Your answer around 18:00 made me wonder: What about the ring that Saruman makes for himself? Is Sauron aware of that one too? If so, what would he think about it? Shouldn't that tip him off that Saruman is not loyal?
Hi John, I just read Beren and Luthien based on your recommendation. I really enjoy the books and will read The Fall of Gondolin next. I had a question from Beren and Luthien. When it is described how Beren gets the silmaril out of Morgoth's crown it says "But daring more he essayed to gain them all. Then the knife of the treacherous dwarves snapped..." I was surprised at the word 'treacherous', it's not like the dwarves made a bad blade on purpose, or tricked Beren. And it probably wasn't even a bad blade, it just failed against the silmaril. Did I miss something, or is it meant to be Beren swearing at them in frustration in the moment?
In the earliest versions, the dwarves were straight up villains, you see that disappear more and more in each revision. Keep in mind he was also writing The Children of Húrin at the time, which had a sword with it's own will, so it may have been that the knife was indeed treacherous in this version. Of course your interpretation makes sense more for The Silmarillion.
"It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled swirled in the air. *Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it.* In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs." Mane is hair, yes?
Ralph Bakshi’s Balrog had a hairy mane based off early John Howe illustrations that show Durin’s Bain with bits of hair. But as the mane “kindled and blazed behind it” and other descriptions of Balrogs in the books would suggest it’s a metaphor for the Balrogs ability to ignite into flame and shadow, creating the appearance of a mane and wings.
This is very true, though keep in mind Tolkien's liberal use of both simile and metaphor in these passages. For example it also says "wings", which contradicts them being "man shaped", but carefully looking at the passage reveals the simple truth that it's aura spreads out like wings. In the case of the mane, it could very well be literal, though it also could be metaphorical, the fiery aura looking like a mane of fire. Tolkien definitely wanted the Balrogs description to be somewhat vague.
As to how Balrogs looked like I would say they looked hot. Spirits of living flame. Ainur can take any form they want. Some went about humanoid looking, some not.
If I'm not mistaken I think I remember hearing that a Balrogs form was fixed because they sided with Morgoth before entering the realm of creation. I might be wrong tho.
They are incarnate, much as the wizards are. They can change their auras, as Durin's Bane lessens it's fire and increases it's shadow. Once you're incarnate (bound to flesh) you're stuck like that until bodily death.
I think the point of a book is that things don’t have definitive form. Each person who reads the passages describing Balrogs will imagine something else. Balrog’s are spirits of smoke and fire made manifest in reality to fight on the side of evil in the world.
When I read other authors, detailed descriptions of the characters is always part of the story. Tolkien tells you who the character is and what makes them special more than what they look like and gives you only very sparing and specific physical descriptions. This writing style is uniquely genius to force the reader to use their imagination more than normal. Tolkien’s description of an Ent will insure no 2 People in the world will envision them the same way.
@@scottnunnemaker5209 you come to a Tolkien Lore / Scholar’s channel to talk about Tolkien being an just an average writer?! Ok😂… ever heard of a guy called the Father of Modern Fantasy and one of the best selling authors in the world? You can say he’s not your personal favorite or whatever but to suggest his writing is anywhere near the same level as say George RR Martian would suggest you don’t know much about complex literature. Just to try and see where you’re coming from, do you think Mark Twain and William Faulkner are just average, typical writers too? Do you drop by Shakespeare channels and talk about how he was bland and unoriginal?
@@ZephyrOptional I’m just being honest, I see my honesty about his descriptions has you upset. Do you only care about popular, well sold literature? Is that your only metric for deciding whether an author is good or not?
@@scottnunnemaker5209 ….so you responded flippantly to MY comment on something I’m obviously passionate about and then claim “honesty”, which is open to strong debate, although not worthy of it. Or are you a joke or just a nasty Toll under a nasty bridge looking to dismiss anyone who cares about anything? Fool… can’t even respond to my questions… do you really think anyone here cares that you think Tolkien is just an average writer?! No need to respond. I for sure don’t, and I doubt anyone else here cares about your completely pointless, thoughtless, and baseless opinion.
wow so happy I found this channel and its perfect, perfect tone voice no insane music
Welcome aboard!
Your answer around 18:00 made me wonder: What about the ring that Saruman makes for himself? Is Sauron aware of that one too? If so, what would he think about it? Shouldn't that tip him off that Saruman is not loyal?
Sauron probably did know about it, he may have even encouraged that sort of thing, as if he gained The One ring, he would have control over Saruman.
Hi John, I just read Beren and Luthien based on your recommendation. I really enjoy the books and will read The Fall of Gondolin next.
I had a question from Beren and Luthien. When it is described how Beren gets the silmaril out of Morgoth's crown it says "But daring more he essayed to gain them all. Then the knife of the treacherous dwarves snapped..."
I was surprised at the word 'treacherous', it's not like the dwarves made a bad blade on purpose, or tricked Beren. And it probably wasn't even a bad blade, it just failed against the silmaril.
Did I miss something, or is it meant to be Beren swearing at them in frustration in the moment?
In the earliest versions, the dwarves were straight up villains, you see that disappear more and more in each revision. Keep in mind he was also writing The Children of Húrin at the time, which had a sword with it's own will, so it may have been that the knife was indeed treacherous in this version. Of course your interpretation makes sense more for The Silmarillion.
Aragorn and Arwen married in Gondor, both in Rivendell, I think in the extended version.
Rivendell isn't in Gondor. And I'm talking only about the books here.
"It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled swirled in the air. *Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it.* In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs."
Mane is hair, yes?
Ralph Bakshi’s Balrog had a hairy mane based off early John Howe illustrations that show Durin’s Bain with bits of hair. But as the mane “kindled and blazed behind it” and other descriptions of Balrogs in the books would suggest it’s a metaphor for the Balrogs ability to ignite into flame and shadow, creating the appearance of a mane and wings.
This is very true, though keep in mind Tolkien's liberal use of both simile and metaphor in these passages. For example it also says "wings", which contradicts them being "man shaped", but carefully looking at the passage reveals the simple truth that it's aura spreads out like wings. In the case of the mane, it could very well be literal, though it also could be metaphorical, the fiery aura looking like a mane of fire. Tolkien definitely wanted the Balrogs description to be somewhat vague.
As to how Balrogs looked like I would say they looked hot. Spirits of living flame. Ainur can take any form they want. Some went about humanoid looking, some not.
If I'm not mistaken I think I remember hearing that a Balrogs form was fixed because they sided with Morgoth before entering the realm of creation. I might be wrong tho.
The balrogs are maiar, shouldn't they be able make their body look however they want it to look?
They are incarnate, much as the wizards are. They can change their auras, as Durin's Bane lessens it's fire and increases it's shadow. Once you're incarnate (bound to flesh) you're stuck like that until bodily death.
I think the point of a book is that things don’t have definitive form. Each person who reads the passages describing Balrogs will imagine something else. Balrog’s are spirits of smoke and fire made manifest in reality to fight on the side of evil in the world.
When I read other authors, detailed descriptions of the characters is always part of the story. Tolkien tells you who the character is and what makes them special more than what they look like and gives you only very sparing and specific physical descriptions. This writing style is uniquely genius to force the reader to use their imagination more than normal. Tolkien’s description of an Ent will insure no 2 People in the world will envision them the same way.
@@ZephyrOptional eh, I’ve honestly never considered Tolkien’s descriptions to be any better or worse than most other authors.
@@scottnunnemaker5209 you come to a Tolkien Lore / Scholar’s channel to talk about Tolkien being an just an average writer?! Ok😂… ever heard of a guy called the Father of Modern Fantasy and one of the best selling authors in the world? You can say he’s not your personal favorite or whatever but to suggest his writing is anywhere near the same level as say George RR Martian would suggest you don’t know much about complex literature. Just to try and see where you’re coming from, do you think Mark Twain and William Faulkner are just average, typical writers too? Do you drop by Shakespeare channels and talk about how he was bland and unoriginal?
@@ZephyrOptional I’m just being honest, I see my honesty about his descriptions has you upset. Do you only care about popular, well sold literature? Is that your only metric for deciding whether an author is good or not?
@@scottnunnemaker5209 ….so you responded flippantly to MY comment on something I’m obviously passionate about and then claim “honesty”, which is open to strong debate, although not worthy of it. Or are you a joke or just a nasty Toll under a nasty bridge looking to dismiss anyone who cares about anything? Fool… can’t even respond to my questions… do you really think anyone here cares that you think Tolkien is just an average writer?! No need to respond. I for sure don’t, and I doubt anyone else here cares about your completely pointless, thoughtless, and baseless opinion.
Could Men learn magic? If not, then why would the idea of a necromancer not alarm the council more than it did?
They absolutely could, there were a lot of necromancers and sorcerers out of Númenor, for example.