There are 2 tiny pieces of spring steel between the barrel and the tube that provide a nice drag on the barrel. Most people pull the barrel off and lose the springs. Looks like you can see them fall at 8:07. For anyone else watching, once you have one end cap off, put the whole thing in a big zip lock back and pull the barrel off. You'll find the two springs in the bag. They are tiny and virtually impossible to find if you drop them on a shop floor (ask me how I know).
Hi Chris, you were so right. I had trouble getting the barrel off and forgot about the spring. I don’t think I’ll ever see it again 😂😂😂 but I did get the level repaired. Cheers Stuart 🇦🇺
Thanks for Sharing That Keith.... It takes a Big MAN to show his mistakes...We all make mistakes and bad decisions.... But having the guts to show them for the world to see shows what type of Man you are..... Thank you again....
@@emilgabor88 He didn't squeeze it, he turned it and because it was too tight, because someone before him did something to make those ends too tight, it cracked the side of the wall.
Yup, i rarely scream at my screen, but this time i did. I thought he was joking when he put it in the bench vise, i mean, Keith is very experienced and it's very surprising he did. Everyone who has some shop experience knows what happens when tubes and bench vices meet, it will deform, crush or get twisted and mangled no matter how careful you are(unless you stick a hard plug in the tube). Keith know this happens, I guess he just did what usually happens when "I just wanna get this thing out" made his brain fart a bit, it happens to everyone every once in a while.
Keith puts tube in vice: "I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened." ―Obi-Wan Kenobi
I tried replacing a vial once. Got the new vial in, took it out of the box and proceeded to drop it on the garage floor. Replacement vial ordered. Destroyed the tube trying to get it apart. Finally ordered a complete tube assembly. Thanks for showing us that it can be a tough job.
Thank you for for sharing this Mr. Rucker it shows true quality of character to open one’s self to the ridicule of others. Every once in a while it is good to be reminded that things sometimes don’t go easily the way we wanted.
There is going to be a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking on this one and how it should have been handled. However I am grateful you went ahead and posted this one for all to see. There is still plenty to learn from in this video. You could have just as easily swept this one under the rug and none would have been the wiser.
My trick for holding delicate round things - drill/bore a hole in a piece of wood the same size as the part, and cut the wood in half with a band saw to split the hole. That creates a sort of "instant soft jaw" to hold the delicate part.
The difficulty of removing the ends from the first one combined with the marks already on it makes me think that somebody might have used some kind of adhesive to lock them into place.
A lens wrench will grab a tube (full circle only; no cutaway parts) with incredible strength. They are easy to make (and must be made to nearly an exact fit). A hole in a flat plate the exact size of the workpiece; a slit from the edge to the hole; contour the area around the hole to make a stiff collar, and around the slit to make a pair of handles. Spread the handles slightly to get the wrench on the workpiece and gently squeeze the handles together (widen the slit a little if needed). This will give enormous gripping power for torque without crushing a hollow workpiece. If the workpiece diameter matches a reamer in your inventory, such a wrench can be made in minutes. If you have to bore the hole to get it exact, it will take longer. Had you considered just pulling the ends apart? Some kind of frame, and clevises with pins to get a hold on the ends. You could construct a temporary frame with 1-2-3 blocks. Pull with a bit of threaded rod. I know it's easy to armchair-quarterback after the fact, but sometimes a little extra time can reveal alternate solutions. You get things done just fine, but watching the process just seems to generate ideas.
This reminds me of myself one time I was trying to removed a stuck mouthpiece out of a trumpet without the proper tool. It went from bad to worse and it ended up crumpled up in the garbage can. I still cannot believe I did that, but in the heat of battle sometimes you aren't thinking clearly. The best advice you could pass on to your viewers is to take a step back and take a break and think it through. Kudos for publishing it! At least learning took place.
That brings back a memory. Back in high school a fellow trumpet player got her mouth piece stuck. She asked me if I could get it out and I gave it a whirl. Broke both solder joints on the lead pipe, lol. Instructor wasn't impressed.
TgWags69 and Shannon. I have a long time friend who is a band instrument repairman. The tool to pull stuck mouthpieces is simple, I am sure expensive and works great. I still remember him straightening two flutes out that the kids used as light sabers when Star Wars came out. Amazing!
I can imagine some old timer that worked for starrett and knows the procedure almost fainting with a cool rag on his forehead while someone is fanning him watching this lol
Keith, thank you for sharing your work on this precision vial. I like your honesty by showing us how you made a rushed mistake like all humans do; no theater here and thank you for this cincerity . It tells me you're real and trustworthy. Only, I think, like me many times afterwards, you were not in the right mood to do this repair at this moment in time. I recommend reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" to recognize this feeling just like I do after ruining a piece ;-). The Zen part is about recognizing the moments you like to start but you're better of not to do so. After many years I'm really getting better at it, or it's a valid guideline, but occasionally, "in the heat of the moment or a customer breathing in my neck, still f**k pieces up and be sorry that I didn't listen to my own Zen in a timely matter. Maybe relax a little? Have some fun with a turkey? I can wait a long time for your videos or no stress could be valid here? You're a wonderful person to watch and maybe even better after some relaxation time..? . Stay safe, be happy, and thank you Keith! Best, Job
When you reassemble put the end caps in the freezer for an hour or two. Caps will slide right in. Also put a wrap of paper on both ends between the cover tube and the vile tube, keeps a little tension on the cover so it isn't loose but can turn smoothly.
I've no idea about how or even if it's done by Starrett themselves in Athol. It might be something they sub out to a specialty company. But levels depending on there accuracy are either cast (cheap carpenters plastic vial levels) or ground glass for high precision with a large internal radius. The larger the radius the more sensitive and accurate they are. So no doubt it's done on fairly specialized grinding equipment. And after I re-read what you posted then never mind, I finally got it. :-)
The tube doesn't need to be gripped at all. He has a shop press. Normally, a shop press is used to compress objects, but with a little improvisation, you can use it to pull objects apart. Each of those end caps has holes where you can put sacrificial pins to pull the caps off.
I dont know if you will see this comment Keith, but if you do just a heads up for the future when dealing with extracting something like those end caps with vice grips. You can use a slide hammer and and an adaptor bolt that you use in place of the adjusting screw on the vice grips to attach them to the slide hammer shaft. My slide hammer came with the adaptor and has been very handy for those occasions where I need to be able to grab an object to be extracted.
Can you turn a piece of brass the proper size to press thru the bent tube to re shape it and make it useable? Also could you put it in a collet to hold it to press the other end out? Just some ideas I have used in the past for a job similar. Happy New Year.
One 'trick' someone taught me once for a similar problem: Mill the brass bar 'flat' on one side, down enough that you can put the brass tube into the bent tube (with the flat in line with the dent of course). THEN, you just rotate the bar in the tube, and it'll fix it right up!
I thought another possible more modern replacement for the plaster might be ordinary silicone caulk. Pretty removable and it seals to both metal and glass but it's a little flexible after it cures unlike plaster. I don't know if that would be an issue in this kind of application but I might have tried it. And, yeah, when Keith put that tube in the vise, I cringed and thought "V blocks in horizontal position!"
I just picked up one of these Starrett 98's at the Moultrie swap meet last month...........almost perfect condition, thanks for the lesson on how to get it calibrated, got it dead nuts now.
Thank you Keith. I also have the same 12" starrett # 98 but would like to add another one to my collection. I find them with a broken bobble for a reasonable price all the time but have been a little hesitant to purchase it. After watching your video I now feel confidant that I can fix one myself. thank you for your great content keep up the good work
Keith, I knew as soon as you put that tube in the vise, something was going to go wrong. I would have put that drill bit in the tube and used it in the vise. You can still salvage that tube with that drill bit. Thanks for the video. Jon
One theory to all the naysayers out there talking about ruining the tube in the vise....maybe it was a "subliminal" lesson that Keith was trying to teach us. If you think about it, the tube had nicks and gouges in it, and having another tube was his first choice anyhow. I do love ALL the comments by the way, and I learn even more from them, for example, a rod inside the tube before grabbing it with a collet because I didn't think about that aspect and I am sure it would have slipped on me or maybe crushed a bit. Sometimes the best lessons include the mistakes that people make. I know that if I had the patience to do all the work there is to make educational videos, there would be a lot of "bleeps" in them because I do not have one iota of the temperament that Keith has. Just my thoughts. Thank You Keith for another wonderful video!!!
Thank you very much Keith, I have so very much to learn and I soak up so much from you guys sharing your skills on youtube. I am very grateful!. I am also grateful for the fact that I was tested positive for Covid-19 just over 2 weeks ago and fortunately I did not experience a single symptom. I'm 64 so was worried for a while. I work in a hospital so am aware of the effect it can have. Also, my new mill and lathe arrived on the day of my test so happy days. Thank you so much, regards Gareth (from Wales).
Nice recovery and also noticed a disappearing kitten tattoo like I have. Thanks for taking on this subject since many of us will tackle home improvement.
Bad day in the shop Keith. We all get them and its a bummer when we do. I don't think your mind was on the job when you stuck it in the vise. But you got there in the end. Really enjoyed the vid as i might have to do that one day on my level. Now i no how, and how not to, all in the one vid. lol
Dang I am already trying to buy one of these...do not need more people on the lookout for them! Need to level some machines on the cheap and do not want to send any money off to China for one of the import levels. Nice job with the repair and recalibration!
Thanks for this one. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who cringed a little at the tube in the vice, but there was something wrong with it anyway if the end caps were that tight. I kind of wonder if somebody hadn't done that at each end and hammered the ends in or something. You ended up with a working level and that was the goal.
Paper sheet best is to have fine diagonal dark lies drawn on it, or a colour contrasting to the graduations, so that refraction makes reading the bubble easier.
Levels are the only self-proving measuring device. All you needs is a flat surface, its actually better if the surface is NOT level as its easier to fine the level line on the plane.
Most of the basic geometric measuring tools are self proving. That is how they were invented in the first place. Things like surface plates, squares, levels, etc. One of the best books on the subject is Moore's "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy"
I recently obtained a Starrett 98-12 level, and it is exactly like the one with the "wrong vial". Mine has deep knurls and logo imprint and is in excellent condition, and the vial only has black infilled inscribed lines. My interpretation on seeing the replacement vials on Starrett's site, with the dots on the face, the installed vial is just an older style.
My guess is that you're gonna get varying "levels" of comment grief over almost every step in this odyssey of personal discovery, so I'm only gonna say that it's a cold, raining morning here, and you really got my blood warmed up and moving! This would have been an easy one for you to give up on, but you didn't, so thanks for sharing!
The correct way to remove that stuck end is to go forward and backward with the turning, so that you don't end up galling something in there. drip a little penetrating oil in the gap, and let is sit... grip the bottom tang firmly in a milling machine vise that has jaws that are smooth and close perfectly parallel, like a kurt style vise. to get the second half off, grab the tube gently in a collet. On my 6" level, I was able to use the 9/16 collet in my bridgeport mill. Better would have been a 5C collet held in a collet block in a vise, so that you can grab about an 1" or so from the end and reduce the risk of twisting the tube. If mine had been more difficult to remove, I would have put a snug fitting piece of hardened drill rod in the hole of the tang, so that I could pull up gently as I rotated the cap back and forth a bit.
Hi Keith. You could use hot glue; that’s easy to get out later with IPA (IsoPropyl Alcohol); it’d be easy to machine out with that drill bit, or an end mill, too. You can also reheat the tube (gently!) to melt the hot glue and get the glass vial out. This seems like a better option than plaster, epoxy, or super glue. 🙂
The problem is that it will drift with temperature changes. There is a reason Starrett sets them with plaster. It works great, is very stable and repairable, with the right technique.
Interesting (but a tad painful). Inspired me to look up Starrett’s repair information. Very refreshing attitude toward repair. And their levels aren’t outrageously expensive (if you need that level of accuracy). Thanks for the video.
I didn't have a precision level on hand when I set up my new 11" x 27" VFD lathe, so, with the base stand leveled off, and being curious as to how much the lathe bed itself may be out of alignment and not wanting to spend $300+ on a machinist level I instead purchased a $3 laser pen, fashioned a holding fixture using 1- 2- 3 blocks to get above the prisms, mounted it so as to span the rails under the headstock and marked where the dot was at about a 9 foot distant wall, and carefully moved the device down to the tailstock end, and marked that spot as well. It was 1/4" apart or only .0023" IN TOTAL LENGTH (about .06mm) bed twist right out of the box, yeah, I think I can live with that, no need to shim or even think about it again. ☺
This is a place where the difference between precision and accuracy does come into play. One vial is more precise than the other, but accuracy is kind of orthogonal to an appropriate discussion of levels. (Unless & until you want to discuss the marks on the vials.)
You may be able to recover that crushed tube with a brass or hardwood mandrel that just fits into the tube and a soft face hammer. It looked like it developed a crack that would always be there, but it should be possible to get it round again. I'd expect there is a good chance you can drift off that far end with a mandrel or punch of some sort, then maybe sand or turn the plugs down slightly or the inside of the tubing slightly larger to ease the fit.
honestly i saw that tube collapsing as soon as you put it in the vise. i really expected you to at least fabricate a close fit mandrill on the lathe...
That’s exactly what I was thinking. I was cringing when I saw him do that. Also I am amazed at how many people forget to use penetrating oil or heat when disassembling a friction fit.
I suspect your right as you said Keith and the previous owner had something to do with how tight those end caps were held in.Hind sight after the fact is always 20/20. But I have learned over the years a lathe makes a pretty decent light duty screw type press and puller. Bailing wire though each mounting hole and twisted around could be held in one way or another in a lathe chuck at one end and the other wire end in the tool post. Then use either the carriage or top slide to pull. Obviously one end will almost always come off first. So with the one cap off, turn a shaft to closely fit the bore, install both in the correct sized collet and then use the lathe to pull the other end. I'd bet Starrett has a simple bench mounted lever operated puller to do the same job in seconds.
Would have used a punch to tap the second plug out. Getting it initially apart could you have used a pin in each of the fastening holes with one in a chuck on the lathe and another in either the tailstock or in the tool holder to pull them out?
The plaster of paris is also a thermal insulator. It's less likely to expand and contract under working conditions and effect placement and calibration of the vial.
Another reason to use use plaster of paris rather than epoxy is that the plaster's coefficient of thermal expansion is about a ninth of that of epoxy, so it will be more stable under changes in temperature.
Keith messed up so you don't have too. Someone some day will run into the same problem with stuck ends, maybe they see this video and see what not to do and possibly find a good suggestion on how to proceed from all the comments suggesting alternative methods to deal with a stuck end.
What was the reason you didn't send it back to Starrett for repair besides the money? like another poster I was yelling at the screen don't clamp it in the vice, just break out the vial break out the setting compound and tap the end out with a long skinny punch.....
Surely a little heating (followed by freezing?) ought to have been the first thing to try when disassembling the stuck tube? After all, the glass was already broken.
I was surprized the way you went about the removal. Did you clean up the base with a precision stone before you set up the bubble - this is not a critism just I like to see all the steps and learn.
OK, I will move on from the why didn't you and try to figure how you might savage the bent tube so you might build a rough level using the short vial and a shop made base ( Windy Hill maybe?). How about a rod the diameter of the inside diameter pushed through from the good end with some massaging or an expanding mandrel? I know, a lot of work but a great project to video! Greg
That's a shame it broke, good thing you had the spares to make it good again. I had a weird feeling when you clamped it in the vice to get the second end off. wonder if heating it up or soaking it in some hot water may have helped, regardless its too late now. Maybe I'm weird but when it broke the little voice in my head was thinking yay now hes going to machine a custom one and make a cool video on doing it :-).
Vinegar will also aid in removal of plaster of Paris and avoid the need to use tools. Bet you a nickel the other tube had a bit of plaster jamming the end pieces, or the last guy who got into it used glue when reassembling it.
Not sure if it was mentioned, after the first lot of plaster of Paris was put in and the vial was inserted, there didn't seem to be any check on whether the vial had actually made contact with the PoP, this would leave a loose vial. Not sure why water wasn't used to aid removal of the end caps.
If it has plaster of paris in it would soaking it in water for a day or two soften it up so it can be removed easier? Great video, glad you show your mistakes as well.
A little heat would have made removal of the ends much easier. We get caught up in the moment, and forget some of our knowledge. I cringed when you clamped the vial tube in the vise. If you have a ball bearing, or turn a ball of the proper size, you can force it through the tube and straighten it. Good luck in the New Year. May 2021 be much kinder to us all than 2020 has been.
When the plaster was put in the first end, how do you tell how much? I couldn't see that there was plaster actually contacting that end of the vial. Squirt the plaster in thru a tube? To take it apart, use tension then heat &/or vibration & twist. Tension with a turnbuckle? Only one end needs to come off.
“hammer mechanic” is what grandpa used to say about that kind of work (loose translation). Disappointed in the use of even more force instead of re-considering the situation.
I would have been afraid to bang up the adjusting holes on the end caps and would have put a some kerosene or something on the tube parts to try to loosen them. A small amount of heat on the tube might have helped pull the parts apart too. A dent-puller might have been more gentle than the vise-grip teeth on the end caps. I have seen this style level without the base attached, provided as replacement levels for artillery pieces. I don't know the accuracy, but they went for about $10 each at a gun show.. I'm kind of surprised you did put on a coat of black crinkle paint on the base.
As soon as you clamped the tube in the vise after getting out the one end I cringed, I had a feeling that the job was gonna go all to hell. Ha! Nice try.
Think I would of used a brass pin just a bit smaller than the ID of the tube so that the tube could be lightly clamped without crushing it in the vise. Then tapped out the end piece using the brass pin.
I must admit feeling the same in the pit of my stomach - but it seemed that the assembly he was working with had already been ruined. That first end came out much too hard - he’d have never gotten it back together.
Maaan....! Can't believe you put that thin wall tubing in the vice...!!! What were you thinking...LOL ( That must have been a test to see if anyone was watching )
The inside of the glass tube is ground (inside diameter is made slightly larger) then it is filled and sealed. The markings are cut into the outside of the vial and then filled with pigment. The air bubble will sit in the slightly larger diameter of the tube when it is level.
@Butt Face - Technically yes, it works well when there's a lot of surface area of the plaster exposed to the acid solution. However, when you've got a very small amount exposed in a narrow gap between two parts (much like parts rusted together), the chemical action is impractically slow. It's very worth your time to speed it up by getting (and keeping) the temperature of your acid solution as high as you reasonably can, and using an ultrasound tank to improve the wetting and penetration.
Hello Keith, Yesterday I bought a 12" machinist level that looks exactly like the one you restored in this video. BTW: I paid $2.00 for it. It's not marked Starrett on it rather it's has "ECM No. 7". Do you think mine is a rebranded Starrett or just a knock-off?
Any advise on surface grinding the back side of these? I have one that the main surface is pretty dinged up and rocking, not quite sure how I plan to hold it on the magnet..
Remove the vial from the level and clamp it with the flat base up in a vise using brass shims if necessary. Put the vise on your surface plate magnet and stick a dial indicator somewhere on the grinder that is fixed. Tweak the level around in the vise until it reads mostly flat. Gently grind a new flat base using the surface grinder since the vise won't be holding the level very well. Works. I've done it.
There are 2 tiny pieces of spring steel between the barrel and the tube that provide a nice drag on the barrel. Most people pull the barrel off and lose the springs. Looks like you can see them fall at 8:07.
For anyone else watching, once you have one end cap off, put the whole thing in a big zip lock back and pull the barrel off. You'll find the two springs in the bag. They are tiny and virtually impossible to find if you drop them on a shop floor (ask me how I know).
This great....a little education thrown in... what more could we ask for???
How do you know the tiny springs are impossible to find?😂😂
@@howardosborne8647 It's impossible to know if he also knew they were there. So, it's impossible for him to find them.
Thanks Chris, I just picked up a Starrett 4” and it needs reconditioning so I’ll take your advice with the bag. Cheers Stuart 🇦🇺
Hi Chris, you were so right. I had trouble getting the barrel off and forgot about the spring. I don’t think I’ll ever see it again 😂😂😂 but I did get the level repaired. Cheers Stuart 🇦🇺
Thanks for Sharing That Keith.... It takes a Big MAN to show his mistakes...We all make mistakes and bad decisions.... But having the guts to show them for the world to see shows what type of Man you are..... Thank you again....
To squeeze a tube in the vice , it is not mistake...
@@emilgabor88 He didn't squeeze it, he turned it and because it was too tight, because someone before him did something to make those ends too tight, it cracked the side of the wall.
@@aserta same shit. If you think that it is a good ideea, I am sad for you...
Agreed, Adam shows his mistakes also and doesn't edit them out. It's admirable and even though I joke around with comments, these fellas are good men.
How many screamed "NO!" when he put the tube in the vise?
All...
Gosh, it's so easy to be a youtube commenter :)
I cringed for sure....please don't do that Kieth....let me take care of it please!
Yup, i rarely scream at my screen, but this time i did.
I thought he was joking when he put it in the bench vise, i mean, Keith is very experienced and it's very surprising he did. Everyone who has some shop experience knows what happens when tubes and bench vices meet, it will deform, crush or get twisted and mangled no matter how careful you are(unless you stick a hard plug in the tube).
Keith know this happens, I guess he just did what usually happens when "I just wanna get this thing out" made his brain fart a bit, it happens to everyone every once in a while.
Theremoore
William hastings EMIL GABOR
Erik Bonger Reckon you would scream when you change your Panty Liners.
Keith puts tube in vice:
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened."
―Obi-Wan Kenobi
I guess I am kinda off topic but do anybody know a good website to watch new series online ?
@Jameson Solomon i would suggest Flixzone. You can find it by googling =)
@Finnegan Eric yup, I've been watching on Flixzone for months myself :)
@Finnegan Eric Thank you, I went there and it seems to work :) I really appreciate it !
@Jameson Solomon you are welcome xD
I tried replacing a vial once. Got the new vial in, took it out of the box and proceeded to drop it on the garage floor. Replacement vial ordered. Destroyed the tube trying to get it apart. Finally ordered a complete tube assembly.
Thanks for showing us that it can be a tough job.
Thank you for for sharing this Mr. Rucker it shows true quality of character to open one’s self to the ridicule of others. Every once in a while it is good to be reminded that things sometimes don’t go easily the way we wanted.
There is going to be a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking on this one and how it should have been handled. However I am grateful you went ahead and posted this one for all to see. There is still plenty to learn from in this video. You could have just as easily swept this one under the rug and none would have been the wiser.
My trick for holding delicate round things - drill/bore a hole in a piece of wood the same size as the part, and cut the wood in half with a band saw to split the hole. That creates a sort of "instant soft jaw" to hold the delicate part.
The difficulty of removing the ends from the first one combined with the marks already on it makes me think that somebody might have used some kind of adhesive to lock them into place.
A lens wrench will grab a tube (full circle only; no cutaway parts) with incredible strength. They are easy to make (and must be made to nearly an exact fit). A hole in a flat plate the exact size of the workpiece; a slit from the edge to the hole; contour the area around the hole to make a stiff collar, and around the slit to make a pair of handles. Spread the handles slightly to get the wrench on the workpiece and gently squeeze the handles together (widen the slit a little if needed). This will give enormous gripping power for torque without crushing a hollow workpiece. If the workpiece diameter matches a reamer in your inventory, such a wrench can be made in minutes. If you have to bore the hole to get it exact, it will take longer.
Had you considered just pulling the ends apart? Some kind of frame, and clevises with pins to get a hold on the ends. You could construct a temporary frame with 1-2-3 blocks. Pull with a bit of threaded rod.
I know it's easy to armchair-quarterback after the fact, but sometimes a little extra time can reveal alternate solutions. You get things done just fine, but watching the process just seems to generate ideas.
This reminds me of myself one time I was trying to removed a stuck mouthpiece out of a trumpet without the proper tool. It went from bad to worse and it ended up crumpled up in the garbage can. I still cannot believe I did that, but in the heat of battle sometimes you aren't thinking clearly. The best advice you could pass on to your viewers is to take a step back and take a break and think it through. Kudos for publishing it! At least learning took place.
That brings back a memory. Back in high school a fellow trumpet player got her mouth piece stuck. She asked me if I could get it out and I gave it a whirl. Broke both solder joints on the lead pipe, lol. Instructor wasn't impressed.
TgWags69 and Shannon. I have a long time friend who is a band instrument repairman. The tool to pull stuck mouthpieces is simple, I am sure expensive and works great. I still remember him straightening two flutes out that the kids used as light sabers when Star Wars came out. Amazing!
I can imagine some old timer that worked for starrett and knows the procedure almost fainting with a cool rag on his forehead while someone is fanning him watching this lol
Keith, thank you for sharing your work on this precision vial. I like your honesty by showing us how you made a rushed mistake like all humans do; no theater here and thank you for this cincerity . It tells me you're real and trustworthy. Only, I think, like me many times afterwards, you were not in the right mood to do this repair at this moment in time. I recommend reading "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance" to recognize this feeling just like I do after ruining a piece ;-). The Zen part is about recognizing the moments you like to start but you're better of not to do so. After many years I'm really getting better at it, or it's a valid guideline, but occasionally, "in the heat of the moment or a customer breathing in my neck, still f**k pieces up and be sorry that I didn't listen to my own Zen in a timely matter. Maybe relax a little? Have some fun with a turkey? I can wait a long time for your videos or no stress could be valid here? You're a wonderful person to watch and maybe even better after some relaxation time..? . Stay safe, be happy, and thank you Keith! Best, Job
When you reassemble put the end caps in the freezer for an hour or two. Caps will slide right in. Also put a wrap of paper on both ends between the cover tube and the vile tube, keeps a little tension on the cover so it isn't loose but can turn smoothly.
I found myself shouting at you when you squeezed the tube in the vice. Oh Keith!!
Kinda dramatic aren't you? Got a better idea?
@@johnirwin1837 I was thinking of punching it out with a drift from the open end.
I wondered about appling some heat or penetrating fluid.
@@grahamtudman35 you gonna hold the tube in your bare hands? good luck with that.
@@johnirwin1837 Hi John. Yes there are many ways to skin a cat. Squeezing a hollow tube in a vice (vise) is not recommended! Bill
The surface you use to set the level does not have to be perfectly level, as long as the bubble reads the same in both directions, it is level
Just what I was about to say !! Another good "how to" though
Yup, in physics and math its called an equipotential line.
Self-checking I think is what they’re called in the book “Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy” by Moore.
Great info on tool repair. Goes to show even with good intentions we have to modify our plans to get the job done. Well done sir!
At 1:30: "precision ground bubble". I'd love to see how starrit grinds their bubbles!
I've no idea about how or even if it's done by Starrett themselves in Athol. It might be something they sub out to a specialty company. But levels depending on there accuracy are either cast (cheap carpenters plastic vial levels) or ground glass for high precision with a large internal radius. The larger the radius the more sensitive and accurate they are. So no doubt it's done on fairly specialized grinding equipment. And after I re-read what you posted then never mind, I finally got it. :-)
Why, in a precision bubble grinder, of course... ;)
Yes, this is how not to replace a broken vial. We learned a lot from this, as well as Keith.
Why didn't you use a collet in a lathe or mill to grip the tube around it's perimeter?
With a snug fitting pin on the inside too
The tube doesn't need to be gripped at all. He has a shop press. Normally, a shop press is used to compress objects, but with a little improvisation, you can use it to pull objects apart. Each of those end caps has holes where you can put sacrificial pins to pull the caps off.
@@fotopfanatic what's the anchor point to remove the second cap once the first is off?
@@StyxHackshop You then tap it out from the open end
@@fotopfanatic I agree. A sensible, yet creative solution that would have worked.
I got the chill's when I saw this. WOW. It's a precision tool. I recently replaced two units bought from starrett
Next episode of his channel may be "Making the Inside Tube for a Starrett 98 Level.
I dont know if you will see this comment Keith, but if you do just a heads up for the future when dealing with extracting something like those end caps with vice grips. You can use a slide hammer and and an adaptor bolt that you use in place of the adjusting screw on the vice grips to attach them to the slide hammer shaft. My slide hammer came with the adaptor and has been very handy for those occasions where I need to be able to grab an object to be extracted.
Can you turn a piece of brass the proper size to press thru the bent tube to re shape it and make it useable? Also could you put it in a collet to hold it to press the other end out? Just some ideas I have used in the past for a job similar. Happy New Year.
One 'trick' someone taught me once for a similar problem: Mill the brass bar 'flat' on one side, down enough that you can put the brass tube into the bent tube (with the flat in line with the dent of course). THEN, you just rotate the bar in the tube, and it'll fix it right up!
@@TheFreshmanWIT Good idea
I thought another possible more modern replacement for the plaster might be ordinary silicone caulk.
Pretty removable and it seals to both metal and glass but it's a little flexible after it cures unlike plaster.
I don't know if that would be an issue in this kind of application but I might have tried it.
And, yeah, when Keith put that tube in the vise, I cringed and thought "V blocks in horizontal position!"
I just picked up one of these Starrett 98's at the Moultrie swap meet last month...........almost perfect condition, thanks for the lesson on how to get it calibrated, got it dead nuts now.
Wow I could have never repaired mine without seeing how you did it. Really a good video thank you so much.
Thank you Keith. I also have the same 12" starrett # 98 but would like to add another one to my collection. I find them with a broken bobble for a reasonable price all the time but have been a little hesitant to purchase it. After watching your video I now feel confidant that I can fix one myself. thank you for your great content keep up the good work
something for next time i might have used a piping bag to squeeze the plaster of paris in the tube
Keith, I knew as soon as you put that tube in the vise, something was going to go wrong. I would have put that drill bit in the tube and used it in the vise. You can still salvage that tube with that drill bit. Thanks for the video. Jon
thanks for the video keith, your a good man
One theory to all the naysayers out there talking about ruining the tube in the vise....maybe it was a "subliminal" lesson that Keith was trying to teach us. If you think about it, the tube had nicks and gouges in it, and having another tube was his first choice anyhow. I do love ALL the comments by the way, and I learn even more from them, for example, a rod inside the tube before grabbing it with a collet because I didn't think about that aspect and I am sure it would have slipped on me or maybe crushed a bit. Sometimes the best lessons include the mistakes that people make. I know that if I had the patience to do all the work there is to make educational videos, there would be a lot of "bleeps" in them because I do not have one iota of the temperament that Keith has. Just my thoughts. Thank You Keith for another wonderful video!!!
THANK YOU...for sharing. Watched and very much enjoyed.
i did that same job a couple of years ago. i used a {rifle) barrel vise to hold the tube and align the ends. worked well.
Thank you very much Keith, I have so very much to learn and I soak up so much from you guys sharing your skills on youtube. I am very grateful!. I am also grateful for the fact that I was tested positive for Covid-19 just over 2 weeks ago and fortunately I did not experience a single symptom. I'm 64 so was worried for a while. I work in a hospital so am aware of the effect it can have. Also, my new mill and lathe arrived on the day of my test so happy days. Thank you so much, regards Gareth (from Wales).
Think of it this way; you were so excited to see your new machines that it blew away the covid-19
@@leeklemetti1887 Indeed, I think it might hae had something to do with it! Best wished Lee
Is the paper used for contrast, "acid free paper". Otherwise it will yellow over time.
That is called "patina".
Good job Keith, enjoyed the comments!
Very interesting Keith - thanks for yet another useful video.
i admire your skill and knowledge, watching your channel is a pleasure keith keep them coming!
Nice recovery and also noticed a disappearing kitten tattoo like I have.
Thanks for taking on this subject since many of us will tackle home improvement.
Thanks Keith for showing how to calibrate the level...I've passed up purchasing a used one because I didn't know this info.
Bad day in the shop Keith. We all get them and its a bummer when we do. I don't think your mind was on the job when you stuck it in the vise. But you got there in the end. Really enjoyed the vid as i might have to do that one day on my level. Now i no how, and how not to, all in the one vid. lol
Happy New Year, Keith. Here's to a better one than 2020.
Great info Keith, keep'um coming.
Dang I am already trying to buy one of these...do not need more people on the lookout for them! Need to level some machines on the cheap and do not want to send any money off to China for one of the import levels. Nice job with the repair and recalibration!
Thanks for this one. I'm sure I wasn't the only one who cringed a little at the tube in the vice, but there was something wrong with it anyway if the end caps were that tight. I kind of wonder if somebody hadn't done that at each end and hammered the ends in or something. You ended up with a working level and that was the goal.
Paper sheet best is to have fine diagonal dark lies drawn on it, or a colour contrasting to the graduations, so that refraction makes reading the bubble easier.
thank you sir, i always enjoy yer stuff. i have to admit though this time i winced a couple times when you were workin to get that apart.
Levels are the only self-proving measuring device. All you needs is a flat surface, its actually better if the surface is NOT level as its easier to fine the level line on the plane.
Most of the basic geometric measuring tools are self proving. That is how they were invented in the first place. Things like surface plates, squares, levels, etc. One of the best books on the subject is Moore's "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy"
I recently obtained a Starrett 98-12 level, and it is exactly like the one with the "wrong vial".
Mine has deep knurls and logo imprint and is in excellent condition, and the vial only has black infilled inscribed lines.
My interpretation on seeing the replacement vials on Starrett's site, with the dots on the face, the installed vial is just an older style.
Love to see a video of you fabricating a new barrel to refurbish that level
My guess is that you're gonna get varying "levels" of comment grief over almost every step in this odyssey of personal discovery, so I'm only gonna say that it's a cold, raining morning here, and you really got my blood warmed up and moving! This would have been an easy one for you to give up on, but you didn't, so thanks for sharing!
The correct way to remove that stuck end is to go forward and backward with the turning, so that you don't end up galling something in there. drip a little penetrating oil in the gap, and let is sit... grip the bottom tang firmly in a milling machine vise that has jaws that are smooth and close perfectly parallel, like a kurt style vise. to get the second half off, grab the tube gently in a collet. On my 6" level, I was able to use the 9/16 collet in my bridgeport mill. Better would have been a 5C collet held in a collet block in a vise, so that you can grab about an 1" or so from the end and reduce the risk of twisting the tube.
If mine had been more difficult to remove, I would have put a snug fitting piece of hardened drill rod in the hole of the tang, so that I could pull up gently as I rotated the cap back and forth a bit.
Hi Keith. You could use hot glue; that’s easy to get out later with IPA (IsoPropyl Alcohol); it’d be easy to machine out with that drill bit, or an end mill, too. You can also reheat the tube (gently!) to melt the hot glue and get the glass vial out. This seems like a better option than plaster, epoxy, or super glue. 🙂
The problem is that it will drift with temperature changes. There is a reason Starrett sets them with plaster. It works great, is very stable and repairable, with the right technique.
Interesting (but a tad painful). Inspired me to look up Starrett’s repair information. Very refreshing attitude toward repair. And their levels aren’t outrageously expensive (if you need that level of accuracy). Thanks for the video.
I didn't have a precision level on hand when I set up my new 11" x 27" VFD lathe, so, with the base stand leveled off, and being curious as to how much the lathe bed itself may be out of alignment and not wanting to spend $300+ on a machinist level I instead purchased a $3 laser pen, fashioned a holding fixture using 1- 2- 3 blocks to get above the prisms, mounted it so as to span the rails under the headstock and marked where the dot was at about a 9 foot distant wall, and carefully moved the device down to the tailstock end, and marked that spot as well. It was 1/4" apart or only .0023" IN TOTAL LENGTH (about .06mm) bed twist right out of the box, yeah, I think I can live with that, no need to shim or even think about it again. ☺
Thanks Keith, off to buy some plaster of Paris tomorrow. Have had a 98 sitting on the shelf waiting for the missing ingredient.
This is a place where the difference between precision and accuracy does come into play. One vial is more precise than the other, but accuracy is kind of orthogonal to an appropriate discussion of levels. (Unless & until you want to discuss the marks on the vials.)
This is a much appreciated video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I have one which needs attention as well.
I just shut my eyes when he even thought about doing the job ....🤣
Yes, this sort of thing seems to happen to Keith more than seldom.
I stopped seven minutes in to read the comments because I know I'm not the only one who is wincing by this point! Too much force...
Thanks, I'll have to check the calibration on the one I inherited from my great grandfather
Thanks for sharing!
You may be able to recover that crushed tube with a brass or hardwood mandrel that just fits into the tube and a soft face hammer. It looked like it developed a crack that would always be there, but it should be possible to get it round again. I'd expect there is a good chance you can drift off that far end with a mandrel or punch of some sort, then maybe sand or turn the plugs down slightly or the inside of the tubing slightly larger to ease the fit.
I had the same problem. I ended up clamping the tab in a vise , a little WD down the tube and heating with turbo torch to 200F. Came right out.
1:30 . . ."precision ground bubble"... Damn, Starrett must have some interesting manufacturing techniques 😎 😆.
honestly i saw that tube collapsing as soon as you put it in the vise. i really expected you to at least fabricate a close fit mandrill on the lathe...
That’s exactly what I was thinking. I was cringing when I saw him do that. Also I am amazed at how many people forget to use penetrating oil or heat when disassembling a friction fit.
I suspect your right as you said Keith and the previous owner had something to do with how tight those end caps were held in.Hind sight after the fact is always 20/20. But I have learned over the years a lathe makes a pretty decent light duty screw type press and puller. Bailing wire though each mounting hole and twisted around could be held in one way or another in a lathe chuck at one end and the other wire end in the tool post. Then use either the carriage or top slide to pull. Obviously one end will almost always come off first. So with the one cap off, turn a shaft to closely fit the bore, install both in the correct sized collet and then use the lathe to pull the other end. I'd bet Starrett has a simple bench mounted lever operated puller to do the same job in seconds.
Would have used a punch to tap the second plug out. Getting it initially apart could you have used a pin in each of the fastening holes with one in a chuck on the lathe and another in either the tailstock or in the tool holder to pull them out?
I could watch this channel all day! Very informative and well presented!
The plaster of paris is also a thermal insulator. It's less likely to expand and contract under working conditions and effect placement and calibration of the vial.
Slide hammer was the tool you needed
Another reason to use use plaster of paris rather than epoxy is that the plaster's coefficient of thermal expansion is about a ninth of that of epoxy, so it will be more stable under changes in temperature.
Keith messed up so you don't have too. Someone some day will run into the same problem with stuck ends, maybe they see this video and see what not to do and possibly find a good suggestion on how to proceed from all the comments suggesting alternative methods to deal with a stuck end.
What was the reason you didn't send it back to Starrett for repair besides the money? like another poster I was yelling at the screen don't clamp it in the vice, just break out the vial break out the setting compound and tap the end out with a long skinny punch.....
Surely a little heating (followed by freezing?) ought to have been the first thing to try when disassembling the stuck tube? After all, the glass was already broken.
Enjoyed Keith!
ATB, robin
I was surprized the way you went about the removal. Did you clean up the base with a precision stone before you set up the bubble - this is not a critism just I like to see all the steps and learn.
Keith Always on the Level
Better now than when it started.
OK, I will move on from the why didn't you and try to figure how you might savage the bent tube so you might build a rough level using the short vial and a shop made base ( Windy Hill maybe?). How about a rod the diameter of the inside diameter pushed through from the good end with some massaging or an expanding mandrel? I know, a lot of work but a great project to video! Greg
That's a shame it broke, good thing you had the spares to make it good again. I had a weird feeling when you clamped it in the vice to get the second end off. wonder if heating it up or soaking it in some hot water may have helped, regardless its too late now. Maybe I'm weird but when it broke the little voice in my head was thinking yay now hes going to machine a custom one and make a cool video on doing it :-).
Vinegar will also aid in removal of plaster of Paris and avoid the need to use tools.
Bet you a nickel the other tube had a bit of plaster jamming the end pieces, or the last guy who got into it used glue when reassembling it.
Not sure if it was mentioned, after the first lot of plaster of Paris was put in and the vial was inserted, there didn't seem to be any check on whether the vial had actually made contact with the PoP, this would leave a loose vial. Not sure why water wasn't used to aid removal of the end caps.
If it has plaster of paris in it would soaking it in water for a day or two soften it up so it can be removed easier? Great video, glad you show your mistakes as well.
On the Level as usual.
A little heat would have made removal of the ends much easier. We get caught up in the moment, and forget some of our knowledge. I cringed when you clamped the vial tube in the vise. If you have a ball bearing, or turn a ball of the proper size, you can force it through the tube and straighten it. Good luck in the New Year. May 2021 be much kinder to us all than 2020 has been.
Good content prob wouldnt have attempted vial replacement before watching video.👍👍
When the plaster was put in the first end, how do you tell how much? I couldn't see that there was plaster actually contacting that end of the vial. Squirt the plaster in thru a tube?
To take it apart, use tension then heat &/or vibration & twist. Tension with a turnbuckle? Only one end needs to come off.
“hammer mechanic” is what grandpa used to say about that kind of work (loose translation). Disappointed in the use of even more force instead of re-considering the situation.
I would have been afraid to bang up the adjusting holes on the end caps and would have put a some kerosene or something on the tube parts to try to loosen them. A small amount of heat on the tube might have helped pull the parts apart too.
A dent-puller might have been more gentle than the vise-grip teeth on the end caps.
I have seen this style level without the base attached, provided as replacement levels for artillery pieces. I don't know the accuracy, but they went for about $10 each at a gun show..
I'm kind of surprised you did put on a coat of black crinkle paint on the base.
Happy New Year Keith...
As soon as you clamped the tube in the vise after getting out the one end I cringed, I had a feeling that the job was gonna go all to hell. Ha! Nice try.
Yeah, not one of his finest moments
One level repaired .. oh and one scrap
When he put that thin tube in the vise, I yelled “no” out loud.
Think I would of used a brass pin just a bit smaller than the ID of the tube so that the tube could be lightly clamped without crushing it in the vise. Then tapped out the end piece using the brass pin.
I must admit feeling the same in the pit of my stomach - but it seemed that the assembly he was working with had already been ruined. That first end came out much too hard - he’d have never gotten it back together.
Maaan....! Can't believe you put that thin wall tubing in the vice...!!! What were you thinking...LOL ( That must have been a test to see if anyone was watching )
How do you grind a bubble ?
Precisely or otherwise 😁
The inside of the glass tube is ground (inside diameter is made slightly larger) then it is filled and sealed. The markings are cut into the outside of the vial and then filled with pigment. The air bubble will sit in the slightly larger diameter of the tube when it is level.
I think submerging the level in warm water would have loosened/disolved the plaster.
@Butt Face - Technically yes, it works well when there's a lot of surface area of the plaster exposed to the acid solution. However, when you've got a very small amount exposed in a narrow gap between two parts (much like parts rusted together), the chemical action is impractically slow.
It's very worth your time to speed it up by getting (and keeping) the temperature of your acid solution as high as you reasonably can, and using an ultrasound tank to improve the wetting and penetration.
Hello Keith, Yesterday I bought a 12" machinist level that looks exactly like the one you restored in this video. BTW: I paid $2.00 for it. It's not marked Starrett on it rather it's has "ECM No. 7". Do you think mine is a rebranded Starrett or just a knock-off?
Sir, why didn't you use a thread loosener or WD-40 to help get the end caps off?
Wonder if mixing the plaster of Paris thin and pouring it into the case and letting the vial float might work....vial laying down
Any advise on surface grinding the back side of these? I have one that the main surface is pretty dinged up and rocking, not quite sure how I plan to hold it on the magnet..
Remove the vial from the level and clamp it with the flat base up in a vise using brass shims if necessary. Put the vise on your surface plate magnet and stick a dial indicator somewhere on the grinder that is fixed. Tweak the level around in the vise until it reads mostly flat. Gently grind a new flat base using the surface grinder since the vise won't be holding the level very well. Works. I've done it.
@@sandersn4 Roger that, thanks!