Brilliant to see Renewable Heating Hub kicking off 2025 with another discussion with some of those at the forefront of the Heat Pump industry. Some really interesting comments regarding the control systems for Heat Pumps and their unnecessary complexity. Nice to see the positive reaction from the guys to the main stream energy companies joining the Heat Pump installation drive. As always Mars you were a brilliant moderator....that was until you wrapped the discussion up when exciting news about changes to the recommended delta T popped out of Graham's mouth prompting Brendon to chip in.....what a Cliff hanger! 😀
That was one of my favourite episodes because it was refreshingly candid. As for the cliffhanger, it was the perfect moment to pause and build anticipation around how the Delta 10 will unfold in the industry as a standard. We’ll definitely revisit this topic in January when recording resumes next Friday. Thank you for your ongoing support, thoughtful comments and for tuning in!
In light of the delta T comments in the video, you can check out Graham's new post on our website on the subject: renewableheatinghub.co.uk/2025-the-year-heating-technology-steps-up
As a homeowner who has a well performing heat pump despite my installer having cut corners, I believe most failures are a consequence of poor training and a lack of effective regulation. Yes, controllers could be better, but the majority of heating engineers I have encountered either don’t understand the underlying physics or, if they do, simply don’t care if they fail to conduct a proper heat loss survey, size the heat pump correctly or design the heating system for optimal efficiency.
I spent the Christmas holiday explaining to various family members about my ASHP install and optimisation. They all decided that sticking with gas was a lot simpler and probably cheaper in the short to medium term. Gas needs to double or triple in price to force people.
Why would you believe that gas has to become more expensive? Is it so that you’re able to say that your chosen method of heat becomes cheaper comparable to the alternate?
After our Octopus install I did say that the company should have a video or something to explain the settings and best way of running it, and I had picked up lots of tips and info from RUclips before that , but leaving possibly someone with no knowledge is just plain daft, I am tho a big fan a few months later...
24:20 The exact same thing happens with most things - look at Tesla Powerwall Software Controls for their inverter/batteries. Everyone copies the format and features and in all honesty they are crap, lacking features (they can't even amend the currency in the UK for $ & cents to £ and pence!)
The fundamental reason why ASHP installs are poor...is that they are usually installed by plumbers. And the standard of plumbers in the UK is generally very poor. Hence, education is the key... and an acceptance that some plumbers, regardless of education and training, simply are never going to understand the maths involved in designing ASHP systems.
I agree my Mitsubishi heat pump controls are not user friendly. As an ex plumber I found it difficult to alter to set up weather compensation. After 5 months I am just starting to get it working. Unfortunately oversized. Thank goodness I had open energy monitoring to see what is happening. Thanks for your videos
I have just watched your video and totally agree that the controls are not user friendly my vaillant heat pump was installed just recently and the controls are over complicated for a normal house hold what a house hold wants is to turn the thermostat up or down to achieve a heat that they are comfortable with and to achieve that as cheap as possible not to have to change multiple settings to do so heat curve wether compensation flow rate.
@RenewableHeatingHub I am still missing about with the settings It's set on thermostat mode set for 17° actual room temp 19° will have to reset flo tep lower and perhaps heat curve but for me it's to much messing about last week out temp 12°+ today -1° having to change the settings on a weekly basis is not practical
I have a Daikin heat pump installed by Octopus. I did have an issue and they did sort it out. Due to an error in the initial heat loss report they over sized my heat pump. There was a fair bit of to and fro but they performed a second survey, confirmed the heat pump was oversized and replaced it at their cost.
@19:00... yes it's true that renewables installers need to know alot and be multi-skilled... but if they're earning in excess of £50k pa (as they can with the grants available)... that's what they need to do ! There's no such thing as a free lunch, as they say...
What if they provided the grant for upgrading the heating system (rad, pipes etc) and didn't subsidise the actual HP. That way the heating system can be installed ahead of the HP. As long as the emitters are big enough to drop the flow to 45C or below you get the grant.
Heat pumps themselves just need to be lower cost, get them as close to cost parity with a decent weather comp capable gas boiler. Then the grant can be used towards the rest of the system. Personally I think a low % or 0% loan should be offered a lot of people have not got the upfront capital even with the grant.
I got a heat pump installed last year (by Vito energy, who incidentally are not particularly cheap). My advice to any considering an install is to do your homework extensively and get a proper heat loss survey. That way you can get a good idea of the likely scope of the work and size of the ASHP you’ll need. Oversizing the heatpump is one of the most common errors.
@douglasstalley6475 it's not new, ive been installing them for.over 25 years. It's our whole heating industry that is the problem, manufacturers want you to think it's a real dark art. So much talk on how systems need to be upgraded, IMO these systems were not designed and are inadequate from the start, some of were installing heatnpump ready systems decades ago. IE low temperature running systems with minimum controls. But manufacturers want to sell boxes and say things like warrantys are voided if you don't install all this extra control/buffers etc. I designed my whole house as one box and only have weather compensation running the system, no zone valves, no actuators and stats on my underfloor heating.
43.56 The question: Why aren't people buying them. The answer is very obvious. They are very inflexible and cannot respond to a cold evening quickly, they need outside space for the box which is not possible in flats, they can be noisy to upset the neighbours and the main drawback is they are so expensive even after a grant. £8000 or more AFTER a grant to save a few hundred pounds per year is just illogical.
From a hydrocarbon fuel based heating technician who also has completed level three heat pump and low water temperature heating et cetera….. This is refreshing content. I have to say it’s frustrating to hear people say how they feel that the price of hydrocarbon based fuel needs to increase ….. surely the primary problem is that the amount of bureaucracy and stupidity regarding registration equals the costs of heat pump installation is extortionate in comparison to hydrocarbon based alternate. I managed to slash regulations to the point at which they bankrupt in the world yet we seem to somehow managed to get more and more red tape within the heating industry😂
Aye to all that! My heat pump was installed by 2 'kids' who seemed to install nothing but heat pumps, but have no specific training in heat pump technology... The company's 'tech' guy did measure up room sizes/volumes and work out heat loss, emitter areas and volumes etc, and seemingly sized the heat pump kilowattage accordingly (although, now I understand so much more, I reckon it is over-sized maybe 20 or 30%, probably, as with all emitters wide open, and with temp/weather compensation working, it still cycles way too much), yet the lads who fitted the whole shebang were just plumbers, basically, doing what they were told to do. Despite this, I do get an annual, average COP - and 'shoulder' season' - of about 2.5:1, and a midwinter COP of about 2:1. Which is obviously at least 2-2.5 times better than any other kind of electric heating. My previous solid fuel central heating cost about two and a half times as much to run, with the addition of tons of coal and logs to lug around, so my 2.5x 'efficiency' heat pump is excellent by comparison. Heat Geek reckon a SCOP of 3.5-4.0 should be attainable with any installation, but nothing I have tried gets me beyond 2.5 (which I am still relatively happy with when all is said and done). Maybe one of the latest generations of heat pump might do better (mine is Vaillant Arotherm, not the Plus, as the grant mine was available on meant there was no choice in the matter, and it seems that for the 11 kWh is given about a 2.5:1), but I don't have the money to rip a perfectly reasonably working pump out in order to experiment... I'm still quids in vs solid fuel (and am not pumping out coal smoke anymore), my house is as well insulated as is reasonable (wall cavities, loft with 30 cm of mineral wool etc), and a very cosy temperature inside at all times. So, it could be better re-COP compared to much that I see online, but it could be worse (some neighbours still have night storage heaters, NW coast of Scottish Highlands, no mains gas), and I can more or less afford the £150 a month for lecky, and I reckon a total for gas and electric, if gas were here, wouldn't be much different for this location. But keep on pushing for better understanding about heat pumps - another neighbour, who still burns coal, asked me if I had to 'seal the house up' to make a heat pump work. That's the level of understanding out there! I said, sure, I don't throw all the windows and doors open and expect the house to stay warm!! But I wouldn't do that anyway. My dad might not have been right about much, but he was about having no wish to let expensive heat out - why would anyone expect to heat their house with windows and/or doors flung open in all weathers...
@RenewableHeatingHub I shouldn't have to do what I do. I've requested a conversation with a major manufacturer to help them improve controls. Guess what, haven't heard anything. Happy New Year to you both.
It’s disappointing to hear that manufacturers seem unwilling to improve their controllers. This ongoing issue feels like a significant barrier to making heat pump systems more user-friendly and accessible. Improved controller technology could simplify operations and boost adoption rates, yet this remains an area of stagnation.
Don’t be so daft ! I’ve been a heating engineer for 39 years now. No matter how hard people try to up sell heat pumps, they are not ever going to be a main stream choice. I’ve worked on them in domestic and commercial situations many times and they just do not preform as efficiently as a well fitted natural gas boiler/boilers . It does make me smile how the only people that champion ASHP are the ones that are heavily invested in them and livelihoods depend on them .
Rather worrying that you claim that Heap Pumps are less efficient than Gas Boilers... whilst also claiming to be an Engineer ??? I think, even at GCSE level maths, it should be possible to understand that 400% is greater than 90%. Oh well...
Brilliant to see Renewable Heating Hub kicking off 2025 with another discussion with some of those at the forefront of the Heat Pump industry. Some really interesting comments regarding the control systems for Heat Pumps and their unnecessary complexity. Nice to see the positive reaction from the guys to the main stream energy companies joining the Heat Pump installation drive. As always Mars you were a brilliant moderator....that was until you wrapped the discussion up when exciting news about changes to the recommended delta T popped out of Graham's mouth prompting Brendon to chip in.....what a Cliff hanger! 😀
That was one of my favourite episodes because it was refreshingly candid. As for the cliffhanger, it was the perfect moment to pause and build anticipation around how the Delta 10 will unfold in the industry as a standard. We’ll definitely revisit this topic in January when recording resumes next Friday.
Thank you for your ongoing support, thoughtful comments and for tuning in!
In light of the delta T comments in the video, you can check out Graham's new post on our website on the subject: renewableheatinghub.co.uk/2025-the-year-heating-technology-steps-up
As a homeowner who has a well performing heat pump despite my installer having cut corners, I believe most failures are a consequence of poor training and a lack of effective regulation. Yes, controllers could be better, but the majority of heating engineers I have encountered either don’t understand the underlying physics or, if they do, simply don’t care if they fail to conduct a proper heat loss survey, size the heat pump correctly or design the heating system for optimal efficiency.
@clivepierce1816 most engineers don't know how to get the best out of a heat pump or even diagnose poor performance issues.
I spent the Christmas holiday explaining to various family members about my ASHP install and optimisation. They all decided that sticking with gas was a lot simpler and probably cheaper in the short to medium term. Gas needs to double or triple in price to force people.
Why would you believe that gas has to become more expensive?
Is it so that you’re able to say that your chosen method of heat becomes cheaper comparable to the alternate?
After our Octopus install I did say that the company should have a video or something to explain the settings and best way of running it, and I had picked up lots of tips and info from RUclips before that , but leaving possibly someone with no knowledge is just plain daft, I am tho a big fan a few months later...
24:20 The exact same thing happens with most things - look at Tesla Powerwall Software Controls for their inverter/batteries. Everyone copies the format and features and in all honesty they are crap, lacking features (they can't even amend the currency in the UK for $ & cents to £ and pence!)
The fundamental reason why ASHP installs are poor...is that they are usually installed by plumbers. And the standard of plumbers in the UK is generally very poor. Hence, education is the key... and an acceptance that some plumbers, regardless of education and training, simply are never going to understand the maths involved in designing ASHP systems.
I agree my Mitsubishi heat pump controls are not user friendly. As an ex plumber I found it difficult to alter to set up weather compensation. After 5 months I am just starting to get it working. Unfortunately oversized. Thank goodness I had open energy monitoring to see what is happening.
Thanks for your videos
I hope you don't mind me asking, why/how is your ASHP oversized?
I have just watched your video and totally agree that the controls are not user friendly my vaillant heat pump was installed just recently and the controls are over complicated for a normal house hold what a house hold wants is to turn the thermostat up or down to achieve a heat that they are comfortable with and to achieve that as cheap as possible not to have to change multiple settings to do so heat curve wether compensation flow rate.
Thanks for your interesting feedback... are you still trying to figure out the controller?
@RenewableHeatingHub
I am still missing about with the settings
It's set on thermostat mode set for 17° actual room temp 19° will have to reset flo tep lower and perhaps heat curve but for me it's to much messing about last week out temp 12°+ today -1° having to change the settings on a weekly basis is not practical
I have a Daikin heat pump installed by Octopus. I did have an issue and they did sort it out. Due to an error in the initial heat loss report they over sized my heat pump.
There was a fair bit of to and fro but they performed a second survey, confirmed the heat pump was oversized and replaced it at their cost.
@19:00... yes it's true that renewables installers need to know alot and be multi-skilled... but if they're earning in excess of £50k pa (as they can with the grants available)... that's what they need to do ! There's no such thing as a free lunch, as they say...
What if they provided the grant for upgrading the heating system (rad, pipes etc) and didn't subsidise the actual HP. That way the heating system can be installed ahead of the HP. As long as the emitters are big enough to drop the flow to 45C or below you get the grant.
Heat pumps themselves just need to be lower cost, get them as close to cost parity with a decent weather comp capable gas boiler.
Then the grant can be used towards the rest of the system.
Personally I think a low % or 0% loan should be offered a lot of people have not got the upfront capital even with the grant.
I got a heat pump installed last year (by Vito energy, who incidentally are not particularly cheap). My advice to any considering an install is to do your homework extensively and get a proper heat loss survey. That way you can get a good idea of the likely scope of the work and size of the ASHP you’ll need. Oversizing the heatpump is one of the most common errors.
Thanks guys, a really interesting conversation for engineers to consider whilst moving this direction with this new tec
@douglasstalley6475 it's not new, ive been installing them for.over 25 years. It's our whole heating industry that is the problem, manufacturers want you to think it's a real dark art. So much talk on how systems need to be upgraded, IMO these systems were not designed and are inadequate from the start, some of were installing heatnpump ready systems decades ago. IE low temperature running systems with minimum controls. But manufacturers want to sell boxes and say things like warrantys are voided if you don't install all this extra control/buffers etc. I designed my whole house as one box and only have weather compensation running the system, no zone valves, no actuators and stats on my underfloor heating.
Really good conversation. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for listening.
If DT is 10k for radiators COP/ SCOP it will be less ? What impact it will be on the heating system? Are available some data for comparation ?
43.56 The question: Why aren't people buying them. The answer is very obvious. They are very inflexible and cannot respond to a cold evening quickly, they need outside space for the box which is not possible in flats, they can be noisy to upset the neighbours and the main drawback is they are so expensive even after a grant. £8000 or more AFTER a grant to save a few hundred pounds per year is just illogical.
The day the government extended the grant scheme that includes ATA systems will be the day that gas boilers will take a backward step .
The government has just announced they will apply the grants to A2A from after Easter.
From a hydrocarbon fuel based heating technician who also has completed level three heat pump and low water temperature heating et cetera…..
This is refreshing content.
I have to say it’s frustrating to hear people say how they feel that the price of hydrocarbon based fuel needs to increase ….. surely the primary problem is that the amount of bureaucracy and stupidity regarding registration equals the costs of heat pump installation is extortionate in comparison to hydrocarbon based alternate.
I managed to slash regulations to the point at which they bankrupt in the world yet we seem to somehow managed to get more and more red tape within the heating industry😂
Aye to all that! My heat pump was installed by 2 'kids' who seemed to install nothing but heat pumps, but have no specific training in heat pump technology... The company's 'tech' guy did measure up room sizes/volumes and work out heat loss, emitter areas and volumes etc, and seemingly sized the heat pump kilowattage accordingly (although, now I understand so much more, I reckon it is over-sized maybe 20 or 30%, probably, as with all emitters wide open, and with temp/weather compensation working, it still cycles way too much), yet the lads who fitted the whole shebang were just plumbers, basically, doing what they were told to do. Despite this, I do get an annual, average COP - and 'shoulder' season' - of about 2.5:1, and a midwinter COP of about 2:1. Which is obviously at least 2-2.5 times better than any other kind of electric heating. My previous solid fuel central heating cost about two and a half times as much to run, with the addition of tons of coal and logs to lug around, so my 2.5x 'efficiency' heat pump is excellent by comparison. Heat Geek reckon a SCOP of 3.5-4.0 should be attainable with any installation, but nothing I have tried gets me beyond 2.5 (which I am still relatively happy with when all is said and done). Maybe one of the latest generations of heat pump might do better (mine is Vaillant Arotherm, not the Plus, as the grant mine was available on meant there was no choice in the matter, and it seems that for the 11 kWh is given about a 2.5:1), but I don't have the money to rip a perfectly reasonably working pump out in order to experiment... I'm still quids in vs solid fuel (and am not pumping out coal smoke anymore), my house is as well insulated as is reasonable (wall cavities, loft with 30 cm of mineral wool etc), and a very cosy temperature inside at all times. So, it could be better re-COP compared to much that I see online, but it could be worse (some neighbours still have night storage heaters, NW coast of Scottish Highlands, no mains gas), and I can more or less afford the £150 a month for lecky, and I reckon a total for gas and electric, if gas were here, wouldn't be much different for this location. But keep on pushing for better understanding about heat pumps - another neighbour, who still burns coal, asked me if I had to 'seal the house up' to make a heat pump work. That's the level of understanding out there! I said, sure, I don't throw all the windows and doors open and expect the house to stay warm!! But I wouldn't do that anyway. My dad might not have been right about much, but he was about having no wish to let expensive heat out - why would anyone expect to heat their house with windows and/or doors flung open in all weathers...
I have been creating back door controls on systems for years, because the heat pump interfaces are just not good enough.
That’s because you’ve got those mad hacking skills Ken 😂. Happy new year Mr. Bone!
@RenewableHeatingHub I shouldn't have to do what I do. I've requested a conversation with a major manufacturer to help them improve controls. Guess what, haven't heard anything.
Happy New Year to you both.
It’s disappointing to hear that manufacturers seem unwilling to improve their controllers. This ongoing issue feels like a significant barrier to making heat pump systems more user-friendly and accessible. Improved controller technology could simplify operations and boost adoption rates, yet this remains an area of stagnation.
Why is one of your panel using a Ai Background bookshelves, it's breaking up his image, what a waste of time
It’s his personal choice.
Hey, Lets have a chat. 2025 The YEAR NOT to get a Heat pump...
A Tesla ASHP, now you're talking.
Give Musk my money?
I think not.
Well, Gregg Jackson is increasingly looking like a UK Elon Musk.
@@AlanTov OK Trotsky.
@@AlanTov why is that?
What is it that you so dislike about, Mr. Musk?
Don’t be so daft ! I’ve been a heating engineer for 39 years now. No matter how hard people try to up sell heat pumps, they are not ever going to be a main stream choice. I’ve worked on them in domestic and commercial situations many times and they just do not preform as efficiently as a well fitted natural gas boiler/boilers . It does make me smile how the only people that champion ASHP are the ones that are heavily invested in them and livelihoods depend on them .
Rather worrying that you claim that Heap Pumps are less efficient than Gas Boilers... whilst also claiming to be an Engineer ??? I think, even at GCSE level maths, it should be possible to understand that 400% is greater than 90%. Oh well...