Responding to Peterson's Message to Christians w/ Trent Horn
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Full Episode: • Trent's Real Name is T...
Jordan Peterson posted a video that appealed to the church to reach out to young men. Does the Catholic church need to appeal to young men more? Is Islam a comparatively more manly religion?
Peterson Clips in Question: • Article: Message to th...
Trent's Podcast: / thecounseloftrent
Trent's New Book: amzn.to/3xjX47V
---
📚 My new book!: amzn.to/3FXQDuj
🔴 LINKS
Join Us on Locals (before we get banned on YT): mattfradd.loca...
Website: pintswithaquin...
Merch: teespring.com/stores/matt-fradd
FREE 21 Day Detox From Porn Course: www.strive21.com/
🔴 SOCIAL
Facebook: / mattfradd
Twitter: / mattfradd
Instagram: / mattfradd
Rumble: rumble.com/c/p...
We get a small kick back from affiliate links. 
Развлечения
"Appeal to Masculinity" is a notoriously difficult thing to pin down. Too often it morphs into the dude-bro/meat head youth pastor, or a men's Bible study at a sports bar.. or whatever other cringey concept male-based stereotyping can produce.
Peterson himself is successful in large part because he is so very classical in his masculinity. He talks about responsibility, from the vantage of a compassionate therapist, he critiques elitist educational establishment while simultaneously manifesting the best of higher learning respectability, he yells at his audience, but cries listening to other people's stories. He presents a more complex and ancient view of manhood -- the warrior poet, philosopher king, etc.
i agree with the first part. respectfully disagree on the last part. Peterson on manhood is a caricature of a naive boy's ideal of a man. Truth be told, the hardest thing in life is being a Christian (enough said), but the toughest thing about life is being a woman. Spartans and Vikings were well aware of this, and they are considered the grittiest societies on human history. But the best examples of manhood are Christ and all the male saints. And none of them drum their chest howling manhood. Because that's irrelevant. If the church is full of women and is considered feminine, as the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, I say Amen.
@@anthonyw2931 Yawn.
@@anthonyw2931 I don't disagree that Christ challenges our presuppositions of masculinity (but my point was, so does Peterson).. It is a mischaracterization of Jesus that we was gentle and 'effeminate' and holding lambs all day long, He is also Yahweh from the OT, and demonstrated His masculine zeal at several points (most notably His demonstration in the Temple). The Church has always recognized the full range and complexity of what it means to be a man (medieval knighthood, a perfect synthesis of this abstract ideal) as She indeed recognizes the complexity of what it means to be a woman. People are multifaceted and the same is true of gender.
There is alot to learn from Muslims about this. I'll drop a link to the most beautiful love song I've ever heard.
We have not had men for a long time. The whole trans thing is just a symptom
@@j.cgallagher7092 what an incredibly disrespectful response. I hope you're not a Catholic viewer commenting like that. You can respectfully disagree with someone, but after they write a paragraph laying out their views, giving a one word response, especially saying "Yawn", is simply just pathetic. I don't entirely agree with that guy's reply, but I also don't agree with Peterson on a number of things as well. For the most part I like Peterson, but he doesn't always have the greatest takes regardless of how well educated he is.
I am a Trent Horn fan, but I don’t think he gets it on this issue
Yes. Trent sounds very confused here
Maybe doesn’t know what masculinity is.
I think if we at least give men the option of being more serious about the Faith, they will follow it because it’s difficult.
does this option not already exist?
That's the problem with modern churches. They present men leading and guiding as "optional" when the Scripture is clear that they should be presented as REQUIREMENTs. Men respond to requirements better than optional.
@@thomasc9036 So true! I have 5 boys, they respond much better when what is required is laid/written out plainly, than when they are just asked or just told to do something! 💡 Make sure the 10 commandments are posted as well as "Top 10" lists of prayers and activities for "Devout Men" in the Catholic Church. LoL...it just might work!
@@annadaniel2328Sadly, we have too many leaders like Trent Horn. The 21st century postmodern leaders. Just about everything is "optional". I don't remember Jesus asking "would you like to follow me?" or "would you like to do the will of my Father?" I do remember " “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!”
@@MidwestPyro55 Unless it's the Priesthood or the religious life, not really.
In my parish, it's mostly wives and girlfriends who drag their husbands/boyfriends to Mass on Sundays. You can tell by looking at them that they're PIMO (Physically In, Mentally Out), and counting the seconds until we're dismissed and they can go home.
They're neither challenged nor interested.
I'm a single man in my mid-20s, and my priest is always asking me about my thoughts on the Priesthood and potentially going to seminary.
And to be perfectly honest, seeing how dead behind the eyes many of the married men in my parish are, the Seminary or the Monastery is looking like a much more attractive, challenging, and fulfilling faith journey than Matrimony.
I do have to say, with utmost respect for you both. Matt, Trent, you’re both completely off base in this conversation. For all the talking you both did, neither one of you provided anything insightful on the topic, and instead skipped around the truth. I’m subscribed to you both, and rather enjoy most of your work, but would it be so hard to say the following. The the lack of masculinity is a result of the effeminacy of our modern liturgy. Liturgy and theology go hand in hand, they are inseparable, and as simply as I can state it Christ taught us to be self sacrificing, which most the time Novus Ordo Masses feel like I’m at a Ted Talk, and unable to deeply reflect on the march to Calvary. I think how a young boy views his hard working father who sacrifices all to provide for the family. How similar of an example do we see as MEN given to us by our spiritual fathers at The Altar in The Traditional Rite! The priest serves and works HARD the whole time, reminding us of the laser focus we should aim to have to claw our way to heaven, by the merits of Jesus Christ. With proper study, one can’t say that priest in the Novus Ordo set the same example of hard work for us to follow, that the traditional rite does offer. The Novus Ordo Mass feels effeminate, cheesy, and pushy. I say this as someone who was raised in it, and thankfully was invited to the traditional rite. I’ve attended mass at roughly 10 different parishes that only hold the Novus Ordo Mass, and a similar comparison that I can make is the lack of men at all of them. I found one FSSP that I now attend, and I could probably count more buses and minivans in the parking lot and young families attending than anywhere else I’ve been. Pope St. John XXIII prayed the liturgical reform would be a new pentecost, and if you look up the numbers, it’s been the complete opposite as to what happened in scripture. I’m surprised that two very educated guys like yourselves would overlook this so blatantly. Man craves discipline whether he realizes it or not, and the Liturgy of the Novus Ordo does not provide that so clearly, the Latin Mass does. Ave Maria!
Straight factssss
Well yes, there is a crisis. However, as Catholics we are called to love that which is true. And "orthodoxy" and Islam sure aren't.
@@coralbricks you’re telling me you read this persons whoooooole comment and that is your answer? Where in this essay of a comment did they say we shouldn’t refute Islam and Orthodoxy? It’s become obvious to me you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Absolutely YES. As a convert this past Easter who was blessed enough to have the FSSP 45 min away this is absolutely my experience. There are so many masculine men at my parish and it's incredible to experience their leadership and protection AND to be able to trust and receive their leadership and it has everything to do with the liturgy.
Could also be that men aren't spiritually minded by nature.
That wasn’t about Jordan Peterson’s message at all
This wasn't exactly a proper response to what Dr. Peterson had to say. I personally found the video a welcome criticism of our faults.
It was. If the Catholic Church truly wants to grow, they should take Peterson’s advice very seriously. At just 23 years old, I’ve seen 90% of my former Catholic School peers completely drift away from the Church and not look back.
Exodus 90 exists because of the problem Jordan pointed out.
Most real Catholic working men don't have the luxury of going to daily mass, praying the divine office along with five rosaries every day, as they are busy working most of the time trying to support their family....unlike some young barely forty year old tube apologists who sit in their "ivory tower" studio/office making videos complaining that the rest of us men are not being manly or holy enough...and "real" work may not be even a distant memory for most of them. Many Catholic men are probably working their asses off...not praying five rosaries, and praying the divine office every day because time does not allow for that. James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before God the Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
Most people in general aren't as involved in apologetics/theology/evangelism as they should be and that's the cold hard truth.
*THIS* ...someone had to finally say it.
That's a great point. Practically it's more difficult for male breadwinners to attend mass regularly, etc. My dad worked out of town, 16 hour days, shift work, crazy schedule. But he was a man of honour and made that sacrifice to give my mother time to raise us when we were young and to save money for their retirement and for his children's future. I think for older Catholic fathers (in between young men and seniors) the problem is not the same as what was mentioned in the video... they know discipline and duty very well, so why do they still detest going to church? Is it that they don't feel appreciated? Is it that they are too exhausted? is it that they, as genuinely masculine men, do not see that same masculinity being modelled in the church and feel alienated ?
I haven't met a "masculine " Catholic priest yet and I'm 48. By masculine I mean "a man's man." Not effeminate. I mean men who aren't afraid to speak out at the pulpit. The apostles were fisherman, real men. Where are the warrior priests?
Well I can assure you they are out there.
The priests at my parish (FSSP) are absolutley the warrior priests you speak of and they were instrumental in my conversion to Catholicism this Easter.
@@chloedavis3457 God Bless them then and welcome home
@@coralbricks I know they are, I see them online, but haven't met one personally is all. I by no means mean to discredit anyone who dedicates their lives to the Lord.
Cambodian priests are extremely based
As a fan of both of you, I found this dripping with beta energy which is the problem the church is facing. Skipping around the actual criticisms JP talked about isn’t doing you any favor.
This whole "beta, alpha, sigma" stuff is hogwash and pretty much a meme to begin with. In any case, which of Dr. Jordan Petersons's criticisms you believe worth mentioning?
@@coralbricks you’re a meme, that’s the point. In any case, it is obvious that the decline of men within the Christian church as a whole has been a serious problem for decades it’s not new. Why is it that this problem has gotten worse over time? Do you think it has something to do with the cultural war on masculinity and how they’re trying to destroy the nuclear family? How men are being muzzled because “the patriarchy” are “oppressors”. It is a fact that there are more single women in the Christian church than men. Why is that? I’m not saying there aren’t men in the church and that they’re all “betas “ what I am saying is the obvious, we need to support Men. In a world where men are being treated like trash and suicide rates are high among men we need to reach out to the lost men and bring them into the fold. Show them that there is a place for strong men in this world, in the church and in Gods army. This is all JP was saying but they went around and refused to acknowledge the problem because like I said, beta energyyyyyy. If you’re triggered about it then, well that’s sounds like a personal problem. God bless.
I’m Orthodox, I recently attended a Novus Ordo Mass and was appalled. There is no wonder there are few men drawn to that. It’s obvious by this clip that most Roman Catholics are aware of that and have no good response. The Pope has made it clear that Tradition isn’t being carried into the future.
I should add, I attend a Western Rite parish. Our liturgy is essentially the Tridentine Mass in English. So my previous comment is not against the western tradition.
@@tonyrandall8703 nope not at all I was Western rite orthodox and became catholic I attend The saint Gregory liturgy and it sucked so bad the chanting was bad and overall larp now I’m catholic and attend the Latin mass and it’s way better and the fact that Catholic have a Anglican rite that’s better than the NO and the western rite liturgy by a lot
@@benedict7345 I’m not entirely following you. You attended a bad western rite parish? Okay? There are many bad TLM parishes too. It’s great there’s the Anglican rite. I never said the TLM doesn’t exist. I said it’s being phased out. It isn’t supported by the pope, obviously.
Also, I don’t know what western rite parish you attended. I can say the parish I attend has beautiful liturgy. Beautiful chant.
@@benedict7345 I also am confused why you said “overall larp”. The liturgy is so similar to the Tridentine mass that many of us use the St Andrew Missal.
Fight Club really delves into the idea that in times and places of great prosperity and abundance, men will voluntarily seek out adversity and pain in order to feel a sense of meaning and purpose in life.
The Church as it stands now is too outwardly effeminate. It doesn't demand anything of its male membership other than showing up on Sundays. Men seek challenge and adversity, and if Catholicism doesn't offer either, men will fall in line with Orthodoxy, Islam, or some secular movement that offers them a meaningful existence.
Speaking from experience (although I don't think it was my specific experience), I'd say for one that men seem to be attracted to Orthodox Christianity because they hunger for constancy, tradition, firmness, and someone and something demanding more from them. And yet in that firmness they desire mercy, comfort, and encouragement all of which I believe the Orthodox Church embodies. In a way the Church is a reflection of the men they are striving to be; it is the standard. They know there's always something bigger, older, and higher that they can attain to. We see this manifested in player coach relationships and similar mentorships. Athletes don't want a coach that only makes them push as hard as the athlete is "willing" to push; athletes want a coach who see in them WAY MORE than they see in themselves and made it his goal to extract it, show it to them, and then help them realize it and actuate it and become their highest potential. We also inversely see it corrupted, manifested in abusive and inappropriate relationships...so deep is the longing in men for connection, it becomes easily corrupted.
What comes to mind here is primarily Altar Serving. Despite the terrible press all boy servers get from feminists and from all the horrible scandals, I have met so many young Catholic men (a lot of them now priests) that benefited greatly from serving as boys in a structured, serious liturgy with a strong masculine priest who acted as their mentor. I believe that boys especially benefit from altar serving with an all male squad. Boys need to feel like they’re doing something important and serious with other men. They need discipline and structure more than girls do (although that is certainly a controversial thing to say these days). Unfortunately boys don’t have that opportunity anymore and the church can really step in and fill that role (think of how popular child martial arts is getting for that same reason). The parish I go to in Miami (Novus Ordo) has all boy servers and a super serious and traditional liturgy. IT IS BOOMING and I’m willing to guess many of those boys will become either amazing spiritual or biological fathers when they grow up. That’s my rant!
I believe the lack of vocations have to do with boys not having their own spaces to foster.
@@LM-ix7pk agreed. It is part of it.
That's so true. Allowing girls to serve mass is a terrible decision since boys/men are in need of men-only tasks and activities, especially inside the Church. For some reason, men tend to step back when female presence comes in: parish councillors are mainly female for this reason, for instance. Following the same logic, if a boy knows that his job can be done by a girl (and perhaps more diligently), why would he serve the mass?
I'd love it if the average catholic was more informed on mysticism and asceticism. I believe that as we develop more of an appreciation for mystic practices and spiritual disciplines, we develop a deeper appreciation for God's role in our sustenance. It's also a potential bridge with the Eastern Orthodox, who have an immensely deep appreciation for mysticism. It might even help us resolve the schism.
It saddens me that they did not properly present the argument Dr. Peterson was making in his letter to the church video. They took a super watered-down second hand reporting of it for their source.
No need to be saddened about this, they do this constantly with many things.
They pervert the Gospel and many other things.
Meh. I like and respect Jordan, but his 'letter to the Church' video didn't speak to me personally. Maybe because I'm a woman though? I'm all for doing hard things, and I'm all for men recustomizing changeable things the way they'd like them to be in the Church. But I'm never going to be the one who makes men feel like the Church is this uber-rough boot camp place, because the particular gifts and ways God has given me to be just seem to be oriented in a different way, I guess for a different needs group. I actually thought his 'letter to the Islamic world' video was better -- but maybe I wouldn't think that either if I were Muslim myself.
It's tricky to speak to all people at all times. I imagine Jordan knows, and is settled about, which audience he hopes to reach and the limited scope of seeing that goal achieved. It's still a worthy goal and can do good. Each of us is given a particular good to do; none of us do all goods at once. If Jordan's video was helpful to you, and has moved you to change your own actions, that's great.
The elephant in the room is that masculine men don't feel drawn to the Church because the Church at all levels is run by feminine men and feminist women.
@@chrisclements1169 would you consider Christ feminine with feminine views?
@@anthonyw2931 your question is illogical. Christ was a man and God, he's unquestionably masculine.
Trent is right that older people constantly express that they want the young people but when the young people show up they push them out.
Firstly, it’s so annoying to watch people discuss a something that they both haven’t seen or engaged with. It’s over promising and under delivering on the video title.
Secondly, Peterson is making a couple of broader points. Firstly, masculinity being realized as a desire for responsibility has largely been criticized and men are left demoralized. Secondly, instead of making thing more palatable for everyone we should be calling people especially men to a higher standard of responsibility.
Our Churches tend to trade a calling on to responsibility for banal palatability. As result, Churches have not only lost a calling on to higher things, but also have by and large, lost their male attendees.
Jordan makes the point that attending Church is about rediscovering the great(est) responsibility of following Christ. Men need to be reminded of that. Set the bar high and let the men know that it’s expected they pray, take Church seriously, organize their lives around their faith, and lead others to it.
That’s the point.
This video really turned me off! As in in I’m unsubscribing! Take the time to research Mr. Peterson and the comments about JJ is just pathetic! I’m a 56 year old GP and Catholic that has trained most of my life. I’ve watched Mr Peterson on his path of religion and it’s been AWSOME to see! He’s helped so many young men on how to look at themselves and be accountable! Then he unselfishly let’s them in on his journey to the Lord! This conversation is, in my opinion, why men look at Catholic’s the way they do. MEN THAT ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING and won’t find it in this conversation! The condescending comments are just blind and ignorant.
The problem for me is the same as it was as a teacher of elementary kids (job is 75% women), and who has a nutrition degree (program is 95% female), women have essentially taken over almost every aspect of the church that they can and they are often not interested in or welcoming at all towards a man bringing his masculine discipleship to much of anything that they consider their territory.
Teach like a woman, counsel like a woman, and don't you dare call people out on their sin and challenge them to be all that God made us to be, because that requires discipline (and may hurt feelings for a time) in order to build a safe and healthy environment everyday.
Do it like a woman, otherwise it's not ok to be a man - including in church!
Maybe that's why the church took out the tougher parts of Scripture from the lectionary. Just learned about that, and it's not good! We should talk more about unconditional surrender than unconditional love. The former leads to salvation and the latter doesn't.
In Christ,
Andrew
Two things here are true at one time:
A) Yes, it needs to be that men (out of their own free will) choose to be serious about the faith and choose difficult practices.
B) The surrounding culture, community, and people need to reinforce it.
Yes! As a Mexican with a strong Catholic background we need our men to step up. A lot of our Hispanic men are looking at the faith as weak.
@@manueltomatillos3348 As an Hispanic woman, I can confirm but the question is why? Why do our men who grew up as devout Catholics don’t practice as adults?
@@LM-ix7pk I am a hispanic man and practicing my faith we exist just rarely.
Manly is to take responsibility, Love his wife take care of children and get involved in church activities, Youth kids can do more holy sacrifices themselves, need more Holy parents to raise their children close to God, Fasting and other things should be hidden or not sacrifices to God , i would not like to join any religion who does not believe that Jesus is our God
The displays of heavy yokism does not make men. Your examples of Muslims and Orthodoxy are just viewing slaves burdened by a heavy yoke. That’s not masculine. Coming to Christ to reveal our truth, our sin, and admit we need him, that’s masculine, that’s manly. Coming to Christ for Him, for His gift is the real heroes journey. Then we are given the light yoke, His yoke. No more slaves to sin. Our definition of what is manly or strong is all wrong. Christ was fully man. That’s manly. That’s our example.
The Latin Mass seems to be drawing young men and young families.
According to the Pope that’s the problem 😉
True courageous men & women are Catholics.
I just turned 60 so yep, I’m gonna be cranky !
If we cannot convince men that Church is worthwhile, then we need to stop blaming the men and take responsibility ourselves.
Jesus did not have a problem attracting and men, even in the face of persecution. Maybe the problem is that the church is not enough like Jesus.
..... and tell me this. If I can be this epic Christian, practicing all the virtues, in a lukewarm church, why do I even need that church? If the church is not helping to build me up, nor assisting me to build up others , what use is it and why should I want to practice Christianity in that context?
Iron is sharpened by iron. We are influenced by those we associate closely with. Men are edified - built up - by being with those who challenge and encourage them to always be better.
The other thing I am seeing is that the church rarely gives credit to men for what they bring to the table.
Men are rarely praised for working tough, difficult and unpleasant jobs in order to provide for their families. Rarely praised for being faithful to their wives. Rarely given credit for keeping their aggressive, risk-taking tendencies under control.
When was the last time you heard a sermon praising masculinity as a God-given virtue, without watering it down into something that your mother or teenage daughter could do?
I’ve seen it a lot over the years in volunteer fire services. The more government agencies try to remove the risk and autonomy from local levels, and the more they promote it as something that your kid-sister can enjoy, the more young men are going elsewhere. Because how do you prove to yourself that you have value, if what you are doing is neither difficult nor dangerous?
The Art of Manliness podcast had a great episode on this and explained why these nondenominational churches are growing so quickly is because they learned how to appeal to the men. He also explains how historically the church pushed the theme of the Christian soldier, wearing armor, etc, and overtime to appeal to women they turned Jesus into a softer, nonjudgmental partner that is always there and in love with you, etc. There is a lot of merit to what the gentleman described in the podcast. It is podcast #253 Why Men Hate Going to Church
"God is Love" whoever wrote the Bible is a cuck, is that what you're saying?
That's a good point. However as I mentioned elsewhere, all that effort from those "churches" falls apart once one realises they don't hold the fullness of truth.
Huh? Are megachurches offering a manly Christianity? I certainly never experienced that.
Watering down Jesus was not to appeal to women
It’s was to make Christianity easier for everyone
Stop blaming women for everything wrong in the world
Let’s take some responsibility gents
@@crossbearer6453
I think you’re doing too much. You guys have a different thesis on why the church went “soft”. Dismissing the other thesis as sexism is uncharitable. We are allowed to ponder these things and come to the conclusion that makes the list sense.
Anyway, even if the church was dumbed down “for women” I’m not sure why women would be to blame, and not the people in charge. Children are not to blame when the adults deprive them of good literature/stories.
Protestant churches have become increasingly feminine in nature, from the songs to the way we are expected to engage with one another. I have thought this and heard likewise from many men I know. This has made the order and ritual of Catholicism more attractive.
Maybe I'm masculine in this regard, but I'm a woman who's felt attracted to Orthodoxy's rigour. I think it just lends a sense of realness. I should be able to get through a fast because God gives me strength. Being told that I can bow out due to discomfort sounds like an admittance that either this isn't important or maybe God's not there.
As a woman, I have voluntarily suffered, going through natural child birth when medication could've been asked for. Why did that seem important to me? I got through thinking of the suffering of my child experiencing the consequences of my contractions and looking forward to the glory of holding my child in my arms, even though one doesn't know how long it will take. I've done this three times, so clearly I felt the suffering was valuable in some way.
Now, I would never hook myself up to labor-simulation to experience that for no reason. It can't be arbitrary. Maybe fasting under wishy-washy authority seems arbitrary. Being told this fast is happening, you're either doing it or repenting of your weakness in failing to do it, makes it seem less arbitrary and more real.
All the "orthodox" rigor falls apart once one finds out it's not really "orthodoxy". Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. There have been crises in the past and despite corrupt hierarchy there were plenty of great saints and people who engaged in ascetic practices, directing those towards God and praying for corrupt clergy.
Compares to any Protestant denomination, Catholicism does ask much more of you, or expect much more if you. When I was Protestant and I’d go to daily Mass, I saw people who acted on the way a real Christian should, I’m a way that really showed a true belief and a true relationship. And I had to wait half a year to start RCIA and then another half a year to go through it. Have been Catholic for five years and been going to I daily Mass for seven. I know what I’m called to do and to be, and the Church is the life line that helps me get my strength directly from God to do it and to be it more each day.
My greatest memory from a men’s group was from Exodus 90, we did our fraternity hike through the woods in a treacherous blizzard!
I think it's a lack of masculine creative skills, transcendence in liturgy, art, etc. I think most men are distracted by videogames, social media, and pornography. When was the last time you met a young catholic guy who painted consistently? Or one who has written many novels, scripts, poems, worked on impressive church architecture, cars etc. It doesn't help that many of these young men go to a church that appears dull, boring, and the same message of 'God is love' is always echoed. Men want more --they want a challenging adventure. Enough with the sitting around, 'setting goals', 'holding each other accountable', 'understanding feelings', It's time to get our hands dirty, take risks, and grow in fellowship/faith not in talking but DOING creative/productive work.
Isn't Christian life rightly lived difficult enough? I mean commandments, beatitudes, fasting every Wednesday and Friday, be a saint----this is about as hardcore as life can be!
It's a different kind of difficulty
Trent seems full of himself. Maybe you should listen to Peterson’s words and try to do better. The Catholic Church now incentivizes lukewarm Christians and has no idea how to reach the youth.
The fact that Trent Horn describes Orthodoxy’s approach to prayer/fasting as the approach that’s needed..
The Novus Ordo can be done well but at most parishes it is extremely feminine from the music to the messaging to the art… there’s a reason men don’t participate and their children leave the church.
@@mrbaker7443 synonymous
I think if the Catholic Church was as radical as Christ then men will be attracted. Christ was not always pleasant, but he was always right.
You need as man the call to adventure and need those that reached the truth to guide you through this. JRR Tolkien described this in The Hobbit perfectly. The Bilbos of the world that have potential but luck motivation need their Gandalf to push them to the real world.
Does anyone know how intimidating it is to go to church or to understand the liturgy of you weren’t raised properly as a catholic. It would help a lot if there was more in the churches to connect more with the liturgy especially for the majority of people who have grown up without the church.
I can imagine man! I grew up attending Novus Ordo and the first time I had the opportunity to go to a Traditional Rite Mass I definitely felt intimidated. Just remember comfort comes with time and that a lot of folks would be willing to help you
Whatever you do, stop dumbing down the faith!
We need to get cool clouthing, but for the leity
The Carlist had some drip
I dont think this is an honest discussion of Petersons point.
Trent starts into this with an unnecessary argumentum ad personam („isn’t he cranky“) and than proceeds making a weak „would‘nt it be more masculine to do everything by yourself“ point, while missing that Peterson is not talking about a mere ideal but a natural desire for adventure in men.
“So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace. In all circumstances, hold faith as a shield, to quench all [the] flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Eph 6:14-17)”
Hey Matt as a male I find it hard to do martial arts in my leotards and my makeup keeps running. I had the same experience when playing AFL.
Basically, I think us males must bite the bullet in our faith and carry that horrible cross without complaining. I keep thinking about Jesus and Mary during the Crucifixion. How did they do it? They were human just like me but I am p-weak!
Trent Horn is kind of beta on this.
Pretty easy to see what happened... 30 plus years of the bobs and the Gary's not leading their families and letting their Karen's and Susan's loose to run parish council and completely destroy all form of culture on a parish level.
The fssp parish I attend is full of men who are dedicated to their large families and lead in after mass activities like hockey on the rink or discussions at the park, and the extraordinarilly strong women of our parish keep the children engaged and under control and bring snacks and ensure the parish life is wholesome. They don't run the show and make everyone miserable, instead they are "helpers" to their husband's which produces a culture that is enjoyable, fruitful, and inclusive to both sexes
1. A message to Christians
2. A message to Muslims
3. ...
Seems like there's an entry missing in the trilogy!
No message to Jews though 🤔
I think what's funny about this is that he made it sound like men are super attracted to Islam. 6 women every one man become muslims. It's actually more of a female's religion if you go by these demographics than a man's.
I’m pretty sure he’s crazy. Peterson that is
That dude was obviously never anywhere near the military lol
In all honesty "doing stuff because you have to" is one of the most foundational messages of Christ. Matthew 25 I think but I'll check.
He literally, in no figurative way said that many people who cast out demons in His name, who professed to believe in Him would be thrown out in the darkness because they didn't help homeless followers, hungry followers, followers in jail.
The whole "magic prayer for salvation" thing is taken from MISTRANSLATIONS of a letter written by Paul to a single church with singular problems.
"Paulianity" has overwhelmed the literal words of God in the flesh.
Please prove me wrong I'll fly to New Zealand or Australia or whatever. I want to know.
Thank you so much though. This is the only place I can even breathe the words out of my heart
You go seek the call of God on your life, don't worry about manning-up the church. Trust me- God will push you to limits you never knew you had. Do you want to get manned-up, or do you want to have a relationship with the Almighty? Do that, and the rest will take care of itself.
I apologize but it is so so frustrating to watch. You're doing an excellent job but it's like watching kids get something 99% right and not stopping.
Hang out with heroine addicts. Pay homeless peoples phone bills. Meet girls who want to model and give them an avenue for something other than selling their souls. Meet pimps and find out why they do it. Pay people's bail when they get caught driving without a license. Become an emergency contact for a homeless friends 9 year old daughter. Encourage him for every penny he saves.
It's so so so hard because many church people will look at you funny. That's the hardest part by far.
And the temptations are unreal, it's so hard to keep away from falling for girls or doing drugs or drinking too much.
I've tried to live my life like Jesus, if he could walk up to a stranger at a well in samaria and tell her her body count then I can do stuff like that too.
I wish I didn't have to do this stuff but it's the only thing that brings me peace. I feel the fires of hell on my feet whenever I walk past someone who needs water or a place to stay it's awful. But if Jesus told me to do that I will.
All of the majesty, depth, and grandeur, of Vatican II, was replaced by felt boards, banners, balloons, and pizza.
Gosh, I have only been a convert to Mother Church for five days (after a life-long journey from Evangelicalism to Catholicism), so take this with a grain of salt. But, my Latin Mass Church is packed with young people, including single men, and boys and their families. Maybe the TLM is intrinsically less feminized?
“Something to Believe in -> to Hope for -> To do.”
This was a pretty good guide.
Good leadership doesn’t just challenge you to be better it shows you how it’s possible. And when all that fails, shutting up and just working together never fails.
I think the pomp of challenging pursuits is overrated particularly in a Christian context.
I want to see Peterson's message to Jews...... Oh wait that's not gonna happen with Shapiro writing his paycheck.
Trent and Matt are struggling to say it, but the church has become womanized. Period. Too many woman lectors, too many woman led parishes, it's ridiculous.
To quote the priest from a clockwork orange "What does God want? Does God want goodness or the choice of goodness? Is a man who chooses the bad perhaps in some way better than a man who has the good imposed upon him?"
Please tell this to Dr. Taylor Marshall and anyone who supports him when he criticises the pope for supporting the decriminalization of homosexuality worldwide
Coming from a hard-nosed southern Italian family, I can say that all my male relatives are rough men. They’re blue collared workers who are no nonsense. They’re loyal to their families and god. Seems pretty masculine to me.
My biggest critique to JP’s message to Christian Churches is that he was not critical enough of the Catholic Church. His accusations against Protestant churches now mostly applies to the Catholic Church unfortunately.
Omg, so tired of Trent defending the horrible weak side of the NO worship and lifestyle. Just accept the truth and build from there, it's ore honest.
Men want to be heroic. Knights in shining armour doing hard work. Churches should give men space to be knights.
Many, indeed most, of the comments so far think that JBP has a more correct read on the question than is reflected in Trent's reply. I seems to me that in general we're seeing a convergence of several dimensions of issues directly related to the most perfect visible reflection of the Trinity, which is the family. Lucia dos Santos warned us that the last battle would be over the family, and now there is literally nothing about the family which is not under direct assault, whether the existence of nature, the constituent character of participation in a dimorphic species, the permanence of such participation, markers of such participation, the reflection of such participation in society, the reinforcement in society of such distinction, the accessibility of knowledge of such through reason, the accessibility of knowledge of such through revelation, and the support for progressive realization of meaningful engagement in such.
For those with eyes to see, it seems about time to stand up, hold our heads high, for our salvation is near at hand.
My experience (mid 30s guy) started volunteering at mass got pushed out by the older crowd, so I'm no longer scheduled. Also, feet washing on Holy Thursday, I was the only man, rest was older women. Even I felt bad taking a spot, who wants to ruin grandmas day
Trent lost me. I pray a daily Rosary out of obedience first. I want to but I’m called to.
Hey guys remember the Knights of Columbus, that is a very manly mans group.
Hardly talked about Jordan’s video
Why is Australia upside down in the back.
I have a sense that Timothy Gordon is about to become a heavy hitter on this topic. ❤!
Men want groups that allow them to put their faith in action. Get out and do something!
God wants all of us to humble ourselves.
Great video. I am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy and I do admit that I find my weakness in learning how to be disciplined spiritually a large component of why I am specifically seeking out the Orthodox Church. Please don't @ me my Catholics comrades, we're all brothers in Christ.
Myself as well. From Catholic since birth.
Christ founded his church on a Rock (Peter), if you separate yourself from the leader he put on Earth and his successors you separate yourself from Christ. God didn't want many churches without a single hierarchy like the orthodox have. God wanted a united church under one leader
@@Personaje123 Please Read Two Paths by Michael Whelton
@@Personaje123 According to your Popes and Councils, even an atheist in good conscience can go to Heaven. Why should Tsarovich worry about separation from Rome in that case?
DUH!
Lol bjj discourages going super hard as opposed to any type of wrestling…poor analogy
I've always thought we should make learning Latin a more encouraged act. Seems as though it would foster a sense of community, while augmenting ones growth in discipline.
One thing men could do and are doing in some red state Catholic Churches is to act as usher security teams to help brute the safety of the worshippers inside. Also to guard the church outside if threatened with protests or vandalism.
In addition our church has a KofC motorcycle group. 👏😊
Masculine like playing in 4 fantasy football leagues…..Men in the vacuous chest sense….
Pints with Aquinas should interview Jason M. Craig on Masculinity!
How about Peterson's stance on Christian gay children/surrogacy? :D
"Where are the youth? We need more youth." Okay. We'll shutter more catholic schools.[sarcasm]
I’m 31 and I love the Church. I have been to many different masses from Spanish NO To Spanish TLM to English NO To English TLM. If there is one thing I can definitely see is that the church gets more full in a Spanish mass. That being said I think there’s a particular culture that has been shadowed that we can learn a lot from . Men in the Spanish mass have so many different ministry groups but I have yet to be approached by a man when I attend a traditional mass setting.
Jordan is not getting crankier, he is becoming a grifter.
Bishop Fultonsheen < Pete Davison
I agree we need to get more men involved to bring back the orthodox teachings and procedures, but then he does a post with Dave Rubin on supporting same sex, "married-couples" raising kids.
He was trying to have a nuanced conversation from a psychological perspective, but he was foolish to do it because it is sinful. He makes plenty of mistakes, but when he finds the thread on theology he often knocks it out of the park. His Biblical Lectures are what brought me to Catholicism.
We need to stop falling for Petersons red meat. He is not attempting to strengthen the Christian political position but rather to co-opt and nullify it.
@Ed I thought he made good points. My parish is in dire need of men. We have men but a large majority of them are legally senior citizens. Great men, but at this rate we're going have a big slump in membership and I want us to grow and am getting more and more involved to try to make it grow.
I'm curious what about it you thought was stupid.
Third Orders ! - w / Rule of Life
No offense, but I would not take advice from Trent Horn on masculinity. My man used to make fun of athletics, okay pal.
More drip=More masculinity. Duh
I'm dripped out the wazoo
Using terms like “drip” = feminine
@@JustAnother_Irishman Dry.
Drip is 🗑️ without the confidence, lift weights
@@JustAnother_Irishman Imagine thinking that you know me. lol.
I have spent time with Muslims and have cried at the depth of their devotion compared to my lame Catholicism. I even believe that Thai Buddhists are more Catholic than Catholics. Firstly, Jesus knew Buddha as Buddha was on earth maybe 500 years earlier. Secondly, some parts of Catholicism seem to mimic Buddhist ways or rituals that are clearly Biblical. Call me a heretic but this is the truth!
No
@@tvhead7074 let God decide and not ,me
Buddhism is some of the biggest hogwash there is. It's an entirely different religion. Catholics know that our Savior sacrificed Himself for our sins and Resurrected later. And from what I know of buddhism, there's much talk about escaping suffering whereas in Catholicism we should embrace our crosses.
I agree. He’s totally getting angrier. Ive talked to some others who agree
He disussed this in a recent episode. His videos since then have calmed down some what. Good to call him out on it because wrath is a sin.
Ever heard to phrase “cheap faith”?
Every man has an innate suspicion that is something is cheap, then it isn’t quality.
Well in the end it's about the fullness of truth. All the corrupt clergy or "cheap faith" in the world cannot beat the fact that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of Revealed Truth. It's not about how we may feel more engaged (though I know that's important), it's really about being rational (and having faith) and recognizing the true Doctrine.
@@coralbricks It’s not a question of whether a church has “the fullness of truth”, but whether it presents it in a way that is convincing and convicting.
@@peterwebb8732 It's important to showcase Doctrine in a convincing way when evangelizing, but my point is that someone who recognizes that the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth would have to stay Catholic. It's understading Doctrine and being rational about it. The way someone presents an argument only goes so far as that argument makes sense. A more "rugged" or severe way of fasting and penance doesn't stand on its own if it isn't grounded on sound Doctrine, which is what happens with Islam or "orthodoxy". Besides, a Catholic has the option to do so if he so wishes.
@@coralbricks ... With respect, no matter how many times you say that, the Catholic Church is not *doing* it. Much of organised Christianity bears a striking resemblance to the criticism that Christ gave of organised Jewish religion of his day: “Matthew 23:4
“For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.”
That burden or obstacle is that which unnecessarily hinders people from coming the Christ. Arguing that men could carry that burden “if they really wanted to” does not excuse us.
@@peterwebb8732 Could you give me examples of these ''burdens'' you believe exist?
Gosh, Trent. That was pretty weak!
2:39 if you don't know why do you speak?
IDK why Peterson made a message for Christians and for Muslims but not one for Jews.
It's written in John 6 v 44 no one can come to me unless drawn by the father who sent me, they've had all prophets and all the evidence, even you had all the modern music in Church it wouldn't make them Holy, because they would treat it like a rave or disco, I've seen young people in mass playing games etc, on their mobile phones during mass, if they're not drawn by the father they won't come, no matter what you do to try bring them in
Did anyone else read the psychology today article that was just in the community posts? It's not there now though
Why does Peterson always look like he’s staring into the sun in these videos?
Because he is staring into those spotlight that are overhead? Lighting is rough for cameras.