You had me at 380. I've got a m2.0 shield EZ 380 just like the one you have there and I love the thing. You can pop all of your shots off right on target because that recoil just doesn't exist and that trigger and slide are just so nice for a gun in that range. Crispy and responsive. Cool to see we have a same gun! It doesn't perform that great in ballistics test but they will drop somebody if you need it to. Maybe not in as few rounds as some calibers but it is just so comfortable and light to carry versus my p226. Love a good 380 test, though.
Many years ago I was in a tiny urban apartment and carried a Glaser as first up in my pistol. May e that max expansion is for a situation like that, where you are paranoid about shooting through a wall. Fascinating test!👍
Thanks. Actually, a bullet like this will not expand unless it hits something soft. Hitting a wall would be similar to an FMJ hitting a wall and would go through a lot of walls. ruclips.net/video/z3qxMvw4hPA/видео.html
I’ve been carrying the LCP for awhile & recently p/u the MAX. Today I put 200 + rounds of FMJ & HP ammo through it and everything shot POA @ three, five & seven yards absent a single failure. I even mixed FMJ and different kinds of HP in the same mag and it still was flawless. Nothing wrong w/a .380, especially as our weather gets warmer (high 80s today). Thx for another informative video Sam.
@@Echosdad2Yup, me too @ age 77 after carrying a J Frame since 1968. When I ask my retired LEO buddies what they carry it’s almost always the LCP, or some other small frame semi-auto.
@oldcop18 I cycled 200 rounds through the LCP before I ever shot it. At the range round 187 failed to return to battery. Again about 18 rounds later. I sprayed it out with CLP, shook out the excess and finished the 250 rounds. I took it home and cleaned it. Since then I haven't went over 150 rounds without cleaning. I used nickel plated carry ammo exclusively for a while. Can't remember another failure since those two thst wasn't caused by ringed case or something similar. I don't believe in one size fits all maintenance. The firearm will tell you what it needs.
"Limp-wristing'" causes stovepipe jams normally. I don't think that's the issue. The LCP shot the Federal indoor range composite stuff without a hitch, as I recall. If the LCP is having trouble extracting hotter rounds, it might help to polish the chamber so the case can't grab so hard it fails to extract/eject properly. So... chamber polish, maybe replace the extractor. That Smith & Wesson EZ shoots great! :)
In my opinion you should carry either the xtreme defender/pen rounds or FMJ in 380acp, hollowpoint designs just dont work reliably enough and dont have enough power behind them to work properly. The xtreme defender however works quite well out of them, and are what I like to have for these pistols.
Great Testing of HP vs Solid Copper projectiles. I'm sure those micro pistols are great to carry but not ideal to me at all. That Underwood max expansion HP seems pretty awful. Extreme Defender very reliable 12-16" penetration thru denim in gel is great for 380. Excellent explanation of all of it. One thing tho, I have seen 380 bullets expand after shot out of a 3.25" G42 that would not expand out of a 2.75" LCP shot directly after the Glock. So barrel length does play a factor in speed, most of time with 380. Your ammo today didn't show much difference, but that isn't always the case. 380 is right on the line of being able to expand most of the time anyway. If you download the 2016/17 Joint Agency Defensive tests For Handgun Ammunition They concluded that 1100-1200Fps is the best speed for hollowpoint expansion. under 1100 was not reliable and over 1200 was not reliable FWIW. Sometimes they would , but it was not consistent.
Not really surprising results. I'd never use any expanding round in a .380--there's just not enough power, so it either doesn't expand much (if at all) or it expands and has inadequate penetration. The Xtreme Defenders were OK, but for the best results (almost on the level of 9mm), use Underwood's Xtreme Penetrators (for an added inch or 2 of penetration), or go with the +P Xtreme Penetrators for some really impressive results. Also, I'd have love to have seen this test with the newer LCP Max, which might have had more reliable feeding.
@@macriggland6526I can handle the +p in the LCP lmao its not even that bad. The extreme defenders can get your trigger finger a little sore but the 90 gr +p hollow points that passed fbi heavy clothing from tools&targets kick less but somehow with a little bit more energy. They’re both around 230 ft lbs from the LCP though
Winchester FMJ-FN "White Box" FMJ-FN is cheap and will exit a 32" block of gel if you really want max penetration. The problem with the boutique stuff is nobody will pay $300 for the 200 rounds for reliability testing in a sub-$200 pistol. $23 a box of 50 Fiocchi DD JHP will expand or tumble and always make 12"+. They basically mimic .44 Spl Wadcutter profile when expanded.
@@gk5891 Wow, "nobody will pay $300 for the 200 rounds for reliability testing in a sub-$200 pistol." I guess then that I must be nobody. I have this weird philosophy that my life and the lives of the ones I love is wort it. How silly. Although in fact I don't own anything that's a "sub-$200 pistol"
Thanks for the video. I carry the 68 gr Extreme Defender in my LCP (original bad trigger and no slide lock back). I purchased a Hogue grip made specifically for the original LCP and it is pinned to the gun. It really helps with grip and recoil in that little gun. Thanks again.
Thumbs up for another great test, solid testing methods and getting out the popular carry length barrel lcp. Not the best for performance but it’s my edc
Thanks Sam, I been carrying the Ruger LCP Max with the stainless slide loaded at this time with Sig Sauer 90 grain elite defense hollow points and Winchester 90 grain Full metal jacket flat nose. These rounds are staggered with the Sig round being first. I fired several magazines with this combination without any failures to function. I must thank you for all your tests as being true and factual. Please continue as I generally respect and rely on your tests. God Bless America.
My EDC are Ruger LCP Max and Bersa Thunder. Defiant Munitions TCX was made for the LCP Max and it consistently penetrates 9-12 inches thru cloth and gel and expands beautifully. It is the ammo I now carry. You should test it in future videos.
I've owned the LCP, LCP Custom and LCP 2. I got rid of each because they would not reliably handle any ammo I tried. I now own a standard .380 EZ and (knock wood) have yet to have a failure of any sort and somewhere close (give or take) to 1000 rounds of all sorts of ammo. I love that gun.
I have shot a few hundred rounds in my EZ. Got like 2 malfunctions with different Underwood+P ammo, which I shouldn't have been running. Reliable with normal ammo.
I own two different regular LCP's and have used an extensive array of ammo and neither has had a single failure whatsoever. Zero. One of the pistols has around 600 rounds through it and the other right at 400. Bought one in 2011 and the other in 2012. Great little pistols.
@@myvenusheeler Very glad you're having good performance; I love Ruger firearms as a rule. I have had sn excellent 6 inch SS Mk2 for years and gave my youngest daughter the best revolver I've ever owned, which is a .38 Police Service Six by Ruger. I just had no luck with those LCP's.
This is an older video and probably will not read this comment but I was having the exact same issues you are with my LCP. Sent it to Ruger and it came back with a new slide and barrel. The new slide has a long extractor. 100% extraction now.
This is why I have the xtreme defenders a my carry ammo. Barrier blind and it will dump the energy via those flutes. No clogging issues. Those max expansion ones really dump the energy fast, kind of impressive when you think about it. In certain applications it would make sense.
I carry a bersa thunder 380 for my edc. I always use underwood extreme defender +P ammunition. Complete faith in this combination for defensive capabilities.
The Defender looks like the bullet of choice for the 380. I assume you have a found a hollow point in some caliber that expands well in bare gelatin but clogs and fails with the denim. Can we make the cheap hollow points work well by filling the cavity with wax or Plasticine?
Love to see the .380 tests. That XD is pretty decent, consistent in gel. The whole underwood line of max expansion, in my opinion, is a waste. I've tested 9mm 380 and 38 special myself and they either penetrate shallowly or clog with denim and become an expensive FMJ. Maybe in .45 they'd be ok if they expand every time...?
The maximum expansion bullets could be used as a get off me round similar to rubber bullets but has more punch. I also had same kind of malfunctions with my LCP2. Sent it back & Ruger replaced the barrel and extractor & since then I have shot about 135 rounds thru it with no malfunctions. Knowing its fairly reliable I don’t shoot it as I think these pistols may prematurely wear out. So I mostly carry my P365 as that is reliable as well as being much more accurate.
I have yet to hear much good about the LCP, and i think they had some recalls too. If they are using light, fast bullets, how about a controlled expansion design that will expand a little (say to .45" or so) and penetrate more. If they could get 12-14", it would be pretty viable. I am not a 380 fan and do not own one. However, a medium size 380, like a Beretta 84, makes a good training gun. As far as the moderately compact 380's, for similar weight and size, a good 38 snubby is a good option. Many 38 rounds do well, and low penetration is almost never an issue. "Only" 5 shots, but you only need the first 2. If you train like you should, 5 rounds is no handicap.
I have the LCP Max. It's the second one. I had a ton of feeding problems with the first one. Sent it back to the factory twice and they finally replaced it. It seems to be functioning correctly now with FMJ. I think the gun for the time being is best with the FMJ. I'd rather have it reliable. It seems like I need to shoot the heck out of it and make sure I've got my shot placement down.
Gun Sam, I follow all of your videos and I am always amazed by your shooting competency! You make the best videos and I never miss one. I want to ask you a direct question about your preference for a 380 pistol. I have the LCP, the LCP Max, and the Ruger Security 380, which I love. Which 380 pistol is your favorite and which 380 ammo do you prefer. Thanks for your candor and recommendations.
My Sig P365-380 cycles the Xtreme Defenders perfectly. But, they hit way left and down a little from point of aim at 10 yards. 🙁 Maybe I should try the +P version?
I bought a LCP MAX recently as a supplement to carry, when I am not carrying my EDC and otherwise wouldn't be carrying at all. I picked up more mags so I carry mostly Hornady Critical Defense but I am also carry some FMJ as another option if needed. I have been watching a lot of these testing videos because I want to see what might be the best ammo to carry, I wish the results were better but it seems to be the ammo and not the testers that cause the disappointing results.
I find the 68 gr +p to kick pretty hard out of the LCP but I never had a malfunction after 80 rounds. The 90 gr +p jhp item 152 (now discontinued) do not kick as hard despite having like 5% more energy
My Ruger LCP Max is accurate but jams. It's staying in the safe. Tools and Targets did a .380 test today. He got lousy results too. Good test young fella.
What ammo jams in your Max? I have one, and have never experienced a failure to either feed or eject, but then all I have ever run through it is round- or flat-nosed FMJs.
the max expander application could be for dense crowd popuated areas, it would still work, the perp isnt going to know how far it penetrated but is going to know and feel it, way over 100,000 incidences where a shot misses or even hits a perp and they run or stop the attack, also you have more rounds in the magazine, it is going to cause a massive amount of damage to heart or head, if arm in front of chest you simply shoot when arm isnt blocking or use magazine with more rounds, thats why guns have a magazine is so you can use more rounds, the perp if shot isnt going to take out a tape measure and debate fbi protocol, anyone who gets shot by a max expander is going to feel it, some of the lowest penetrating rounds are still effective simply because person who gets shot is going to be in fear and not know how far bullet penetrated but will be running away or seeking medical attention, also you can out run a perp who has been shot, you dont stand in one spot waiting for a reaction, you shoot and get the cover and the perp runs away not wanting to shoot it out with you, they dont care about penetration, anyone shot by any bullet 99999.9 percent reaction is running away, those expander rounds you dont see massive temporary cavity wich will cause a lot of blood loss increasing the perps fear level even if it doesnt reach a vital, you got perps on video getting shot in arm or leg acting like they are going to die, incapacitating is often unnecessary to stop most threats as shown on video, self defense reports and and private citizen defense research that excludes law enforcement defense stats wich should never be compared to or lumped in with private citizen data, stats and research
From all the testing I've seen, I just can't believe Underwood made and is selling that max expanding round. They are just a complete gimmick. I love Underwood for the most part, but this is not a good look for them.
My pocket gun is a Kahr P380 with the Underwood Xtreme Defender... Could be that because the EZ is a Blowback and the LCP is a Locked Breech that the velocities are so close...
What's surprising is that this is from underwood and they usually have it down pretty solid usually so this is surprising, I wonder if this is a mistake at the factory with the powder charge, as it seems unusually low and underpowered from them, I'd expect to see this are 250 to 275fpe, Also these styles of bullets with the hugely expanding petals that don't fragment seems to follow the same formula of low speed and huge expansion because the petals don't seem to be thick enough, This style should be an excellent option but until one of the manufacturer's makes a version with extra thick petals and high fpe it's going to stay a sort of gimmick, It's not like they don't have the space as these all have massive hollow points with thin walls, if the just thickened the walls and have a small hollow point a bit like the federal hi shock I think is the round I'm thinking about and upped the fpe to the maximum then it would be a different animal, That in a 45+p at around 550fpe or 45 super or a 40 at 600fpe 10mm at 750fpe+ and a 9mm at 500fpe+ that would be exiting to see, Hopefully lehigh or someone reads this and makes it and sends some to Sam was us to watch, now I am dreaming 😅lol.
I guess if you want to know how effective a round would be against an Adeptus Astartes simulating a 3 inch pectoral muscle backed by a bone plate would be anatomically correct...
I have long been suspicious of the claims that the flutes on the xtreme defender cause more damage by hydrostatic pressure. I believe the flutes cause the bullet to yaw sideways creating more damage that way. It works I guess but not how they claim.
You said the recoil is like shooting a 22 short , you’d be better off carrying that than the Max Expansion.😄 When you can retrieve projectiles from gel using only a finger and not a tool, well there you go. 😄 👍🇺🇸
Hey bud I think you are the guy to ask I just bought a Taurus model 44 and am a lil concerned with it's cylinder rotational slop I feel like it rotates a 16th of an inch in each direction and also the ejector rod also has play in it. I already put 20 full power rounds threw it and it was accurate its brand new should I be concerned??
It's difficult for me to say whether that's normal cylinder play or not just by going from numbers. Unloaded, looking down the bore and trying to turn the cylinder while closed, you should never see the cylinder face, the chamber holes should look 99% lined up even when trying to turn the cylinder when closed. Also, before you say it's too loose, try putting empty brass in all the chambers and try turning the cylinder, as sometimes the lockup is more correct with extractor star support. Ejector rod should not have much play in it. But I cannot be sure of anything while just going by description.
@@GunSam thanks! I will check out what you said to do. The older fellow at the shop I had it sent to said it was normal but I wanted another opinion. Thanks for the input buddy love the videos
Even with hardly any penetration I wouldn't want that folded out maximum expansion 3.5 inches inside my chest that's all I'm saying. I have the .38 special LeHigh Defense rounds with the maximum expansions and then bought a bunch from Underwood with the same bullet to shoot in my snubby .357.
It seems like a good idea to switch to a powerful 380 caliber but in the long run, it cost more for a box of underwood bullets. It’s better to stick with the 9mm and learn to control the recoil. A box of 9mm will always be more economical.
15feet away 🤔 parity good like the under wood 380acp is just a short 9mm I like it better than the 9 for everyday carry work. Is just going to break apart on the max exp.
I under how these rounds would perform from a carbine in 380 ? I bought one of the Hi-Point ran 250 rounds it is accurate and maybe the increased velocity in both these would make for significant damage.
The purpose of .380 ammo is to allow the user to carry a small pistol. This is the first I've ever heard of a carbine that shoots .380 ammo. It doesn't seem to me to make a lot of sense.
@@OnlineAdjunctYou wouldn't believe how many people think more barrel means more velocity, no matter what. They think that if .357 Mag goes from 1,400 FPS to 2,000 FPS when going from a handgun to a carbine, that a .380 ACP will go from 1,000 FPS to 1,600 FPS in a carbine. When I tell people a .38 Special wadcutter shoots faster in a snub nose than a carbine due to low power and eventual reversal of velocity due to bore drag, their head explodes.
One thing I’ve always mentioned to you with the LCP is that there isn’t something wrong with how you’re shooting it, and nothing inherently defective about the LCP in general, but that YOUR SPECIFIC LCP has some type of defect from a QC issue that you never got resolved on it? No firearm in the history of firearms has ever been 100% flawless from production, with absolutely perfect QC lol. Not even just firearms, but products in general. Im assuming you don’t care though since you don’t like it anyway and it will at least allow you to test velocity and the gel. But Im sure it could use some fix from Ruger or a gunsmith. My LCP works fine with all ammo. Even my wife can shoot it without malfunctions with +p Underwood ammo and I know for a fact you shoot better than she does. But LCP’s sucking is just a hill you seem content to “rest” on
I was hoping that you would test these .380 brands! Very useful to see how consistent the Extreme Defense round is: MORE effective than round nose FMJ! But functioning with such a light round in such a small auto is problematic: there is a very narrow range of weight and power that will work in a tiny gun, since so much has to happen so fast in so little space. That weight ammo is too light and bound to be unreliable for repeating shots...................................elsullo
I have. For some unknown reason, people have told me over and over again for years that in .380 ACP the XTP is the best. Even with Underwood ammo of near 1,000 FPS, the 90 gr XTP clogged with denim and barely expanded. The Federal Hydrashok Deep was a lot better than that performance.
Cant deny it had a LOT of expansion. .71 from .380 is crazy expansion. But its not worth much if it doesnt hit anything important. Probably a lot of energy transfer as well
Best results I've seen out of a 2.75" 380 is the Federal Premium Hydrashok Deep. Its a hollow point with the post in the middle....expansion and penetration to around 15"inches.
I wish they would make a ar platform in 380 I'd love to sbr one to push those 95 grain hollow points to expansion threshold while still remaining sub sonic for a suppressor gun would be sweet and pack more punch than the pistol I'd look at something like that cause my gf/the girl i like and am with most of the time is scared of guns and has only ever shot a 22 but she's disabled so for the situation it would make scenes
@GunSam yeah I know it won't add much and I'm only talking maybe a 7 inch barrel and it would mostly be a fun range toy for me lol 9mm subsonic ammo is twice what 380 is for a suppressor friendly round lol just my thoughts I'm loving these 380 videos though keep up the great work
Those Xtreme Defenders I'm actually very impressed with, knowing that they're .380's; both guns (even the sub-compact, what I'd argue is probably the most optimal choice for a .380) I'd say at least made it just enough to the minimum requirement for penetration for self-defense against humans. They also seemed to leave pretty nice wound channels, and regardless of whether they expand or not, there's still all of that energy getting dumped into the target and not over-penetrating. I think those are an adequate choice for .380 ACP carry. BUT... Those Maximum Expansion rounds blew my mind with their terminal performance, it's just no competition: the clear victor here are our hollow points for today
But why would it be more than anything else? Most .380 ACP rounds of traditional design would not pass through a body. Unless you are suggesting somehow the bullet expands when hitting hard objects, which it does not. It would remain starting diameter and being solid copper, go through more hard stuff than a traditional bullet.
@@GunSam Actually, many .380 rounds will penetrate over 12" easily. (Especially when someone is firing in a hurry, and they miss center mass....I don't know anyone who has an arm or a leg or even a shoulder that could 100% stop a .380 or any other small calibers) I was thinking on these slightly off-target shots, it would have minimal penetration if it hit a cabin wall after hitting an arm or leg and passing through...Once it hit the insulation, it may not make it through to the exterior to cause a decompression problem.
Glad to see more people testing 380 again. With more advanced bullet design now the 380 is no slouch.
"Enough penetration for some things in life..." 😂
You killin me Smalls!!!
Thanks GunSam!!!!
I know u get a bunch of flack but all ur doing is helping us make a better choice then we would if didn’t have the info!!!
You had me at 380. I've got a m2.0 shield EZ 380 just like the one you have there and I love the thing. You can pop all of your shots off right on target because that recoil just doesn't exist and that trigger and slide are just so nice for a gun in that range. Crispy and responsive. Cool to see we have a same gun! It doesn't perform that great in ballistics test but they will drop somebody if you need it to. Maybe not in as few rounds as some calibers but it is just so comfortable and light to carry versus my p226. Love a good 380 test, though.
Many years ago I was in a tiny urban apartment and carried a Glaser as first up in my pistol. May e that max expansion is for a situation like that, where you are paranoid about shooting through a wall. Fascinating test!👍
Thanks. Actually, a bullet like this will not expand unless it hits something soft. Hitting a wall would be similar to an FMJ hitting a wall and would go through a lot of walls. ruclips.net/video/z3qxMvw4hPA/видео.html
@@GunSam well, thanks, now I don’t know what you’d use it for. Shooting mice?🙄
I’ve been carrying the LCP for awhile & recently p/u the MAX. Today I put 200 + rounds of FMJ & HP ammo through it and everything shot POA @ three, five & seven yards absent a single failure. I even mixed FMJ and different kinds of HP in the same mag and it still was flawless. Nothing wrong w/a .380, especially as our weather gets warmer (high 80s today). Thx for another informative video Sam.
It's about all I carry myself because I hate the discomfort of something larger or heavier although I carry a shield EZ.
@@Echosdad2Yup, me too @ age 77 after carrying a J Frame since 1968. When I ask my retired LEO buddies what they carry it’s almost always the LCP, or some other small frame semi-auto.
200 rounds out the the LCP Max? You must be a glutton for punishment. I salute your tolerance for pain.
@oldcop18 I cycled 200 rounds through the LCP before I ever shot it. At the range round 187 failed to return to battery. Again about 18 rounds later. I sprayed it out with CLP, shook out the excess and finished the 250 rounds. I took it home and cleaned it. Since then I haven't went over 150 rounds without cleaning. I used nickel plated carry ammo exclusively for a while. Can't remember another failure since those two thst wasn't caused by ringed case or something similar. I don't believe in one size fits all maintenance. The firearm will tell you what it needs.
"Limp-wristing'" causes stovepipe jams normally. I don't think that's the issue. The LCP shot the Federal indoor range composite stuff without a hitch, as I recall.
If the LCP is having trouble extracting hotter rounds, it might help to polish the chamber so the case can't grab so hard it fails to extract/eject properly. So... chamber polish, maybe replace the extractor.
That Smith & Wesson EZ shoots great! :)
Thanks for testing! Great work! Stay safe Sam.
Thank you
Yes love this test and can’t wait for the results!!!!
In my opinion you should carry either the xtreme defender/pen rounds or FMJ in 380acp, hollowpoint designs just dont work reliably enough and dont have enough power behind them to work properly. The xtreme defender however works quite well out of them, and are what I like to have for these pistols.
Great Testing of HP vs Solid Copper projectiles. I'm sure those micro pistols are great to carry but not ideal to me at all. That Underwood max expansion HP seems pretty awful. Extreme Defender very reliable 12-16" penetration thru denim in gel is great for 380. Excellent explanation of all of it. One thing tho, I have seen 380 bullets expand after shot out of a 3.25" G42 that would not expand out of a 2.75" LCP shot directly after the Glock. So barrel length does play a factor in speed, most of time with 380. Your ammo today didn't show much difference, but that isn't always the case. 380 is right on the line of being able to expand most of the time anyway. If you download the 2016/17 Joint Agency Defensive tests For Handgun Ammunition They concluded that 1100-1200Fps is the best speed for hollowpoint expansion. under 1100 was not reliable and over 1200 was not reliable FWIW. Sometimes they would , but it was not consistent.
Not really surprising results. I'd never use any expanding round in a .380--there's just not enough power, so it either doesn't expand much (if at all) or it expands and has inadequate penetration. The Xtreme Defenders were OK, but for the best results (almost on the level of 9mm), use Underwood's Xtreme Penetrators (for an added inch or 2 of penetration), or go with the +P Xtreme Penetrators for some really impressive results. Also, I'd have love to have seen this test with the newer LCP Max, which might have had more reliable feeding.
Just use FMJ poindexter. It hits spine and feeds every time. Won’t jump out of your hand in a mouse gun either.
Goofy stand in front of me and see.
@@macriggland6526I can handle the +p in the LCP lmao its not even that bad. The extreme defenders can get your trigger finger a little sore but the 90 gr +p hollow points that passed fbi heavy clothing from tools&targets kick less but somehow with a little bit more energy. They’re both around 230 ft lbs from the LCP though
Winchester FMJ-FN "White Box" FMJ-FN is cheap and will exit a 32" block of gel if you really want max penetration.
The problem with the boutique stuff is nobody will pay $300 for the 200 rounds for reliability testing in a sub-$200 pistol.
$23 a box of 50 Fiocchi DD JHP will expand or tumble and always make 12"+. They basically mimic .44 Spl Wadcutter profile when expanded.
@@gk5891 Wow, "nobody will pay $300 for the 200 rounds for reliability testing in a sub-$200 pistol." I guess then that I must be nobody. I have this weird philosophy that my life and the lives of the ones I love is wort it. How silly. Although in fact I don't own anything that's a "sub-$200 pistol"
Thanks for the video. I carry the 68 gr Extreme Defender in my LCP (original bad trigger and no slide lock back). I purchased a Hogue grip made specifically for the original LCP and it is pinned to the gun. It really helps with grip and recoil in that little gun. Thanks again.
Thanks very much for testing Underwood ammunition. IMHO the best! A base line ball ammo test would be great.
Love your testing method Gun Sam, thanks dude.
Thumbs up for another great test, solid testing methods and getting out the popular carry length barrel lcp. Not the best for performance but it’s my edc
you make cool videos with cool and relevant content. Straight down to the point.
Thanks Sam, I been carrying the Ruger LCP Max with the stainless slide loaded at this time with Sig Sauer 90 grain elite defense hollow points and Winchester 90 grain Full metal jacket flat nose. These rounds are staggered with the Sig round being first. I fired several magazines with this combination without any failures to function. I must thank you for all your tests as being true and factual. Please continue as I generally respect and rely on your tests. God Bless America.
Thanks for all you informative and enjoyable videos.
My EDC are Ruger LCP Max and Bersa Thunder. Defiant Munitions TCX was made for the LCP Max and it consistently penetrates 9-12 inches thru cloth and gel and expands beautifully. It is the ammo I now carry. You should test it in future videos.
I've owned the LCP, LCP Custom and LCP 2. I got rid of each because they would not reliably handle any ammo I tried. I now own a standard .380 EZ and (knock wood) have yet to have a failure of any sort and somewhere close (give or take) to 1000 rounds of all sorts of ammo. I love that gun.
I have shot a few hundred rounds in my EZ. Got like 2 malfunctions with different Underwood+P ammo, which I shouldn't have been running. Reliable with normal ammo.
I own two different regular LCP's and have used an extensive array of ammo and neither has had a single failure whatsoever. Zero. One of the pistols has around 600 rounds through it and the other right at 400. Bought one in 2011 and the other in 2012. Great little pistols.
@@myvenusheeler Very glad you're having good performance; I love Ruger firearms as a rule. I have had sn excellent 6 inch SS Mk2 for years and gave my youngest daughter the best revolver I've ever owned, which is a .38 Police Service Six by Ruger. I just had no luck with those LCP's.
Thanks for another good .380 ammo video... it reaffirmed my suspicion to never run those Max expansion rounds in any of my .380s
Thanks for sharing, Sam. Interesting results.
Thanks for watching.
Thanks for the LCP
This is an older video and probably will not read this comment but I was having the exact same issues you are with my LCP. Sent it to Ruger and it came back with a new slide and barrel. The new slide has a long extractor. 100% extraction now.
Another fine vid Sam. Thanks!
That mud test sold me. 😮
I'm sold on the max expansion. It definitely did what was advertised
This is why I have the xtreme defenders a my carry ammo. Barrier blind and it will dump the energy via those flutes. No clogging issues.
Those max expansion ones really dump the energy fast, kind of impressive when you think about it. In certain applications it would make sense.
This is very obviously the new air Marshall round that's going in to service.
I carry a bersa thunder 380 for my edc. I always use underwood extreme defender +P ammunition. Complete faith in this combination for defensive capabilities.
Great test. I carry the Xtreme Defender ammo in my Sig P365 380.
That maximum expansion would probably really shine as a direct to the eyeball round from under 1ft 👍
"enough penetration for some things in life". brilliant double entendre
Great info & thanks for posting!😃🇺🇸
The Defender looks like the bullet of choice for the 380. I assume you have a found a hollow point in some caliber that expands well in bare gelatin but clogs and fails with the denim. Can we make the cheap hollow points work well by filling the cavity with wax or Plasticine?
I'm using Underwood Xtreme Penetrators 90g+P in my Bersa FireStrom. It was my 94yr old neighbor's pistol:)
I had a Bersa Thunder380 briefly. Was a pretty good pistol.
Love to see the .380 tests. That XD is pretty decent, consistent in gel. The whole underwood line of max expansion, in my opinion, is a waste. I've tested 9mm
380 and 38 special myself and they either penetrate shallowly or clog with denim and become an expensive FMJ. Maybe in .45 they'd be ok if they expand every time...?
The maximum expansion bullets could be used as a get off me round similar to rubber bullets but has more punch. I also had same kind of malfunctions with my LCP2. Sent it back & Ruger replaced the barrel and extractor & since then I have shot about 135 rounds thru it with no malfunctions. Knowing its fairly reliable I don’t shoot it as I think these pistols may prematurely wear out. So I mostly carry my P365 as that is reliable as well as being much more accurate.
I have yet to hear much good about the LCP, and i think they had some recalls too. If they are using light, fast bullets, how about a controlled expansion design that will expand a little (say to .45" or so) and penetrate more. If they could get 12-14", it would be pretty viable. I am not a 380 fan and do not own one. However, a medium size 380, like a Beretta 84, makes a good training gun. As far as the moderately compact 380's, for similar weight and size, a good 38 snubby is a good option. Many 38 rounds do well, and low penetration is almost never an issue. "Only" 5 shots, but you only need the first 2. If you train like you should, 5 rounds is no handicap.
I would like to see that maxim expansion in something like a 357. With more mass and more power would it stay in one piece and get more penetration?
GS. Good video. Doesn't look like the Max Expansion is of much value except for making mud fly. Thanks for sharing and take care.
Thank you, take care.
I have the LCP Max. It's the second one. I had a ton of feeding problems with the first one. Sent it back to the factory twice and they finally replaced it. It seems to be functioning correctly now with FMJ. I think the gun for the time being is best with the FMJ. I'd rather have it reliable. It seems like I need to shoot the heck out of it and make sure I've got my shot placement down.
I would have HST or gold dot when I get a 380 pistol possibly be a Cheecha new one.
A Gallaway 13lb spring and guide rod may make a difference on the LCP handling the extreme defender amunition.
Gun Sam, I follow all of your videos and I am always amazed by your shooting competency! You make the best videos and I never miss one. I want to ask you a direct question about your preference for a 380 pistol. I have the LCP, the LCP Max, and the Ruger Security 380, which I love. Which 380 pistol is your favorite and which 380 ammo do you prefer. Thanks for your candor and recommendations.
I’d take a good, flat point FMJ over either of those.
Can’t beat the Winchester white box flat points for .380 because there just aren’t many rounds that can expand and penetrate.
My Sig P365-380 cycles the Xtreme Defenders perfectly. But, they hit way left and down a little from point of aim at 10 yards. 🙁 Maybe I should try the +P version?
It's good for backup. I have lcp 380 II. With 90 grain was look like 9mm in recoil.
I go with extreme defender in my bodyguard 380, backup mag loaded with ball. When the chips are down i need reliablity and round nose gives it.
I bought a LCP MAX recently as a supplement to carry, when I am not carrying my EDC and otherwise wouldn't be carrying at all. I picked up more mags so I carry mostly Hornady Critical Defense but I am also carry some FMJ as another option if needed. I have been watching a lot of these testing videos because I want to see what might be the best ammo to carry, I wish the results were better but it seems to be the ammo and not the testers that cause the disappointing results.
I want to see these pricey fancy rounds compared to regular FMJ target ammo.
For 380 they are going to perform about the same.
@@timrobinson6573 -- Yes, which is why I load round-nosed FMJs in my .380 EDC gun.
Nice of you,re lcp to accecpt them very good function wow peace
The 380 hydrashok deep works well. But I do think this solid copper design is the future.
I find the 68 gr +p to kick pretty hard out of the LCP but I never had a malfunction after 80 rounds. The 90 gr +p jhp item 152 (now discontinued) do not kick as hard despite having like 5% more energy
My Ruger LCP Max is accurate but jams. It's staying in the safe. Tools and Targets did a .380 test today. He got lousy results too. Good test young fella.
That is a shame. I've considered the LCP Max. If you send it back to Ruger, I'm curious to know if they will send it back to you fixed.
What ammo jams in your Max? I have one, and have never experienced a failure to either feed or eject, but then all I have ever run through it is round- or flat-nosed FMJs.
the max expander application could be for dense crowd popuated areas, it would still work, the perp isnt going to know how far it penetrated but is going to know and feel it, way over 100,000 incidences where a shot misses or even hits a perp and they run or stop the attack, also you have more rounds in the magazine, it is going to cause a massive amount of damage to heart or head, if arm in front of chest you simply shoot when arm isnt blocking or use magazine with more rounds, thats why guns have a magazine is so you can use more rounds, the perp if shot isnt going to take out a tape measure and debate fbi protocol, anyone who gets shot by a max expander is going to feel it, some of the lowest penetrating rounds are still effective simply because person who gets shot is going to be in fear and not know how far bullet penetrated but will be running away or seeking medical attention, also you can out run a perp who has been shot, you dont stand in one spot waiting for a reaction, you shoot and get the cover and the perp runs away not wanting to shoot it out with you, they dont care about penetration, anyone shot by any bullet 99999.9 percent reaction is running away, those expander rounds you dont see massive temporary cavity wich will cause a lot of blood loss increasing the perps fear level even if it doesnt reach a vital, you got perps on video getting shot in arm or leg acting like they are going to die, incapacitating is often unnecessary to stop most threats as shown on video, self defense reports and and private citizen defense research that excludes law enforcement defense stats wich should never be compared to or lumped in with private citizen data, stats and research
A friend has an LCP and it has had problems and it is miserable to shoot. The Shield EZ and Bersa are more reliable and enjoyable to shoot.
From all the testing I've seen, I just can't believe Underwood made and is selling that max expanding round. They are just a complete gimmick. I love Underwood for the most part, but this is not a good look for them.
Great test! Thanks for testing 380 with both barrel lengths. The Max Expansion isn't very good with the short penetration.
My pocket gun is a Kahr P380 with the Underwood Xtreme Defender...
Could be that because the EZ is a Blowback and the LCP is a Locked Breech that the velocities are so close...
Verrry Interesting.
Spot on. ❤
Dude, what lcp are you running? I have an lcp max and it hasn't choked once in 500 rounds..
Regular LCP. Everyone I know that has them say theirs jams too.
Defiant Munitions has an interesting bullet in this caliber.
What's surprising is that this is from underwood and they usually have it down pretty solid usually so this is surprising,
I wonder if this is a mistake at the factory with the powder charge, as it seems unusually low and underpowered from them,
I'd expect to see this are 250 to 275fpe,
Also these styles of bullets with the hugely expanding petals that don't fragment seems to follow the same formula of low speed and huge expansion because the petals don't seem to be thick enough,
This style should be an excellent option but until one of the manufacturer's makes a version with extra thick petals and high fpe it's going to stay a sort of gimmick,
It's not like they don't have the space as these all have massive hollow points with thin walls, if the just thickened the walls and have a small hollow point a bit like the federal hi shock I think is the round I'm thinking about and upped the fpe to the maximum then it would be a different animal,
That in a 45+p at around 550fpe or 45 super or a 40 at 600fpe 10mm at 750fpe+ and a 9mm at 500fpe+ that would be exiting to see,
Hopefully lehigh or someone reads this and makes it and sends some to Sam was us to watch, now I am dreaming 😅lol.
The maximum expansion round could definitely handle an extra 100fpe and would be then maybe a option to carry but not in this loading as it is,
Underwood : " The customers ask for .380 that will absolutley , positively give major expansion Every Time ? We can give them what they ask for ! "
I would like to see the Buffalo bore 158 lswhp against the Winchester version of the 158 +p
Filmed 5-11-23
👍😊 that’s an extremely difference of out comes.
I guess if you want to know how effective a round would be against an Adeptus Astartes simulating a 3 inch pectoral muscle backed by a bone plate would be anatomically correct...
The maximum expansion would be a great pumpkin/Melon/2liter round! 👍🏻😏
I have long been suspicious of the claims that the flutes on the xtreme defender cause more damage by hydrostatic pressure. I believe the flutes cause the bullet to yaw sideways creating more damage that way. It works I guess but not how they claim.
When i ran a constable from astra had similar with homogeneous bullets ended up with hundred grain semi wad cutters be well thank,s Peace
You said the recoil is like shooting a 22 short , you’d be better off carrying that than the Max Expansion.😄
When you can retrieve projectiles from gel using only a finger and not a tool, well there you go. 😄
👍🇺🇸
I run 68 gr +p xd in my back up, back up gun, a Kahr 380.
Hey bud I think you are the guy to ask I just bought a Taurus model 44 and am a lil concerned with it's cylinder rotational slop I feel like it rotates a 16th of an inch in each direction and also the ejector rod also has play in it. I already put 20 full power rounds threw it and it was accurate its brand new should I be concerned??
It's difficult for me to say whether that's normal cylinder play or not just by going from numbers. Unloaded, looking down the bore and trying to turn the cylinder while closed, you should never see the cylinder face, the chamber holes should look 99% lined up even when trying to turn the cylinder when closed. Also, before you say it's too loose, try putting empty brass in all the chambers and try turning the cylinder, as sometimes the lockup is more correct with extractor star support. Ejector rod should not have much play in it. But I cannot be sure of anything while just going by description.
@@GunSam thanks! I will check out what you said to do. The older fellow at the shop I had it sent to said it was normal but I wanted another opinion. Thanks for the input buddy love the videos
Even with hardly any penetration I wouldn't want that folded out maximum expansion 3.5 inches inside my chest that's all I'm saying. I have the .38 special LeHigh Defense rounds with the maximum expansions and then bought a bunch from Underwood with the same bullet to shoot in my snubby .357.
So stick with FMJ for reliability and max penetration? 🔫🤪
Thank you!
It seems like a good idea to switch to a powerful 380 caliber but in the long run, it cost more for a box of underwood bullets. It’s better to stick with the 9mm and learn to control the recoil. A box of 9mm will always be more economical.
Wow….. if over penetration is your concern, the extreme expanding one is for you. I would prefer the extreme defender.
15feet away 🤔 parity good like the under wood 380acp is just a short 9mm I like it better than the 9 for everyday carry work. Is just going to break apart on the max exp.
I under how these rounds would perform from a carbine in 380 ? I bought one of the Hi-Point ran 250 rounds it is accurate and maybe the increased velocity in both these would make for significant damage.
Velocity increase would be 200 FPS at best, maybe not even that.
The purpose of .380 ammo is to allow the user to carry a small pistol. This is the first I've ever heard of a carbine that shoots .380 ammo. It doesn't seem to me to make a lot of sense.
@@OnlineAdjunctYou wouldn't believe how many people think more barrel means more velocity, no matter what. They think that if .357 Mag goes from 1,400 FPS to 2,000 FPS when going from a handgun to a carbine, that a .380 ACP will go from 1,000 FPS to 1,600 FPS in a carbine. When I tell people a .38 Special wadcutter shoots faster in a snub nose than a carbine due to low power and eventual reversal of velocity due to bore drag, their head explodes.
The maximum expansion 380 would be great for point-blank execution-style headshot, but since that wouldn't be in self-defense not round for me😂
I want G9's flute shape, but everything else Underwood 68 grain xd loading. For 9mm and 380
I don’t understand why Underwood added the “max expansion” line.
Do they think people want minimal penetration and lack of effectiveness???
One thing I’ve always mentioned to you with the LCP is that there isn’t something wrong with how you’re shooting it, and nothing inherently defective about the LCP in general, but that YOUR SPECIFIC LCP has some type of defect from a QC issue that you never got resolved on it? No firearm in the history of firearms has ever been 100% flawless from production, with absolutely perfect QC lol. Not even just firearms, but products in general. Im assuming you don’t care though since you don’t like it anyway and it will at least allow you to test velocity and the gel. But Im sure it could use some fix from Ruger or a gunsmith. My LCP works fine with all ammo. Even my wife can shoot it without malfunctions with +p Underwood ammo and I know for a fact you shoot better than she does.
But LCP’s sucking is just a hill you seem content to “rest” on
The maximum expansion would make a good parachute.
I feel like it's something Batman would use with a string attached.
@@GunSam LOL yeah. Just too much expansion for the bullet weight and velocity to get any penetration. It's a serious design flaw.
It seems like the 68gr +P penetrates better from the LCP
I was hoping that you would test these .380 brands! Very useful to see how consistent the Extreme Defense round is: MORE effective than round nose FMJ! But functioning with such a light round in such a small auto is problematic: there is a very narrow range of weight and power that will work in a tiny gun, since so much has to happen so fast in so little space. That weight ammo is too light and bound to be unreliable for repeating shots...................................elsullo
Underwood might want to change the name from “Maximum Expansion” to “Minimally Lethal.”
So we learned that .380 Max Expansion is a nice none lethal round!😂
Call it less than lethal. A bean bag alternative if you will.
@@dentalnovember Maybe it would be a better alternative to bean bags. From all videos I have seen were the cops did use it it never stoped anyone.
Try Underwood 90g XTP people will change their mind about hollow points… Especially in the +P XTP
I have. For some unknown reason, people have told me over and over again for years that in .380 ACP the XTP is the best. Even with Underwood ammo of near 1,000 FPS, the 90 gr XTP clogged with denim and barely expanded. The Federal Hydrashok Deep was a lot better than that performance.
@@GunSam not my experience, I swear by him and trust him
Cant deny it had a LOT of expansion. .71 from .380 is crazy expansion. But its not worth much if it doesnt hit anything important. Probably a lot of energy transfer as well
Needs to be the 3rd round, two to the body.....and then maybe it would work.
Best results I've seen out of a 2.75" 380 is the Federal Premium Hydrashok Deep.
Its a hollow point with the post in the middle....expansion and penetration to around 15"inches.
I wish they would make a ar platform in 380 I'd love to sbr one to push those 95 grain hollow points to expansion threshold while still remaining sub sonic for a suppressor gun would be sweet and pack more punch than the pistol I'd look at something like that cause my gf/the girl i like and am with most of the time is scared of guns and has only ever shot a 22 but she's disabled so for the situation it would make scenes
A longer barrel isn't really going to add much velocity to a .380 ACP. Even 9x19mm barely benefits from more barrel after a certain point like 5".
@GunSam yeah I know it won't add much and I'm only talking maybe a 7 inch barrel and it would mostly be a fun range toy for me lol 9mm subsonic ammo is twice what 380 is for a suppressor friendly round lol just my thoughts I'm loving these 380 videos though keep up the great work
Those Xtreme Defenders I'm actually very impressed with, knowing that they're .380's; both guns (even the sub-compact, what I'd argue is probably the most optimal choice for a .380) I'd say at least made it just enough to the minimum requirement for penetration for self-defense against humans. They also seemed to leave pretty nice wound channels, and regardless of whether they expand or not, there's still all of that energy getting dumped into the target and not over-penetrating. I think those are an adequate choice for .380 ACP carry.
BUT...
Those Maximum Expansion rounds blew my mind with their terminal performance, it's just no competition: the clear victor here are our hollow points for today
Those max expansions would be good for air marshals on planes.
But why would it be more than anything else? Most .380 ACP rounds of traditional design would not pass through a body. Unless you are suggesting somehow the bullet expands when hitting hard objects, which it does not. It would remain starting diameter and being solid copper, go through more hard stuff than a traditional bullet.
@@GunSam Actually, many .380 rounds will penetrate over 12" easily. (Especially when someone is firing in a hurry, and they miss center mass....I don't know anyone who has an arm or a leg or even a shoulder that could 100% stop a .380 or any other small calibers)
I was thinking on these slightly off-target shots, it would have minimal penetration if it hit a cabin wall after hitting an arm or leg and passing through...Once it hit the insulation, it may not make it through to the exterior to cause a decompression problem.
In 380 you should really try Underwood 380 +P loads.