@@michaeldawson6309 Agreed. It would be great if I can gain a few extra miles while I shop, so anything between 3Kw -7Kw would do nicely. There are still loads of Zoë models out there that can do 11Kw, so to be able to charge at that speed would be great for them too.
Shopping centres need low priced 7-11kWh charging as many people will spend 3 to 4 hours here. Then a few 100+kWh rapid chargers for those that want to call in grab a drink and go. Personally I think soemwhere around 50 EV charge points would be a good start!
Dave these are destination chargers not transit chargers, whilst there should indeed be more of them at this site they don't need to be rapid/ultra-rapid for the intended use. A mix of 7/22/43kW AC and 50kW DC will suite most cars and most needs at a retail site. A fairer Tesla Network comparison would be Tesla Destination charger sites that similarly vary from 7kW to 22kW AC. If the site had higher power chargers one would need to return to the car before finishing charging to move the car to a non-charging parking space. Whereas the indended use is a parking space, sometime paid, with an additional function as a EV charger. The issue is there should be more of them at the site rather than the power rating.
Glad you’re going to put a bit more focus on non-Tesla EV charging infrastructure, not everyone wants a Tesla and with more and more EV choice available this content is needed. Thanks Dave
I think 50kW is fine for a shopping centre. Realistically most people visiting a shopping centre are going to be there at least an hour or two. So as long as a car charges in under an hour it's not a problem. You don't need 200kW in that situation. Still, the age of chargers can become a problem, as 4 year old chargers often require an app that nobody wants, or some RFID card that nobody has. 11kW chargers on the other hand, and especially non-tethered ones, need to be binned. They're absolutely not fit for purpose. My own issue is locations that ONLY have Tesla chargers (that in reality are not compatible with some ccs cars even when they say they are open to 'all' - and worse, shopping centres with Tesla chargers that AREN'T open to all.)
No. 50Kw is way to fast. My BMW i3 would be full from empty in less than 1 hour at 50Kw. Most people will arrive here at maybe 50% or more state of charge and for me that means less than 30mins on a 50Kw charger. 11Kw is sensible at a shopping mall.
7-11Kw chargers are perfect for these areas. I don't want to run to the shop then run back before I have finished my purchase because it is charged already.
The Tesla chargers that are open to none Tesla EVs are incredibly (notably Trafford park) busy and you will be lucky to be able to charge between 10pm -11pm which is when the reduced rate per kw starts. Even when you do find a bay they are slow, at best with a preconditioned battery and 4% remaining I got barely past 70 KW speed and then for only a short period. I have used twice, and on both occasions it took over 35 mins to get to 80%. There are no facilities, no shelters or shops available at that time either. As the price for charging (with membership cards) for none EVs is the same for Tesla owners then as more chargers become available for all EVs then Tesla will lose its advantage.
I've been there a couple of times and no issues and no one else arriving had to queue, however it was earlier this year and more and more EVs are on the road so may be an issue now, truth is, people will seek the cheapest normally, just like petrol and diesel prices.
@ I noted several large delivery fans charging - no drivers in or near the vehicles so perhaps they are charging overnight? I would normally go to Stockport as Trafford is rather busy, but they have the fast chargers out of commission (4 weeks now). Fortunately I’m able to do most of my charging from home so it wasn’t a moan but rather an observation.
As a southerner, I’m more likely to drive south rather than north. But we have quite a good supply of electric vehicle charging stations here in Hertfordshire!!
I feel these location only need a 11Kw charger maximum (at a cheap rate!), the chances are, people are out shopping or watching a film and not in a rush. If they're in a rush, go to a fast charger location. I'd like to see a row of 20+ charging points at 11Kw, that would be nice, but unlikely to happen at the moment (one day it will) as likely to be ICED! Putting super fast DC chargers in these locations will result in stress, worrying about getting charged by the minute as you run out of the cinema to move your car, so 4 hours max should be sufficient before being charged (even if 100% full).
One of my local sites. Bought our first EV a few weeks ago and went with my wife for one of our first charging experiences. Uttter garbage, almost put her off bothering to drive the EV. We had to leave the site and find somewhere else, so Middlebrook retail park lost all our custom for the day because of this joke of a charging area. As Dave says, time for the park Facilities Manager to move on to another job!
As I’m just about to purchase my first electric campervan, a Nissan eNV200 with electric camping equipment. The shame is that it has a Chademo under the front!!
Personally I run a Citroen Ami and a Dacia Spring. If I'm going to a shopping centre all I need is a top up to get me home. My wife seldom let's me escape in less than 3hrs. Plugged into one of those chargers on either vehicle for 3 hours would be fine. That gives me an 80 mile round trip in my Ami ( that's a long way in an Ami in one day) or 240 miles round trip in my Dacia,
We looked at the Tesla's, but the cheapest was €44.000, idiotic price. So we bought the Dongfeng Nammi Box Launch edition for €20.700. Live is a lot better without paying double.
Used one at West cliff car park whitby. Parked for 2 hours expecting at least 7kw/hr & all I pulled was 3kw/hr nothing more than a top up waste of time really. Much better at Helmsley using the Zest charger where I got 35kw/hr in 50 mins to get me to 80% capacity.
@@GaryMorley-g3k the 4 mer 22kW AC up at St Hilda's are good option, you've just got to watch out for their 9 hour time limit. Still not ideal as the list of parking rules is massive.
Yep, and that is because you have to be a member of the "BP Club" (not the real name, but a sarcastic finger pointer by myself). Nobody else can use them for either love or money.
Middlebrook 😂 BP will not repair those 11kW units because they would have to make them contactless. They will simply walk away. I’ve contacted BP and they confirmed this is their policy.
I would have thought they could repair the 11kW without having to upgrade the payment option as the Public Charge Point Regulations only talks about "new installations" over 8kW with retrospective for chargers over 50kW.
I see a pattern in the UK, instead of putting chargers where they might just be helpful, the tactic is to put them where you also have to pay to park. Rip off Britain strikes again!
Not realy, for destination chargers it more of a parking bay where one can happen to charge. This allows one to charge and return to the car one finished shopping, watching a movie or dining out. If this was a charging only bay (with a rapid+ charger) one would need to return mid-activity to move the car to a parking bay (paying for parking in that bay). The issue with this site is a lack of investment to increase the number of chargers.
Hi Dave agree with you on how many old chargers are in these types of retail parks. The only good thing is new modern Ev’s some have very good range. My current car upwards to 300 miles and the other car I’m considering will cover well over 350 miles. So thankfully I don’t need to use the charging network unless on a long road trips holiday etc then I chose to use the large charging hubs if I need to. As I’m able to charge at home nearly all the time.
Like many poorer areas there have been no upgrades usually due to low usage. Bolton has a high number of terraced housing so it's likely an area that will adopt EVs later than other areas. So it will probably only be business customers that will be using them at the moment like that BMW or the Maxus T90 pickup parked next to you. Other visitors are likely quite local and can charge at home so have no need to destination charge. It's not like many people will be visiting from a long distance for a day out. 😂
11Kw is not hard to deliver but it depends on the onboard AC charger capacity of the car. Most are 11Kw. Its fast enough for a shopping experience as you want about 2 hours freedom.
That sort of multi-outlet site seems exactly the sort of place that should have destination charge points. The only issue is that there should be more, and newer. Those 11kW destination points will need replaced per the law changes anyway as they are >8kW.
The Public Charge Point Regulations only applies to new installations above 8kW. It applies retrospectively to those of 50kW and above so the 11kW wouldn't need to be upgraded to comply.
I hate shopping and even I could manage to get some reasonable added range from a 50kW charger in the time it takes me to buy a pair of trousers. I've said this before but look at the non-Tesla provision at the services on the M40 Northbound. Warwick Services in particular is very poorly served.
I'm getting my first EV next year and wouldn't even consider buying anything else other than Tesla. Why would you with expensive, unreliable, slow chargers like these?
Bit short sighted to only consider a Tesla. Plenty of other models p, cheaper and nearly as efficient as a Tesla. This is a poor example of a charging bay but it is far from typical. I have no problems whatever finding places to charge my Kona the few times I have to use public chargers.
Dave it cant be that good of a location or busy enough, busy Tesla would be there with a 12 / 18 or 24 bay hub and it would be "Open to all". Own goal scored, Tongue firmly in cheek.
Not everyone can afford a Tesla, Dave. The acceleration and top speed puts insurance premiums at the top end. 50 Kw is plenty fast enough if stopping for 45 minutes. Are we to see 400 volt cars sidelined in the next few years as newer models go 800 volt?
Hey how much you pay for full charge plus the time you waste. Also, I would like to see a video of you to give tribute to the fella Scotsman who invented your beloved EVs in 1832. Man, England is stuck in the stone age with those chargers.
Dave, you mention staying at the shopping centre for up 4/5 hours. Not being an Ev owner, are you allowed to leave your car in a charging bay for that length of time? Or do you have to come out of the film half way through to move it?
Varies by location, but the general rule is if its a destination charger (typically 50kw or less) and you pay for parking at the site (i e. not free parking) then the charging bay will be a parking bay as well and you have to pay parking. If its a transit charger (typically those over 50kW) then its likely you don't pay parking but have to move the car once charged, to a parking bay if intending to stay onsite. Things vary so it's best to read the signage for the car parks rules, which may limit parking duration. In the past parking used to be free at chargers but these days this tends to only be the case if non-charging parking is also free.
Dave, stop harping on with your "get a Tesla mantra" yes the superchargers are great VFM but not everyone can afford to buy a Tesla let alone to be able to afford to insure a car in insurance group 50. This talk about 50kW chargers being rubbish is out of line too as most people buying a reasonable priced used EV will probably get one with a maximum charging speed of 50kW or less, my current cars max charging speed is at most 46kW the car I'm shortly replacing it with maxes out at 50kW, I don't honestly understand the obsession with faster and faster rapid charging speeds, is life so short that you can't manage to wait 30-40 minutes to recharge your EV, charging for 15 minutes is hardly enough time for a toilet break, a sandwich and a coffee, chill out don't be in such a hurry.
You don't need DC chargers if you are going to spend a couple of hours shopping.
Correct you need 10's of 11Kwh chargers at a good price.
@@michaeldawson6309 Agreed. It would be great if I can gain a few extra miles while I shop, so anything between 3Kw -7Kw would do nicely. There are still loads of Zoë models out there that can do 11Kw, so to be able to charge at that speed would be great for them too.
@@janhenkins my Zoe can charge at up to 22kW AC
@@stephenbagwell8275 That's right, and it would be great to be able to charge at that speed everywhere you go.
Shopping centres need low priced 7-11kWh charging as many people will spend 3 to 4 hours here. Then a few 100+kWh rapid chargers for those that want to call in grab a drink and go.
Personally I think soemwhere around 50 EV charge points would be a good start!
Dave these are destination chargers not transit chargers, whilst there should indeed be more of them at this site they don't need to be rapid/ultra-rapid for the intended use. A mix of 7/22/43kW AC and 50kW DC will suite most cars and most needs at a retail site.
A fairer Tesla Network comparison would be Tesla Destination charger sites that similarly vary from 7kW to 22kW AC.
If the site had higher power chargers one would need to return to the car before finishing charging to move the car to a non-charging parking space. Whereas the indended use is a parking space, sometime paid, with an additional function as a EV charger. The issue is there should be more of them at the site rather than the power rating.
"As a Tesla owner...", Eye roll.
Glad you’re going to put a bit more focus on non-Tesla EV charging infrastructure, not everyone wants a Tesla and with more and more EV choice available this content is needed. Thanks Dave
I think 50kW is fine for a shopping centre. Realistically most people visiting a shopping centre are going to be there at least an hour or two. So as long as a car charges in under an hour it's not a problem. You don't need 200kW in that situation. Still, the age of chargers can become a problem, as 4 year old chargers often require an app that nobody wants, or some RFID card that nobody has. 11kW chargers on the other hand, and especially non-tethered ones, need to be binned. They're absolutely not fit for purpose.
My own issue is locations that ONLY have Tesla chargers (that in reality are not compatible with some ccs cars even when they say they are open to 'all' - and worse, shopping centres with Tesla chargers that AREN'T open to all.)
No. 50Kw is way to fast. My BMW i3 would be full from empty in less than 1 hour at 50Kw. Most people will arrive here at maybe 50% or more state of charge and for me that means less than 30mins on a 50Kw charger. 11Kw is sensible at a shopping mall.
7-11Kw chargers are perfect for these areas. I don't want to run to the shop then run back before I have finished my purchase because it is charged already.
Agree but they should have provided 20 at least not 4 :-) and keep the cost sensible for these like less than 50p
It’s not the issue that they are fast chargers but the fact there are so few - My local village’s, Ashtead, car park has 10!
Dave one of those fast charging posts is £0.59 kWh the other one is £0.00p kWh
The 50kW one is £0.77p kWh.
The Tesla chargers that are open to none Tesla EVs are incredibly (notably Trafford park) busy and you will be lucky to be able to charge between 10pm -11pm which is when the reduced rate per kw starts. Even when you do find a bay they are slow, at best with a preconditioned battery and 4% remaining I got barely past 70 KW speed and then for only a short period. I have used twice, and on both occasions it took over 35 mins to get to 80%. There are no facilities, no shelters or shops available at that time either. As the price for charging (with membership cards) for none EVs is the same for Tesla owners then as more chargers become available for all EVs then Tesla will lose its advantage.
I've been there a couple of times and no issues and no one else arriving had to queue, however it was earlier this year and more and more EVs are on the road so may be an issue now, truth is, people will seek the cheapest normally, just like petrol and diesel prices.
@ I noted several large delivery fans charging - no drivers in or near the vehicles so perhaps they are charging overnight? I would normally go to Stockport as Trafford is rather busy, but they have the fast chargers out of commission (4 weeks now). Fortunately I’m able to do most of my charging from home so it wasn’t a moan but rather an observation.
As a southerner, I’m more likely to drive south rather than north. But we have quite a good supply of electric vehicle charging stations here in Hertfordshire!!
sadlyin my area, most of the Tesla charges are used by the non-Tesla cars. So it's always busy
As they are now entitled to...
New game. Down a shot each time you hear "As a Tesla driver" 😂
I feel these location only need a 11Kw charger maximum (at a cheap rate!), the chances are, people are out shopping or watching a film and not in a rush. If they're in a rush, go to a fast charger location. I'd like to see a row of 20+ charging points at 11Kw, that would be nice, but unlikely to happen at the moment (one day it will) as likely to be ICED!
Putting super fast DC chargers in these locations will result in stress, worrying about getting charged by the minute as you run out of the cinema to move your car, so 4 hours max should be sufficient before being charged (even if 100% full).
One of my local sites. Bought our first EV a few weeks ago and went with my wife for one of our first charging experiences. Uttter garbage, almost put her off bothering to drive the EV. We had to leave the site and find somewhere else, so Middlebrook retail park lost all our custom for the day because of this joke of a charging area. As Dave says, time for the park Facilities Manager to move on to another job!
As I’m just about to purchase my first electric campervan, a Nissan eNV200 with electric camping equipment. The shame is that it has a Chademo under the front!!
Personally I run a Citroen Ami and a Dacia Spring. If I'm going to a shopping centre all I need is a top up to get me home. My wife seldom let's me escape in less than 3hrs. Plugged into one of those chargers on either vehicle for 3 hours would be fine.
That gives me an 80 mile round trip in my Ami ( that's a long way in an Ami in one day) or 240 miles round trip in my Dacia,
We looked at the Tesla's, but the cheapest was €44.000, idiotic price.
So we bought the Dongfeng Nammi Box Launch edition for €20.700.
Live is a lot better without paying double.
50 KW is enough when you go shopping. Take your time and have a coffee too😊
The busy seaside resort of Whitby has one rapid charger and about 15 AC posts. Just crazy.
AC posts seems logical - people going to Whitby will be going for the day, so destination charge points are exactly what's needed. 🤷♂
@InBodWeTrust yes that's right, but there needs to be variety. Just one rapid and it's only 50kW.
Used one at West cliff car park whitby. Parked for 2 hours expecting at least 7kw/hr & all I pulled was 3kw/hr nothing more than a top up waste of time really. Much better at Helmsley using the Zest charger where I got 35kw/hr in 50 mins to get me to 80% capacity.
@@GaryMorley-g3k the 4 mer 22kW AC up at St Hilda's are good option, you've just got to watch out for their 9 hour time limit. Still not ideal as the list of parking rules is massive.
Our nearest Morrisons has 6 EV chargers, I have never seen an EV on any of them all ICE.
Probably because they are GeniPoint at 80p or more or broken like ours is.
@@michaeldawson6309 After months of being out of order the charger at our local Morrisons is working again and now accepts card payment.
@@michaeldawson6309 Don't think it's that. There's plenty of cars parked on them, there just not EV's.
2 of the 3 weren't being used ! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yep, and that is because you have to be a member of the "BP Club" (not the real name, but a sarcastic finger pointer by myself). Nobody else can use them for either love or money.
My lads got an apparent in Manchester with underground parking included, I wonder why the landlords don't allow ev's?
Middlebrook 😂 BP will not repair those 11kW units because they would have to make them contactless. They will simply walk away.
I’ve contacted BP and they confirmed this is their policy.
I would have thought they could repair the 11kW without having to upgrade the payment option as the Public Charge Point Regulations only talks about "new installations" over 8kW with retrospective for chargers over 50kW.
I’ve had my Tesla model 3 LR for about 4 months and only charge on granny .
I see a pattern in the UK, instead of putting chargers where they might just be helpful, the tactic is to put them where you also have to pay to park. Rip off Britain strikes again!
Not realy, for destination chargers it more of a parking bay where one can happen to charge. This allows one to charge and return to the car one finished shopping, watching a movie or dining out.
If this was a charging only bay (with a rapid+ charger) one would need to return mid-activity to move the car to a parking bay (paying for parking in that bay).
The issue with this site is a lack of investment to increase the number of chargers.
Hi Dave agree with you on how many old chargers are in these types of retail parks. The only good thing is new modern Ev’s some have very good range. My current car upwards to 300 miles and the other car I’m considering will cover well over 350 miles. So thankfully I don’t need to use the charging network unless on a long road trips holiday etc then I chose to use the large charging hubs if I need to. As I’m able to charge at home nearly all the time.
Like many poorer areas there have been no upgrades usually due to low usage. Bolton has a high number of terraced housing so it's likely an area that will adopt EVs later than other areas.
So it will probably only be business customers that will be using them at the moment like that BMW or the Maxus T90 pickup parked next to you.
Other visitors are likely quite local and can charge at home so have no need to destination charge.
It's not like many people will be visiting from a long distance for a day out. 😂
11kw is not a fast charger! And they probably only output 7kw anyway. In my experience of 11kw chargers they are never anywhere near that.
11Kw is not hard to deliver but it depends on the onboard AC charger capacity of the car. Most are 11Kw. Its fast enough for a shopping experience as you want about 2 hours freedom.
That sort of multi-outlet site seems exactly the sort of place that should have destination charge points. The only issue is that there should be more, and newer.
Those 11kW destination points will need replaced per the law changes anyway as they are >8kW.
The Public Charge Point Regulations only applies to new installations above 8kW. It applies retrospectively to those of 50kW and above so the 11kW wouldn't need to be upgraded to comply.
@@paulweston1106 good point ... I was conflating the two items 👍
A lot of us don't even have CCS, Dave. :)
I hate shopping and even I could manage to get some reasonable added range from a 50kW charger in the time it takes me to buy a pair of trousers.
I've said this before but look at the non-Tesla provision at the services on the M40 Northbound. Warwick Services in particular is very poorly served.
Me too. By the time I walked to the shops and found what I wanted my i3 would be almost full.
I'm getting my first EV next year and wouldn't even consider buying anything else other than Tesla. Why would you with expensive, unreliable, slow chargers like these?
Bit short sighted to only consider a Tesla. Plenty of other models p, cheaper and nearly as efficient as a Tesla. This is a poor example of a charging bay but it is far from typical. I have no problems whatever finding places to charge my Kona the few times I have to use public chargers.
There are plenty of fast chargers for non-tesla, personally, I wouldn't touch a tesla out of principle, I think most people know what I mean by this.
Dave it cant be that good of a location or busy enough, busy Tesla would be there with a 12 / 18 or 24 bay hub and it would be "Open to all". Own goal scored, Tongue firmly in cheek.
Not everyone can afford a Tesla, Dave. The acceleration and top speed puts insurance premiums at the top end. 50 Kw is plenty fast enough if stopping for 45 minutes. Are we to see 400 volt cars sidelined in the next few years as newer models go 800 volt?
Great video
Hey how much you pay for full charge plus the time you waste.
Also, I would like to see a video of you to give tribute to the fella Scotsman who invented your beloved EVs in 1832.
Man, England is stuck in the stone age with those chargers.
Has it been running reliably for the last 4 years?
Dave, you mention staying at the shopping centre for up 4/5 hours. Not being an Ev owner, are you allowed to leave your car in a charging bay for that length of time? Or do you have to come out of the film half way through to move it?
Varies by location, but the general rule is if its a destination charger (typically 50kw or less) and you pay for parking at the site (i e. not free parking) then the charging bay will be a parking bay as well and you have to pay parking.
If its a transit charger (typically those over 50kW) then its likely you don't pay parking but have to move the car once charged, to a parking bay if intending to stay onsite.
Things vary so it's best to read the signage for the car parks rules, which may limit parking duration.
In the past parking used to be free at chargers but these days this tends to only be the case if non-charging parking is also free.
Yes not many chargers and only one being used ,had to change the channel name after you deleted my comment Dave deletes comments
guessing 10 in total. probs all 7kw
Welp I was wrong. But in fairness there is only one car in there right now!
Have any chargers got a cash slot yet?
OK, and how many fuel pumps do you have there?
Dave, stop harping on with your "get a Tesla mantra" yes the superchargers are great VFM but not everyone can afford to buy a Tesla let alone to be able to afford to insure a car in insurance group 50. This talk about 50kW chargers being rubbish is out of line too as most people buying a reasonable priced used EV will probably get one with a maximum charging speed of 50kW or less, my current cars max charging speed is at most 46kW the car I'm shortly replacing it with maxes out at 50kW, I don't honestly understand the obsession with faster and faster rapid charging speeds, is life so short that you can't manage to wait 30-40 minutes to recharge your EV, charging for 15 minutes is hardly enough time for a toilet break, a sandwich and a coffee, chill out don't be in such a hurry.