1:30:30 "If fulfilling your dream requires you to not pay people enough to live on, then maybe you should dream a different dream." - A. Reed Jr. What a legend.
This was one of the best and important discussions on how the identitarians undermine class consciousness and work to destroy a multiracial unity that can challenge the imperial oligarchs. Much love to these thinkers pushing back against this ruling class project.
I have come back to this panel discussion a few times since it came out, each time learning more and with a new angle or insight to consider. Thanks for sharing..
Fantastic panellists. My dad who was in the SACP explained to me in the 1980s that the difference betweeen racialism and racism is that racialism is the policies and project to discriminate and socially engineer on the basis of race, and racism is the belief that races exist. Much ink has flowed since to arrive at the same understanding. Dr. Magibane's take down of sociogy as a discipline, reflexively validating and essentializing race by making it an object of study, as if it's a really existing category, in particular was brilliant.
Although I think this is a good critique of sociology it makes me wonder how can sociologists study the impact of racialism without studying "race"? By which I mean studying the different outcomes, circumstances, etc. on people in each racialized category
@@shnglbot There's no need to go into any kind of exact categorisation to track the discrimination. The census categories that people self-identify as work fine. There's no need for exact categories because they aren't real to begin with, and approximation is all anyone is working with, including the racists. There's a huge overlay of class discrimination anyway.
Wow. Professor Magubane-powerhouse thinking, analysis. Blew me away. Thank you. Also: serious bonus points for casual Sanford and Son reference in the Q&A ❤️
Dr. Mugabane's explanation on the history of how "class" came to be used as a descriptor rather than an analytical framework is a very helpful insight into how many race reductionists avoid addressing political economy realities.
I’m so happy I stumbled upon this. I’m not a politics student. But I’ve been listening to Dr. Reed lately because the current race narrative is just started to feel off to me. And Dr. Mugabane landed every point. Everyone did.
Fantastic thank you! Dr mugabane was brilliant - very clear and fascinating, I’m new to her. The reeds are great as always - I would love to see a pretty specific breakdown of CRT, I see a lot of discussion and debate of it right now especially in this “heterodox”/centrist space, with a few good critiques but mostly pretty unserious and right leaning and a total absence of actual left perspectives.
@@mimonkey3 yes and pascals been killing it in general! I like and respect dr maccombe a lot but also don’t agree with his analysis ultimately, he and pascal went on bad faith with Briahna joy Gray and andray domise which is worth watching if u haven’t
@@Unclejamsarmy Yes, I saw that. Pascal was brilliant. And Brie tweeted a 2-min mashup of his best lines. Check it out! I agree with you about Maccombe. He's good, but a little too philosophical and removed from actual social-political-historical analysis for my tastes. I didn't get much from Andray Domise, though. He seems to be a race essentialist... but maybe I'm misreading. The best, most eye-opening vid I've seen on This Is Revolution podcast for understanding class conflict within black america was their interview with Preston Smith, II. Incredible: ruclips.net/video/yAHSuEoI6P8/видео.html
Thank you for another great discussion with Drs. Reed, and introducing me to Dr. Mugabane. I learned a lot about the history of sociology. I heard Pinochet banned sociology because he was scared of Marxists. Looks like American fascism just learned how to use it for their own purposes.
Seems to me, the talk of CRT, is really dealing with sociology - how this power dynamic between Whites and others, especially Black people, plays out in society. If true history can't be told in this discussion of society, there is nothing to be gained from it, at least not for anyone not at the upper end of the power pecking order.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720 CRT isn't very complicated... It's actually incredibly simplistic. So overly simplistic it boils everything in high order, nuanced systems down to what are really bonehead level statements and assumptions. To me, CRT is what happens when the Phds being pumped out in degree factories don't have the mathematical skills to deal with statistics in any form, and those factories have so much tax dollar and student loan funded money, the can afford to give out tenure to people who can hardly be called educated... IMO ANYONE with even a BA or BS should have completed all rudimentary entry level calculus courses, period end of story. The waters in the liberal arts have gotten so murky, not much good is coming out of them.
Wonderful conversation, you would all be on my tab! Would love to hear this conversation about Union structure. With a little more "building solidarity" among the rank-and-file. I was a board member of a West Michigan local. When I would mention work limits (10 or 12hr days). A vast majority of members would tell me that's how they make their money! Unions that are successful seem to really adopt the capitalist model. With the managerial class. Peace and solidarity! I loved the shout out 2 Fred and Lamont. Truly glad you didn't go 2 Dr Aunt Esther!
just got to it, literally got out of my chair and walked around the room before i could compose myself - the absolute best rebuttal to representational politics i've ever heard
Amazing panel! These pernicious ideas have affected the black working class - not nearly to the extent of the formally educated but enough to cause alarm.
It's nice to hear people talk about race in a way that isn't completely gaslighting and insane. I feel like I'll get called a white supremacist and lose all employment opportunities if I call out race reductionism and point out the significance of multiracial common interests.
When Doug Jones was elected Senator of Alabama, Charles Barkley spoke about helping his campaign, and lifting up black people AND poor while people. As a white dude who grew up in poverty, I was cheering “yeah, this guy gets it!”
Wasn't William Julius Jennings' analysis about how race specific remedies helped middle class blacks but not poorer blacks. And that the poverty and conditions of poor blacks were due to economic conditions? From a circa 1990 center-left POV?
This was an excellent discussion, but I have trouble accepting Touré 's point, that's echoed almost throughout history departments everywhere, where we are warned against imposing our values on folks back then, especially during slavery. What about the values and feelings of the enslaved and anti-slavery movements of THAT time?
This discussion was amazing but also horrifying and extremely depressing in the sense that, though it beautifully critiques identitarian reductionist thought without flinching, it really just illuminates how bad things really are for Marxists and thus the state of human progress as it currently stands.
@27:48 Reed misses the allegory in The Watchmen. That storyline is literally mirroring the critiques that Reed himself espouses. It's almost like he got trolled by a The Onion article and took the bait.
Excellent conversation. Would love to show at least parts of this at my Federal place of employment. Especially as an antidote to the mandatory “White Fragility” trainings I suspect upper management is planning to require of rank and file employees in the near future.
The youtube algorithm is telling me that Toure Reed is Adolph Reed's son. But I'll be damned if I can't google the info to confirm. Finally found it in a Baltimoresun article. So weird.
Wow that ancestry ad was not even subtle. I don't know what year it's from, but I don't know how that didn't cause an uproar Even the second one was assuming some historic eurocentric ideal of virtue, that being warlords ought to be glorified. Just so wrong on all fronts
Are people with a Phd in humanities or social science from elite universities who choose to teach as adjunct faculty at other elite universities, genuinely precarious? Or are they just slumming?
@1:05:11 Oh man, I absolutely hate that elitist narcissism... I know he's trying to say "don't" do that, don't be judgmental, but that advice and that sentiment is rooted in such a self righteous, condescending place. It's the ultimate hubris to assume that some silly piece of paper (and I have many of my own) on the wall implies you are smarter, or more adapt than other people who are also the descendants of 1000's of generations of successful people. Your skills ARE NOT better, they are different. I live and work in both liberal and conservative circles, and this liberal illusion of ability really does boil my blood sometimes, and it is pervasive... The idea that some silly academic who has never succeeded in the real world outside of publicly funded tenure is some how more capable than a small business owner in a "fly over state" is beyond offensive, and quite honestly makes me shake my head with bewilderment and I have to giggle, it really is that silly to see people so far out of touch with reality...
Are present day Socialist theory reductionist? Where is socialism being practiced in society, where it is called socialism? Where do we see it represented in pop culture, which today is like the equivalent of a person's religion? If it is not seen in pop culture, do people conclude it doesn't exist?
One problem with class reductionism, which is what Adolph Reed Jr. and friends practice, is not that shitlibs are shitlibs. This problem is that many people who are socialism-curious get turned off by the idea, often repeated by A. Reed Jr. and friends, that we should be educating people about class instead of getting distracted with anti-racist activism. [Yes, I'm simplifying, but not that much]. I can agree that Joy Reid is using identity politics to pretend she's the good one while spreading the "let's keep fighting instead of coming together as workers" ideology. But there's absolutely no need to turn people off who might be willing to learn otherwise. If you watch A. Reed Jr. videos often you may have seen him to his trademark drive by attacks on the women of the Combahee River Collective. If you've never seen that, you may not even believe he does this, but I've heard him ask seriously: "why are there black feminist scholars? what do they cover that isn't covered by black studies or feminist studies" and answer to himself: "I think it's about tenure". These women gave us "identity politics" in the 70's and "intersectionality". I've also watched Ben Burgis stop himself several times in the middle of advertising his book about cancel culture to decry the "canceling" of A. Reed Jr. by the DSA who had the temerity of changing the format of his lecture from "conference" to a "debate". Which of course is the real canceling. But I believe we can come together if we argue about these issues. I'll just note that no one invited to this panel was here to argue the opposite point, that sometimes the Class Reductionists go too far and turn some people off.
It's no accident that the progress of Labor movements and civil rights movements came to a dead stop with the rise of identitariamism and racial separatists. Now women have fully lost bodily autonomy...gay marriage and voting rights are next on the chopping block. Meanwhile anti-racists are showing themselves to be virulent judeophobes. This is the legacy of utter failure of the ideology you espouse. What else will be sacrificed on the altar? Its a religion. Period.
But the person with the Serena Williams idea (and Hilary Clinton, btw) was just wrong. Improving treatment for diverse communities is inseparable from improving outcomes for all patients and it (or both) is a fundamentally democratic logic, democratic logics are always opposed by profit logics. The same is true with regard to finance industry (HRC was wrong about something, imagine that!).
I don't agree with Reed Jr.'s version of the development of the notion of poverty as a culture. He leaves out the impact of the Industrial Revolution and the 1st World War on western society, and pop culture which capitalist were instrumental in its creation. If certain traits are not common to people of the lowest class, early media, print, motion, and audio, helped people of the lowest class develop, what can be seen as traits. Criminality began to be glorified, justified, and so to some extent legitimized, where it began to be emulated by significant numbers of people. A more recent iteration of this process took place again among African -Americans in the 70's with Blaxploitation films, which celebrated and glorified Black criminality, bravado, and womanizing. It continued into the Hip-Hop era, which is still with us today. I can understand the reluctance to not lump anti-social behavior onto a particular class, but for Black people in the 50's and 60's they were likely few Black - strictly middle-class - communities. Black communities have largely been integrated, class wise, certainly; the middle-class or working-class and the poor were tightly integrated. Drug addiction is never given the attention it should, in the analysis of the present state of Black communities. Most Blacks today would have you believe a drug epidemic among Black people began with crack. They never mention heroin and the riots of 68', over MLK'S assignation, that precipitated the decline of so many Black communities in the northern cities. In my neighborhood, youth had already been primed to take heroin by first going through the use of model airplane glue, cough syrup, and then barbiturates and amphetamines, in the mid to late sixties. By the early to mid 70's, guns slowly started to appear. It may not be a culture of poverty, but it is no doubt, a culture of criminality that took shape, and which many embraced or tolerated. That is a discussion that we don't seem to want to delve into. Instead all or most attention was shifted to racism and so-called White supremacy, because of the work of the late Dr. Francis Cress Welshing, it seems to me. She and Neeley Fuller Jr. made the terms 'racism white supremacy' and 'systemic racism' household words among us. Ironically, Fuller developed a strategy for Black people to use to counter the effects of these forces on us. It basically asked us to compensate for it, by being more conscientious and mindful in how we live - to take special considerations that a people normally would not have to, because we have this added special disadvantage, that works against our aspirations, as individuals and as a group. Most who focus on RWS, never mention the 'Compensatory Code...' that Fuller developed, and that he and Welshing both advocated. Neither do they even mention the basic idea of having to compensate for this disadvantage. It was not even something that was foreign to Black people, as the older generations of us had always heard the common adage among us, that "we have to be twice as good to get ahead". Today, to have this attitude, is often met with charges of blaming the victims or practicing "respectability politics". Intellectuals like Michael Eric Dyson say we shouldn't even utter the words 'Black on Black crime' in public, because it " makes us look pathological". Who is the one worried about how others see us? He charges anyone Black with calling on Black people to values their lives, and have self respect, with simply doing so because we think they will treat us better, and think more of us. He and others don't think this is done out of pure concern for Black people - that in doing so, those engaged in this self-destructive behavior, are the primary beneficiaries of it. This is the state of the Black community today, and none of our intellectuals even seem willing, if not able, to confront it openly and honestly. All this contradiction and denial has taken place, at a time when Black people have proclaimed to be people, who speak honestly of the truth, as in "right on, keeping it real, down for the cause", and now "woke, facts, 100", and to top it all off, "BLM". If Black Socialist, or Socialist intellectuals especially, want to get into this fray, they had better bring more that just more of the same, weak contradictory, or inadequate analysis and critique. Humanity deserves better. Humanity seriously needs a win - where some major social/political impasse is broken and a lasting resolution is achieved. Israelis and Palestinians could achieve this, and set an example, for other to resolve long standing conflicts. If not them than us in the U.S. with our race and wealth disparity issues, among others. If anything is worth intense competition over, that should be it.
Wait wait wait so if a small business owner can only pay 10 dollars an hour not 15 and because of that they should choose another line of work and check their motivations? This is not smart thinking at all!!! Who is working for the small business, young students? People who just need a bit of extra cash? A retired person who just wants to keep busy? And if the small business can’t get people to work for them then how does that business get any bigger and be able to afford to pay more?? It’s a SMALL business not amazon
Well, maybe instead of voting for policies and candidates that exploit labor, that person should vote for wage subsidies for small businesses so that they can pay living wages. If people can't live on the wage you provide, it's not a job, it's exploitation and the business/owner is a parasite
Race is not just a social construct it is certain biological characteristics and facial features that have developed through biological evolution and inter species breeding, Europeans were originally black with blue eyes, how about you leave science to the scientists,
Nobody denies there are differences, both genotypes and phenotypic, among populations. The issue is ascribing essential behaviors, attitudes, capacities to people, given only information about their race. It removes all agency from people,; it’s an ideology that incorrectly asserts that humans move down a deterministic path, paved solely by genes. The reality is that environment and GxE interactions shape our behavior in addition to our socialization.
I tend to agree with you because of my dislike for sociology and its blessed "social constructs", but would add that these broad genetic trends don't directly map onto the physical differences we deem to be a given race, and that I think you mean intraspecial breeding, because species are apparently defined as being able to produce fertile offspring, so interspecial breeding wouldn't pass down too many traits and happened about 200,000 years ago. I always say race is when a person can tell your parentage by looking at you, and that's pretty well biologically determined.
@@SandhillCrane42 that's where you are wrong there are distinct fearures, for example skin pigment and nasal cavity, which serve biologically purposes based on the location of origin also the term you are using is an old idea, yes originally species were deemed as producing viable off spring, however seeing as neanderthal dna still remains today, and they are seen as a different human species, that concept isn't completely accurate
@@darwin6883 the issue is also when people can't point out culture issues or problems that have nothing to do with race, but a certain race happens to experience it more, single parent households for example have nothing to do with race however are at a larger number in the black community which leads to their societal problems, black culture today isn't even black its adopted poor white culture,
@@escobarlisle6007 That's interesting, I've got a hairy European nose and I heard that Neanderthals had nasal adaptations for cold dry air on T.V. (even though it's some tiny percentage of DNA in the genome and my nose is just hairy). I kind of really dislike the dogmatism behind calling race or gender social constructs, because nobody has ever been able to tell me what a social construct is, and it seems akin to color blindness. I don't consider biology or evolution to be a zero sum game with winners and losers, but I think sociologists are afraid that genetic difference implies a better and a worse (as it has to many racists) so they maintain their pre-genomic view. Do you have some formal background studying genetic demes and that? I'm just an internet person who knows nothing, but my white fragility causes me to suspect there's something biological about the phenotypic differences that accumulate in geographically distinct populations. If one says so one is usually shouted down as a eugenicist. I can swallow what they say insomuch as there are no hard lines between races and interbreeding between all what we call races in their inception, but the aggregate of traits we call race kind of must derive from population genetics. I haven't heard a case for race based behaviors and would be highly skeptical of any. People were bringing tin from Afghanistan to Greece 4000 years ago so they got around. They went elsewhere like the Black Sea and Egypt in those bronze age times. My problem is that it's like saying there's nothing biological about red hair, because it's actually more of an auburn that we call red and some of us assume it comes from Satan.
Wonderful conversation, you would all be on my tab! Would love to hear this conversation about Union structure. With a little more "building solidarity" among the rank-and-file. I was a board member of a West Michigan local. When I would mention work limits (10 or 12hr days). A vast majority of members would tell me that's how they make their money! Unions that are successful seem to really adopt the capitalist model. With the managerial class. Peace and solidarity! I loved the shout out 2 Fred and Lamont. Truly glad you didn't go 2 Dr Aunt Esther!
1:30:30 "If fulfilling your dream requires you to not pay people enough to live on, then maybe you should dream a different dream." - A. Reed Jr.
What a legend.
That is such a good and pithy statement. Of course the person hearing that was pissed off, because our society is in denial about exploitation.
This was one of the best and important discussions on how the identitarians undermine class consciousness and work to destroy a multiracial unity that can challenge the imperial oligarchs. Much love to these thinkers pushing back against this ruling class project.
I have come back to this panel discussion a few times since it came out, each time learning more and with a new angle or insight to consider. Thanks for sharing..
Wow. Prof Magubane is ON FIRE. What a great discussion!
My favorite quote: "diversity under capitalism is where 50% of the top 1% is female and 13% of the top 1% is black..."
Dr. Mugabane is terrific, and --- so is everybody else. It's so wonderful to just hear honest, down to earth, from the bottom up sense. --- Thank you!
Fantastic panellists. My dad who was in the SACP explained to me in the 1980s that the difference betweeen racialism and racism is that racialism is the policies and project to discriminate and socially engineer on the basis of race, and racism is the belief that races exist. Much ink has flowed since to arrive at the same understanding. Dr. Magibane's take down of sociogy as a discipline, reflexively validating and essentializing race by making it an object of study, as if it's a really existing category, in particular was brilliant.
Although I think this is a good critique of sociology it makes me wonder how can sociologists study the impact of racialism without studying "race"? By which I mean studying the different outcomes, circumstances, etc. on people in each racialized category
@@shnglbot There's no need to go into any kind of exact categorisation to track the discrimination. The census categories that people self-identify as work fine. There's no need for exact categories because they aren't real to begin with, and approximation is all anyone is working with, including the racists. There's a huge overlay of class discrimination anyway.
I saw that ancestry DNA ad and was unsettled by it but couldn't explain why. This was helpful.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Thank you Adolph Reed Jr. for your kind and accurate words on Michael Brooks.
Dr. Magubane rocks
Wow.
Professor Magubane-powerhouse thinking, analysis. Blew me away. Thank you.
Also: serious bonus points for casual Sanford and Son reference in the Q&A ❤️
Dr. Mugabane's explanation on the history of how "class" came to be used as a descriptor rather than an analytical framework is a very helpful insight into how many race reductionists avoid addressing political economy realities.
I’m so happy I stumbled upon this. I’m not a politics student. But I’ve been listening to Dr. Reed lately because the current race narrative is just started to feel off to me.
And Dr. Mugabane landed every point. Everyone did.
Fantastic thank you! Dr mugabane was brilliant - very clear and fascinating, I’m new to her. The reeds are great as always - I would love to see a pretty specific breakdown of CRT, I see a lot of discussion and debate of it right now especially in this “heterodox”/centrist space, with a few good critiques but mostly pretty unserious and right leaning and a total absence of actual left perspectives.
Here’s the left take on CTR you asked for: ruclips.net/video/EBsbNMgP09I/видео.html
@@mimonkey3 yes and pascals been killing it in general! I like and respect dr maccombe a lot but also don’t agree with his analysis ultimately, he and pascal went on bad faith with Briahna joy Gray and andray domise which is worth watching if u haven’t
@@Unclejamsarmy Yes, I saw that. Pascal was brilliant. And Brie tweeted a 2-min mashup of his best lines. Check it out!
I agree with you about Maccombe. He's good, but a little too philosophical and removed from actual social-political-historical analysis for my tastes. I didn't get much from Andray Domise, though. He seems to be a race essentialist... but maybe I'm misreading.
The best, most eye-opening vid I've seen on This Is Revolution podcast for understanding class conflict within black america was their interview with Preston Smith, II. Incredible: ruclips.net/video/yAHSuEoI6P8/видео.html
Because the left has been taken over and bullied into silence.
agreed, I"m looking for more of a Left/Marxist critique of CRT and not seeing enough
Amazing discussion, I learned a lot and got some threads to follow to learn more, thanks to everyone involved
Thank you for another great discussion with Drs. Reed, and introducing me to Dr. Mugabane. I learned a lot about the history of sociology.
I heard Pinochet banned sociology because he was scared of Marxists. Looks like American fascism just learned how to use it for their own purposes.
Seems to me, the talk of CRT, is really dealing with sociology - how this power dynamic between Whites and others, especially Black people, plays out in society. If true history can't be told in this discussion of society, there is nothing to be gained from it, at least not for anyone not at the upper end of the power pecking order.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720 CRT isn't very complicated... It's actually incredibly simplistic. So overly simplistic it boils everything in high order, nuanced systems down to what are really bonehead level statements and assumptions. To me, CRT is what happens when the Phds being pumped out in degree factories don't have the mathematical skills to deal with statistics in any form, and those factories have so much tax dollar and student loan funded money, the can afford to give out tenure to people who can hardly be called educated... IMO ANYONE with even a BA or BS should have completed all rudimentary entry level calculus courses, period end of story. The waters in the liberal arts have gotten so murky, not much good is coming out of them.
?.. m. M only mM
@@siriuslyspeaking9720 v c b v c z x
If I were physically in person watching Dr. Magubane, rather than watching this video from home, I would have given her a standing ovation.
very interesting stuff. dr toure reed is so concise with his points and uses examples, makes this extra informative
Shout-out to Ithaca college! I'm glad to see these conversations happening in my area of upstate NY!
Zine is absolutely on fire here.....
and Adolph tossing to "Lamont" has me still crying....
This post is "S" Tier 😏
Wonderful conversation, you would all be on my tab!
Would love to hear this conversation about Union structure. With a little more "building solidarity" among the rank-and-file.
I was a board member of a West Michigan local.
When I would mention work limits (10 or 12hr days). A vast majority of members would tell me that's how they make their money! Unions that are successful seem to really adopt the capitalist model.
With the managerial class.
Peace and solidarity!
I loved the shout out 2 Fred and Lamont.
Truly glad you didn't go 2
Dr Aunt Esther!
What an amazing and refreshing discussion. Thank you to everyone involved.
This was a wonderful discussion. Thanks to all.
Brilliant panel!
Thank you for bringing this discussion to the public space.
Dr. Magubane about calling for more WoC slaveowners was phenomenal framing. I imagine there would be a Simone Brocard grant funded by the DNC.
This was an amazing conversation. Thank you for putting this together.
1:02:34 Awesome. I now love Dr. Magubane.
Amen! Her example was brilliant!
just got to it, literally got out of my chair and walked around the room before i could compose myself - the absolute best rebuttal to representational politics i've ever heard
This is a wonderful discussion!
this was so great! thanks for posting this!!
Amazing panel! These pernicious ideas have affected the black working class - not nearly to the extent of the formally educated but enough to cause alarm.
It's nice to hear people talk about race in a way that isn't completely gaslighting and insane.
I feel like I'll get called a white supremacist and lose all employment opportunities if I call out race reductionism and point out the significance of multiracial common interests.
Cedrick you crushed it!
Her points are very useful. At first I was sort of impatiently lost but then a low simmer turned to a productive boil. Thank you
Great conference. Thank you so much.
Terrific x 3. So much better than others trying to discuss these matters.
When Doug Jones was elected Senator of Alabama, Charles Barkley spoke about helping his campaign, and lifting up black people AND poor while people. As a white dude who grew up in poverty, I was cheering “yeah, this guy gets it!”
Such a great panel.
God, Dr. Zine Magubane is brilliant.
Very helpful talk, relevant to my civic engagement. Thank you
Wasn't William Julius Jennings' analysis about how race specific remedies helped middle class blacks but not poorer blacks. And that the poverty and conditions of poor blacks were due to economic conditions? From a circa 1990 center-left POV?
how about fathers instead of handouts?
This was an excellent discussion, but I have trouble accepting Touré 's point, that's echoed almost throughout history departments everywhere, where we are warned against imposing our values on folks back then, especially during slavery. What about the values and feelings of the enslaved and anti-slavery movements of THAT time?
This discussion was amazing but also horrifying and extremely depressing in the sense that, though it beautifully critiques identitarian reductionist thought without flinching, it really just illuminates how bad things really are for Marxists and thus the state of human progress as it currently stands.
@27:48 Reed misses the allegory in The Watchmen. That storyline is literally mirroring the critiques that Reed himself espouses. It's almost like he got trolled by a The Onion article and took the bait.
thanx, as well smart, clear and friendly
"Pointing out a disparity is not an analysis, even though it seems to be one among the racial capitalism crowd."
adolph reed is messy and im HERE FOR IT.
This is both brilliant and helpful.
Yes, this is great!
Thank you!
Excellent conversation. Would love to show at least parts of this at my Federal place of employment. Especially as an antidote to the mandatory “White Fragility” trainings I suspect upper management is planning to require of rank and file employees in the near future.
Brilliant guests, sadly, you'll not hear these views on network or cable news very often - if at all.
The youtube algorithm is telling me that Toure Reed is Adolph Reed's son. But I'll be damned if I can't google the info to confirm. Finally found it in a Baltimoresun article. So weird.
Wow. Learned a lot! Ty
Where did this channel come from, and why wasn’t I subscribed already?
Brilliant!
Great conversation
Thank you
This was good.
Modern use of "Racial Capitalism" 1:15:35 - 1:17:30
Scholar of sociology? Ok. I'm listening.
Excellent analysis.
2:45
Wow that ancestry ad was not even subtle. I don't know what year it's from, but I don't know how that didn't cause an uproar
Even the second one was assuming some historic eurocentric ideal of virtue, that being warlords ought to be glorified. Just so wrong on all fronts
Dna doesn't dictate personal traits or talents
Are people with a Phd in humanities or social science from elite universities who choose to teach as adjunct faculty at other elite universities, genuinely precarious? Or are they just slumming?
Boy if Toure hates the reparations ep of Watchman, he’s gonna love the end of the season.
Moral labor does not always follow from a moralist society.
Excellent session, thanks!
"We've repackaged the ideology of Nazism as a gift for Dad for Father's Day." That's a worldclass diss.
@1:05:11 Oh man, I absolutely hate that elitist narcissism... I know he's trying to say "don't" do that, don't be judgmental, but that advice and that sentiment is rooted in such a self righteous, condescending place. It's the ultimate hubris to assume that some silly piece of paper (and I have many of my own) on the wall implies you are smarter, or more adapt than other people who are also the descendants of 1000's of generations of successful people. Your skills ARE NOT better, they are different. I live and work in both liberal and conservative circles, and this liberal illusion of ability really does boil my blood sometimes, and it is pervasive... The idea that some silly academic who has never succeeded in the real world outside of publicly funded tenure is some how more capable than a small business owner in a "fly over state" is beyond offensive, and quite honestly makes me shake my head with bewilderment and I have to giggle, it really is that silly to see people so far out of touch with reality...
Any student that can get in to a "fancy" college will be able to go regardless of their families ability to cover tuition.
AMXN!!
Sociologists. The Bane of Mankind.
Are present day Socialist theory reductionist? Where is socialism being practiced in society, where it is called socialism? Where do we see it represented in pop culture, which today is like the equivalent of a person's religion? If it is not seen in pop culture, do people conclude it doesn't exist?
One problem with class reductionism, which is what Adolph Reed Jr. and friends practice, is not that shitlibs are shitlibs.
This problem is that many people who are socialism-curious get turned off by the idea, often repeated by A. Reed Jr. and friends, that we should be educating people about class instead of getting distracted with anti-racist activism. [Yes, I'm simplifying, but not that much].
I can agree that Joy Reid is using identity politics to pretend she's the good one while spreading the "let's keep fighting instead of coming together as workers" ideology. But there's absolutely no need to turn people off who might be willing to learn otherwise.
If you watch A. Reed Jr. videos often you may have seen him to his trademark drive by attacks on the women of the Combahee River Collective. If you've never seen that, you may not even believe he does this, but I've heard him ask seriously: "why are there black feminist scholars? what do they cover that isn't covered by black studies or feminist studies" and answer to himself: "I think it's about tenure".
These women gave us "identity politics" in the 70's and "intersectionality".
I've also watched Ben Burgis stop himself several times in the middle of advertising his book about cancel culture to decry the "canceling" of A. Reed Jr. by the DSA who had the temerity of changing the format of his lecture from "conference" to a "debate". Which of course is the real canceling.
But I believe we can come together if we argue about these issues. I'll just note that no one invited to this panel was here to argue the opposite point, that sometimes the Class Reductionists go too far and turn some people off.
It's no accident that the progress of Labor movements and civil rights movements came to a dead stop with the rise of identitariamism and racial separatists. Now women have fully lost bodily autonomy...gay marriage and voting rights are next on the chopping block. Meanwhile anti-racists are showing themselves to be virulent judeophobes. This is the legacy of utter failure of the ideology you espouse.
What else will be sacrificed on the altar? Its a religion. Period.
But the person with the Serena Williams idea (and Hilary Clinton, btw) was just wrong. Improving treatment for diverse communities is inseparable from improving outcomes for all patients and it (or both) is a fundamentally democratic logic, democratic logics are always opposed by profit logics. The same is true with regard to finance industry (HRC was wrong about something, imagine that!).
I don't agree with Reed Jr.'s version of the development of the notion of poverty as a culture. He leaves out the impact of the Industrial Revolution and the 1st World War on western society, and pop culture which capitalist were instrumental in its creation. If certain traits are not common to people of the lowest class, early media, print, motion, and audio, helped people of the lowest class develop, what can be seen as traits. Criminality began to be glorified, justified, and so to some extent legitimized, where it began to be emulated by significant numbers of people. A more recent iteration of this process took place again among African -Americans in the 70's with Blaxploitation films, which celebrated and glorified Black criminality, bravado, and womanizing. It continued into the Hip-Hop era, which is still with us today. I can understand the reluctance to not lump anti-social behavior onto a particular class, but for Black people in the 50's and 60's they were likely few Black - strictly middle-class - communities. Black communities have largely been integrated, class wise, certainly; the middle-class or working-class and the poor were tightly integrated.
Drug addiction is never given the attention it should, in the analysis of the present state of Black communities. Most Blacks today would have you believe a drug epidemic among Black people began with crack. They never mention heroin and the riots of 68', over MLK'S assignation, that precipitated the decline of so many Black communities in the northern cities. In my neighborhood, youth had already been primed to take heroin by first going through the use of model airplane glue, cough syrup, and then barbiturates and amphetamines, in the mid to late sixties. By the early to mid 70's, guns slowly started to appear. It may not be a culture of poverty, but it is no doubt, a culture of criminality that took shape, and which many embraced or tolerated.
That is a discussion that we don't seem to want to delve into. Instead all or most attention was shifted to racism and so-called White supremacy, because of the work of the late Dr. Francis Cress Welshing, it seems to me. She and Neeley Fuller Jr. made the terms 'racism white supremacy' and 'systemic racism' household words among us. Ironically, Fuller developed a strategy for Black people to use to counter the effects of these forces on us. It basically asked us to compensate for it, by being more conscientious and mindful in how we live - to take special considerations that a people normally would not have to, because we have this added special disadvantage, that works against our aspirations, as individuals and as a group.
Most who focus on RWS, never mention the 'Compensatory Code...' that Fuller developed, and that he and Welshing both advocated. Neither do they even mention the basic idea of having to compensate for this disadvantage. It was not even something that was foreign to Black people, as the older generations of us had always heard the common adage among us, that "we have to be twice as good to get ahead". Today, to have this attitude, is often met with charges of blaming the victims or practicing "respectability politics". Intellectuals like Michael Eric Dyson say we shouldn't even utter the words 'Black on Black crime' in public, because it " makes us look pathological". Who is the one worried about how others see us? He charges anyone Black with calling on Black people to values their lives, and have self respect, with simply doing so because we think they will treat us better, and think more of us. He and others don't think this is done out of pure concern for Black people - that in doing so, those engaged in this self-destructive behavior, are the primary beneficiaries of it.
This is the state of the Black community today, and none of our intellectuals even seem willing, if not able, to confront it openly and honestly. All this contradiction and denial has taken place, at a time when Black people have proclaimed to be people, who speak honestly of the truth, as in "right on, keeping it real, down for the cause", and now "woke, facts, 100", and to top it all off, "BLM". If Black Socialist, or Socialist intellectuals especially, want to get into this fray, they had better bring more that just more of the same, weak contradictory, or inadequate analysis and critique. Humanity deserves better. Humanity seriously needs a win - where some major social/political impasse is broken and a lasting resolution is achieved. Israelis and Palestinians could achieve this, and set an example, for other to resolve long standing conflicts. If not them than us in the U.S. with our race and wealth disparity issues, among others. If anything is worth intense competition over, that should be it.
Wait wait wait so if a small business owner can only pay 10 dollars an hour not 15 and because of that they should choose another line of work and check their motivations? This is not smart thinking at all!!! Who is working for the small business, young students? People who just need a bit of extra cash? A retired person who just wants to keep busy? And if the small business can’t get people to work for them then how does that business get any bigger and be able to afford to pay more?? It’s a SMALL business not amazon
Well, maybe instead of voting for policies and candidates that exploit labor, that person should vote for wage subsidies for small businesses so that they can pay living wages. If people can't live on the wage you provide, it's not a job, it's exploitation and the business/owner is a parasite
Everything is genetic hence ethnic.
Adolf lol
Identitarian ??? why not just say what you meen ... coded language is a form of lying
Identitarian is a mainstream term, those who adhere to identity based politics
@@darwin6883 OK I'll by that ... not the movement ... the explanation .
Race is not just a social construct it is certain biological characteristics and facial features that have developed through biological evolution and inter species breeding, Europeans were originally black with blue eyes, how about you leave science to the scientists,
Nobody denies there are differences, both genotypes and phenotypic, among populations. The issue is ascribing essential behaviors, attitudes, capacities to people, given only information about their race. It removes all agency from people,; it’s an ideology that incorrectly asserts that humans move down a deterministic path, paved solely by genes. The reality is that environment and GxE interactions shape our behavior in addition to our socialization.
I tend to agree with you because of my dislike for sociology and its blessed "social constructs", but would add that these broad genetic trends don't directly map onto the physical differences we deem to be a given race, and that I think you mean intraspecial breeding, because species are apparently defined as being able to produce fertile offspring, so interspecial breeding wouldn't pass down too many traits and happened about 200,000 years ago. I always say race is when a person can tell your parentage by looking at you, and that's pretty well biologically determined.
@@SandhillCrane42 that's where you are wrong there are distinct fearures, for example skin pigment and nasal cavity, which serve biologically purposes based on the location of origin also the term you are using is an old idea, yes originally species were deemed as producing viable off spring, however seeing as neanderthal dna still remains today, and they are seen as a different human species, that concept isn't completely accurate
@@darwin6883 the issue is also when people can't point out culture issues or problems that have nothing to do with race, but a certain race happens to experience it more, single parent households for example have nothing to do with race however are at a larger number in the black community which leads to their societal problems, black culture today isn't even black its adopted poor white culture,
@@escobarlisle6007 That's interesting, I've got a hairy European nose and I heard that Neanderthals had nasal adaptations for cold dry air on T.V. (even though it's some tiny percentage of DNA in the genome and my nose is just hairy). I kind of really dislike the dogmatism behind calling race or gender social constructs, because nobody has ever been able to tell me what a social construct is, and it seems akin to color blindness. I don't consider biology or evolution to be a zero sum game with winners and losers, but I think sociologists are afraid that genetic difference implies a better and a worse (as it has to many racists) so they maintain their pre-genomic view. Do you have some formal background studying genetic demes and that? I'm just an internet person who knows nothing, but my white fragility causes me to suspect there's something biological about the phenotypic differences that accumulate in geographically distinct populations. If one says so one is usually shouted down as a eugenicist. I can swallow what they say insomuch as there are no hard lines between races and interbreeding between all what we call races in their inception, but the aggregate of traits we call race kind of must derive from population genetics. I haven't heard a case for race based behaviors and would be highly skeptical of any. People were bringing tin from Afghanistan to Greece 4000 years ago so they got around. They went elsewhere like the Black Sea and Egypt in those bronze age times. My problem is that it's like saying there's nothing biological about red hair, because it's actually more of an auburn that we call red and some of us assume it comes from Satan.
Marvel is fascist too now huh? Give me a break…
Wonderful conversation, you would all be on my tab!
Would love to hear this conversation about Union structure. With a little more "building solidarity" among the rank-and-file.
I was a board member of a West Michigan local.
When I would mention work limits (10 or 12hr days). A vast majority of members would tell me that's how they make their money! Unions that are successful seem to really adopt the capitalist model.
With the managerial class.
Peace and solidarity!
I loved the shout out 2 Fred and Lamont.
Truly glad you didn't go 2
Dr Aunt Esther!