Buddy Mikaere & Julian Batchelor debate co-governance
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
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Society is strange, we fought for decades for equality between sexes, racees, religions etc. Now it seems people are fighting for divisions based on race, sex, religion etc. We are all human and should all be treated the same.
Only one group in the history of mankind has fought for equality.
@@mjanny6330what group is that?
@poncholarpez6233 the westerner.
How you are treated, should depend on how you behave.
@ColinIzer1111
We should all have equal rights.
excellent moderation of the debate Sean. you put mainstream media hosts to shame.
The Kermadecs should be a wakeup call for anyone who thinks co governance is a good idea, maori have flatly refused to allow a sanctuary to be set up there, why, they have never fished that area so it isnt a 'traditional activity' The idea that they are any sort of conservationists is absurd.
Rape and pillage that is not caring
There are cases where fisheries aren't the be all, end all as well.
Give them some Koha
Ethnicity shouldn't be a deciding factor in decisionmaking. Decisionmaking should be based on facts and evidence.
No Maori should be appointed, elected they are not special or indigenous
@@berniefynn6623 if NZ is to have affinity groups in politics then each affinity group should be electing it's leaders. But there should never be any affinity groups in a healthy democracy.
@@berniefynn6623Maori have every right as we do to be elected , if they run for office and win that's who we have chosen .
@@nzbrotrev9028 Yes, but this going to maori to consult has to stop, they are NOT indigenous and not to be appointed just because they are maori which is the way this government is going
RACISM is across the world
So never mind Maori NZ will just keep paying taxs in support of NAZI war in Urkraine...nz colonists can keep having their cake b'cos Maori don't have a right Treaty signed by the Monarch of the day 4 equality.. Ur a joke Julian U 4get Tamariki now are of mixed race Maori + wat do u call them? I ask wat will u say 2 them when they challenge U Julian lock u out of meetings? lets remind U they're the next leaders of NZ+ world ppl like u are out b'cos of colonist attitude of how it shud suit ur colonist trates we will never have PEACE ✌🏽 or so u think? No shoes who cares shoes will stop the destruction from Cyclones Earthquakes active volcanoes? 🥺 Plz
Early Maori history - Maori themselves wiped out 1/3 of their own Maori population during their musket wars.... the genocide of the Moriori.... in 1837. Much of Maori history is cruel Maori on Maori - slavery, land grabbing, cannibalism... All this is history and belongs in the past - we must move on together as one people, side by side... all races that make up NZ working and taking the country forward together ensuring that all our peoples have equal rights. We will always have our Maori people, their culture and language featuring in all aspects of the country and our lives - this will continue, however all races which make up NZ must always be equal in all things... there should be no such thing as Maori Elite and there is no place for Co Governance... this is pure racism.
@kaywarren8344 The Musket wars started 1820+.. almost 20 years of war by Maori on Maori... these wars resulted in 1/3 of the Maori population being wiped out... in this time frame 1837 the genocide of Moriori..this is fact...so you learn your history... I am 6th generation kiwi so don't need you to tell me about NZ history. .. What has Namibia got to do with it?
The morihori part is funny. Maori wipe out an entire culture then play the victim when England kills a handful of Maori. Both are bad but Maori are far worse. If you disagree. Find me a morihori.
@@mvb88I'm half maori and I don't moan about anything lol see this is the problem. This guy brings racists people like yourself out in full force and paint people with the same brush. It would be like if I said all white people are mass murderers. And not back in the primal days either. Recently lol. See how stupid do I sound. And that's because I'm using your logic
Nicely said and I agree 👍 💯
@@mvb88maui solomon
So Buddy says it's racist to decide who can come into a meeting based on race, but it's not racist to elevate people into positions of power based on race?
In a nutshell
🙌
Both actions are racist.
It is racist, the question is- is it right, if two of those hundreds of races mentioned are going to call the shots 🤷♂️ ...who should they be? 🤔...
@@robertschutt850Well I guess you judging and labeling people racist could indicate you are also racist. Free Speech and different world views are important so what did you think Buddies ageism comment re those who attended his meetings. Especially re Maori respect for their elders, judging and labeling and offensive to many or does that not matter?
Are Maori elder to be disregarded in the same way as Buddy disregards the elders of other ethnicities?
Yes. Merely because they are Maori, or are of this or that ethnicity does not give them authority to speak. What gives them authority to speak is that they are a free citizen of New Zealand (like every other subject of the King) and benefit from the Bill of Rights Act 1687, which still has legal effect today in NZ.
@@socialite1283yes added to Magna Carta rights 1215 and the more specific to NZ Bill of Rights Act passed into law 1990 .
@@warrenblake5554 If I understand it correctly, the NZ Bill of Rights Act 1990 only applies to what the government does. Does not apply to anyone else.
@@socialite1283 , the provisions of the Act don't appear to provide for any discretionary powers to the Government ?🤔 eg the tenet referring to the "right to refuse a medical treatment , proceedure or intervention "seems to define the rights of citizens . Not the rights of Governments to dispense with thereof .? Otherwise it would make little sense to exist, since the Govt already has the right to Govern .Perhaps a legal expert might elucidate ?
@socialite1283.. did a little research and it applies to everyone , including Government entities not exclusively . Human rights cannot be held exclusively by anyone , we are an egalitarian democracy . Still under Magna Carta which confers those rights on all . To make any exclusive right to any demographic would be a breach of magna carta which is the reason Queen Victoria , could not " rule according to her wishes " and grant a deal such as co Governance or partnership to Maori when Her protection was requested , 3 which was not also extended to all other British subjects . The offer extended to Maoridom. was to become a colony by ceeding Sovereignty . As is contained in the NZ Charter ,the letters /patent which NZ was founded on in 1839 .
Re , The BORA ,which amonst many other rights , includes Medical rights .to wit : Freedom from discrimination . Patients cannot be discriminated against , pressured or taken advantage of ( the Govt mandates appear to have breached that right , ie coercion equates to pressure and unvaxed were without doubt discriminated against )
: The Right to refuse medical treatment .
Patients can refuse any medical treatment they don't want . ( this inalianable right was ignored by Govt mandate )
: The Right to be free from medical or scientific experimentation.
Patients cannot be subjected to medical or scientific experimentation without their consent .( Having no long term data regarding mRNA , longevity could not be ascertained at the time of the mandates nor could long term efficacy , Transmission was by Pfizer's admission to the European Union ,was never tested , therefore the mRNA gene therapy was experimental in nature )
Informed consent is another tenet of the Bora . Informed consent was, it appears deliberately blocked by censoring information sources on social media, when the Govt asserted that they were the one source of truth . ie, without the means to collate information , informed consent was not possible .
It would appear that the Govt was in breach of the Bill of Rights on multiple levels . Each of these breaches must be tabled at the Covid pandemic inquiry stage 2 .
Buddy needs to sharpen up his manipulation tactics. Just because he says something doesn't make it true
does so. ask jabcinda
same with buddy - he made unsubstaniated claims , nearly all was coloniser bs
Thank you Sean for arranging an opportunity for such an important discussion. For me, the derisive gigling by Buddy on the other end of the phone while Julian was talking revealed much. That Buddy then refused two invitations to join in further open debate convinces me he's an activist attempting to demolish democracy by refusing to honour free speech, universal sufferage and equality. These actions seem to satisfy the definition of treasonous behavior.
Yes his laughter said alot!!
Thought it interesting at the end, he was offered a meeting by Julian to a thousand Maori to explain the issue and Buddy decided he spoke for all Maori and refused the offer, a bit presumptuous I felt
Sorry to pop your celebration but neither of these 2 men spoke for me I have my own voice!
@@mariecoombes8344 Its not a celebration. Its simply a majority view. See latest electoral pole. Keep smiling.
Free speech you support is RACIST 😊
Congratulations Sean. Masterful chairmanship of this discussion. Buddy made his case but he wasnt as convincing as Julian. I believe in democracy and cogovernance is a contravention of the Treaty.
Because his case is based on lies. Buddy.
Yeah, no it's not.
bollocks, what a pile of bs. hahahaha, man what an ill informed pov
I agree with you @Namdnyh... when the treaty was signed in 1840 we became the first true democratic country in the world at that time... something I have always been very proud of as a 6th generation kiwi on Father's side and 7th on Mother's side... and you are very correct Co governance is dangerous and not democratic in any way and certainly does not live up the the expectations of the treaty when every citizen was declared equal with equal rights.
@@valeriehughes1008 where is democracy mentioned in the Treaty?
the issue is not just about co-goverance but also, free speech and who should have it. julian is standing up for what he believes in and thus should be allowed to, in a set up that he wants, esp if the police has advised him to do so. just as buddy is allowed to have the opposite opinions. interesting that buddy couldn't really come up with he found was racist, and then used the ageism card. i have been to one meeting and watched a couple. what i saw was, concerned people of all ages, sex, etc. who wanted to hear julian's opinions and to share their concerns about what is happening to this nation. i what i see is happening is similar to the land clearances in scotland and ireland back in the mid 1800's of which is why many of our ancestors came to this nation to seek a better life , as did mine. what is happening now is just a step backwards in so many ways. as a nation we will fall if we do not put side our differences and unite as one people. thank you sean for allowing the debate
I had to laugh at Buddy's poor attempt at comparing Julian to a klan member at the end there lol.
Thank you for clarifying the ages. Free speech and different world views are valuable, abuse is not.
Interesting comparison to the clearances, it was helpful.
@@mjanny6330and his argument that the clan is thriving. It's only a handful of idiots
So Buddy thinks that you are less of a citizen if your NZ ancestors don't go as far back as his. He reeled out so many tropes with rose-tinted view of pre-1770 Maori.
Right on the button mate
Disappointing response from Buddy Mikaere. He was not prepared to debate the subject or even meet with Juian on a marae. His only response was to call him racist. This is typical of the maori elite it is their way or the highway and that attitude builds resentment which will spill over if people are pushed too far.
None of the issue of eels being released from hydro dams etc is about Maori in particular, rather general ecology. Any biologist will promote the need for protection of nature and its creatures.
He’s saying Maori have special knowledge.
Yet the ministry of the environment already has restrictions on overfishing etc.
That has nothing to do with race.
Exactly, Environmental have it covered....Maori contribute to environmental so I don't see what the problem is for needing extra Maori input..
@@speeddemon9555 The ultimate power should not be racial. But that is what some racist Maori and other actavists want.
People are entitled to believe in dragons, fairies, ghosts, etc. Though that doesn't make them superior to anyone else. and they shouldn't be able to dictate to others based on a superstition. An actual grave site maybe. But not a myth.
For all we know the whole point of cultural legends was to cause people at the time to be afraid etc. Using that fear the elite could control the common people and slaves in Maori culture. What was the "Taniwha" we were told to fear and lost basic human rights over recently? Thats right, Cov-19. Very cleaver. Invent a problem, cause a reaction, create a solution = control people. Just like what some Maori are doing here. Some kind of Blood and Soil fantasy.
@@andreatodd3095 The problem is that "Maori input" = Veto rights. It means using race to control others.
It means paying for everything twice.
Its one thing to have Maori opinion, its another to need extensive consultation and exaggerating race and the lying about the meaning of the Treaty and extort race based funding. We already have a ministry of the environment. Consultation is all the Government does. Wastes billions of dollars consulting. End the gravy train. End the race based scam industry.
That is a great letter thank you
I thank Julian Batchelor for holding all these Stop Governance Meetings. We need to stop racism in NZ. Thank you Julian.
hahahahaha
Hi @lindac8237, I agree racism should stop, but I'm telling you now we are very, very divided and I can only see it getting worse. Interested to know what you think would stop racism? It's easy to call things racist but perhaps the term doesn't really fit properly. I am assuming that you mean stopping cogovernance would stop racism, when what it really is doing is pushing maori further down. You know very well there is a massive majority white people in new zealand, which would result in no maori at all in government. You can say, well that's how people voted, but it's not a fair fight. If nz was 70% maori majority, don't you think the government would look very different? That's why cogovernance is important. If you care about maori, you would agree cogovernance has its place.
not much chance of that when you have the government and UN supporting apartheid and race based policy.
Yeah let’s stop it with racism idiots
@@loop1479 wow, you really have gone down the rabbit hole haven't you. Sorry for you, must be tough having to live with that much negativity
Do not give up Julian. There are a lot of people who are on your side. In regards to the scallop beds being shut by Maori...It is strange because its them that take them all.
Yes Julian keep up your recoupment drive
Buddy seems a sad individual, intent on division, suppression and living in the Dark Ages. He needs to move into the light and accept that we all belong here and are entitled to legal equality.
When a community hall or other community centre is hired by a private entity it become a private event. It is not open to the general public to enter without challenge. The same applies to shopping centre, business premises and dare I say government buildings and maraes. I wonder how many Maori would be in existence if other peoples hadn't settled in New Zealand and were would full blooded Maori be in present day. This bring into question what is a Maori as apposed to European as most Europeans have numerous other ethnic groups in their DNA as do so called Maori. WE ARE ALL NEW ZEALANDERS and we all need to move ahead together instead of moving back to pre 1800's
exactly, well said. part of this conundrum we now find ourselves in is due to the he puapua document that was introduced to our parliament by stealth via mahuta and under the governance of ardern. This has lead us further down the road of the socialist trap, which is just a short walk to communism. NZ is frighteningly close to be handed over to not just tribal elitism, but communist agenda. We are trading a very narrow tight rope. If labour get back in government this year, we will be fast forwarded to the ethno tribal take over of our politics and daily existence, which is the lining of the agenda towards the relentless march of socialist communism. this documentary helps to show just how far and deep the psychology of this narrative is: ruclips.net/video/1fDWZjvNUC8/видео.html
I believe he had an invitation for the event inviting the public. as to your question on how many Maori would exist if other people hadn't settled i think probably a lot more as Europeans brought a lot of disease to Aotearoa and lets not forget the murder rape and scorched earth practices on indigenous population. I'm surprised Maori are still here.. I think the settlers thought they had got away with it but now in 2023 Maori have a voice that you are continually trying to silence but i believe boomer your time is up.....
@@stealthmodestudio your analysis of how many maori may still be alive is incorrect. They were a self imploding race, due to genocide, canabilism, warring. Globally knowledge was growing around sophisticated methods of living which was pushing toward exploration, extended life for all nationalities, improved living conditions, health, finances, laws, education and so on. In fact globally all but a few islands were already part of modern life styles... maori were a ticking time bomb of implosion.. If left unfound a few more decades, they were enroute to no longer existing at all. It is only through the arrival of foreign nations, that maori even exist today. even then, there are no full blooded maoris.
Maori typically poach the fisheries disproportionately as a race, yet continually, they claim they are the best conservatives of fisheries. Ironic is the world!
TRUE they always take more than their share
no bro some pakeha, isander, chinese, indian, phillapino steal kai moana. Maori who do not steal kai moana bad people do!! Maori have a treaty which hands them the right to gather kai moana as a cultural issue and shall not be infringed upon!! There were no other cultures at the treaty signing, only Maori and Oppresser.
@@jinjaman101 Maori weren't oppressors? Read your history, stop being Buddy, choosing what historical facts you wish to use.
@jinjaman101 If the maori met an actual oppressor, they'd be extinct lol.
@@jinjaman101 Opperssor (not 'oppresser') or liberators? Would you really like to live in 18th centry New Zealand? I thought so.
Good to have this debate. Thank you for presenting both sides unlike the mainstream media.
Nothing in the treaty about partnership,a lie, Māoris are subject of the English Crown, nothing more, we are not a two tier country and this consulting must stop,they can make submissions
Absolutely correct..
the treaty wasnt signed with the crown , it was the queen
its not a tier system like now - its a equal partnership arrangement with queen, with queen looking after immigrants and maori looking after their own
point out in treaty and preamble where it says anything else
you also forget the treaty is submissive to the he whakaputanga
@@malcolm-danielfreeman5940 the Queen i the Crown
As a Māori, I agree with julian, all Kiwis are the same equal. Throwing the racist card, demonstrates exactly Julian’s point. This has cause separation of the people. In a word Stupid.
Amazing.... a debate on co-governance. What a novelty in the current dictatorship.
I think people had views about parliament in the late 1970s. That was similar.
Free speech and different view points are great. Not so much when they say nothing constructive or original. Comment like that in a dictatorship might see you locked up. Interesting
I think Julian more than made his point. I think the majority of "normal" NZers would agree with his stance.
The sooner we all treat the people of NZ as New Zealanders who are all seen as equal in the eyes of the law, are all offered the same opportunities in life and have option of freedom of speech if they choose then this country will become a better place.
There should be no place for racist views or woke agendas... surely common sense should prevail.
all lives matter eh ? racist views and woke agendas, hahahahaha, so so wrong
Great interview thank you Juilan for telling the truth. I wonder who paid for Buddys trip to America kkk?
No more like the IDL!
@@speeddemon9555Ha ha ha 😂
Guilty pakeha lol
@@speeddemon9555 I like your joke with TeHuapapa...still laughing!
Julian offers to speak directly to M and Buddy claims it's a waste of time... 🤔 And Buddy hasn't read the HP document.. 🤔
Gotta say that Julian is killing this debate. Well done Julian.
You would say that, you're white and share his point of view right?
@@lindsayj56 The Maori guy doesn't have an opinion. He has no reasoning, hasn't read He Puapua, can't say why Julian is a racist. He comes off like an idiot
@lindsayj56 Your racism is cringe lol.
@mjanny6330 are you not white and share his point of view? I'm sure you won't admit that, you'll come up with another insult. An admission you have no argument to that.
@@lindsayj56 Julian Batchelor hasn't considered the obvious question (because he's a racist), if Maori did nothing and owned nothing, and the Europeans who arrived were all-knowing and all-seeing bringers of light and tranquility; then how come the Crown thought it necessary to have an elaborate conference (for the times) and to get the tribes to sign this treaty? You don't form a treaty with someone who owns nothing and is considered lesser. So, the act of having the treaty is all the evidence necessary for a partnership being in existence. This view has been upheld by the courts numerous times. On the subject of Batchelor's meeting, he prefers to preach to the choir. Initially he promoted public meetings held in public halls. When people turned up who didn't agree with him and pointed out his errors, he tried shutting these meetings down (he cannot do this, he has no more right to prevent freedom of speech than anyone else). To get around this little problem, he now holds private meetings and excludes anyone he thinks may enlighten him.
New Zealand has hate speech laws and I invite people who attend these meetings to file complaints with the police. He is clearly inciting ill-will and being insulting. Under the NZ Human Rights Act 1993, that is the threshold. If convicted, he faces up to $7,000 in fines and 3 months in prison.
Thank you Julian for holding these events and highlighting the apartheid rules being implemented in NZ.
Buddy came across as an ignorant activist, unwilling to listen to another perspecrive.
Sad the activist cannot be reasoned with... constantly repeating the same old narrative and when proven wrong still blindly repeats it over and over to re convince themselves of their argument - going in big slow circles.. Many grass roots Maori are against Co Governence because they know their lives would not be better as a result and the Elite on the top (who are already on NZ rich list) will have even more and feed their tribes crumbs... this grass roots group you will not hear speaking out...but perhaps on voting day they will have their chance.... NZFirst certainly believes in them.
It's clear that the majority of New Zealand (being white) want cogovernance gone. What will the result of that be. A completely white government. That's what the people commenting here want right? Otherwise why are they here. You can hide behind democracy, but isn't a government that is dominated by one race (the majority race) just as bad as segregation? Look, I don't for a second think that a great difference will be made to my life by having maori representation, but it's important to have a seat at the table, to have a leg up because the majority of kiwis don't care about maori culture and majority rules. Maori culture is a huge part of our national identity, just because somethings not important to you, doesn't mean it's not important.
@@lindsayj56 pretty certain there are plenty of Māori in Government (some are even leaders) and things are in place to ensure it stays that way. Māori representation is quite literally everywhere across all of New Zealand in most things already and it is growing so why the need for what ever Co-Governance is? Of course people are going the question or debate it, the problem is even now nobody is prepared to say what exactly Co-Governance means, its all "oh don't worry its just this and that and its already here", as soon as you get told "not to worry" by officials, history dictates you should worry. Buddy is right in one aspect, it should NEVER have been called Co-Governance. It also should have been an open topic and document shared by Labour from the get go and not hidden, they still cannot answer anything about what it actually is and means at a granular level, and that's the rub, high level not really good enough, fine print, the devil is in the details (look at the treaty mess). Also calling the Majority of New Zealand being "White" is quite Racist itself and divisive, No person is truly white and pretty sure you would call me out if I claimed the opposite colour for a certain race/ethnicity, perhaps a less racist term could be of Predominantly European Decent, that would cover a huge amount of the population and is also very inclusive of Māori of whom most would also carry predominantly more European Decent than Māori, that way People Like David Seymour could be classed as Māori (because he is) rather than "White".
@@JupiterAce2 Well said - thank you!
@kaywarren8344 do you realise just how ignorant your comment is?
Nope, or you wouldn't have made it. This is your average lefty, folks. When they show you who they are, believe them.
Buddy was issued a challenge and walked away
If Maori head back to the marae and live according to historical methods of hunting and gathering they might run into environmental problems with the authorities I would think, to qualify, with any other authorities outside of the governance of a Labour Govt as we have now. Buddy's all at sea in this discussion and sounds like a racist biased Maori person unfortunately. This is exactly what the Labour Govt has foisted on us kiwis as a way forward, a divided country, and that's despicable.
Will the Maori bring back the death sentence in Maori Courts?
@@Brandubh1965Sentenced to the hangi pit out the back.
@@rod-contracts1616 Like the French incarceration of convicted Alan Mafar and Dominique Prieur the Rainbow warrior bummers rewarded a punishment to serve time on French soiled holiday camp easystreet. Maori are pushing for 'Marae based justice'.....Reward for crime is only going to see it increase. schidt even I'd climb a Kaianga Ora roof for free takeaways !. or Ram Raid and Burglary, Agravated Violent GBH for a marae based fishing and hunting holiday punishment with waiata and hui . (paid by the colonialist government )
Where i can further my apprenticeship of crime learning from other paid career holiday makers learning and refining extra curricular Breaking, Entering and Car Conversion skills, etc.
I reckon i could apply at the cop shop for one of those "Wanted for Rape" job vacancies and be pretty good at it. My Indian mate at the airport currency kiosk is wanted for conversion but with all the curry he eats he's still on the run !!!
This comment is despicable, can't help government bashing. Regardless of who is in government this problem has been around for decades. It's a worldwide trend. The Rights of Indigenous people is not a ÑZ invention. Free speech gives you the right to share your views but not to be abusive.
So very correct Steve!
Great interview Shaun, thanks to Julian for publicly viewing your opinions which is what everyone I speak to by-in-large agrees with and thank you Buddy for your perspective. I don't agree with everything Julian says but the arguments Buddy had offered, had no substance other than because Māori were here first and the longest, based on their race they should be treated specially and have more rights than everyone else. Based on that Logic, being a 4th generation Kiwi, I have more rights that someone whose ancestors have only been here for 10 years, awesome!!!.... Buddy stated Julian was raciest and when pressed, offered no proof. Yet another example of the raciest card being played which this government is so afraid of and is creating policy from.
I agreed with you until the government bashing came up. Moriori were here first and moved to the Chatham Islands because of some Maori tribes and their pacifist views. The genocide and enslavement by some Maori tribes seems a lot less harsh than the so called colonisation. No reparation was ever given to them by Maori or government. This situation has always been here in some shape or form.
A Maori best friend for many years would shut down any talk of the the enslavement or cannibalism that was practiced by some tribes.
Just to clarify, we're not to discuss this government or how maori enslaved and ate their prisoners, did I get that right? No badmouthing this pitiful government and no remembering history. Gotcha.
@@prosperity8 n4
@@prosperity8 If I was bashing the government, who cares? They need bashing for what they have done to this country. The fact that they are deriving policy from of cries of racism of which seems lacking in evidence other than someone said so. Allegedly the whole health system is raciest which is one of the reason's the government created a completely new race-based Māori health authority, not to mention race being one of the selection criteria on surgery waiting lists.
@@sleepinggiant5161 What a thing to wake up for. Free speech and different world view of one person, fairly short as wee so don't have your lofty vision.
Re the Maori friend I did not agree with her, but honoured her request, by not talking about it when she was round.
In my short person opinion the blame game and labelling are only useful if it is going to improve things instead of constantly moaning. Good use of sarcasm at the end there. Sorry I disturbed your sleep.
Mikaere is a prime example of why we don't want people with his warped, ignorant, self-centred attitudes in any position of power or decision making. They turn a one hour meeting into a one month shambles, with no resolution at the conclusion. The costs spiral out of control.
In the Maori world, they are expected to listen to the 'wise words' of their elders, yet he's complaining about the age of the audience at Batchelors meetings.
His comments regarding fish in the rivers. Has he never heard of Fish and Game? Maybe, in his primitive mind, he thinks that trout are indigenous. As for eels, if they encounter an obstruction to the flow of a river, and want to proceed up it, they simply wait for a wet night, then travel overland, and proceed. He's never seen thousands of elvers moving at night, because he's terrified of the taniwha?
Nobody would want to listen to him talking nonsense at the end of their meeting, because he'd go around in circles for hours. Keep him outside.
@kaywarren8344 Define 'our'. A democratic country is not controlled by some mentally feeble, mixed race minority with delusions concerning their brown skin ancestors, They are at the bottom of the heap for a reason, and seek to drag the rest down to their level.
It seems from your spelling that you were educated in the US, so please learn some NZ history before commenting.
@kaywarren8344 Having read many history books including the original treaty.. no where does it say Maori own the rivers, and fish for them alone to control....you silly child, "do the world a favour and read a book" (to use your own quote) or better still read many books - it may improve your grammar and spelling for a start! Your lack of knowledge of early NZ history is frightening!
His CV rundown at the start of this included 'Consultant'. In what? Bullshit?
If they want a co governance then they should only have access to funds that the supporter of this other party bring in. If Maori want to have everything separated then that should also equate to funding, they should raise their own tax, and Maori can pay that instead of normal tax, I guarantee they would no longer want co governance if there was no money to be had. This is about power, greed and money, it brings no benefit to Maori, and complicates everything for the rest of us, and increases costs with questionable results.
Very good .and so true
I think Maori should be able to build collectively in their own land, but not expect the taxpayer to pay for the buildings, and not claim there is no intergenerational wealth. Many colonising kiwis, including myself, will inherit no land or money
The Maori activists are embarrassing their own good people.
This Labour Gvt under JA did this country a huge injustice which has allowed this dragon to rise.
The lie that Maori are indigenous needs to end
True we are all colonists over different time periods.
@@whatthe6532gosh you guys are ridiculous
@@lindsayj56 so what part is not factually correct. Maori are not indigenous peoples of New Zealand.
@eventerry9093 the part where it matters. You don't like Maori, whether they're indigenous or not is irrelevant.
@eventerry9093 people like you have a complete inability to view anything from a different point of view. How white people live is the correct way and the majority will back you up because the majority are white. Put yourself in the shoes of the minority. Do you think democracy is equal for people in the minority. It's the biggest BS argument that always comes up, equal opportunities. Well this country is skewed one way by shear weight of numbers, but it's convenient to ignore that.
They have really mastered the extortion techniques under the pretence of having some unique "knowledge" of environment. As an engineer being routinely involved in this matters I can tell you it's all bs. But everyone is too scared to call them out.
As a Maori I lean more toward Julian than Buddy ... Nanaia Mahuta, Willie Jackson, John Tamihere, Kiri Allan, Meka Whaitiri, Elizabeth Kerekere and Te Pati Maori do not represent me or my Whānau ...
Nice to meet a thinking person.
why ?
Julian summed allllllll this co-governance crap up brilliantly with his straight-to-the-point fact: "it's laughable". Buddy's incredibly weak position of "we fished it for hundreds of years so we must know something about it" is just unbelievable, why would anyone pay egregious amounts of money for such common and easily researched information?? Again as Julian states "you don't need a PhD to know about that". Putting Maori on a pedestal and paying them vast consultancy fees for this ridiculous information simply beggars belief. NZ can't afford this nonsense and we ALL need to stand up and say no to this racist BS, we can see it for the garbage that it is
A tribe owning its own water assets on its own land and using them for supplying water to its own people and to others is not an example of "co-govrrnance".
Julian is so correct..we are multicultural society...all races should have influence with any decision to be made about anything to do with this country. Buddy please do stop looking for slights and blaming others for your faults....
no its a partnership between maori and the queen
theres 2 artners only -maori and british
alll immigrants are there by british
your view is a coloniser immigrant view
I'm of European descent and attended the Nelson meeting. I was stopped by the door and asked a few questions whether I would cause any problems repeatedly. It wasn't a big deal for me. Several people of various ethnicities stood up and disrupted the meeting and they were all turfed out. I was ashamed of their behaviour.
Thank you for sharing that, it supports Julian's perspective.
Free speech and different world views are everyone's right. I was frustrated when comments re the age of the attendees as 70, or over was made. In my experience Maori tend to treat their elders with great respect as do many cultures in NZ but he did not extend this to people willing to listen and learn and make up their own minds.
Thank you Julian you are a bloody star. Much respect to you , a brave man.
That was brilliant Sean and I love Julian's factual no fluffing around answers.
Great job Julian!
I love what you are saying Julian, totally agree. I would love to come to a meeting.
Matua Buddy thank you for your efforts to give such rational and well articulated kōrero
Facts are facts, if you don't have any, you don't have a leg to stand on. Well done Julian.
Thank you Sean for being able to host such a potentially volatile topic with skill and impartiality.
Buddy started off sounding quite gentle and nice but i felt his mask slip as the questions began to probe a but deeper. He seemed misinformed and to have a chip on his shoulder, particularly around the discretion to enter what is a private function. Seemed to struggle with that concept.
You seemed to need to be coaxed to confirm that it is reasonable to allow free speech without disrespect or voilence. A bit too slow to agree for my liking. Sounds to me like you didn't respect democracy and freedom of speech (particularly if you disagree with a point of view).
I will end by saying that people are far too quick to jump to the casual racist slur. It is actually a really awful and hurtful thing to say, and you better be very sure of yourself if you are going to accuse another. It became rather farcical when it sounded to me like you couldn't define some definitive examples of Julian's so called racism. It seemed to me Buddy, that you just didn't like the general vibe and that was your base for the accusation.
I can't see how Budy can even have a valid opinion when he has not even read the he puapua report??
@@mrpainn695 he doesn't need one, the guvmint is buttering his bred.
thank you both for coming along to debate, well done, we need more of this, Buddy you are very confused. People are being forced to sell their land to Iwi. Buddy Maori had no written language, so your history and it's specifics are lost.
There is only two choices; Equality or some type of Racism, and racism, no matter how good intentioned, is still racism
but thank you for coming and expressing your views Buddy, we have different views, but like Shaun I would have a beer with you, you seem a lovely person
Great work everyone
What? - confiscated land? ...can I please get a source mate to check it out? ...sounds either blatantly unfair, or misrepresented.
@@J.Smith-rc6wh He came across as very biased and contrary to me. Not someone I'd like to "have a beer" with.
Since Maori were here first, they have more experience of the Waikato river. Only problem is those that were here first are all dead. Everyone else has been born since and no reasons why Maori born now know more than someone who has grown up here and not Maori.
I attended the Christchurch meeting. I had a maori person right beside me who spoke up in opposition to Julian. He had his say but was asked to leave afterwards so the colour of his skin was not an impediment to his entry. It was always about whether you were disruptive or not.
@dpcam1243 So, was he been asked to leave because he was disruptive? Disruptive in what way? Thanks for your reply!
@@mikesi5531 he was contesting what Batchelor was saying and wouldn't let Julian talk.
Maori should definitely have nothing to say about conservation after all they drove Moa to extinction in a very wasteful way.
😂 Moa can't be brought back by DNA, that option is up to government, I'd be more concerned on a National dept of now in total close to 790 billion 😂 Maori treaty final payment of cash and land assets of 2.6 billion , 2% of the value of land . I think Maori have definitely have something to say . Just a opinion 🤷 , I'd hate to think the cost to tax payers having to fence 15 ft of all roads to stop ( Moa ) hitting cars or getting into city's it would be caos.
Im on Julians side of the debate.
No Co governance one governance for all people all New Zealanders is my view.
And im Maori.
Graeme Hilton
Slavery of Maori was ended by the British,took time for Maori to accept owning a human was evil.I wonder if the slave's decedents still think colonization was bad ?
Slavery ended when muskets got involved and got into many hands . Go read James Cook journal at National Laibary , book it in . There's a peice in there he says " what he found extraordinary that he noticed not one child got struck or corrected by any adults most men seen with children carrying them caring for them , my anster was once a slave but was released by Nga Puhi , as for colonization was bad, it's 2025 and it's the worst the country's crime , murders ,knife crime , loss of jobs , people leaving the country by flocks , price of living , rent for renters , price for homes to pay , 501 gangs or gangs in general, 790 billion national dept , over seas borrowing, John key deals 😆 to his buddy's, land stolen, 2% payouts for the lands, blackrock in the country , Crown dept , and just the over all feel and energy out there in the people 😉 you ask if the slaves decedent's still think colonization was bad , we're all educated here ill let you answer that for me .
How can 5% of the population of the South Island have 50% of the say in all things water?
They don't get a 50% say, they get a voice at the table.
@@RubyBayStore Please inform yourself with the DIA information:
Each Mana Whenua Group will have equal voting rights to local government and the new entities will have statutory obligations to fund and ensure Mana Whenua participation
So equal= 50% correct? or did I miss read this?
@@RubyBayStore Each Mana Whenua Group will have equal voting rights to local government and the new entities will have statutory obligations to fund and ensure Mana Whenua participation
It's obvious Buddy did not come into this "debate" with an open mind, and he hasn't considered anything Julian said.
@kaywarren8344 That is not sufficient if we are to take him seriously he needs to convince us of his point of view. Many were interested in hearing what he had to say, I for one, instead he wasted valuable time being offensive and rude - a great shame.
The toheroa season has been closed for maybe 20years or more now the whitebaiting season may or may not be because of shortages?It seems sad that certain people can gather toheroa and scallops and whitebait,paua,mussels, when ever they want with total disregards to any laws what so ever. And if by any chance they are selling or giving away, no problem.
A rahui stops everyone else from gathering but NOT Maori! Go figure!
Poor British children in England didn't wear shoes. Their parents had to pay exorbitant taxes in their poor condition & were jailed.
Confirms co-governance is a joke
A very bad joke, no, more like a growing nightmare.
F the Treaty and co governance and Buddy in that order.
Simple solution: I have for the majority of my life 'identified' as European as my parents identified as such, but I do not know if I have a single Maori gene (because Maori came to NZ from where exactly?), and I now identify as Maori, and therefore am legally entitled to every advantage/benefit available to Maori
I suggest that as historian tell us Maori came from Taiwan every Chinese person in NZ might have even stronger claim to 'identify' as Maori!
Lets all 'Identify' as we choose - they tell us it's the 'modern' way 🙂
"In the end, they all became maori" lol
@@mjanny6330cher✊🏽🤎
Do you think these people are talking about adding more players to the table? ...or the amount of power the two current players may wield? ...one being equal amounts, the other based on democratic majority ...
I am ashamed of my Maori Heritage, we are so molly coddled and namby pambied and we still cry foul and disadvantage, we are so dumb and incapable, we still beat the missus for not cooking some eggs and beat te kaka out of our kids because we are te patu stone age warriors. Our latest farming exploits are ram raids, burgs, free housing, special grants and handouts, free education, free lunches, free race based programes, lower university qualification levels and maori quota, not merit selection criteria to masturbate woke govt. agenda figures. We have the highest prison representation and crime rate reputations for Rape, incest and violent crimes. Yet if you speak to our koro and kui who claim we have the greatest morality and spiritualism. we have the laziest capable workforce who are 5th generation colonialist government handout recipients. We can't handle Te Honkey firewater, Lion Brown, electric puha, and magic meth so we blame colonisation for our downfall instead of looking at ourselves. We have gone back to the marae to discover our whakapapa had government grants for marae bulding programmes and free training schemes but no change. We have free Health and advantages others don't have. We got Covid kai handouts, and get free takeaways when we climb on the roof at Kainga Ora. We have no shame. No pride. No mana. Te Elite select few Rangatira have stolen it all. Yet it is easy to blame Te Pakeha Kawanatanga and tangiweto racism's tiara tantrums.
@@sclark9011Spot on!
Well said!
As a Māori. I appreciate the debate. A key point raised here, is that these devisive Pro-Maori legislations that have caused fear in Pākehā, are not supported by all of us. For example, I don't think Māori governorship is good for this country. We can't even sort our own Iwi and hapū out properly. 😂😂
We have a system that encapsulates all cultures its called citizenship
Not for long if your government has heir way.
1 January 1949 ALL New Zealanders became New Zealand citizens.
What is that telling you?
An example of the maorification of NZ, fairy stories from Buddy, they are determined to take over NZ.
Maori are the greatest rapers of seafood in NZ for example.
Just another example of JULIAN being the better person and debator
Soemone should tell Buddy that in the USA they have guns freely available - and it is right to be fearful of someone who might have a concealed gun.
In the past I have exchanged comments with Buddy on Facebook and I have to say that his attitude towards myself was indeed racist and intolerant, and in no way was he respectful of me or what I had to say. The fact that I am English was obviously abhorrent to him.
Going to meetings with a closed mind and a big mouth, is going to get you thrown out. That is the basic prerequisite at these meetings.
buddy must be on kick backs as well........
sick of the lies and conmen.....
"consultant" so yes.
I’ve seen some Māori walking into shops saying “This is all gonna be ours soon.” What do you think they are talking about?
so why do Maori think their knowledge is so unique? it isn't, river / sea ecology and survival of species has already been known for decades....they are trying to use this argument as a foothold to gain co power .....
About time people woke up to the fact that Maori are also settlers/colonist, who performed genocide, and cannabilism on an entire race of people morirori??
Buddy was shot down in flames because he is all about feelings trumping facts
I have seen Buddy Mikaere disrupting a meeting of the mild mannered Don Brash at Tauranga Yacht club a few years ago
No wonder he wasnt allowed in to Julian Bachelors meeting I got questioned at the door of Julians meeting and no way would I pass as Maori in appearance
so that argument of Buddy,s is also wrong. Buddy could not give a single example of Julian being racist and he is very definitely not IMO
Don Brash was such a wise head, a gentle mild mannered man who tried to tell Maori all this separatism was holding them back and also warn us what would happen if we went down the separatism road we were on... I was horrified at the vicious mud thrown on him by foul mouth screaming protesters... but then this sort of rabble threw wet t-shirts at the Queen.
"They're all going to die" that's a pretty low comment from Buddy, yes they're older because they're braver and smarter than alot of youngsters who have no idea what direction this country is heading
Buddy is a lost cause.
He sure is nasty too.
Lol, you know we're living in a messed up country when you get called a racist for saying everyone should be treated equally.
Buddies attitude is the issue across the board, sniggering and carrying on achieves nothing! Also denying the true history of these lands is the number one problem. Maori have to stop playing the victim!
What the hell? The government pays very well for the few that play the game well.
Maori are not indiinious people to our country NewZealand.We are all NEWZEALANDERS.
Julian asks dissenters to give him an example of what they disliked, and this seems to be a real difficulty for them.
Everyone should be equal but it seems some are more equal than others....
I want to see the photos of Buddy meeting the Klansmen ?
1 Man 1 vote
Equality under the law.
Maori should just be affected parties like every other industry or religion that is consulted. They can have their view put forward without compromising our democracy.
Go read the conclusion to the "Transforming River Governance: The Co-Governance Arrangements in the Waikato and Waipaˉ Rivers" report and you will see exactly what co-governance is, and it's not co-management at all.
correct. the he pupa report is a dangerous piece of hidden agenda that mahuta and ardern pushed into the lives of every New Zealander. ruclips.net/video/XQuvbnjh6nA/видео.html
How is it not co management with equal representation from both side's and decisions needing to be inacted once all have agreed to the proposed outcomes? ...
@@myresponsesarelimited7895 because it says iwi need to have control over the values and world view to be applied to managing the resource and that iwi have final say on all proposals and implementation.
@@poncholarpez6233 that's not true, under co governance you have a board consisting of 50% elected Maori officials, and 50% crown elected officials, and no action can be taken until all at the table are in agreement of the actions to be taken, of course this can make meetings longer, but both sides are free to disagree so inevitably compromises have to be made. It originated from a school and the way they chose to decide outcomes, I don't get how a simple and inclusive form of governance gets so much backlash, my theory is that older white nz wants full power by virtue of a democratic majority to sidestep having to compromise.
@@myresponsesarelimited7895 it is true, read the conclusions the report found to fulfill the treaty settlement requirements.
Because in a proper democracy people will vote by merit of an idea, not by racial fluffiness. You sound like you want to undo all that civil rights fought for and return to segregation. Sad.
Buddy's strawman of this debate is amazing. He couldnt define how Julian's racist, nor give one example of how hes a racist. But he continues to use this tactic for his argument. Weak!
Buddy, This issue is too important to delegate others to report on for you. You need to hear the arguments for yourself, if you don't you will never understand Julian's point of view.
Choose co-governance or as it should be equal rights for everyone.
Co govern no democratic
Moronic and demonic!!
Omg Julian convince all the other countries to de-cloak their culture and be one human race.
Wake up!!!!
Thanks for your input Buddy. I respect what you said that the views of radical report authors do not represent the views of all maori. The problem is the power given to enforce and propogate these views by the current government
“We were here first”… an interesting argument! Buddy is being slapped by the reality of facts. It is a pity about the Moa but what about the people who were in NZ before the the arrival of the Māori? According to the American historian Thomas Sowell it was nothing more than ethnic cleansing combined with a land grab. The Māori had no interest in previous inhabitants, no desire to learn from them, to record their history, their language and so on. The Māori did what all of humanity has done for millennia, they invaded another peoples land and claimed for themselves. This idea that we shouldn’t go around doing such things is a very new concept and western in origin I believe. A great discussion and the presenter did a great job.
He hasnt read the report or gone to the meetings? Idk how hes so confident
If Maori are talking about not being included I would like to see any proof or legislation in the last 50yrs where there has been Maori exclusion. There has been and will continue being Maori involvement in any legislation being passed, the same as any race in NZ. Maori have.......Maori Rugby teams, Maori Affairs, Maori Party, Maori Wards Maori Cultural promotion and special rooms for Maori in the education sector, Maori funding, Language, voting the Arts, Dames, and Knights Religious Leaders. etc
If Maori think they are not getting a fair deal in this country all supported by every tax payer in NZ...imo,.......they are wrong.
All of these organisations exclude anyone from another race being involved or allowed to join them, so are defined under international law as as being racist.
And legal actions have started to have them all disbanded.
Nothing to debate, it’s not even a starter in our democracy.
Democracy? How hypocritical is that that in your democracy there is nothing to debate!? Isn't that what democracy is? A forum where you debate ideas? How is this a non starter?
Good job Sean! Great debate.
They rowed their logs over here. Then ate everyone and everything here
They had no house before Colonization, now they demand one! 🤣
Idiotic.
You think we were standing in the cold until you guy's turned up 😆Our houses may not have had ballrooms or finished in gold trim. but neither did yours- some worker's even slept in the barn with the pigs.
no wheel or bow and arrow either ..
Collecting muskets like its the next iPhone gtfo
@@myresponsesarelimited7895 It's that tittering behind the hand school yard bullshit. It is all fair based crap. They do of course have best friends that are maori.
@@jaspervanp2346 that may be true, but why did it take so long for your far superior technological culture to even set foot here? ...why did you lose the battle in Russell (Korarareka) and write up a disingenuous treaty? ...why did you experience so many humiliating loses during your land grab day's? ...why did it take a regular army far superior in number and technology 70 years to quell the last vestiges of Maori sovereignty during the nz land war's?
Why did said far superior army get their you know what handed to them so many times by a bunch of farmers in a much smaller rotating force ? You really let all that happen to you from a bunch of cultural inferiors that didn't even have a wheel? Tsk tsk tsk.🤦♂️
This country needs to Get back to God. Full stop!!!!!
One small country, tiny world wide population.
Huge divisions of sexual, religious and race identity.
Division can not be resolved
"medical". you forgot medical.
Maori have no idea on moderation.
Give them the power and we'd have no fish left.
They still haven't learnt anything...its happening today.
The fishery in my city have been closed down due to over fishing their quota and not paying taxes.
Proof that Maori cannot stick to the rules and hold no accountability or idea of moderation.
I brought my family all the way to New Zealand to set up a beautiful peaceful life and have found mysef in the middle of a divisive apatheid battle between races that feels very negative overall - feeling like my family might be in physical danger at some point based on how radical the maori elite are starting to sound. Is my family in danger living in New Zealand? Would it be best to take them elsewhere - anyone have any thought?
Leave while you can, there is going to be a civil war here very soon.
Stay for the bun fight.
@@whatthe6532 Kiwis will flatten this Minority🎯🎯🎯
@@FRED-gx2qk government will stop Kiwis that don't hold their view at any cost. we all saw that in welliwood.
Hi. My family and I emigrated to NZ in 1975 from the UK. When I got here it was in the days of 'bash a pom a day' learnt to keep my head down and lose my accent. Funny thing is it was mainly white kiwis giving poms the bash, never really had a problem with maoris.
Forward to today. This conversation has been boiling away for hundreds of years. But overall most people in NZ just want to get along and have a good life.
Take them elsewhere, depends where you can go, I could go back to the UK, but have you seen what is happening there? no way I will go back.
NZ will go back to normal, I put what is happening down to post covid fever.