dont think the problem's with the objective quality of the games, more just because they take so long and cost so much to make. I mean sakaguchi's fantasian just took 2 yrs and was originally made for smart phones, so square could seriously learn from him again on how to make a quality cost efficient jrpg
I agree, Square needs to stop this belief that Final Fantasy is among the top of the video game market now. Because in reality they are definitely not. As a whole (with all of their games) Final Fantasy is definitely among the most successful franchises and probably the second strongest among RPG’s behind Pokemon. But their present games are not doing the “overwhelming” numbers that they expect. Quick fix is to stop making them exclusive to PS5. And speaking of PS5, they do need to tone down their expectations for their games performance on this console alone. PS5 exclusives are not doing as well as PS4, because there are still thousands of people who don’t own one yet. For example, Spider Man 1 and 2 are the best selling games on both PS4 and PS5 respectively, but Spider Man 2’s sales are like 10 Million less than the Spider Man 1.
I think Square-Enix's expectations were based on the PS4 sales of XV and VII Remake. I don't think they gave serious consideration to the lower install base of the PS5 or how divisive Remake actually was. There just weren't any real numbers to raise those questions. I think their estimates will be much more conservative going forward. I'm really curious as to how this will affect XVII and Remake Part 3.
Well, ff16 has only sold like 300k on PC so far. Is ps5 exclusivity even really an issue? Most people are willing to buy a console if a game is good enough.
The series MUST be rebuilt, No sony guidelines, no make believe ethics committee (sony again lol) no BS. We want to see the original stories of the games we grew up with and are now playing with our children shown receiving the ROYAL Treatment! We want to see our childhood heroes in their original clothes without censorship changes, we want to see the playful witty banter and struggles between the group of friends that take on evil and save the world. We want to see sharp gameplay that build upon the systems that these games are based on. Remake, Rebirth, and the past 3 FF games have NOT done that.
Devs saying remaking a game 1 : 1 would be boring and not exciting is the most BS I ever heard in gaming world if not my entire life what a bunch of out of touch arrogants
@@sariihover4798 its funny how that's always the first excuse when given to FF games and til this day we have a zero take on any game that did a full "1 to 1" and was hated for doing so. And before they* say the last of us, that doesn't count.
if theres the biggest take away from this: square needs a "new sakaguchi" type leader where s/he would take the lead from the front to define "what Final fantasy is" and every division would have to follow that person and definition. if anything, that position is almost akin to kevin feige of the mcu. that person needs to be both knowledgeable in not only the creative side of things, business side of things but also the social aspect of things. his/her obligation is to oversee everything from atop, in an almost "universe god" level. s/he would not directly handle a division nor would s/he be building a game, this is to free him up from any of those obligations. building games would be the division heads' obligation. whoever would be on that position cant be someone that wants to be directly involved in a game, to avoid biasy towards a game that a division would be doing. that person should be someone that really wants to be on that position and not just because everyone is saying that s/he should do it. thats why nomura cant be the one. i would rather that he goes back to the drawing board for versus 13. that man needs his proper take on it. the community seems to still have high interest on versus 13 as well.. if they cant properly think of 17 or 18, then theres no lost in going back for versus 13. he also needs to pass of KH to the next lead director . cant be yoshiP as well. he is too bull-headed towards the things he likes to do. let him continue be the head of 14 then let him do titles like tactics and 16. kitase is one of the better choices, but for me personally, i would rather be he a division head as well.. he is too much of a creative and would be a waste if he would not continue doing so. that is of course unless he wants to give up being a division head/game director and wants to be in the running for the "new sakaguchi" position. if i may be bold, get tabata back. for everything that happened, he was used an escape goat for a boat that was already sinking. for whatever mess that happened, people are gravely underestimating how well he handled that hellfire. im not saying that tabata should be the "new sakaguchi" but at the least count him in for running for the "new sakaguchi" position as for the others, im sorry but my knowledge is too small to comment about who else can be on the running for the position. i honestly would like to hear darryl's opinion about it. i see FFUnion as the "historians" of final fantasy. also, as much as the discussion got heated, i like how clark and jacob contradicted each other. i lean more towards jacob's take, but clark's contrasting opinion made it so that we also see holes on jacob's argument. and as heated as it got, that was a healthy part of the brainstorming. kudos to ryan for being a great host.. people underestimate how hard it is to be a good host. if anything, id like to have the same topic with different panel members to get more perspective on things. for the "who is right then?" no one. on this kind of panel brainstorming you cant declare someone is right or someone is wrong. thats the reason theres a need for a "new sakaguchi". whatever s/he decides on is the course to take, regardless if its wrong or right
Great discussion with some really interesting points and counterpoints. Thoroughly enjoyed it, thanks! To me, the most important point was that Square shouldn't try to be the "biggest and best", but rather focus on and solidify what the core of the mainline franchise is, or what they want it to be. FF16 was overall enjoyable, but I'd have gladly traded a good chunk of the playtime and exaggerated icon fights with a tighter narrative and a world that is either smaller but worth exploring or simply linear.
I think iteration is important. They need to keep and make the new foundation for FF combat the FF7R system. However, I do also think that they should "reboot" the franchise with a "The Final Fantasy" type of rebranding. Maybe even a new name, if need be. Less emphasis on realistic graphics, but rather artsyle, world building and narrative. Imo, what they should take from Western developers is making the worlds feel lived in with stories happening all over and side quests that are compelling. If they keep and iterate on the FF7R combat, then they can build on everything else. Finally, they need to build a team that only focuses on FF, and use that team to cultivate new leaders and visionaries. That way some could cut their teeth on spinoffs, before coming back to the team they're familiar with when tasked with the next FF.
I like what they tried with Stranger of Paradise. They should do more of those with more focus on the story. Or at least one more with a prequel to FFX. Jecht is literally a Stranger of Paradise. Jecht Braska and Auron, and how they actually intended to end the cycle with them but they got betrayed by Kinoc. So they had no choice but to go through with Jecht being the Final Aeon. Then Auron DLC going after Yunalesca, Auron gets defeated, walks down Gagazet unsent, big revelation from Elder Ronso, the gagazet summit where all the fayths summoning zanarkand are if touched by unsent sends them to that dream zanarkand. Auron gets there, but it also explains how Jecht got to Spira, it's because of a Blitzball, how strong Jecht is connected to blitzball that when a ronso played blitzball and accidentally kicked the ball into the summit of fayths, when Jecht was training it transported him to Spira. or something else.
@@ReidusQuitzed Yeah, make Stranger of Paradise a series spinoff that acts as origins of the villains or worlds prior to the original games. A Jecht, Auron and Braska prequel action game, maybe in the vein and scale of a Takes of Vesperia/Xillia by Team Ninja or Platinum Games could be amazing.
To reach the most people possible, they would have to ABANDON their identity! Character/party interaction in the context of an amazing story is what makes final fantasy unique. It makes games like Skyrim, Zelda, Witcher, Wu Kong, dark souls, all lonely in comparison. I prefer final fantasy over these games for that reason. Yet some people don’t care if they are the only person “saving the world” or even prefer it. But you can’t have both. I say they stick to what they’re with the content, and fix exclusivity. The identity crisis will only come if they take too much heed to fans wanting to pull them in every direction. Keeping their identity means saying no to certain people.
Final Fantasy, historically, has several qualities to it. Especially the first 6 ones. - Linear, operatic (music playing an important role), cinematic (a grand story on an epic scale), story. - Mechanics influenced by turn-based role-playing games. FF1 being the most influenced by D&D - A magical medieval world discovering ancient technology, or, a contemporary sci-fi world using, discovering, or abusing ancient magic. - A game where a cast of characters matters. Your "party". FF6 being the most ensemble cast. - A large explorable open-world where going off the beaten path rewards you with a secret boss fight or a powerful legendary item. It's not about being turn based or not. It's about allowing role-playing expression through combat mechanics instead of story choices. Example: the job system. In FF16, before the DLC, was there really a way to make Clive a "ranged" character? FF7, because of the materia system Cloud could be a caster, or a tank, or a pure melee DPS. As action packed as FF16 was, a lot of the combat systems felt underdeveloped and more fitting a spectacle fighter where you're playing as a character, instead of defining and ROLEPLAYING a character through combat. FF16 also failed at exploration. A lot of the things you "find" are usually worthless to you.
Do you mean Linear as in the story always goes the same way? Because if you mean map design as linear or hallway exploration then I have to disagree, while the general world technically was linear they made it feel and function like an open world and only towards the teen's mainline entries did they do linear hallway exploration.
@@James-u1y linear story. generally linear. despite some installments of FF where you have to the freedom to do events out of order, outcomes seldom branch.
final fantasy should take some inspiration from baldurs gate 3 tbh with an ensemble cast, class system where you can strategize each of their builds, the combat and how you explore the world and get to know its lore as you go.
1:54:34 The FF brand worked when it didn’t keep reinventing itself to be adaptive. Continuing to chase trends has created an identity crisis and is also heavily linked to these lengthy development cycles. This also really affects sales because the core audience can’t even promote the games anymore because we don’t even know what is going on. Again, Square really needs to get a plan for titles moving forward, restructure / restaff dev teams accordingly, clearly communicate + market this and stay the course despite initial tepid sales to see iterative improvement. Seriously, why would the old audience and any newcomer commit to a series that doesn’t commit to any consistent gameplay / narrative attributes?
I agree with the take that Square need to diversify their FF offerings. I really think the combat presented in FF7 Remake and Rebirth is the way forward. I would make that the combat system of the mainline games. I would then have a “Final Fantasy Classic” series that creates original FF games in the HD-2D style of Octopath Traveller, with evolutions of the basic turn based combat. Then I would create a more action focused FF series that doubles down on FF16/DMC combat. With stylish, flashy, action combat that rewards good combinations of chained abilities. I would probably add Stranger of paradise itemisation into this series and boom, gold dust. The mainline games can keep going big budget, aiming for 3-5 year development cycles. While the much cheaper and quicker to produce FF classics series could aim for 1-2 year dev cycles and then the action base series should aim for a 2-3 year dev cycle. If you split each series into specific business divisions and stagger their release, you could have a FF game every year or every other year and it wouldn’t feel like rushed stuff because your alternating the series, sort of like Monster hunter does
Imo a big factor to FF losing relevancy is a lack of style. FF looks like every single other big budget fantasy game out there nowadays. Partially because they pioneered that traditional high fantasy mixed with sci-fi aesthetic with FFVI-FFVIII, yes, but audiences have largely moved on and want something new and fresh. When I first saw the reveal trailer for FFXVI I could not believe how bland it looked. It looks like literally every other game on the market. There was not a second in that trailer that peaked my interest, and I was watching it as a fan of the franchise. If the success of Persona 5 tells us anything it’s that a unique and interesting style can create a giant in the video game industry. Persona was a niche franchise prior to P5 blowing up, in fact Atlus as a developer was incredibly niche. They had their audience but never saw mainstream success. Now, they’re considered one of the greats exclusively because they dared to create something new, interesting, visually appealing and never before seen. Some story with Nier: Automata, Yoko Taro hadn’t made a single hit until Automata entered the scene and blew people away with its unique visual style and incredible thought-provoking story. Square needs to take that approach with FF if they want it to stand out from the crowd and be the *Next Big Thing*. Less focus on graphical fidelity, more focus on style and design. If every game allegedly has mindblowing graphics that just translates to every game looking the same.
I somewhat disagree with the premise that Final Fantasy as a brand needs to expand and grow going forward. Or rather I disagree that it should be important to traditional FF fans that it grow. I liked the games, not the brand. I loved (let's say) 3-10 (+10-2). If the game is not at all like those games that I loved, I'm not interested. I don't really care whether it calls itself "Final Fantasy". Why is it important that the name/brand "Final Fantasy" succeeds if the games aren't the ones I want to play.
This is hands down my favorite Final Fantasy related discussion I ever watched - not any theory-crafting, not any ending discussion, no - it's THIS! The fact that I'm not even interested in any theories anymore is a testament to the subject of THIS discussion, cause SE managed to make me lose interest in that. I watched all 3 and a half hours of this and could honestly have watched double that. And I loved that I agreed with every single point that was made, that I kept nodding my head and was glad that all the points I've thought of myself in the past were brought up. And I think one of the reasons this was so good is that it had people who were ready to be /critical/ and not sugarcoat things. SE has a big problem of being out of touch with modern young market, they're a case of old-school Japanese gentlemen doing things the old way and not appealing to the younger international market. The marketing and market research division is in the gutter. Why are they not researching, not taking advantage of popular characters and trends? Hell, why are they not checking out tiktok at least, there are local creators doing God's work attracting younger audiences in their stead. WHY is Tifa still not in Tekken, even after Harada commenting on how this is down to the devs? Why is Fortnite and omg ASTROBOT being fumbled so horrendously? It's the most out of touch 'boomer' thing ever (me being a millenial myself lol). The development cycles and lengths are disastrous! The marketing frankly sucks. Remake sold because OG sold it, and Rebirth DIDN'T sell as well because REMAKE didn't sell it, but everyone still wants to be in denial that Remake may have made the wrong decisions (some of them because devs weren't motivated to 'just' remake the game and I'm sorry, but we all do shit we don't like for work cause it's necessary lol), the changes alienated audiences, the 3-parter also did, despite my feelings about them these are facts. Now Rebirth, arguably the better game, is fighting for its life through word of mouth and critics to get the sales and good will back. But even here, with the parts that it did fumble (the final chapters), my good man Kitase comes out on stage and says that they are happy that fans are not happy with it and are angry afgjhgjsdfh, my man what are you saying? Now is not the time for that! Or how they intentionally cultivate the most toxic fanbase that just alienates new young streamers (bad move!) because they think the 'conversation' is cute lol And let's not forget the disastrous Rebirth marketing that was only focused on Zack with his 5 min screentime and Aerith's will-she-won't-she death and bored everyone to death. Horrible decisions that won't attract any new fans and will bore old ones. The anime was also such a good point! Nojima released an excellent prequel novel ToTP about Tifa and Aerith, why was THAT not an anime?? Just baffling decisions all around and no market research... P.S. the only thing I will disagree about is how Hamaguchi being a huge FF7 fan means he wouldn't need supervision, because I can look around and name 5 self-proclaimed HUGE and long-time FF7 fans and 3 out of those 5 will be wrong about very important story points lol, I do not trust FF7 fans to know their own game ahjgfajfh
Enix doesn't realize kids want to play battle royal, gachas, and other live service stuff. Hack and Slash was popular in the 2000s on the PS2 with DMC and Ninja Gaiden. That style of gameplay is not trendy, It's more boomer gameplay that kids are not interested in. At the rate they are going, Final Fantasy 19 might be a battleroyal, after all the kids moved on and don't play them anymore.
It doesnt help that final fantasy 13, 15, and 16 have sloppy story telling. For a franchise that is heavily story based, theyve been missing the mark on newer titles. FF7 Rebirth is my GOTY but relies on the original as a template. 13 was filled with terminology vomit, 15 was spread too thin between different media (and shoulve been more contained in the game itself), and 16 lost momentum in the second half of the game (became repetitive without saying anything new and the ending was vague) All 3 left a sour taste in my mouth and holds them back from leading the pack of JRPGs
if horizon can get remade 7 years after, square can take a crack at fixing 15s story. fabula nova crystallis project had a huge impact on the trajectory of ff
I was watching this when it was live! You guys did great! Very good discussion! Over the years, you've become very articulate with your words! Nice going!
They need to use 7 Rebirth as a core foundation for the series moving forward and build the brand based on a gameplay style like from soft has done with dark souls and elden ring. as good as 16 was, they have to stop changing battle mechanics so drastically every time. 13, 15, 7R and 16 all have radically different combat mechanics and expectations which for the average consumer creates confusion about the series.
Nah this is a terrible idea. Final fantasy was its best form with final fantasy 10. They need to go back to that formula. Its never going to be a massive hollywood blockbuster game.
Imagine if Tekken or Call of Duty had new control schemes every game. It would be bananas. It's not the battle system that Square needs to re-invent each time, it's the world and the art direction. Frankly those have been essentially frozen since 13.
FF13 was the start of the troubles, but the 14 1.0, 15, 16, FF7 Remake and Rebirth had the series become a garbage fire. A garbage fire that wasn't contained, spread to the Square-Enix offices and now threatens to burn the whole company down. FF7 was a failure in sales but rebirth was a biblical failure. Then there is the reunion game that no one played. Thats insane.
@@justiceomally7434 As always, XIII haters are wrong and don't miss any opportunity to toss their vitriol. VII was the beginning of the problems. The team members that got famous because of VII (specially Nomura) got the opportunity to make their own FF game, FFVIII, which is an awful game. But they kept rising in the company, influencing X-2, and the XIII trilogy. And even today, they keep doing their wacky nonsense in their sequels of FFVII
@@justiceomally7434 not really x-2 started it because ff games were not suppose to be sequels 11 was online only then 12 tried to be a mmo style rpg that plays itself, x-2 was the beginning of the decline 13 was when it hit rock bottom,
@@adthomp X-2 was popular with girls and boys at the time. It was not a failed sequel. FF 12 got revelant wings and 11 was the online game? never played it. but that's apples to oranges
The two best gameplay styles were the turn based from FF10 and the action-turn based hybrid from the Remake trilogy. ATB works well in action but not in Turn based imo. If going forward they can make games building and improving on either of those styles of gameplay, then the games would sell well. If they keep trying to innovate for the sake of chasing trends, like making FF16 because newer gamers can’t handle turn based, and then proceed to make the game lack RPG features, then Square will continue to suffer. BG3 doing as well as it did is proof that turn based still has appeal.
I can't recall a single SquEnix title that they ever claimed "met expectations". When I hear that something didn't it's normal for them. Unfortunately Square is a company full of very talented people and brilliant teams that are all constrained by terrible upper management. Other than the first CEO in the 80's saying "Yes Sakaguchi San, you can make Final Fantasy if you get enough volunteers to work on it", I can't think of a time that their executives added benefit.
In my opinion, the root problem is Versus 13, which seems originally planned to be as a spin off series of FF. After the development hell, they are forced to push Versus 13 as 15. Which means technically FF starting from 15 is a spin off from the original FF series and the original FF series ends with 13. What we know as FF series now is the series that originally would be the Versus series.
Return to the core of the series. An epic adventure, crystals, a doomed planet, airships, job system, loveable characters in the party that have real development and twists in their lives, a world that is exciting, terrifying, mysterious, whimsy and fun. A return to the heart of the franchise, from the Sakaguchi era. Stylist and different, I think having a bold art direction where the characters and the world look like a Yoshitaka Amano painting come to life - watercolors , hyper styalized, an art direction that moves with not just the visual aesthetic but the music as well, bring BOTH Soken and Uematsu back on for it, together. We don’t need another hyper bloated budget AAA game with cutting edge graphics. We don’t need another generic hack and slash game with zero RPG elements. Bring back FF, back to its roots, and make it the most final fantasy-esque Final Fantasy yet.
As much as it pains me to admit this, Rebirth failed in spite of it's mostly positive reception, due to Square releasing several major titles within a brief period, and making it PS5 exclusive. Not to mention the market was saturated with high-budget RPGs from Square Enix, making it challenging for each game to stand out and achieve high sales. Still, it's surprising that the game remains unknown to many despite the numerous ongoing Let's Play series and discussions. It still irks me that games like Steller Blade are being nominated for GOTY, while Rebirth fail because of its stiff "competition", despite it arguably being a better game overall. Rebirth set a high bar with its rich storytelling and well-developed characters. Stellar Blade, while visually impressive and featuring mostly solid gameplay mechanics, didn't resonate strongly with some players in terms of narrative depth and character development. Rebirth was an exceptional game and warrants far better treatment than this, though it's undeniable that Square has made too many missteps, which is such an unfortunate reversal of fortune.
Also your building point is strong the first Assassins creed was not the game that the Ezio trilogy became - if Metaphor Fantazio is a big hit it will be because of the Persona and SMT games that went before. If SE want to do a turn based FF better than Metaphor or BG3 they will fail because they need to innovate off a track record their teams don't have anymore - so the future is bleak
"7 Remake is closer to 16 than Code Veronica is to Resident Evil 1" Guy I don't think you played Code Veronica. That game is straight up just a classic RE game with what was, at the time, more up to date mechanics. It even uses by and large the same menus as the previous 3 games. This was an interesting discussion to hear but this guy had a lot of weird takes like this that make me disagree with what he has to say more often than not.
They basically built different types of audiences over the years but the games they keep churning out cant cater to them all and at the same time they try to get new ones which adds more to the mix.
While typing this, I am only into the video about 50 minutes. So far, I haven't heard a point brought up yet that I really expected to hear. And that is that many people who were hyped for ff7 remake lost interest in the remake trilogy entirely as soon as they figured out that it wasn't actually a remake. Don't get me wrong, I liked the game, even as a huge fan of the original, which I played when it was new. But the way they blew their load by revealing sephiroth basically at the beginning of the game and continued to do so throughout the rest of the game, the introduction of what essentially look like dementors from Harry potter, some of the unnecessary padding, the way they handled the death of president Shinra vs how it was handled in the original, how they recreated the end of the original game with the standoff between cloud and sephiroth from the og game, and the other various ways that they changed certain things that clearly sent the message that this was not really a "remake" of ff7, did turn off alot of people. The games demo caused people to believe that they were literally getting Final Fantasy 7, in all it's original glory, with updated graphics and gameplay. Then, as soon as you are done with that demo portion in the full game, you are slapped in the face with the painful reality that you are definitely not getting that. I personally am still interested in how this trilogy plays out, but I completely understand why it seems a lot of people who ran out and bought FF7 remake did not show up for rebirth. It seems obvious. Of course, I understand that this video is a discussion about the final fantasy series as a whole. I just felt like the fact that many people who are older players were not happy with the story direction of FF7 remake didn't really get brought up.
I think a very important point is that the executuves have REALISTIC sales expectations, because no matter how good the games the guys at the top will dismiss them by saying "the sales were not enough".
@@Dracobyte Right. Like they need to consider that not everyone in the world has a PS5. And because of that, PS5 exclusives are not doing as well as PS4. I mean look at the sales difference between Spider Man 1 and 2
According to many analysts, the sales expectations WERE reasonable and simply not met here. Jacob also brings up this point as well. This was not the case here, we're looking at an actual shrinkage of sales in the series.
You have no idea how expensive these games are to make. The reason why the sales need to be this high is just to recoup development costs. It is a baseline that needs to be met.
Mostly the sales expectations were to ensure they had enough to cover for blunders like NFT, Metaverse, Forspoken, and other trash investments. I'm glad the sales didn't meet expectations as that would have them focus on ridding themselves of trash investments and put more care into current games and bringing back old franchises to produce profits and sales. Also ensuring games are multi platform ensures higher sales.
5.5million copies sold wouldn't break even at 300million budget. Developers don't get anywhere near the 60-70 dollar price tag of these games. Most developers get 12-18, and if they self publish they might get 30+USD, but they will still have to eat the cost of printing the bluerays/shipping ect ect. So when you look at the estimated cost of 140million for ff7remake, and then estimate what Rebirth costs, not counting marketing. You then have do the math starting well below full price per copy, and oftentimes no matter how generous you are with the amount you estimate they realistically get per copy, they will fall short. Steam and Sony will take a cut just to be on their ecosystem, so unless you're first party studio you will have a even harder time breaking even.
Imo there should be at least 4 teams. One to do ff14 of course. One to make an action ff. One to make a turn based one. And a team to make whatever else. Whether its a pixel game like ff1-6, a tactics game, a spinoff or whatever. And this is just for ff. The pixel games can help get titles out to be made cheaper but also have more frequent releases in between the bigger games.
I have a question for all the SE apologists? If SE really wants a big mainstream hit, why is devil may cry the model and not elden ring? Dmc...even the best selling entry in the series... doesn't sell more than dragon quest. SE is scared of elden ring because they know they'll ever produce a game so deep and detailed.
I am personally tired of all the soulslike games, elden ring is an instant classic for sure, but I didn't get black myth wukong for that very reason even if it is a great game
This is sort of addressed in the video. When FF16 went into production DMC was kinda big and so was Game of Thrones. Hence the blueprint was FF with DMC combat and GoT story. The issues is that by the time the game came out GoT had soured for a lot of people and DMC was old news. It’s the issue of trends changing too fast for game development cycles.
@somethang9264 well, I personally haven't played much of elden ring but....24 million other people sure have. And the combat isn't the thing to copy from elden ring, it's the expansive open world and detailed lived in feel. I'm just trying to address the fact that final fantasy isn't selling and how to make it sell.
@alanlee67 yea, i get that, imo though they need to stop focusing on putting out mega hits. Capcom and fromsoft have been doing very well with manageable outlook on sales. They really just need to work on games that are fun to play and it will pay off
I personally think final fantasy 16 would have done a lot better if they kept certain RPG elements in but going even farther into the devil may cry type gameplay. As a fan of DMC 16 is really just a worst version of that That's why they should have done enough to make it stand apart while keeping some of the identity of final fantasy.
FFXVI needed a slightly tighter plot, actual side quest design, and some extra layer to the combat(elemental weaknesses/status effects), and possibly an actual town(rebuilding Rosaria after Titan's attack would have been huge, for example) FFVII Rebirth needed to not be a requel to the original FFVII and instead just retell the original story as it was rather than doing this Sephiroth/Aerith with knowledge of the future plot that has been enjoyable to longtime fans, but completely alienated newcomers who should just be enjoying the plot without asking thousands of questions and wondering if they need to play the original game. I really think those changes/additions, day one on PC, and some better marketing-would have seen both these games hit 5-10+ million in sales by now. OH, and just adding in, the naming conventions of the Remake trilogy are idiotic. Especially when, between the releases of Remake and Rebirth, they released a prequel set before the events of the original FFVII, that was named Final Fantasy VII Reunion. The Remake trilogy should have stuck with Remake as the name, and done Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 for the tagline of each entry. But SE's business/marketing department is actually moronic, and cannot make a smart decision to save their life.
Bring Sakaguchi back... Though he more than likely wouldn't want to lol. But definitely stop catering to the West, the West is a mess right now stuck on dumb ideology that ruins and destroys art.
I really liked most of this podcast - it's always great to see Jacob on your show - but the way that XVI was only brought up occasionally as an example of a wild divergence from the norm did make me feel like I was losing my mind. By all accounts, Rebirth was the one that undershot expectations, not XVI, and that was the game that took most of your suggestions to heart: a faster development cycle, iterating on the team's past gameplay systems, sticking to what was "iconic" about the IP. XVI reviewed well, met sales expectations, and it sounds like the team has turned right over into working on their next big thing. What am I missing, here? It feels like the fanbase's mixed response to the pacing and the last act has gotten blown out of proportion into this imagined brand-crisis failure. I vastly preferred Rebirth, but it feels like the only lesson that they'd really need to learn from that is that the sequel to a Half-Life 3-level impossible game is probably going to sell worse.
@@sagewaterdragon I would not call XVI’s development fast-it began back in late 2015 after the completion of the Heavensward. XVI took 8 years. Rebirth, having the benefit of being a direct sequel and using an established engine took 3. The only thing that XVI iterated on from cbu3’s past is questing structure of XIV, which I think is undeniably the worst part. Maybe the concept of a global cool down but thats it. XVI also did not meet expectations and neither did rebirth. XVI sold well at launch but had a weak tail. This is we haven’t gotten an update since the first week sales of 3m. It’s probably only bare moved to 4 and still under 5. Thats a huge drop off from 7R1 and a bigger drop off from XV for both of them.
@@TheNightSkyPrince Sorry, there was a misunderstanding. I meant that VII Rebirth had a shorter development cycle and was iterative, not XVI. My point was that the game that was moving in the right direction (Rebirth) was doing even worse than the one that went against everything you all were advocating for (XVI) in a way that I think would've been interesting to talk about. That said, maybe XVI has undershot expectations as well - at launch they said it was meeting them, but we haven't heard an update since. I imagine they'll talk about the "18 month plan" when it's all said and done.
@@sagewaterdragon OOOH. I’m sorry I misunderstood. Well, the biggest problem with Rebirth selling is two things: 1) a direct sequel to a Remake with a controversial story 2) Little to no marketing. Tremendously more marketing dollars were poured into XVI. A much more accessible that had no prior game to be a barrier to entry. With XVI the demo’s virality probably change the course of its destination. Prior to the demo, XVI’s hype was non existent. Anecdotally, prior to that very exciting demo, XVI had been the lowest FF performing title in terms of viewership ever. The marketing for XVI was there. The launch party for it with all the FF content creators invited to it, the live action commercial. Of course XVI sold more.. it would kind of be pitiful if it didn’t lol. But I think that Rebirth just had too many external challenges to overcome
@@TheNightSkyPrince That all makes sense. I suppose I'm just underestimating the marketing spend on XVI, or overestimating Rebirth's. You'd have a much better sense of the buzz around the titles.
Here is my honest take: It would be wise of Square to listen to the fans. HOWEVER, they should keep most of XVI's assets and use them for the next title. Starting anew would only drag them down. Not only that. But i'd use the current state of the fan base as the core principle behind the next game storyline. 'The Crystals are long dead. The world is at its last breath. Should we keep trying to save it by restoring the crystals or should we fasten its downfall to call upon a new beginning? What would the warriors of light do?' Essentially FF5, but darker. With the player being responsible to assemble a party for their quest. And PLEASE! Bring back the trifecta of waifus. I mean it! 😭
1. Try lower expectations, SE expectations are very often just to high 2. Maybe advertise your lesser known games better 3a) Stop chasing trends and try something new once in a while (maybe 1 out of 5 projects is actually experimental) 3b) Maybe give some of your employees 5 to 10% time for working on their own ideas and once in a while let them present, hell they can even work in groups 3c) Call it Square Enix idea factory and if those employees can make a concept or even a small demo out of their idea, make it available to your customers to see, if there might be interest. It does not have to be a full demo, maybe some time of gameplay mechanic, battle system, graphical designs.
I want my gambit system. Still playing 12 my favorite combat system of all time. The fighting animations and the gambits are the best and I want to see iterations on that.
In a nutshell, FF these days lack DEPTH. Combats dumbed down, storys dumbed down, difficulty dumbed down, gameplay dumbed down. FF7R only had like 5 different weapons. You cant miss anything anymore. The reason new users dont get it is because the games are just bad and the only people that get it are us, the suckers that Square milks to oblivion
The worst right now are their stories, they are a complete mess. This is a major issue as most people are drawn to rpg's because of the storytelling and characters.
Combat and difficulty dumbed down - really? Rebirth's post-game was pretty brutal, but even if you didn't find it hard, it's still harder than literally any other mainline FF. I agree about the story and story telling - I'm still a bit sour about how they handled Dyne - but I wouldn't say other elements have been dumbed down at all.
To save final fantasy, square enix need to move away from trying to be a mainstream action game. Go back to final fantasy x style and focus on telling a good story rather than massive set pieces and hollywood crap.
Biggest problem witht his is that there's so much more competition now. Telling a good story is not enough. There's a lot of games now that have great stories
@@Xcyper33 It's more likely the opposite, because it's hard for developers to tell good stories now when they are more concerned with assassin's creed towers, fetch quests, collectables, which slows pacing of their stories to a crawl. Most often than not storytelling is put on the backseat in the modern day, making them lower quality as a whole
This right here will destroy the series. If you only care about good stories then read a book (providing that you can actually read) or watch a movie. These are VIDEO GAMES, and the most important aspect is how you balance story AND gameplay. They're both equally important.
It's not about total sales, it's about not being expectations. I'd it didn't meet expectations on PlayStation they won't meet expectations multiplatform either. It's a deeper problem with FF not resonating liked it used to despite making the best games since the PS2 era.
@@Ladiesman-js3kt Expectations are different than actually being profitable. I could see FF7 Rebirth and FF16 being profitable, but not meeting the expectations of Square Enix on how profitable it would be. Big thing is Square Enix needs to learn to reign in those expectations and make them more realistic.
@@Ladiesman-js3kt It's hard for them to make the best games possible when they keep flipping the non existent formula and teams have to always start from scratch. The games lack identity. And as much as I love the remake games, that combat system is way too complex for the average player to pick up and get as opposed to a simple atb based combat system or what they had in 15 (tho I don't personally think 15 had a good combat system at all, it had potential for growth).
I think it would help if they scale back and focus on what made the older games great and really stick to an identity. Despite the leveling system changing each game, all the old games shared the same combat (turn-based), fantastic and compellingly deep storylines, fun and plentiful side quests, and a certain charm that they haven't been able to replicate since then (imo). I think what hurt Rebirth's sales was that it's FF7R is multi-game. I would rather have waited for a great single game than have three games where I have to wait years in between each one. I think if they really want to experiment so heavily with each title, they should move away from the FF brand and start a new one.
I commented before I finished watching the entire video (more than halfway before), but I just finished and wanted to add that this was a fantastic discussion.
50:58 That's key, brother. You are totally right, and we have two very successful games to prove it: Stellar Blade and BM: Wukong. Those two games are closer to be a soulslike than to be a DMC -like game. Nier Replicant and Automata have more of that classic hack n' slash gameplay, but what happened? Souls games became extremely popular and their sales are huge, that's why so many indie and AA studios make games in the souls like genre instead of the normal hack n' slah. I'd say that, yes, if FFXVI would've been a souls like in some degree, it would've been better received. Specially because the souls like genre allows RPG progression and customisation better than the dmc style.
Persona 5 surpassed 10 million with base + royal across multiplatform. Remake did 5million on PS4, and intergrade 2million on ps5+PC. Rebirth sales dropped by half, like most Final Fantasy sequels. It's safe to assume PC version of Rebirth would also drop off by half from Remake PC version. Enix can't be bothered doing DMC for one team (ff14 cash cow team), kingdom hearts style action RPG for another team, and turn based for a yet another team. FF16 and Rebirth are presenting huge issues for them, throwing more crap at the wall and hoping it sticks is how they got here in the first place. The only viable method of profits they have now is the MMO, and they haven't done a turn based FF in over 20 years, so not sure why he even brought that up. FF14 is all they have left, it's the last place their old audience is hanging on to, and ff16 had negative effects on the FF14 team, and we see the issues the lack of focus and resources taken away from the MMO is causing now. Enix needs to stop starving the FF14 team by taking away it's resources and talent, or they end up in a much worse spot than they are now.
Not to be a boomer... but maybe make the RPG an RPG and see what happens. I have a hard time believing that RPGs can't be successful given the last 10 years - plenty of other games have been the pinnacle of releases their year. FF is a trend follower at this point and they're embarassed of their own legacy - you can tell when something is inauthentic and trying to be cool/chasing trends.
If FF were really doing nothing but chasing trends then 16 would be a Soulsborne game and not a Character action game, so I really would like to know what you’re referring to when you say that
12:00 "it's not that the shareholders wanted to make more money, it's because they wanted to get a better return on their investment than if they had just put their cash in a mutual fund instead" - that's a longer way of saying "they wanted to make more money" lol
I think an important side note 1:44:00 is that FFXI was an MMO made with Sakaguchi's clear vision, and FFXII plays almost exactly like it. It really is a sort of turn based MMO in the same way 12 still kinda is, you just can't pause time. Compare that with What Yoshi P. has made with FFXIV and FFXVI and he doesn't have a clear vision. FFXIV copied WOW and barely have any jrpg mechanics left. FFXVI copied DMC and doesn't have any real jrpg mechanics. I mean go read the interviews on the FFXI website, he clearly stated that though he respected what SE had made he was always a fan of hack and slash, and what blizzard was doing with games like diablo. He even said that he NEVER tried playing FFXI though now he's in charge of it 😂. My point with this is that I think it's okay to have different visions at the company but man when your ideas aren't even in the same genre then maybe a mainline game shouldn't be assigned to you. Now that said, it worked for FFXIV because that's where most MMO's are now, but FFXVI should have been FF Adventure or Adventure 2.
Exactly, YoshiP has no clue and just a copy king. He only knows how to create dumbed down games And guess what, even ff14 is starting to fail now when people are sick of boring stats progression, itemisation and homogenisation of skills and jobs, plus repetitive side quests. He’s a clueless guy that got lucky, people need to stop worshipping that guy and bring him down to earth.
@tinyblackmage I mean the one thing I can say is that he is a great manager and I think he brings value to SE for that purpose, he just shouldn't be making creative decisions.
@@Ephremjlm1 In theory yes, but we’ve all seen how he even as producer only has influenced the creative direction. He’s well known to be a micro manager and there are rumours that some couldn’t stand working with him Maybe he can put as non-executive producer, forbidding any voice from him on creative decisions
@tinyblackmage yeah idk about how it is to work for him but I imagine probably isn't easy as he is highly effective for financial goals in 14. That said I think it's important to understand the strengths and weaknesses of those that they have. When Nomura and Uematsu leave those are gonna be huge hits for the brand.
I only recently went ahead and played the classics after 20 years of only really knowing 7 onwards. I think there's no one true Final Fantasy formula. I don't care much for turn based random encounters, it was a method that made sense at the time but I don't think that ages well. I enjoyed 16 just as much as I enjoyed 8 back in the day. As long as they make captivating stories that make me want to explore the intricacies, it's a good game. FF14 brought millions of players into the FF franchise and has so many references to the old games as well as events to garner interest in the new games, but they absolutely dropped the ball by hyping FF16 that was unavailable and out of reach for most of the playerbase.
As someone that really enjoys the real time action final fantsy games, I think square enix should try to go back to traditional turn based for the mainline titles. Not just to appeal to the boomers, but so that they can make the games available on nintendo consoles. Putting the games day 1 on pc or xbox won't make a big difference, but having them on the switch would be massive. Kids nowadays don't have any concept of what final fantasy even - having new titles available on the switch would allow square to reach that demographic again. With the imminent reveal and release of the switch 2, it just seems like a no brainer at this point. It's speculated to be comparable to something between a base ps4 and ps4 pro, so it will be able to run good looking games. Hell, even the switch is capable of running good looking games with semi open worlds like shin megami tensei 5. Just make future games available on switch. Do keep making action game spin offs, but make the mainline series something that will run well on the switch
Im more interested of the demographic range of FF buyers in the last 10 years. Because that would help decide what type of FF to do next. The problem seems to me is younger gamers aren’t just interested while the old FF fans majority dont play video games anymore.
I would suggest for ff to just make AA games with mid graphics but packed full of fun sidequests and content. I dont think theyre pulling in new fans anyway so they might as well save money and keep the base happy. They can make them faster too that way.
very true. There's a few FF16 and rebirth die hards in these comments sections that swear these games are underappreciated but the sales have spoken. There's only like 5 ps5 exclusives but spiderman 2 has debunked any hope of claiming that ps5 exclusivity has kept SE from selling to mass audiences. It's the quality of these games holding them back and the sales are actually being bolstered by these "old head" fans that loved FF in the golden age and are hopelessly buying FF games on name recognition alone and being disappointed. It's one thing if the massive budget is somehow leading to amazing looking games but SE just doesn't have the coding talent and their games look ok at best and run horribly when the market is full of games like cyberpunk and horizon forbidden west.
Stopping exclusivity would help them ten fold. Lots of Xbox players I know who would play ff7r trilogy and ff16 if they would just release them on Xbox, myself included but I’m not also turning around and buying another overpriced console just to do it. I’ve already got an Xbox, I prefer the format, all my friends I’ve made are on Xbox…it’s literally not viable to need to drop another $500-700+ on a PlayStation especially if in another 2 years it’ll just be obsolete and they’ll be holding their hands out for more cash on another console…there’s no point..the point is people have what they have and don’t want to waste resources on something they’re only going to use for 60-120 hours. It makes no sense..not to mention when the new consoles come out, scalpers will be active and chumps like me will end up paying twice the base price just to get their hands on it for that next big title that they’re looking forward to
Ryu Ga Gotoko Studio and Falcom show how you can template environments and assets in order to focus on characters and story - this could be an enabler to more frequent releases. As for brand I agree but you need quality games and since FFx there really haven't been any good games from square-enix, they confuse sales with quality, just because they have sold off their brand name does not mean they have made a decent original game for over 20 years
You know i was a 4yo back in 1997 and we were just shitting ourselves over ff and those precious little block hands. Fast forward to 2024 almost 30 years later. How much better do graphics need to be? I still want good quality but if we slowed down the push to improve the consoles and just perfected the graphics we have now, games could go back to the days of yearly releases. At a fraction of the cost due to already having all the assets
These videos piss me off some sometimes. Square has come a long way since ff13 and ff15 in terms of making compelling stories. The company isn’t about to collapse both ff16 and ff7 didn’t bomb it maybe have gotten lower sales but this video just paints a picture that square is doing worse than it really it. They have gained a lot of grace from old and new fans alike
Im an hour in and I also wanted to say that word of mouth from us hardcore fans has been not great for the latest few games. I told all my friends who might be interested in ff16 that the combat was fun but the game never challenged me. I felt like I was walking through fights and basically I would challenge myself to not healing at all with potions. Felt more like watching a movie with intermittent button presses. Hard mode should of been in the first playthrough.
@@beldaras6787 I agree I would love to see them stick with the remake combat. It's fairly engaging. And a good direction for them to take the series imo
Jacob: "Just making FF turn based is not going to save the franchise. That's just not going to happen. It will make the base happier, but not broaden the audience." THANK YOU. Omg, yes. This guy gets it. I enjoy turn based, but simply shouting "mAkE iT tUrN bAsEd" is not solely going to fix everything. I'm sick of hearing this.
I do believe that final fantasy is going through an identity crisis. That being said I also don't own a ps5 and don't plan on getting one. I'm hoping that it ff7 remake and ff16 comes to the switch 2 so I can get them there
1:18:00 in game cutscenes are a must for Final Fantasy, whether turn base, or action RPG, the cinematic activity within combat signifies FF structure. You started in the early 2000s margin, so you may not know that evolutionary experience FFVII delivered in 97. The summons, the limit breaks, moves like Super Nova, or on VIII when Squall makes sure Rinoa doesn't fall off the side of Garden. At the time they were graphical leaps, and with Rebirth, it continues to be a graphical leap we FF Vets love. Don't tell Square-Enix to downgrade Final Fantasy, HELL NO!!! Final Fantasy needs more of an immersive structure to it. No more arcade type menus, no bootleg map structure, make the game difficult. No, FF is NOT Call of Duty, but Final Fantasy is like the first game to EVER do in game CGI. Am I wrong??? I was playing Final Fantasy since 1991-92...
Thank you so much for uploading this to youtube I tried watching it on Twitch but I cannot with the buffering 2hours in and I'm really enjoying the topics being discussed!
I feel bad for really not understanding why people say rebirth is a great game. this is the first “mainline” FF that I didn’t care to finish (had to power through ) and worse than that, I was completely bored. The way they handled the story; the personalities, the way the game feel bloated and convoluted really turned me off. Really wanted to love Rebirth, but for me it was a huge misstep and disappointment. on the flip side, ff16 for me, apart from wishing the combat was more complex and agree that some side quests are busy work, is a much more rounded FF game. FF Rebirth apart from the combat system, in my view they got everything wrong, the issue for me is much deeper. in case of FF16 they have a good base that could be expanded and improved.
Multiplatform could be beneficial as long as they actively avoid making the cam compatible with previous generations. Backwards compatibility must die.
I must say I just completely and fundamentally disagree with Jared on how the FF series should present itself. Even if you think the series is no longer in the highest echelon of presentation or stature within gaming, not striving to be there any longer is going to hurt its perception. No matter what they have to believe that they’re capable of being at the top to make the best games
I think they made the right decision getting rid of Eidos or their western division. They should pull a Disney tho and start acquiring og jrpgs and rpg companies or ips like the ones who owns shadow hearts, arc the lad, i think at one time they owned or at least distributed Disgaea i think disgaea 3. But there has to be an Arc the Lad for this generation. Final Fantasy, easy, make another Tactics. If I had resources I'd make a tactics short about FFX's past. Bevelle vs. Zanarkand. maybe a universe traveller was disrupting events that lead to a Warrior of Light being born. You have to stop that villain, by being the light force that takes control of the wars to keep the sacred timeline to produce a WoL. somewhere down the line they change tactics, you have to produce a warrior of darkness. You have to be the balancing force. the opposing force hops different FF universes but I would like to start with FFX. I know this sounds like it's gonna be a mobile game with gacha mechanics but if the story is good I wouldn't mind. But it's better if it's not a mobile game.
A little halfway through the video but the point about releasing remake as one game and being better is literally fantasy. If they were released remake as one game they were probably have to make it turn base scale back on a lot of things I will be surprised if that have released in that form if it got anything above a six out of 10. But even if it didn't the cells would have been maybe 1/3 of what it was and that wouldn't really help the brand so it wouldn't better to not make it at all if that's the case.😅
remake should have had the original story with expanded details and the new combat instead of splitting it into 3 games with a time paradox alternate future arbiter of Fate plot twist that nobody even likes but they wanted to force Zack and random fanservice in instead of bringing the original story to a modern game
After ff7r they should take a step back on production quality and maybe focus on putting out a lower graphical quality game with some new gameplay elements that they can explore a bit more freely without a new feature costing a ton of time and money cause of the level of quality. Dont get me wrong 16 nd 7r have been some of my favorite games but they are also not anywhere near costeffective and are truly just works of passion. Also stop releasing on only playstation lol
FF series failed because the story is... for the lack of better word, cringe these days. What is the main selling point of FF series? What is being praised the most when people talk about old FF games? It's the story. Recent FF games lacked good story, and when I say recent, I'm going all the way back to FF13. And way too often it has dialogue that gives you 2nd hand embarrasment. Like Snow and his "I am hero dialogues." As for all the people that left FF team, they didnt have much success either, but i do think they showed they had talent. Shadow Hearts series, Xeno series, Lost odyssey, Matsuno hasnt done much, but we all know his talent. Looking at those games, i see way more of the story quality i expected from FF games than the actual FF games. Basically, Square lost all the important talents to create a game with a good story.
I disagree resident evil 2 remake in resident evil 7 are not that different they are practically the same. It's resident evil 8 being able to do both first and third person in the same game without much of a issue.
How to save the Final Fantasy Franchise 1. Continue with the Main Numbered Titles 2. Stop Remake projects 3. Continue with Remasters that add game enhancement features
@@vivilover9409 agreed for remasters as its a 1:1 port with game enhancing features. The pixel remaster for 1-6 were awesome The Playstation Store version of Final Fantasy 7 was awesome as well although not advertised as a remaster it is actually the pc port that give you game enhancement features as well. 8 remaster was awesome Playstation store version of Final Fantasy 9 was just like ff7 without advertising game enhancement features it actually does. 10 and 10-2 Remasters were cool
@SILVERONIN I wish square could just get in contact with the modders and pay them a bunch of money for their textures and stuff, and release it as a update for the existing ff7. Or an optional dlc you can turn off. That would never happen but seeing companies embrace passionate fan projects would be nice
dont think the problem's with the objective quality of the games, more just because they take so long and cost so much to make. I mean sakaguchi's fantasian just took 2 yrs and was originally made for smart phones, so square could seriously learn from him again on how to make a quality cost efficient jrpg
I agree, Square needs to stop this belief that Final Fantasy is among the top of the video game market now. Because in reality they are definitely not.
As a whole (with all of their games) Final Fantasy is definitely among the most successful franchises and probably the second strongest among RPG’s behind Pokemon. But their present games are not doing the “overwhelming” numbers that they expect. Quick fix is to stop making them exclusive to PS5.
And speaking of PS5, they do need to tone down their expectations for their games performance on this console alone. PS5 exclusives are not doing as well as PS4, because there are still thousands of people who don’t own one yet. For example, Spider Man 1 and 2 are the best selling games on both PS4 and PS5 respectively, but Spider Man 2’s sales are like 10 Million less than the Spider Man 1.
I think Square-Enix's expectations were based on the PS4 sales of XV and VII Remake. I don't think they gave serious consideration to the lower install base of the PS5 or how divisive Remake actually was. There just weren't any real numbers to raise those questions. I think their estimates will be much more conservative going forward.
I'm really curious as to how this will affect XVII and Remake Part 3.
Maybe if they actually still made RPGs?
Well, ff16 has only sold like 300k on PC so far. Is ps5 exclusivity even really an issue? Most people are willing to buy a console if a game is good enough.
The series MUST be rebuilt, No sony guidelines, no make believe ethics committee (sony again lol) no BS. We want to see the original stories of the games we grew up with and are now playing with our children shown receiving the ROYAL Treatment! We want to see our childhood heroes in their original clothes without censorship changes, we want to see the playful witty banter and struggles between the group of friends that take on evil and save the world. We want to see sharp gameplay that build upon the systems that these games are based on. Remake, Rebirth, and the past 3 FF games have NOT done that.
Devs saying remaking a game 1 : 1 would be boring and not exciting is the most BS I ever heard in gaming world if not my entire life
what a bunch of out of touch arrogants
@@sariihover4798 its funny how that's always the first excuse when given to FF games and til this day we have a zero take on any game that did a full "1 to 1" and was hated for doing so. And before they* say the last of us, that doesn't count.
@@sariihover4798 Well said ! ! 👍
W three and a half hour conversation. Whatever direction Square decides to go, i hope these discussions never stop.
if theres the biggest take away from this: square needs a "new sakaguchi" type leader where s/he would take the lead from the front to define "what Final fantasy is" and every division would have to follow that person and definition. if anything, that position is almost akin to kevin feige of the mcu.
that person needs to be both knowledgeable in not only the creative side of things, business side of things but also the social aspect of things.
his/her obligation is to oversee everything from atop, in an almost "universe god" level.
s/he would not directly handle a division nor would s/he be building a game, this is to free him up from any of those obligations.
building games would be the division heads' obligation.
whoever would be on that position cant be someone that wants to be directly involved in a game, to avoid biasy towards a game that a division would be doing.
that person should be someone that really wants to be on that position and not just because everyone is saying that s/he should do it.
thats why nomura cant be the one. i would rather that he goes back to the drawing board for versus 13. that man needs his proper take on it. the community seems to still have high interest on versus 13 as well.. if they cant properly think of 17 or 18, then theres no lost in going back for versus 13. he also needs to pass of KH to the next lead director
.
cant be yoshiP as well. he is too bull-headed towards the things he likes to do. let him continue be the head of 14 then let him do titles like tactics and 16.
kitase is one of the better choices, but for me personally, i would rather be he a division head as well.. he is too much of a creative and would be a waste if he would not continue doing so. that is of course unless he wants to give up being a division head/game director and wants to be in the running for the "new sakaguchi" position.
if i may be bold, get tabata back.
for everything that happened, he was used an escape goat for a boat that was already sinking.
for whatever mess that happened, people are gravely underestimating how well he handled that hellfire.
im not saying that tabata should be the "new sakaguchi" but at the least count him in for running for the "new sakaguchi" position
as for the others, im sorry but my knowledge is too small to comment about who else can be on the running for the position.
i honestly would like to hear darryl's opinion about it.
i see FFUnion as the "historians" of final fantasy.
also, as much as the discussion got heated, i like how clark and jacob contradicted each other. i lean more towards jacob's take, but clark's contrasting opinion made it so that we also see holes on jacob's argument. and as heated as it got, that was a healthy part of the brainstorming.
kudos to ryan for being a great host.. people underestimate how hard it is to be a good host.
if anything, id like to have the same topic with different panel members to get more perspective on things.
for the "who is right then?" no one. on this kind of panel brainstorming you cant declare someone is right or someone is wrong.
thats the reason theres a need for a "new sakaguchi".
whatever s/he decides on is the course to take, regardless if its wrong or right
Great discussion with some really interesting points and counterpoints. Thoroughly enjoyed it, thanks!
To me, the most important point was that Square shouldn't try to be the "biggest and best", but rather focus on and solidify what the core of the mainline franchise is, or what they want it to be.
FF16 was overall enjoyable, but I'd have gladly traded a good chunk of the playtime and exaggerated icon fights with a tighter narrative and a world that is either smaller but worth exploring or simply linear.
I think iteration is important. They need to keep and make the new foundation for FF combat the FF7R system. However, I do also think that they should "reboot" the franchise with a "The Final Fantasy" type of rebranding. Maybe even a new name, if need be.
Less emphasis on realistic graphics, but rather artsyle, world building and narrative. Imo, what they should take from Western developers is making the worlds feel lived in with stories happening all over and side quests that are compelling. If they keep and iterate on the FF7R combat, then they can build on everything else.
Finally, they need to build a team that only focuses on FF, and use that team to cultivate new leaders and visionaries. That way some could cut their teeth on spinoffs, before coming back to the team they're familiar with when tasked with the next FF.
I like what they tried with Stranger of Paradise. They should do more of those with more focus on the story. Or at least one more with a prequel to FFX. Jecht is literally a Stranger of Paradise. Jecht Braska and Auron, and how they actually intended to end the cycle with them but they got betrayed by Kinoc. So they had no choice but to go through with Jecht being the Final Aeon. Then Auron DLC going after Yunalesca, Auron gets defeated, walks down Gagazet unsent, big revelation from Elder Ronso, the gagazet summit where all the fayths summoning zanarkand are if touched by unsent sends them to that dream zanarkand. Auron gets there, but it also explains how Jecht got to Spira, it's because of a Blitzball, how strong Jecht is connected to blitzball that when a ronso played blitzball and accidentally kicked the ball into the summit of fayths, when Jecht was training it transported him to Spira. or something else.
@@ReidusQuitzed Yeah, make Stranger of Paradise a series spinoff that acts as origins of the villains or worlds prior to the original games.
A Jecht, Auron and Braska prequel action game, maybe in the vein and scale of a Takes of Vesperia/Xillia by Team Ninja or Platinum Games could be amazing.
To reach the most people possible, they would have to ABANDON their identity! Character/party interaction in the context of an amazing story is what makes final fantasy unique. It makes games like Skyrim, Zelda, Witcher, Wu Kong, dark souls, all lonely in comparison. I prefer final fantasy over these games for that reason. Yet some people don’t care if they are the only person “saving the world” or even prefer it. But you can’t have both. I say they stick to what they’re with the content, and fix exclusivity. The identity crisis will only come if they take too much heed to fans wanting to pull them in every direction. Keeping their identity means saying no to certain people.
Final Fantasy, historically, has several qualities to it. Especially the first 6 ones.
- Linear, operatic (music playing an important role), cinematic (a grand story on an epic scale), story.
- Mechanics influenced by turn-based role-playing games. FF1 being the most influenced by D&D
- A magical medieval world discovering ancient technology, or, a contemporary sci-fi world using, discovering, or abusing ancient magic.
- A game where a cast of characters matters. Your "party". FF6 being the most ensemble cast.
- A large explorable open-world where going off the beaten path rewards you with a secret boss fight or a powerful legendary item.
It's not about being turn based or not. It's about allowing role-playing expression through combat mechanics instead of story choices. Example: the job system. In FF16, before the DLC, was there really a way to make Clive a "ranged" character? FF7, because of the materia system Cloud could be a caster, or a tank, or a pure melee DPS. As action packed as FF16 was, a lot of the combat systems felt underdeveloped and more fitting a spectacle fighter where you're playing as a character, instead of defining and ROLEPLAYING a character through combat. FF16 also failed at exploration. A lot of the things you "find" are usually worthless to you.
Do you mean Linear as in the story always goes the same way? Because if you mean map design as linear or hallway exploration then I have to disagree, while the general world technically was linear they made it feel and function like an open world and only towards the teen's mainline entries did they do linear hallway exploration.
@@James-u1y linear story. generally linear. despite some installments of FF where you have to the freedom to do events out of order, outcomes seldom branch.
I think you hit the nail on the head
final fantasy should take some inspiration from baldurs gate 3 tbh with an ensemble cast, class system where you can strategize each of their builds, the combat and how you explore the world and get to know its lore as you go.
1:54:34 The FF brand worked when it didn’t keep reinventing itself to be adaptive. Continuing to chase trends has created an identity crisis and is also heavily linked to these lengthy development cycles. This also really affects sales because the core audience can’t even promote the games anymore because we don’t even know what is going on. Again, Square really needs to get a plan for titles moving forward, restructure / restaff dev teams accordingly, clearly communicate + market this and stay the course despite initial tepid sales to see iterative improvement. Seriously, why would the old audience and any newcomer commit to a series that doesn’t commit to any consistent gameplay / narrative attributes?
Really loved this discussion.
i know you are more into the theory crafting side of things, but it would be cool to hear your thoughts about it too
I agree with the take that Square need to diversify their FF offerings.
I really think the combat presented in FF7 Remake and Rebirth is the way forward. I would make that the combat system of the mainline games.
I would then have a “Final Fantasy Classic” series that creates original FF games in the HD-2D style of Octopath Traveller, with evolutions of the basic turn based combat.
Then I would create a more action focused FF series that doubles down on FF16/DMC combat. With stylish, flashy, action combat that rewards good combinations of chained abilities. I would probably add Stranger of paradise itemisation into this series and boom, gold dust.
The mainline games can keep going big budget, aiming for 3-5 year development cycles. While the much cheaper and quicker to produce FF classics series could aim for 1-2 year dev cycles and then the action base series should aim for a 2-3 year dev cycle. If you split each series into specific business divisions and stagger their release, you could have a FF game every year or every other year and it wouldn’t feel like rushed stuff because your alternating the series, sort of like Monster hunter does
Imo a big factor to FF losing relevancy is a lack of style. FF looks like every single other big budget fantasy game out there nowadays. Partially because they pioneered that traditional high fantasy mixed with sci-fi aesthetic with FFVI-FFVIII, yes, but audiences have largely moved on and want something new and fresh. When I first saw the reveal trailer for FFXVI I could not believe how bland it looked. It looks like literally every other game on the market. There was not a second in that trailer that peaked my interest, and I was watching it as a fan of the franchise.
If the success of Persona 5 tells us anything it’s that a unique and interesting style can create a giant in the video game industry. Persona was a niche franchise prior to P5 blowing up, in fact Atlus as a developer was incredibly niche. They had their audience but never saw mainstream success. Now, they’re considered one of the greats exclusively because they dared to create something new, interesting, visually appealing and never before seen. Some story with Nier: Automata, Yoko Taro hadn’t made a single hit until Automata entered the scene and blew people away with its unique visual style and incredible thought-provoking story. Square needs to take that approach with FF if they want it to stand out from the crowd and be the *Next Big Thing*. Less focus on graphical fidelity, more focus on style and design. If every game allegedly has mindblowing graphics that just translates to every game looking the same.
I somewhat disagree with the premise that Final Fantasy as a brand needs to expand and grow going forward. Or rather I disagree that it should be important to traditional FF fans that it grow.
I liked the games, not the brand. I loved (let's say) 3-10 (+10-2). If the game is not at all like those games that I loved, I'm not interested. I don't really care whether it calls itself "Final Fantasy". Why is it important that the name/brand "Final Fantasy" succeeds if the games aren't the ones I want to play.
This is hands down my favorite Final Fantasy related discussion I ever watched - not any theory-crafting, not any ending discussion, no - it's THIS! The fact that I'm not even interested in any theories anymore is a testament to the subject of THIS discussion, cause SE managed to make me lose interest in that. I watched all 3 and a half hours of this and could honestly have watched double that. And I loved that I agreed with every single point that was made, that I kept nodding my head and was glad that all the points I've thought of myself in the past were brought up. And I think one of the reasons this was so good is that it had people who were ready to be /critical/ and not sugarcoat things.
SE has a big problem of being out of touch with modern young market, they're a case of old-school Japanese gentlemen doing things the old way and not appealing to the younger international market. The marketing and market research division is in the gutter. Why are they not researching, not taking advantage of popular characters and trends? Hell, why are they not checking out tiktok at least, there are local creators doing God's work attracting younger audiences in their stead. WHY is Tifa still not in Tekken, even after Harada commenting on how this is down to the devs? Why is Fortnite and omg ASTROBOT being fumbled so horrendously? It's the most out of touch 'boomer' thing ever (me being a millenial myself lol).
The development cycles and lengths are disastrous!
The marketing frankly sucks. Remake sold because OG sold it, and Rebirth DIDN'T sell as well because REMAKE didn't sell it, but everyone still wants to be in denial that Remake may have made the wrong decisions (some of them because devs weren't motivated to 'just' remake the game and I'm sorry, but we all do shit we don't like for work cause it's necessary lol), the changes alienated audiences, the 3-parter also did, despite my feelings about them these are facts. Now Rebirth, arguably the better game, is fighting for its life through word of mouth and critics to get the sales and good will back. But even here, with the parts that it did fumble (the final chapters), my good man Kitase comes out on stage and says that they are happy that fans are not happy with it and are angry afgjhgjsdfh, my man what are you saying? Now is not the time for that! Or how they intentionally cultivate the most toxic fanbase that just alienates new young streamers (bad move!) because they think the 'conversation' is cute lol
And let's not forget the disastrous Rebirth marketing that was only focused on Zack with his 5 min screentime and Aerith's will-she-won't-she death and bored everyone to death. Horrible decisions that won't attract any new fans and will bore old ones.
The anime was also such a good point! Nojima released an excellent prequel novel ToTP about Tifa and Aerith, why was THAT not an anime?? Just baffling decisions all around and no market research...
P.S. the only thing I will disagree about is how Hamaguchi being a huge FF7 fan means he wouldn't need supervision, because I can look around and name 5 self-proclaimed HUGE and long-time FF7 fans and 3 out of those 5 will be wrong about very important story points lol, I do not trust FF7 fans to know their own game ahjgfajfh
Enix doesn't realize kids want to play battle royal, gachas, and other live service stuff. Hack and Slash was popular in the 2000s on the PS2 with DMC and Ninja Gaiden. That style of gameplay is not trendy, It's more boomer gameplay that kids are not interested in. At the rate they are going, Final Fantasy 19 might be a battleroyal, after all the kids moved on and don't play them anymore.
It doesnt help that final fantasy 13, 15, and 16 have sloppy story telling. For a franchise that is heavily story based, theyve been missing the mark on newer titles. FF7 Rebirth is my GOTY but relies on the original as a template.
13 was filled with terminology vomit, 15 was spread too thin between different media (and shoulve been more contained in the game itself), and 16 lost momentum in the second half of the game (became repetitive without saying anything new and the ending was vague)
All 3 left a sour taste in my mouth and holds them back from leading the pack of JRPGs
if horizon can get remade 7 years after, square can take a crack at fixing 15s story. fabula nova crystallis project had a huge impact on the trajectory of ff
@@vivilover9409they’d have to do a lot of work. They’d have to integrate all the stories from all the anime, movies, etc. the.
@@moomanchu608 I think it would be worth it to try to recreate that vision whether it's versus xiii or a more complete xv
@@vivilover9409yea, there is a lot of potential
I was watching this when it was live! You guys did great! Very good discussion! Over the years, you've become very articulate with your words! Nice going!
They need to use 7 Rebirth as a core foundation for the series moving forward and build the brand based on a gameplay style like from soft has done with dark souls and elden ring. as good as 16 was, they have to stop changing battle mechanics so drastically every time. 13, 15, 7R and 16 all have radically different combat mechanics and expectations which for the average consumer creates confusion about the series.
Nah this is a terrible idea. Final fantasy was its best form with final fantasy 10. They need to go back to that formula. Its never going to be a massive hollywood blockbuster game.
Imagine if Tekken or Call of Duty had new control schemes every game. It would be bananas. It's not the battle system that Square needs to re-invent each time, it's the world and the art direction. Frankly those have been essentially frozen since 13.
@@TYbudgie and my thing is that 16 has a great action combat system. it's just in hindsight it would work better for a new IP or a nier game.
This. 1000 times THIS.
@@leighg9o I fundamentally disagree. FFX is my second favorite FF, but 7Remake’s gameplay is the future of the series.
I think FF13 and FF15 just did way to much damage to the series. People are sceptical now. I sure am. Especially after FF16
FF13 was the start of the troubles, but the 14 1.0, 15, 16, FF7 Remake and Rebirth had the series become a garbage fire. A garbage fire that wasn't contained, spread to the Square-Enix offices and now threatens to burn the whole company down. FF7 was a failure in sales but rebirth was a biblical failure. Then there is the reunion game that no one played. Thats insane.
@@justiceomally7434 I really liked FF7 Remake, but the original is a lot better. have not tried rebirth, waiting for PC version. Hate exclusives
@@justiceomally7434 As always, XIII haters are wrong and don't miss any opportunity to toss their vitriol.
VII was the beginning of the problems. The team members that got famous because of VII (specially Nomura) got the opportunity to make their own FF game, FFVIII, which is an awful game. But they kept rising in the company, influencing X-2, and the XIII trilogy. And even today, they keep doing their wacky nonsense in their sequels of FFVII
@@justiceomally7434 not really x-2 started it because ff games were not suppose to be sequels 11 was online only then 12 tried to be a mmo style rpg that plays itself, x-2 was the beginning of the decline 13 was when it hit rock bottom,
@@adthomp X-2 was popular with girls and boys at the time. It was not a failed sequel. FF 12 got revelant wings and 11 was the online game? never played it. but that's apples to oranges
This was amazing to listen to, would love more content like this discussing JRPGs
The two best gameplay styles were the turn based from FF10 and the action-turn based hybrid from the Remake trilogy. ATB works well in action but not in Turn based imo. If going forward they can make games building and improving on either of those styles of gameplay, then the games would sell well.
If they keep trying to innovate for the sake of chasing trends, like making FF16 because newer gamers can’t handle turn based, and then proceed to make the game lack RPG features, then Square will continue to suffer. BG3 doing as well as it did is proof that turn based still has appeal.
You guys should consider inviting Final fantasy peasant.Good to see fF union here
Final Fantasy Peasant would be a magical edition to the crew!
ff peasant for the W...yall remember dark kefka? He used to do good ff vids
Ever crisis should had been a switch game. The answer isn't MS but *Nintendo*
💡💯
I can't recall a single SquEnix title that they ever claimed "met expectations". When I hear that something didn't it's normal for them.
Unfortunately Square is a company full of very talented people and brilliant teams that are all constrained by terrible upper management. Other than the first CEO in the 80's saying "Yes Sakaguchi San, you can make Final Fantasy if you get enough volunteers to work on it", I can't think of a time that their executives added benefit.
FF new mainline series after 10: Budget has gone up, but quality were down
In my opinion, the root problem is Versus 13, which seems originally planned to be as a spin off series of FF. After the development hell, they are forced to push Versus 13 as 15.
Which means technically FF starting from 15 is a spin off from the original FF series and the original FF series ends with 13. What we know as FF series now is the series that originally would be the Versus series.
I love FF but I feel like the brand comes with too much baggage. Not sure what the solution to that is. Great discussion!
Return to the core of the series. An epic adventure, crystals, a doomed planet, airships, job system, loveable characters in the party that have real development and twists in their lives, a world that is exciting, terrifying, mysterious, whimsy and fun. A return to the heart of the franchise, from the Sakaguchi era. Stylist and different, I think having a bold art direction where the characters and the world look like a Yoshitaka Amano painting come to life - watercolors , hyper styalized, an art direction that moves with not just the visual aesthetic but the music as well, bring BOTH Soken and Uematsu back on for it, together.
We don’t need another hyper bloated budget AAA game with cutting edge graphics. We don’t need another generic hack and slash game with zero RPG elements. Bring back FF, back to its roots, and make it the most final fantasy-esque Final Fantasy yet.
Bravely Default is the new classic Final Fantasy you are looking for
As much as it pains me to admit this, Rebirth failed in spite of it's mostly positive reception, due to Square releasing several major titles within a brief period, and making it PS5 exclusive. Not to mention the market was saturated with high-budget RPGs from Square Enix, making it challenging for each game to stand out and achieve high sales. Still, it's surprising that the game remains unknown to many despite the numerous ongoing Let's Play series and discussions. It still irks me that games like Steller Blade are being nominated for GOTY, while Rebirth fail because of its stiff "competition", despite it arguably being a better game overall. Rebirth set a high bar with its rich storytelling and well-developed characters. Stellar Blade, while visually impressive and featuring mostly solid gameplay mechanics, didn't resonate strongly with some players in terms of narrative depth and character development. Rebirth was an exceptional game and warrants far better treatment than this, though it's undeniable that Square has made too many missteps, which is such an unfortunate reversal of fortune.
Also your building point is strong the first Assassins creed was not the game that the Ezio trilogy became - if Metaphor Fantazio is a big hit it will be because of the Persona and SMT games that went before. If SE want to do a turn based FF better than Metaphor or BG3 they will fail because they need to innovate off a track record their teams don't have anymore - so the future is bleak
"7 Remake is closer to 16 than Code Veronica is to Resident Evil 1"
Guy I don't think you played Code Veronica. That game is straight up just a classic RE game with what was, at the time, more up to date mechanics. It even uses by and large the same menus as the previous 3 games. This was an interesting discussion to hear but this guy had a lot of weird takes like this that make me disagree with what he has to say more often than not.
They basically built different types of audiences over the years but the games they keep churning out cant cater to them all and at the same time they try to get new ones which adds more to the mix.
While typing this, I am only into the video about 50 minutes. So far, I haven't heard a point brought up yet that I really expected to hear. And that is that many people who were hyped for ff7 remake lost interest in the remake trilogy entirely as soon as they figured out that it wasn't actually a remake. Don't get me wrong, I liked the game, even as a huge fan of the original, which I played when it was new. But the way they blew their load by revealing sephiroth basically at the beginning of the game and continued to do so throughout the rest of the game, the introduction of what essentially look like dementors from Harry potter, some of the unnecessary padding, the way they handled the death of president Shinra vs how it was handled in the original, how they recreated the end of the original game with the standoff between cloud and sephiroth from the og game, and the other various ways that they changed certain things that clearly sent the message that this was not really a "remake" of ff7, did turn off alot of people. The games demo caused people to believe that they were literally getting Final Fantasy 7, in all it's original glory, with updated graphics and gameplay. Then, as soon as you are done with that demo portion in the full game, you are slapped in the face with the painful reality that you are definitely not getting that. I personally am still interested in how this trilogy plays out, but I completely understand why it seems a lot of people who ran out and bought FF7 remake did not show up for rebirth. It seems obvious. Of course, I understand that this video is a discussion about the final fantasy series as a whole. I just felt like the fact that many people who are older players were not happy with the story direction of FF7 remake didn't really get brought up.
I think a very important point is that the executuves have REALISTIC sales expectations, because no matter how good the games the guys at the top will dismiss them by saying "the sales were not enough".
@@Dracobyte Right. Like they need to consider that not everyone in the world has a PS5. And because of that, PS5 exclusives are not doing as well as PS4. I mean look at the sales difference between Spider Man 1 and 2
According to many analysts, the sales expectations WERE reasonable and simply not met here. Jacob also brings up this point as well. This was not the case here, we're looking at an actual shrinkage of sales in the series.
You have no idea how expensive these games are to make. The reason why the sales need to be this high is just to recoup development costs. It is a baseline that needs to be met.
Mostly the sales expectations were to ensure they had enough to cover for blunders like NFT, Metaverse, Forspoken, and other trash investments. I'm glad the sales didn't meet expectations as that would have them focus on ridding themselves of trash investments and put more care into current games and bringing back old franchises to produce profits and sales. Also ensuring games are multi platform ensures higher sales.
5.5million copies sold wouldn't break even at 300million budget. Developers don't get anywhere near the 60-70 dollar price tag of these games. Most developers get 12-18, and if they self publish they might get 30+USD, but they will still have to eat the cost of printing the bluerays/shipping ect ect. So when you look at the estimated cost of 140million for ff7remake, and then estimate what Rebirth costs, not counting marketing. You then have do the math starting well below full price per copy, and oftentimes no matter how generous you are with the amount you estimate they realistically get per copy, they will fall short. Steam and Sony will take a cut just to be on their ecosystem, so unless you're first party studio you will have a even harder time breaking even.
Imo there should be at least 4 teams. One to do ff14 of course. One to make an action ff. One to make a turn based one. And a team to make whatever else. Whether its a pixel game like ff1-6, a tactics game, a spinoff or whatever. And this is just for ff. The pixel games can help get titles out to be made cheaper but also have more frequent releases in between the bigger games.
I have a question for all the SE apologists? If SE really wants a big mainstream hit, why is devil may cry the model and not elden ring? Dmc...even the best selling entry in the series... doesn't sell more than dragon quest. SE is scared of elden ring because they know they'll ever produce a game so deep and detailed.
I am personally tired of all the soulslike games, elden ring is an instant classic for sure, but I didn't get black myth wukong for that very reason even if it is a great game
This is sort of addressed in the video. When FF16 went into production DMC was kinda big and so was Game of Thrones. Hence the blueprint was FF with DMC combat and GoT story. The issues is that by the time the game came out GoT had soured for a lot of people and DMC was old news. It’s the issue of trends changing too fast for game development cycles.
@somethang9264 well, I personally haven't played much of elden ring but....24 million other people sure have. And the combat isn't the thing to copy from elden ring, it's the expansive open world and detailed lived in feel. I'm just trying to address the fact that final fantasy isn't selling and how to make it sell.
@alanlee67 yea, i get that, imo though they need to stop focusing on putting out mega hits. Capcom and fromsoft have been doing very well with manageable outlook on sales. They really just need to work on games that are fun to play and it will pay off
I personally think final fantasy 16 would have done a lot better if they kept certain RPG elements in but going even farther into the devil may cry type gameplay. As a fan of DMC 16 is really just a worst version of that That's why they should have done enough to make it stand apart while keeping some of the identity of final fantasy.
I think the Retrilogy wouldn't exist without exclusivity, without that Sony check.
FFXVI needed a slightly tighter plot, actual side quest design, and some extra layer to the combat(elemental weaknesses/status effects), and possibly an actual town(rebuilding Rosaria after Titan's attack would have been huge, for example)
FFVII Rebirth needed to not be a requel to the original FFVII and instead just retell the original story as it was rather than doing this Sephiroth/Aerith with knowledge of the future plot that has been enjoyable to longtime fans, but completely alienated newcomers who should just be enjoying the plot without asking thousands of questions and wondering if they need to play the original game.
I really think those changes/additions, day one on PC, and some better marketing-would have seen both these games hit 5-10+ million in sales by now.
OH, and just adding in, the naming conventions of the Remake trilogy are idiotic. Especially when, between the releases of Remake and Rebirth, they released a prequel set before the events of the original FFVII, that was named Final Fantasy VII Reunion. The Remake trilogy should have stuck with Remake as the name, and done Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3 for the tagline of each entry. But SE's business/marketing department is actually moronic, and cannot make a smart decision to save their life.
vii remakes should have been what ever crisis is but they relegated that project to a cheap episodic mobile game for no reason
Bring Sakaguchi back... Though he more than likely wouldn't want to lol. But definitely stop catering to the West, the West is a mess right now stuck on dumb ideology that ruins and destroys art.
I really liked most of this podcast - it's always great to see Jacob on your show - but the way that XVI was only brought up occasionally as an example of a wild divergence from the norm did make me feel like I was losing my mind. By all accounts, Rebirth was the one that undershot expectations, not XVI, and that was the game that took most of your suggestions to heart: a faster development cycle, iterating on the team's past gameplay systems, sticking to what was "iconic" about the IP. XVI reviewed well, met sales expectations, and it sounds like the team has turned right over into working on their next big thing. What am I missing, here? It feels like the fanbase's mixed response to the pacing and the last act has gotten blown out of proportion into this imagined brand-crisis failure. I vastly preferred Rebirth, but it feels like the only lesson that they'd really need to learn from that is that the sequel to a Half-Life 3-level impossible game is probably going to sell worse.
@@sagewaterdragon I would not call XVI’s development fast-it began back in late 2015 after the completion of the Heavensward. XVI took 8 years. Rebirth, having the benefit of being a direct sequel and using an established engine took 3.
The only thing that XVI iterated on from cbu3’s past is questing structure of XIV, which I think is undeniably the worst part. Maybe the concept of a global cool down but thats it.
XVI also did not meet expectations and neither did rebirth. XVI sold well at launch but had a weak tail. This is we haven’t gotten an update since the first week sales of 3m. It’s probably only bare moved to 4 and still under 5. Thats a huge drop off from 7R1 and a bigger drop off from XV for both of them.
@@TheNightSkyPrince Sorry, there was a misunderstanding. I meant that VII Rebirth had a shorter development cycle and was iterative, not XVI. My point was that the game that was moving in the right direction (Rebirth) was doing even worse than the one that went against everything you all were advocating for (XVI) in a way that I think would've been interesting to talk about. That said, maybe XVI has undershot expectations as well - at launch they said it was meeting them, but we haven't heard an update since. I imagine they'll talk about the "18 month plan" when it's all said and done.
@@sagewaterdragon OOOH. I’m sorry I misunderstood.
Well, the biggest problem with Rebirth selling is two things:
1) a direct sequel to a Remake with a controversial story
2) Little to no marketing.
Tremendously more marketing dollars were poured into XVI. A much more accessible that had no prior game to be a barrier to entry.
With XVI the demo’s virality probably change the course of its destination. Prior to the demo, XVI’s hype was non existent. Anecdotally, prior to that very exciting demo, XVI had been the lowest FF performing title in terms of viewership ever.
The marketing for XVI was there. The launch party for it with all the FF content creators invited to it, the live action commercial.
Of course XVI sold more.. it would kind of be pitiful if it didn’t lol. But I think that Rebirth just had too many external challenges to overcome
@@TheNightSkyPrince That all makes sense. I suppose I'm just underestimating the marketing spend on XVI, or overestimating Rebirth's. You'd have a much better sense of the buzz around the titles.
Here is my honest take:
It would be wise of Square to listen to the fans. HOWEVER, they should keep most of XVI's assets and use them for the next title. Starting anew would only drag them down.
Not only that. But i'd use the current state of the fan base as the core principle behind the next game storyline.
'The Crystals are long dead. The world is at its last breath. Should we keep trying to save it by restoring the crystals or should we fasten its downfall to call upon a new beginning? What would the warriors of light do?'
Essentially FF5, but darker. With the player being responsible to assemble a party for their quest.
And PLEASE! Bring back the trifecta of waifus. I mean it! 😭
Randomly clicked on this video on my recommended, but great discussion here. Subbed!
1. Try lower expectations, SE expectations are very often just to high
2. Maybe advertise your lesser known games better
3a) Stop chasing trends and try something new once in a while (maybe 1 out of 5 projects is actually experimental)
3b) Maybe give some of your employees 5 to 10% time for working on their own ideas and once in a while let them present, hell they can even work in groups
3c) Call it Square Enix idea factory and if those employees can make a concept or even a small demo out of their idea, make it available to your customers to see, if there might be interest.
It does not have to be a full demo, maybe some time of gameplay mechanic, battle system, graphical designs.
I want my gambit system. Still playing 12 my favorite combat system of all time. The fighting animations and the gambits are the best and I want to see iterations on that.
In a nutshell, FF these days lack DEPTH. Combats dumbed down, storys dumbed down, difficulty dumbed down, gameplay dumbed down. FF7R only had like 5 different weapons. You cant miss anything anymore. The reason new users dont get it is because the games are just bad and the only people that get it are us, the suckers that Square milks to oblivion
The worst right now are their stories, they are a complete mess. This is a major issue as most people are drawn to rpg's because of the storytelling and characters.
@@franciscor390 i dont get how their games have gotten so much worse in 20 years
Combat and difficulty dumbed down - really? Rebirth's post-game was pretty brutal, but even if you didn't find it hard, it's still harder than literally any other mainline FF.
I agree about the story and story telling - I'm still a bit sour about how they handled Dyne - but I wouldn't say other elements have been dumbed down at all.
They should take some inspiration from Baldurs gate 3.
To save final fantasy, square enix need to move away from trying to be a mainstream action game. Go back to final fantasy x style and focus on telling a good story rather than massive set pieces and hollywood crap.
Huh?
Biggest problem witht his is that there's so much more competition now. Telling a good story is not enough. There's a lot of games now that have great stories
@@Xcyper33 It's more likely the opposite, because it's hard for developers to tell good stories now when they are more concerned with assassin's creed towers, fetch quests, collectables, which slows pacing of their stories to a crawl. Most often than not storytelling is put on the backseat in the modern day, making them lower quality as a whole
A FF action game actually works! The 40+ fan man childs are complaining about the gameplay because of the turn base nostalgia.
This right here will destroy the series. If you only care about good stories then read a book (providing that you can actually read) or watch a movie. These are VIDEO GAMES, and the most important aspect is how you balance story AND gameplay. They're both equally important.
Put them on xbox and pc at launch
And switch 2 if possible. Put it on everything that can run it! No more exclusivity, end of discussion!
It's not about total sales, it's about not being expectations. I'd it didn't meet expectations on PlayStation they won't meet expectations multiplatform either.
It's a deeper problem with FF not resonating liked it used to despite making the best games since the PS2 era.
@@Ladiesman-js3kt Expectations are different than actually being profitable. I could see FF7 Rebirth and FF16 being profitable, but not meeting the expectations of Square Enix on how profitable it would be. Big thing is Square Enix needs to learn to reign in those expectations and make them more realistic.
@@urazz7739 That's what I'm saying, even if the games are multiplatform, they still won't meet expectations.
@@Ladiesman-js3kt It's hard for them to make the best games possible when they keep flipping the non existent formula and teams have to always start from scratch. The games lack identity. And as much as I love the remake games, that combat system is way too complex for the average player to pick up and get as opposed to a simple atb based combat system or what they had in 15 (tho I don't personally think 15 had a good combat system at all, it had potential for growth).
I think it would help if they scale back and focus on what made the older games great and really stick to an identity. Despite the leveling system changing each game, all the old games shared the same combat (turn-based), fantastic and compellingly deep storylines, fun and plentiful side quests, and a certain charm that they haven't been able to replicate since then (imo).
I think what hurt Rebirth's sales was that it's FF7R is multi-game. I would rather have waited for a great single game than have three games where I have to wait years in between each one.
I think if they really want to experiment so heavily with each title, they should move away from the FF brand and start a new one.
I commented before I finished watching the entire video (more than halfway before), but I just finished and wanted to add that this was a fantastic discussion.
how to save FF? easy. make a great FF game that is a JRPG not a weak action game with horrible MMO style quest hubs.
50:58 That's key, brother. You are totally right, and we have two very successful games to prove it: Stellar Blade and BM: Wukong.
Those two games are closer to be a soulslike than to be a DMC -like game. Nier Replicant and Automata have more of that classic hack n' slash gameplay, but what happened? Souls games became extremely popular and their sales are huge, that's why so many indie and AA studios make games in the souls like genre instead of the normal hack n' slah.
I'd say that, yes, if FFXVI would've been a souls like in some degree, it would've been better received. Specially because the souls like genre allows RPG progression and customisation better than the dmc style.
Persona 5 surpassed 10 million with base + royal across multiplatform. Remake did 5million on PS4, and intergrade 2million on ps5+PC. Rebirth sales dropped by half, like most Final Fantasy sequels. It's safe to assume PC version of Rebirth would also drop off by half from Remake PC version. Enix can't be bothered doing DMC for one team (ff14 cash cow team), kingdom hearts style action RPG for another team, and turn based for a yet another team. FF16 and Rebirth are presenting huge issues for them, throwing more crap at the wall and hoping it sticks is how they got here in the first place. The only viable method of profits they have now is the MMO, and they haven't done a turn based FF in over 20 years, so not sure why he even brought that up. FF14 is all they have left, it's the last place their old audience is hanging on to, and ff16 had negative effects on the FF14 team, and we see the issues the lack of focus and resources taken away from the MMO is causing now. Enix needs to stop starving the FF14 team by taking away it's resources and talent, or they end up in a much worse spot than they are now.
Not to be a boomer... but maybe make the RPG an RPG and see what happens. I have a hard time believing that RPGs can't be successful given the last 10 years - plenty of other games have been the pinnacle of releases their year. FF is a trend follower at this point and they're embarassed of their own legacy - you can tell when something is inauthentic and trying to be cool/chasing trends.
If FF were really doing nothing but chasing trends then 16 would be a Soulsborne game and not a Character action game, so I really would like to know what you’re referring to when you say that
@@devilmandiavolo2876 What i'm referring to is its trash.
12:00 "it's not that the shareholders wanted to make more money, it's because they wanted to get a better return on their investment than if they had just put their cash in a mutual fund instead" - that's a longer way of saying "they wanted to make more money" lol
What are they referring to when they say “PT” not sure if I’m hearing that correctly
I think an important side note 1:44:00 is that FFXI was an MMO made with Sakaguchi's clear vision, and FFXII plays almost exactly like it. It really is a sort of turn based MMO in the same way 12 still kinda is, you just can't pause time. Compare that with What Yoshi P. has made with FFXIV and FFXVI and he doesn't have a clear vision. FFXIV copied WOW and barely have any jrpg mechanics left. FFXVI copied DMC and doesn't have any real jrpg mechanics. I mean go read the interviews on the FFXI website, he clearly stated that though he respected what SE had made he was always a fan of hack and slash, and what blizzard was doing with games like diablo. He even said that he NEVER tried playing FFXI though now he's in charge of it 😂.
My point with this is that I think it's okay to have different visions at the company but man when your ideas aren't even in the same genre then maybe a mainline game shouldn't be assigned to you. Now that said, it worked for FFXIV because that's where most MMO's are now, but FFXVI should have been FF Adventure or Adventure 2.
Exactly, YoshiP has no clue and just a copy king. He only knows how to create dumbed down games
And guess what, even ff14 is starting to fail now when people are sick of boring stats progression, itemisation and homogenisation of skills and jobs, plus repetitive side quests.
He’s a clueless guy that got lucky, people need to stop worshipping that guy and bring him down to earth.
@tinyblackmage I mean the one thing I can say is that he is a great manager and I think he brings value to SE for that purpose, he just shouldn't be making creative decisions.
@@Ephremjlm1 In theory yes, but we’ve all seen how he even as producer only has influenced the creative direction. He’s well known to be a micro manager and there are rumours that some couldn’t stand working with him
Maybe he can put as non-executive producer, forbidding any voice from him on creative decisions
@tinyblackmage yeah idk about how it is to work for him but I imagine probably isn't easy as he is highly effective for financial goals in 14. That said I think it's important to understand the strengths and weaknesses of those that they have. When Nomura and Uematsu leave those are gonna be huge hits for the brand.
I only recently went ahead and played the classics after 20 years of only really knowing 7 onwards. I think there's no one true Final Fantasy formula. I don't care much for turn based random encounters, it was a method that made sense at the time but I don't think that ages well. I enjoyed 16 just as much as I enjoyed 8 back in the day. As long as they make captivating stories that make me want to explore the intricacies, it's a good game.
FF14 brought millions of players into the FF franchise and has so many references to the old games as well as events to garner interest in the new games, but they absolutely dropped the ball by hyping FF16 that was unavailable and out of reach for most of the playerbase.
As someone that really enjoys the real time action final fantsy games, I think square enix should try to go back to traditional turn based for the mainline titles. Not just to appeal to the boomers, but so that they can make the games available on nintendo consoles. Putting the games day 1 on pc or xbox won't make a big difference, but having them on the switch would be massive.
Kids nowadays don't have any concept of what final fantasy even - having new titles available on the switch would allow square to reach that demographic again.
With the imminent reveal and release of the switch 2, it just seems like a no brainer at this point. It's speculated to be comparable to something between a base ps4 and ps4 pro, so it will be able to run good looking games. Hell, even the switch is capable of running good looking games with semi open worlds like shin megami tensei 5.
Just make future games available on switch. Do keep making action game spin offs, but make the mainline series something that will run well on the switch
Final Fantasy The Spirits Within The Video Game
Nah we good
2:44:42 ff7r is spot on for innovation within the series
Im more interested of the demographic range of FF buyers in the last 10 years. Because that would help decide what type of FF to do next. The problem seems to me is younger gamers aren’t just interested while the old FF fans majority dont play video games anymore.
I would suggest for ff to just make AA games with mid graphics but packed full of fun sidequests and content. I dont think theyre pulling in new fans anyway so they might as well save money and keep the base happy. They can make them faster too that way.
very true. There's a few FF16 and rebirth die hards in these comments sections that swear these games are underappreciated but the sales have spoken. There's only like 5 ps5 exclusives but spiderman 2 has debunked any hope of claiming that ps5 exclusivity has kept SE from selling to mass audiences. It's the quality of these games holding them back and the sales are actually being bolstered by these "old head" fans that loved FF in the golden age and are hopelessly buying FF games on name recognition alone and being disappointed. It's one thing if the massive budget is somehow leading to amazing looking games but SE just doesn't have the coding talent and their games look ok at best and run horribly when the market is full of games like cyberpunk and horizon forbidden west.
@SILVERONIN ive played a 2.5 D game star ocean 2..those 2.5 d games are so good
Stopping exclusivity would help them ten fold. Lots of Xbox players I know who would play ff7r trilogy and ff16 if they would just release them on Xbox, myself included but I’m not also turning around and buying another overpriced console just to do it. I’ve already got an Xbox, I prefer the format, all my friends I’ve made are on Xbox…it’s literally not viable to need to drop another $500-700+ on a PlayStation especially if in another 2 years it’ll just be obsolete and they’ll be holding their hands out for more cash on another console…there’s no point..the point is people have what they have and don’t want to waste resources on something they’re only going to use for 60-120 hours. It makes no sense..not to mention when the new consoles come out, scalpers will be active and chumps like me will end up paying twice the base price just to get their hands on it for that next big title that they’re looking forward to
This was a great talk 😊
16 was their chance, but they did'nt go all the way. They fell back into killing god and magic fixes everything.
Ryu Ga Gotoko Studio and Falcom show how you can template environments and assets in order to focus on characters and story - this could be an enabler to more frequent releases. As for brand I agree but you need quality games and since FFx there really haven't been any good games from square-enix, they confuse sales with quality, just because they have sold off their brand name does not mean they have made a decent original game for over 20 years
You know i was a 4yo back in 1997 and we were just shitting ourselves over ff and those precious little block hands. Fast forward to 2024 almost 30 years later. How much better do graphics need to be? I still want good quality but if we slowed down the push to improve the consoles and just perfected the graphics we have now, games could go back to the days of yearly releases. At a fraction of the cost due to already having all the assets
These videos piss me off some sometimes. Square has come a long way since ff13 and ff15 in terms of making compelling stories. The company isn’t about to collapse both ff16 and ff7 didn’t bomb it maybe have gotten lower sales but this video just paints a picture that square is doing worse than it really it. They have gained a lot of grace from old and new fans alike
Why did frustrated Jacob stop making videos?
Im an hour in and I also wanted to say that word of mouth from us hardcore fans has been not great for the latest few games. I told all my friends who might be interested in ff16 that the combat was fun but the game never challenged me. I felt like I was walking through fights and basically I would challenge myself to not healing at all with potions. Felt more like watching a movie with intermittent button presses. Hard mode should of been in the first playthrough.
Tbf outside of a few fights in ff games none of them have challenged me in any significant way outside of tactics. They are jrpgs afterall
@@shadowsenpai2395 ff7 remake and rebirth at least have fights that I have to strategize and maybe try more than once.
@@beldaras6787 I agree I would love to see them stick with the remake combat. It's fairly engaging. And a good direction for them to take the series imo
Great discussion although I think the doomerism in the community is getting tiring.
At this point all we can do is look forward to ff 17
Jacob: "Just making FF turn based is not going to save the franchise. That's just not going to happen. It will make the base happier, but not broaden the audience."
THANK YOU. Omg, yes. This guy gets it. I enjoy turn based, but simply shouting "mAkE iT tUrN bAsEd" is not solely going to fix everything. I'm sick of hearing this.
How to save FF? MAKE FINAL FANTASY GAMES! CONSISTENTLY!
Its hard to predict trends because of longer dev cicles, sure, but they should'nt be chasing trends to begin with.
ever crisis being a free mobile game instead of an actual game is annoying
I do believe that final fantasy is going through an identity crisis. That being said I also don't own a ps5 and don't plan on getting one. I'm hoping that it ff7 remake and ff16 comes to the switch 2 so I can get them there
Dang. I wish there were time stamps.
Now you say final fantasy is bad…I have been saying that since Final Fantasy X-2 but what made it 100% clear was Final Fantasy XIII
Give us ff12-2 with the gambit system!
Oh god no
1:18:00 in game cutscenes are a must for Final Fantasy, whether turn base, or action RPG, the cinematic activity within combat signifies FF structure. You started in the early 2000s margin, so you may not know that evolutionary experience FFVII delivered in 97. The summons, the limit breaks, moves like Super Nova, or on VIII when Squall makes sure Rinoa doesn't fall off the side of Garden. At the time they were graphical leaps, and with Rebirth, it continues to be a graphical leap we FF Vets love. Don't tell Square-Enix to downgrade Final Fantasy, HELL NO!!! Final Fantasy needs more of an immersive structure to it. No more arcade type menus, no bootleg map structure, make the game difficult. No, FF is NOT Call of Duty, but Final Fantasy is like the first game to EVER do in game CGI. Am I wrong??? I was playing Final Fantasy since 1991-92...
100% agree that the problem lies with mismanaged budgets - production and marketing
Thank you so much for uploading this to youtube I tried watching it on Twitch but I cannot with the buffering
2hours in and I'm really enjoying the topics being discussed!
This a repost?
Yes this is the edited version of the VOD
@@TheNightSkyPrince oh
I feel bad for really not understanding why people say rebirth is a great game.
this is the first “mainline” FF that I didn’t care to finish (had to power through ) and worse than that, I was completely bored. The way they handled the story; the personalities, the way the game feel bloated and convoluted really turned me off.
Really wanted to love Rebirth, but for me it was a huge misstep and disappointment.
on the flip side, ff16 for me, apart from wishing the combat was more complex and agree that some side quests are busy work, is a much more rounded FF game.
FF Rebirth apart from the combat system, in my view they got everything wrong, the issue for me is much deeper.
in case of FF16 they have a good base that could be expanded and improved.
Agreed, Rebirth was a mess and easily the biggest disappointment from Square - it has left me pretty much ready to abandon Square games entirely
Multiplatform could be beneficial as long as they actively avoid making the cam compatible with previous generations. Backwards compatibility must die.
I must say I just completely and fundamentally disagree with Jared on how the FF series should present itself. Even if you think the series is no longer in the highest echelon of presentation or stature within gaming, not striving to be there any longer is going to hurt its perception. No matter what they have to believe that they’re capable of being at the top to make the best games
I think they made the right decision getting rid of Eidos or their western division. They should pull a Disney tho and start acquiring og jrpgs and rpg companies or ips like the ones who owns shadow hearts, arc the lad, i think at one time they owned or at least distributed Disgaea i think disgaea 3. But there has to be an Arc the Lad for this generation. Final Fantasy, easy, make another Tactics. If I had resources I'd make a tactics short about FFX's past. Bevelle vs. Zanarkand. maybe a universe traveller was disrupting events that lead to a Warrior of Light being born. You have to stop that villain, by being the light force that takes control of the wars to keep the sacred timeline to produce a WoL. somewhere down the line they change tactics, you have to produce a warrior of darkness. You have to be the balancing force. the opposing force hops different FF universes but I would like to start with FFX. I know this sounds like it's gonna be a mobile game with gacha mechanics but if the story is good I wouldn't mind. But it's better if it's not a mobile game.
A little halfway through the video but the point about releasing remake as one game and being better is literally fantasy. If they were released remake as one game they were probably have to make it turn base scale back on a lot of things I will be surprised if that have released in that form if it got anything above a six out of 10. But even if it didn't the cells would have been maybe 1/3 of what it was and that wouldn't really help the brand so it wouldn't better to not make it at all if that's the case.😅
remake should have had the original story with expanded details and the new combat instead of splitting it into 3 games with a time paradox alternate future arbiter of Fate plot twist that nobody even likes but they wanted to force Zack and random fanservice in instead of bringing the original story to a modern game
Re-upload?
yes, the Edited version
After ff7r they should take a step back on production quality and maybe focus on putting out a lower graphical quality game with some new gameplay elements that they can explore a bit more freely without a new feature costing a ton of time and money cause of the level of quality. Dont get me wrong 16 nd 7r have been some of my favorite games but they are also not anywhere near costeffective and are truly just works of passion. Also stop releasing on only playstation lol
Also Dissidia should remain Dissidia. Juts put the DMC combat director on the game game and work from there.
I hated FFXV so much I swore I wouldn't buy another FF. FF16 just looked too good. Even if didn't ended up being the masterpiece I hoped.
Yo the dream team!! :)
Final Fantasy started going down with 12 IMO. 13, 15, and 16 were just more turds in the punch bowl.
Atleast 7 Rebirth was badass.
FF series failed because the story is... for the lack of better word, cringe these days.
What is the main selling point of FF series? What is being praised the most when people talk about old FF games? It's the story.
Recent FF games lacked good story, and when I say recent, I'm going all the way back to FF13.
And way too often it has dialogue that gives you 2nd hand embarrasment. Like Snow and his "I am hero dialogues."
As for all the people that left FF team, they didnt have much success either, but i do think they showed they had talent.
Shadow Hearts series, Xeno series, Lost odyssey, Matsuno hasnt done much, but we all know his talent.
Looking at those games, i see way more of the story quality i expected from FF games than the actual FF games.
Basically, Square lost all the important talents to create a game with a good story.
I disagree resident evil 2 remake in resident evil 7 are not that different they are practically the same. It's resident evil 8 being able to do both first and third person in the same game without much of a issue.
How to save the Final Fantasy Franchise
1. Continue with the Main Numbered Titles
2. Stop Remake projects
3. Continue with Remasters that add game enhancement features
13 series should get a modern port or remaster for switch 2
@@vivilover9409 agreed for remasters as its a 1:1 port with game enhancing features.
The pixel remaster for 1-6 were awesome
The Playstation Store version of Final Fantasy 7 was awesome as well although not advertised as a remaster it is actually the pc port that give you game enhancement features as well.
8 remaster was awesome
Playstation store version of Final Fantasy 9 was just like ff7 without advertising game enhancement features it actually does.
10 and 10-2 Remasters were cool
@SILVERONIN I wish square could just get in contact with the modders and pay them a bunch of money for their textures and stuff, and release it as a update for the existing ff7. Or an optional dlc you can turn off. That would never happen but seeing companies embrace passionate fan projects would be nice