Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Fire Scale and Fire Stain - How To Prevent It and Remove It
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- Опубликовано: 6 апр 2020
- Andrew is on lockdown for the next few weeks and is producing films based upon what you want to see.
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Probably the most detailed and helpful video I’ve seen so far about this topic. Thank you very much.
I was taught t use the reduction gilding method as a last step to put a thin layer of fine silver over my piece.
We've been taught all wrong.... I first learned about abdek in a summer internship (3rd year student!). And I was taught to use the hottest part of the flame to anneal the piece in the academy. I wonder how much more I would have learned with you being my actual lecturer in the academy 😭 Your videos have been teaching me for this whole period of time instead of people that are being paid to teach us. Thank You!!!
great video.I worked fora silversmith years ago in Emeryville, CA however I did not get to do soldering but briefly and was assigned other chores on the property, landscaping and renovation work. Now I am doing this as a hobby for myself-I just ordered a Foredom flex shaft, and have gathered nearly all I need but for the experience, and I will be starting this week, practicing on some copper, & silverplate to get the hang of the saw and solderrring. Took your advice v& bought a proper jeweler's saw as well, am really jazzed , I have some onyx I want to cut & polish and raw emerald as well. Cannot be afraid to make some mistakes, I say Thanks for all your great videos!
Isn’t he the best teacher?
You explain not just what to do but also why you do it that way. This really matters. Your videos are the best I've come across and I've watched dozens of other people. You really know your craft. Thank you.
Your explanations are so clear and thorough! I'm a self-taught jewelry maker and designer, so your videos teach me a lot of what I would have learned by going to classes, etc. Thank you for giving your time and talent!
I just started the Jewellery making quest - gathering bits up etc. I got a small crucible and melted some old .925 silvers - using a butane torch. They melted quickly but i dropped the 'ball/puddle' of silver into water and came out black. Putting it in hot citric acid didnt take off the oxidisation either 😢
The crucible did have some lovely colours left in it though - greens and browns including copper
After your heating/soldering/pickling process, set the silver down on a piece of white paper with some good lighting. It makes it easier to see where the fire scale shadows are.
My takeaway from this: do your best to prevent firestain or firescale! Watch your heating time, practice your heating method, use flux.. Thanks Andrew, great tutorial! 👍
Hi Andrew. Please make a video/s on how to work with gold filled. Like solder, polish, do’s and donts, etc. thank you!
Thank you for very useful tips.
Awesome video as you always make, Andrew! Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Yay,! Fantastic video. Andrew you answered all the questions I had about fire scale and stain. Brilliant! Thank you so much 😊
Anytime I come across an issue while learning silversmithing, I come to this channel. Best on RUclips; solves my problem every time. Thank you for your thorough videos, Andrew Berry.
Great video! Thank you for explaining the differences between firescale and firestain . I have learned so much from your tutorials. Keep them coming. Stay safe!
Hi Andrew Berry, thanks for sharing your tutorial about fire scale prevention. I absolutely love, love, love it. It's exactly what I wanted to see these days. You are the best!
SO helpful, thank you Andrew!
Thanks Andrew, very helpful info. Keep up the good work
well andrew thanks so much for posting this because i am self taught and this fire scale has been a problem and i did not know what was causing it,bless you for sharing your knowledge
Sure glad to see I'm not the only one that's let's their jewelry soar thru the air with the greatest of ease. As shown in the bloopers..
Thanks Andrew. You answered my question about this in the live Q&A this afternoon but directed me to this video to find out more and it has been so hugely helpful. I'm off to try and clean up my piece now, fingers crossed! Thank you again :)
Loved this video. So helpful! I'd love to see your favorite tools/the ones you use all the time!
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who sends metal into the air! Love the bloopers!
Ah, now I understand. Thank you so much for all that information, I have definitely been overheating my pieces.
Thanks Andrew! Important video here
Thank you for this! I always struggle with it, it's so helpfull!!
Finally - a clear explanation(!). Thank you Andrew....!l
Tank you for explaining this. I have had so much trouble with this and had no clue how to do it the right way
Thank you for answering a lot of my questions! 🙂
You’re the best! Thank you so much for sharing
Ab-solutely arbennig, as always! Love the addition of the bloopers too :-)
So good thank you
Thank you . very useful
helpful, many thanks to you
I love the bloopers, they give me hope 😉
Nicely done!
Very helpful !
Thank you Andrew, I've spent many, many hours trying to get rid of those ghastly gray shadows. I made up a concoction of various chemicals for Pripps fluid. It's similar to your dip method. Prevention is definitely best! Thank you for your clear guidance and I'm pleased to see things fly out of your hands too, makes me feel better about my drops. Still trying to find a piece that went flying across the studio two days ago!
Great Video Andrew.
Take care over there.
Outstanding Sir. !
Another great video and the bloopers in the end made it even better 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Thank you SO much!!!! 🙌🏼♥️♥️♥️
I've been getting fire stain on a lot of silver castings over the years by different commercial casters. Not one of them have admitted to pouring the metal at too high a temperature...which causes the staining in cast pieces. Thanks for the info
I thought I was th only one who can’t keep ahold of things. Thanks for this very informative video
These videos are awesome
worked for me, ty so mach
Im a glass lampworker and buying a smith little torch for detail work is what got me interested in making jewelry , it helped to already have the torches lol
Thank you for shering is good Video.
You’re awesome 👏🏼
The most comprehensive and informative explanation I've seen on flame quality/composition and fire scale. Thank you. You didn't mention borax/methylated spririts solution for fire scale prevention. Would like to know best way to make that solution. Unfortunately due to COVID 19 my supplier has run out of elbow grease. Happy Easter.
Can you tell us what mops you use for tripoli and rouge? Please and thanks :)
Deleted: no one appreciates the Grammar police (oxidization as a noun). Thank you for an excellent video on fire-scale/stain. So well received!
Wonderful video!!!! Very informative!! Andrew I have a question. I have a rotary bit and I have no idea what it is or what its used for..lol the tip is in the shape of a stop sign and is nicely polished... Any ideas what it could be?
Danke für dieses video
As usual, another brilliant video. I use silver metal clay for many of my pieces and fire it in a kiln in anhydrite . The anhydrite prevents fire stain in the fired clay. Can you anneal metal pieces in the kiln the same way by heating it to 1200 degrees in the anhydrite, letting it cool for a bit then quenching it? I think it would be helpful if you have a lot of metal that needs to be annealed (DEFINITELY NOT quick and dirty) Or is this a dumb idea? I just watched the beginner's annealing video and it said to do wire in the kiln but can this apply o sheet also?
@Andrew Berry What you think about working with Argentium Silver?
Oh Andrew how I wish i watched this one before I did my last prototypes for the entire collection. I recently switched from argentium to sterling to solder bigger bezelz with less heat as it transfers better on silver but omg. I couldn't even see all the firescale until I was done polodjing and buffing. And oi. Heartbroken. Lol thank you for all your amazing help and amazing teaching! If you can perhaps show how you'd fix a piece after you've set the stone? Protecting the stone entirely, possibly shining the stone up? Im talking semi precious stones too tricky business. Ugh :( thank you!
Great info. I remember when I first stared got a ring finished polished up and lookin lovely, took the photos under the light an I seen all this brown n purple cloudy crud all over it, this was my first bad experience with the dreaded fire scale lol.. What about carboric acid? 🤔 I think that's what's it's called, iv seen some jewlers use that as a prevention for firescale. Think it was Melissa Muir and the online jewlery workshop guys use it in some videos
Hi Andrew,
What’s that little propane torch you’re using? Are there cartridges to fill it?
Thanks!
What kind of flux & silver solder do u use
Andrew, I am just newely in an apprenticeship with a 51 years of experience in the industry in Europe, then Los Angeles jewlery district production houses, goldsmith/metalsmith that eschews using sterling at all. He uses only fine silver (besides gold and platinum) for all silver pieces and teaches the same. My question is; why do we use sterling at all? Is it always about "strength"? Is it about the economy of materials? On the same note, my teacher only uses easy solder. He says there's no need to use anything else if you use the correct amount of solder (not too much). These two things really send me down the road of questions. I'd appreciate your input. Thank you so much.
@coldwax222 agree 100% Thank you for the validation. I don't argue, I walk away. I use hard solder, and sterling (if using silver), and I work clean. Thank you again.
Great video, thank you. I made a silver box, rouge and polished it, and it is full of fire stain. I tried elbow grease but could not get rid of the fire stain so in the end I gave up and had it hallmarked. I am not happy with this situation. What can I do to rectify this problem? Please help. Thank you.
Hi Andrew Berry, Thanks for the tutorial. I have a question about in minute 21:16 you say you are putting what? I can hear the word clearly? I sounds Kalico? And also what kind of rotating burr are you using? Is it made out of rubber? Thanks
Would it help using stronger sanding papers to remove very difficult fire stains?
Andrew: I has a problem and I'm not sure if it's fire scale or not. Basically I polish with either mops using Fubulustre or Rouge and I get yellowish splotches or I use silicone wheels and I get no splotches, but a substandard shine. If I do get the yellow splotches I cannot polish them out and have to go down to an emery wheel to get rid of them. The other thing I notice is that you seem to use the rouge a lot more heavily than I do. Could that be related? Love your videos by the way.
Can you show us how to add a hing to a locket or even a locket from start to finish.
Loving your approach. I wish you had shown the other side of the peace where you had put flux over. Just to see if the stain is apparent.
In my experience, the better way is to just remove the “skin” layer filing and grinding it all off so the “flash, under skin” reveals itself shiny with no stain. Lots of work, but it works.
Thanks Andrew. I have read in many books that it's also worth trying to use a charcoal block (or construct a kiln like area with them) to help absorb the oxygen. I usually do this, but In your experience is this a pointless exercise? Thanks, Dawn
Hi Andrew. I'm getting firescale and firestain quite often and I have started to give up! I've been told to use powdered boric acid and denaturated alcohol and put the silver in the mixture before soldering but it didn't work! I thought that it will solve the problem but nothing... First of all do you recommend it? Secondly, even if I want to put an ear pin it takes so much time. Is this because I use hard solder (do I need to use hard solder for ear pins?)?
What did you put into the borax from the purple bottle? Thank you. So helpful x
Pam Usher ... water
Unrelated, but what are the rotary mop heads used here
Thanks. Have a large flat piece that’s terrible. Now i know better.
If a piece of silver is fire stained, even if it has been pickled and the joint cleaned again, may this stop my solder from flowing? I kept going back to a bangle I was trying to solder, but I think it had been torched to the point of no return. Is this possible???
Thank you again very much Andrew. I was wondering if the side that you put the borax on had less or no fire scale. But, since you only coated one side does the fire scale go through the other side that is being heated? I started using denatured alcohol and borax acid like what you showed. It does seem to help but I only dipped mine once, so Im going to do it three times like you did. Take care of yourself we'll see you again....AT your BENCH :)
Yes the borax stops the firescale. Dip yours then set it alight. If you see any bare patches dip and set it alight until you see no bare patches of metal
Would have liked to see the protected side
My solder doesn’t flow even with good fluxing so I stay a long time sometimes and idk why
I've been looking for help all weekend on this, should have looked at yours first. Thank you, now I know what I'm looking and and just need to go back to work to get rid of it. Thanks for such a great video.
I see that you use tripoli as pre-polishing compound. Isn't it dangerous without any protection? I want to use tripoli but i read many articles that it contains silica, which might cause silicosis.
Does using a tumbler work well for removing firescale?
No A tumbler will only polish
Aha! So that’s firescale on my brass . Even after polishing I could not get the reddish stain out (copper?)
Here at school we make our own firestain preventer. It's a jar of alcohol with some boric acid in it. Which might well be what Magic Borax is. But the homemade recipe is very cheap to make.
We just take the piece and stir it into the jar with some tweezers to suspend the boric acid, then light off the alcohol et voilà!
The piece gets no firescale or stain whatsoever.
It's just an habit to take to dunk the piece in it every time it's going to be heated but it's really worth creating that habit given how tedious removing firestain is.
I really liked your explanations about the areas of the flame that are more oxidizing and about nitric acid, although I don't plan to use that trick except maybe on a very intricate surface.
Thanks a lot for this valuable lesson!
Good point. I learned from the boric acid and denatured alcohol from another jewelry Professor, however, I feel it's very dangerous because if it's near the flame the whole thing gets on fire. Andrew Berry's method is the safest so far. The only problem is I can find the cone and the dish. I found it to be pricey last time I checked last year.
@@ingridsaab5413 You're right, it can be dangerous if we're not careful. Sometimes I have let the coating evaporate on it's own, it takes very few seconds and it works fine too.
As a safety measure I always keep the jar at least at an arm's length from the torch and never leave it open. It's a small container and the lid is always next to it when open.
@@Annie59G , yes , I do the same thing, and now because we are quarantined, I am temporary no longer using the torch, so that I can prevent any accidents, since I'm still a beginner intermediate I find it that this time, is the best for taking notes and binge watching video tutorials such as this one
Andrew, this video explained a lot, thank you for posting it. I have one question. When I was taught to solder sterling silver, the instructor taught to dip the entire piece in a boric acid/denatured alcohol mixture to protect the ENTIRE piece from fire scale. I’ve noticed on your videos, you usually only apply the borax slurry to the area being soldered. Is the way I’ve been taught incorrect, or just an extra protective step for beginners? It does force more clean up. Maybe now that I have more experience and can read the solder better, this step isn’t necessary? I have now ordered a borax cone.
Hi Elizabeth. Have you tried the boric acid/denaturated alcohol? Because I did and it didn't work. I'm not sure if I did something wrong though. Can you tell me the ratio that you used? and do you dip the piece and then wait for the alcohol to evaporate?
@ Elizabeth Your instructor taught you right.
@@theofiliapostola9492 You light the solution and burn it off.
How do you prevent the solder from flowing everywhere you've put the flux?
Use less solder and use the flame to control the flow. Heat only the area you want the folder to flow. You can stop it flowing by using whiteout, or graphite or many other things
why do you use a buff stick (max elbow grease) to clean off fire-scale to polish (and not clean off the scale). What "mop" would do the job better and faster? Why use hand tools (buff stick) to FIX the problem. Why not use the flexshaft power to remove the scale? And if so, what tools( mizzy wheel? sandpaper rolls, bristle brush wheels...etc.). It doesn't HAVE to be tedious and horrible elbow grease, does it?
Can you melt the piece of silver down and turn it back into an ingot or wire to get rid of the fire stain?
You can’t but it is easier to file it off the metal than to melt it down again
@@Atthebench can't? You mean the fire stain will still be there even after I melt it and make it into wire?
I mean there is not much point melting it down. It is a waste of time. Just file it or remove it from the piece
Does this work the same with 9crt gold im re-shapping a ring and would like to know how to protect from fire scale
Thanks so much Andrew ! Is Vaseline of any use as a flux for copper and silver jewelry or is that only suitable for industrial applications? And lemon juice ? Any thoughts about Boraxin ? Grateful for everything I’m learning from you !
From college (30 years ago!) right up to the present, the sight of fire stain on silver as you get close to a good gloss makes me shudder. And want to sob dramatically!
Chin up! its not the end of the world! that would be Trump and his handling of Covid and the protests!
I can find the borax cone on Amazon, but you cannot find the dish
Hi
We sell all the tools and equipment in our store. www.AtTheBench.store
nothing i do is getting the solder to stick
Andrew is an undercover freak I just know it.
I know this has to have been asked before but...if coating your piece with a flux to prevent scale, how do you confine your solder to the soldering area? Won’t the coating of flux allow the solder to flow wherever it wants (that is warm enough)?
George Landrum in theory you won’t heat the metal up hot enough for the solder to melt
Andrew Berry , so this is just used for annealing?
@@georgelandrum1257 I am wondering the same thing! I want to start using a flux solution like Boracic Powder + methylated spirit, or magic boric like in the video, but how do you isolate areas where you want solder to flow? Maybe we should use products like tippexx or yellow ochre over areas we want to protect from solder. Or, could we flux solder areas first, then heat the piece a little to get a light coating of oxides (around fluxed area), and then coat the whole piece in the boracic acid solution? But I don’t know if you can do that or if it would work...!
@@georgelandrum1257 I'm guessing he means that if you use torch heat control that only the part you want to solder will get hot enough, not the other parts? Is this correct Andrew? 🙏🙏🙏
Gillian M. , it took me a while to figure it out, but yes, heat control is the answer, I had an issue with butane as there was no way to really concentrate the flame other than applying and pulling back. The boric acid will control the fire scale, and will bubble and flow, but not to the point the solder flows everywhere. I discovered that using whiteout or yellow ocher I could control where the solder went by using it as a barrier after the application of boric acid solution. Once I started using a torch system with finer control it was not quite the issue as before.
I don't like that I'm here 😂
because i have to deal with fire scale and stains on silver :)
i wass putting too much fire when annealing. now i minimized it thanks to Andrew. but its pita
Im leaving your channel because you've started talking about basic shit... I wanted to know how wire is made by hand not all this basoc crap