The biggest fight for the left is class vs race. These two issues divide the left. One faction of the liberal order are poor whites, poor blacks, poor Hispanics, and poor asians. While the race card is played by small but affluent black boulee in academia, the white liberal who are also bougoussie. The reason why the race card gets screen time is due the the affluence of white liberals and black bougoussie in academia vs the poor whites and poor blacks who are not in such circles like a Ted talks.
Jacobin have got some good content, but dont you think its also a petit-bourgeois/bourgeois outlet, and for a magazine that postures as anti-idpol, arent they also getting some mileage out of this conversation about identity politics and race ? A few years ago Toures dad was firing shots at them for that kind of stuff - there was a brief back and forth on the topic of anti-racism and anti anti-racism between Reed and two Jacobin writers.
@@solimansoliman9806 I saw that episode between anti anti racist and anti racist with adolph Reed. One thing that I noticed is that anti racist and woke tend to be affluent via academia. These folks push race narrative. While it is the poor whites and poor blacks who grew up poor who push class agenda issues. More research needs to be looked at on Waht divides the left on class vs race/identity.
Your observation about liberal elites in academia pushing a race first/only agenda is true, but where does that leave Jacobin, who seem obsessed with idpol issues, and are you including the owner of Jacobin with the working class just because he/his magazine discusses class ? Hes a capitalist trying to sell people socialism.
@@solimansoliman9806 Talking in that reductive way about class seems to almost turn class into just another identity issue, alongside others. That does not seem like Marxist/radical class politics. Class politics is about WHAT you are fighting for, and what you do about it... Not an endless politics of suspicion about WHO you are, and whether you really qualify. If you are for a restructuring of political-economy in favour of somehow liberating the working-class from the oppressions of class rule and profit, then you are an ally. Marx was a university philosophy graduate who married a noblewoman and would have liked nothing better than to be a professor or a journalist. He never worked a manual labour job in his life.
Interesting to hear about these issues from the economic left. Certainly, class has a material basis, unlike race, which is all about social construction.
This is unusual in that, on the one hand, I've found it infuriating the extent to which the 'class-reductionism' charge has succeeded in recent years in clouding the issues and weakening the left on behalf of neoliberalism; so that I therefore welcome the chance to hear critiques of essentialism and 'race reductionism' from Toure´ Reed, Adolph Reed, Jr., et al. But on the other hand, I've also thought that in cases where harms inflicted have been explicitly race-based, then it's justifiable for policies addressing them also to be race-based. Thus, as the harms inflicted by a racially-based slave-labor system were never fully addressed, I've been able to accept the argument for reparations for ADOS. And Ta Nehisi Coates didn't have anything to do with it. The book I remember was 'The Debt,' by Randall Robinson. During his 2000 presidential campaign as the Green party nominee, Ralph Nader praised the book and supported reparations--though 'restitution' was the term he favored, as I recall--mainly in the form of a trust fund, which would have an educational emphasis. Also that campaign, Nader attacked the racist redlining practices by the banking and insurance industries. He would take these positions while running a campaign that was still clearly centered around class; and sure enough, detractors claimed that he was too 'economistic' (they hadn't yet started using terms like 'class-reductionist' and 'lacking intersectionality' as were hurled at Sanders these past two elections). So I'm not sure why, in the course of pushing back at the disingenuous 'class-reductionist' line of attack against an emphasis on class, we need to be dismissive of arguments in favor of reparations and against redlining as necessarily 'race-reductionist'--not to mention as 'affective' rather than 'material' (24:25-25:03; though perhaps Jen was referring to the solutions being advocated rather than the actual inequities they're supposedly addressing?). Also, when they're making the case against the concepts of 'structural racism,' and of racism as 'prejuduce plus power,' my sense is that what they're arguing against isn't so much those ideas as they were originally conceived as the degraded, depreciated form in which they appear today. I never understood 'structure' to mean merely 'the aggregate of attitudes and behaviors'--very much the contrary (structures can shape and influence thought and behavior, and even, in turn, be perpetuated by them, but are distinct from the thought and behavior themselves). So it seems to me that they're arguing against a bastardized use of the term 'structural'--a corruption likely attributable to the influence of neoliberalism, via the professional-managerial class (thank you, Adolph Reed!). Possibly the same for the use of 'power' in the definitional phrase 'prejudice plus power'--seemingly reduced to the mere attribute of 'whiteness,' to the exclusion of other considerations related to power. Again, I don't think it was always this way, i.e., that those who had this understanding of racism had such a race-reductionist conception of the word 'power.'
I agree; too often race is over played. I am not a fan of Ta Nehisi Coates. I do not apreciate liberal definitions of race and the subsequent stereotypes that follow. I dont like lazy interpretations of the most important discussions this country will ever have. I was not fan of the first black President. His rise was a most definitive view of race and class. The problem for me has always been the subjugation of race stuggle to class struggle.
@@mochilover7053 You've missed his point - if race were sine qua non, then Obama would have been the culmination of the black liberation struggle. Yet BLM started under him, following proportionally the greatest number of police killings of black people in the US on record. It's a necessity/sufficiency argument.
@@gamerknown Obama being elected does not dispose of black liberation. The point is he wasn't a black president. He was a neoliberal with a performatively black face. Obama wasn't essential to black liberation, but rather a piece of resistance.
@@gamerknown How about being an actual descendant of slavery from the Americas? He was neither a descendant of slaves, nor was he even brought up with black people. He was essentially white and chosen to hush black politics whenever he could. His job was to put a stop to conversations on race like a game of whack-a-mole. Which essentially meant hoodwinking black voters.
Class is an economic status but it takes a world view construct to discriminate cast (an under used word) that defines “race” distinct other-ization, subsetting essentially a fantastical superior/inferior paradigm for a famished and evaporating middle class to buy into and perpetuate the deflect and redirect machinations of private capital.
Look I love Reed and Jacobin (I watched this live) but can you change the thumbnail of this video? I want to share this but it’s going to piss people off and look like conservative race nonsense
@thenewmiLONNIEum no buddy, I’m a fan of both Touré and Jacobin like I said. I actually read Touré‘s last book (and his father’s book class notes which in the same vein). I get the content. What you don’t get is that me sharing this on online platforms is going to turn liberal identiarians off unnecessarily. I’m trying to actually get them to listen. The point is it’d be great if the thumbnail didn’t look like a Ben Shapiro video so people would engage with the content
Kendi has a whole chapter in How to be an Antiracist that dispels the whole power+prejudice model of racism. I find it frustrating that he never incorporates that into his public messaging
Great discussion. I love the conversation type format. Does anyone have any recommendations for good RUclips channels that have a similar format? Conversation, debate, panel discussion? Not only interested in politics and social issues, but on various topics, like science and religion, history, psychology, with intelligent discussion with a variety of perspectives?
Maybe check out Novara Media - more focused on British politics (but they cover international news), from a socialist perspective. Their flagship show Tyskie Sour goes live 3 times a week and is in a similar format to Jacobin, and their interviews and experts are excellent. Other than that, leftist philosopher Ben Burgis is doing more conversational / podcast stuff on RUclips, and there's a tonne of good leftist podcasts to check out - A World To Win, Intercepted, Trillbillies, Left Reckoning, The Michael Brooks Show (RIP), Politics Theory Other, and if you're more into 'the dirtbag left' (still socialist but a bit more sweary and angry about it all) Chapo Traphouse, Cum Town and Low Society.
Red Star Radio has put out some good content on youtube, and currently does a good podcast with a Canadian co-host. This Is Revolution is also worth checking out.
I support reparations, but I think the way in which the current proposals in CA financializes the solution really underlines how far we have to go. The Great Recession virtually wiped out wealth of black Americans after financial institutions hooked many working class citizens with predatory loans. Here we are now, discussing how we can give massive payments to people through likely the same financial institutions. All said and done, it’s a transfer of public wealth to private institutions, the same ones that bear the blame for the greatest recent systemic injustice.
To me, race reductionism reduces racism to a psychological condition that all White people have, so that implicit racist attitudes are seen as the source of racism. In this sense, capitalism, and social class status, are rendered largely irrelevant to the issue.
Not only that, but it often has the affect of excusing racist behavior that isn't explicit. If it's just somehow "in white people's nature" to be racist, then it can actually make it a lot harder to hold those who act racist accountable as long as they are subtle in their racism!
Instead of reparations, go into neighborhoods in west Baltimore and other poor black areas and just give a ton of money and then spend physical money on physically building the physical things in that neighborhood!
you don't need to ignore systemic racism in order to focus on class. You can do two things at one time, it doesn't have to be either or. Are they saying that systemic racism doesn't exist?
I think most of the real social democrats do focus on both. Think for example how Cornell West or Sanders will include people and then focus on a shared goal like universal healthcare and education. And they are smeared by the mainstream when they do. The issue is the Neoliberals and corporatists appropriate identity based politics in the cheapest way possible. For example instead of actually supplying everyone free education opportunities or healthcare they will support con-artists like Robyn DiAngelo to provide corporate trainings. What is really going on is a bait a switch. If Neoliberal politicians want to demonstrate they really care about minorities they should be providing free legal services to combat real issues of discrimination. In other words something substantial. Neoliberals will milk the fact that they elected Harris as mascot who maintains the status quo and maintained a cheap prison labor system for the corporate bottom line.
These two women don't really see the big picture. Thornhill is confused as she feels guilt and as she has to defend her white half. Jen pan...she is like the Asian version of Candice Owens.
At 31:30 Thornhill, in taking about reparations, went on to point out her partial White ancestry, and speculated how this impacts her eligibility for reparations. Ironically the acronym ADOS, which is used by a group to specify who exactly should receive reparations, would have White people also receiving reparations, if the acronym is taken literally word for word. It stands for American Descendants of SLAVERY - not slaves - slavery. Slavery requires someone enslaved and someone holding them as a slave, therefore descendants of both, can be said to be descendants of slavery, if you are going to use descent in this manner. The group has tried to put themselves out front on social media, on the issue, and has created a fuss with the Black Nationalist/Pan Africanist oriented groups that have always been in the forefront of this issue. They target Black Immigrates for what they call profiting off of native Black-Americans suffering, sacrifice, struggles, etc.. This seems to be the motivation for there need for a designation to separate native Black-Americans from other Black people those who are not due reparations. This is really laughable as half the government don't want to pay reparations anyway. The government is not likely to pay anyone they are not obligated to pay.
Sometimes it seems like listening interventions from an ivory tower, where logic and rationality cannot reflects the real world, where old superstitions and bigotries (like racism) still dominate.
Funny watching Arielle with American Slave Coast displayed behind her while they all engage in dishonest discussions about real issues. It’s a great book, one that invalidates every talking point on the entire interview. Sorry to hear no one on the show has read it yet lol
So much I disagree with here but so many assumption of what is being said in the public discourse. What black person of privilege is going to say to a white person economically suffering where is my reperations. These derived circumstances are absurd. The idea of reperations isn't about class struggle. It is about getting to a point where class struggle is a possibility. There is no class struggle when one class does not have the means to aproach a struggle without first having to break free of the restraints that have kept them from entering the struggle in the first place.
Toure Reed addressed this specifically when he remarked, "My doctor looking like me is not worth much when I can't even see a doctor because we have privatized healthcare." One reparations check could be down the toilet in a month if, say, that person or their family had a medical emergency. I think there point is, reparations checks will be heavily bureacratized, inefficient and require lots of insulting and invasive proofs, while something like universal healthcare or stronger worker protections is an enduring improvement that will have an immediate positive impact on poor black people while also at the same time strengthening the working class as a whole (which of course will be good for poor blacks who will benefit from further wins from a more robust working class).
@@willceurvels that’s a historical. Anytime “all Americans” get anything “black Americans” get the worst of what’s available. We have public education what quality of education do “black Americans” have? All these “universal” programs don’t fix race. Reparations checks should be multi-generational and be more than just one single check. Direct payment are a must but it shouldn’t be the only thing. Anybody who is speaking in opposition of reparations is anti-justice. Don’t care if its Toure reed, adolph reed or Andy Reid.
@@demionriddick4809 I think the Reeds' point is that this idea that the plight of black americans is exclusively a product of race is exactly what society's elite want you to think, because it distracts from the fact that blacks have also been massively screwed over by capitalist regressive redistribution. Just take the example of schools that you bring up for instance. Why is it that schools that black children living in poverty attend are usually worse than their white counterparts? Isn't it just because neoliberal governments have been working to defund public schools (and public programs in general) and prop up charter (paid) schools all across the country? Rich white public schools can rely on donations, but but what do predominantly black schools have to rely on? Naturally it's state funding. If that isn't there those schools ain't getting any better.
I think the black rich class are perfectly able to engage in class struggle, and actually they do everyday. You say that this discourse doesn’t occur which may be true in ur space but it’s not true for me. I have seen it a lot.
Is it possible that race and class can never be a disaggregated in any substantive way. At least in the USA. To segregate race from class in our country seems to me as futile as removing water from the cement of a foundation.
A structural approach is "ACAB", the alternative is "bad apples". Firing "bad actors" is not a structural solution. A structural solution would be community policing for example or changing the organisational structure to allow for more accountabiliity and transparancy. Structural racism is brought up explicitly as a counter to particularist scapegoating. You're literally engaging in doublespeak and flipping the meaning of words. The fact is, you don't actually have a coherent rebuttal to a systemic approach to racism, you just get off being contrarian with word games. The truth is, the kind of inclusive, intersectionist, identity based solidarity on the left today is something that's unprecedented in history. It allows us to both recognise our disparate identities and experiences and to unite in spite of them, rather than pretending that we don't see color. The ability for someone to fight for someone else's interests without an expectation of direct and immediate benefit to themselves is a positive shift and is a much stronger foundation for leftist movements than a foundation of short term transactional alliances.
@Lone Star Nice dodge. I imagine you think their race has nothing to do with it. I suppose these same "capitalists" are also soley responsible for the holocaust and definitely not all the German socio-political institutions that actively participated in or stood by and let it happen. It sure is convenient to be able to blame everything on "the capitalists" isn't it. If not for these darn "capitalists" no one would ever see color.
@Lone Star This is some A-grade historical revisionism. Hateful bigotry basically don't exist right? Everything is just eCoNoMiC AnXiEtY. Class reductionism in a nutshell.
@Lone Star I'm like 90% sure you're a teenager so you probably have no idea how embarassing it is for you that you that you think the term "class reductionism" was made up by Vaush fans. But you will soon enough. Literally nobody who calls themselves leftist doesn't take material conditions into account. Even Vaush's analysis is based in materalism. It's just that he doesn't divorce it from identity, whereas people like you insist on acting as though you can explain away bigotry with materialism. Bigotry is a monke brain glitch that preceeds capitalism and to think otherwise exposes your complete lack of knowledge. Try and do some reading on civil rights to see if you can find any effective pushes for civil liberties that wasn't based in identity politics.
@Lone Star Sure dude. You totally didn't mean to say that Vaush fans made up "class reductionism" as a smear. FYI It's not any less embarassing to think that the use of a technical term older than Vaush himself is a youtube thing. You clearly don't know a lot of things and your entire knowledge of politics is based on a handful of youtube channels. The only claim I made was that a structural approach to tackling racism is good and identity politics is compatible with and a necessary part of any competent, good faith class analysis. Why would you have any problem with that if you're not a class reductionist? I'm being patient with you because I ultimately see your interest in these issues as a good thing and I want to encourage you to learn more. Recognising the fact that race is a social construct that still affects people's lives doesn't make you a race essentialist. You won't find any instance of civil rights wins that didn't involve a foundation of identity politics, yet they were often multi-identity coalitions. Identity politics works, and Touree is just a concern troll.
Definitely a class reductionist. No need to ask around. The reasons why capitalism is unfair has everything to do with its rise. Not everyone experiences their SELF INDUCED subjectification the same. I've literally never heard of someone who was a poc, a liberal AND anti-capitalist. You guys would rather have the liberal anticapitalists regardless of color so you can convince them that they don't have any concerns and struggles that you literally can't understand. This is a long way of saying that I hear in this a bunch of protected petite bourgeois trying to tell us poc what is best for US based on what they have read rather than experienced and carefully contemplated. If you ACTUALLY knew your history, you would see the liberals intentionally trying to feed the leftists to the fascists in order to save their own power not unlike the German Revolution, whose failure sparked our stolen futures.
With respect to the $38,000 hand bag racism; the sad part is that it happened in Denmark, after she was discovering what a great place it was and how it 'cares' about the people who live there. Clearly, the HC Andersen fairy tale experiment is still evolving.
PLEASE!!!! PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! STOP using the line "thanks for having me", its so pathetic, and demeaning. not to mention very unLeft. do stop, and you'll be a much better person for it.
Yikes. Sometimes you can’t tell if this is a far left show or an extremely far right show. A lot of interesting rhetoric going on here. Class reductionism at its absolute finest
Can you like define what class reductionism is ? Is Reed suggesting that racism doesn’t exist or that a social democratic or socialist system would completely eradicate racism ? iight I’m glad you think Kendi’s books will help raise the minimum wage and close for-profit prisons then !
Tbh, I honestly don't understand how this is the takeaway you got from this. Their discussion was not class-reductionist, it reaffirmed that race, as all other categories of identity such as sex, gender, ability, lie at and are intensified by an intersection with capitalism. They absolutely did not say that racism was merely a function of capitalism! In what world is what they're advocating far-right?
This is what most privileged libs do when any discussion of class takes places. There are even self described ‘socialists’ who use this term. It’s embarrassing as it shows they can’t even hear what’s being said. They must equate it to ‘class reductionism’ or ‘right wing rhetoric’ Maybe time to broaden your horizon, take in some different opinions etc.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Jacobin Show has the best guests.
The biggest fight for the left is class vs race. These two issues divide the left. One faction of the liberal order are poor whites, poor blacks, poor Hispanics, and poor asians. While the race card is played by small but affluent black boulee in academia, the white liberal who are also bougoussie. The reason why the race card gets screen time is due the the affluence of white liberals and black bougoussie in academia vs the poor whites and poor blacks who are not in such circles like a Ted talks.
Jacobin have got some good content, but dont you think its also a petit-bourgeois/bourgeois outlet, and for a magazine that postures as anti-idpol, arent they also getting some mileage out of this conversation about identity politics and race ? A few years ago Toures dad was firing shots at them for that kind of stuff - there was a brief back and forth on the topic of anti-racism and anti anti-racism between Reed and two Jacobin writers.
@@solimansoliman9806 I saw that episode between anti anti racist and anti racist with adolph Reed. One thing that I noticed is that anti racist and woke tend to be affluent via academia. These folks push race narrative. While it is the poor whites and poor blacks who grew up poor who push class agenda issues. More research needs to be looked at on Waht divides the left on class vs race/identity.
Your observation about liberal elites in academia pushing a race first/only agenda is true, but where does that leave Jacobin, who seem obsessed with idpol issues, and are you including the owner of Jacobin with the working class just because he/his magazine discusses class ? Hes a capitalist trying to sell people socialism.
@@solimansoliman9806 So was Engels
@@solimansoliman9806 Talking in that reductive way about class seems to almost turn class into just another identity issue, alongside others. That does not seem like Marxist/radical class politics. Class politics is about WHAT you are fighting for, and what you do about it... Not an endless politics of suspicion about WHO you are, and whether you really qualify. If you are for a restructuring of political-economy in favour of somehow liberating the working-class from the oppressions of class rule and profit, then you are an ally. Marx was a university philosophy graduate who married a noblewoman and would have liked nothing better than to be a professor or a journalist. He never worked a manual labour job in his life.
Touré was really on his game in this interview. This is definitely his best interview or segmant on class reductionism.
Arielle Thornhill you are doing great ! Keep it up
Interesting to hear about these issues from the economic left. Certainly, class has a material basis, unlike race, which is all about social construction.
the "liberal left" in the us is on the international spectrum on the center right (especially economically).
Your distinction between class and race is facile
Stop eating Popeye's for breakfast is a truly bizarre complaint. Pure cultural snobbery.
Ask what you can do for you country! lol
Reminds me of Biden's "put the record player, I mean the radio on at night"
No one can say that cash payments to the descendants of American chattel slaves is unfair. This talk only discussed it as being unlikely.
Would like to include Professor Sandy Darity (From Here to Reparations author) in this conversation.
Darity has a criteria and the means to achieve this.
Ariella has not looked at every platform...
This is unusual in that, on the one hand, I've found it infuriating the extent to which the 'class-reductionism' charge has succeeded in recent years in clouding the issues and weakening the left on behalf of neoliberalism; so that I therefore welcome the chance to hear critiques of essentialism and 'race reductionism' from Toure´ Reed, Adolph Reed, Jr., et al.
But on the other hand, I've also thought that in cases where harms inflicted have been explicitly race-based, then it's justifiable for policies addressing them also to be race-based. Thus, as the harms inflicted by a racially-based slave-labor system were never fully addressed, I've been able to accept the argument for reparations for ADOS. And Ta Nehisi Coates didn't have anything to do with it. The book I remember was 'The Debt,' by Randall Robinson. During his 2000 presidential campaign as the Green party nominee, Ralph Nader praised the book and supported reparations--though 'restitution' was the term he favored, as I recall--mainly in the form of a trust fund, which would have an educational emphasis. Also that campaign, Nader attacked the racist redlining practices by the banking and insurance industries. He would take these positions while running a campaign that was still clearly centered around class; and sure enough, detractors claimed that he was too 'economistic' (they hadn't yet started using terms like 'class-reductionist' and 'lacking intersectionality' as were hurled at Sanders these past two elections).
So I'm not sure why, in the course of pushing back at the disingenuous 'class-reductionist' line of attack against an emphasis on class, we need to be dismissive of arguments in favor of reparations and against redlining as necessarily 'race-reductionist'--not to mention as 'affective' rather than 'material' (24:25-25:03; though perhaps Jen was referring to the solutions being advocated rather than the actual inequities they're supposedly addressing?).
Also, when they're making the case against the concepts of 'structural racism,' and of racism as 'prejuduce plus power,' my sense is that what they're arguing against isn't so much those ideas as they were originally conceived as the degraded, depreciated form in which they appear today. I never understood 'structure' to mean merely 'the aggregate of attitudes and behaviors'--very much the contrary (structures can shape and influence thought and behavior, and even, in turn, be perpetuated by them, but are distinct from the thought and behavior themselves). So it seems to me that they're arguing against a bastardized use of the term 'structural'--a corruption likely attributable to the influence of neoliberalism, via the professional-managerial class (thank you, Adolph Reed!). Possibly the same for the use of 'power' in the definitional phrase 'prejudice plus power'--seemingly reduced to the mere attribute of 'whiteness,' to the exclusion of other considerations related to power. Again, I don't think it was always this way, i.e., that those who had this understanding of racism had such a race-reductionist conception of the word 'power.'
Jen and Ariella are a joy to listen to in any conversation.
I agree; too often race is over played. I am not a fan of Ta Nehisi Coates. I do not apreciate liberal definitions of race and the subsequent stereotypes that follow. I dont like lazy interpretations of the most important discussions this country will ever have. I was not fan of the first black President. His rise was a most definitive view of race and class. The problem for me has always been the subjugation of race stuggle to class struggle.
Obama really didn't implicate race in his campaign, but the backlash to him being elected did.
@@mochilover7053 You've missed his point - if race were sine qua non, then Obama would have been the culmination of the black liberation struggle. Yet BLM started under him, following proportionally the greatest number of police killings of black people in the US on record. It's a necessity/sufficiency argument.
@@gamerknown Obama being elected does not dispose of black liberation. The point is he wasn't a black president. He was a neoliberal with a performatively black face. Obama wasn't essential to black liberation, but rather a piece of resistance.
@@mochilover7053 How do we distinguish between those who are authentically and performatively black?
@@gamerknown How about being an actual descendant of slavery from the Americas? He was neither a descendant of slaves, nor was he even brought up with black people. He was essentially white and chosen to hush black politics whenever he could. His job was to put a stop to conversations on race like a game of whack-a-mole. Which essentially meant hoodwinking black voters.
These guys have some really refreshing voices. Thanks
thank you so much for this, so incredibly clarifying, whatever you three are doing, sign me up!
Class is an economic status but it takes a world view construct to discriminate cast (an under used word) that defines “race” distinct other-ization, subsetting essentially a fantastical superior/inferior paradigm for a famished and evaporating middle class to buy into and perpetuate the deflect and redirect machinations of private capital.
Watching this over a year later. Biden did nothing.
Look I love Reed and Jacobin (I watched this live) but can you change the thumbnail of this video? I want to share this but it’s going to piss people off and look like conservative race nonsense
I absolutely agree.
"Nonsense" as in content of your character, eh? As in elementary academic freedom? Oh you lefties... CS
@@carlscott4180 yes. Thinking a thumbnail is stupid = academic censorship. You guys are the best, eh
@thenewmiLONNIEum no buddy, I’m a fan of both Touré and Jacobin like I said. I actually read Touré‘s last book (and his father’s book class notes which in the same vein). I get the content. What you don’t get is that me sharing this on online platforms is going to turn liberal identiarians off unnecessarily. I’m trying to actually get them to listen. The point is it’d be great if the thumbnail didn’t look like a Ben Shapiro video so people would engage with the content
link without the thumbnail, most sites let you remove the thumbnail from any link
Kendi has a whole chapter in How to be an Antiracist that dispels the whole power+prejudice model of racism. I find it frustrating that he never incorporates that into his public messaging
Ariella is right. 'Structural racism' suggests that there's basically not much we can do about it.
Great conversation. I do think that the out of hand dismissal of the American Descendants of Slavery is churlish and isn't a good look.
ados cant be dismissed out of hand, despite how problematic they are, agreed.
@@tmsphere The ones who are wealthy should totally be dismissed.
Great discussion. I love the conversation type format. Does anyone have any recommendations for good RUclips channels that have a similar format? Conversation, debate, panel discussion? Not only interested in politics and social issues, but on various topics, like science and religion, history, psychology, with intelligent discussion with a variety of perspectives?
Maybe check out Novara Media - more focused on British politics (but they cover international news), from a socialist perspective. Their flagship show Tyskie Sour goes live 3 times a week and is in a similar format to Jacobin, and their interviews and experts are excellent.
Other than that, leftist philosopher Ben Burgis is doing more conversational / podcast stuff on RUclips, and there's a tonne of good leftist podcasts to check out - A World To Win, Intercepted, Trillbillies, Left Reckoning, The Michael Brooks Show (RIP), Politics Theory Other, and if you're more into 'the dirtbag left' (still socialist but a bit more sweary and angry about it all) Chapo Traphouse, Cum Town and Low Society.
@@enciam3680 Awesome. Thanks!
Red Star Radio has put out some good content on youtube, and currently does a good podcast with a Canadian co-host. This Is Revolution is also worth checking out.
@@solimansoliman9806 Thanks!
The Wright Show with Robert Wright
I support reparations, but I think the way in which the current proposals in CA financializes the solution really underlines how far we have to go. The Great Recession virtually wiped out wealth of black Americans after financial institutions hooked many working class citizens with predatory loans. Here we are now, discussing how we can give massive payments to people through likely the same financial institutions. All said and done, it’s a transfer of public wealth to private institutions, the same ones that bear the blame for the greatest recent systemic injustice.
The hand bag issue is an example of what racism, naked, is...in Denmark that is supposed to be so good. where all my ancestors lie xoxox
The reality of China is a game changer. The need for competent citizens is a do or die situation. Thanks for the discussion.
I don't really see Affirmative Action as fundamentally different as Reparations.
The needs are still here and the prisons are still full of the wrong people.
To me, race reductionism reduces racism to a psychological condition that all White people have, so that implicit racist attitudes are seen as the source of racism. In this sense, capitalism, and social class status, are rendered largely irrelevant to the issue.
Not only that, but it often has the affect of excusing racist behavior that isn't explicit. If it's just somehow "in white people's nature" to be racist, then it can actually make it a lot harder to hold those who act racist accountable as long as they are subtle in their racism!
Instead of reparations, go into neighborhoods in west Baltimore and other poor black areas and just give a ton of money and then spend physical money on physically building the physical things in that neighborhood!
you don't need to ignore systemic racism in order to focus on class. You can do two things at one time, it doesn't have to be either or. Are they saying that systemic racism doesn't exist?
Of course not, but they do not reduce everything to race. That’s the point of being opposed to race reductionism.
I think most of the real social democrats do focus on both. Think for example how Cornell West or Sanders will include people and then focus on a shared goal like universal healthcare and education. And they are smeared by the mainstream when they do.
The issue is the Neoliberals and corporatists appropriate identity based politics in the cheapest way possible.
For example instead of actually supplying everyone free education opportunities or healthcare they will support con-artists like Robyn DiAngelo to provide corporate trainings. What is really going on is a bait a switch.
If Neoliberal politicians want to demonstrate they really care about minorities they should be providing free legal services to combat real issues of discrimination. In other words something substantial.
Neoliberals will milk the fact that they elected Harris as mascot who maintains the status quo and maintained a cheap prison labor system for the corporate bottom line.
These two women don't really see the big picture. Thornhill is confused as she feels guilt and as she has to defend her white half. Jen pan...she is like the Asian version of Candice Owens.
@@kaliskunkog2255 wtf are you even talking about lmao
@@overtonwindowshopper something you won't f'en understand if you didn't know by now. Way above your head i guess.
SSI Recipients like myself have no say, we are subalterns.
Sonder, not everyone experiences that. 29:10
I can't stop laughing at "a heart-centered approach to oppression."
At 31:30 Thornhill, in taking about reparations, went on to point out her partial White ancestry, and speculated how this impacts her eligibility for reparations. Ironically the acronym ADOS, which is used by a group to specify who exactly should receive reparations, would have White people also receiving reparations, if the acronym is taken literally word for word. It stands for American Descendants of SLAVERY - not slaves - slavery. Slavery requires someone enslaved and someone holding them as a slave, therefore descendants of both, can be said to be descendants of slavery, if you are going to use descent in this manner. The group has tried to put themselves out front on social media, on the issue, and has created a fuss with the Black Nationalist/Pan Africanist oriented groups that have always been in the forefront of this issue. They target Black Immigrates for what they call profiting off of native Black-Americans suffering, sacrifice, struggles, etc.. This seems to be the motivation for there need for a designation to separate native Black-Americans from other Black people those who are not due reparations. This is really laughable as half the government don't want to pay reparations anyway. The government is not likely to pay anyone they are not obligated to pay.
Sometimes it seems like listening interventions from an ivory tower, where logic and rationality cannot reflects the real world, where old superstitions and bigotries (like racism) still dominate.
Sound analysis.
I wanna be worth Oprah's handbag
Hear hear!
Funny watching Arielle with American Slave Coast displayed behind her while they all engage in dishonest discussions about real issues. It’s a great book, one that invalidates every talking point on the entire interview.
Sorry to hear no one on the show has read it yet lol
All of this!
saying "right?'" the whole time after saying something is irritating
This is some mighty lightskinned shit.
So much I disagree with here but so many assumption of what is being said in the public discourse. What black person of privilege is going to say to a white person economically suffering where is my reperations. These derived circumstances are absurd. The idea of reperations isn't about class struggle. It is about getting to a point where class struggle is a possibility. There is no class struggle when one class does not have the means to aproach a struggle without first having to break free of the restraints that have kept them from entering the struggle in the first place.
I admire the Reed family greatly but I disagree often to the way they aproach race and class
Toure Reed addressed this specifically when he remarked, "My doctor looking like me is not worth much when I can't even see a doctor because we have privatized healthcare." One reparations check could be down the toilet in a month if, say, that person or their family had a medical emergency. I think there point is, reparations checks will be heavily bureacratized, inefficient and require lots of insulting and invasive proofs, while something like universal healthcare or stronger worker protections is an enduring improvement that will have an immediate positive impact on poor black people while also at the same time strengthening the working class as a whole (which of course will be good for poor blacks who will benefit from further wins from a more robust working class).
@@willceurvels that’s a historical. Anytime “all Americans” get anything “black Americans” get the worst of what’s available. We have public education what quality of education do “black Americans” have? All these “universal” programs don’t fix race. Reparations checks should be multi-generational and be more than just one single check. Direct payment are a must but it shouldn’t be the only thing. Anybody who is speaking in opposition of reparations is anti-justice. Don’t care if its Toure reed, adolph reed or Andy Reid.
@@demionriddick4809 I think the Reeds' point is that this idea that the plight of black americans is exclusively a product of race is exactly what society's elite want you to think, because it distracts from the fact that blacks have also been massively screwed over by capitalist regressive redistribution. Just take the example of schools that you bring up for instance. Why is it that schools that black children living in poverty attend are usually worse than their white counterparts? Isn't it just because neoliberal governments have been working to defund public schools (and public programs in general) and prop up charter (paid) schools all across the country? Rich white public schools can rely on donations, but but what do predominantly black schools have to rely on? Naturally it's state funding. If that isn't there those schools ain't getting any better.
I think the black rich class are perfectly able to engage in class struggle, and actually they do everyday. You say that this discourse doesn’t occur which may be true in ur space but it’s not true for me. I have seen it a lot.
Is it possible that race and class can never be a disaggregated in any substantive way. At least in the USA.
To segregate race from class in our country seems to me as futile as removing water from the cement of a foundation.
A structural approach is "ACAB", the alternative is "bad apples". Firing "bad actors" is not a structural solution. A structural solution would be community policing for example or changing the organisational structure to allow for more accountabiliity and transparancy. Structural racism is brought up explicitly as a counter to particularist scapegoating. You're literally engaging in doublespeak and flipping the meaning of words. The fact is, you don't actually have a coherent rebuttal to a systemic approach to racism, you just get off being contrarian with word games.
The truth is, the kind of inclusive, intersectionist, identity based solidarity on the left today is something that's unprecedented in history. It allows us to both recognise our disparate identities and experiences and to unite in spite of them, rather than pretending that we don't see color. The ability for someone to fight for someone else's interests without an expectation of direct and immediate benefit to themselves is a positive shift and is a much stronger foundation for leftist movements than a foundation of short term transactional alliances.
@Lone Star Why do you suppose it's black people that were enslaved specifically?
@Lone Star Nice dodge. I imagine you think their race has nothing to do with it. I suppose these same "capitalists" are also soley responsible for the holocaust and definitely not all the German socio-political institutions that actively participated in or stood by and let it happen. It sure is convenient to be able to blame everything on "the capitalists" isn't it. If not for these darn "capitalists" no one would ever see color.
@Lone Star This is some A-grade historical revisionism. Hateful bigotry basically don't exist right? Everything is just eCoNoMiC AnXiEtY. Class reductionism in a nutshell.
@Lone Star I'm like 90% sure you're a teenager so you probably have no idea how embarassing it is for you that you that you think the term "class reductionism" was made up by Vaush fans. But you will soon enough. Literally nobody who calls themselves leftist doesn't take material conditions into account. Even Vaush's analysis is based in materalism. It's just that he doesn't divorce it from identity, whereas people like you insist on acting as though you can explain away bigotry with materialism. Bigotry is a monke brain glitch that preceeds capitalism and to think otherwise exposes your complete lack of knowledge. Try and do some reading on civil rights to see if you can find any effective pushes for civil liberties that wasn't based in identity politics.
@Lone Star Sure dude. You totally didn't mean to say that Vaush fans made up "class reductionism" as a smear. FYI It's not any less embarassing to think that the use of a technical term older than Vaush himself is a youtube thing. You clearly don't know a lot of things and your entire knowledge of politics is based on a handful of youtube channels. The only claim I made was that a structural approach to tackling racism is good and identity politics is compatible with and a necessary part of any competent, good faith class analysis. Why would you have any problem with that if you're not a class reductionist?
I'm being patient with you because I ultimately see your interest in these issues as a good thing and I want to encourage you to learn more. Recognising the fact that race is a social construct that still affects people's lives doesn't make you a race essentialist. You won't find any instance of civil rights wins that didn't involve a foundation of identity politics, yet they were often multi-identity coalitions. Identity politics works, and Touree is just a concern troll.
Definitely a class reductionist. No need to ask around. The reasons why capitalism is unfair has everything to do with its rise. Not everyone experiences their SELF INDUCED subjectification the same. I've literally never heard of someone who was a poc, a liberal AND anti-capitalist. You guys would rather have the liberal anticapitalists regardless of color so you can convince them that they don't have any concerns and struggles that you literally can't understand. This is a long way of saying that I hear in this a bunch of protected petite bourgeois trying to tell us poc what is best for US based on what they have read rather than experienced and carefully contemplated.
If you ACTUALLY knew your history, you would see the liberals intentionally trying to feed the leftists to the fascists in order to save their own power not unlike the German Revolution, whose failure sparked our stolen futures.
With respect to the $38,000 hand bag racism; the sad part is that it happened in Denmark, after she was discovering what a great place it was and how it 'cares' about the people who live there. Clearly, the HC Andersen fairy tale experiment is still evolving.
Switzerland
PLEASE!!!! PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! STOP using the line "thanks for having me", its so pathetic, and demeaning. not to mention very unLeft. do stop, and you'll be a much better person for it.
I don't get it. What's wrong with saying thanks for having me?
Yikes. Sometimes you can’t tell if this is a far left show or an extremely far right show. A lot of interesting rhetoric going on here. Class reductionism at its absolute finest
shut up lib
Can you like define what class reductionism is ? Is Reed suggesting that racism doesn’t exist or that a social democratic or socialist system would completely eradicate racism ? iight I’m glad you think Kendi’s books will help raise the minimum wage and close for-profit prisons then !
Tbh, I honestly don't understand how this is the takeaway you got from this. Their discussion was not class-reductionist, it reaffirmed that race, as all other categories of identity such as sex, gender, ability, lie at and are intensified by an intersection with capitalism. They absolutely did not say that racism was merely a function of capitalism! In what world is what they're advocating far-right?
This is what most privileged libs do when any discussion of class takes places.
There are even self described ‘socialists’ who use this term. It’s embarrassing as it shows they can’t even hear what’s being said.
They must equate it to ‘class reductionism’ or ‘right wing rhetoric’
Maybe time to broaden your horizon, take in some different opinions etc.
It’s amazing how many times he will say racism is real and important and y’all still find a way to call him a class reductionist lmao.