I certainly prefer the theory that the Jockey and Xenomorph pre-date the Engineers and Goo [with the goo being based upon whatever secretions, rather than ovum, the Facehuggers insert into their hosts.] This theory has multiple benefits, and I'd love to see it displayed in Canon for these reasons: - It reintroduces mystery as to the origins of the Xeno and space Jockey. - It shows that the engineers designed their suits to replicate the look of the Jockey's though unable to recreate their size [perhaps they see them as gods or devils..... they could be the creators of the engineers(gods), the xeno's(devils), or a race that was in all out war against the xeno's and at one point saved the Engineer homeworld from them (gods)/infested their homeworld with xeno's which the engineers managed to fight out or had to abandon their world (devils)] - It explains the xenomorph mural from Promethius.
I like the idea of 2 versions of the jockeys, theoretically one could have infected the other with a viral pathogen that caused sterility, realizing they couldn't procreate anymore they may have engineered a bioweapon and unleashed it on the other faction thus the infertile faction sent the xenos after a fertile faction. Eventually mutually assured destruction resulted in them uplifting a lesser species we would call the engineers who would create the black goo which could cure the infertile faction still in stasis but they didn't know where their gods dwelled and so they seeded their DNA across many worlds in the hopes of recreating their gods, which could explain the anger of the Prometheus engineer when he finally met his first humans after a couple of thousand years of slumber. Even though his crew and mission were to wipe out humanity. Another idea I have is the engineers were created/uplifted by the true jockeys as before, but we're also of 2 minds. We do see in Prometheus the engineers in the holograms running from something, but I don't remember ever seeing that something and it halted the destruction of earth by the engineers. I doubt the engineers are scared of much but it's possible their own gods (the jockeys) were hunting down the faction of destroyer engineers. This multi faction idea seems more plausible to me honestly though. The jockeys seem the use advanced humanesque technology vs the engineers more biotech. Perhaps at one point they were allied races, terraforming worlds and seeding them with life, then the 2 species disagreed on what kind of interference they should have with any intelligent species that formed and would go to war decimating both but with the interfering engineers gaining the upper hand by creating or using the black goo to cause genetic sterility in the jockeys causing them to die out. Their ships after all have similar designs in that horseshoe like shape. Also the xenomorphs aliens could be the reason most advanced species eventually die off. Created long before either species achieved space flight as we see that the xenos can and do survive in the vacuum of space perhaps they have several "hive worlds" spread across the cosmos not just the galaxy. And interstellar species find them on occasion causing their civilizations to eventually collapse.
Growing up, I had several nightmares about the xenomorphs. But the very first Alien-inspired dream I remember featured the skeletal Space Jockey instead, lounging on a pile of bones in my Jr. High cafeteria.
I remember one of the Alien Omnibus volumes had a short story about a crew of Space Jockeys raiding a Xeno nest for eggs. They take heavy losses but escape without an outbreak. Then it revealed why they take eggs. They're a delicacy, they just collect them as a foodsource.
Damn, I had to cut the video off at Aliens Dark Descent as I just started it and didn't wanna be spoiled, but holy shit am I excited even more so! Great video so far and definitely going to finish it after beating the game.
I loved the mystery as it was. The Space Jockey was a long-deceaced alien creature from somewhere else. In film Ridley Scott completely ruined the mythology, when he made Prometheus. He actually managed to make me like Alien a little less. Impressive, Mr. Scott.
in prometheus it's different sized too. that scene was so dumb my mind wiped it out I guess. other things don't match either, but ridley just wanted to jank it up - and/or changed it on the fly. anyway the societal timeline between prometheus and alien doesn't fit. and if someone says nostromo looks janky because it's a cargo hauler, that's not the point, the point is that space crusing by 2100 would have been mundane privately fundable affair for rich people, that's one of the only kind of details of worldbuilding that you can actually snatch from alien. so any randos could've gone to look for the prometheus expedition. it's a reboot, basically, but ridley wanted to pretend in some interviews like it wasn't and like that he had the big grand plot to reveal (which never probably existed).
14:55, the space jockey here got mad when an android attempted to shake his hand ? Reminds me of when the Engineer got mad upon learning that david was an android created by humans and ripped his head off in prometheus
Yeah, seems like it. I’m not sure how the Space Jockey knew that crewman WAS a synth, though. I just don’t know if he would have reacted the same way if ALL those crew members were human, or if he really did hate androids and somehow detected either the crewman WAS a synth, or WASN’T a human. Equally, I’m not sure if the Prometheus movie’s Engineer hated just synths, or the entire Prometheus crew since they were all human (other than David, obviously) - after all, his original mission was to wipe us out. Via Lore channels, I heard that speaking or listening or interacting with species other than his own was exhausting - and could even shorten his life span by either thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. But the AVP Fandom website states the Engineers lifespan is 150 years. I also heard the Engineer may have been shocked at our level of technology, specifically FTL space travel and our ability to create artificial life. He became angry, gruesomely attacking David and going berserk on the remaining crew. What do you think? Other than I may be over thinking? :) Oh, and I originally thought, or was told by some channel, the Engineers and Space Jockeys were the same species…although the episode(s) could have been from a LONG time ago. But in Outbreak, the Elephant alien is obviously not an Engineer. So what is he? Is this the Progenitor species? Did they create the Engineer race? The AVP Fandom website states the Engineer/Pilot/Space Jockey terms are for one and the same species, making the Outbreak alien’s species identity even more curious. It may be that Outbreak was written well before Prometheus, and therefore well before it was ret conned that the Engineers and Space Jockeys were one and the same. Perhaps it, along with countless other stories and novels, was written with the best theories and info available. If so, then I wish the movies were written so as to follow along with this, for lack of a better description, ‘Expanded Universe’ canon. It would be a shame to invalidate so much non-theater film content.
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
@@ronjon7942 I believe the engineer in prometheus didnt hate A.I and synths , i believe he killed him after realizing humans have become even more advanced to create things like David and it either scared him or made him realize we've grown to be even more of a threat or simply hate the idea that Weyland was pretending to be a god because of his creation. But then again, maybe the engineers do hate A.Is and synths, why would such an advanced race be doing all the dangerous labour themselves manually such as handling the black goo, space traveling, preparing and starting their ships ? I believe it was the creator of the movie prometheus was trying to make the engineers and space jockeys the same species, i remember them referencing the original alien movie and how the space jockey intrigued a lot of the fans and everyone was asking questions about him but not who he was . But after seeing the ancient citizens in the latest alien game, dark descent, i do believe they're trying to keep them as 2 seperate species. If u asked me , i believe the Space jockeys created the engineers, why would the engineers have such a similar technology design in their ships , suits ? they seem to be heavily influenced by them unless the engineers at some point just inherited a ton of their technology.
Engineer in Prometheus attacked David because David basically implied that Weyland was looking for the secret to immortality and that humans now fancy themselves as Gods because they created sentient life (David specifically). The engineer was offended by the arrogance and reacted violently.
@@ronjon7942considering the surviving engineer would have started killing them either way since like you said the crews whole mission was to wipe us all out
My theory is that the engineers and space jockeys both come from the ancient titans seen in the alien RPG and engineers are like a perfectly designed subspecies of the space jockey that are obsessed with evolution, creation and DNA manipulation. whilst the space jockeys are much older and advanced civilisation that's dying out/ extinct that were preparing to war or help the engineers. Hence the manipulation of the original gold goo, maybe synthesized and modified for bio warfare, hence the drastic effects of the black goo.
So.....and it still bugs me....the jockey in the original Alien is huge...yet the ones in Prometheus are just very tall men and nowhere near the size of the one in the seat....
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
Yeah, I agree, even in the scripts and drafts, they were meant to be taller. The only good thing about it is, now that there is that obvious size difference, it gives more credence to the idea that they are 2 different things. The franchise is heading in that direction from what I can see.
This is one criticism that I cant accept. The engineers were shown to be masters of genetic engineering to the extent they could jumpstart life on a dead planet. The ability to change the size of individuals to a large degree would be trivial to them. While the size difference is jarring on screen, it is easily explained in universe, and not just because they are aliens. At the same time, the space jockey and the engineers could very well be different species of aliens, with the engineers simply adapting jockey technology for their own use. My overall point is the size difference between the two on screen representations of the space jockey and the engineer, which a lot of people use as “proof” they are different species is nonsense and easily explainable in universe logically. By that logic, the race seen in Dark Descent are a third species as they are approximately 10 feet taller than the space jockeys, so now we are up to 3 intelligent alien species who are in some weird waterfall of copy-catting each other ad infinitum.
@@LV_223 " The engineers were shown to be masters of genetic engineering to the extent they could jumpstart life on a dead planet. " That was literally BILLIONS of years ago. It seems absurd that they'd still exist as anything cohesive and/or recognizable only two thousand years ago.
I feel like while i hate Prometheus I feel like it did leave room for the space jockeys and engineers to be 2 different species. David tells the girl in that movie "If the engineers created us, then what created the engineers." I feel this leaves plausible deniability that maybe the space jockeys created the engineers. the engineers could have very well worshiped the space jockeys and created their space suits based off their gods.
I really dislike the whole "Space Jockey is just an engineer flightsuit" thing. When I saw Prometheus in the theater; that whole scene where they take the head and then jam some electrodes into it or whatever they do... that just crushed me.
I liked that a lot, myself. I don't know what it is about me loving things most people hate. A good example? Hmm, ah yes, I enjoyed the game "Firefall" quite a lot!
You're just saying that because you don't like Scott's made up story. Otherwise you would've liked the origin story. I still feel the space jockey was a fosile, so I don't like the Prometheus story either
I don't believe you used your imagination. You just accepted it was something you didn't know, you never came up with any backstory for the jockey. Your acceptance of your own ignorance isn't something anyone should aspire to.
@@KamikazeCommie501 How do you know that I didn’t come up with any backstory for the jockey? What a ridiculous brain dead comment! I used my imagination and had awe and wonder of what it was and where it came from, what was its home world like? That’s called using your imagination.
I'm not quite half way through this yet but I wanted to say that, I always felt that the Jockey seen in the original Alien wasn't part of the char, but when it died, the suit eventually died and sort o f decomposed in ways that continued the lines of the suit and patterns on it into the chair. There are things in nature that organize themselves into patterns or shapes that seem like they're deliberate like how Bismuth while it's cooling forms hard right angles and such. Maybe the ridges of the suit, since it's bio-engineered just broke down and as it died, tried to reestablish itself into shapes that continued from it's old shape over the chair?
@@downtoearth6252 Giger didn't create the idea of biomachines for a start, he just did a better job depicting it and I believe coined the term. Second, I never said they weren't biomechanical. Emphasis on BIO, which means they are also biological. You can create machines out of living tissue after all. So nothing I said claimed otherwise aside that some things in the world, in nature etc. arrange themselves in not so normal shapes depending on the circumstance, like how Bismuth arranges itself in right angles and such. What's int he chair is still decomposed and fossilized, previously living tissue.
@@straker454 on a deeper level all life and things in the universe is made in arrangements and forms, Vibrations and frequencies create shapes and forms depending on the level of frequencies, And i understand what your saying and it could make sense, I can see what ur saying and would make sense
@@lm3416 Kinda, though Giger sort of suggested that the Space Jockey was either grown from or into the chair as part of its function. I was suggesting that the Jockey was separate but when it died it decomposed into the chair in a way that made it look like it was a part of the chair, with the suit sort of spreading out and continuing lines from itself that makes it look like it's part of the chair when originally it wasn't. Granted, there is something inherently horrific about a life form that is created for a single task to the point where it can't move from one spot and can only do that one thing. Imagine being grown to be only the driver of a car, you can never get out and can only sit there, in the car until someone decides they need to go somewhere. I think that's what Giger was suggesting, which is nightmarish enough. It means the Jockey could never have run away or defended itself from a facehugger attack. Just a piece of meat in a chair, meant to drive the ship, lol.
I like what our host does. He puts in a huge amount of work in researching his tpoics, then methodically brings what he finds and lets his viewrs from their opinions. He obviously has been in touch with the Alien lore perhaps longer than most of us. So, I enjoy most of his content and deliberations. Occasionally, we have a chance to disagree on certain elements or points, that pertain to the franchise & lore. The fate of the franchise is not an earth-shattering concern, but the trend that keeps appearing in the movies over the past two decades has been one that is less than stellar performance or outstanding in quality, or depth of vision. For that reason, I suspect that popular culture will increasingly accept, or more precisely, celebrate the mediocre and the shallow, attributing any critical comments as being out of touch or 'hating'. Lazy stories and superficial characters, contradictory plot points and meaningless storylines are now main features and accepted as the norm, by the majority. Regardless of the spend budgets of any of the recent releases, we have not yet witnessed anyhthing that comes anywhere close to the originals and take any of the Sci-Fi movies since the 1940s and 1950s and compare the level of work and creativity and that shows some interesting trends. So, in short, I just wonder what's happened to all the brilliant sci-fi authors since the end of the 1990s?
I much prefer the idea that Engineers are not the same species as the original Space Jockey. It never looked like a suit to me in 1979 Alien movie, but rather its fossilized remains. Mala'kak should be the original Space Jockey species, who created the Xenomorph as bio-weapons. Their mastery of bioengineering allows them to integrate themselves from their technology at will. Then Engineers would be a species who admired the Mala'kak and tried to emulate their technology (hence the resemblance of their suits with them). Then the Black liquid is their attempt to replicate the Xenomorph bioweapon, although its results are not as stable genetically and its ability to proliferate less potent. As for the mural, its design is vague enough to be a regular Xenomorph, which they view as the perfect lifeform. Thats why I think Yautja are better choice as rivals to Mala'kak, since their ideology is completely different, unlike the Engineers. They would view their genetic meddling as an affront to natural order and their use of other lifeforms instead of fighting themselves as cowardly. While Mala'kak would view Yautja as uncivilized barbarians, who butcher life for sport instead of improving it. As for the different variants, my headcanon is: Xenotitan comes from facehugger inseminating Mala'kak. Ultramorph comes from facehugger inseminating Engineer. Predalien comes from facehugger inseminating Yautja. Deacon is unique mutation from Black liquid effect on humans after mating, that only comes from this mutated Trilobite inseminating an Engineer. Neomorph & Protomorph are bioengineering attempts by android David to replicate the process of making actual Xenomorphs. Same as Newborn & Offspring are Weyland-Yutani's attempts to make Xenomorph-Human hybrids. Queen is produced from royal egg, which is made when a lone drone is ovomorphing his victim into one in the absence of a Queen. Praetorian come from drones consuming royal jelly, which a Queen produces once the colony reaches a certain size and she starts to meld into its environment and requires protection. I think thats the best way to blend the Dark Horse extended universe and the new prequel lore.
Oh snap, new joy! I wonder if any of the xenos survived smacking down the Engineers and went into stasis, only to reanimate after Russ got some face hugger love. Maybe it was these xenos who followed the family back to HH and started picking off the colonists and fetching them back to their hive? I’m sure Russ’ embryo also caused mayhem and brought one back, but it always seemed like a lot of people were disappeared very suddenly. Guess I’m not real sure of the timeline. How did Ann get Russ out of the egg hold and up all those levels? Did she find a platform lift?
My theory is that the space jockey is an ancient predecessor to the engineers whom were exponentially wanting to perfect their evolution in their iterations which would explain humans, that wiped out smaller engineers etc. As for the size, I’d imagine this evolution to be so sprawling and multifaceted that branches like great apes from Gigantopithecus to humans would be tightly and genetically interwoven. As for why the equipment used is similar despite their size and evolution I’d liken to to two things, 1 like the carriage having a seat beside it the car does too, an established design principle that fits our roads and won’t change as these roads won’t change in width and 2. The space jockeys were technologically superior to their descendants as their focus was on developing non biological technologies whilst the engineers as a sub group would focus dol on evolutionary biology, its like an Astro physicist using a mechanical watch identical in design as his grandfathers but made to fit his wrist and in that year.
Maybe the egg are not eggs but seeds, think about it eggs have a shelf life, seeds can be dormant for thousands of years, the blue mist that covers eggs found by Kane seemed to have a connection when broken, engineers have 2 different ship's juggernaut(military) and vast black ship(colony) are these engineers a colony,clones(sacrificial), or banished from the engineers real home world for using black goo on themselves.
Im glad these videos exist to archive the contenta of these forgotten alien stories. But let me just say, these plot lines are just some low quality schlock garbo.
I'm pretty sure that Ridley Scott has always been super bitter that James Cameron came along and made a movie everyone loved and memed and stuff. Basically everything cool in the franchise that people loved was NOT from Ridley Scott. That's why he's been so insistent on applying his own stupid ideas onto the franchise despite them making everything worse LOL
Ridley is very thick headed and impulsive. When a director runs on nerve, he'll run thin in some areas and make very odd choices. Like the overextended indulgent waking up scene, the magazine rolled up and shoved on Sigourney's mouth, the pervy angles on Sigourney's pubic area. The implied facehugger on the space jockey is different and way bigger than the huggers in the eggs, it's so obviously a concept drawing of a half organic being fused to a chair with a breathing tube and taken as is into the movie without thinking twice about how it makes any sense with the rest of the movie.
Or repurposing the part in the extended death scene of Bret, where the Xenomorph’s tail goes up the inside of his leg on its way to stab him through the back, to happen instead to Lambert, just to insinuate the Xenomorph had killed Lambert in a sexually suggestive manner offscreen, because she has a vagina.
Prometheus only confused matters because the space jockey body in the Alien movie was supposed to be ancient, perhaps thousands of years old or more. The scene where the engineer in the Prometheus movie that sat on the control chair of the alien ship with the jockey space suit forming around him about to take off when the Prometheus collided into it and forced it to crash was taking place only a few years before the events in Alien. Had that engineer managed to go back to the crashed alien ship after being attacked by that octopus creature in the crashed Prometheus med lab and sat back on the chair and died from a chest burster then it has conflicted with the Alien movie. Perhaps the director found this out and decided to make the planetoid that the Prometheus landed on not the one where the crew of the Nostromo landed and discovered another alien ship with an ancient space jockey inside. +
Didn’t Prometheus crew land on LV223? I always assumed there were two Juggernauts - and both intended to leave LV223 at the same time. One did, and that Space Jockey took off after waking up from being implanted, took off quickly and pointed his ship to the uninhabited LV426 before he was killed by the embryo; it crash landed there, to be found by Russ and Ann. The other Engineers were killed before they could take off from LV223, and this is the one Prometheus found. One Engineer survived and placed himself in stasis - perhaps after becoming infected as well. (This Engineer was also infected by Shaw’s ‘child’ near the end of the movie.). Therefore, both of these ships could have been in their respective locations, one on LV426 and LV223, a thousand or more years before both movies’ settings. I may be mistaken, though; I might be subconsciously influenced by Project Acheron’s animated short story where he has the rebel Engineers sabotaging the Space Jockey’s missions to eradicate life on various human-inhabited planets throughout the galaxy.
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
@@ronjon7942 No one accepts that. It's been ignored and the fans don't like the Engineers. There is a MASSIVE divide in the fan base. With the overwhelming majority not liking Scott's unnecessary changes to the lore. With Dark Descent being canon, many are glad that nonsense is not fully embraced.
Just wondering if the transmission that was originally detected by the company which rerouted the Nostromo finally stopped transmitting? The Nostromo crew never mentioned locating the source once inside the derelict and it was never mentioned in Aliens. Maybe Alien Romulus will address that?
This actually gets answered in the game "Alien: Isolation", if you haven't played it or watched someone else play it, I strongly recommend it. It's amazing.
I would of thought that when ever the derelict ship had landed or crash on to the planet, it had landed on top of a cavern. So as for the alien queen and hive was actually underneath the ship. Even in Alien, it was way too vast for the egg chamber to part of the ship. So be the outbreak might of happened on the derelict ship and then acid wise after a battle the acid hole opened up both spaces ship and cavern ... then the queen had a large chamber to nest in. 🖖
See, I thought about that too. But howzabout this hypothesis? In my musing. It would make far more sense if it wasn't crashed, but docked with a subterranean Jockey weapons cache/storage and the eggs broke out and the pilot was killed desperately trying to take off.
Thank gods. I love these cosmic horrors of a dead species. Engineers and jockeys are two seperate species. Jockeys are the masters, and the Engineers the slaves. The Annunaki (Jockeys) The Igiggi (Engineers)
it's quite clear from the big wall art in the comic, that the surviving space jockey with the hair, obese as you say, is the space jockey MOTHER and the normal jockeys are her male counterparts, maybe drones, maybe not.
My main issue with Alien after Romulus and The prequels is that it just feels like Resident Evil but with Aliens. They arent some off world parasite that's incredibly alien to us, they are bio-weapons produced by a man made android's experiments with something by big blue men. It's just kind of silly.
The issus that the franchise too many times has done "the company wants to use the aliens somehow for money" which just means more than half the franchise is just about the same company screwing up repeatedly the same way and never learning a single lesson
I always wondered why everyone was so pissed that the Jockey ended up being just an Engineer with a helmet on. Though we now know how much Engineers respected those that came before them. Was the suit and helmet created to look like Space Jockey creature of the comics? These creatures were ageless travelers of the galaxy, believed to be older than the Engineers. Im typing this before watching this video, so my questions might be answered.
i mean that and bro just took the idea and said this is it for sure in a comic thats not by ridley scott. its fan service they get upset at anything that doesn't line up with their storyline
What if it was both? What if the Xeno City both produced ovimorphs and was invaded. If it acts like a giant muticellualr organisms itself, perhaps some from of organism like a bacteria or viral infection caused a mutogenic effect on certian reproductive processes and rhw ovimorphs were created as a result in place of that they normally would. The resulting cenomorphic creatures then would be like cancerous cells or am evolved form of the viral component bonded to the host organism. By making these unstable mutants off of a larger, more complex beings reproductive processes by degenrating them, it also makes some sence why the Xenomorph has such exphasis on reproduction along woth adsorbant adaptivity to its "mate"/host.
@@Sora8112 Sorry you are a troll with seriously listed intellect. Don't speak for everyone as if you are rhe rule if you are so limited by cognative disabilty. You can reply if you want but this clear you are a troll looking for a fight so instead I'll jsut report everything you send as cyberbullying whole ignoring it. You'll be removed off here quick enough. Nice nice and profile BTW. Did an angsty tene pick it out for you? Clearly a proxy troll account too. Absoultly no effort in hiding it. Keep being you and hoping Mickey Mouse shows up to declare you some chosen one.
@@Sora8112just because your ADHD brain doesn't like to read long ideas, doesn't mean other people don't. I enjoyed reading this theory. Reading is your friend!
What if the space jockeys were the creators of the engineers? Could the engineers have designed their space suits to mimic the appearance of their creators?
29:00 The engineers was just a lose idea someone pulled out of their behind along with that biblical shite. The Jockeys was what was meant to be. 32:39 Well, I never saw THAT coming!?! Disney actually preventing a dumb decision?! Thanks for sharing this video.
I wish they'd gone with Geiger's original plan for Mala'keks. A benevolent alien race. But I also really like the engineers, just not the way they were used in the movies. The reason why Ridley struggles is because he is afraid to take risks and make decisions. If the engineers took Jesus and plopped him back, it makes the movie make sense. There are several references to Christianity, especially in deleted scenes that are intended to build up to the shocking revelation that we never got. The payoff never came and Prometheus fell flat because of it. It might have angered some religious nuts, but whatever, it's just a story. But it would have been more exciting.
I have a few times. I enjoy them for what they are . But I still like the first two alien films far better then the rest. I would of liked to see what Ridley Scott was originally going to do after Prometheus and see more about the engineers.
Even how much you complain about other complaining the prequels is very poorly made movies. You are just liking the cgi. There is no story at all it is empty.
Poor O'Bannon, creatively working for a corporate movie studio must be soul-crushing. But Giger/Scott's idea of not being able to tell where the Jockey starts and the sitting device ends is really good and adds this fascinating weird element to the creature. Also, Xenomorph being an artificial biological weapon always sounded really interesting to me. It just being some aggressive space bug is not as exciting, IMO. But I like O'Bannon's idea of Jockey's being peaceful space explorers and archeologists. I honestly don't like any of the other fiction about them. Thank you for the video.
Jockey is someone who rides something, typically horses. Seeing as the space jockey seemingly piloted (i.e rode) the spaceship, he is a space(ship) jockey
If they wanted to they could easily just say the engineering’s are a reverse engineering race where they just look for tech to remake & I honestly like the idea of the xeno city, deacon creating it would be interesting with the space jockey ship maybe being a next stage of xeno growth? Or infected certain specific to allow space travel?
It annoys me so much that everything after the first movie completely misunderstood the nature of the Space Jockey. It isn't a seperate organism, it is part of the ship, it IS the ship.
Lookswise, I like that in prometheus the trunk was part of the suit, tho the rest of it (mostly the legs and technology) I would have prefered if it looked like something from the game Scorn instead of the anthropocentric and lookist appearence of the engineers. The concept of aliens creating humans is cool to explore, but not in aliens, or else you take all the mystery and extraterrestial/biomechanical feeling away bc now its closer to us and simply biological (tho we can blame Cameron for that last part anyways, not that I dislike Aliens or the queen but he made them just complex bugs when they could be more).
How the hell Aliens gonna exist in Predator but Predators don't exist in Alien??? That makes no sense. That's like saying Thor exists in the Avengers films along with Iron Man but in Iron Man's films Thor doesn't exist. lol
It's just a monster mash. Basically, Frankenstein vs. Dracula. Not canonically accurate, or true to either Frankenstein or Dracula lore, Same with AvP. It's just entertainment period.
i mean alien vs predator is NOT a predator movie. aliens have never appeared in a predator movie. only in games and the avp series. so this analogy just does not make sense and shows your understanding of the universe. so to follow up there was never a way in hell aliens existed in a predator movie. just like charles said its a mashup movie. just like freddy vs jason. do like a two second google search next time you dont understand please.
@@Sora8112 Aliens do exist in the predator movies, apparently. Since there was a Xenomorph skull in the predator's ship in the Second movie. That implies they exist in the predator's movies universe, but the opposite cannot be said for the Alien Universe.
@@Sora8112 He's getting at the idea that the original horror of Alien is being confronted with something that exists beyond Earthly knowledge and experience. The horror of something we don't understand and are unprepared for existing in the depths of space. Explaining the origins of the Aliens and Space Jockeys takes away from that fascination and horror of the unexplained and unknowable being encountered.
I also don't consider the River of Pain canonical. It tries to retcon the Jockey ship into an engineer vessel. Completely invalidates the first movie. Terrible writing.
Wait, explain - I must be missing something fundamental. I thought all Juggernauts were Engineer vessels, and Jockey’s were Engineers. Oh wait, might you mean the Alien Space Jockey/Engineer wasn’t wearing a suit because his outwardly splayed ribs indicated we were looking at an un-uniformed, very tall/large alien? And in Prometheus (maybe, if I remember correctly) we’re looking at un-uniformed Engineers with a humanoid face, who become encapsulated into a piloting shell whose exterior looks like the Space Jockey’s body in Alien? I may have watched an animated story or comic about River of Pain, but not the audiobook yet. How does it portray the pilot, or the Engineer, or the Space Jockey - whichever one it is? Are you thinking the Space Jockey and the Engineer are two different beings or even species? Might the larger Space Jockey be the progenitor species to the Engineers? At any rate, River of Pain is a great title; I think it’s what Acheron translates to.
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
@@ronjon7942 Yeah, see, I don't accept that. Engineers and Jockeys aren't the same. Period. Scott is senile. Anyone with the slightest bit of artistic talent will tell you that both Engineer and Space Jockeys are not the same being. No one with taste even allows for that retcon. The evidence is overwhelming in this video that NO fan of Alien is happy with Prometheus. If anything signs seem to point to that universe being scrapped. Thank christ.
@@charlespancamo9771- I am with you guys. Absolutely disgusted by the direction the franchise took. The original story presented the True Space Jockey and Xenomorph lifeforms in a more Lovecraftian light. - Space Jockey- Enormous. A giant. Bizarre appearance. Organic being, joined with inorganic machine. Unknowable immense technology of an impossibly ancient age. - Xenomorph- Techno-organic lifeform. Bizarre, non-human appearance, yet unable to be classified in terms as "animal". Existing as eggs on a vast scale. Easily able to dispatch humans. - Their histories and purposes are impossible to figure out. Then, to have it all simplfied, based in the actions of more humanoid Engineers, a human-created android and a Xenomorph made by the evil android. Human, human, human, human... Why? They dumbed down the entire story.
Around 14:55, within the Outbreak comic, what is the meaning of the President removing his tooth to place a few drops of something on his tongue, and immediately expunges a chest burster? Why would the alien be so frightened of it? It’s not like it was going to impregnate him. Why did the chest burster attack and bite the elephant alien? Finally, what was the point of all of this, if Plan B was to nuke the Juggernaut anyway?
Funny how with Romulus no one is talking about the engineers like they aren’t important if anything the engineers and jockeys are just as important as the Xenos!
I loathe the idea that the ovamorphs could lure in hosts. In order to do so they would have to have been designed specifically with humans in mind. And if the ovamorphs had such a trait, the Engineers wouldn’t have been transporting them, the way they did. These comic book writers always try to complicate their stories too much.
I liked the idea that the space jockeys were wiped out by their own technology that the ships were giant androids and when they jockeys went to war the ships instead of birthing food pods birth the xenomorphs to fight for them even infecting the jockey with the feeding tube.....Technology gaining a consciousness and killing it's enslavers.....bladerunner much.
There are real animals that do not biologically age beyond maturity, like the jellyfish, Turritopsis dohrnii. They only die due to physical trauma or disease usually. Some other creatures like certain tortoises age at a very slow rate compared to humans. If the eggs are thousands of years old, they may be like that.
37:27, it looks like those leavers are just there for the host to squeeze or hold onto for the pain, kinda like how in some doctor and dental offices the chairs have these handles for u to squeeze if you're getting any pain from like needles, surgery etc. So my guess they were sacrificed or its some ritual
I will never accept Prometheus and Covenant as Canon. Ridley Scott ruined the franchise by ruinin' the mystery with answers to questions we didn't ask.
Saying that predators simply "don't exist" is a phenomenally stupid sentence I never in a million years thought I would ever hear someone say. They're in two of the damn movies. Have you not seen the movies? What the christ, dude?
I lnterviewed Andrew Gaska, a Franchise consultant for Fox, he said, along with other sources, Alien films are in one universe, Predator films in another, and AVP is its own third universe. So Predator is not in the Alien universe, and wasnt included in the official alien websites list of movies. I never said at all that predators dont exist...they don't exist in the alien universe.
The Engineers are supposed masters of bio-manipulation. Why are we arguing about how they look? Example: People who complain that Ben Skywalker (Kylo Ren) doesn't look like his parents...a biological concern in a family of IMMACULATE CONCEPTION. Like bro, what color hair do midiclorians have?
Yeah prometheous was f-up for the alien lore , ridley saw ancient aliens and decided it was a good idea to shove it all in the alien universe and lets not even talk about alien covenant jesus christ that shit was so bad all nonsence neomorph, backbursters ,the black liquid, david , the deacon thing the trilobite tentacle monster good its such a mess and lets not forget the freaking engineers !
35:15 I had to stop watching or listening because of those static effects. They hurt my eyes and ears. There are companies in the 1980s and 1990s that worked very hard to remove static noise with very expensive equipment. People would pay a premium to get the best visuals and sound. Because it degrades the viewing and listening pleasure to have static. 40 years later RUclipsrs found these distortions and thought they looked cool I guess.
Ridley Scott hasn’t made a good movie in over 30 years. Romulus was just a remake of the original alien….they couldn’t manage to conjure up even an ounce of imagination but I guess Hollywood dosent make them like they use to
It's a stretch to call what's on the wall further in the derelict ship 'organic' as the aliens clearly arent carbon based, more likely silicone based lifeforms
I certainly prefer the theory that the Jockey and Xenomorph pre-date the Engineers and Goo [with the goo being based upon whatever secretions, rather than ovum, the Facehuggers insert into their hosts.]
This theory has multiple benefits, and I'd love to see it displayed in Canon for these reasons:
- It reintroduces mystery as to the origins of the Xeno and space Jockey.
- It shows that the engineers designed their suits to replicate the look of the Jockey's though unable to recreate their size [perhaps they see them as gods or devils..... they could be the creators of the engineers(gods), the xeno's(devils), or a race that was in all out war against the xeno's and at one point saved the Engineer homeworld from them (gods)/infested their homeworld with xeno's which the engineers managed to fight out or had to abandon their world (devils)]
- It explains the xenomorph mural from Promethius.
Idk about that
Love this theory!!
I like the idea of 2 versions of the jockeys, theoretically one could have infected the other with a viral pathogen that caused sterility, realizing they couldn't procreate anymore they may have engineered a bioweapon and unleashed it on the other faction thus the infertile faction sent the xenos after a fertile faction. Eventually mutually assured destruction resulted in them uplifting a lesser species we would call the engineers who would create the black goo which could cure the infertile faction still in stasis but they didn't know where their gods dwelled and so they seeded their DNA across many worlds in the hopes of recreating their gods, which could explain the anger of the Prometheus engineer when he finally met his first humans after a couple of thousand years of slumber. Even though his crew and mission were to wipe out humanity.
Another idea I have is the engineers were created/uplifted by the true jockeys as before, but we're also of 2 minds. We do see in Prometheus the engineers in the holograms running from something, but I don't remember ever seeing that something and it halted the destruction of earth by the engineers. I doubt the engineers are scared of much but it's possible their own gods (the jockeys) were hunting down the faction of destroyer engineers. This multi faction idea seems more plausible to me honestly though. The jockeys seem the use advanced humanesque technology vs the engineers more biotech.
Perhaps at one point they were allied races, terraforming worlds and seeding them with life, then the 2 species disagreed on what kind of interference they should have with any intelligent species that formed and would go to war decimating both but with the interfering engineers gaining the upper hand by creating or using the black goo to cause genetic sterility in the jockeys causing them to die out. Their ships after all have similar designs in that horseshoe like shape.
Also the xenomorphs aliens could be the reason most advanced species eventually die off. Created long before either species achieved space flight as we see that the xenos can and do survive in the vacuum of space perhaps they have several "hive worlds" spread across the cosmos not just the galaxy. And interstellar species find them on occasion causing their civilizations to eventually collapse.
Growing up, I had several nightmares about the xenomorphs. But the very first Alien-inspired dream I remember featured the skeletal Space Jockey instead, lounging on a pile of bones in my Jr. High cafeteria.
woww spooky
I remember one of the Alien Omnibus volumes had a short story about a crew of Space Jockeys raiding a Xeno nest for eggs. They take heavy losses but escape without an outbreak. Then it revealed why they take eggs. They're a delicacy, they just collect them as a foodsource.
That was a different species
That was the dark horse presents short comic "alien: reapers". Not the same species of alien.
Ain't NO way I'd risk an outbreak just to get some good eggs.
Learning this makes me very thankful for Ridley changing the lore.
@@DT-tq8ku no, even that would've been better than the prequels
Damn, I had to cut the video off at Aliens Dark Descent as I just started it and didn't wanna be spoiled, but holy shit am I excited even more so! Great video so far and definitely going to finish it after beating the game.
Sorry about that! Its been out long enough I didn't put a spoiler tag on it.... Its amazing though, cant wait for you to see it!!!
I loved the mystery as it was. The Space Jockey was a long-deceaced alien creature from somewhere else.
In film Ridley Scott completely ruined the mythology, when he made Prometheus.
He actually managed to make me like Alien a little less. Impressive, Mr. Scott.
he made them less alien
Boohoo its canon now
in prometheus it's different sized too. that scene was so dumb my mind wiped it out I guess. other things don't match either, but ridley just wanted to jank it up - and/or changed it on the fly.
anyway the societal timeline between prometheus and alien doesn't fit. and if someone says nostromo looks janky because it's a cargo hauler, that's not the point, the point is that space crusing by 2100 would have been mundane privately fundable affair for rich people, that's one of the only kind of details of worldbuilding that you can actually snatch from alien. so any randos could've gone to look for the prometheus expedition. it's a reboot, basically, but ridley wanted to pretend in some interviews like it wasn't and like that he had the big grand plot to reveal (which never probably existed).
@@Daniel-ll2clyou're allowed to like stuff that sucks just as much as other people are allowed to point out the fact that it sucks.
I just ignore everything after Aliens and I;m at peace with that.
14:55, the space jockey here got mad when an android attempted to shake his hand ? Reminds me of when the Engineer got mad upon learning that david was an android created by humans and ripped his head off in prometheus
Yeah, seems like it. I’m not sure how the Space Jockey knew that crewman WAS a synth, though. I just don’t know if he would have reacted the same way if ALL those crew members were human, or if he really did hate androids and somehow detected either the crewman WAS a synth, or WASN’T a human.
Equally, I’m not sure if the Prometheus movie’s Engineer hated just synths, or the entire Prometheus crew since they were all human (other than David, obviously) - after all, his original mission was to wipe us out.
Via Lore channels, I heard that speaking or listening or interacting with species other than his own was exhausting - and could even shorten his life span by either thousands or hundreds of thousands of years. But the AVP Fandom website states the Engineers lifespan is 150 years.
I also heard the Engineer may have been shocked at our level of technology, specifically FTL space travel and our ability to create artificial life. He became angry, gruesomely attacking David and going berserk on the remaining crew.
What do you think? Other than I may be over thinking? :)
Oh, and I originally thought, or was told by some channel, the Engineers and Space Jockeys were the same species…although the episode(s) could have been from a LONG time ago. But in Outbreak, the Elephant alien is obviously not an Engineer.
So what is he? Is this the Progenitor species? Did they create the Engineer race?
The AVP Fandom website states the Engineer/Pilot/Space Jockey terms are for one and the same species, making the Outbreak alien’s species identity even more curious.
It may be that Outbreak was written well before Prometheus, and therefore well before it was ret conned that the Engineers and Space Jockeys were one and the same. Perhaps it, along with countless other stories and novels, was written with the best theories and info available.
If so, then I wish the movies were written so as to follow along with this, for lack of a better description, ‘Expanded Universe’ canon. It would be a shame to invalidate so much non-theater film content.
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
@@ronjon7942 I believe the engineer in prometheus didnt hate A.I and synths , i believe he killed him after realizing humans have become even more advanced to create things like David and it either scared him or made him realize we've grown to be even more of a threat or simply hate the idea that Weyland was pretending to be a god because of his creation. But then again, maybe the engineers do hate A.Is and synths, why would such an advanced race be doing all the dangerous labour themselves manually such as handling the black goo, space traveling, preparing and starting their ships ?
I believe it was the creator of the movie prometheus was trying to make the engineers and space jockeys the same species, i remember them referencing the original alien movie and how the space jockey intrigued a lot of the fans and everyone was asking questions about him but not who he was . But after seeing the ancient citizens in the latest alien game, dark descent, i do believe they're trying to keep them as 2 seperate species. If u asked me , i believe the Space jockeys created the engineers, why would the engineers have such a similar technology design in their ships , suits ? they seem to be heavily influenced by them unless the engineers at some point just inherited a ton of their technology.
Engineer in Prometheus attacked David because David basically implied that Weyland was looking for the secret to immortality and that humans now fancy themselves as Gods because they created sentient life (David specifically). The engineer was offended by the arrogance and reacted violently.
@@ronjon7942considering the surviving engineer would have started killing them either way since like you said the crews whole mission was to wipe us all out
Well done mate! This was the best allure on Space Jockeys/Engineers
My theory is that the engineers and space jockeys both come from the ancient titans seen in the alien RPG and engineers are like a perfectly designed subspecies of the space jockey that are obsessed with evolution, creation and DNA manipulation. whilst the space jockeys are much older and advanced civilisation that's dying out/ extinct that were preparing to war or help the engineers. Hence the manipulation of the original gold goo, maybe synthesized and modified for bio warfare, hence the drastic effects of the black goo.
So.....and it still bugs me....the jockey in the original Alien is huge...yet the ones in Prometheus are just very tall men and nowhere near the size of the one in the seat....
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
Yeah, I agree, even in the scripts and drafts, they were meant to be taller. The only good thing about it is, now that there is that obvious size difference, it gives more credence to the idea that they are 2 different things. The franchise is heading in that direction from what I can see.
This is one criticism that I cant accept. The engineers were shown to be masters of genetic engineering to the extent they could jumpstart life on a dead planet. The ability to change the size of individuals to a large degree would be trivial to them. While the size difference is jarring on screen, it is easily explained in universe, and not just because they are aliens. At the same time, the space jockey and the engineers could very well be different species of aliens, with the engineers simply adapting jockey technology for their own use. My overall point is the size difference between the two on screen representations of the space jockey and the engineer, which a lot of people use as “proof” they are different species is nonsense and easily explainable in universe logically. By that logic, the race seen in Dark Descent are a third species as they are approximately 10 feet taller than the space jockeys, so now we are up to 3 intelligent alien species who are in some weird waterfall of copy-catting each other ad infinitum.
@@LV_223 " The engineers were shown to be masters of genetic engineering to the extent they could jumpstart life on a dead planet. "
That was literally BILLIONS of years ago. It seems absurd that they'd still exist as anything cohesive and/or recognizable only two thousand years ago.
He was in a suit.
I feel like while i hate Prometheus I feel like it did leave room for the space jockeys and engineers to be 2 different species. David tells the girl in that movie "If the engineers created us, then what created the engineers." I feel this leaves plausible deniability that maybe the space jockeys created the engineers. the engineers could have very well worshiped the space jockeys and created their space suits based off their gods.
It was the other way around, Shaw was the one who said that to David
@@jaydenwright9203 to be fair I haven't seen the movie in a while lol I just remembered the line
I really dislike the whole "Space Jockey is just an engineer flightsuit" thing. When I saw Prometheus in the theater; that whole scene where they take the head and then jam some electrodes into it or whatever they do... that just crushed me.
The real space jocky is over 30 feet ,the prometheus the jocky/engineer is 7 or 8 feet.
That movie is aggressively stupid and made me physically uncomfortable in the theater as a result LOL
I'm so sick of Ridley's pretentious ass
Noomi rapaci is the only reason I saw that trainwreck.
I liked that a lot, myself.
I don't know what it is about me loving things most people hate. A good example? Hmm, ah yes, I enjoyed the game "Firefall" quite a lot!
@@TheZephyrsWindhas anyone ever told you that you are genuinely out to lunch?
Excellent job on this! Your best work!
The wonder of the Jockey is what blew minds, I don’t require answers or origin stories, let it be vague and my imagination will do the rest.
You're just saying that because you don't like Scott's made up story. Otherwise you would've liked the origin story. I still feel the space jockey was a fosile, so I don't like the Prometheus story either
then why you watching a lore video?
I don't believe you used your imagination. You just accepted it was something you didn't know, you never came up with any backstory for the jockey. Your acceptance of your own ignorance isn't something anyone should aspire to.
@@KamikazeCommie501 How do you know that I didn’t come up with any backstory for the jockey?
What a ridiculous brain dead comment!
I used my imagination and had awe and wonder of what it was and where it came from, what was its home world like?
That’s called using your imagination.
Ok I was gonna go sleep.... but sleep can wait till after this 👌
Yeah, you and me both.
I'm not quite half way through this yet but I wanted to say that, I always felt that the Jockey seen in the original Alien wasn't part of the char, but when it died, the suit eventually died and sort o f decomposed in ways that continued the lines of the suit and patterns on it into the chair. There are things in nature that organize themselves into patterns or shapes that seem like they're deliberate like how Bismuth while it's cooling forms hard right angles and such. Maybe the ridges of the suit, since it's bio-engineered just broke down and as it died, tried to reestablish itself into shapes that continued from it's old shape over the chair?
No, they were biomechanics, a concept created by hr giger
@@downtoearth6252 Giger didn't create the idea of biomachines for a start, he just did a better job depicting it and I believe coined the term. Second, I never said they weren't biomechanical. Emphasis on BIO, which means they are also biological. You can create machines out of living tissue after all. So nothing I said claimed otherwise aside that some things in the world, in nature etc. arrange themselves in not so normal shapes depending on the circumstance, like how Bismuth arranges itself in right angles and such. What's int he chair is still decomposed and fossilized, previously living tissue.
@@straker454 on a deeper level all life and things in the universe is made in arrangements and forms, Vibrations and frequencies create shapes and forms depending on the level of frequencies, And i understand what your saying and it could make sense, I can see what ur saying and would make sense
30:08 it confirms what you wrote
@@lm3416 Kinda, though Giger sort of suggested that the Space Jockey was either grown from or into the chair as part of its function. I was suggesting that the Jockey was separate but when it died it decomposed into the chair in a way that made it look like it was a part of the chair, with the suit sort of spreading out and continuing lines from itself that makes it look like it's part of the chair when originally it wasn't. Granted, there is something inherently horrific about a life form that is created for a single task to the point where it can't move from one spot and can only do that one thing. Imagine being grown to be only the driver of a car, you can never get out and can only sit there, in the car until someone decides they need to go somewhere. I think that's what Giger was suggesting, which is nightmarish enough. It means the Jockey could never have run away or defended itself from a facehugger attack. Just a piece of meat in a chair, meant to drive the ship, lol.
I like what our host does. He puts in a huge amount of work in researching his tpoics, then methodically brings what he finds and lets his viewrs from their opinions. He obviously has been in touch with the Alien lore perhaps longer than most of us. So, I enjoy most of his content and deliberations. Occasionally, we have a chance to disagree on certain elements or points, that pertain to the franchise & lore. The fate of the franchise is not an earth-shattering concern, but the trend that keeps appearing in the movies over the past two decades has been one that is less than stellar performance or outstanding in quality, or depth of vision. For that reason, I suspect that popular culture will increasingly accept, or more precisely, celebrate the mediocre and the shallow, attributing any critical comments as being out of touch or 'hating'. Lazy stories and superficial characters, contradictory plot points and meaningless storylines are now main features and accepted as the norm, by the majority. Regardless of the spend budgets of any of the recent releases, we have not yet witnessed anyhthing that comes anywhere close to the originals and take any of the Sci-Fi movies since the 1940s and 1950s and compare the level of work and creativity and that shows some interesting trends. So, in short, I just wonder what's happened to all the brilliant sci-fi authors since the end of the 1990s?
Love this man! Subscribed 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
Thanks for the sub!
Like the Jockey weapon he uses on the Alien home world. Pretty smart heating up the Alien body to fatal levels. Avoid a lot of acid spill.
I find the engineer narative fascinating, i hope we get more juicy lore
lots of work went into this
I much prefer the idea that Engineers are not the same species as the original Space Jockey. It never looked like a suit to me in 1979 Alien movie, but rather its fossilized remains.
Mala'kak should be the original Space Jockey species, who created the Xenomorph as bio-weapons. Their mastery of bioengineering allows them to integrate themselves from their technology at will.
Then Engineers would be a species who admired the Mala'kak and tried to emulate their technology (hence the resemblance of their suits with them). Then the Black liquid is their attempt to replicate the Xenomorph bioweapon, although its results are not as stable genetically and its ability to proliferate less potent. As for the mural, its design is vague enough to be a regular Xenomorph, which they view as the perfect lifeform.
Thats why I think Yautja are better choice as rivals to Mala'kak, since their ideology is completely different, unlike the Engineers. They would view their genetic meddling as an affront to natural order and their use of other lifeforms instead of fighting themselves as cowardly. While Mala'kak would view Yautja as uncivilized barbarians, who butcher life for sport instead of improving it.
As for the different variants, my headcanon is:
Xenotitan comes from facehugger inseminating Mala'kak.
Ultramorph comes from facehugger inseminating Engineer.
Predalien comes from facehugger inseminating Yautja.
Deacon is unique mutation from Black liquid effect on humans after mating, that only comes from this mutated Trilobite inseminating an Engineer.
Neomorph & Protomorph are bioengineering attempts by android David to replicate the process of making actual Xenomorphs. Same as Newborn & Offspring are Weyland-Yutani's attempts to make Xenomorph-Human hybrids.
Queen is produced from royal egg, which is made when a lone drone is ovomorphing his victim into one in the absence of a Queen.
Praetorian come from drones consuming royal jelly, which a Queen produces once the colony reaches a certain size and she starts to meld into its environment and requires protection.
I think thats the best way to blend the Dark Horse extended universe and the new prequel lore.
Oh snap, new joy!
I wonder if any of the xenos survived smacking down the Engineers and went into stasis, only to reanimate after Russ got some face hugger love. Maybe it was these xenos who followed the family back to HH and started picking off the colonists and fetching them back to their hive? I’m sure Russ’ embryo also caused mayhem and brought one back, but it always seemed like a lot of people were disappeared very suddenly. Guess I’m not real sure of the timeline.
How did Ann get Russ out of the egg hold and up all those levels? Did she find a platform lift?
My theory is that the space jockey is an ancient predecessor to the engineers whom were exponentially wanting to perfect their evolution in their iterations which would explain humans, that wiped out smaller engineers etc. As for the size, I’d imagine this evolution to be so sprawling and multifaceted that branches like great apes from Gigantopithecus to humans would be tightly and genetically interwoven. As for why the equipment used is similar despite their size and evolution I’d liken to to two things, 1 like the carriage having a seat beside it the car does too, an established design principle that fits our roads and won’t change as these roads won’t change in width and 2. The space jockeys were technologically superior to their descendants as their focus was on developing non biological technologies whilst the engineers as a sub group would focus dol on evolutionary biology, its like an Astro physicist using a mechanical watch identical in design as his grandfathers but made to fit his wrist and in that year.
They did Space Jokey dirty with he’s looks
Btw, thank you so much for pronouncing the word "nuclear" correctly. Seems like half of RUclips insists on saying it like George W Bush.
Oh nice! This is a rad topic
Maybe the egg are not eggs but seeds, think about it eggs have a shelf life, seeds can be dormant for thousands of years, the blue mist that covers eggs found by Kane seemed to have a connection when broken, engineers have 2 different ship's juggernaut(military) and vast black ship(colony) are these engineers a colony,clones(sacrificial), or banished from the engineers real home world for using black goo on themselves.
Im glad these videos exist to archive the contenta of these forgotten alien stories. But let me just say, these plot lines are just some low quality schlock garbo.
lol but still better than Prometheus
@@KingofCrushernot really. Pretty comparable tbh. The whole point was the mystery, no explanation is needed.
Great video man, got my Sub👍
Thanks!
I'm pretty sure that Ridley Scott has always been super bitter that James Cameron came along and made a movie everyone loved and memed and stuff. Basically everything cool in the franchise that people loved was NOT from Ridley Scott. That's why he's been so insistent on applying his own stupid ideas onto the franchise despite them making everything worse LOL
Ridley is very thick headed and impulsive. When a director runs on nerve, he'll run thin in some areas and make very odd choices. Like the overextended indulgent waking up scene, the magazine rolled up and shoved on Sigourney's mouth, the pervy angles on Sigourney's pubic area.
The implied facehugger on the space jockey is different and way bigger than the huggers in the eggs, it's so obviously a concept drawing of a half organic being fused to a chair with a breathing tube and taken as is into the movie without thinking twice about how it makes any sense with the rest of the movie.
Or repurposing the part in the extended death scene of Bret, where the Xenomorph’s tail goes up the inside of his leg on its way to stab him through the back, to happen instead to Lambert, just to insinuate the Xenomorph had killed Lambert in a sexually suggestive manner offscreen, because she has a vagina.
Prometheus only confused matters because the space jockey body in the Alien movie was supposed to be ancient, perhaps thousands of years old or more. The scene where the engineer in the Prometheus movie that sat on the control chair of the alien ship with the jockey space suit forming around him about to take off when the Prometheus collided into it and forced it to crash was taking place only a few years before the events in Alien. Had that engineer managed to go back to the crashed alien ship after being attacked by that octopus creature in the crashed Prometheus med lab and sat back on the chair and died from a chest burster then it has conflicted with the Alien movie. Perhaps the director found this out and decided to make the planetoid that the Prometheus landed on not the one where the crew of the Nostromo landed and discovered another alien ship with an ancient space jockey inside.
+
Ignore Prometheus and Covenant. It never happened. Scott went senile.
Didn’t Prometheus crew land on LV223? I always assumed there were two Juggernauts - and both intended to leave LV223 at the same time.
One did, and that Space Jockey took off after waking up from being implanted, took off quickly and pointed his ship to the uninhabited LV426 before he was killed by the embryo; it crash landed there, to be found by Russ and Ann.
The other Engineers were killed before they could take off from LV223, and this is the one Prometheus found. One Engineer survived and placed himself in stasis - perhaps after becoming infected as well. (This Engineer was also infected by Shaw’s ‘child’ near the end of the movie.).
Therefore, both of these ships could have been in their respective locations, one on LV426 and LV223, a thousand or more years before both movies’ settings.
I may be mistaken, though; I might be subconsciously influenced by Project Acheron’s animated short story where he has the rebel Engineers sabotaging the Space Jockey’s missions to eradicate life on various human-inhabited planets throughout the galaxy.
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
Its not the same ship. The one in alien crashed on lv-426, the one in prometheus crashed on lv-223.
@@ronjon7942
No one accepts that. It's been ignored and the fans don't like the Engineers. There is a MASSIVE divide in the fan base. With the overwhelming majority not liking Scott's unnecessary changes to the lore. With Dark Descent being canon, many are glad that nonsense is not fully embraced.
Just wondering if the transmission that was originally detected by the company which rerouted the Nostromo finally stopped transmitting?
The Nostromo crew never mentioned locating the source once inside the derelict and it was never mentioned in Aliens.
Maybe Alien Romulus will address that?
This actually gets answered in the game "Alien: Isolation", if you haven't played it or watched someone else play it, I strongly recommend it. It's amazing.
What a ride. Good one sir!
I would of thought that when ever the derelict ship had landed or crash on to the planet, it had landed on top of a cavern. So as for the alien queen and hive was actually underneath the ship. Even in Alien, it was way too vast for the egg chamber to part of the ship. So be the outbreak might of happened on the derelict ship and then acid wise after a battle the acid hole opened up both spaces ship and cavern ... then the queen had a large chamber to nest in. 🖖
See, I thought about that too. But howzabout this hypothesis? In my musing. It would make far more sense if it wasn't crashed, but docked with a subterranean Jockey weapons cache/storage and the eggs broke out and the pilot was killed desperately trying to take off.
@@sonofeyeabovealleffoff5462 yes, I like your hypothesis, that would be better world than most ... 🖖
Thank gods. I love these cosmic horrors of a dead species. Engineers and jockeys are two seperate species. Jockeys are the masters, and the Engineers the slaves.
The Annunaki (Jockeys)
The Igiggi (Engineers)
it's quite clear from the big wall art in the comic, that the surviving space jockey with the hair, obese as you say, is the space jockey MOTHER and the normal jockeys are her male counterparts, maybe drones, maybe not.
I guess by your logic, lions are female and lionesses are male.
My main issue with Alien after Romulus and The prequels is that it just feels like Resident Evil but with Aliens. They arent some off world parasite that's incredibly alien to us, they are bio-weapons produced by a man made android's experiments with something by big blue men. It's just kind of silly.
The movies imply that xenos existed before the android
bio weapons perfected by a man made android* that should help this comment a bit.
@@cfG21 They imply something akin to a xeno existed but not the xenos we know now. The xenomorph is the perfected form.
@@LuigiaTV ahh ok. That makes sense
The issus that the franchise too many times has done "the company wants to use the aliens somehow for money" which just means more than half the franchise is just about the same company screwing up repeatedly the same way and never learning a single lesson
Maybe the real space Jockey was the friends we made along the way
I always wondered why everyone was so pissed that the Jockey ended up being just an Engineer with a helmet on. Though we now know how much Engineers respected those that came before them. Was the suit and helmet created to look like Space Jockey creature of the comics? These creatures were ageless travelers of the galaxy, believed to be older than the Engineers.
Im typing this before watching this video, so my questions might be answered.
i mean that and bro just took the idea and said this is it for sure in a comic thats not by ridley scott. its fan service they get upset at anything that doesn't line up with their storyline
The jockeys should have never been blue man group
What if it was both? What if the Xeno City both produced ovimorphs and was invaded. If it acts like a giant muticellualr organisms itself, perhaps some from of organism like a bacteria or viral infection caused a mutogenic effect on certian reproductive processes and rhw ovimorphs were created as a result in place of that they normally would. The resulting cenomorphic creatures then would be like cancerous cells or am evolved form of the viral component bonded to the host organism. By making these unstable mutants off of a larger, more complex beings reproductive processes by degenrating them, it also makes some sence why the Xenomorph has such exphasis on reproduction along woth adsorbant adaptivity to its "mate"/host.
too long didnt read and no one will.
@@Sora8112 Sorry you are a troll with seriously listed intellect. Don't speak for everyone as if you are rhe rule if you are so limited by cognative disabilty. You can reply if you want but this clear you are a troll looking for a fight so instead I'll jsut report everything you send as cyberbullying whole ignoring it. You'll be removed off here quick enough. Nice nice and profile BTW. Did an angsty tene pick it out for you? Clearly a proxy troll account too. Absoultly no effort in hiding it. Keep being you and hoping Mickey Mouse shows up to declare you some chosen one.
@@Sora8112just because your ADHD brain doesn't like to read long ideas, doesn't mean other people don't. I enjoyed reading this theory. Reading is your friend!
Well I just died and went to heaven.
No, you're in the RUclips comments... Aka hell.
@@TheZephyrsWind I was in heaven for a few minutes, four months ago then.
If you're reading this, I hate you for ruining this Ridley
What if the space jockeys were the creators of the engineers? Could the engineers have designed their space suits to mimic the appearance of their creators?
9:28 If Squidward became a space marine from Warhammer 40,000
29:00 The engineers was just a lose idea someone pulled out of their behind along with that biblical shite. The Jockeys was what was meant to be.
32:39 Well, I never saw THAT coming!?! Disney actually preventing a dumb decision?!
Thanks for sharing this video.
11:05 Just a casual reminder that this guy didn't kill himself.
I wish they'd gone with Geiger's original plan for Mala'keks. A benevolent alien race. But I also really like the engineers, just not the way they were used in the movies. The reason why Ridley struggles is because he is afraid to take risks and make decisions. If the engineers took Jesus and plopped him back, it makes the movie make sense. There are several references to Christianity, especially in deleted scenes that are intended to build up to the shocking revelation that we never got. The payoff never came and Prometheus fell flat because of it. It might have angered some religious nuts, but whatever, it's just a story. But it would have been more exciting.
For everyone *still* complaining about Prometheus and Covenant, please rewatch Alien Vs Predator and Alien Vs Predator: Requiem
I have a few times. I enjoy them for what they are . But I still like the first two alien films far better then the rest. I would of liked to see what Ridley Scott was originally going to do after Prometheus and see more about the engineers.
You realize that Ridley used parts of AVP for Prometheus and Alien Covenant, right?
Even how much you complain about other complaining the prequels is very poorly made movies. You are just liking the cgi. There is no story at all it is empty.
@@funnylumpy i cant even read this bro not gonna lie. no idea what you're trying to say.
I actively enjoy avp more then the prequils
when Dallas came in lambert.?¿?¿?¿?
Dallas, Kane and Lambert... I had to double check when I first heard too 😂
Poor O'Bannon, creatively working for a corporate movie studio must be soul-crushing.
But Giger/Scott's idea of not being able to tell where the Jockey starts and the sitting device ends is really good and adds this fascinating weird element to the creature. Also, Xenomorph being an artificial biological weapon always sounded really interesting to me. It just being some aggressive space bug is not as exciting, IMO.
But I like O'Bannon's idea of Jockey's being peaceful space explorers and archeologists. I honestly don't like any of the other fiction about them.
Thank you for the video.
Who came up with the term “space jockey” and why?
Jockey is someone who rides something, typically horses.
Seeing as the space jockey seemingly piloted (i.e rode) the spaceship, he is a space(ship) jockey
If they wanted to they could easily just say the engineering’s are a reverse engineering race where they just look for tech to remake & I honestly like the idea of the xeno city, deacon creating it would be interesting with the space jockey ship maybe being a next stage of xeno growth? Or infected certain specific to allow space travel?
Closer to Drucathi!
Looks like the elephant nose guys from the Orville
It annoys me so much that everything after the first movie completely misunderstood the nature of the Space Jockey. It isn't a seperate organism, it is part of the ship, it IS the ship.
It was meant to be a part of the ship? Or more like integrated into the ship like Pilot in Farscape?
@@TheZephyrsWind Yeah, H.R Giger said that the pilot was grown from or into his seat. They say the same thing in the movie when they see it
Lookswise, I like that in prometheus the trunk was part of the suit, tho the rest of it (mostly the legs and technology) I would have prefered if it looked like something from the game Scorn instead of the anthropocentric and lookist appearence of the engineers. The concept of aliens creating humans is cool to explore, but not in aliens, or else you take all the mystery and extraterrestial/biomechanical feeling away bc now its closer to us and simply biological (tho we can blame Cameron for that last part anyways, not that I dislike Aliens or the queen but he made them just complex bugs when they could be more).
How the hell Aliens gonna exist in Predator but Predators don't exist in Alien??? That makes no sense. That's like saying Thor exists in the Avengers films along with Iron Man but in Iron Man's films Thor doesn't exist. lol
I agree. That's utterly idiotic.
Aliens already been exist , there was world xeno planet and had experiments with black slime.
It's just a monster mash. Basically, Frankenstein vs. Dracula. Not canonically accurate, or true to either Frankenstein or Dracula lore, Same with AvP. It's just entertainment period.
i mean alien vs predator is NOT a predator movie. aliens have never appeared in a predator movie. only in games and the avp series. so this analogy just does not make sense and shows your understanding of the universe. so to follow up there was never a way in hell aliens existed in a predator movie. just like charles said its a mashup movie. just like freddy vs jason. do like a two second google search next time you dont understand please.
@@Sora8112 Aliens do exist in the predator movies, apparently. Since there was a Xenomorph skull in the predator's ship in the Second movie. That implies they exist in the predator's movies universe, but the opposite cannot be said for the Alien Universe.
finding out anything about the space jockey would be anything but "ALIEN"
explain?
@@Sora8112 He's getting at the idea that the original horror of Alien is being confronted with something that exists beyond Earthly knowledge and experience. The horror of something we don't understand and are unprepared for existing in the depths of space. Explaining the origins of the Aliens and Space Jockeys takes away from that fascination and horror of the unexplained and unknowable being encountered.
I also don't consider the River of Pain canonical. It tries to retcon the Jockey ship into an engineer vessel. Completely invalidates the first movie. Terrible writing.
Wait, explain - I must be missing something fundamental. I thought all Juggernauts were Engineer vessels, and Jockey’s were Engineers.
Oh wait, might you mean the Alien Space Jockey/Engineer wasn’t wearing a suit because his outwardly splayed ribs indicated we were looking at an un-uniformed, very tall/large alien?
And in Prometheus (maybe, if I remember correctly) we’re looking at un-uniformed Engineers with a humanoid face, who become encapsulated into a piloting shell whose exterior looks like the Space Jockey’s body in Alien?
I may have watched an animated story or comic about River of Pain, but not the audiobook yet. How does it portray the pilot, or the Engineer, or the Space Jockey - whichever one it is?
Are you thinking the Space Jockey and the Engineer are two different beings or even species?
Might the larger Space Jockey be the progenitor species to the Engineers?
At any rate, River of Pain is a great title; I think it’s what Acheron translates to.
ScreenRant website has an article called “alien-space-jockeys-explained-engineer-origin-alien-connection” that indicates that after the Prometheus movie, it was retconned that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are the same species.
@@ronjon7942 Yeah, see, I don't accept that. Engineers and Jockeys aren't the same. Period. Scott is senile. Anyone with the slightest bit of artistic talent will tell you that both Engineer and Space Jockeys are not the same being. No one with taste even allows for that retcon. The evidence is overwhelming in this video that NO fan of Alien is happy with Prometheus. If anything signs seem to point to that universe being scrapped. Thank christ.
@@sonofeyeabovealleffoff5462 I'm one step ahead of you: I don't accept engineers or davids xeno party as canon at all.
@@charlespancamo9771- I am with you guys. Absolutely disgusted by the direction the franchise took.
The original story presented the True Space Jockey and Xenomorph lifeforms in a more Lovecraftian light.
- Space Jockey- Enormous. A giant. Bizarre appearance. Organic being, joined with inorganic machine. Unknowable immense technology of an impossibly ancient age.
- Xenomorph- Techno-organic lifeform. Bizarre, non-human appearance, yet unable to be classified in terms as "animal".
Existing as eggs on a vast scale.
Easily able to dispatch humans.
- Their histories and purposes are impossible to figure out.
Then, to have it all simplfied, based in the actions of more humanoid Engineers, a human-created android and a Xenomorph made by the evil android.
Human, human, human, human...
Why? They dumbed down the entire story.
Around 14:55, within the Outbreak comic, what is the meaning of the President removing his tooth to place a few drops of something on his tongue, and immediately expunges a chest burster?
Why would the alien be so frightened of it? It’s not like it was going to impregnate him.
Why did the chest burster attack and bite the elephant alien?
Finally, what was the point of all of this, if Plan B was to nuke the Juggernaut anyway?
I don't like that they confuse social insect workers with drones. The Space Jockey in the first movie is much larger than the engineers.
謎めいた魅力。永遠に謎のままにしておく方が良い。
Funny how with Romulus no one is talking about the engineers like they aren’t important if anything the engineers and jockeys are just as important as the Xenos!
From the leaked spoilers, it appears that there will be a rather direct tie from Romulus to the Prequel films and the Engineers.
I loathe the idea that the ovamorphs could lure in hosts. In order to do so they would have to have been designed specifically with humans in mind. And if the ovamorphs had such a trait, the Engineers wouldn’t have been transporting them, the way they did.
These comic book writers always try to complicate their stories too much.
I liked the idea that the space jockeys were wiped out by their own technology that the ships were giant androids and when they jockeys went to war the ships instead of birthing food pods birth the xenomorphs to fight for them even infecting the jockey with the feeding tube.....Technology gaining a consciousness and killing it's enslavers.....bladerunner much.
It's disappointing that the dark horse comics were so dismissed as to allow them to create a lore which ridley scott was not appreciate of.
I prefer Ridley Scotts version where the aliens were a desperate attempt at reproduction of a sterile race, where the comics were all about domination
Dark horse comics were all about threat, conservatism and pro-military. It was the 90s comics i suppose.
By far the coolest one is the Destroying Angels lore. Rest is a bit meh
feelings human can't understand...
sure. why not.
I'll take space jockey over Engineer any time
If the space jockey was dead for thousands of years how are the eggs in the silo still fresh. 🤣
There are real animals that do not biologically age beyond maturity, like the jellyfish, Turritopsis dohrnii. They only die due to physical trauma or disease usually. Some other creatures like certain tortoises age at a very slow rate compared to humans. If the eggs are thousands of years old, they may be like that.
37:27, it looks like those leavers are just there for the host to squeeze or hold onto for the pain, kinda like how in some doctor and dental offices the chairs have these handles for u to squeeze if you're getting any pain from like needles, surgery etc. So my guess they were sacrificed or its some ritual
Alien was a little before my time and the first time I saw a space jockey was on the Orville...😂
I will never accept Prometheus and Covenant as Canon. Ridley Scott ruined the franchise by ruinin' the mystery with answers to questions we didn't ask.
* answers to questions YOU didn't ask.
It is not 'would of thought'. It is would have thought.
Thank you
Saying that predators simply "don't exist" is a phenomenally stupid sentence I never in a million years thought I would ever hear someone say. They're in two of the damn movies. Have you not seen the movies? What the christ, dude?
I lnterviewed Andrew Gaska, a Franchise consultant for Fox, he said, along with other sources, Alien films are in one universe, Predator films in another, and AVP is its own third universe. So Predator is not in the Alien universe, and wasnt included in the official alien websites list of movies. I never said at all that predators dont exist...they don't exist in the alien universe.
Holy BTFO! 😂😂😂
You mean the two what if spin off films.
Wait Disney owns the Alien franchise now? (I forgot that Disney just owns everything) Does that mean Disney Xenomorph Princess is possible now???
The Engineers are supposed masters of bio-manipulation. Why are we arguing about how they look?
Example: People who complain that Ben Skywalker (Kylo Ren) doesn't look like his parents...a biological concern in a family of IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.
Like bro, what color hair do midiclorians have?
The book jockeys were cooler and more interesting than the Prometheus jockeys.
Yeah prometheous was f-up for the alien lore , ridley saw ancient aliens and decided it was a good idea to shove it all in the alien universe and lets not even talk about alien covenant jesus christ that shit was so bad all nonsence neomorph, backbursters ,the black liquid, david , the deacon thing the trilobite tentacle monster good its such a mess and lets not forget the freaking engineers !
Oh, did you see Alien Vs Predator? That movie rocks and same for the amazing sequel
35:15 I had to stop watching or listening because of those static effects. They hurt my eyes and ears. There are companies in the 1980s and 1990s that worked very hard to remove static noise with very expensive equipment. People would pay a premium to get the best visuals and sound. Because it degrades the viewing and listening pleasure to have static. 40 years later RUclipsrs found these distortions and thought they looked cool I guess.
Ridley Scott hasn’t made a good movie in over 30 years. Romulus was just a remake of the original alien….they couldn’t manage to conjure up even an ounce of imagination but I guess Hollywood dosent make them like they use to
Gladiator or Martian? 🤣🤣
Atilax LIKE!!
Atilax LIKE!!
Im glad ive never seen the scenes with newts parents. I truly hate stupid characters who are only dumb for the plots to move
It's a stretch to call what's on the wall further in the derelict ship 'organic' as the aliens clearly arent carbon based, more likely silicone based lifeforms