other Starrett is longer and slightly different styling. I paid $400 for each of my Starrett levels. I bought my Starrett levels at an estate sale of a deceased machinis6. Do I need them? Absolutely not. Do I enjoy having them? Yes, very much.
For anyone else sitting with a piece of paper and moving it around to figure out the "one direction will be perfectly horizontal" - it is true, but he only know what direction due to his reference level. Not that *I* was confused for several minutes, no.... :)
With some patients, you can figure it out without a reference level. When you flip the level and it reads on the same mark on both sides, it’s level and you can calibrate the bubble.
Keith, I'm hoping you can help me. I have the identical level to that in 8 in. I have the original box as well, it is extremely old, but in perfect condition, literally NOS. Where I have difficulty is it is labeled number 96. According to Starrett, It should be 1098. The cedar box has a paper label, it is very clear and obviously very very old. I have not been able to find another example with this numbering anywhere online. Starrett is unwilling to help. Do you have any ideas on where I could reference valuation? Is it possible this was simply the 96th offering from Starrett? Does anybody know of a club that collects first edition tools? I know that it is special. I don't have any use for collectibles, if it is worth a great deal I would prefer to sell it, buy a modern one for use, and pocket the remainder. I'm sure some collector out there would be very happy to get this. Do you have any ideas on how to find this buyer?
If the heat from your fingers affect the function of the level, why are you touching the level while lapping it? I would think you would only touch the bakelite/plastic.
There;s some exaggeration here about fingers touching the level. I’ve experimented with mine over the years, generally after I see, or read about someone saying that. Yes, if you strongly grip the metal portion of the level with your hand, you can cause a slight heat transfer that will make a very slight error. But two fingers touching it to move it, won’t. The level just has too much mass for that to occur. It also depends on the temperature in your shop. I’ve found that summer temperatures give a slightly different reading that winter temperatures. Because the level isn’t the same in each direction in design, the bottom increases in size more than the top in warm weather, and contracts more in cold weather. So it’s ever so slightly convex in the hot summer, and ever so slightly concave in the cold winter. The readings can be different by about a line of reading, or 0.0005” per foot. Does it matter? Not generally. Squaring up a lathe bed will not be affected.
I'm curious, why scrape the flat surface of a level? it's a measuring tool. Most measuring tools have smooth surfaces. I totally agree with scraping machine surfaces that need to retain way oil but why would you want scraped precision measuring surfaces?
Maybe because it may warp slightly if you mount it on the surface grinder. If you blue it up on the surface plate, it is just sitting there the same way as it does while using it. You don't introduce any stresses this way, as long as you don't hold it in your hand for too long, which causes warping due to the temperature difference...
Ya, think? Yet the most accurate metrology equipment used by laboratories all over the world, and places like NIST are all running on had scraped ways. The two Moore CMMs in the NIST basement that every gage block is traced to have lovely moon pattern scraping all over them. There is nothing more accurate, even the 3 plate lapping method generates concave or convex surfaces depending on the sequence of laps. A 3 plate scraped method developed by Withworth is an order of magnitude flatter if done right
18:15 Not true. That is not a bearing surface. You do not need nor want "highs and lows". You will tolerate some very shallow lows as a by product of the scraping process but that is NOT your goal for a non bearing surface.
Hi there. Çan I ask why do you clean the scraped area and then immediately wipe the surface with your fingers. . Many many (too many) years ago in my past tool room past - NEVER NEVER touch the scraped surface as this will leave a very thin veneer layer of grease from your fingers. . This thin layer will stop "blue" from adhering properly giving false readings. . Or is it a habit you have difficulty in stopping yourself from doing (layman's mistake).
A question…. Why didn’t you blue before starting to scrape it? I don’t understand the need to scrape the level. Lap it and call it done. The lapping should return it to factory surface considering it was not damaged.
24:00 You're making a mess of adjusting the level. Two things you're doing wrong - fist is assuming that the level is level - something you don't know as you've not put a level on that surface to see that it's level. the second error is adjusting the level at both ends - it's better to make the adjustments with the level the same way round every time. A third thing MAY be you're not giving it enough settling time. A fourth thing is you're rushing the adjustments - don't adjust it by results, adjust it by feel of the screwdriver. If you've turned the screw one degree, leave it for 5 minutes to let it settle. It's also better if you have the level left to right rather than one end closer to you than the other. In fact, it doesn't matter if you're on a level surface or not - as long as the left hand end of the bubble reads the same every time you flip the level 180°. The heavy metal block to give an accurate repeatable position is good.
" The heavy metal block to give an accurate repeatable position is good." I'm pleased that you approve of something.. LOL.. You too, are making assumptions, because everything is not shown on camera, doesn't mean Keith hadn't checked it..
He has flip the level end for end to adjust and average out the error should his table not be perfectly level. Doesn't matter if it is left/right or front/back.
You don't need a flat level plane to calibrate a level. What you need is two points set at the length of the level. All you do then is make sure the level reads the same when put on those points and then reverse the level. If it reads the same both ways it's calibrated. What you are doing is introducing the errors of the plate into the level.
I don't recall him ever talking about it, but I presume that he has his plates serviced regularly, and that he has more than one plate... I'm pretty sure that a well maintained plate is going to be *MUCH* flatter than his scraped level...
FFS pay attention. He's not introducing errors. He is on a almost DEAD flat surface plate, AND in a position that is almost perfectly level, AND has two reference plates to ensure that the position is maintained AND he is flipping the level end-to-end.
Lol. You keep adjusting it back to the same incorrect place every time. You should not try to get the bubble centered. You should make it be equally off when you turn the level around.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I wish I had a shop teacher like you when I was in high school machine shop. I'm not a machinist anymore but I truly enjoy your content, teaching, and delivery.
I was taught hand scraping during my apprenticeship in the 1960s and I still enjoy the process whenever I get the chance - the look and feel of a scraped surface is always a joy for me - like soft silk :-)
thanks for a great video !! I even scraped my drillpress and tablesaw and bandsaw !
Hi from the Netherlands. You're a very patient chap. It's a joy following you squire.
Your teaching about scrapping has taught me so much
Danke!
Former scraper here from Continental Machines in Minnesota, where DoAll precision surface grinders were manufactured. We also used Biax power scrapers, but only for roughing in the new castings, which were milled and several thousanths off. The last few scraping cycles were always done by hand. The power scraper was thought to save time, but the finish wasn't good enough compared to hand scraping. However, Keith is very adept at using the power scraper as a finishing tool which i never did, and his stuff would probably have passed. Only the foreman and a top scraping hand touched up our fixtures and straightedges, they were always hand scraped.
Awesome information, thanks for sharing. Is Cont Machines still in business? If so, do they still make grinders the same way?
Good to see there is proper supervision of the scraping process 8 minutes in.
I had a friend that found one of these 199 levels at a flea market last year and he gave it to me as a gift, it's in mint condition in the original wooden box. I use it from time to time and sometimes just put it on my surface plate like a piece of art, the original scraping on it from Starrett is flawless and a thing of beauty. Thanks for the great vid Keith.
Thanks for another interesting video.
Thanks Keith and Jim
just a tip. Never touch the glass vial when in use, the bubble will move from body heat. When scraping a large machine base also keep direct sunlight fro hitting it also. It can change your reading.
Not only sunlight, even a bright led flashlight can make the bubble move half the length of the vial.
At least that happens on my level with 0,05mm/meter which is approximately 6.5 tenth per foot...
Thanks, Keith,
Great tutorial !
It clicked for me as soon as I saw that finished Blued base. So evenly distributed over the base !
Great stuff !
Take care !
Stu.
Nice bit of scraping there. I really appreciate those precision tools, they’re just something else when it comes to precision. I recently bought a NOS Starrett 98-6 and it’s a lovely thing to have and use.
Congratulations on the new Grandbaby. =)
Nice work Keith.
Thanks for the lesson.
Beautiful job.
Great content.
Thank you, EM.
Very nicely presented Kieth, thanks for all your hard work.
Thank you Sir, from Jonesborough TN!
At last I understood the idea of scraping . Thank you so much.
Very good job 👏🏻
Its good to see someone else who's just scraping by...
I have one of those levels that I thought about sending back to Starrett. They wanted over 350 dollars to do what you just did and it really did not look all to difficult. A friend of mine who has a large machine shop has a big nice surface plate I can blue and calibrate it on. Thanks Keith.
Their time has value. So does your friends. Quality machine tools aren't cheap and you shouldn't take his for granted.
@@ShortArmOfGod Sorry if I explained that incorrectly. This fella is like my brother. We share projects all the time. I've helped him move almost all of his machines and he mine. Boy are there some stories there. No, he would be upset if I didn't ask him. Thanks again for sharing your experience and channel. Stay Safe
Love your “new” Wilton on the bench
Had never heard of scraping until one of your videos years ago. Translates into making marks with a blunt pencil on wood while flattening. (Off the scale - but still a scale!) Not quite as tedious in my wood world. Thanks for the video.
That level has been Ruckerized
This was really enjoyable Keith. You settled a long standing question for me about how precision levels were calibrated. Thank you.
Thank you for the lesson and work shown!
Thanks for sharing 👍
Nice Job Keith It's amazing how people treat their tools either they have too much money or do not understand what they have.
Great job sir
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀
Scraping levels are fun, small enough to finish by hand in a few hours. I like them with a flat bottom, some people like a 2 to 5 tenth hollow in the center.
I never imagined how you would do what you just accomplished. I'm not a machinist but this was fascinating.
Nice one Keith, interesting to see the scraping operations!
Very nice job.
It's been a while since the last scraping video.
I always enjoy these and might want to give it a go myself in the future.
video bomb (@7:40).....Cats can sleep anywhere (nice work Ginger).
Great video Keith! Keep em coming, I get a lot out of watching your videos. I'm slowly building my machine shop and it helps seeing other machinest projects. Thanks for sharing 👍🏻
Scraping it was definitely the way to go, I think a grinder would heat it up unevenly and could have warped it, plus scraped surface just looks so darn cool. 👍👍
Keith, at 6:00 you can see a line on the left piece of sandpaper at least an inch and a half from the edge where it meets the other sheet of sandpaper. Have you taped the 2 sheets together - that's what it looks like as there's a definite ridge !
Yes, I saw that too and cringed.
Doesn’t matter since the final degree of flatness is achieved by bluing and scraping.
The best way is to put a few drops of water or light oil between the paper and the surface plate, it makes the paper stick to the plate without affecting the flatness.
@@johncoops6897 ...Is "cringe" a word?
@@paulcopeland9035 - You can find out if 'cringe' is a word by looking in any dictionary. Linking is disabled here, so you'll need to do something for yourself.
Hi Keith, I have found that Canode water base blue will not give you as fine of a reading of contact as the oil base spotting blue. It is messy, but more accurate. It cleans up nice with mineral spirits. We used to use red or yellow lead as a contrast. Spent many hours using lead-based products and I'm still here, sound in mind and body. Thanks for sharing your skills!
TD, years ago my wife and I took a stained glass class from a guy who soldered everyday for a living. Because of the exposure to lead fumes on a daily basis he decided to have the lead content in his body monitored annually. He had been monitored for decades and he told us his body lead content had never changed! It is amazing how much fear can be placed in a populous by various media outlets, even over a NATURALLY OCCURRING ELEMENT. I believe if you exercise some common sense and wash your hands, you may eventually die from something besides lead poisoning!!
Thank you.
Great video.
Very interesting video Keith, keep'um coming. 👍
Great stuff!!!
Good morning to all from SE Louisiana 17 Jan 22.
The way you calibrated the level makes me wonder how far off level my carpenter's level is. I think mine is off by about .04"/ft. I'll have to use your procedure to check my carpenter's level. My barn door won't stay closed.
Sounds like you have a broken zipper. Lol :-)
Personally, I don't worry about my barn door being open, the old horse has to get up before he can exit the barn. Lol :-)
On a serious note: Most carpenter levels don't have adjustable vials, most vials are cast into place at the factory and require new casting compound to reset. It's worth the effort on good wooden levels with aluminum or brass corner rails. Most cheap plastic or all aluminum levels aren't worth it because the expansion and contraction will knock them out of level again too easily.
Sorry about the cheezy humor, I couldn't resist! :-)
@@AerialPhotogGuy You could always just plane a bit of wood off to adjust the level ;)
Quick check. Just swap it end for end 180 degrees on a level surface. If the bubble moves the same distance each swap it’s accurate enough for carpentry.
@@ellieprice363 Same for high precision levels. As long as it reads the same both ways round, it's correctly adjusted.
I've seen a few ad-hoc scraping videos over the last year but this has been by far the best - thanks Keith.
I'm still not convinced by scraping as a technique and can't help but think a surface grinder would give a better result. I'm even starting to mentally criticise Engineers' blue - I may look into that !
You can not be convinced if you choose. So you know, many a machine tools are surface ground and then scraped. Grinding does not achieve the long distance flatness scraping can.
The nice thing about scraping is that you're constantly checking for the quality of overall flatness. With grinding you have to hope for the best, Keith often grinds his workpieces flat before scraping and then you see how flat it really is. Also you can scrape objects that don't fit into a grinding machine.
Parts ground on a surface grinder, no matter how shiny and flat they may appear, can only be as flat as the ways the machine table runs on. My 1988 Kent 6 x 18 table runs on two rows of precision .625 greased ball bearings in hardened and ground V ways. Although a recent inspection showed no detectable wear extreme part flatness would still require bluing and scraping to a certified straight edge.
@@grntitan1 So it's funny that surface grinders exist for that very purpose.
It may well be done more for the surface 'finish'.
@@CatNolara It would be interesting to find out how unflat aground surface is. True about some surfaces being difficult to grind due to access difficulies.
It breaks me heart to see the condition that level was in when you started the video.
Our shop had two of these that we used together to set up machine tools, most often using them together at right angles. We treasured these instruments and would never allow such damage. The side to side level vial isn't rated in accuracy, but comparing readings with the other level resulted routinely in similar accuracy. I tended to trust the short side reading when a set up wouldn't allow employing a long level. When ever possible I would validate the sided to side reading with a scaled and calibrated level. There are some short bodied levels of similar accuracy as the .0005"/ft Starrett of foreign manufacture, but I haven't used one with as high tolerance as the Starrett.
You didn't report on the performance on the side to side bubble. How did it look? I imagine your scraping futzed with its performance.
Great video. Perhaps you could add a scraping playlist to your channel. Ciao, Marco.
Surface plate lapping sounds seriously interesting
Keith,
Out of curiosity, considering the high level of accuracy, are these levels susceptible to jarring when the level is in transit? Does the level need to be recalibrated after it is moved from your shop? Do the levels keep calibration or do they need to be recalibrated before each use?
Is your granite stone susceptible to wear from the bluing process? Do you need to move around the stone to balance the wear over time?
I have become addicted to watching your videos. In high school I worked part time and summers as a draftsman, detailing parts for machines that were used to mass produce things like engine blocks and transmission casings. I learned to mark drawings for things like radii, chamfers, tolerances and finishes. It is really great to see how the parts are made.
Thank you,
Bob
A good idea is to check the calibration before use. The results of the check may or may not require calibration. You don't really know how accurate the calibration is from the manufacturer.
@@danburch9989 I have one of these, and the calibration from Starrett is spot on. But over time, with the normal knocks it can get in the shop, it can go off. It’s not really that delicate, but one sharp bang can do it.
The difficulty is that Keith makes it seem easy to recalibrate, and it is, if you have a good surface plate and another calibrated master level. If you don’t, don’t play with it because you will definitely make it worse.
Buying used ones is always a crapshoot.
You can check the calibration as you use it. You can get something level without the level being calibrated. Just make sure the bubble is off the same amount on each opposite side. it always level if you check both 180 degrees.
you can calibrate a level on any flat surface. It can be tilted and far from level it just needs to be flat. Rotate the level resting on the surface until it settles in the middle of the range. The bubble needs to be in the center. Place a heavy straight edge against the side of the level and a block against one end. This will allow you to rotate the level 180 and place it exactly in the same spot. Rotate the level 180, let it settle. If it reads the same it is calibrated. If it is off,, adjust it so the bubble travels half the offset towards the center. Once settled rotate the level until the bubble is centered. reset the straight edge and the end block. rotate the level 180...rinse and repeat until the level reads the same after rotation. No need for any other levels
I must admit I was saddened by the condition of that level. It has seen a long, hard life for such a high precision tool (not to mention a very costly tool). Nice restoration Keith!
Why do you think that? I thought it had just been used, not abused. I don't know much about this stuff, though. Honestly curious.
@@ianbutler1983 I may be wrong, but my understanding is Master precision levels are intended to be used under strict conditions both to ensure accurate results and to protect a fragile and expensive tool: Keith mentioned even the heat from your finger touching the glass can skew results. Generally you only use the "Master" tool when extreme accuracy is needed. (you would have lesser tools for rough work) With the base all scratched up you can't expect the accuracy that is required of the tool.
@@crichtonbruce4329 We kept our levels in their original wooden case. The levels are suspended in the box, only touching on the ends with dense soft padded foam. The level can be extracted from the box with a finger in the cavity on each end. The level then can be handled by the insulating top piece or gently gripped from the top reaching down the sides.
My habit was to use clean hands and pass my palm over the level base before placing it on the machine surface. The machine surface was also cleaned. Using two levels set at 90 reference to each other allows machine leveling adjustment without introducing error by picking up and replacing the instrument to validate level in the other direction when you only have one tool. .0005"/ft error can be introduced by the smallest piece of dirt, so moving the instrument easily introduces error. I didn't like Keith's method of spinning the level on his surface plate when trying to calibrate the primary bubble. It sounded gritty on the video when he spun it. That indicated to me that debris was on his surface plate. I prefer to pick up the instrument, spin it in the air and gently place it to register marks on the surface. Keith "cheated" by trying to calibrate to his other tool. You can pretty easily adjust the level to itself, adjusting until it reads identically when turned 180 degrees. The surface doesn't need to be true level, but it has to be very close since there is only a very few divisions on the scale.
I am retired and I don't own any of these instruments in my hobby shop. If I saw that level in that condition at a flea market, I would have cried for the abuse, but I wouldn't have bought it.
We reserved our levels for machine leveling/calibration and only approved maintenance staff was allowed to use them. We had a Scherr Tumico of the same size and accuracy, but like all STI tools it just didn't have the same feel and finish as Starrett. It got very little use. Comparing STI to Starrett is similar to comparing Craftsman to Snap-On. If you can't afford the best, you settle for something less.
This level was horribly abused. Our levels saw frequent use and showed no sign of abuse after 30 years of service. These instruments are so sensitive that the bubble takes many seconds to settle. The divisions on the bubble vial are .0005"/ft, but the division markings are clear enough to read to .00025"/ft. It is really tough to level a machine tool over its entire range within .0005"/ft. It isn't that it can't be done, but it is tough. Generally some portion of machine travel exceeds that limit. When that was the case in my experience, I would tune so my variance was outside the common machining range.
A smug maintenance technician proudly walks away from his setup when that bubble doesn't move perceptibly over the entire range of a large machine tool. I have done it, but most often you can't expect to strut too proudly.
Hiya Keith
I am curious why you didn't check the level before starting anything? Seems as though you would want a starting point and to be able to trace any progress as you go through the different surface processes. One other question, how can you be sure that the area under the level during the adjustment be as level as the area under your level? Wouldn't you want to put the level your adjusting where your level is? Very interesting process. Thanks for sharing.
The surface being perfectly level doesn't matter and you don't need to use another level to calibrate a level. What matters is making sure the level goes in the same spot on the surface plate when turning it 180 ° and that the bubble goes to the same line on the level when turning it 180°.
I hope this helps.
God bless you!
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:3 KJV
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 3:23-26 KJV
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:8-11 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:1-2 KJV
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 KJV
@@michaelboyle1983 Amen! Brother!
When you are using a level this accuate a one degree change in room temperature will affect the result.
Only if the temperature changes rapidly while measuring. If the temperature of the whole level changes equally, it doesn't matter. But if the level is sitting on a cold machine, while the room temperature is warmer, the level will warp slightly and your reading is off... That also happens when you hold it in your hand for longer than a few seconds...
@@Henning_S. on large mass items such as printing machines that take several days to install temperature changes makes a large difference.
Affect
@@paulhunt598 edited thank you,auto correct on mobile phone does not know😁
Hi Keith tried to reach you 2 times by facebook messenger and it don't look like they were opened, Is there a better way to contact you about a question i have about an old Monarch lathe
Send me an email. I show my email address at the start of each video when my name comes up.
Oh wow the level and moving it around and the plane... This is just the same thing I go through when leveling the 3d printing bed. They all come with 4 points for leveling a plane.... I've modified mine to do 3 points. (because you know a plane) Its really pretty neat though I have a Z axis probe that does like 35 points then gives me a three dimensional representation of the plane. Thats the bed base, there are surface treatments that we uses like a piece of glass, or a PEI magnetic backed flexible metal plate. I think having a scraped surface would be pretty awesome for a 3d printing bed, make it out of some nice steel. Hmm I think I might need to send you a message.
Keith very good video, what electric scrapers would you recommend ?
This is the first that I have heard of a power scraper. I'm only tangentially familiar with scraping methods so just how much time is saved with a powered tool?
Cool video, I learned a lot. I think I want to try making my 3d printer bed more flat using this type of method. It will require softer sand paper though its aluminum about 235mm x 235mm x 3mm.
Nice video.I just have one question: why are you not using hollow ground screwdrivers? They are much gentler to the screw head and give you a better purchase in the slot and therefore more control.
So my 98-6 fell into the machine bed last week. Raised a couple of bumps on the contract surface. I guess I need to lap it and recalibrate. How high of a grit do I need to lap it to? Not planning to scrape it.
Prescision flat stones can be used to dress off the high spots. If there are only two bumps, restoration is pretty simple and you can have high confidence it is okay even if you can't measure it against a good standard.
Out of curiosity, are modern digital levels as precise as these older bubble types? Also, how does a box level compare to a 199?
imho, no. Box level, like hardware store extruded aluminum or the wood ones? Not even in the same league.
Good morning Keith , I haven't heard the Technical term " Dead Nuts perfect " used in a long time , gave me a case of the grins :-)
and Q: is your shop Cat deaf ? or just in a really deep sleep ? (9:00) I expected he or she to run off when you started the scraper ,
but it didn't budge at all / good looking Cat friend ;-)
very cool... damn who created that process..
My dad has one of these and holy crap. We tried to level his pool table with it and a sheet of paper under a corner was throwing it off.
I thought you lost your mind when you started using that scraper, we didn't learn that in high school
What do those levels cost new? What range can you expect to pay for a used one at auction or a flea market? That would be useful information. By the way, I saw your taper micrometer on ebay for $3500.
That level is about $1000 at Grainger. I have two Starrett levels. One is a 199. The other Starrett is longer and slightly different styling. I paid $400 for each of my Starrett levels. I bought my Starrett levels at an estate sale of a deceased machinis6.
Do I need them? Absolutely not. Do I enjoy having them? Yes, very much.
The ask on the taper mic on ebay is insane. I suspect that they're hoping for someone with deep pockets and a high need.
@@isbcornbinder I bought a bunch of measuring tools from a retiring machinist and a Starrett 12" level was included. I was just tickled pink.
If I ever need brain surgery, you’re my man!!!
How do you do this to a level with a bee grove on the underneath as well?
Do what - scrape or calibrate? And do you mean Bee or Vee groove?
@@johncoops6897 yes that right
@@johncoxhead8706 - yes what? You didn't answer either question LOL
For anyone else sitting with a piece of paper and moving it around to figure out the "one direction will be perfectly horizontal" - it is true, but he only know what direction due to his reference level.
Not that *I* was confused for several minutes, no.... :)
With some patients, you can figure it out without a reference level. When you flip the level and it reads on the same mark on both sides, it’s level and you can calibrate the bubble.
Looks like someone was building a house with that level!
Keith, I'm hoping you can help me. I have the identical level to that in 8 in. I have the original box as well, it is extremely old, but in perfect condition, literally NOS. Where I have difficulty is it is labeled number 96. According to Starrett, It should be 1098. The cedar box has a paper label, it is very clear and obviously very very old. I have not been able to find another example with this numbering anywhere online. Starrett is unwilling to help. Do you have any ideas on where I could reference valuation? Is it possible this was simply the 96th offering from Starrett? Does anybody know of a club that collects first edition tools? I know that it is special. I don't have any use for collectibles, if it is worth a great deal I would prefer to sell it, buy a modern one for use, and pocket the remainder. I'm sure some collector out there would be very happy to get this. Do you have any ideas on how to find this buyer?
Scraping class isn't something thats done here in the UK. I have looked, I think it'd be a useful skill to add to the list.
do you have enough milling arbor spacers ?
Tip...Give it a little tap or two with a small piece of wood or plastic. If it stays put you got it.
"I'm going to put it on some really fine sandpaper and just kind of see where the highs and lows are."
Proceeds to do thirty strokes on 220 grit.
If the heat from your fingers affect the function of the level, why are you touching the level while lapping it? I would think you would only touch the bakelite/plastic.
There;s some exaggeration here about fingers touching the level. I’ve experimented with mine over the years, generally after I see, or read about someone saying that.
Yes, if you strongly grip the metal portion of the level with your hand, you can cause a slight heat transfer that will make a very slight error. But two fingers touching it to move it, won’t. The level just has too much mass for that to occur. It also depends on the temperature in your shop. I’ve found that summer temperatures give a slightly different reading that winter temperatures. Because the level isn’t the same in each direction in design, the bottom increases in size more than the top in warm weather, and contracts more in cold weather. So it’s ever so slightly convex in the hot summer, and ever so slightly concave in the cold winter. The readings can be different by about a line of reading, or 0.0005” per foot.
Does it matter? Not generally. Squaring up a lathe bed will not be affected.
@@melgross I see I am throwing them too high again.
What is it contain in the yellow bottle?
GREAT VIDEO. TELL EVERYBODY HELLO, PET THE CATS AND DOGS FOR ME, SEE YOU NEXT TIME...
Buy a new keyboard. Your CapsLock key is broken.
@@johncoops6897, he’s yelling so you can hear him, I think it worked!
@@Hoaxer51 - but will Keith hear him?
I'm curious, why scrape the flat surface of a level? it's a measuring tool. Most measuring tools have smooth surfaces.
I totally agree with scraping machine surfaces that need to retain way oil but why would you want scraped precision measuring surfaces?
Maybe because it may warp slightly if you mount it on the surface grinder. If you blue it up on the surface plate, it is just sitting there the same way as it does while using it. You don't introduce any stresses this way, as long as you don't hold it in your hand for too long, which causes warping due to the temperature difference...
Gauge blocks have lapped surfaces and wring or stick together. The scraped surfaces are equally flat but won't wring to another surface.
True perfection.
You are up early Keith
My level is .0005 per foot, when temps are low I notice it will move just from heat of hand touching it, or even breathing on it.
As a non machinist it’s so hard to believe scraping can be accurate.
Ya, think? Yet the most accurate metrology equipment used by laboratories all over the world, and places like NIST are all running on had scraped ways. The two Moore CMMs in the NIST basement that every gage block is traced to have lovely moon pattern scraping all over them. There is nothing more accurate, even the 3 plate lapping method generates concave or convex surfaces depending on the sequence of laps. A 3 plate scraped method developed by Withworth is an order of magnitude flatter if done right
Maybe Keith just likes mustard, why do you ask?
18:15 Not true. That is not a bearing surface. You do not need nor want "highs and lows". You will tolerate some very shallow lows as a by product of the scraping process but that is NOT your goal for a non bearing surface.
Hi there.
Çan I ask why do you clean the scraped area and then immediately wipe the surface with your fingers.
.
Many many (too many) years ago in my past tool room past - NEVER NEVER touch the scraped surface as this will leave a very thin veneer layer of grease from your fingers.
.
This thin layer will stop "blue" from adhering properly giving false readings.
.
Or is it a habit you have difficulty in stopping yourself from doing (layman's mistake).
Hi first from the UK
number two
Yikes, did I hear scrapping a persission level. I would assume simply shipping would screw up the calibration.
What's a persission level ??? Do you mean scrapping or scraping?
No, these levels are not that delicate. Careful shipping should not affect the accuracy.
So, one could say that the Starrett 199 has a high level of precision?
:)-
I see what you did there!
A question…. Why didn’t you blue before starting to scrape it? I don’t understand the need to scrape the level. Lap it and call it done. The lapping should return it to factory surface considering it was not damaged.
24:00 You're making a mess of adjusting the level. Two things you're doing wrong - fist is assuming that the level is level - something you don't know as you've not put a level on that surface to see that it's level. the second error is adjusting the level at both ends - it's better to make the adjustments with the level the same way round every time. A third thing MAY be you're not giving it enough settling time. A fourth thing is you're rushing the adjustments - don't adjust it by results, adjust it by feel of the screwdriver. If you've turned the screw one degree, leave it for 5 minutes to let it settle.
It's also better if you have the level left to right rather than one end closer to you than the other. In fact, it doesn't matter if you're on a level surface or not - as long as the left hand end of the bubble reads the same every time you flip the level 180°. The heavy metal block to give an accurate repeatable position is good.
" The heavy metal block to give an accurate repeatable position is good."
I'm pleased that you approve of something.. LOL..
You too, are making assumptions, because everything is not shown on camera, doesn't mean Keith hadn't checked it..
Hopefully Keith won't even waste his time reading all that rubbish above. It certainly doesn't deserve a reply.
He has flip the level end for end to adjust and average out the error should his table not be perfectly level. Doesn't matter if it is left/right or front/back.
@@johncoops6897 I think we have just met a “student” that knows more than the teacher. (:-))
@@ellieprice363 - student is a very kind term for it.
Shop cat snoozing on the stool.
I'm a carpenter, our levels are not worthy !
I'm an automotive mechanic and I feel the same way even with my best level
Maybe so, but they _are_ adequate for the task at hand. They are "fit for purpose".
You scarier me menchioning the surface grinder . Just debut the scratches and recalibrate DONE DID .
Is it just me or did I see backlash in the bubble screwdriver adjuster? Haha
You don't need a flat level plane to calibrate a level. What you need is two points set at the length of the level. All you do then is make sure the level reads the same when put on those points and then reverse the level. If it reads the same both ways it's calibrated. What you are doing is introducing the errors of the plate into the level.
I don't recall him ever talking about it, but I presume that he has his plates serviced regularly, and that he has more than one plate... I'm pretty sure that a well maintained plate is going to be *MUCH* flatter than his scraped level...
FFS pay attention. He's not introducing errors.
He is on a almost DEAD flat surface plate,
AND in a position that is almost perfectly level,
AND has two reference plates to ensure that the position is maintained
AND he is flipping the level end-to-end.
Should have sent it back to Starrett for refurbishment
I’m glad we live in a world where people pay this attention to accuracy.
But watching people “scraping” is the most boring thing in that world.
Lol. You keep adjusting it back to the same incorrect place every time. You should not try to get the bubble centered. You should make it be equally off when you turn the level around.