Polish military modernisation & why are they buying Korean tanks? - Featuring
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- Опубликовано: 13 май 2024
- Sponsored by World Of Tanks - If you're interested, use the following link to sign up: bit.ly/3UuHS1h
In the video I'm pretty sure I say you get the Matilda Black Prince - it's actually the Excelsior, which is a decent tank capable of moving faster than walking speed (unlike my TOG II). You also get a bunch of in game currency, seven days of premium, and rental access to three solid vehicles - Tiger, Cromwell, and T-34/85. Only for new players though!
Importantly though - I want to stress the Chieftain is appearing in a personal capacity for his video segment, not as a rep of Wargaming or WoT.
Description:
Military modernisation is a complex task for any state. Individual system selection is usually based on competitive trials and an extensive review and evaluation process.
Usually.
Poland's plans are a little different - ordering what is basically an entire new army's worth of equipment (with more tanks than many other major European states combined) from the Republic of Korea without any sort of extended trials process.
In this episode, I ask the question of why a country in Europe would suddenly buy 1,000 tanks and hundreds of artillery pieces from a country half way around the world without so much as a trials program for the tank.
To comment on why Poland may have selected the K2 - I've invited back the Chieftain to give a tanker's expert view on the question.
Thank you as always for engaging with this study of defence economics in action, and we'll return to topics examining the Ukraine war next week.
Caveats:
There are two big caveats over this one.
The first is that announcements (as used as a key source here) doesn't always mean a program will deliver on time or as announced. 1,000 tanks ordered could become 500, delivery times might change etc. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they PROBABLY WILL change in many respects. This is a massive block of procurement that will challenge the heck out of any procurement office, let alone one that has not had to deal with this volume in recent years.
The second is that some statements are based on what you might call industry rumour, scuttlebutt, 'common knowledge' or what have you. I have tried to flag these where they come up.
Patreon:
/ perunau
Sources & Further Reading:
2021 platform figures are MB2021 as usual for the sake of consistency between episodes.
NATO expenditure figures are per NATO as normal:
www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/ne...
For PPP calculations - see detailed sourcing in my video on European Defence
Polish announcement on domestic production:
www.gov.pl/web/national-defen...
RE: Technical modernisation plans
defence24.com/armed-forces/po...
Polish MoD publications:
www.gov.pl/web/national-defen...
Polish Abrams Procurement announcement example:
www.defensenews.com/global/eu...
"USAF plan to Divest to Invest is too risky" - Gen. John Michael Loh (ret.) (presented without either endorsement or critique)
www.defensenews.com/opinion/c...
K9 production for Poland:
www.edrmagazine.eu/hanwha-rol...
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - OPENING WORDS
00:02:06 - WHAT AM I TALKING ABOUT
00:03:04 - SPONSOR: WORLD OF TANKS
00:04:32 - THE POLISH MILITARY
00:04:44 - A Cold War Force
00:06:23 - Between East and West
00:07:42 - The Military of 2021
00:08:20 - Designed with Purpose
00:10:32 - Poland's Competing Requirements
00:12:03 - The Polish DIB
00:13:13 - Borsuk & Krab
00:14:12 - THE BUYING SPREE
00:15:34 - K2
00:16:10 - K9
00:16:56 - K239
00:19:34 - FA-50
00:19:57 - A "Diverse" Fleet
00:20:54 - HOW ARE THEY AFFORDING IT
00:20:58 - Divest to Invest
00:22:34 - Budgets and Margins
00:24:03 - But it is Expensive
00:25:15 - WHY KOREAN
00:25:25 - An Extensive Order Book
00:26:12 - ASSESSING K2
00:26:22 - Guest: The Chieftain
00:36:55 - THE INDUSTRIAL DIMENSION
00:37:27 - More Than Just Speculations
00:38:32 - KOREAN EXPORT STRATEGY
00:38:49 - A Growing Player
00:39:29 - RoK Arms Exports (SIPRI TIV 2001-21)
00:39:53 - Competitive Advantages
00:41:21 - Playing to Their Strengths
00:42:20 - The Strategy
00:43:31 - TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER & MARKET PENETRATION
00:43:42 - S1: Imported Hardware
00:45:52 - S2: Domestic Production
00:48:05 - S3: Joint Development & Marketing
00:49:36 - TARGET EUROPE
00:49:54 - The European Market
00:50:57 - Entrenched Actors
00:51:43 - Evolving Tank Fleets
00:53:09 - A Third Competitor
00:55:20 - The Korean Offer
00:56:48 - CONCLUSIONS
00:57:50 - CHANNEL UPDATE
Big thanks to World of Tanks for sponsoring this video: Sign up here if interested: bit.ly/3UuHS1h
If you are new, the promo code TANKMANIA should get you the following:
-7 Days Premium Account
-250k credits
-Premium Tank Excelsior (Tier 5)
-3 rental tanks for 10 battles each: Tiger 131 (Tier 6), Cromwell B (Tier 6), and T34-85M (Tier 6)
Also many thanks to the Chieftain for appearing to give his evaluation of K2 in the Polish context - it's always good to have YT's resident tanker onboard.
Finally thanks to all viewers as usual - I'm feeling better this week but needed more time to work on the next Ukraine topic, so it was great as always to take a break and look into the world of defence economics. After doing the Germany video - I warn this might be a bit of a jarring change...
forsen
Emo Emu. Have a nice evening.
Hi Perun.
This video makes me think of countryballs where Poland and South Korea bond over their shared history of being punching bags for their neighbors
Hey Perun - If you thought the relationship between Ukraine and Russia was toxic wait until you meet your team mates in WoT. :-)
Poland imho is justly paranoid. they got lucky after the Napoleonic wars and got statehood. sense then they have been a minor power between 2 great powers ever since.
Poland: So you are saying 8 HIMARS are enough to stop an entire Russian army?
The West: Yes.
Poland: *I'D LIKE 500*
"Why?"
Poland: "To put 400 of them on the border with Germany"
Basically the whole "Ill take your entire stock" meme.
8 Himars didn't stop the Russian army... Ukrainian citizen soldiers with NLAWs did. Once Russia was stopped, 8 Himars have proven sufficient to disrupt an entire army's supply chain though.
@@kschleic9053 either way it seems like you can achieve a lot with 500 HIMARs. I laughed when I first saw the reports of how much they’d ordered a couple weeks back.
@@davidty2006hats not even the entire stock it’s 100 over the entire amount of himars around
75 IQ: If Russia invades, NATO will not react fast enough to save Poland from Russia.
100 IQ: If Russia invades, NATO *will* react fast enough to save Poland from Russia.
130 IQ: If Russia invades, NATO will not react fast enough to save Russia from *Poland.*
To be fair considering Russias performance in Ukraine with a surprise attack I suspect any Russian attempts on Poland will end with Polish troops marching in Moscow. Jokes aside probably grinding down the Russians into absolutely nothing relatively quickly. Paper tiger meet flamethrower.
True, true.
150 IQ: Russia doesn't want to invade Poland. But they will f them up if they put more NATO crap close to Russia's borders. Ur welcome.
@@awannagannaful That's a 0 IQ take.
Not only because there is no way in hell Russia will invade Poland seeing how hilariously badly we're doing against Ukraine of all countries, but because fighting NATO itself will be the death of Russia. We're a third world army pretending to be a first world power. Can't even have scopes on all our AKs just what the hell kind of joke is that? What first world military doesnt equip scopes on their guns in 2010? Sorry its 2022 and we still didn't/can't/corruption.
It's like not having a tank or air force in WW2. Stupid.
Not to mention its not that NATO stuff is close to Russias borders. It's that sadly we are doing our absolute best to ensure that all our neighbours join NATO by doing the dumbest shit then acting surprised when they decide to join NATO. Wow. Shocking.
Love your sense of humour
Absolutely classic
I'm Korean.
Along with this contract, Poland and Korea decided to create brilliant works with engineers in the development of next-generation K3, AS-22, KF-21 block3 and K9A3. Polish and Korean like brothers who share the same fate. fight fire with fire!! all for one one for all!! 🤩
Can the uk join the party 🎉 please😢
@@Buttmunch284 yes. UK is already in K9 club, if I’m not wrong
Romania also is interested into the K program
@@Alex2K yes, Romania is about to join, too. Welcome to homie!
I think it is also a good strategic decision because we are living in very uncertain times and if, God forbid, there was a war on Korean peninsula Korean local military industry production would be affected. Thanks to this partnership Korea will have a backup military production safely located in Poland which could supply Korean army in case of Korean domestic production being impacted or maybe even destroyed during the war.
As a South Korean, I would like to add one important aspect to this partnership. That is, Poland can become a supply hub for South Korea in the case of war in Korea. Building our own weapons instead of using the US made systems came with potential supply issues. So Poland can solve this issue of steady supply of replacement parts and equipment.
That is the main reason which everybody in Europe misses. Especially the scorned Germans, who always, fail to notice their industry glacial pace of production for large number of arms. Heck, it takes them 4+ years already to produce 44 tanks 2A7 for Hungary which were ordered back in 2018, with the first batch to be dekivered in 2023. First batch!!!! Germans are "quick" as hell!
That’s an interesting point. The more friends the better
As a Pole I agree And find our cooperation as way to long term friendship between our nations. By the way three is quite a lot of Koreans on Polish univesities. Very kind And polite people. It is good to have such a friends (Korean Nation) in heart of Asia. I can also mention that i find history of your country interesting. Greetings from PL to South Korea And for all Koreans. Those who suffers from tyrany in the north as well.
As an american, please dont count on my government to help you. Theyve been emptying our stockpiles to help ukraine, and gave the majority of our strategic fuel reserves to china. So we're low on fuel, and a growing number of advanced weapons, not to mention all the equipment left for the taliban in afghanistan. Itll take 10 years to restock everything, additionally our air force and naval aviation readinness is the lowest since ww2. The hundreds of thousands of flight hours racked up from 20 years of war in iraq and afghanistan has really taken a toll on our aircraft fleet. Top all that off with our military industrial complex's notoriously slow production rate, Poland is smart to have gone to south korea for tanks and artillery and south korea is smart to be cranking out their own systems at a rate that puts my country to shame. Best of luck to both your nations, i do hope poland stays peaceful and south korea continues to build itself into a hard target uninviting for the north and china to attack. Peace is best maintained through strength.
And Poland is also supposed to become the main hub for Korean arms sales in Europe.
It makes perfect sense that Poland got a new tank that can deal with mountainous terrain. They just think 2 steps ahead and are ready to defend the Polish border in the Ural mountains.
🤣 ... against a Chinese invasion
Carpathian mountain tank, docile until you anger it. If and when you do, it plays loud music, flashes lights, and shouts "I AM POLE".
@@SianaGearz THREE SALVOES FOR THE HONOR OF POLAND
@@SianaGearz ah I see a man of culture sharing relevant references…!!!
It's not about mountains. It's about lakes and swamps of north Poland. Mazury, Suwałki, Podlasie.
I'm a simple Hungarian, I see Poland buying 1k MBTs and hundreds of HIMARS-like systems and I hit like.
Shame the Hungarian government is corrupted by Moscow and Hungarians still supports it even after the open war against Ukraine was launched.
I’m a simple Pole, I see a familiar meme and say Polak, Węgier - dwa bratanki and I hit the like.
@@19MAD95 It is much appreciated!
Everything indicates that it will be areound 200-250 Himars + 250 technical trucks and loaders. But still, the number is pretty big.
@@adamciemniewski764 plus 253 Chunmoo
As a polish citizen i want every piece of hardware be named after famous korean starcraft terran players.
임요한 Im Yo Han haha
All the top Polish SC2 pros were either Zerg or Protoss, otherwise it would be fitting to name something after them too. But lots of Korean Terrans to choose from. Gotta do GuMiho mainly because he has been playing mech for his whole career and deserves something for that dedication.
why not Zerg players like 콩진호
why not Zerg players like 콩진호
@@Eldydhdhd thats why:P
It is crazy to think what the South Koreans accomplished in the past decades. If you think about how the country looked at the end of the Korean war, and what it is today, it is astonishing. It is an extreme example of what a smart, hard working group of people can accomplish.
I remember South Korea - and overall, the so called "Asian Tigers" - were looked up to & inspired the "can do it as well" approach Poland took in the 90s, after splitting with the communist block.
We also had some Korean investments as well in the 90s - main poster boy being the cooperation with Daewoo, in the automotive sector, but over the time a lot more companies decided to invest - sometimes quite heavily - in Poland.
Past decades doesn't matter. Poland has chance to boost its INDUSTRY & MILITARY now.
Future Poland is gonna be factories of Europe with Korea. What does it mean? Poland is next Korea.
@@obser7088 Actually after the winning the war Ukraine will be another South Korea (who transformed the country from ashes of the Korean war to become a first class developed country and one of the richest)... Slava Ukraini!!! Hopefully PL supply UA with some of K2s and K9s
@@JasonD-yc3oy You have freedom of joke.
@@obser7088 hope that doesn't mean they do that K-pop crap.
South Korea: "What do you want and how much?"
Poland: "Yes, and yes"
Definitely happened
The best way of buying arms
SK: OK....when?
Poland: uh, day before yesterday?
I know its juvenile to be happy about Poland getting lots of everything because it will be a nightmare to work on
But... its just a lot of everything, which is really cool however you try to justify it otherwise!
One thing that South Koreans is willing to make technology transfers to Poland with no strings attached. This is why many countries today are buying military hardware and support they are willing to sell at a affordable price.
"I don't want to go down a rabbit hole" - That glorious ship has already sailed 🙂 👍👍
The "Don't be threatening me with a good time" memes were running through my head.
Not only has that ship sailed, but Drachinfiel has done a video about it.
@@Ciborium the one that came to my mind is that when he made a 6 hours long Q&A videos about ships.
I suspect that a rabbit hole to Perun would be a worm hole to the majority of his audience - especially to me :))
@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 I believe there was some video, from the "5 minute guide to ships (more or less)" video, that got into...something like 1.5h territory.😅
As Polish American who trained in Tae Kwon Do under Master Kwon Sung Choi (and developed a deep respect and admiration for Korean culture), this is a win-win-win for me. Both Korea and Poland are countries that have suffered invasions and betrayals by other countries, including "allies." They have learned that being self-sufficient is the key to survival, making them natural partners.
fascinating... love& greetings from Vienna
Yes. Self reliance.
Go Poland GO! As an American I'm all for this partnership.
Poland has to be demilitarised and stay neutral forever. If they buy these 1000 K2 they will be a threat for Russia and you now they are the next target. Neutrality is the solution.
@@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost. NO! How did you find out about our secret plan to conquer all of Europe...now there is no time to prepare...the whole operation must begin now!
@@diabelgrogaty1963 The germans thought the slavs like Polish, Hungarians and other would come to terms as well with their "losses" of territory (the poles did not lose anything but the Hungarians are the biggest loser of territory from WW2 next to the germans and austrians) but they seem to indulge in revenge plans and thoughts continuously. Crown of Saint Steven, etc. That was nothing new from the poles in Prussia where the germans allways tried to appease the poles and after each appeasement they demanded more and more. At the end the austrians where just happy to get rid of the polish problem in Galizien und Lodomerien and the germans in Prussia since they realised there would never be peace with the warmongering poles specially. That problem not bites Putin in his ass and he does not really know neighter how to solve that similar to the germans in Prussia. The unrestfullness of the slavs, specially the poles, ucranians, Czechs and others cause this war in Ucraine where Russia is now in the position the Germans allways where historically.
The thing is this: if the poles and others have demands or reivindication then the Germans can show up again as well with their rightfull claims. The germans claim would be 50% of todays Poland territory as Prussia (Germany), South Tirol (Austria) and Elsaß-Lothringen (Germany). Thats it.
If one makes claimes, then all show up on the table again specially Germany and Austria.
Poland could be very soon in the similar position like the Wehrmacht was in WW2: no or few fuel for the tanks, no natural ressources for spare parts, no natural ressources for new tank fleets, then only horse driven artillery. Poland/Prussia is traditionally an pasture country for horses. So you better ride on horses against the russians if you want eagerly war.
This is the original map of polish settlements and this big Poland should be in reality only.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I#/media/File:Grody_w_okresie_Mieszka_I.png
About 50% of the territory between the rivers Oder and Weichsel are in reality Poland - nothing more. All other territories are invasion and conquests by force. If Poland would be between the rivers Oder and Weichsel it would have already way more land as it ever had originally without invading the germans, ucranians, Bielorus and russians.
The polish army is very soon an grandpa army since the birth rate is only 1.35 children per women and the median age of the pole is 41 years old. You will not have soldiers not people in the future due to aging population and your soldiers will be old people only.
1000 K2 tanks need to be paid off and for that they need to be used - so Poland is now a threat to Russia.
Best is to declare neutrality, disarm Poland and leave NATO, give back Prussia and we are all friends again.
Prussia is not yet lost!
Same here
TY
I’m glad that Perun is becoming the Forrest Gump of military logistics and economics; somehow meeting everyone with military knowledge and having them feature in his videos.
Logistics is like a box of chocolates….
I sat through the ending credits waiting to see a list of when the various people died, because I thought Forrest was based on a real person. I swear it made the whole movie better.
Wonder which one of us is Jenny 😂
"Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried..."
LT Dan! Ice Cream!
It's easy to understand what Poland is doing when you note how nice of a neighbour Russia has been to everyone for 1000 years.
1000 years ago there was no Russia
@@PaszekoYT Yeap, and not all Russia history is that bad. Russia changed and copied Mongol authoritarian and expansionist culture after brutal occupation. Just adapted to the region, but just dont know when to stop.
@@PaszekoYT Exactly that. Russia was put on the map by Mongol Empire in mid 13th century when a local Muskovy warlord was nominated a tax collector for the Khan. The last time russia paid tributes to Mongol Khan was in 1699 under the reign of Peter the Great. Yes, for more than a half of russian history, russia was a Mongol fiefdom. ... and it shows.
some people thought that russia may be becoming a modern nation. nope they have turned more to barbarity for the last 5 years. the 20 years of relative prosperity there was unusual. now back to repression.
@@ronblack7870 Pootin wanted the be the next Peter the Great who dragged russia into 18th century, so Pootin too is dragging russia into 18th century.
South Korean and Polish partnership doesn't end with military, there are current ongoing talks about other industries, including nuclear reactors and Poland's new airport (Incheon international airport, South Korea's major airport has been a top ranking airport for several years)
It's an open secret that Western Europe looks down upon Eastern Europe, especially Germany to Poland, so it should not be too surprising when Poland looks overseas to a country that respects them.
I doubt anyone with a Braincell looks down on Poland, The main point of friction I think, is the fact that Poland joined the EU later, and has in recent times ,been anti -liberalization, with Conservative parties, that are very akin to hate groups.
Hatered Jusfitied by relgious dogma, is always bad. see; Nazi Germany, Russia, All Arab states, Iran, ect ,ect ,ect
"Open secret", well if you're taking Lavrov's/Putin's anti Anglo Saxon & Anglo Saxonism as being the root of the western [namely Germany, UK & US] expansionism/imperialism seriously then yes, and for you to take those remarks without further discernment/ explanation is not good for the alliance.
we bought korean nuclear reactors, contract was signed
@@la.x-neverthedodgers he is right. Poland was trying to purchase from Germany weapon before and the german approach was like they would not want to sell it. War in Ukraine exposed level of corruption in german political ranks but also true german intentions in Europe. Nord stream 1 and 2 weren't just business projects. They are political ones. Even now when everyone can clearly see what Russia is doing in Ukraine, Berlin still does not want to send their weapon to help Ukraine. More over, it stops others to send help (Spain was forced to stop shipping their Leopards to Ukraine because german manufacturer didn't agree on it). And recently german prime minister Schultz announced that Germany will be seeking to come back to business as usual with Russia. Another historical massive f..k up on behalf of Germany. I do not believe for one second that Germany would fulfill its NATO obligations. They have different ideas all together.
Germans respect their neighbours, when they democratic
As an American, good for Poland. I don't want to see NATO end up like the CSTO. The better Poland can defend her boarders the better position the rest of the NATO will be in when they respond to an article 5.
My Polish wife appreciates your attempt at the proper pronunciation of Warsaw.
As someone from Poland I also appreciate attempts to properly pronounce minister of defence name.
@TaZeR Yup, that would have been a much better attempt
Perun doskonale mówi po polsku, z pochodzenia jest polakiem :P
curwa is the only word i know in polish 💅✨
Isn’t it just War Saw?
"...I'm also not sure how many of my viewers actually want to hear me spend fifteen minutes talking about the variety of funding mechanisms or budgetary structures you can use in order to support military capital spending."
And, just like Poland walking into an arms expo: "YES."
Ya, me too.
Dont threaten me with a good time...
Viewers: "You underestimate my power!"
Beat me to the punch on this joke
Absolutely desired.
I am Korean and have experience working with a few Polish colleagues. Observing our interactions, there were evident parallels in our work ethic. Both sides not only make commitments but also follow through on them with actions and prioritize punctuality. We love working with people like that~ Such experiences suggest a promising foundation for more future collaborations between South Korea and Poland.
파이팅~
I'm a Korean interested in world history. Very exciting to think these weapons would be part of the returned winged hussars.
Hey Perun,
I'm by no means any analyst or any military specialist, however, as a trusty ol' Pole, I can chip in with one thing that I think was worth to talk about in your presentation, which is history of deliveries of western EU equipment to Poland as well as political relationships with countries such as Germany or US
In Poland it's always looked down upon when it comes to being dependent on Germans as they haven't proved a reliable partner in terms of military orders or deliveries. In the past it was always a lot of issues with German contracts and their deliveries, and I believe Polish government has a bad tase in the collective mouth. I believe the same would apply for France.
While US is great in terms of equipment quality, we don't have much negotiating power with them and are reliant on them in most of cases as we consider them our biggest partner. While that is great for them, it also results in higher price for their equipment and gives political leverage over Poland which is not something I believe, any country would want.
Then comes in South Korea who actually seems to treat Poland as a partner rather than someone to take advantage of, who seems to be a reliable weapons exporter on a global market, and we don't have history with them like we do with Germans or French. They see us as an opportunity to gain European market and therefore we have much bigger leverage in negotiations and future relations (joint projects like you mentioned).
Well Korea has something to gain from business in Poland, already runs impressive industrial investments in Poland in other sectors and yeah, absolutely have been where we have been - but They managed go out.
One thing that Perun didn’t mention is that military spending has a very different impact for the economy of a country when the suppliers are foreigners vs national. If all the equipment is imported the expense is a net cost. If it’s manufactured in Poland the expense becomes an investment in local jobs and companies which will boost their economy, increase tax revenues and thus decrease the net cost of military spending. One of the reasons the US can sustain their huge military budget is because most of the money is spent in the US economy: some economists have described it as a huge welfare program. 😅
Looks like Poland has also a economic as well as security goal in pursuing the development of their own military industry.
The Koreans built themselves up from a collection of fishing villages to an Asiatic Tiger. They are also relatively small compared to China and Japan. Like Poland is to Germany and Russia. They understand the up-and-coming mentality. They see what we're trying to do
I've wondered as of late on the why if Poland not buying more Nordic. Then i see you actually do, from Finland".
I thought it was a terrain issue (ie you judged cv90 from Sweden not being will suited to your needs) att first. I must admit to massive excitement about your future development together with Korea even if I'm swedish myself. Seemed like a weird procurement in choice of country to buy from and the numbers in general but water this video I feel i got a bit more balanced view on it!
Wanted to say the same. The tech transfers and business culture are underestimated in many analyses.
I think it is adorable that Perun doesn't think we'd listen to 15 minutes of military budget wonkery.
We're shameless.
I think so, too.
hmmm... not gonna kink-shame or anything, since I just ate the whole video like it was a light midnight snack, BUT... we're DEFINITELY going to hell for this, period. Even Perun himself has to be a bit weirded out by his own audience at this point and we sorta can't blame him for that...
Word.
Eeeeh it could be done in a 3 minute short.
But I wouldn't mind an exhaustive 15-20 explainer either.
1. Tech transfer. 2. Quick delivery to replace soviet tank. 3. Poland will be able to repair tank for other k2 users in Europe. 4. Germany is not trusted and deliveries of parts take ages
Also a good portion of the money basically stays in Poland instead of boosting another country if they can produce their own versions. Also Germany seems to have Swiss produced weapons and munitions which makes things difficult if not tense if another country is being attacked and needs weapons now.
Great job mate!
Poland seems to be very prescient. Buying up lots of kit, in preparation to send their old stuff to Ukraine.
Signing contracts with the Koreans to produce more kit they can sell to the rest of EU (particularly ex Soviet bloc countries like the Baltics and Moldova) so they can pay for it all, and keep the Ruskies out.
Meanwhile everyone else is arguing about how many shells they should sell to the Ukrainians...
Very strategic thinking Poland. Well done!
oprocz tego chodzi i nasz polski tylek by go zachowac
You are right, I don’t want a 15 Minute presentation on ways to budget defence funding, it’s gotta be at least 4 times as long. 1 hour minimum on this channel.
he is so wrong about that
We're all in. Make it an hour!
I literally looked for someone saying this, thank you.
Also, Perrun you are making a wonderful job, keep up with this budgeting video pretty please.
Yep, seconded! We all need to hop in the patreon and remind him of that!
There is one thing that wasnt discussed. From the South Korean side of things, its very advantageous for them to export the ability to ~PRODUCE~ SK military equipment. The Koreans are actually in a neighborhood where they may have to use there military. If things ever go hot on the Korean peninsula, those tank factories are going to be high on the list of targets for the North...
If you've got a friendly country that is producing "nearly" the same thing on another continent, that means a potential supply of spares or maybe even whole new units when needed.
Whereas the Germans and the Americans are quite a ways away from any potential adversaries, to them technology transfer and industrial production sharing isnt as important. Distance provides room for them to try to protect there own production facilities...
The Russian's could be in Warsaw and Germany would still be debating if it should send MRE's to Poland. By the time Germany decided to flood Poland with tanks the Russians would be in France.
I think you made a very important aspect. We don't want to rely on the US and its domestic politics. We need reliable supply source in the case of conflict on Korean peninsula. Poland could supply replacement parts and equipment that South Korea may not be able to maintain as our factories are too close to the front line and could be easily compromised by missile attacks.
That's a good point. I hope more people see this.
👀 wow what a great point. I did NOT think of that 👍👆
@@TheIndianaGeoff The russians can't seem to fight their way out of a wet paper bag these past 8 months, let alone a whole Poland
"...to repel for example a major invasion from an unknown country to the east of Poland"
Very diplomatically put! :D
He meant Mongols, i'm sure of it.
Korea and Poland will form a mutual security relationship The compatibility of weapons would be a lot of cross-border cooperation
T72 heading for retirement... that's a really active retirement home it picked :D
More likely to Ukraine
@@supreme3376 Whoosh 😸
@@supreme3376 You don't say...
it is called active rest, fundamental for keeping your mental faculties in the old age.
Besides, why go to scrapyard when you can go to VALHALLA!
A lot of T72s have retired in Ukraine.
Their retirement hS been spectacular to watch as they shed extraneous assets such as hatches guns and even entire turrets once they reach their predestined meeting with a Javelin other anti tank missile.
Hi Perun, just a small personal observation from a Pole:
I remember that the original modernization plans were much more modest, and there was some talks ("leaks", if you want), after one of the annual "defensive annual war games" that apparently the US (I think it might've been somewhere around 2018-2020, or so) said bluntly to some of our Generals, that we (and the Baltics) should prepare & train for "guerilla warfare" (Javelin-style), because NATO would be incapable to defend us if Russia went all in (and US would be occupied with "something" in the Pacific...) - and that we'd be only rescued after few months. At that time, the scenarios mostly ended with us loosing and Warsaw falling/being cut off after 5 days or so.
I remember a quite visible change in the stance of the narrative both from the government & the military after Bucha & Irpien massacres were brought to light though - and it seems that now the consensus is that "you cannot let the Russians into our territory more than it would be necessary to activate article 5". Also the "need" for so many HIMARS/MLRS systems is due to the wish to "neutralize" the enemy (assembly points, logistics, etc.) "beyond our border" (if - and after - the war breaks out), to avoid the devastation of ones own territory, which is associated with staying on pure defensive.
Makes a lot of sense. Hope this doesn't go down. I am happy that you guys are preparing.
Sensible approach. I also wonder if you guys aren’t looking to be able to assist the Baltic states if necessary. Poles giving fire support to Lithuania from outside of Lithuania could be a real thing with the longer range systems (as an example). It’s interesting to me that the Poles generally seem to be taking this deadly seriously. Russia hasn’t been all that shy about stating the Warsaw Gap is on their to do list.
@@elijahsnow3119 If Russia is lucky they might cut off and capture the Baltic states for a short period, but I don't see Russia attacking Poland anytime soon. Ukraine is tough enough for Russia.
@@elijahsnow3119 With Finland and Sweden in NATO the supply lines of Balts are secured. Nothing with russian flag stay afloat in Baltic Sea after 48h. That gives more room for manouvre on Suwalki area. Scandinavians bring almost 250 top tier fighter aircraft to the table from perfect striking distance, from dispersed and hardened air bases. Half of the ac will soon be stealth F-35s. And i am sure russians wont dare to leave their border against us Finns empty... Finns will fill Gulf of Finland narrows to gills with marine mines the very night after any russian even sneezes in these waters. Our Navy has trained doing it at neck of time for 100 years. Good luck getting even rubber duck out or into St Petersburg.
I came to the comments section specifically to write, what Haamre has written. Perfect summary. Thank you.
Regarding the long range artillery systems that Poland is also purchasing, I have an extra quote (or rather a paraphrase): "The general idea is to DEFEND on the ENEMY territory" .
The tank would also be ideal for Romania since we sure as hell won't produce anything and Abrams are too expensive or Leopards are too slow to produce.
Being from the ex-Warsaw pact, I suspect a lot of countries will also pick Poland as their supplier of MBT. Germany seems weak and too afraid to do anything. In case of a real conflict they would deny any equipment transfer or replacement parts.
You are completely right. Germany is just a puppet state now; they are completely controlled and have been mostly neutered since WW2. It's actually sad to see, even as a Pole.
It won't. Poland should've gone for sepv3/sepv4, so should Romania.
K2 we bought cost almost the same as M1A2sepv3.
@@qwertyq12345 Romania is not that flat. I dont think Abrams are a good fit for us , especially the high cost of operating them.
@@4tech404 K2 is a paper tank and unlike m1a2, Leopard2a6 or newer, it won't stop russian Kornet. I value solider's life more than money. K2 is great against trash North Korea is using but Russia is a different league.
A few years back, the Estonian armed forced made the decision to purchase a small fleet of K9 Thunders from Korea, and apparently one of the deciding factors was the ease of use and ergonomics factors that made the platform more suitable for a conscription-based reserve army, compared to similar German PzH200 or US M119 designs in contention for the purchase.
Well Estonian 10 K9 come with 24 k9 and 10 k2 Polish
'A major invasion from An unknown country from the east of Poland' 😂
Those Ukrainians are pretty aggressive.
@@roberthoward9500 gotta keep those Lithuanians at bay
@@BBP-OMO Those damn Latvians cannot be trusted
@@BBP-OMO Belarus do be wildin lately.
Funny stuff!
Polish officers have visited Rena in Norway multiple times, and have read the reports. So they know exactly how the tests went.
It makes sense, Why test a vehicle if a NATO partner, that you're already working and training with, is already doing it. What's the point? If they say it's a NATO compatible vehicle capable of fighting in Europe, then that's good enough. Any differences in terrain capabilities are probably negligible anyway, and can be read about in the reports.
@@LeutnantJoker The tanks are planned to be customized to adapt it specifically to Polish needs anyways, so I'm sure differences in terrain will be accounted for then
@@LeutnantJoker Not exactly, the terrain dictates the philosophy of design. The biggest differene between korean and european tanks is the angle at which crew is protected from frontal attacks - because of mountains korean tanks are designed with the idea of engagements in situations where the angle can be much more narrow, opposit to what Poland could face on open plains. It basically means sides of the K2 are less protected. To mitigate that they would've to redesign turret and hull. It is not a simple modification. Then you have to consider the implications - the frontal cone at which a tank can receive incoming fire is pretty much written into the doctrine and tactics of how the tanks are used.
@@notyetidentified9720 i do not think it matters, look how many modern munitions attack from above (karl gustav or javelin for example). Only good protection is active (destroying incoming stuff).
@@DJRYGAR1 It's APS, Active Protection System such as 'Trophy', the Israeli company makes. It has adopted by K2.
Love Poland and Korea from 🇹🇷🇹🇷
Support Turkiye🇹🇷🇹🇷 From South Korea🇰🇷🙏🏻 🇹🇷🇰🇷🇹🇷🇰🇷🇹🇷🇰🇷
@@tesla3388 thanks bro ❤️
Greetings from PL
Hi, congrats on a realy good video. Let me add some info that there was missing.
1. Tanks.
T72 and T91 are no more in Poland. They were donated to Ukraine and thus the Army has shortage of 300+ tanks. Thats why Gov is on buying spree and they take Abrams + K2 of shelf.
The K2 was considered to be a go to tank here in Poland for a few years now. Its merrits could have been already evaluated by the military and industrial partners, thou unoficially.
Also we do know like 1/2 of it as the Krab uses it chassis and we already make them localy!
1A. Leppards are NO GO for us as there are constant issues when you try to upgrade them, basically Germans are greedy as hell and dont want any participation in it. Thats why our domestic upgrade to Leo5PL is soo late.
1B. MGCS - Poland wanted to participate in this program but as in the Leo case Fr and Ger just wanted us to be a customer. As we need more tanks than this 2 countries combined its pretty clear why we chose other options.
1C. Infrastructure. Polish bridges and roads are not heavy enought for operation of Abrams tanks. As US Army exp forces are based in the north some of critical infrrastructure was adjusted to requirements of their tanks. Still it would be crazy expansive to rebuild whole coutry infrastructure to match Abrams req. Thus they chose to buy 2 different specs that differ in weight.
2. Howitzers.
We had some considerable stockpiles of soviet era equipment. Those were planed to be replaced in "the future". As we have sent to Ukraine most of our stockplie quite suddenly we need to replace it with smth else.
We have also donated some Krabs and additional were ordered by Ukraine.
Local production capabilities are just not significant enought.
We were already planning for Krab to be modernized with auto-loader. I suspect it was just faster and easier to get license from Korea. Do bare in mind that Krab is K9 with different turret.
So in the end we will have Krab with K9 (oryginal) turret and auto-loader, but also benefiting from Polish electronics expecially the Topaz system thats equivalent of IBCS for artilery!!!
3. FA50PL.
Those I consider a cost optimalization decision.
We need to replace Su-22 and Mig-29 as all parts were sent to Ukraine and Russia ain't gonna sell us more.
They have low operating costs. So for a day-to-day duties they will be supperior choice over F16 and F35.
Hope it gives some local prespective.
Do you have any good (polish language included) sources confirming that most of the PT91s have gone?
best info I have suggests that Poland still retains the tank as part of the fleet
@@PerunAU He can't have. We know about one division (so 58 or 44) and way later some reports which suggested that roughtly 100 were delivered, but it was very dobious.
So technicly Poland still operate PT-91 and T-72 (T-72 probably few, where most of leftovers are left to be spare part donators)
@@PerunAU There're no official sources. The best one are Ukrainian ones.
They very often thank us for stuff we've never officially sent.
"For all of their technological advantages, the Americans have not yet mastered teleportation."
As an American I can confirm that this is not yet possible for us however we are working on rectifying this issue.
Yeah they thought about rail cannons but quickly moved to freakin laser beams. Like how quickly and quietly that went from testing to on destroyers
I wish we didn't have need for armies and every people would livep eacufully together
Lol
@@olgagaming5544 one can dream, one can dream
You know we'd just use it to got to the fridge and work if it were made public. And for Tindr
One issue that may be a consideration for both Poland and South Korea and wasn't mentioned; both have a risk of being overrun, so it would be nice if you're in that situation to have a strong, reliable partner in another part of the world that can build more of your hardware. Just in case. Also unmentioned in the discussion of Poland's reliance on NATO for security is the fact the Poles know very well that security guarantees are not always honored. (And in some cases this may be due to the inability to honor them as opposed to unwillingness, but that is a distinction without a difference to the country being overrun.)
Yep. Not only SK will have easier time to sell things in Europe when having factories in Poland. But also easy way for USA to support their key allies
Exactly right. Perun just covered the economics of the relationship which is a large reason but I think there are some philosophical reasons as well.
A decade ago the EU wasn`t on the best of terms with Poland at least what I read in the media.
@@tedzehnder961 A decade ago? Try the last few years. The current Polish government is relatively anti-EU.
@@umjackd I think in many ways you have that backwards - as the EU as an entity has seemed to be very anti practically all its member states for quite some time, creating a natural push back... Not saying the EU is bad, but it was definitely looking sickly and showing no signs of fixing itself, though Russia being dicks has perhaps put some more life back into.
I agree with Shannon though - having the gear you know how to use being made around the world as well makes it very unlikely you run out of parts as serious fighting depleting both your and your so very distant geographically partners stocks at the same time is not likely. And with how efficient and fast shipping and airfreight can be the delay in resupply while meaningful is not that bad.
I'm expecting that once the current war in Ukraine settles out, that Poland will seek to recreate the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which included most of what is currently Ukraine. Part of my thought is how much Poland is doing to supply humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, in particular by hosting refugee families. Another part is how horrible the Ukrainian government has been; if Poland is at all better in comparison, and has a strong spine to resist Russia, I think a lot of Ukrainians might soften on the whole "Nationalism" stance.
Poland would gain a *lot* in such a Commonwealth, gaining Southern port access, as well as improving both countries' economies through scale in manufacturing and trade. Lithuania, likewise, plus they have a lot in common with Ukraine in their technology economy.
I also see a lot of Russia's motive for invading Ukraine being (besides the obvious) that, if it can control some of the Eastern Ukraine coast, it can exploit offshore natural gas production that Ukraine was set to exploit with contracts with Shell before the invasion. That would offset the extraordinary expense of piping gas from Siberia to Europe!
What do all of you think? Am I wildly off?
한국이 기술 공유에 관대한 이유로는
한국이 유사시 해외로부터 무기 공급을 원활하게 받기 위해서 일겁니다.
해외에 여러 무기생산 거점을 만들어 놓는것이죠.
That's very wise of you, Poland really appreciates it's true friends. Greetings from Poland 🇵🇱🤝🇰🇷
You have right price and normal to cooperate to together apgrate the product. Be honest to Poland is wonderful
Korea w razie wojny w Azji będzie miała zaplecze w Polsce co jest strategiczne bardzo ważne dla Korei .
멍청한 소리 좀 하지 마라 어휴 한심한...............이제 폴란드애들이 지들 입장 살리려고 지어낸 소리를 앵무새처럼 따라하는 애가 나오네
Jesteś bystry ^^
Jako Koreańczyk chciałbym dodać do podstawowego powodu, dla którego Korea toleruje lokalną produkcję broni.
~
W przeciwieństwie do krajów sprzedających broń, takich jak Stany Zjednoczone i Chiny, jest to sytuacja nadzwyczajna.
Dzieje się tak dlatego, że trudno jest wspierać kraje sprzedające broń.
(Czy słyszałeś o tym kiedykolwiek w Ameryce?
Jeśli kupisz południowokoreańską broń, nie będziesz mógł uzyskać pomocy, nawet jeśli będzie to dla ciebie trudne.
Ale możesz uzyskać pomoc, jeśli kupisz amerykańską broń~ ^^)
One headline poked me in the eye: Why is new model EU army being built in Korea? Anyone aware of the bureaucracy in place in EU, lobbies, politics, slow processes etc, understands why Poland wants a quick solution that won't take 13 years of thinking, 25 years discussing, and 8 years debating. At least.
The decision to create new EU vehicles such next gen tanks and stealth aircrafts have already been made but many of them are still in the development stage and won't be put into the production for decades. So I don't think this is s bureaucracy problem
It's not about UE, it's about Beralus.This big Army its essential to keep Russian away from Belarus.For security Poland and Ukraine specially for security two capitals Warszawa and Kijow.Its going to be war .In one site will be Polish and Ukraine combine big Army supported by Belarusian people and enemy will be Russian bear.This will be the final of Russian empire.
@@nichitapavlenco5606 Germany can't even maintain its military equipment or fulfill upgrade orders for Poland for many years, Or spend their 100bn on equipment because, bureaucracy.
And then blocked because the project team wasn't socialist enough
@@nichitapavlenco5606 We are not even sure these projects are gonna actually exist, France and Germany take YEARS to agree on parts of contracts that are not even the big deal yet.
Thank you for an awesome video :) - as a South Korean I would like to provide some perspectives about those weapon systems and parallel between South Korea and Poland(which I found interesting)!
1. Doctrine of South Korea is heavily focused on firepower. Korea has the second largest SPG fleet (approx. 3000) in the world. This is due to the experience from the Korean War. Often RoK army had to defend massive coordinated assaults of NK army and PLA. Whilst american Army could rely on air supports(on top of their artillery capability), RoK army didn't have luxury of rich air support. Therefore there are a number of crucial battles where the amount of firepower determined the result. Also, hilly nature of Korean favours indirect fire.
2. In recent days, RoK army/airforce/navy is focusing on firepower even heavier. We are acquiring new fleets of ballistic missiles, ALCM, and even korean version of arsenal ship to launch ballistic missile. The reason for it is rather strategical. Since RoK is so much capable than its foe, NK, the task of RoK military is not to win the war but to win the war without losing too much. We are confident that in the case of war, we can definitely erase NK out of the map but it would likely to damage RoK economy significantly, since Seoul, where most of Korean economic capability is concentrated, is only 100km away from the frontline. NK often boast that they can "put Seoul into firestorm" with their massive fleet unguided rocket/howitzers aiming towards Seoul. Therefore we are OBSESSED with how fast we can strike NK before they even start firing the ammunitions. Poland shares the fate of relatively short strategic depth since it borders Russia and Belarus directly.
3. RoK weapons have DNA of Eastern weaponries interestingly. Throughout 1990s and 2000s, Russia payed some of its loan back with their weapon systems such as T-80U, BMP-3, Hovercrafts, Ka-32, Metis-M, Igla. They are studied by Korean engineers and many of Korean weapon system inherits some features from them. For an example, radiation shielding liner of K2 is based on that of T-80U. We have Hypersonic ASBM and BRBM heavily influenced by Russian technologies. I suspect that Poland might have found attractive that RoK has rich experience of integrating soviet technologies into western systems and perhaps hoping for learning some know hows from technological cooperations.
Thank you for this insight!
You are compleatly wrong on 1 thing "Poland shares the fate of relatively short strategic depth since it borders Russia and Belarus directly."
Poland is almost 3.1 times larger than south korea. you could fit entire S.Korea into Belarus, Russia to Warsaw, Cracow (2 largest cities) rectangle, this is also agricultural part of Poland, sparsely populated. The most importand parts of the Polish heavy industry are located along the line from south west up to the end to odra river, whitch are also the ones furthest away from Russia (like 500-600km from kalliningrad and belaruss).
1. YES. Pole = Field in polish. MInsk to warsaw is nothing but agricultural fields. Manuver>firepower
3. I dont think it matters to anyone in Poland. I think what mattered the most was Leopard 2pl disaster, and Korean having opinion (in Poland) of being great bisnes partners.
@@freebird7208 Yeah I agree that the battlefield environment is quite different in Poland and Korea. Sorry if it sounds as if I implied that the polish military should or would have exactly the same doctrine. Poland definitely has much more operational depth than RoK in that aspect. However, their operational depth is much shorter than countries like UK, Germany, Japan or France. Compared to them, Poland and RoK would be on the similar side of the spectrum, though Korea would be on more extreme end.
I am not sure about what Maneuverability>Firepower is supposed to mean here. In defensive war, maneuverability is not as handy as it would be in an offensive operation.
For 3. I agree, that it cannot be a major factor. It is just a very speculative remark.
@@camustein5233 maneuverablity>firepower, In experts debate (Bartosiak, Wojczal) there is strong sense of doing "active defense", whitch means destroying enemy with your tanks, mechenized troops, on his own side, even in defensive war.
Interesting. Though you guys really should distribute Seul accross the country a bit even for non-military reasons.
Poland: Bring everything.
Korea: What do you mean, everything?
Poland: EVERYTHING!!!
Except for K-Pop.
@@LMB222 xD
@@LMB222 After debates and taking everything into consideration we are willing to take K-Pop for 10% discount for our tanks.
It is not the best deal, but those are terrible choices of war preparations.
Read it with a voice of Annie from Community v=A_iAE2JIyEE
Gary Oldmann
36:30 As a South Korean myself I agree to the Chieftain's opinion. Poland's arms industry at 2021 is the past which South Korean counterpart also went through. For example, South Korea in the 70s and 80s needed a newer tank than the M48. The K1 MBT, the predecessor of the K2, is a tank developed in a partnership with Chrysler, the developer of M1 Abrams. The K9 SPH is made in need for a better self-propelled howitzer than the K55, a Korean licensed version of the M109. Korea knows they don't make the best tanks or the best howitzers so deals can prioritize making new friends instead. It's a more peaceful and sentimental way to "export democracy".
You have to understand sometimes developers stick with older tech, reliable, and try to reduce cost overall depending on the main user's situation such as budget, number, and experience. K9 has outstanding features while it also lacks more complicated systems. Developers knew cost overrun, delays and its consequences.
K2 on the other hand, it was designed to be the best tank, at least the goal was. And K2 actually has many features that became basic requirements for other tanks developing/upgrading nowadays. Way before recent wars. As I'm doing deep dive into this, K2 actually deserves to be called as next generation tank, or "4th" generation.
There's one other possible advantage that you didn't mention. If large numbers of Korean Tanks and production of them is outside of South Korea, then it provides a deeper reserve of possible resupply to the Korean forces in case of war with North Korea and/or China. This is one of the lessons from the Russo-Ukrainian War, that having lots of countries using lots of compatible hardware can sell or donate it back in case of war.
That part of the war in Ukraine was a major eye-opener. Sustainability in the face of a neer peer engagement and how badly some countries are at it nowadays. As a german, I am particularily dissapointed in aspects of the Bundeswehr, were ammo stockpiles are said to last for about TWO days of high intensive fighting, as opposed to the 30 day requirement of NATO. There are not really much stockpiles for artillery or other major weapons systems. And as we have seen, the time for production of high tech equipment is too long due to complicated supply chains. You're not getting far in a landwar with only 100 artillery pieces and 266 MBTs.
Also, due to the dissolution of conscription, the abilities to upscale manpower are really limited.
Very good point!
@@mephisto8101 The US has been telling Germany to up it's game(increase military production and budget) even before Trump said it outloud for the world to hear. You need a domestic market besides the government, this lessons the burden on supply, increases surplus, and the less strict laws would allow us the US to get some better german rifles instead of those weird exports y'all currently send out(Which is just straight money for your economy)
@@brandondavis7777 You're partially right.
After the cold war, Germany had the burden of integrating the former GDR (ex-DDR, as we call it). There was a big incentive on scaling down the massive military expenditure from being a cold-war front state, especially when the money was needed desperadly on other tasks. And because Germany was now surrounded by friendly states, politicians felt they could get away with reduced military spending. After all, the USSR just disbanded and we didn't expect threats from Poland, France, Austria or Switzerland. (Denmark is sus, though, gotta keep an eye out for them...)
As opposed to Britain or France, Germany did not develop a geo strategy. To be fair, after two world wars, the world was not so eager for Germany to have this kind of ambitions. Until recently, which is still kind of weird as a german.
Oh, and German arms trade is on place five of the world by country. The issue is not with markets or technology, because we have both in repectable quantities in comparison to the size of the country.
The issue is with "kaputtsparen", reduced spending until systems become inoperable.
Ammo is a good case. Helicopter flight hours another. Spare parts for submarines.
Hell, spare parts for practically anything.
@@mephisto8101 The point of introducing a civilian market, isn't the market or lack of them, it's the increased and consistent supply. Partially why you'll never see guns restricted in the US like you would Europe, it's a human right and it allows us quick access to anything from Ammo, to parts(and variety of arms, too.) Reduced spending isn't a bad thing, but y'all should've been meeting the 2% budget criteria for years now. Germany doesn't need a million man military like the US or China, but it does need more than what it has now, and the supplies to meet their demands.
The Korean model is very true when you see how they expanded their car market in Brazil. Hyundai went from "that one random korean car maker " to one of the biggest car producers in the country.
I was in Peru a couple years ago. at a major intersection, while waiting for the light, I realized every single vehicle was a Hyundai, other than the lexus taxi I was in. like several hundred vehicles at one intersection.
Same in India
They made similar expansion in Slovakia (south of Poland) - created so many factories (French and German car making factories were already there) that tiny Slovakia (5 million) now makes almost as many cars as entire USA and is largest car manufacturer per capita in the world by far. Koreans were able to get in that market and get significant share of it. This has been going on for 20 years now and there were no problems or scandals. This new deal might work well for Poland, Korea is a reliable partner.
The rapid modernization of the Armed Forces of the Philippines can be attributed partly with the Korean buying spree: from the FA-50, to the Jose Rizal Class frigate, to the KM500 trucks, and the Daewoo K3. Seeing this happen again in Poland proves that the Korean arms industry can match the industry of other countries beyond the Asian region for weapons that deliver excellent quality for a good price.
I recall talk of, "The M1 was designed to fight in Europe. Will it work in the desert?" I'd say if the K2 works in harsh terrain, it'll probably still work in less harsh terrain.
🤣🤣 well said
A fair point, but friendly reminder that most of that talk was from “reformer” numbnuts.
The thing is european plain is the HARSH terrain not the hills and mountain in Korea. Basically, you need more armor on tanks that are more prone to taking hits especially hits from different sides.
@@ThePaciorr Hence the K2PL variant.
Hi perun a fellow South Korean here! I love your videos so much that it pains me to provide a criticism. I loved your old format of just going at it. With your umms and uhhs that might sound unprofessional but for us sounded so much connective and conversational. I miss those formats. You don't have to edit those out! They make you more human, more fun like your gameplays and casual discourse! Please! Feel free to be yourself because we are human. We are people aren't we? Thank you so much!
Cheers mate - very much appreciate the comment.
Speak for yourself, I despise umms and uhhs. I'd rather hear someone speak like a robot than hear umms and uhhs.
@Perun holy shit on a popscikle you replied!! Thank you. Please feel free to ignore me and be yourself. As always I cannot express the gratitude of you in these hard times. Thank you!
I don’t think Perun could make me cringe from “too many uhm’s” even if he tried 👍❤️
Best Orange & Black powerpoints on RUclips, by far 🌺
goodluck talking with any humans on this planet that didnt have a teleprompter or a note in their hands
Interesting to see someone outside of Poland talking about the recent Polish army shopping spree :D I would just like to add one pretty big reason as to why our government went full in with Korea, as you mentioned the KRAB chassis is basically K9 chassis but what was really appreciated by our industry was the Korean openness for modifying the chassis on many levels to our needs. Korea basically gave us a free hand to do whatever we wanted and pretty much everything was manufactured in Poland via license or cooperation. Meanwhile on the other hand you got leopard modernization to Leopard 2PL standard which had a lot of drama and been dragging on for many years now. Rheinmetall is very strict on any modifications or allowing to use parts made in Poland. One of the main reasons Leopard 2PL is being produced in such a slow speed is because Rheinmetall didn't allow our industry to manufacture or modify many Leopards parts forcing us to wait on the long queue of them manufacturing them in their plants in Germany or whereever they got their fabs and massive bureaucracy going along with intellectual rights and so on. Personally I think this experience alone of very strict and not willing to cooperate German Rheinmetall vs very open and cooperative Korean arms industry was the main factor behind us going all in with Korea.
To my understanding poland does still do things against the few germans living there (there are videos on this)
Then the staff at Majdanek for example says something different than the USholocaustmuseum and other places- If you were to say the exact same things in germany as the USholocaustmuseum and other jewish voices you`d risk legal trouble and jail in germany for.
And then there are also things like this polish book:
"Ku wrzesniowi 1939. Zbrojne ramie sanacji"
Old newspaper artices like the following:
California Digital newspaper collection
Madera Tribune, Volume LXXIV, Number 98, 24 August 1939
POLE GUNS FIRE ON DANZIG PLANE German Planes Detour to Avoid Attack
DANZIG, Aug. 24. -Early morning bathers reported today that Polish guns fired 10 shots at a Danzig sports airplane and that shell fragments fell in the streets of Zoppot, in free city territory. The German Lufthansa company abandoned direct airplane service, across the Pomorze area of Poland, separating Germany proper from East Prussia and Danzig. Planes were detourned over the Baltic as the result of today’s and yesterday’s alleged Polish firing on German planes.
Why are the statements of polish dilomats and politicans from the 1939 timeframe and before getting ignored?
Why had the polish marshal Rydz-Smigly a oil painting of himself in triumph march under the Brandenburger Tor in summer 1939?
The by now declassified diplomatic exchange also is quite interesting (e.g. DOCUMENT 161 Beck to Lipski in the polish white book no. 110, p.119 and the english blue book no. 102, p. 102).
Also interesting are the books:
In Allied London by Count Edward Raczynski
Hell's Mouth: Confessions of Count Nepomuk
As well as statements and deeds made by Pilsudski and Edward Rydz-Smigly
And more. What happened in poland after ww1, ww2 and between?
Why did the nuremberg trials and other trials follow the following rules:
International military tribunal charter
Article 19.
The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.
Article 20.
The Tribunal may require to be informed of the nature of any evidence before it is entered so that it may rule upon the relevance thereof.
Article 21.
The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.
To my understanding german guilt for Katyn has been established there. How does/did ths case differ from anything else there?
It`s even nudged on in the in things before:
The Moscow Conference; October 1943
STATEMENT ON ATROCITIES (at the end)
"... Thus, Germans who take part in wholesale shooting of Polish officers ..."
Which other "wholesale ...." could have been meant here than Katyn". Especially considering the sowjet track reckord with executing polish leadership and the forced enlistment of more than 100k poles in the red army after Operation Barbarossa started?
Why was and still is international law (e.g. the Hague convention or the UN genocide convention) getting ignored in the case of germany?
@@mrd7067 what does this have to do with Rheinmetall slowing Polish procurement and modernization of Leopard tanks?
@@jordanandrew2786 Everything.
It`s the basis for the post ww2 order and ongoing real world impact, especially because things don`t get cleared up.
@@kruggmichaels8958
I`m always interested in primary sources.
Best from archives of the winning side that can be viewed online.
Not Rheinmetall, but KMW. Rheinmetall is much nicier company.
Korea being far away is a feature, not a bug: they're not entangled in European politics, which is an euphemism for mud slinging and betrayals.
America has not mastered teleportation?
Red Alert was lying to me!
Chronoshpere still needs work. We keep getting dinosaurs.
Fantastic analysis, as usual 🙂
Two aspects to add to that.
1. There is already great cooperation between Poland and Korea. I live in western Poland and my next door neighbour is Korean working for one of many Korean factories in the area. Expanding business even further seems like a win-win scenario for both sides.
2. Given how many kit we donated to Ukraine, Polish army really need new suff NOW. It seems like Korea CAN deliver.
I think how the EU Parliament was treating Poland when it came down to illegal immigration and other social and political views, I`d feel a little nervous about betting on a bunch of liberals coming to my defense. Koreans are sort of a conservative bunch so I can see how you all can get along.
The way that the EU was falling in love with Russian energy and propping up Putin would make me weigh my options too.Do a lot of Europeans value Eastern Europe over cheap oil?I hope so.
I live in Wroclaw and there are so many Korean companies operating here. It seems like Korean companies figured out Poland is a great entry point to the European market with highly educated but still affordable labour due to PPP, and this is just a further development in their economic relationship.
If you own a tv made by LG, and you live in the EU it is very likely it has "Made in Poland" written on the back.
@@tedzehnder961
Yet US led by a liberal(?) president came to Ukraine's defense.
@@tedzehnder961 The EU Parliment doesn't have a problem with the Poles handling of illegal immigration, it has problems with Poland's handling of refugees and general rule law.
Something that actually majority of Poles agree with (current government doesn't have even 40% approval rating, and pretty sue the response to Putin's war carries most of it). But because of our insane voting system, the parliament majority party actually represents minority of voters (45%).
As a Pole I really appreciate him saying "most normal countries" LOL. I can safety say we are not quite normal. ;-)
Much love for this video mate. Peace.
Hmm nawet jeśli to mamy chęć mamy Środki i wciąż jesteśmy "głodni"
First K2 has already arrived from Korea while Poles still waiting for german tanks promissed as a replacement of T72 (PT91) sent to Ukraine.Remember they have kind of war conditions. Looks like Korea is closer than Germany
Well Germany cant Provide the tanks in numer also the timing is not enough to Poland
Culturally for sure. "Show must go on" is the motto in Poland, no matter what's up, the business will continue working.
@@stanisawdebski8897 Of course, you are right there, but it would be better (for most European NATO partners) to use the same equipment; for the simple reason, when you need to use it, it's important to have the same ammunition as your allies.
@@LMB222 Yes if we can take technology we can do a better tank
@@bbell1549 But they are the same
Also, Poland had a problems in cooperation with Germany over Leo2PL and whole Leo2 fleet - there were huge delays, which was somehow connected with fact that the only working assembly plant of Leo2 is in Greece, not in Germany (which has also a huge problems with they own military stocks and facilities)
Also there was huge problem with aproach to modernisation. Germans saw it as "ok we don't produce this to L2A4, so let's change parts for newer, but overall it will have the same specs" while Poland went "ok we are waisting money, so we should upgrade it at the same time, right... right?"
KMW made an offer to Poland but Poland rejected it. Several weeks ago Poland demanded brandnew LEO2A7V, as a compensation for some stored T-72, they send to UA.
Germany: Get lost. To put it mildly.
@@EK-gr9gd "KMW made an offer to Poland but Poland rejected it." What offer?
"Several weeks ago Poland demanded brandnew LEO2A7V, as a compensation for some stored T-72, they send to UA" And your proof for it being true? It was stated by some German newspaper. Later Polish goverment denied it and said that +/- 40 L2A4 would be enough and perfect would be 58 L2A4. I didin't saw German goverment (or this newspaper) denying those words of Polish authorities
@@EK-gr9gd Bullshit.
@@ladrok97 2015 Poland terminated the contract with KMW. wikipedia: Leopard2A4PL, with sources.
Spiegel: 21.05.2022 "Leider ist nichts umgesetzt worden"
The normale way of getting Leo2A7 is modifiying existing systems, to the new standard, except you order them from the factory, like Hungary did.
If Poland wants Leo2A7 they need to place an order with KMW. Germany is not going to gift them for free to Poland.
Something that might be added for context: South Korea already have business investments ongoing in Poland - LG Factories and Samsung. So, there's already a proof that cooperation between those two countries might work. Samsung has R&D office in Warsaw (previously also in Poznań), so it's not only low level factories as one would assume.
yes in SK samsung is 20% of the economy and the other big guys are also a large part . so not a small thing.
Do you know about Daewoo automobile industry?
One of the projects we will do with Poland is the car battery business.
40% of the price of an electric vehicle is the price of the battery.
Germany and the United States are also using South Korean batteries.
So Samsung, LG and SK will invest in Poland to supply batteries for electric vehicles to Germany.
Poland has a lot of STEM talent pool including a lot of women in the industry which enlarge mentioned pool by a lot.
As a Korean, I'm proud ^-^
As a Pole im proud and really grateful for cooperation. Together we can do more!
This rapid emergence of the export defense industry in the RoK seems quite amazing to me. You would think Japan could do the same, but apparently they are far from it.
@@cacogenicist Overall I'd say their heavy weapons designs are too limited by a combination of geographic circumstance and scale. E.g. In a defensive setting, Japan is a logistical nightmare as the only reliable transportation method is the railways. The Type 10 has a problem of needing to conform to railway width standards that are much narrower that the rest of the world. Japan is still mostly 600-1067mm. Average globally is 1435mm. Thus a design philosophy focusing on a lighter tank which translates to using L44 instead of a L55 gun, abysmal side armor, and lack of APS. To compensate, they increased chamber pressure and leveraged their advantage of an excellent transmission with a very light frame to quickly accelerate out of any potential counter battery. There is also the issue with their constitution limiting the number of tanks produced for domestic use keeping unit cost high. Not to mention a lack of the best marking tool, "trail by fire". Now as a potential procurer you have the choice of the Type 10 with all its quirks with a price tag of 15 mil and no examples of its effectiveness in combat, or any 3.5 gen and above "normal" MBT. That's just one example and I'm not even gonna try and explain Japanese bureaucracy.
@@ljyljy88 - Interesting. That Type 10 is a cute little guy. Sounds like it's the tank your want if you need to go backwards fast.
Having spent about 9 months in Japan, I can at least roughly imagine some of the bureaucratic anachronisms and absurdities.
Perun, you are so absolutely right that all those purchases are also about transfering technology. But you should also remember that the whole deal is not only about hardeware, tanks, planes, SPGs. Poland is also concluding high level talks with S.K about building of 2 (atleast) nuclear power stations, and new korean hydrogen train engine technologies. So it is way way bigger than only K2s and such. Awesome work Perun, awesome. Happy New Year.
Because first nuclear physicist Maria Skłodowska -Curie was born in Warsaw And nuclear polon is Mamed after Poland ( latin Polonium means Poland) I am glad, that we will buy a nuclear technology from South Korea and US. We deserve this i think. Greetings from Pl.
I served with the Poles 20 years ago in NATO exercises, not long after they'd joined the club.
I was really struck by their determination to learn NATO standards and practices. I was amazed by their hatred for the Russians. That was 20 years ago. They are likely to be far better now even than they were then. I'd imagine their anti-Russian feeling is stronger now.
Not stronger. Still on 100%.
@@maciejkukla9615 There's always pushing it above 100% "I not only hate *you* I hate everyone who *associates* with you."
The Poles still maintain the memorials and graveyards of their dead caused by the 1920 invasion by the Bolsheviks.
Given Poland's _long_ history of abuse at the hands of outsiders, not to mention past glories (stretching back 400+ years), insuring it's national defense is _not_ a passing fancy.
god Finland, the Baltics, the Poles and Ukraine just absolutely fucking hate Russia
Not to mention the murdered 30.000 soldiers and officers at Katyń, 123years of occupation, trying to remove our nationality from existence, making us a slave country in the warsaw pact era. Taking all of our nuclear material, stationing thousands of troops in our territory for decades. Did i miss anything?
Excellent analysis. There is however one more very important aspect: politicial leverage. South Korea is the best partner for Poland that is politically independent (or least dependent).
While nominally US and Germany are allies of Poland having Poland dependent on delivery of US or even more so German armaments makes it much more politically dependent on US/Germany. Just see how Germany built NS1&NS2 against Polish wishes. Germany could push through various EU project in it's own interest having this leverage over Poland. Of course, there would be no explicit threats but the implications are obvious.
South Korea being far away and having not totally different threat of N.Korea and even China/Russia near it's borders not only has no conflicting interests (or not as many) but also has emotional and intellectual understanding of Polish strategic and political situation. The two countries are natural partners.
21:15 - it's very simple, T-72 PT-91 -> to Ukraine, Leo's fazed out and replaced by Abrams and K2PL. In the end there will be 2 types of tanks Abrams and K2PL. Abrams mostly in armored divisions, K2 in mechanized divisions.
It was spot on👍
"win - win" deal for Poland and Korea and hopefully for all other countries in Central and Eastern Europe
50 minutes 18000 views.
Fair to say we enjoy your time, effort and content. Thank you!
Best Ukraine related content on the web.
5 hours in
81,000 views
24:00 You're right... i would be annoyed to spend 15 minutes talking about that. I'd expect at least 90 minutes from yourself. Keep up the absolutely amazing work.
13:55 HSW opened one of Europe's most modern barrel plants about three years ago. Currently, all KRAB barrels are 100% Polish.
When training with Polish army in 2014, a Polish officer told me that "The Poles have put on the square hat for the last time." I doubt many will understand what that means, but it gave me a chill down my spine and I believe him.
Pls enlighten us..
Rogatywka
because they don't want to show their status/ rank in the army to the enemy snipers?
It seems to me Korea and Poland are building a great relationship.
I mean shortly after the Korean weapons deal, Poland and Korea also announced a NPP deal for Poland.
?NPP
@@johanmetreus1268 Nuclear Power Plant. At present, the Polish energy sector is over 70% based on coal and lignite. There is a plan to build several nuclear power plants over the next decade - the first power plant is to be built by the Americans, the second by the Koreans.
@@teer7461 Hope they'll look into thorium as fuel, as that would increase the independence regarding the fuel supply.
Excellent, soon Russia will be caught in a Ukraine/Polish/Sth Korean pincer. ☺
@@johanmetreus1268 India is building thorium I believe as they have loads of deposits of it. Its early days, but hopefully they pull it off.
Perun, being halfway around the world isn’t bad for cost competitiveness. Shipping is unbelievably cheap, especially compared to the cost of a modern MBT. I design ships for a living. Believe me, my industry wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t often cheaper to build things far away from where they’re needed and then move them. You could build a bunch of MBTs in Korea, drive them onto a ship in Busan, and sail them to Gdańsk, and the added cost would be barely more than a rounding error on the cost of each MBT.
I live in Busan.... Wish I had an engineering degree to work for one of the large ship builders in Ulsan or Gojae or a weapons manufacturer in Changwon.
Well, but it takes time and in order to sail profitably, huge ships must be full. One full ship could probably take third of whole Polish order, took month to sail .... and be prone to be lost with single torpedo.
@@piotrd.4850 I'd assume shipping tanks from the US is pretty much comparable in terms of time and risks.
@@piotrd.4850 Yeah, but in peacetime, you don't confiscate the whole freighter and fill it up with military hardware. Korea's selling boatloads of stuff overseas as it is, you just load up 20 containers worth of stuff on every boat to Europe and it arrives piecemeal. No one ship is a stupidly high value target.
Also....if that did happen, I feel like Poland would have a decent cause for invoking Article 5 on whoever decided to torpedo a third of the new Polish military hardware.
@@rashkavar
If someone decided it is worthed to torpedo a shipment of military hardware, I think we are approaching a ww3 situation, if not already in one.
Ultimately, Poland will only use K2PL and Abrams tanks - PT72 / 91 will be shipped to Ukraine and Leopards will either be in reserve or sold. Personally, I like Leopards very much and 3-4 years ago I thought it was the best decision to develop our armored weapons fleet base on cooperation with Germany. Unfortunately, there was actually no other option. Firstly, France and Germany did not want to allow Poland to the MBT project - which is strange considering the willingness to buy over 1000 vehicles! If anyone wants to read, I suggest an article from Die Welt from 02/01/2020 - I am giving a German source so that no one would accuse me of my Polish propaganda .... Describing the situation, German specialists are surprised by the decision of Germany, warning that this will lead to the exclusion of the German offer from future Polish purchases. Unfortunately, they were right :( In addition, in Poland we ran an endless project to improve Polish Leopards to the 2PL standard - I wrote an endless process because it is a series of problems and the number of upgraded tanks is symbolic. It is also worth mentioning that the waiting time for spare parts from Germany is counted in months, and if someone wants to speed up the process, he must additionally pay for acceleration! Although I like Leopards, it was the only way out - buy K2PL with full technology transfer and make it yourself at home :)
Mass production will lower costs for both Korea and Poland. Word is that Korea plans to purchase more K2 for themselves as the price per unit falls due to economies of scale.
Why buy a K2 for 8 million if you can wait a bit and buy it at 5-6 million.
Not to mention, Korea has over 2000 tanks, so it's not desperate for anymore.
I saw Perun, and never clicked so fast
100% this!
The fastest click… In the woooooorld
Perun and drachinifel, two of the best channels on RUclips.
we need a perun powerpoint addiction group anonymus.
Dude, I'm Polish and I'm supposed to study for a boring exam. You're actively forcing me to procrastinate!
No no no, don’t put your procrastination on Perun. Humans are procrastinators by nature
Good comment and good luck with your boring exam. Good wishes from England .
prep using bullet points of the key issues. Write out 10 times so you can repeat them blindfold. Perfect Practice prevents Piss-Poor Performance...
Good luck with your exam!
Fellow student from America
If you're Polish you get better info than from "The Chieftain" from Wolski.
ONE IMPORTANT FACTOR: Let's not forget that South-Korea is a country that is technically still at war. And if/once the conflicts enters a new active phase, local production capacity may fall to extremely low levels. It is an excellent risk mitigation strategy to have an existing partner able to provide you with your own tanks in that event. Things CAN go both ways. If I was a South-Korean military planner and most of my hardware was locally produced in a country still at war, I'd be more than a bit worried about that and I'd want to explore partnership options.
Of course, this wouldn't be one of the most important items on the agenda, but I'll bet you anything that some bright people in Seoul have figured this out a while ago. ;)
This is a very interesting perspective
Wasn't the war ended? Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but I thought Trump actually managed to negotiate a treaty with Kim in 2018 or something. There was a meeting in the DMZ.
After looking it up I guess a treaty still wasn't signed but Kim, Moon, and Trump did all meet in the DMZ in 2019 just because of an impromptu suggestion by Trump. They also met in North Korea and had those summits in Singapore which worked some stuff out but it seems there still wasn't a treaty. Trump doesn't get enough credit for his reverse uno card regarding North Korea. Despite all the shit talk and threats he's the only one to have ever gotten that close in relations and actually visit NK. It was rather impressive.
@@MintyLime703 LOL You believing Donald Trump has the ability of accomplishing anything useful is extremely funny from the perspective of anyone living outside the USA. :P But to answer your question, a state of war still exists between the two countries and will persist until North-Korea finally succumbs to its self-inflicted wounds.
North-Korea tried to have the peace treaty signed but the South saw no reason for that since it meant officially abandoning the whole Northern half of their country to a brutal dictatorship. The fact that no peace treaty was signed meant that a much poorer North would have to expand an enormous part of its budget on defense. And also, it would never be illegal for the South-Korean government to take back the rest of the country.
This creates a state where the North-Korean government only stays in power through extreme repression. But once it starts crumbling, it will fall very fast, with most of the population wanting nothing more than a decent life under a democratic regime. The South can then simply cross the DMZ and unify the country once again.
But if that happens, the delivery times of those tanks back to Korea will take days not hours and this is only if you have enough inventory, transports and routes secured.
@@michaellim4165 Yes. Your point being? As you can see from the Ukrainian conflict, a constant flow of new hardware is vital to slowly replenish what's being lost. That's how the Russians are completely exhausting their military capability right now. They had no clear sustainment path.
You plan on everything you need for the start of a conflict. But if you don't also have the means to replenish lost equipment, you are bound to lose in the long run. Remember: Logistics wins wars.
Perun is simply the best I've found when it comes to up to date international military analysis on youtube in terms of detail of data and depth and breadth of knowledge. The real cherry on top of the sundae is his spot on wit. Being the best at what you do and making it entertaining puts him in a league of his own.
This video and the video he did way back in the spring are excellent. Both massively increased my understanding and convinced me of the importance of Poland. Everyone should also be aware of the humanitarian efforts they've made for the Ukrainian people. An example for all of us.
Vital for so many reasons. They surround Kaliningrad, they’re the bridge to the Baltic states through the gap, they’re willing to fight, and they fight like Ukrainians.
You don’t hear them crying about energy bills when Russia is raining death on Ukrainians; they just send them artillery, tanks and ammunition.
If only all our allies were so wonderful, unlike so-called allies that are essentially fifth column like Hungary.
Glad to see them stepping up after they had floundered during the refugee crisis. Hope Ukrainians are able to get to safety, wherever they are.
@@andyl8055 And I am sure that Poland would much rather have South Korea as an ally than depend on Germany to be there if the shit goes bad. Plus if Korea goes bad, SK could do worse than having Poland in it's orbit.
@@andyl8055 if I were queen of all the land, I would have one loss for Russia for attacking and terrorizing Ukraine, be to lose Kaliningrad. It could become part of Poland or could be a EU special peace and restitution institute. (Empire builders are losers, country developers are winners). Or maybe a high tech area and all proceeds go to Ukraine for several years. How do be get them to give it up? Do like the Ukrainians and cut off all avenues for supplies and cut off electricity, gas, cell phone use and water. Then sit until they ummm…..leave.
@@andyl8055 based
Poland did give a try to upgrade its fleet of LEO 2A4 its called LEO 2PL. Apparently working with German manufacturer proved so encouriging that Poles decided to run to Koreans...
Poland: Sth Korean never invaded us.
@@SirAntoniousBlock Germany appeared to be not a reliable business partner any more, which is not the case with loyal & professional South Korean approach. Simple as that..🇰🇷👍🏻
@@adriankrajewski85 Would you be a relilable business pratner to someone that demnands discounts so hight that you earn close to ZERO?
I saw someone using the term cash cow. Looks a bit like poland is treating germany like that in many areas. Bad bad germans, right? NO, there are always two in a boxing match!
@@fujiwaraemiko7318 Germans didn't want to give Poland the deal Poland wanted and so Poland turned to SK and US who did offer Poland what Poland wanted. So it was clearly possible to satisfy Poland's demand at terms that both sides agreed to.
"Perun, and the best orange and black military powerpoints that you can find on RUclips." 👍
Polish guy here: technology transfer is deemed critical here indeed. Americans produce so many copies of M1 would create logistical and production nightmare had each customer wanted a customized version, so they're not very flexible when it comes to adapting the type. The Germans.. let's say they are crazy with their laws on contracts demanding their permission on what you can do with the stuff you bought. Also there's a fact that German politicians do what they can to support Russia. Who knows if at some point they can refuse some spare parts to us or new engines because at some point in the future Germany will arrange business as usual with Russia? Historically it's been their policy to cooperate with Russia over the heads of the countries on the way. They sold out Finland to Russia in Ribbentrop-Molotov pact for instance. No, that's not a trustworthy partner.
Yeah Germany went on the deep end (forgetting WW II) and made a deal with the devil in Russia.
Very good observations!👍🏻
"Who is playing K-pop?"- Some Russian conscript about to find out
"This doesn't look like other tanks, is that a WWII tank?" Russian mobiks looking at a K2
The korean government's plan is basically to make Poland as the European market's foothold. One of the major issue of European nations buying Asian weapons is that supply line is incredibly long. Even the tiniest component should be produced and delivered from South Korea and it means months of waiting. South Korea wants to mitigate this problem By building factories in the Poland, thus shorten the supply line and make the korean weapons seem more attractive to the eyes of possible buyers.
The Polish government’s plan is to deny any economic benefit to the petroleum state from which Europe depends upon. Every unit purchased in Europe pays a cut to Putler & co.
and that the european marked is more or less saturated. i mean almost everybody usees leopard 2 or is buying leopard 2
And Ukraine will need to rebuild their entire military as soon as this war is over.
@@KellAnderson yeah but they have even less money than poland. so guess what they will buy/restore: T-72B3´s etc.
Poland has already less than 1/4 of the larger eurpean nations in military spending, Ukraine agian has about 1/3 of the polish spending.
Just the equipment of a Brigade with 2 MBT, 2 Mech, 1 Artillery and 1 light infantry bataillon based on current western equipment (Like Leo2A7, KF-41, Boxer etc) would blow Ukraines full annual military budged. for just the heavy equipment.
Personnel equipment etc isnt even included in that.
Ukraine will rebuild its military, but will very likely retain a very large core of ex sovjet equipment.
Unless NATO buys Ukraine the Equipment.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 and will get them next century 😂
During K2 trial with Leopard 2 in Norway, K2 120mm gun was able to penetrate 800mm armor with Korean tungsten rounds while Leopard 2 with German tungsten rounds was only able to penetrate 630mm armor. K2 can also fire mortar type rounds that can hit at 8km away over mountain and gun has 40 and -20 degree elevation compare to half for Leopard and M1. K2 also has ceramic pellet armor which fell to replace multiple rounds hit compared to ceramic plate which break with 1 hit in Leopard and M1 armor. They both have 1500HP but K2 is lighter thus able to travel faster than Leopard and M1. K2 also has auto loader able to fire twice faster than Leopard 2 and M1 with man loading. Cost is lower for K2 and getting parts is also easier compared to German or American weapons. Transferring technology and help Poland to set up factory to build and supply parts is also attractive which Germans and Americans normally do not offer production in other country. Poland was also upset recently when Germany worked on new tank with France and Spain but blushed off Poland.
Could I have a source for your statistics? Im very curious myself.
Both the (modern) Leopard 2's and K2's use a 55 caliber gun with tungsten rounds. I'd love the source to see how they explain the difference. I can't find any source stating the gun depression of the K2 is -20 degrees. I did see a source saying its -10 thanks to the hydraulic suspension. That's 1 degree more than the Leopard.
The speed of the tanks is limited by their tracks, not their engines and weight.
Interesting. The Leo2A7 is the only NATO tank currently fitted with the L55A1 which operates with more pressure to create more energy output. Seems like Korean tungsten is something special….
Then the Koreans must be breaking some laws of physics to achieve such an increase in penetration out of essentially the same 120/55 cannon.
@@andresmartinezramos7513 Well, it isn't impossible. At a certain point, velocity becomes the limiting factor in armor penetration, and KE ammunition design becomes more important. Who knows, maybe the Koreans really did design a better round than the Germans.
As a Pole
This presentation is great but weirdly enough omits 2 key factors : SPEED & AVALAIBILITY
This buying spree was basically organised around one simple question :
What if russian invasion of Ukraine becomes WW3?
Let's start with HIMARS. I know that this sounds ridicoulus to the outsider - USA has 400 and we want 500.
But you need to realise that unlike USA we have no nuclear weapons, we have 150 k soldiers not 1 million and we have direct border with Russia.
HIMARS isn't supposed to work only as clasical altirery. It is other role is to work as conventional equivalent to nukes, to be the deterrent. Basically if you can't nuke the Kaliningrad, but you can himars it - practical results are the same and so is deterring power
As far as Korean buying spree goes - we didn't buy these tanks for technology transfers nor because they were the best. We bought them instead of nominally better german tanks because
1) We don't want to wait a decade for these tanks and german defence economy is infamously slow due to paperwork
2) We don't want political strings attached to these tanks
3) We don't trust Germany and have good reasons to do so.
NO IT IS NOT WW2. IT IS ABOUT PRESENT ERA
Basically german reliance on russian gas, economy based on supporting authoritarian regimes like China, and germany hellbent on becoming sole hegemon in EU means that we have opposing interests.
We don't want scenario like ,, ok, you paid for our tanks but we really need russian gas, so as a deescaltion we will hault productions, i hope you understand, kisses" or telling us we can't transfer tanks to Ukraine or keeping these tanks in Germany if WW3 really does broke out.
Proverb ,, a bird in the hand is worth two in a bush" is best summary of reasons behind choice of Korea .
Fact that Korea is half a planet away is advantage not disadvantage from our perspective because it means we have 0 tension and conflict between us. What would otherwise become infuriating political process full of negotiations with unreliable partner becomes simply free market capitalism, just a business like selling tomatoes .
Another advantage of ROK DIB you forgot to mention was their electronics industry. Samsung is one of the big three silicon producers, and does a lot of their own design for electronics. Heavy industry products like tank engines need electronics to run, all the sensors are likely made with Korean electronics too, and the electronics is one less thing that a third party like the US or Germany can attach strings to in a tech transfer deal. The US trade war with China and US sanctions on Russia illustrates how much tech transfer restrictions on electronics can hamstring a country's military.
K9 Howitzer was designed and built by a Samsung subsidiary named Samsung Techwin back in 1999, before Samsung sold that division to Hanhwa, which was then just an explosives manufacturing firm.
@@davidjacobs8558 sounds like a good pedigree for an artillery producing firm; electronics and explosives.
we don't need to worry about electronics, since our military electronics are top notch. Look at WB Electronics, PCO, Radmor etc.
Engineer here. I worked with South Korean engineers before. They certainly have the capability to bring their military to the next level, but the treaty they signed with the U.S. restricts what they can do. If there is a sleeping tiger in the Asian military technology community, South Korea would be it.
Sleeping? Think they are awake... LoL!
Wouldn't Japan - if they really focus on it - be able to catch up though, thanks to its strong automotive & heavy manufacturing industry...?
@@Haamre yeah, they could but that peace constitution tho.
The missile agreement between South Korea and the United States ended completely on May 22, 2021. Currently, South Korea can develop missiles without restrictions on range and warhead weight.
@@user-du8ve9jy6q On paper, yes, but not in practice. America will continue to get involved in South Korea's R and D, as they did during the KF-21 development.
You forgot to mention that in 1939 Poland was in strong alliance with UK and France. How did that help? I did not. More - while defending UK in Battle for Brittain Polish forces were charged a fee! for staying in UK. Poland paid in gold that was deposited in London for eqipping it with spitfire planes to be able to defend UK. This is the one and only cause where a nation helping to defend had to pay the nation it was helping. So Poland learnt its lesson. Alliances are nice but tanks are better.
14:07 - Borsuk, has indigenous unmanned turret. Krab's AS-90 turret only reminds its original as existing documentation was sketchy at best and HSW had to redesign it heavily. On top of it most important part of Krab is its BMS (Topaz) made in Poland which has a very high praise from Ukrainian soldiers for ease of use.
Canada here...thankyou Poland for being a great friend and supporter of Ukraine.
There were some substantial Korean investments in Poland in the past. Daewoo used to run car manufacturing in Poland. LG has a big battery factory, and Samsung even has one of its research centres in Warsaw. Recently there have been talks about Koreans chipping into the construction of a nuclear power plant in Poland. So this will be yeat onother significant investments in Poland.
Daewoo also had a factory in Romania but was totally unable to compete with the domestic Dacia. And I'm not even talking about the new Dacia, I'm talking about the old one (the $3000 one). When Romanians build a (car) model they first establish the price target and then move forward with the design and manufacturing process. The Daewoo ( selling at $5000 ) was not able to beat (the old) Dacia at $3000. Then when the new Dacia came around ( at 5000 Euro) was much better than Daewoo. Daewoo sold the factory to Ford. They are not highly successful either. It's hard to beat a manufacturer such as Dacia where cost-effectiveness is pretty much a religion.
@@victorcretu7741 Daewoo was a Chaebol that took some risky decisions in 1997 Asian financial crisis. Samsung and LG survived by austerity. Daewoo tried a gamble by taking on more loans. Never really recovered from it. One of our Indian conglomerates took a piece of the pie by buying their heavy commercial vehicles segment. Another South Korean motor company SsanygYong Motors also got affected by first the 1997 crisis and then the 2008 crisis. They first got sold to the Chinese and then to another Indian conglomerate. It was then that they registered their first net profit in 2015 after almost a decade of losses. But then they couldn't sustain so the Indian conglomerate sold it after absorbing the tech from it. This year its back to another Korean Chaebol that plans to drop the name SsangYong itself and rejig the company for EV market.
I suspect South Korea's declining population and an anti-immigrant work culture could cause similar issues for many other Chaebols few years/decades later.
10:20 Relying on your allies is not a strategy that's gone well for Poland in the past
Unfortunate but true. Trusting any European power is like Russian roulette.
To true
Perhaps, but Poland isn't strong enough to produce on its own. The country simply has to rely on foreign components.
@@ThePumpkinRot Poland learned on this fact, we don't have any trust for Germany and France for sure, we trust US and UK somewhat, because it's in their intrest to save NATO, sure, but France and Germany would sell us to Russia in a moment.
Yeah, look how it turned out in ww2, left under the hold of the SU..
This was excellent. Thank you for the clarification on why Poland is moving in a new direction.
South Korean heavy industrial capability is certainly impressive.
Operation- "Cause Polish mainteinance crews to have PTSD episode" is a go!
They're hardened already. They've been taking care of a tank fleet composed of two variants of Leo2 and about four variants of T-72. And of Kalashnikovs together with other Kalashnikovs redesigned to fire NATO rounds. And of F-16s with MiG-29s in neighbouring hangars.
@@elgenerico6263 All polish t72s have departed to Ukraine already
I mean...they got rid of old T72, will get rid of PT91s (basically T72) very soon, putting Leopard 2s basically into reserve (or resold to eastern NATO flank...Czechs and Slovaks are confirmed to get 15 Leopards from Germany, Romania and Slovenia were looking to replace T72s.. poles selling theirs would be smart), using Abrams as a mid-step until they build enough local K2s (and reserve later)...and finally use only K2s.
They might be buying shitload of stuff, but its still working towards less variants overall or common base (like the Krab/koren chassis) in mid-long term :D
@@radio_aktivist Yes and no. PT-91 is a T-72 variant too.
Tanks are obsolete
It looks like a long-term cooperation between South Korea and Poland. It is not only about military technologies, but also civilian ones. On October 30, 2022, a contract was signed for the construction of the second nuclear power plant in Poland (the first is to be built by US).
Wait, what? AFAIK the US companies, not S Korean, were selected to build this plant - right?
@@OneMonster You are right. I corrected the original comment.
This is such a fascinating video. Great to use the (i assume) Irish technical expert in the narrative.
I can see Polands Baltic neighbours and Ukraine being very interested in the Polish kit in the future.
Thank you
A
I was privy to the So. Korean plan to produce their own homemade tank - initially major systems provided by different foreign companies in the early 2000s. Eventually, they planned on eliminating the imported systems . In 2004, my Armed Forces was offered by KIA to set-up their assembly factory IF we order a minimum of 1000 units of trucks - and get into a joint venture production of the units (tech transfer). So, the Polish order of 1000 K2 units makes sense (in their DIB development). *By the way, my AirForce (PAF) was the first to use the FA-50 aircraft in combat (2017) - and it was very accurate in delivering "dumb" bombs. 🙂
Polish tank requirement checklist:
- Points East
- Blows up Russian tanks
Good one.
+ doesn't get blown up by RuSSian tanks
03:50 .. here we go! Totally reasonable hour to be learning about military modernisation. This is my favourite weekly video.
It's 12:00 in uk
Aye, it's 6:48 here
Only 19:54 here in Indonesia so actually reasonable.
13:00 here
Sadly, 10pm on a Sunday has become one of my most anticipated times of the week. from Brisbane
한국산 무기를 구매해 주신 폴란드 정부와 국민들께 깊이 감사를 드립니다.
한국도 폴란드와 같은 타국의 지배를 받는 고난의 세월과 역사를 보낸 어려운 시기가 있어 동병상련의 마음으로
부디 폴란드와 국민들을 지키고 방어하는 유용한 최적의 무기가 되었으면 좋겠습니다.
폴란드의 평화와 무궁한 발전을 기원하며 거듭 감사드립니다. ^^
Dziękujemy i pozdrawiamy naszych koreańskich partnerów!
한국 파트너들에게 감사와 인사를 전합니다!
Thank you!
"Jestem głęboko wdzięczny polskiemu rządowi i obywatelom za zakup koreańskiej broni.
Korea miała również trudny okres w historii i trudności pod rządami obcego kraju, jakim jest Polska.
Mam nadzieję, że będzie to użyteczna i optymalna broń do ochrony i obrony Polski i jej mieszkańców.
Życzę spokoju i niekończącego się rozwoju w Polsce i jeszcze raz dziękuję. ^^" for all ppl who need translate to PL , thank you bro!
You don't need to thank. It looks like win-win option 😀
T Translation of Korean. Raon Haru
1 year ago (edited)
I am deeply grateful to the Polish government and people for purchasing Korean-made weapons.
Korea also had a difficult time in history and hardships under the rule of a foreign country such as Poland.
I hope it will be a useful and optimal weapon to protect and defend Poland and its people.
I wish you peace and endless development in Poland and thank you again. ^^
Isn't it also true that European manufacturers do not have large enough production capacities to the scale and speed required by the Poles? It will probably take years and years for Germany to deliver 180 Leopards. After the collapse of Soviet Union, Europeans downsized their military greatly and the defense industries while South Korea has had to maintain large armed forces and matching defense industry throughout .
Its obvious you dont buy militarny equipmemt from your enemies;)
From 1979 to 1989 West Germany produced 2100 Leo 2 and that was just the order for the West German army. At the same time they had to produce around 800 for Holland and Schwitzerland. So even with downscaling the production needing several years to produce only 180 does not sound realistic. You are talking less than 10 every month at best.