@@rob6850 Yeah, that is weird. From what I have seen via internet evidence lockers is that most criminals have a mix of FMJ and mixed and corroded HP ammo, so being expensive ammo I would guess it's not a true criminal leaving it.
These "unique" bullets are interesting, but HST and Critical Duty are just super consistent and preform so well it’s just not even worth playing around with "unique" bullets. IMO. Your efforts are very much appreciated too.
HST still seems to be the best. It seems in any product there are truth , lies, and in between. You proved the lies of the lable on this ammo. Thanks and have a great night 🌙
Great video as always. You and Paul Harrell produce the best ammo analysis on RUclips. Can you test the IMI 124 gr. +P Di-Cut HP if you get a chance? I've seen a bunch of tests with the standard pressure 115 gr HP and it performs very poorly with little to no expansion. Maybe the +P would actually expand.
I'm old-school; Hydra-Shok my carry ammo but you make sense of these other carry round options with solid "real world" testing. Thanks for the great video!
Thanks. It's taken a good 10 years to really get the range what it is, I mean in the sense that before I went out there weekly there was a lot of plant growth. Now it's bare from always walking on it.
I watched the whole video but as soon as you mentioned the comparison the HST I knew what would win. The Underwood at least does a lot of damage for a few inches, the Norma flat out sucks. BTW watch your step @10:24😂 I do that all the time, I'm amazed that I've only faceplanted a couple times in my 43 years.
which of these are low flash??,,and "Dutch" loading of a mag ,one round fmj and next is jhp,is used in winter time, so at least one round will penetrate to the vitals.after a quick double tap...
The Norma stuff would be great for defense at a beach or a nudist colony not sure if there is a lot of crime at one. Thanks for a cool video awesome shooting and as always you make learning fun
Thank you for great review,could you possibly do a review on pilgrim torch +p 9mm defense round cannot find any good review of this ammo to see if it lives up to what it’s described as or just smoke and mirrors.✌️
When i first got a glock 43 i thought the norma's would expand so much. (biggest expanding bullet in 9mm). Tried tests my self ... nope Crap ammo. HST 9mm will always be my carry load. Thanks for the vid.
Thank you for facing The Mosquito Horde to give us this REVEALING test! You answered several questions I had about those ammos---ads too good to be true! Regarding mosquitos: can you find "Dr. Bronner's Liquid Eucalyptus Castile Soap?" After a shower with that the bugs will leave you alone, but YOU smell good..............................elsullo
These laboratory brewed bullets are like a Mormon kid in the real world, thoroughly unprepared and out of their element. When the jello-based aliens come I'll pick up a box of them, not sooner.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the HST is the cheaper of the three. That's the one I would be running out of those three. Or I would be running some other decent 124gr JHP if forced to use a 9mm for home defense. Realistically I would be using a shotgun or carbine. Handgun self defense is for away from the home where a rifle or shotgun isn't handy. In that case, I would be running a 9mm or 357 loaded with 38Spl +P or maybe even actual 357 Magnum! Lol. If you run across the Liberty Civil Defense 50g stuff in 9mm, it screams out of a 16" PCC. It seems very similar to the Underwood load in this video. Great testing as usual. Also nice to see a debunk of the walls stopping bullets myth that still seems to hang around.
Thanks. Yeah, I think I paid $50 for 50 rounds as where the Monolithic was $36 for 20 rounds, so basically the HST are half the price. My main go to house gun is my 5" 9mm loaded with these HST's because it's a truly reliable pistol. Second place is my 686 loaded with .357 Mag SJHP. I tried the Liberty Defense last year but only in my 4" Security 9, which has a super slow barrel for a 4". I should run it in my 5".
@@GunSam A couple years ago, perhaps a bit less, Paul Harrell would have considered the HST to be "hyper ammunition". We live in strange times. I got a "case" of 124g HST back in 2019. It's not +P. Product code looks like P9HST1S. 200 rounds. I got it from Midway. I did NOT pay anywhere near the price it is now if you look up that SKU. Even so, this is not blasting ammo. So hopefully it will last me a good long while.
I would have thought the Underwood would have gone great for the house, you got to try the Liberty civil defense or the DRT, as well as the TU I stumble upon a
Nice video Sam. Norma's advertised velocity was a bit high. Do you think their round might perform better out of a carbine? I find it strange that your 4 inches of gel didn't cause immediate expansion on that bullet.
@@GunSam cool , this might sound strange but I'd bet if you looked into the history of that property something bad happened there a long time ago . I don't feel there's any danger there , no graveyards or anything but something happened. I'm not on drugs or a cooke .
This to me, the underwood is a good round for someone who lives in a trailer or RV because there is next to no risk for over penetration through the bad guy. At the end of the day anything powerful enough to kill a man is powerful enough to go clear through multiple rooms of your house. The only safe place for your rounds to land is in the intended target.
I bought 10 boxes of monolithic and have tried many things. The only superior part of it is very accurate😂 Plus it needs carbine to perform the best velocity, I will call it is a carbine design 9mm. The expansion behaves between hp and fmj as what I expected. It doesn't expanse and perform like fmj if there is barrier, or it can expanse like hp if the target is naked. Sounds like one can do all ammo. But for short barrel pistol it maybe just perform as fmj all the time😂 A scorpion evo will make much more sense with the monolithic, and avoid to shoot this with barrels under 4 inches. My mistake is I don't own any 9mm carbine lol. just my two cents😁
Are the monolithics meant to be target rounds?? Ive had “hornady action pistol” bullets before and they are non expanding hollow points for competition.
I've seen this Norma ammo in several videos get clogged by the denim where other copper rounds vary in their performance, I think the Barnes bullets seem to perform consistently even in the face of the dreaded four layers of "blue kevlar" 😈 but I like to see tests on these copper bullets
124 grain HST+p? I have two boxes of them. I have one box of Norma MHP I'm glad I have one box of them. I'm gonna use my gold dot and HST to protect my family.
I thought the Norma would be great after seeing other reviews on it, but for you those rounds failed. I dig your style of testing and put more thoughts about carrying those rounds because results you got.
Not a fan of "gimmicky" type of ammo for home/self defense. Can't go wrong with HST, GOLD DOT, Critical Defense/Duty. Not to worried about drywall shots as we have a pretty good defense plan in place at the home front. Neighbors aren't right on top of us. Now everyone has a plan until as Mike Tyson said "you get punched in the face" bit like everything else practice your drills with family and just prepare for worst hope for the best. And shot placement is probably more key than round, caliber etc IMO.
I don't really understand what they tried to achieve with their bullet variants. The Norma hp that doesn't open, I can see that for target shooting advertising the weight distribution and small groups. Are they advertised for defensive use? EDIT: They are. May open under certain circumstances? Dry wall plugged the hole bingo bango bongo? ruclips.net/video/fiDCx_7t-Rg/видео.html The Underwood may expand as advertised but if it doesn't penetrate enough it won't be helpful. It's like maxing out one stat just to be on top of the expansion list.
Great test! Disappointing. One under penetrated and the other over penetrated and no expansion. Stick with tried and true...The dry wall proved that almost all rounds can be a problem if you miss. Might as well use a good round vs this junk.
Yeah. I am am surprised at how many people think that hollow points simply expand in hard materials the same as soft tissue. Like, it's many, many thousands of people.
From the literally dozens and dozens (and dozens) of videos I've watched regarding Underwood's ammo, the only category of their ammo that appears to consistently out perform hollow points and other monolithic ammo (and, of course, FMJ) is their Xtreme Defender line (which are a fluted solid copper tipped round; except for .380's with short barrels, in which case the Xtreme Penetrator, with a similar but slightly different tip, is top of the chart there). What more people should know is that there's a 51 page multi-bullet/caliber analysis for law enforcement (entitled: 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION) that reached the following unqualified conclusion about the Underwood Xtreme Defender: "Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data." and "The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. ... tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points." and "All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 - 20 inches with and without barriers. " and "Every single shot did roughly the same thing. There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested." It's discussed on p. 32-33. I'd love to see some comparative head to head testing like you did here (with 3" and 5" barrels), using the 4 versions of the 9mm XD (.68 gr. and 90 gr., standard and +P), against whatever you think would be the best performing HPs for the 5" and 3". It should be quite enlightening.
underwood Extreme defender , HST , Gold dot , Winchester defender , critical duty/defense in that order for me the extreme defender and HST are on the same level for me but that's what I use in that order if I can't get extreme defender it's HST if can't get HST it's gold dot in that order usually in 124 grain except the extreme defender
I found a loaded mag out on the street…(big city fun) it was loaded with the Norma mono’s. Good video as always.
So many questions. I imagine a person would have to be in a hurry to leave that behind.
@@rob6850 Yeah, that is weird. From what I have seen via internet evidence lockers is that most criminals have a mix of FMJ and mixed and corroded HP ammo, so being expensive ammo I would guess it's not a true criminal leaving it.
@@GunSam I think you are right!
@@GunSamidk Norma's run cheap as far as mhp go. Granted yes most of the time they end up using fmj.
Thanks for testing these. A little while back I saw that Norma stuff for sale online, but not much else. I'm glad I left it.
I seen the comment you left on the Underwood ammo review . 👍🏾
You always have the best comparison ideas
Thank you.
These "unique" bullets are interesting, but HST and Critical Duty are just super consistent and preform so well it’s just not even worth playing around with "unique" bullets. IMO. Your efforts are very much appreciated too.
Thank you.
I think their primary use is for jurisdictions that don't allow lead bullets
HST and Critical Duty tend to do great in gel, but a high percentage fail to expand in animal targets or after barriers from what I’ve seen.
@@Subtlenimbus have you watched many of Sams videos? Or how about Paul Harrell? I know I trust the results I’ve seen.
@@Subtlenimbus do you work in a morgue?
You're a great shot! What a good grouping of all ammo at 25 yards.
Thanks.
HST still seems to be the best. It seems in any product there are truth , lies, and in between. You proved the lies of the lable on this ammo. Thanks and have a great night 🌙
Thanks Sam, I watch a lot of videos and haven't seen one yet that would give me a good reason to switch from the federal HST in 9mm.
No turtles were harmed in the making of this video.... however one was educated on self defense 9mm choices.
I set him or her on a slight drop behind where I shoot. Not sure if it left or stayed around lol.
@@GunSam it left when it heard HST was not featured. It carries in its EDC.
Great video as always. You and Paul Harrell produce the best ammo analysis on RUclips. Can you test the IMI 124 gr. +P Di-Cut HP if you get a chance? I've seen a bunch of tests with the standard pressure 115 gr HP and it performs very poorly with little to no expansion. Maybe the +P would actually expand.
I'm old-school; Hydra-Shok my carry ammo but you make sense of these other carry round options with solid "real world" testing. Thanks for the great video!
I wish I had your range and setup you shoot at...!! I need a full time hobby at what you do here..!! You rock Sam...!!
Thanks. It's taken a good 10 years to really get the range what it is, I mean in the sense that before I went out there weekly there was a lot of plant growth. Now it's bare from always walking on it.
Love the channel and how anytime I type in a bullet search, you’ve tested it
I watched the whole video but as soon as you mentioned the comparison the HST I knew what would win. The Underwood at least does a lot of damage for a few inches, the Norma flat out sucks. BTW watch your step @10:24😂 I do that all the time, I'm amazed that I've only faceplanted a couple times in my 43 years.
I think that's the one legitimate thing that martial arts ever gave me. I rarely fall lol. i'll be 43 in 2023.
Ur set up makes great sense. Thank u
The clean up crew
I need to shoot more lettuce heads.
The drywall test tells me don't miss
Consider number 4 buck shot.
which of these are low flash??,,and "Dutch" loading of a mag ,one round fmj and next is jhp,is used in winter time, so at least one round will penetrate to the vitals.after a quick double tap...
Glad I didn't waste any money on that Norma last week.
As always a great video. I just happened to buy a box of that Norma. Very interesting
Thanks.
👍 I LOVE THE WAY YOU DO ALL YOUR VIDEOS DIRECT TO THE POINT AND VERY WELL SPOKEN. GREAT INFORMATION AND I ENJOY THE WHOLE VIDEOS 😊👍 GOD BLESS.
Thank you.
Nice! Blessings from the Holy Church itself!
Hi Sam I'm back. ( oh crap ). Great video and thank you for all you've taught me. Ruger Rich
Thanks. Stay well if you can.
Hope you still have time to mow the lawn and take out the trash with all the video work you do for us. Thanks. Bob in Nevada
Luckily my personal yard is just an acre and I have a rider mower. Brought the trash can in this morning before heading out lol.
Another good and interesting video. Thanks and take care.
Thank you.
Well you've surpassed ScubaOz
The Norma stuff would be great for defense at a beach or a nudist colony not sure if there is a lot of crime at one.
Thanks for a cool video awesome shooting and as always you make learning fun
Thanks
The cloth is the bane of a lot of hollow points. I've been filling hollow points with wax for many years. I use melted beeswax.
Just put a drop of holy water in the tip before the wax. You know.....just in case you run into vampires.
The Underwood Maximum Expansion was impressive. It would be great for certain applications. That Monolithic would be fine for range use.
Well, it was $35 for 20 rounds so I wouldn't use it for the range either.
Woow nice video love from Jamaica
Thank you.
Your video, like many others, shows how "hyper" ammo tends to be mostly hype. P.s. will the turtle be making any more appearances?
I set him free. So, it's not up to me!
Thank you for great review,could you possibly do a review on pilgrim torch +p 9mm defense round cannot find any good review of this ammo to see if it lives up to what it’s described as or just smoke and mirrors.✌️
When i first got a glock 43 i thought the norma's would expand so much. (biggest expanding bullet in 9mm). Tried tests my self ... nope Crap ammo. HST 9mm will always be my carry load. Thanks for the vid.
Thank you for facing The Mosquito Horde to give us this REVEALING test! You answered several questions I had about those ammos---ads too good to be true! Regarding mosquitos: can you find "Dr. Bronner's Liquid Eucalyptus Castile Soap?" After a shower with that the bugs will leave you alone, but YOU smell good..............................elsullo
I typically spray down with mosquito spray before I go down there and shower when I get home.
I wonder if your backwards wadcutter low recoil .38 load would pass your drywall test.
If it was a Hornady bullet, probably not. I still have some I loaded a couple years ago I should try.
This was a great video thanks
Underwood maximum expansion would be good for coyotes, bobcats, groundhogs, etc.
Great testing and shooting Sam. I would pass on these. Excellent presentation as always. 🎩☯️♠️
Did the maximum expansion have a wicked Sparrow lake unlike the others?
How does the original baloney pack compared to your new target?
It's hard to know exactly, but I can't use bologna with gel because it ruins the block faster.
I just bought some of this ammo. Great idea!! Does anyone make ball ammo for 327 Fed magnum?
Thanks.
The only thing that is close to "ball" is Federal soft point in 50 round boxes. I have never seen it in FMJ.
I don't recall ever seeing .357 mag ball ammo for that matter.
Hey Sam- Have you tried the Super Vel JHP 90 gr. at 1,500 fps?
@@TheCharlesAtoz Which caliber?
These laboratory brewed bullets are like a Mormon kid in the real world, thoroughly unprepared and out of their element. When the jello-based aliens come I'll pick up a box of them, not sooner.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the HST is the cheaper of the three. That's the one I would be running out of those three. Or I would be running some other decent 124gr JHP if forced to use a 9mm for home defense. Realistically I would be using a shotgun or carbine. Handgun self defense is for away from the home where a rifle or shotgun isn't handy. In that case, I would be running a 9mm or 357 loaded with 38Spl +P or maybe even actual 357 Magnum! Lol.
If you run across the Liberty Civil Defense 50g stuff in 9mm, it screams out of a 16" PCC. It seems very similar to the Underwood load in this video.
Great testing as usual. Also nice to see a debunk of the walls stopping bullets myth that still seems to hang around.
Thanks. Yeah, I think I paid $50 for 50 rounds as where the Monolithic was $36 for 20 rounds, so basically the HST are half the price. My main go to house gun is my 5" 9mm loaded with these HST's because it's a truly reliable pistol. Second place is my 686 loaded with .357 Mag SJHP. I tried the Liberty Defense last year but only in my 4" Security 9, which has a super slow barrel for a 4". I should run it in my 5".
@@GunSam A couple years ago, perhaps a bit less, Paul Harrell would have considered the HST to be "hyper ammunition". We live in strange times. I got a "case" of 124g HST back in 2019. It's not +P. Product code looks like P9HST1S. 200 rounds. I got it from Midway. I did NOT pay anywhere near the price it is now if you look up that SKU. Even so, this is not blasting ammo. So hopefully it will last me a good long while.
Have you checked fmj flat point , I used to load 200 gr 45 fmj .
I would have thought the Underwood would have gone great for the house, you got to try the Liberty civil defense or the DRT, as well as the TU I stumble upon a
HSTs smoked em. Thanks for the vid.
Holy Jayzus! Isn't that darn near EXACTLY the diameter BEFORE firing? I mean for the MHP (obviously)
What's the small gun? Is it a Diamond back?
HST, did I hear HST? I Shoot 147 grain in 9mm and 180 in 40 but they all are the winner, +P or not.
I have a fresh box of 147 HST but didn't realize I tested it before. Even that did well, which is impressive as even 147+P in others don't expand.
I’m curious about the ballistics of the the ammo you test in a rifle length barrel
Nice video Sam. Norma's advertised velocity was a bit high. Do you think their round might perform better out of a carbine? I find it strange that your 4 inches of gel didn't cause immediate expansion on that bullet.
I'll take a HST for any pistol I own, they just work!
Is your property on or near civil war battle grounds ?
I highly doubt it lol. It's in Michigan. We have found Chippewa stone arrow heads though.
@@GunSam cool , this might sound strange but I'd bet if you looked into the history of that property something bad happened there a long time ago . I don't feel there's any danger there , no graveyards or anything but something happened. I'm not on drugs or a cooke .
This to me, the underwood is a good round for someone who lives in a trailer or RV because there is next to no risk for over penetration through the bad guy. At the end of the day anything powerful enough to kill a man is powerful enough to go clear through multiple rooms of your house. The only safe place for your rounds to land is in the intended target.
I bought 10 boxes of monolithic and have tried many things. The only superior part of it is very accurate😂 Plus it needs carbine to perform the best velocity, I will call it is a carbine design 9mm. The expansion behaves between hp and fmj as what I expected. It doesn't expanse and perform like fmj if there is barrier, or it can expanse like hp if the target is naked. Sounds like one can do all ammo. But for short barrel pistol it maybe just perform as fmj all the time😂 A scorpion evo will make much more sense with the monolithic, and avoid to shoot this with barrels under 4 inches. My mistake is I don't own any 9mm carbine lol. just my two cents😁
Needed to compare captured rounds
9mm Norma nxd 65 grain defense ammo
Can you do a test?...KingJesus
Got to admit I kind of miss the water jug test.
Me to bro
Good stuff
I'll stick with HST. Proven performance over hype. Thanks for the visual.
The best test with underwood was tn outdoors9 testing the underwood extreme penetrator, and complaining it penetrated too much.
I have some of the 85 grain Norma in 380. Velocity printed on the box says over 1200. I doubt that's out of a teentsy little pocket pistol.
On the 9mm it says out of a 6” barrel, shorter barrel lower speed.
Your good with that knife 🔪 too
Have you considered a side gig like Jack the Ripper? No over penetration 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 great 25 yd shooting👍
I got initially fooled by the Norma, then PSA had a sale for a box of monolithic at under $10. Now I have 100 rounds of it....
Currently $6.99 per box
save it for pistols that wont feed jhp.
Are the monolithics meant to be target rounds?? Ive had “hornady action pistol” bullets before and they are non expanding hollow points for competition.
No, they are meant to expand huge. Like an inch in diameter.
I've seen this Norma ammo in several videos get clogged by the denim where other copper rounds vary in their performance, I think the Barnes bullets seem to perform consistently even in the face of the dreaded four layers of "blue kevlar" 😈 but I like to see tests on these copper bullets
Most hollowpoints I tend to wax fill to prevent the denim from causing it to expand.
maybe the Turtle likes bologna..
124 grain HST+p? I have two boxes of them. I have one box of Norma MHP I'm glad I have one box of them. I'm gonna use my gold dot and HST to protect my family.
👍🙂 if I had a 9mm
This is one situation where you want to use proven stuff, not the newest, flashiest. HST.
HST to this day is the best, with the exception of their .39 Special and .45 ACP, as I have had some failures of some kind with those.
@@GunSam A 39 Special ... That's kind of like a +P ??
I thought the Norma would be great after seeing other reviews on it, but for you those rounds failed. I dig your style of testing and put more thoughts about carrying those rounds because results you got.
Not a fan of "gimmicky" type of ammo for home/self defense. Can't go wrong with HST, GOLD DOT, Critical Defense/Duty. Not to worried about drywall shots as we have a pretty good defense plan in place at the home front. Neighbors aren't right on top of us. Now everyone has a plan until as Mike Tyson said "you get punched in the face" bit like everything else practice your drills with family and just prepare for worst hope for the best. And shot placement is probably more key than round, caliber etc IMO.
I think I just wasted my money on the MHP...
I don't really understand what they tried to achieve with their bullet variants. The Norma hp that doesn't open, I can see that for target shooting advertising the weight distribution and small groups. Are they advertised for defensive use? EDIT: They are. May open under certain circumstances? Dry wall plugged the hole bingo bango bongo?
ruclips.net/video/fiDCx_7t-Rg/видео.html
The Underwood may expand as advertised but if it doesn't penetrate enough it won't be helpful. It's like maxing out one stat just to be on top of the expansion list.
Stick with HST.
Comment
Don't know bout you, but I don't have 10 layers of drywall. 😮
Bump
Great test! Disappointing. One under penetrated and the other over penetrated and no expansion. Stick with tried and true...The dry wall proved that almost all rounds can be a problem if you miss. Might as well use a good round vs this junk.
Yeah. I am am surprised at how many people think that hollow points simply expand in hard materials the same as soft tissue. Like, it's many, many thousands of people.
And the winner is HST....
Maximum expansion with no penetration. On the bright side it won't pass through anyone
Cmon Norma that’s terrible
That Norma ammo is crap Sam, I reproduced the meat pack and fiber/water and all of them went through. I lost 12 bodies of water trying to catch one.
Norma Monolithic ammo is junk it acts like a fmj on test ive done i carry HST or Extreme Expansion
From the literally dozens and dozens (and dozens) of videos I've watched regarding Underwood's ammo, the only category of their ammo that appears to consistently out perform hollow points and other monolithic ammo (and, of course, FMJ) is their Xtreme Defender line (which are a fluted solid copper tipped round; except for .380's with short barrels, in which case the Xtreme Penetrator, with a similar but slightly different tip, is top of the chart there). What more people should know is that there's a 51 page multi-bullet/caliber analysis for law enforcement (entitled: 2016/17 JOINT AGENCY BALLISTICS TEST FOR DEFENSIVE HANDGUN AMMUNITION) that reached the following unqualified conclusion about the Underwood Xtreme Defender: "Overall: This was by far the most impressive round tested. After over a year of testing this round became the most requested round to test after some of the agencies reviewed draft shot data." and "The radial flutes increase tissue pressure and direct the tissue outward to increase wound diameter. ... tests confirmed that in over 100 shots the measured wound channel was not only larger than that of an FMJ but in most cases was the largest wound channel produced in that caliber compared to all other rounds to include fully functioning hollow points." and "All rounds in all calibers tested penetrated 15.2 - 20 inches with and without barriers. " and "Every single shot did roughly the same thing. There is a 0% chance of failure to function because there can be no failure to tumble or expand (because they don’t) and no chance to fragment. This was the most Reliable and Consistent round tested." It's discussed on p. 32-33. I'd love to see some comparative head to head testing like you did here (with 3" and 5" barrels), using the 4 versions of the 9mm XD (.68 gr. and 90 gr., standard and +P), against whatever you think would be the best performing HPs for the 5" and 3". It should be quite enlightening.
underwood Extreme defender , HST , Gold dot , Winchester defender , critical duty/defense in that order for me the extreme defender and HST are on the same level for me but that's what I use in that order if I can't get extreme defender it's HST if can't get HST it's gold dot in that order usually in 124 grain except the extreme defender