Nupur Ji- Excellent Moderator. Ashish Ji- Patience personified (consistently patient no matter where he is making an appearance, where do you get this calm from?) Arihant Ji- Great questions asked (could have been the moderator) Harsh Ji- Brilliant {if he could work on removing the egotistical attitude/tone (self proclaimed), reading his tweets would be more pleasant} Ravi Ji- Knowledge (very sharp & deep knowledge of diversity in India, unbiased) JSD- CHARISMA PERSONIFIED ( BULLET GUY), Each and every point he makes is a bullet & the best part is that he knows that. It was an interesting podcast. Looking forward for more.
It was such a great discussion. And perhaps the most important topic on the survival of the Hindus as caste based fault lines is the most effective tool for the Christian, Islamists and Communists to undermine and convert them. If the Hindus manage to resolve the caste issue the converted Christians and Muslims can be brought back into the fold of Hinduism. Hindus need to choose between fundamental shift from the existing and corrupted caste system and the almost certain and complete annihilation Hindus. I feel we are too addicted to the caste system and don't care about their future - so this kind of churn is certainly a ray of hope.
@@anandrmnn really what about caste based reservation in iit iim amd upsc ? Are hindus doing that or the state doing that ? The indian state and caste based reservation is biggest enemy of hindus
@@Sudhentertainment what about it? caste based reservation should go along with birth based caste discrimination. All of us whine about reservation, but how many Hindus do you see asking for ending the caste itself - the root cause of discrimination and tribalism?
Normal hindus like me have a lot to catch up in terms of real culture, lineages and heritage. Not even for a single minute I felt unplugging my ear-phones.
Most of the Hindus are normal Hindus like you and me who are cut off from their roots. But I am happy that now most of them are curious too to know who they are, thanks to social media and such debates.
We need more such discussions, a kind of intellectual backing to our traditions. By this way we will be able to sort out problems within ourselves and will be proud of us as well. Appreciate this effort of Opindia, please keep up with this. Hindu dharma is so complex that we need such debates and discussions as it takes something to understand this complexity. We are not like Abhrahimic religions where one book, however outdated, dictates everything. Thanks Rahul Roushan Sir, Nupur Ma'am and people in the panel. P.S - JSD is CLARITY personified, big fan Sir.
In Varna system the Brahminism privilege Is to be born in Sattva, live a life of Austerity, pray and educate and strive to achieve moksha. If anyone else has the same renunciatory desire and they practices it like true Sannyasis who have given up all desires are the only true Brahmins left..everyone else is not.
This debate started with a twitter beef between Agniveer and Ashish Dhar. Sanjeev Newar of Agniveer should have been invited. Arya Samaj and Agniveer is pro Hindu but anti birth based caste system they are not Ambedkarites. I agreed most with Arihant Pawariya. It must be known that most atrocities against Dalits are from OBC mostly and Thakurs to a lesser extent, not from Brahmins. The Brahmin scapegoating has not gotten the country anywhere. I would like to see a debate between Ashsish Dhar and Sanjeev Newar.
Every one should be given same time, harsh took most of the time, didnt allow anyone else to put out their opinion, by talking in middle. I think the whole point of a debate is to make meaningful points not putting one point of view.
No, Ravi and Arihant points were general Actually the debate was between harsh and ashish Most of the panel have agreement but harsh have some major disagreement and he will be the one who will be most questioned
@JSD, as I hear you after their initial 3 minutes... boss, you've gained so much respect from me I can't quantify. 🙏🏻 Only thing I am thinking - "a debate on dharma-based vyavstha without having anyone knowing Dharma as such! But then, it's ok. Probably let the things get filtered out during initial stages as we reach to a stage to bring in someone of that understanding. :)
This discussion might give some sense of hinduism to Muslim youths. They should learn how common hindu youths are discussing a topic and not the religious head is dictating the ways of jannat and hoors.
@@arpank6668 to come out of clutches of their religious heads and discuss issues & reforms in public and not just blindly follow mad-rasa, one book . That might help country progress and people live in harmony. They might get terrori$t tag off by curbing and de-radiclising from within. After all once they (Indian Muslims) we're integral part of this same culture. "Openness" "Reform" Etc.
@@anonnymm Lol! Right. Lack of debates & discussions is the reason they become extremists. Maybe they'll reform ''from within" after watching an OpIndia debate. And then finally we'll learn to get along & everyone will live in harmony for ever & ever. . . . I've 2 questions: How old are you & Have you not followed what has happened for the last 1400 years?
@@arpank6668 " Lol! " Seriously? What's the point of asking my age ? What do you think, how my comment came out if I have not known Islam and it's 1400yrs of history? Why don't be clear of ur position rather shooting question to me while u urself unable to understand my first comment? Does that ring the bell?
@@spica-perspicacious-observer apparently, his book shelf's design itself is tilted. Really, my brain starts paining watching JSD's videos with this background.
Good start. Its a very touchy and emotional topic but really vital that Hindu's as a community have a proper understanding of how jatis/castes originated and how it évolved into the horrible system that existed by the 20th century and the way forward to a more equitable Hindu society while still sticking to Dharma..
Great stuff! All of them are brilliant! Despite differences, what a way to engage in enlightening dialectic. I am so encouraged that Hindu samAj has very bright young minds who are passionately engaged in reviving, reforming, rebuilding this great sanatana civilization. Can you imagine this kind of a debate in a system whose foundations are built on exclusivity & dogma? I can visualize that ancient Bharat where young scholars from different schools of thought/darshanas & sampradayas coming together in fierce dialectic to discuss epistemological, ontological matters. That intellectual tradition continues... That's why this civilization is an eternal one. Jai Sri Ram!
Yes , it s not religion but dharma , where everysection has to perform his own dharma like shudras dharma was to serve uppercast , irrespective of his ability or interest enslavement of whole life
@@prataproy3925 according to you the employee and the CEO should be equal. They should be equally respected. But by definition they are not equal. That's exactly what varnasrama means. Employee can become CEO based on his merit. Shudra can become Brahman if he is well versed in knowledge. If you don't know something, refrain from commenting
@@adarshgandhi4277 well , tell me any shudra in last 1000 years who became king , or any organisation in 21st century who practice untouchability with their employees , I never saw a company there is a permanent rule that managers son will be manager or a sweepers son will be sweepers irrespective of his ability .
Couldn't agree more. I've heard him speka at various places now, including other podcasts and he's clearly someone who can speak a lot of words that sound semi intelligent but if you scratch the surface you'll notice they have no weight. He hogs space, knows the least and so fucking arrogant.
JSD is a gem to Hindu society. This concept of video by OpIndia is very good. Please bring more such discussions by different Hindu activists. You may also give chance to trad, political, neo-reactionary section of Hindus. They also need voice.
Great experience to witness this session in best tradition of Tarkik process. I feel more and more that Sanatan shall strive and also thrive going forward🙏
I will explain what 'Ashish Dhar' mentined as naturally evolved endogamy as a matter of choice. Our traditions, from Rigveda itself propose Inter Varna and Inter Jaati marriage (Ashish Dhar mentioned the same - 9 types of inter Varna marriage recognised). Now, the Corruption in the system is that though the proposed structure requires that it's preferable, corruption demands it as compulsory. There is logic behind why Inter Varna and Inter Jaati is preferred. At the onset I wish to disclose this to avoid conflict, I have no issues with inter Varna or inter Jaati marriage, I neither promote it nor discourage it, it is a matter of individual choice for it's a matter of the individual's life, husband-wife is considered as one entity for a reason. Many people argue that such systems may have been valid for earlier times but are not valid today, so let us verify the veracity of this claim and to verify it in today we will use modern example. If one opens up the matrimony ads, people describe their preferences, in the modern times, nowadays many people put up as caste no bar, but have other choices as vegetarian, non smoking, should go or not go to temple, even things like 'shakta' or 'vaishnav', in addition they may also put up their field of work and ask for a person of same field. Let us analyse the above on logical grounds. If I am a vegetarian, I would prefer (for some it is of utmost importance) my life partner to be vegetarian as well, if I don't drink I would prefer that she doesn't drink either. These are the matters of lifestyle, both personal and social. In earlier times this is indentified under jaati system - for Jaati deals with identity, the beliefs, traditions, geographical location, family lineage, language or boli, customs, food habits, deities, etc. are the basis of determination of Jaati - it's the cumulation of 'kula' which is the cumulation of 'family' which is the cumulation of 'individual' and identity which extends beyond personal to encompass larger entities, the true epitome of unity in diversity, India recognised and allowed multiple layers of identities other than Jaati (Gotra - Pravan - Sutra - Shakha) which dealt with lifestyle as per people's identity development). I have personally experienced this, my brother's marriage took place with a family whose beliefs and practices in the institution of marriage and it's traditions were different and this created a lot of chaos and friction, and although the whole affair is done the friction has not entirely abated. Now, to the matter of Job or Vocation. In the west today, there is a big market for psychological issues relating to gap in communication between spouses due to different fields of Jobs or Vocations, this has grown into a substantial problem as is evident by the portrayal of this in the media as well. (This in earlier times was identified as Varna, - due to job or vocation and not birth - this is important as it shows that women were not limited to households but were considered equal participants in the work force). If we further analyse this, the 'gunas' valued by a Brahmin are different than those required by a 'Vaishya', for example the Brahmin's selfless service may act in conflict of profit orientation requisite of a 'Vaishya'. In modern terms, A journalists interests may conflict with a politicians interest, and husband-wife are a single entity and conflict in a single entity is a hinderance to progress. Despite all the above, it is still realised that love trumps all, it is still realised that people learn to work around or work things out, but it must also be realised that different people have different scale of being able to adjust, some very easily intermix and adopt whereas others have a very hard time changing their habits and to expect them to do so would be injustice to individuality. However, I do also realise that this filed isn't entirely 'free choice' due to customs, pressure from parents society has not left it neutral but this injustice should not be answered with imposition of similar injustice such that one who refuses to marry without Varna or Caste is being a Hypocrite. (This point is entirely Hypothetical, I believe that multitude of Jaati and Varna marriage without will not only create friction at a social level but at personal level too. The hotch potch of multiple believe systems will lead to a waning of indentity, extinguishing many traditions which are kept alive through practice within the same jaati i.e the identity basis and thereby a lack of diversity. Many of these traditions and customs are based on scientific principles and have value in addition to passing on knowledge systems, where the scientific understanding of such knowledge is lost, these practices keep alive the knowledge through these customs or Traditions (the devolution of joint family into nuclear family is also responsible for this), so even though the science behind it may be lost, the impact of such practices can be observed and hence knowledge is preserved. This may seem an exaggerated assumption and that is why I presented it from a personal standpoint.) And therefore, I am neutral on the matter of inter Varna and inter Jati marriage for it is a matter of personal choice dependant on individual's personality and needs.
You are very right and have articulated well the points missed by the panelists. Especially your description of Jaati is much more logical than addressed by the panel but I am not sure I agree with your observations entirely on the issue of tradition and knowledgea. Kudos!!
I wish there was a discussion by the panel on 'proselytising in hinduism', but I have a feeling that none amongst them are knowledgeable on this topic, entirely new concept.
@@saritasingh429 Yes, it would be an interesting discussion but I agree with you that no one would be sufficiently knowledgeable. In addition, another question should be comparative study of proselytising in Buddhism and impact on Indian Civilisation in terms of weakening political resistance.
A great discussion. Lots of unknow information, idea, thoughts, logics, perspectives presented, which is very beneficial for me. My view on this debate - 1. Birth based castism is not existed. Anyone can choose any desired job legally. When we come to the small portion of caste based discrimination and harrasment which is left and only existed in some of the rural places. This small portion of injustice which is left is only due to the local corrupt political leaders and judicial machinery. Which is no longer in the hand of other non culprit upper caste peoples or religious gurus. More vigilante, transparent and active adminstrative can change this scenario. 2. Voting for temple trustees by locals or by the sampraday devotees is non sense which only create religious politics. 3. Any kind of reservation itself creates inequality. Providing a special privilege or benefit to a specific community because of discrimination to some people of that community at some places is not giving them justice. Penalization of the oppressors is the only and true justice for the oppressed. Just a small example- there is family where a couple have 10 sons and 7 sisters. All gets 10 rupee pocket money each daily. 3 of the boys usually oppress these sisters on the basis of gender. One day these sister went to parents for justice. Then what the parents should do..... 1. Penalized these 3 sons by physical and monetary mean 2. Or Pass a new rules that now all daughters will get 50 paisa extra and and all sons will get 50 paisa less in their daily pocket money.
Varn vyastha is birth based system only.....jati is birth based too....I'm a brahmin by varna and kanyakubj brahmin by jati....don't spread fake information about our religion....don't fake in trap of anti casteist people.
Nupur, I have seen it full. Kindly do more discussions on jatis with a clear distinction regarding timelines of 3 eras which sai has discussed in the end. This subject is something a little understanding and hindu awakening is there even to the learned hindus. It needs to be debated. Please make different type of topics for discussion in the future or garner some senior experts to throw some light on it. But it should not die down. In this age of internet, it should quickly educate masses.
@Harsh Madhusudan as a Hindu you have all the freedom to Ignore negative discrimination as we Hindus ignore and so birth based Jathi no longer applies and can also be ignored.
I think there still exists confusion regarding the terms 'Caste', 'Varna' and 'Jaati' is the impression when reading the comments, their unclear usage makes uncertain the meaning conveyed. Though Ravi ji appealed that a clear distinction be made regarding their usage, it wasn't done and an overlapping usage of the word 'caste' was done multiple times, which showed that the panelists themselves weren't clear and similarly was the effect in the comments. There must be a clarity when discussing matters of Indian 'Caste system', the forced gift of English also creates communication barriers and hence clear distinction must be established between the terminologies 'Varna', 'Jaati' and 'Caste' (a gift from Lord Risley who was actually a race scientist). Let me try and attempt to draw a clear distinction: 1. Jaati: Jaati deals with identity, the beliefs, traditions, geographical location, family lineage, language or boli, customs, food habits, deities, Trade or Vocation (an overlapping of Varna and Jaati), etc. are the basis of determination of Jaati - it's the extension of identity of 'kula' which is the extension of identity of 'family' which is the extension of identity of an 'individual', an identity which extends beyond personal to encompass larger entities, India celebrates and allows multitudes of Identities, other than Jaati itself there are also sub layers of identities such as 'Gotra - Pravan - Sutra - Shakha' and they provide indentites based on lineage or to the field of discipline in terms of philosphy. Every dimension of human life has an identity system of both personal as well as collective nature (Shaiva or Shakta or Vaishnav are both a personal as well as collective identity simultaneously), a true epitome of unity in diversity. 2. Varna: This is a genius construct of our Social Engineers. Every one knows about Adam Smith, who is credited to have proposed 'distribution of labor' in a concrete fashion. Who doesn't know of Karl Marx, his theory on 'distribution of Power and resources'. The west has filled our minds with their grand innovations and day in and day out we are taught of their grandness (granted Marx cannot exactly be claimed as Western but certainly forms part of the same academia). Whereas we are taught, how discriminatory and inferior Indian developments were, Varna system was nothing more than a ploy by the Brahmins to oppress all others, a straightforward lie ofcourse, nonetheless this is taught in our educational institutions, pick up the 6th standard NCERT book of History and verify this. The Varna system was actually the first known innovation, a genius social engineering plan for 'Distribution of Labor, Power and resources'. Distribution of Labor is obvious, but we must also understand distribution of power and resources, A Brahmin was not allowed to have material wealth and was bound to survive on the alms given by the people, an example which shows this is that Jizya tax imposed by Feroz Shah Tuglaq was initially imposed only on Brahmins, but since the Varna system does not allow Brahmins to hold wealth or power, the tax was paid on their behalf by the Vaishyas and the Shudras. The Kshatriyas did not have the authority to control the matters of economy, which was decided upon by a committee of 'Vaishya', a true free market. The shudra were the Majority populace, certainly more than 2/3rd of the population and unlike the deliberately pushed misconception of Shudra only being conceived as doing the menial and dirty Jobs of cleaning sewers, burning bodies, all the Jobs being done by people other than the above three were Shudras. A goldsmith, a farmer, a locksmith, a cobbler, a blacksmith, a transporter, a painter, a sculptor, an architect are all Shudra and were amongst the prosperous sections of the society. Unlike the false claims, the Varna system was flexible and it was not Birth based but a system of classification based on Vocation, Trade or Job. For ex. I was born in a Shudra (farmer) family, but am now a lawyer (Brahmin) but wish to become farmer (Shudra), and the identity will change as per my current Vocation or Trade. Now the matter of Corruption within the system is ofcourse a different matter. The primary reason for the corruption was 1000+ years of Invasions, loots, killings, rapes, destruction, mayhem, cultural genocide, economic hampering and what not, in addition the failure of our social engineers to address the deteriorating system, especially nepotism. Now Jaati is a naturally evolved system over many millenia unlike the Varna system which was a socially engineered one. This is verified by the fact that when 'Riszley' asked the Indians, to which Varna they belonged to, they didn't know but knew their Jaati. 3. Caste: Caste was introduced by Lord Risley into India which actually had western origin and as usual was an attempt, a successful one, to superimpose their cultural disturbance upon us. Caste can only be defined in terms of 'Varna' and 'Jaati' where India is concerned and therefore following are the distortions which cumulate to become Caste: 1. Loss of fluidity of Varna system and nepotism taking roots. 2. The Jaati being saddled with one Varna or the other. 3. Advent of hierarchy into both Varna and Jaati system and rooting themselves as tenets. 4. Discrimination and oppression based on such hierarchy. So the usage of the terminology casteism must fulfill the above criterion and hence is limited to the discrimination due to the corruption of both the Jaati and Varna system and hence it's usage largely limited to specific issues and in the modern scenerio and therefore other forms of addressing must be opted for discussion on let us say Jaati system hierarchy, for which we can use the terminology 'Corrupted Jaati' and so on. This will ensure the identity of our own systems, will avoid complications, help in better upholding the discussion as there won't be misrepresentations and very importantly a constant reminder of the corruption in the system and that the system itself is not fallacious as is constantly blamed. Further we will not have to rely on a foreigner terminology which was imported and thrust upon india and has nothing to do with the Indian developments.
Wow! Very nicely put, your observation about Varna as Labour, power and resource distribution, just genius. Why didn't we see that before. You should be on the panel.
Tamil Nadu prides itself on doing away with caste yet this state has the one of the largest number of caste based groups...and they hit the SC and ST together
Caste system is by product of over all development of humanity. Count from prehistoric era. Very good description by Pt. Rahul Sankrityayan in his book Volga se Ganga. Caste system has collapsed now. It is politicians keeping it alive. Remember divide and rule by British.
Kudos to everyone. Such a pleasure to hear a balanced moderate intellectual discussion these day. No hysterics, no screaming, no name calling - what a refreshing change. Nupur, we need more such debates.
Great start! Suggestion to OpIndia.com - instead of interrupting speaker for remaining minutes, please have three cards to inform speakers on how many minutes are left for him/her like green for 1 minute left, yellow for 30 seconds and red for utilitizing all allowed minutes. You can use your own color cards. This way no one will get interrupted.
Around 2hr15m mark - Harsh basically repeats his allegation of 'casteist' and ashish is supposed to respond. JSD comes in, harsh comes in, Nupur comes in, Arihant comes in and JSD comes in and suddenly we are talking about khap and ashish does not respond to that point adequately. ☹️☹️☹️
This discussion is amongst people who are English Educated, the formal education system. Then there is the Indian traditional Education system, since it is indigenous to india and they teach Vedas and Puranas in Sanskrit as part of curriculum, their understanding and hence inference of the concepts such as Varna and Jaati is better and more reliable. To watch discourse on these issues by a student of Indian Traditional School, here is the link: ruclips.net/video/ygVuL1GZWFA/видео.html
all panelists present a wonderful balanced discussion on the the issue of caste and its implications and hope to have more such discussions frequently. truly inspired and blessed thank you so much
Very interesting discussion. We must have more of such panel discussions on various topics such as History rewriting, Saffron terror, Bias in media and academics, Way forward for Hindu Unity. Such open discussions are conducive to fresh idea and give impetus to thought process.
To those who want an end to Jati and who think Jati ≠ Jativad: There are two defining features of Jati, as observed among the 40,000+(?) of them(Jatis), regardless of religion, inhabiting the Indian subcontinent. 1. Endogamy "There was no change in this proportion from the previous round of the IHDS (2004-05)." www.thehindu.com/data/just-5-per-cent-of-indian-marriages-are-intercaste/article6591502.ece "Even in 2011, the rate of inter caste marriages in India was as low as 5.82%" "One of the predictions of the Modernization theory is that with the advent of industrialization and urbanization, various non-Western family behaviours will converge towards the Western nuclear family model. As a result, there will be a decline in arranged marriages. Consequently there will also be a decline in the importance of attributes like group identities and statuses of the two families (Allendorf and Pandian 2016). However, such a clear upward trend is not visible from the figure: the rate of inter caste marriages has hovered around 5% since 1970 to 2012. The average for 2000-2012 is marginally higher than 1971-80 and 1981-90, but is not statistically different from the decade 1990-2008." "The Modernization theory predicts that urbanization will be the harbinger of change towards a Western family model with reduced importance of caste and other group characteristics. However, contrary to this prediction, we see that the urban households do not have a higher probability of having an inter caste marriage. The difference between the urban and rural households in the rate of inter caste marriages is not statistically significant." "We observe that for the asset quartiles, the rate goes down as we move up the asset distribution." www.isid.ac.in/~epu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/dp17-05.pdf "Generally it is expected that with more development and education, the force of caste factor becomes weak and thereby increases the incidence of inter-caste marriages. The southern region of India is socio-economically more developed than other regions of India. So, applying the same logic inter-caste marriage is expected to be more common in the southern region than other parts of India. But our analysis shows that inter-caste marriage is only 9.71 percent in southern part of India" epc2010.princeton.edu/papers/100157 "We find evidence for very strong own-caste preferences: for example, our estimates suggest that the bride’s side would be willing to trade off the difference between no education and a master’s degree in the prospective husband to avoid marrying outside their caste. For men seeking brides, the own-caste effect is twice the effect of the difference between a self-described “very beautiful” woman and a self-described “decent-looking” one. This is despite the fact that the population in our sample is urban, relatively well off, and highly educated (for example, 85 percent have a college degree). Interestingly, this preference for caste seems much more horizontal than vertical: we see little interest in “marrying up” in the caste hierarchy among both men and women, but a strong preference for incaste matches." " " there is no reason to expect that economic growth by itself will undermine caste-based preferences in marriage. Second, caste-based preferences in marriage are unlikely to be a major constraint on growth." personal.lse.ac.uk/ghatak/marriage.pdf To summarise: Endogamy rates haven't declined much with time; stayed constant, from when we have data ie, 1970-2012. Approx 94-95% in 2011. No major Urban-Rural divide. Neither Modernisation nor Urbanisation reduces rates of endogamy. Economic growth and consequent increments in income and wealth have no effect on them. & 2. Proclivity towards/Overrepresentation in, a specific field or set of (related)professions. "Occupational identity does have a major effect upon career choice-in India certain occupations are composed primarily of individuals born into that occupation, and the average person is more than 3 times as likely to enter their traditional occupation than any other. Thus traditional caste-based occupational identities continue to affect the selection of occupations well into the modern era." www.dropbox.com/s/iu7as93s3q1dazr/CKK_OccupationCasteIdentity_v6.pdf?dl=0 To be clear, this^ is not referring to enforcement of either of these two things. Neither practise is inherently immoral. Neither necessarily lead to Jativad. The vast majority of Indian-Subcontinentals(Indians, Pakistanis) marry within their Jatis & maintain close ties with these Jati networks. But this doesn't necessarily manifest itself in hostility towards 'the other'. So clearly, to say 'Jati = Jativad' is akin to saying affirmation or expression of any identity *necessarily* leads to Identitarianism. No such conveyor belt exists. If you believe identifying with a Jati in such(abovementioned) ways amounts to barbarism, it is fair to conclude you think India is a generally barbaric place. Understand & acknowledge what you're really saying is that bigotry is the norm, not the exception. Conservatives believe, harmony, is the norm; bigotry, the exception(when we control for population). P.S. Reservations are the only legal form of Jativad.
Dude... Kudos for this well written comment 👏👏👏 If possible I would like to pick your brain. How did you accumulated this information. For a person who is interested to learn more about this subject, where should he start from ? Thanks in advance
@Zed Shaman Actually you have misunderstood the point made. Corruption in a structure does not indicate the actual structure. Jaati is actually identity based, as the comment claims, however it's settling into 'Varnas' which themselves were corrupted by becoming rigid and a hierarchy being ascribed to it, of which discrimination is a conduce, is the Corruption of it. I would ascribe two reasons for it: 1. 1000+ years of Invasions, destruction, oppression, discrimination, mayhem, human genocide, cultural genocide etc first by the Islamic Invaders and then by the British, and not mere political infiltration but cultural infiltration of other belief systems as well through diffusion due to improvement of navigation, this is the prime reason for it. 2. Failure of our Social Engineers to address nepotism. You must read Swami Vivekananda's work to understand the needs of the Human society. The need to identify is a core aspect of human need and hence identity systems will always exist, wether such system is hierarchical and discriminatory is a matter of social engineering and can be addressed. If you have corruption in your body you will treat that corruption and not kill yourself. Similarly, the Indian Jaati system (not caste, caste is of western origin and a gift to India from Lord Risley which superimposes their disruptions upon the Indian Civilization, which adds to the problem and not solve it) has evolved and has been established naturally over the years as a system of identity and no good will come of attempts trying to scrape it off, nor do I beleive such attempts will be successful, what the need of the hour is to end the corruption attached to it.
@R K To you as well read my above comment. Your assumption is wrong, once I identify with one Jaati and feel pride of that identity, does not mean 'not' giving respect to other Jaatis (if you hinge on the use of word equal, then it raises further questions as to what are the implications of equal - as in parity with one's own identified Jaati - implications in social behaviour, what features would you ascribe to it such that it fulfils that criteria?). Same as Hinduism and Abrahamic. To quote Shree Guru 'Rajiv ji', mutual recognition is sought, it does not imply equal belief of the other systems or 'sampraday'. Mutual recognition is sufficient and equal recognition is neither required nor feasible of human nature.
@R K This is actually a very good question and an objective discussion of it would be too long, so I will opt for subjective study of it, i.e limited to India. First, there is nothing wrong with recognition of one's own Jaati over another. Understand this, Jaati is a system of identity which encompasses bigger entity, for Jaati is cumulation of 'kula' which is cumulation of 'family' which is cumulation of self. So we see an evolving sense of identity, where cumulation of 'Jaati' is society. In the video somebody, maybe Ravi mentioned the book 'caste as social capital', you see Jaati acts as a Social security, people of your family, your kula, your Jaati look after you as there exists a common and reciprocal recognition. Even in the system of reservation it is considered that once a certain Jaati moves up it will help it's fellow Jaati people, however here too the same problem was observed as you mentioned, those who climbed up using reservation actually established a class divide based on economics within the Jaati itself and started exploiting their fellow Jaati people. (I would also suggest that you read another of my comment for there are a couple of concepts which I would like you to read for a lucid discussion, it is posted as a direct comment to this video, "An explanation on Ashish Dhar's observation.") The political aspirations and it's logistics for securing it will always exist, today it is Jaati based vote bank, with a new structure, new form of political manipulation will take birth, so I believe using politics as an example is not suitable, nonetheless your observation of Jaati identity being utilised as a hook to ensnare vote bank is right. One may argue that the present exploitation can be addressed through abolition of Jaati (caste in constitutional terminology) system altogether, however I have earlier argued that system of Identity cannot be done away with, if you wish to remove this particular system you have to provide an alternative which is equally valid for people, personally as well as collectively. I will explain this with an example, the post modern theories demand a complete lack of identity national, regional, local, language based etc. in favour of only human identity, sounds fantastic, however let us analyse scenerio where such was pushed in. In developed nation cities, such was opted where young people started shunning all identities, claiming no affiliation with any religion, sect, locality, nation etc., the impact that was observed due to this was that they started forming very fickle and inconsequential identities such as movie clubs, writer clubs, Game of thrones fan club conducting periodical get together to discuss and celebrate those identities, just like going to the church. So what we observe is identities based on fickle subject and untruth or fiction is a waste of resources and lack of identity is not possible, or is it? The westerners as usual got it wrong. Only indian Civilization and it's system is able to provide the answer, since the identities are all based in material relaities it is impossible to establish lack of identity in a material world, where it does exist is in the spiritual world. The path of a sadhu is the only way to shun all identities. Multiple examples like these and readings of great men like Guru deva Swami ji and Shree Aurobindo has convinced me that it is not the jaati system which is the problem rather the Corruption which has ensued in it. The folds of Abrahamic religions is largely due to lack of a proper Hindu identity amongst the Hindu populace (addressing this lack of identity is a very big issue - it starts with the advent of freedom of India and at that intance not recognising the actual themes which represent Indian heritage. The flag, the constitution, the legal system, the symbolic representations of India belie actual Hindu identity). If we were to revitalize Hindu identity, not as religion based but Civilization based, the Abrahamic religions issue would be solved. Now as to the question of self serving interests outside of politics, I believe it can only be addressed through economic sufficiency and growth, but above all spiritual development.
I would recommend that going forward in such discussions it would be better to use an audio indication like beep to inform the speaker that you have only 1 minute left.
In this video, you have identified that the once free system of choice of profession later turned into a rigid system, about 2000 yrs ago. People began to form rigid "families" within the professions one used to work in and in turn, their children follow the same. This is something I have heard from many other videos. What was the reason for this? I would prefer an answer independent of my hypotheses to follow but I post my hypothesis to let you know what I think based on my knowledge so far : Possible hypotheses : 1) Influx of people from outside India (Yeah, the much adored AIT or AMT, maybe sometime soon ATT). There's a paper talking about something called a steppe migration to India, which appears to happen around this time. 2) It was a gradual realization that tricks of trade are best nurtured and evolved if passed down from generation to generation. So children could learn from the experience of their elders and can carry on the profession without committing the same mistakes of the elders A corollary question : Did the vedas precede this formation of rigidity or were they post this rigidity? What new features were added to the culture post this rigidity? If there's not much of a difference, we can safely conclude that the culture is not alien or imported
I was able to extract a lot of knowledge from this perfectly moderated debate. All the panellists conducted them in decent manner. Thanks Nupur ji and Sai sir. P.S. Harsh made least sense
Actually every sphere needs decentralisation - urbanisation cannot change everything ,not everything going to be urban and standardised and regularised - villages as such needs to be economic powerhouses of their own - for that u need right conducive environment , people and their institutions , their guild systems , theit way of justice systems , and region and geographical resources - and that's how Hinduism evolved identifying this and aligning with nature .... Thats how we were ahead in economic progress for 2 millenia - 2000 years continuous - much much much more stable graph of study, to compare and write this off with any comparative study or ol Opinionated mind of his own with a life cycle of a mere 70-90 years ..... Get it right 90 years VS 2000 years....
Ashish takes the position of conserving something, without actually stating clearly what exactly it is that he wants to conserve. By doing that, he leaves the door open for anything at all to come into play. I think he actually is somewhat clear on what he wants, or more specifically what he doesn't want, but doesn't want to state it explicitly, because it will not benefit his position in the present scenario. He refuses to pass any negative value judgments on any historical Hindu practices, but is perfectly willing to do the opposite. Which is very dishonest, if you cannot judge by the standards of today, the matters of past, you should not than judge certain aspects of them, by the standards of today, selectively, when it is beneficial to your cause. Ultimately for the sake of practicality, you do have to pass value judgements(if you have any values) on some matters, because they affect the lives of people today. Ashish refuses to do this as well.
It was a great discussion but I felt that Harsh took a lot of time and other panelists (Arihant, Ravi, and Ashish) were mostly in a listening mode. Please ensure that people get an equal opportunity to express their views. In the general discussion phase, many people raised their hands but did not get a chance to express their views on the ongoing topic at that time.
- 2 moderators are a bad recipe. - why is harsh talking the most of all? - why was ashish ignored so much? - why discuss Brahmin & Shudra only, nothing for Kshatriya/Vaishya? - जाति का विरोध मूर्खतापूर्ण है। जातिगत 'भेदभाव' का विरोध होना चाहिए। आरक्षण का विरोध मूर्खतापूर्ण है। आरक्षण तब तक हो जब तक 'कोई भी' पिछड़ा है। जातियों से ही समाज बनता है। इसको समझना पड़ेगा आपको। नहीं समझ पाएंगे तो इसका मतलब आपको सतही ज्ञान है केवल। आज भी 4 लोग एक साथ कोई काम करें तो उनमें प्रगाढ़ता आ जाती है, यहीं से जाति शुरू होती है। - why sai baba followers use mainstream Hindu props (sai 'arti', sai 'gita', sai 'ram' etc) for a 'muslim peer' who's motto was 'allah malik'? That is considered corruption in Hindu ways by hindu dharma gurus. Why don't Sai baba followers create their own things & consider him a baba only, since he has nothing to do with Hindu dharma shastras.
To whom it may concern, The two factors, the descendance or bloodline and their duty towards the society to sustain it and keep it functional, constitute the inconspicuous attributes of anthropological construct of Caste or jati. So let's have a brief and comprehensive look at the factor 1- we all know invariably that we refer and acknowledge ourselves to be the MANUJ or MANUSHYA. Now it becomes pertinent to ask 'Why?'. Manu the KSHATRIYA himself was an emperor (though what he really was i.e. CHAKRAVARTI Samrat) at his epitome renounced his rule and become a sadhu in search of aatma and parmatma ( one and only Santana Satya as Shri Krishn explained to Arjun in Geeta). So progenitors of Manu were later to be known as MANUJ or MANUSHYA, decided that they would build and enter in relationships with people sharing common traits and characteristics like warriors, researchers and intellectuals, bussinessmen and traders and talents such as designing, metellurgy, manufacturing and service skills in streams like agriculture, dairy farming, horticulture, etc. Thus there began a trend to conduct one the individual and affairs of society on these lines, not to favour or discriminate one against the other but to provide and add stability and certanity to the society. Thus despite the fact that these forms appear or claim separate descendance, higher or lower, for themselves after metamorphism of many millennia but they are still one and share the great bloodline of Adipurush MANU the kshatriya the emperor. Hence each and everyone is Kshatriya. Therefore the second factor is in fact a corollary to the development and crystallization of the well thought-out and agreed and understood norm which people in olden days themselves decided and drafted, pros and cons thereof has now been manifesting itself across all the current strata of our society. So remember we share the blood of that great king cum sage and against all odds and notwithstanding various individual differences viz biological, social and economical we thrived, struggled and survived because we are one and our common identity is the SANATAN DHARM.
ok after two hours.. 😌 not just listening but thinking this practically. harsh is the only one TRYING to bring solution (which is not applicable) and others were just finding problems in his proposal but no one said any corrections to his proposal which makes debate progressive. btw there are so many corrections could have been said which even i have also considered but anyway.. only thing to learn is that just denying the every solutions of very complex problem like this will not help to go ahead. try to think and add something to solutions to make it viable.
Towards “fairness” leads to people’s ruling which is democracy.. always ask , am i fair or is this policy or procedure fair ? That leads to a great place
I have one question for everyone on the panel- what is the plan for getting converted Hindus back to the dharmic fold. Is caste a barrier to that. How do we make ghar Wapsi easy for them.
Caste is not a barrier. First off caste word itself is confusing. It doesn't differentiate between Varna and Jati. Varna was based on profession. ( birth or not) But jati refers to a clan, tribe or a particular ethnic identity. Sometimes all three. That's why people do not let go of their Jati even after conversion or try to find a connection with some tribe from outside however remote. And that's why some new caste or jati keep being added to old Hindu dharma. So if they are converted back, they can simply start their own family name like they did when they converted out of Hinduism. Their profession is their varna.
@@thehawkseye3412 :- Varna was based on profession. ....." Sorry to Say My Friend . It's Not Correct. "Varna" (वर्ण ) Means To Chose. A Human Life Was Cosidrred to Be 100 Years. Hindu Sholars Divided in 4 Parts (वर्णाश्रम) . 1:- Bramhachary 2- Gruhasth 3- Sanyas & 4:- Vanprasth . A Hindu Was/is Free to Chose Any of These वर्णाश्रम
@@srnp0007 That's why when varna were first mentioned, one could choose their profession. Varna as in brahman (priests, teachers, intellectuals) khsatriya (warriors) Viash( Traders) Shudra( labour) is based profession. . Varnashram however refers to four stages of life and recommended way of living for individual.
@@thehawkseye3412 when they convert back to Hinduism, their community from same Jati refuses to establish social bonds with them. That i think is the problem and barrier to ghar wapsi.
Harsh was the most uninformed person. The Puri Shankracharya didn't said the way he is interpreting. He said you will keep on having Intercaste marriages, Interfaith, Intercontinental and when everything would be done you will start marrying other species too. People are already raping various animals which is criminal today but in future it might not be an offence anymore.
yeah he is misinterpreting what the puri shankaracharya said. The problem now is that everyone wants to go by their good feeling and everyone is becoming their own dharmaguru unfortunately
Rubbish. Consent is key in a marriage. Animals cannot give consent. This is the argument most traditionalists who cannot think logically give as to why they oppose inter-caste marriage, inter-religion marriage, homosexuality, etc. Regarding why we kill them for their meat without their consent, there are 2 reasons a.) Humans have evolved to become omnivores, the canines we have are proof of that. b.) In absence of not eating animals, the world will be overpopulated with them. We got to keep control. The food chain exists for a reason and is a biologically established fact. But ah, traditionalists disagree with science and don't acknowledge that evolution is in fact true. You believe God created everyone and everything and all the scriptures and you got to follow your Dharma or else sadgati nahi hogi. What Rubbish. India has had a healthy tradition of atheistic/agnostic religions as well. We weren't like Abrahamic religions which are insecure, petulant and imperialist with a desire to seek world domination. Progress and reforms are necessary and people like Ashish Dhar, who to be honest spoke brilliantly in the panel, calling it self congratulatory bakwas is in fact bakwas, though again I think most progressive woke kids do support and propagate self congratulatory bakwas. Only morons will blindly believe whatever was written in the past. Existence of dinosaurs, their correct age being ascertained as per carbon dating all counter that. The first modern humans, evolved from their early hominid predecessors between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago but nah lemme believe in rubbish stating that the yugas were over a million year old. We had christians say earth is 6000 years old or something probably because they weren't capable of processing huge numbers, it's okay no problem. But now we've progressed. Attempting to do away with caste is not going to end up well. Every community is proud of themselves. Let them maintain that pride, but at the same time, every Hindu should first be a hindu to fight the global missionary nexus, Islamic jihad and marxist attempts to create class conflicts to destabilize society. Discard relics of the past, analyse them, get inspiration if you can, but if you can't then discard it. Being obstinate and insisting that you are right and what you believe in is right even after being proven wrong is just sign of your intellect ( or lack of ). Anyway yadi maine kuch kaha jis se aapki maanhaani hui ho to kripya use prasad ke roop mai lauta dijiye. Jai Shree Raam. Kashi aur Mathura ko bhi wapas Haasil karna hai
@Stratus are you purposefully being an a$$ or were you just made that way? Too bad it's not madraasis who need to become more civilized but rather people like you.
This discussion started of well, however lost its track someway in between...became more of a job interview of Mr. Harsh by other panelists. Mr. Ravi made a very valid point which in my opinion was the crux of the discourse, being, that a society decides for itself what it needs and does not care what someone feels should be the model code of it's functioning. So Mr. Ravi hypothesis or his personal views on a particular practice are irrelevant.
The whole discussion was great and really informative, but the moderators allowed Harsh to speak TOO MUCH!!! By the second half it pretty much became a Vaad-Vivaad between JSD and Harsh, while the other panelists were just spectating mostly or just raising their hand. It's true that J Sai Deepak knows enough to easily counter everything Harsh says, but it could have been like if Harsh is done putting his point across, other panelists(who haven't spoken for a long time) should be asked if they want to comment upon that or add anything to it. Or, have JSD not as a moderator next time, but a panelist. :D And PLEASE LET ASHISH DHAR SPEAK!! :/
@@RohitRaj-rd7tl you did not hear a single word of the discussion did you? The fact that Varna vyavastha was misrepresented as caste system was agreed to by all of the panelists and you just took it in from one ear and threw it out the other!
@@RohitRaj-rd7tl I do agree with some of your points, that BJP has been a little spineless and not at all much different from their opposition in their appeasement of specific communities, just different ones. I especially believe that all sorts of reservations should be abolished, proper resources should be given to those who lack them so they can compete better instead of lowering the bar for them and at last I believe that everyone should be given representation, not just the minorities. And if there HAS to be reservation, then it should be provided to those who lack resources and not based upon their identities and their surnames, because to me that just sounds like state sponsored discrimination.
@@RohitRaj-rd7tl I'd like to add that I just started my UG med college last year so I can readily believe that you must be much more experienced and knowledgeable than me. And I'm prepared to learn from you.
When they were discussing why brides are accepted by muslims from different communities but not by hindus , they should have given a thought to why grooms are not? “Love Jihad” only goes one way. The child born will assume islam from father so it helps the cause of abrahamic views on demographic change i think.
Sain baba was not Hindu. Harsha is free to visit Shiradi but it's stupid to argue that a Muslim Fakir was not a Muslim fakir. And it's kind of fraudulent to make stories about Sain being a Hindu avatar and what not. It's disrespectful to Hindu traditions and to some extent to Sain baba too who was essentially a Muslim. You are turning him in to something he never believed in. It's total baniya business going on how it's being promoted and advertised as a cult of it's own where Sain is put in center or biggest statue in the temple and put stautes of our deities around him as if they serve him and are secondary to him.
@R K Different situation. The people in dubai are a class of their own. I will explain later. The way Indians have tried to deal with castes has been detrimental only. Instead of showing respect for the job and specific skills of different shudra/working castes and removing discrimination, so called reformists took away their self respect and pride in their skills. And their jobs too. Instead of respecting their caste for their important role in society, we gave them titles like harijan and dalit which made them see themselves as identity less , history less downtrodden victims only. People should have freedom to choose their profession, to get educated and live with dignity and respect on equal footing with each other. However looking down on their roots is not helpful. Jati is not going anywhere and people are going to remain angry at each other if their identity is being a Dalit. Eternal victim hood. When marxist coined that term they knew what they were doing. A charmkar may take pride in his skills with leather and the pretty shoes he can make. As a Dalit he has to see his skill as nothing worthy and himself as a victim. Now the situation abroad: They are not living in their own society and not following all their traditions . They make do with what they get. I have celebrated diwali in canada. We managed some candles at home. Went to a temple- which was not how we celebrate usually and the rituals there were totally different but when living in another country that was the best we could do. There were people of the same faith and country, it was a puja and there was traditional food. That had to be enough.
Harsh is confused and has no idea what he is talking about....He has only made his assumption and goals based on his beliefs and set of people ( urban areas) around him....Santan Dharma is much much diverse and the tradition of each caste and their beliefs based on their Kul Devi or Devta changes from one location to another....There is no way how rich or economically strong we ( Sanatanis) become our caste system will and should hold its traditions and beliefs....I think the important suggestion which was given by Nupur that Jaatiwaad should end....Jaati can never removed or as said by Harsh it's inevitable it will get dilute in next two generations( not possible)......I enjoyed listening to Ashish, Sai and Ravi ji....Harsh was irritating 😆
People like Harsha will never have a solution. He was even arguing over Sain baba. Harsha is free to visit his shrine but he was a Muslim fakir. He lived in a mosque and followed Islam. it's a documented fact. To argue a muslimn fakir was not a muslim fakir and must be considered Hindu so that Harsha doesn't have to think of the irony and ongoing fraud is stupid. I call it fraud because Sain baba has been commercialized and heavily promoted as a Hindu Avatar and they are making his large statues in Hindu temples as if he is the main deity. They show the Lord shiva, Rama etc being lower than him in many images. All this while Sain baba himself didn't believe in this kind of puja. Harsha wants him to be seen as HIndu because Harsha doesn't want to think about what's going on there.
Please also invite @TheEmissaryCo to panel, i believe he has some good point that we can have debate about future if JATI and Verna and how it will impact both socially and economically.
An Indian think tank can be established with people like Subramanya Swamy. The think should seek donations from the public and build up a corpus of at least 100 cr. Solid research based on data is the need of the hour.
Sincerely hope more and more people watch this, to really understand how utterly clueless almost every "reformer" is and how suicidal there ideas are. Thanks for this, almost three hours of watching what a blithering idiot looks like. Sick and tired of the stupid threads he posts on twitter.
Varna and Jati represented the Dharma based system, or duty bound system, constitution is a rights based system. Unless we change the constitution to reflect our cultural roots to a Dharma based system, caste system as instituted by Indian political system will not diminish. Gita pe saugandh is not what we need Gita ka Shravanam, Mananam, Nidhi Dhyasanam.
You are absolutely right. The constitution is a big issue, it is largely copied from the 1935 GOI act drafted by the British and fails to address Indian values and systems.
correctly hit the point JSD ... administration must be decentralised ... justice, financial systems, education, everything ... the China model is draconian and inhuman and non-democratic ... Harsh is not veering from his end goal ... that is his bias
JSD is a national treasure that needs to be preserved at all costs! Each and every word that he speaks is well thought out and articulated.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Absolutely correct
Are you posting the same comment everywhere
He is a treasure to entire Indic society.
-From Nepal
Nupur Ji- Excellent Moderator.
Ashish Ji- Patience personified (consistently patient no matter where he is making an appearance, where do you get this calm from?)
Arihant Ji- Great questions asked (could have been the moderator)
Harsh Ji- Brilliant {if he could work on removing the egotistical attitude/tone (self proclaimed), reading his tweets would be more pleasant}
Ravi Ji- Knowledge (very sharp & deep knowledge of diversity in India, unbiased)
JSD- CHARISMA PERSONIFIED ( BULLET GUY), Each and every point he makes is a bullet & the best part is that he knows that.
It was an interesting podcast. Looking forward for more.
HIMANSHU KUMAR 🙂 Jai Shree Ram 🙏🏻
It was such a great discussion.
And perhaps the most important topic on the survival of the Hindus as caste based fault lines is the most effective tool for the Christian, Islamists and Communists to undermine and convert them. If the Hindus manage to resolve the caste issue the converted Christians and Muslims can be brought back into the fold of Hinduism. Hindus need to choose between fundamental shift from the existing and corrupted caste system and the almost certain and complete annihilation Hindus. I feel we are too addicted to the caste system and don't care about their future - so this kind of churn is certainly a ray of hope.
Harsh is filled with ego and hatred for rajputs and brahmins
@@anandrmnn really what about caste based reservation in iit iim amd upsc ?
Are hindus doing that or the state doing that ?
The indian state and caste based reservation is biggest enemy of hindus
@@Sudhentertainment what about it? caste based reservation should go along with birth based caste discrimination. All of us whine about reservation, but how many Hindus do you see asking for ending the caste itself - the root cause of discrimination and tribalism?
Normal hindus like me have a lot to catch up in terms of real culture, lineages and heritage.
Not even for a single minute I felt unplugging my ear-phones.
Most of the Hindus are normal Hindus like you and me who are cut off from their roots. But I am happy that now most of them are curious too to know who they are, thanks to social media and such debates.
I am 18 and i am interested too to know more and read about my religious scriptures and texts!
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Same here
Only if such discussions could be carried out on TV debates- no shouting over each other, cross cutting, disciplined to time limit
Leaving everything things to the judiciary is the dumbest thing ever.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Good Job Asish Dhar Ji.Harsh is graduate in NCERT /Romila Thapar Irfan Habib School of Thought.
We need more such discussions, a kind of intellectual backing to our traditions. By this way we will be able to sort out problems within ourselves and will be proud of us as well.
Appreciate this effort of Opindia, please keep up with this. Hindu dharma is so complex that we need such debates and discussions as it takes something to understand this complexity.
We are not like Abhrahimic religions where one book, however outdated, dictates everything.
Thanks Rahul Roushan Sir, Nupur Ma'am and people in the panel.
P.S - JSD is CLARITY personified, big fan Sir.
Ashish dhar ji u r phenomenal.u r making fresh points ,and u r deeply rooted ,u believe in our customs .
In Varna system the Brahminism privilege Is to be born in Sattva, live a life of Austerity, pray and educate and strive to achieve moksha. If anyone else has the same renunciatory desire and they practices it like true Sannyasis who have given up all desires are the only true Brahmins left..everyone else is not.
and beg for food.
@@nay.m bhiksha is not equal to begging
This debate started with a twitter beef between Agniveer and Ashish Dhar. Sanjeev Newar of Agniveer should have been invited. Arya Samaj and Agniveer is pro Hindu but anti birth based caste system they are not Ambedkarites. I agreed most with Arihant Pawariya. It must be known that most atrocities against Dalits are from OBC mostly and Thakurs to a lesser extent, not from Brahmins. The Brahmin scapegoating has not gotten the country anywhere. I would like to see a debate between Ashsish Dhar and Sanjeev Newar.
I have just asked Nupur ji on Twitter to conduct a debate on geniuses of caste and contemporary discrimination between Ashish and sanjeev ji.
Abhinav Arya what was her response ?
@@hindienglish8347
Nothing. Please you also tag her.
@@masqueradingstunt
Correct
Sanjeev newar is a brahmin hating jihadi
If I see j sai, I watch it 😍😊
MAN OF THE MATCH - J SAI DEEPAK
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
I am glad to see all of you at one place, please continue this wonderful initiative even further. Thanks to all of you!!👍👍
Every one should be given same time, harsh took most of the time, didnt allow anyone else to put out their opinion, by talking in middle. I think the whole point of a debate is to make meaningful points not putting one point of view.
Harsh was filled with ego
They should upload this video again but by cutting out his audio
No, Ravi and Arihant points were general
Actually the debate was between harsh and ashish
Most of the panel have agreement but harsh have some major disagreement and he will be the one who will be most questioned
@JSD, as I hear you after their initial 3 minutes... boss, you've gained so much respect from me I can't quantify. 🙏🏻
Only thing I am thinking - "a debate on dharma-based vyavstha without having anyone knowing Dharma as such! But then, it's ok. Probably let the things get filtered out during initial stages as we reach to a stage to bring in someone of that understanding. :)
We need puri sankracharya
We need people who know dharma
So when Ravi was answering wild curiosity of #Harsh..he was checking mails..✌🏻✌🏻
Harsh just being modern Indian 😂😂😂
This discussion might give some sense of hinduism to Muslim youths. They should learn how common hindu youths are discussing a topic and not the religious head is dictating the ways of jannat and hoors.
And what will they ''learn" from it? What is your point?
@@arpank6668 I don't think so. But that's only a suggestion from baba.
@@arpank6668 to come out of clutches of their religious heads and discuss issues & reforms in public and not just blindly follow mad-rasa, one book . That might help country progress and people live in harmony. They might get terrori$t tag off by curbing and de-radiclising from within.
After all once they (Indian Muslims) we're integral part of this same culture.
"Openness" "Reform" Etc.
@@anonnymm Lol! Right. Lack of debates & discussions is the reason they become extremists. Maybe they'll reform ''from within" after watching an OpIndia debate. And then finally we'll learn to get along & everyone will live in harmony for ever & ever.
.
.
.
I've 2 questions:
How old are you & Have you not followed what has happened for the last 1400 years?
@@arpank6668 " Lol! " Seriously?
What's the point of asking my age ?
What do you think, how my comment came out if I have not known Islam and it's 1400yrs of history?
Why don't be clear of ur position rather shooting question to me while u urself unable to understand my first comment?
Does that ring the bell?
JSD's background rack of book gives me dizziness always seeing that it is placed at a tilting angle. JSD, usko sidha kar lo pls.
Man you stole the words off my mouth!
नया Stack लेना पड़ेगा 😭 ढांचा ही टेढ़ा है 😭
@@spica-perspicacious-observer apparently, his book shelf's design itself is tilted. Really, my brain starts paining watching JSD's videos with this background.
@@ak.amar12 question, is it tilting to left or right?
@@nitinbhasin8898 right side 🤣🤣🤣
Good start. Its a very touchy and emotional topic but really vital that Hindu's as a community have a proper understanding of how jatis/castes originated and how it évolved into the horrible system that existed by the 20th century and the way forward to a more equitable Hindu society while still sticking to Dharma..
Great stuff! All of them are brilliant! Despite differences, what a way to engage in enlightening dialectic. I am so encouraged that Hindu samAj has very bright young minds who are passionately engaged in reviving, reforming, rebuilding this great sanatana civilization. Can you imagine this kind of a debate in a system whose foundations are built on exclusivity & dogma? I can visualize that ancient Bharat where young scholars from different schools of thought/darshanas & sampradayas coming together in fierce dialectic to discuss epistemological, ontological matters. That intellectual tradition continues... That's why this civilization is an eternal one. Jai Sri Ram!
Hinduism is not even correct as ism is attach to only one way of thinking. It should be sanatan dharm.
Yes , it s not religion but dharma , where everysection has to perform his own dharma like shudras dharma was to serve uppercast , irrespective of his ability or interest enslavement of whole life
your username is literally says "hindu dharma" .
@@prataproy3925 according to you the employee and the CEO should be equal.
They should be equally respected. But by definition they are not equal. That's exactly what varnasrama means.
Employee can become CEO based on his merit. Shudra can become Brahman if he is well versed in knowledge. If you don't know something, refrain from commenting
@@adarshgandhi4277 well , tell me any shudra in last 1000 years who became king , or any organisation in 21st century who practice untouchability with their employees , I never saw a company there is a permanent rule that managers son will be manager or a sweepers son will be sweepers irrespective of his ability .
@@adarshgandhi4277 I never said they should be equal , but improve it knowledge about castism than talk .
I found Harsh to be the least knowledgeable on the subject. Harsh hijacked the most of talk but his lack of depth in knowledge was letdown.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Couldn't agree more. I've heard him speka at various places now, including other podcasts and he's clearly someone who can speak a lot of words that sound semi intelligent but if you scratch the surface you'll notice they have no weight.
He hogs space, knows the least and so fucking arrogant.
He is a very good candidate to become a politician.
JSD is a gem to Hindu society. This concept of video by OpIndia is very good. Please bring more such discussions by different Hindu activists. You may also give chance to trad, political, neo-reactionary section of Hindus. They also need voice.
Trads need to be given a voice
Great experience to witness this session in best tradition of Tarkik process.
I feel more and more that Sanatan shall strive and also thrive going forward🙏
I specifically came sai deepak...
Such a genius person u are sir..🙏🙏
I will explain what 'Ashish Dhar' mentined as naturally evolved endogamy as a matter of choice.
Our traditions, from Rigveda itself propose Inter Varna and Inter Jaati marriage (Ashish Dhar mentioned the same - 9 types of inter Varna marriage recognised).
Now, the Corruption in the system is that though the proposed structure requires that it's preferable, corruption demands it as compulsory. There is logic behind why Inter Varna and Inter Jaati is preferred.
At the onset I wish to disclose this to avoid conflict, I have no issues with inter Varna or inter Jaati marriage, I neither promote it nor discourage it, it is a matter of individual choice for it's a matter of the individual's life, husband-wife is considered as one entity for a reason.
Many people argue that such systems may have been valid for earlier times but are not valid today, so let us verify the veracity of this claim and to verify it in today we will use modern example. If one opens up the matrimony ads, people describe their preferences, in the modern times, nowadays many people put up as caste no bar, but have other choices as vegetarian, non smoking, should go or not go to temple, even things like 'shakta' or 'vaishnav', in addition they may also put up their field of work and ask for a person of same field.
Let us analyse the above on logical grounds. If I am a vegetarian, I would prefer (for some it is of utmost importance) my life partner to be vegetarian as well, if I don't drink I would prefer that she doesn't drink either. These are the matters of lifestyle, both personal and social. In earlier times this is indentified under jaati system - for Jaati deals with identity, the beliefs, traditions, geographical location, family lineage, language or boli, customs, food habits, deities, etc. are the basis of determination of Jaati - it's the cumulation of 'kula' which is the cumulation of 'family' which is the cumulation of 'individual' and identity which extends beyond personal to encompass larger entities, the true epitome of unity in diversity, India recognised and allowed multiple layers of identities other than Jaati (Gotra - Pravan - Sutra - Shakha) which dealt with lifestyle as per people's identity development).
I have personally experienced this, my brother's marriage took place with a family whose beliefs and practices in the institution of marriage and it's traditions were different and this created a lot of chaos and friction, and although the whole affair is done the friction has not entirely abated.
Now, to the matter of Job or Vocation. In the west today, there is a big market for psychological issues relating to gap in communication between spouses due to different fields of Jobs or Vocations, this has grown into a substantial problem as is evident by the portrayal of this in the media as well. (This in earlier times was identified as Varna, - due to job or vocation and not birth - this is important as it shows that women were not limited to households but were considered equal participants in the work force). If we further analyse this, the 'gunas' valued by a Brahmin are different than those required by a 'Vaishya', for example the Brahmin's selfless service may act in conflict of profit orientation requisite of a 'Vaishya'. In modern terms, A journalists interests may conflict with a politicians interest, and husband-wife are a single entity and conflict in a single entity is a hinderance to progress.
Despite all the above, it is still realised that love trumps all, it is still realised that people learn to work around or work things out, but it must also be realised that different people have different scale of being able to adjust, some very easily intermix and adopt whereas others have a very hard time changing their habits and to expect them to do so would be injustice to individuality.
However, I do also realise that this filed isn't entirely 'free choice' due to customs, pressure from parents society has not left it neutral but this injustice should not be answered with imposition of similar injustice such that one who refuses to marry without Varna or Caste is being a Hypocrite.
(This point is entirely Hypothetical, I believe that multitude of Jaati and Varna marriage without will not only create friction at a social level but at personal level too. The hotch potch of multiple believe systems will lead to a waning of indentity, extinguishing many traditions which are kept alive through practice within the same jaati i.e the identity basis and thereby a lack of diversity. Many of these traditions and customs are based on scientific principles and have value in addition to passing on knowledge systems, where the scientific understanding of such knowledge is lost, these practices keep alive the knowledge through these customs or Traditions (the devolution of joint family into nuclear family is also responsible for this), so even though the science behind it may be lost, the impact of such practices can be observed and hence knowledge is preserved. This may seem an exaggerated assumption and that is why I presented it from a personal standpoint.)
And therefore, I am neutral on the matter of inter Varna and inter Jati marriage for it is a matter of personal choice dependant on individual's personality and needs.
You are very right and have articulated well the points missed by the panelists. Especially your description of Jaati is much more logical than addressed by the panel but I am not sure I agree with your observations entirely on the issue of tradition and knowledgea. Kudos!!
Great.
@@KRSingh-eh6jp Rightly said, good articulation. I too found his explanation of caste more satisfactory.
I wish there was a discussion by the panel on 'proselytising in hinduism', but I have a feeling that none amongst them are knowledgeable on this topic, entirely new concept.
@@saritasingh429 Yes, it would be an interesting discussion but I agree with you that no one would be sufficiently knowledgeable. In addition, another question should be comparative study of proselytising in Buddhism and impact on Indian Civilisation in terms of weakening political resistance.
Great discussion... Please do this regularly
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Prof RV's book on Social Caste is valid ... please also have him brought into these kinds of debates
A great discussion. Lots of unknow information, idea, thoughts, logics, perspectives presented, which is very beneficial for me. My view on this debate -
1. Birth based castism is not existed. Anyone can choose any desired job legally. When we come to the small portion of caste based discrimination and harrasment which is left and only existed in some of the rural places. This small portion of injustice which is left is only due to the local corrupt political leaders and judicial machinery. Which is no longer in the hand of other non culprit upper caste peoples or religious gurus. More vigilante, transparent and active adminstrative can change this scenario.
2. Voting for temple trustees by locals or by the sampraday devotees is non sense which only create religious politics.
3. Any kind of reservation itself creates inequality. Providing a special privilege or benefit to a specific community because of discrimination to some people of that community at some places is not giving them justice. Penalization of the oppressors is the only and true justice for the oppressed. Just a small example- there is family where a couple have 10 sons and 7 sisters. All gets 10 rupee pocket money each daily. 3 of the boys usually oppress these sisters on the basis of gender. One day these sister went to parents for justice.
Then what the parents should do.....
1. Penalized these 3 sons by physical and monetary mean
2. Or Pass a new rules that now all daughters will get 50 paisa extra and and all sons will get 50 paisa less in their daily pocket money.
Varn vyastha is birth based system only.....jati is birth based too....I'm a brahmin by varna and kanyakubj brahmin by jati....don't spread fake information about our religion....don't fake in trap of anti casteist people.
@Abbajan of Paxtan, Corona E Azam Babur cope
JSD, spectacular clarity of thought 🙏! More 💪💪 to you
Nupur, I have seen it full. Kindly do more discussions on jatis with a clear distinction regarding timelines of 3 eras which sai has discussed in the end.
This subject is something a little understanding and hindu awakening is there even to the learned hindus.
It needs to be debated. Please make different type of topics for discussion in the future or garner some senior experts to throw some light on it. But it should not die down. In this age of internet, it should quickly educate masses.
ruclips.net/video/BzC6sbGSLnY/видео.html
Watch this you would love it.. Ashish Dhar reveals everything with utmost clarity.
@Harsh Madhusudan as a Hindu you have all the freedom to Ignore negative discrimination as we Hindus ignore and so birth based Jathi no longer applies and can also be ignored.
support from bengal
Jai Sree Ram 🚩 🚩 🚩
Hindu Hindu Bhai Bhai 🚩 🚩 🚩
Leaving it just to listen more to ashish dhar ji
I think there still exists confusion regarding the terms 'Caste', 'Varna' and 'Jaati' is the impression when reading the comments, their unclear usage makes uncertain the meaning conveyed. Though Ravi ji appealed that a clear distinction be made regarding their usage, it wasn't done and an overlapping usage of the word 'caste' was done multiple times, which showed that the panelists themselves weren't clear and similarly was the effect in the comments.
There must be a clarity when discussing matters of Indian 'Caste system', the forced gift of English also creates communication barriers and hence clear distinction must be established between the terminologies 'Varna', 'Jaati' and 'Caste' (a gift from Lord Risley who was actually a race scientist).
Let me try and attempt to draw a clear distinction:
1. Jaati: Jaati deals with identity, the beliefs, traditions, geographical location, family lineage, language or boli, customs, food habits, deities, Trade or Vocation (an overlapping of Varna and Jaati), etc. are the basis of determination of Jaati - it's the extension of identity of 'kula' which is the extension of identity of 'family' which is the extension of identity of an 'individual', an identity which extends beyond personal to encompass larger entities, India celebrates and allows multitudes of Identities, other than Jaati itself there are also sub layers of identities such as 'Gotra - Pravan - Sutra - Shakha' and they provide indentites based on lineage or to the field of discipline in terms of philosphy. Every dimension of human life has an identity system of both personal as well as collective nature (Shaiva or Shakta or Vaishnav are both a personal as well as collective identity simultaneously), a true epitome of unity in diversity.
2. Varna: This is a genius construct of our Social Engineers. Every one knows about Adam Smith, who is credited to have proposed 'distribution of labor' in a concrete fashion. Who doesn't know of Karl Marx, his theory on 'distribution of Power and resources'. The west has filled our minds with their grand innovations and day in and day out we are taught of their grandness (granted Marx cannot exactly be claimed as Western but certainly forms part of the same academia). Whereas we are taught, how discriminatory and inferior Indian developments were, Varna system was nothing more than a ploy by the Brahmins to oppress all others, a straightforward lie ofcourse, nonetheless this is taught in our educational institutions, pick up the 6th standard NCERT book of History and verify this.
The Varna system was actually the first known innovation, a genius social engineering plan for 'Distribution of Labor, Power and resources'. Distribution of Labor is obvious, but we must also understand distribution of power and resources, A Brahmin was not allowed to have material wealth and was bound to survive on the alms given by the people, an example which shows this is that Jizya tax imposed by Feroz Shah Tuglaq was initially imposed only on Brahmins, but since the Varna system does not allow Brahmins to hold wealth or power, the tax was paid on their behalf by the Vaishyas and the Shudras. The Kshatriyas did not have the authority to control the matters of economy, which was decided upon by a committee of 'Vaishya', a true free market. The shudra were the Majority populace, certainly more than 2/3rd of the population and unlike the deliberately pushed misconception of Shudra only being conceived as doing the menial and dirty Jobs of cleaning sewers, burning bodies, all the Jobs being done by people other than the above three were Shudras. A goldsmith, a farmer, a locksmith, a cobbler, a blacksmith, a transporter, a painter, a sculptor, an architect are all Shudra and were amongst the prosperous sections of the society. Unlike the false claims, the Varna system was flexible and it was not Birth based but a system of classification based on Vocation, Trade or Job. For ex. I was born in a Shudra (farmer) family, but am now a lawyer (Brahmin) but wish to become farmer (Shudra), and the identity will change as per my current Vocation or Trade.
Now the matter of Corruption within the system is ofcourse a different matter. The primary reason for the corruption was 1000+ years of Invasions, loots, killings, rapes, destruction, mayhem, cultural genocide, economic hampering and what not, in addition the failure of our social engineers to address the deteriorating system, especially nepotism.
Now Jaati is a naturally evolved system over many millenia unlike the Varna system which was a socially engineered one. This is verified by the fact that when 'Riszley' asked the Indians, to which Varna they belonged to, they didn't know but knew their Jaati.
3. Caste: Caste was introduced by Lord Risley into India which actually had western origin and as usual was an attempt, a successful one, to superimpose their cultural disturbance upon us.
Caste can only be defined in terms of 'Varna' and 'Jaati' where India is concerned and therefore following are the distortions which cumulate to become Caste:
1. Loss of fluidity of Varna system and nepotism taking roots.
2. The Jaati being saddled with one Varna or the other.
3. Advent of hierarchy into both Varna and Jaati system and rooting themselves as tenets.
4. Discrimination and oppression based on such hierarchy.
So the usage of the terminology casteism must fulfill the above criterion and hence is limited to the discrimination due to the corruption of both the Jaati and Varna system and hence it's usage largely limited to specific issues and in the modern scenerio and therefore other forms of addressing must be opted for discussion on let us say Jaati system hierarchy, for which we can use the terminology 'Corrupted Jaati' and so on. This will ensure the identity of our own systems, will avoid complications, help in better upholding the discussion as there won't be misrepresentations and very importantly a constant reminder of the corruption in the system and that the system itself is not fallacious as is constantly blamed. Further we will not have to rely on a foreigner terminology which was imported and thrust upon india and has nothing to do with the Indian developments.
Wow! Very nicely put, your observation about Varna as Labour, power and resource distribution, just genius. Why didn't we see that before. You should be on the panel.
Yes, great information and I agree with @ K R, u should be on the panel. Do you have any social media account? I would certainly subscribe.
@@saritasingh429 Yeah, I too would join the account.
Also I have a question, what about the human tendency to recognise lineage based identity, especially in terms of it's effects on the Varna system?
@@KRSingh-eh6jp Yes I am too interested in answer to this question.
I support your channel and thoughts Bharat mata ki jai jai jai hindutva vande matram
Tamil Nadu prides itself on doing away with caste yet this state has the one of the largest number of caste based groups...and they hit the SC and ST together
There us 70 % caste based reservation in tamil nadu
Wrong, it's being saved by Atheism.
Ravi sir, J Sai Deepak sir and Ashish sir, pranams for defending manuvadi jaati system 🙏🏼
Caste system is by product of over all development of humanity. Count from prehistoric era. Very good description by Pt. Rahul Sankrityayan in his book Volga se Ganga. Caste system has collapsed now. It is politicians keeping it alive. Remember divide and rule by British.
Kudos to everyone. Such a pleasure to hear a balanced moderate intellectual discussion these day. No hysterics, no screaming, no name calling - what a refreshing change. Nupur, we need more such debates.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Great start! Suggestion to OpIndia.com - instead of interrupting speaker for remaining minutes, please have three cards to inform speakers on how many minutes are left for him/her like green for 1 minute left, yellow for 30 seconds and red for utilitizing all allowed minutes. You can use your own color cards. This way no one will get interrupted.
Around 2hr15m mark - Harsh basically repeats his allegation of 'casteist' and ashish is supposed to respond. JSD comes in, harsh comes in, Nupur comes in, Arihant comes in and JSD comes in and suddenly we are talking about khap and ashish does not respond to that point adequately. ☹️☹️☹️
Harsh is very ill informed khap is a jaat panchayat very specific
ruclips.net/video/BzC6sbGSLnY/видео.html Watch this Ashish talks about casts etc here.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Because Ashish is a turd winger who believes in caste supermacy. He believes and follows Manusmruti completely.
Expecting such topics regularly.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
This discussion is amongst people who are English Educated, the formal education system. Then there is the Indian traditional Education system, since it is indigenous to india and they teach Vedas and Puranas in Sanskrit as part of curriculum, their understanding and hence inference of the concepts such as Varna and Jaati is better and more reliable.
To watch discourse on these issues by a student of Indian Traditional School, here is the link:
ruclips.net/video/ygVuL1GZWFA/видео.html
Ashish ji, the most patient among all🙏
all panelists present a wonderful balanced discussion on the the issue of caste and its implications and hope to have more such discussions frequently. truly inspired and blessed thank you so much
आप लोग सब साथ में रहो तो हम वामपंथियों के गुर्दे छील देंगे। अजीत सर आपको मिस कर रहा हूं।🙏🙏💐
Closing remarks from JSD were pure gold.
Very interesting discussion. We must have more of such panel discussions on various topics such as History rewriting, Saffron terror, Bias in media and academics, Way forward for Hindu Unity. Such open discussions are conducive to fresh idea and give impetus to thought process.
To those who want an end to Jati and who think Jati ≠ Jativad:
There are two defining features of Jati, as
observed among the 40,000+(?) of them(Jatis), regardless of religion, inhabiting the Indian subcontinent.
1. Endogamy
"There was no change in this proportion from the previous round of the IHDS (2004-05)."
www.thehindu.com/data/just-5-per-cent-of-indian-marriages-are-intercaste/article6591502.ece
"Even in 2011, the rate of inter caste marriages in India was as low as 5.82%"
"One of the predictions of the Modernization theory is that with the advent of industrialization and urbanization, various non-Western family
behaviours will converge towards the Western nuclear family model. As a result, there will be a decline in arranged marriages. Consequently there will also be a decline in the importance of attributes like group identities and statuses of the two families (Allendorf and Pandian 2016). However, such a clear upward trend is not visible from the figure: the rate of inter caste marriages has hovered around 5% since 1970 to 2012. The average for 2000-2012 is marginally higher than 1971-80 and 1981-90, but is not statistically different from the decade 1990-2008."
"The Modernization theory predicts that urbanization will be the harbinger of change towards a Western family model with reduced importance of
caste and other group characteristics. However, contrary to this prediction, we see that the urban households do not have a higher probability of having an inter caste marriage. The difference between the urban and rural households in the rate of inter caste marriages is not statistically significant."
"We observe that for the asset quartiles, the rate goes down as we move up the asset distribution."
www.isid.ac.in/~epu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/dp17-05.pdf
"Generally it is expected that with more development and education, the force of caste factor becomes weak and thereby increases the incidence of
inter-caste marriages. The southern region of India is socio-economically more developed than other regions of India. So, applying the same logic inter-caste marriage is expected to be more common in the southern region than other parts of India. But our analysis shows that inter-caste marriage is only 9.71 percent in southern part of India"
epc2010.princeton.edu/papers/100157
"We find evidence for very strong own-caste preferences: for example, our estimates suggest that the bride’s side would be willing to trade off
the difference between no education and a master’s degree in the prospective husband to avoid marrying outside their caste. For men seeking brides, the own-caste effect is twice the effect of the difference between a self-described “very beautiful” woman and a self-described “decent-looking” one. This is despite the fact that the population in our sample is urban, relatively well off, and highly educated (for example, 85 percent have a college degree). Interestingly, this preference for caste seems much more horizontal than vertical: we see little interest in “marrying up” in the caste hierarchy among both men and women, but a strong preference for incaste matches." "
" there is no reason to expect that economic growth by itself will undermine caste-based preferences in marriage. Second, caste-based preferences
in marriage are unlikely to be a major constraint on growth."
personal.lse.ac.uk/ghatak/marriage.pdf
To summarise: Endogamy rates haven't declined much with time; stayed constant, from when we have data ie, 1970-2012. Approx 94-95% in 2011. No major Urban-Rural divide. Neither Modernisation nor Urbanisation reduces rates of endogamy. Economic growth and consequent increments in income and wealth have no effect on them.
&
2. Proclivity towards/Overrepresentation in, a specific field or set of (related)professions.
"Occupational identity does have a major effect upon career choice-in India certain occupations are composed primarily of individuals born into
that occupation, and the average person is more than 3 times as likely to enter their traditional occupation than any other. Thus traditional caste-based occupational identities continue to affect the selection of occupations well into the modern era."
www.dropbox.com/s/iu7as93s3q1dazr/CKK_OccupationCasteIdentity_v6.pdf?dl=0
To be clear, this^ is not referring to enforcement of either of these two things. Neither practise is inherently immoral. Neither necessarily lead
to Jativad. The vast majority of Indian-Subcontinentals(Indians, Pakistanis) marry within their Jatis & maintain close ties with these Jati networks. But this doesn't necessarily manifest itself in hostility towards 'the other'. So clearly, to say 'Jati = Jativad' is akin to saying affirmation or expression of any identity *necessarily* leads to Identitarianism. No such conveyor belt exists. If you believe identifying with a Jati in such(abovementioned) ways amounts to barbarism, it is fair to conclude you think India is a generally barbaric place. Understand & acknowledge what you're really saying is that bigotry is the norm, not the exception. Conservatives believe, harmony, is the norm; bigotry, the exception(when we control for population).
P.S. Reservations are the only legal form of Jativad.
Dude... Kudos for this well written comment 👏👏👏
If possible I would like to pick your brain. How did you accumulated this information.
For a person who is interested to learn more about this subject, where should he start from ?
Thanks in advance
True even in USA people from other nationality usually marry within their nationally or ethnicity
@Zed Shaman Actually you have misunderstood the point made.
Corruption in a structure does not indicate the actual structure.
Jaati is actually identity based, as the comment claims, however it's settling into 'Varnas' which themselves were corrupted by becoming rigid and a hierarchy being ascribed to it, of which discrimination is a conduce, is the Corruption of it.
I would ascribe two reasons for it:
1. 1000+ years of Invasions, destruction, oppression, discrimination, mayhem, human genocide, cultural genocide etc first by the Islamic Invaders and then by the British, and not mere political infiltration but cultural infiltration of other belief systems as well through diffusion due to improvement of navigation, this is the prime reason for it.
2. Failure of our Social Engineers to address nepotism.
You must read Swami Vivekananda's work to understand the needs of the Human society. The need to identify is a core aspect of human need and hence identity systems will always exist, wether such system is hierarchical and discriminatory is a matter of social engineering and can be addressed. If you have corruption in your body you will treat that corruption and not kill yourself. Similarly, the Indian Jaati system (not caste, caste is of western origin and a gift to India from Lord Risley which superimposes their disruptions upon the Indian Civilization, which adds to the problem and not solve it) has evolved and has been established naturally over the years as a system of identity and no good will come of attempts trying to scrape it off, nor do I beleive such attempts will be successful, what the need of the hour is to end the corruption attached to it.
@R K To you as well read my above comment.
Your assumption is wrong, once I identify with one Jaati and feel pride of that identity, does not mean 'not' giving respect to other Jaatis (if you hinge on the use of word equal, then it raises further questions as to what are the implications of equal - as in parity with one's own identified Jaati - implications in social behaviour, what features would you ascribe to it such that it fulfils that criteria?).
Same as Hinduism and Abrahamic. To quote Shree Guru 'Rajiv ji', mutual recognition is sought, it does not imply equal belief of the other systems or 'sampraday'. Mutual recognition is sufficient and equal recognition is neither required nor feasible of human nature.
@R K This is actually a very good question and an objective discussion of it would be too long, so I will opt for subjective study of it, i.e limited to India.
First, there is nothing wrong with recognition of one's own Jaati over another.
Understand this, Jaati is a system of identity which encompasses bigger entity, for Jaati is cumulation of 'kula' which is cumulation of 'family' which is cumulation of self. So we see an evolving sense of identity, where cumulation of 'Jaati' is society. In the video somebody, maybe Ravi mentioned the book 'caste as social capital', you see Jaati acts as a Social security, people of your family, your kula, your Jaati look after you as there exists a common and reciprocal recognition. Even in the system of reservation it is considered that once a certain Jaati moves up it will help it's fellow Jaati people, however here too the same problem was observed as you mentioned, those who climbed up using reservation actually established a class divide based on economics within the Jaati itself and started exploiting their fellow Jaati people.
(I would also suggest that you read another of my comment for there are a couple of concepts which I would like you to read for a lucid discussion, it is posted as a direct comment to this video, "An explanation on Ashish Dhar's observation.")
The political aspirations and it's logistics for securing it will always exist, today it is Jaati based vote bank, with a new structure, new form of political manipulation will take birth, so I believe using politics as an example is not suitable, nonetheless your observation of Jaati identity being utilised as a hook to ensnare vote bank is right. One may argue that the present exploitation can be addressed through abolition of Jaati (caste in constitutional terminology) system altogether, however I have earlier argued that system of Identity cannot be done away with, if you wish to remove this particular system you have to provide an alternative which is equally valid for people, personally as well as collectively. I will explain this with an example, the post modern theories demand a complete lack of identity national, regional, local, language based etc. in favour of only human identity, sounds fantastic, however let us analyse scenerio where such was pushed in. In developed nation cities, such was opted where young people started shunning all identities, claiming no affiliation with any religion, sect, locality, nation etc., the impact that was observed due to this was that they started forming very fickle and inconsequential identities such as movie clubs, writer clubs, Game of thrones fan club conducting periodical get together to discuss and celebrate those identities, just like going to the church. So what we observe is identities based on fickle subject and untruth or fiction is a waste of resources and lack of identity is not possible, or is it? The westerners as usual got it wrong. Only indian Civilization and it's system is able to provide the answer, since the identities are all based in material relaities it is impossible to establish lack of identity in a material world, where it does exist is in the spiritual world. The path of a sadhu is the only way to shun all identities. Multiple examples like these and readings of great men like Guru deva Swami ji and Shree Aurobindo has convinced me that it is not the jaati system which is the problem rather the Corruption which has ensued in it.
The folds of Abrahamic religions is largely due to lack of a proper Hindu identity amongst the Hindu populace (addressing this lack of identity is a very big issue - it starts with the advent of freedom of India and at that intance not recognising the actual themes which represent Indian heritage. The flag, the constitution, the legal system, the symbolic representations of India belie actual Hindu identity).
If we were to revitalize Hindu identity, not as religion based but Civilization based, the Abrahamic religions issue would be solved.
Now as to the question of self serving interests outside of politics, I believe it can only be addressed through economic sufficiency and growth, but above all spiritual development.
I would recommend that going forward in such discussions it would be better to use an audio indication like beep to inform the speaker that you have only 1 minute left.
In this video, you have identified that the once free system of choice of profession later turned into a rigid system, about 2000 yrs ago. People began to form rigid "families" within the professions one used to work in and in turn, their children follow the same. This is something I have heard from many other videos. What was the reason for this?
I would prefer an answer independent of my hypotheses to follow but I post my hypothesis to let you know what I think based on my knowledge so far :
Possible hypotheses :
1) Influx of people from outside India (Yeah, the much adored AIT or AMT, maybe sometime soon ATT). There's a paper talking about something called a steppe migration to India, which appears to happen around this time.
2) It was a gradual realization that tricks of trade are best nurtured and evolved if passed down from generation to generation. So children could learn from the experience of their elders and can carry on the profession without committing the same mistakes of the elders
A corollary question : Did the vedas precede this formation of rigidity or were they post this rigidity? What new features were added to the culture post this rigidity? If there's not much of a difference, we can safely conclude that the culture is not alien or imported
I was able to extract a lot of knowledge from this perfectly moderated debate. All the panellists conducted them in decent manner. Thanks Nupur ji and Sai sir.
P.S. Harsh made least sense
Harsh while hogging the discussion, is making the least sense in my view!
Listening to this in 2023 september
I agree with Harsh! 🙏😇
All panalist are brilliant, need more such interaction
Very civilized and nuanced discussion...keep up this tradition..👍
Hey guys I think you should contact "Udaylal pai ji" bring him on your discussion for such topics & sanatan dharma
Actually every sphere needs decentralisation - urbanisation cannot change everything ,not everything going to be urban and standardised and regularised - villages as such needs to be economic powerhouses of their own - for that u need right conducive environment , people and their institutions , their guild systems , theit way of justice systems , and region and geographical resources - and that's how Hinduism evolved identifying this and aligning with nature .... Thats how we were ahead in economic progress for 2 millenia - 2000 years continuous - much much much more stable graph of study, to compare and write this off with any comparative study or ol
Opinionated mind of his own with a life cycle of a mere 70-90 years ..... Get it right 90 years VS 2000 years....
Ashish takes the position of conserving something, without actually stating clearly what exactly it is that he wants to conserve.
By doing that, he leaves the door open for anything at all to come into play. I think he actually is somewhat clear on what he wants, or more specifically what he doesn't want, but doesn't want to state it explicitly, because it will not benefit his position in the present scenario.
He refuses to pass any negative value judgments on any historical Hindu practices, but is perfectly willing to do the opposite.
Which is very dishonest, if you cannot judge by the standards of today, the matters of past, you should not than judge certain aspects of them, by the standards of today, selectively, when it is beneficial to your cause.
Ultimately for the sake of practicality, you do have to pass value judgements(if you have any values) on some matters, because they affect the lives of people today. Ashish refuses to do this as well.
Sorry opindia,
Ye video almost 3 hr. Ka hai aur ye English me hai isliye mai sun rahaa hoon....
But I'll like this video..
It was a great discussion but I felt that Harsh took a lot of time and other panelists (Arihant, Ravi, and Ashish) were mostly in a listening mode. Please ensure that people get an equal opportunity to express their views. In the general discussion phase, many people raised their hands but did not get a chance to express their views on the ongoing topic at that time.
Opindia team please do an hour interactive session till 5 August on Ram Temple. Jai Shri Ram 🙏🏽🙏🏽. As Nupur Ji said 🙏🏽🙏🏽 it will unite us
- 2 moderators are a bad recipe.
- why is harsh talking the most of all?
- why was ashish ignored so much?
- why discuss Brahmin & Shudra only, nothing for Kshatriya/Vaishya?
- जाति का विरोध मूर्खतापूर्ण है।
जातिगत 'भेदभाव' का विरोध होना चाहिए।
आरक्षण का विरोध मूर्खतापूर्ण है।
आरक्षण तब तक हो जब तक 'कोई भी' पिछड़ा है।
जातियों से ही समाज बनता है। इसको समझना पड़ेगा आपको। नहीं समझ पाएंगे तो इसका मतलब आपको सतही ज्ञान है केवल। आज भी 4 लोग एक साथ कोई काम करें तो उनमें प्रगाढ़ता आ जाती है, यहीं से जाति शुरू होती है।
- why sai baba followers use mainstream Hindu props (sai 'arti', sai 'gita', sai 'ram' etc) for a 'muslim peer' who's motto was 'allah malik'?
That is considered corruption in Hindu ways by hindu dharma gurus. Why don't Sai baba followers create their own things & consider him a baba only, since he has nothing to do with Hindu dharma shastras.
Like for panel only...
Video will be definitely gonna be so informative
Thanks
Missing Ajit Bharti
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
Extremely informative n intriguing discourse.... Loving these live discussions.... Keep it coming.... 🙏👍👍👏👏
To whom it may concern,
The two factors, the descendance or bloodline and their duty towards the society to sustain it and keep it functional, constitute the inconspicuous attributes of anthropological construct of Caste or jati.
So let's have a brief and comprehensive look at the factor 1-
we all know invariably that we refer and acknowledge ourselves to be the MANUJ or MANUSHYA. Now it becomes pertinent to ask 'Why?'.
Manu the KSHATRIYA himself was an emperor (though what he really was i.e. CHAKRAVARTI Samrat) at his epitome renounced his rule and become a sadhu in search of aatma and parmatma ( one and only Santana Satya as Shri Krishn explained to Arjun in Geeta).
So progenitors of Manu were later to be known as MANUJ or MANUSHYA, decided that they would build and enter in relationships with people sharing common traits and characteristics like warriors, researchers and intellectuals, bussinessmen and traders and talents such as designing, metellurgy, manufacturing and service skills in streams like agriculture, dairy farming, horticulture, etc. Thus there began a trend to conduct one the individual and affairs of society on these lines, not to favour or discriminate one against the other but to provide and add stability and certanity to the society.
Thus despite the fact that these forms appear or claim separate descendance, higher or lower, for themselves after metamorphism of many millennia but they are still one and share the great bloodline of Adipurush MANU the kshatriya the emperor. Hence each and everyone is Kshatriya.
Therefore the second factor is in fact a corollary to the development and crystallization of the well thought-out and agreed and understood norm which people in olden days themselves decided and drafted, pros and cons thereof has now been manifesting itself across all the current strata of our society.
So remember we share the blood of that great king cum sage and against all odds and notwithstanding various individual differences viz biological, social and economical we thrived, struggled and survived because we are one and our common identity is the SANATAN DHARM.
ok after two hours.. 😌 not just listening but thinking this practically.
harsh is the only one TRYING to bring solution (which is not applicable) and others were just finding problems in his proposal but no one said any corrections to his proposal which makes debate progressive.
btw there are so many corrections could have been said which even i have also considered but anyway..
only thing to learn is that just denying the every solutions of very complex problem like this will not help to go ahead. try to think and add something to solutions to make it viable.
Towards “fairness” leads to people’s ruling which is democracy..
always ask , am i fair or is this policy or procedure fair ?
That leads to a great place
I have one question for everyone on the panel- what is the plan for getting converted Hindus back to the dharmic fold. Is caste a barrier to that. How do we make ghar Wapsi easy for them.
Caste is not a barrier. First off caste word itself is confusing. It doesn't differentiate between Varna and Jati. Varna was based on profession. ( birth or not) But jati refers to a clan, tribe or a particular ethnic identity. Sometimes all three. That's why people do not let go of their Jati even after conversion or try to find a connection with some tribe from outside however remote. And that's why some new caste or jati keep being added to old Hindu dharma.
So if they are converted back, they can simply start their own family name like they did when they converted out of Hinduism. Their profession is their varna.
@@thehawkseye3412 :-
Varna was based on profession. ....."
Sorry to Say My Friend . It's Not Correct.
"Varna" (वर्ण ) Means To Chose. A Human Life Was Cosidrred to Be 100 Years.
Hindu Sholars Divided in 4 Parts (वर्णाश्रम) . 1:- Bramhachary 2- Gruhasth 3- Sanyas & 4:- Vanprasth . A Hindu Was/is Free to Chose Any of These वर्णाश्रम
@@srnp0007 That's why when varna were first mentioned, one could choose their profession. Varna as in brahman (priests, teachers, intellectuals) khsatriya (warriors) Viash( Traders) Shudra( labour) is based profession. .
Varnashram however refers to four stages of life and recommended way of living for individual.
@@thehawkseye3412 when they convert back to Hinduism, their community from same Jati refuses to establish social bonds with them. That i think is the problem and barrier to ghar wapsi.
That will be pancham varna
🙏 JAY SHREE RAM 🙏
Harsh was the most uninformed person.
The Puri Shankracharya didn't said the way he is interpreting. He said you will keep on having Intercaste marriages, Interfaith, Intercontinental and when everything would be done you will start marrying other species too. People are already raping various animals which is criminal today but in future it might not be an offence anymore.
yeah he is misinterpreting what the puri shankaracharya said. The problem now is that everyone wants to go by their good feeling and everyone is becoming their own dharmaguru unfortunately
@@ashutoshmishra1554 True, they want everything to be lovey dovey. But the world is not like that.
Rubbish. Consent is key in a marriage. Animals cannot give consent. This is the argument most traditionalists who cannot think logically give as to why they oppose inter-caste marriage, inter-religion marriage, homosexuality, etc. Regarding why we kill them for their meat without their consent, there are 2 reasons
a.) Humans have evolved to become omnivores, the canines we have are proof of that.
b.) In absence of not eating animals, the world will be overpopulated with them. We got to keep control. The food chain exists for a reason and is a biologically established fact. But ah, traditionalists disagree with science and don't acknowledge that evolution is in fact true. You believe God created everyone and everything and all the scriptures and you got to follow your Dharma or else sadgati nahi hogi. What Rubbish. India has had a healthy tradition of atheistic/agnostic religions as well. We weren't like Abrahamic religions which are insecure, petulant and imperialist with a desire to seek world domination. Progress and reforms are necessary and people like Ashish Dhar, who to be honest spoke brilliantly in the panel, calling it self congratulatory bakwas is in fact bakwas, though again I think most progressive woke kids do support and propagate self congratulatory bakwas.
Only morons will blindly believe whatever was written in the past. Existence of dinosaurs, their correct age being ascertained as per carbon dating all counter that. The first modern humans, evolved from their early hominid predecessors between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago but nah lemme believe in rubbish stating that the yugas were over a million year old. We had christians say earth is 6000 years old or something probably because they weren't capable of processing huge numbers, it's okay no problem. But now we've progressed. Attempting to do away with caste is not going to end up well. Every community is proud of themselves. Let them maintain that pride, but at the same time, every Hindu should first be a hindu to fight the global missionary nexus, Islamic jihad and marxist attempts to create class conflicts to destabilize society. Discard relics of the past, analyse them, get inspiration if you can, but if you can't then discard it. Being obstinate and insisting that you are right and what you believe in is right even after being proven wrong is just sign of your intellect ( or lack of ).
Anyway yadi maine kuch kaha jis se aapki maanhaani hui ho to kripya use prasad ke roop mai lauta dijiye. Jai Shree Raam. Kashi aur Mathura ko bhi wapas Haasil karna hai
@Stratus are you purposefully being an a$$ or were you just made that way? Too bad it's not madraasis who need to become more civilized but rather people like you.
Watch this link and subscribe if liked ruclips.net/video/D2bQysJ7CNU/видео.html
01:59:45 Best counter question ever.
This discussion started of well, however lost its track someway in between...became more of a job interview of Mr. Harsh by other panelists. Mr. Ravi made a very valid point which in my opinion was the crux of the discourse, being, that a society decides for itself what it needs and does not care what someone feels should be the model code of it's functioning. So Mr. Ravi hypothesis or his personal views on a particular practice are irrelevant.
Harsh was a misfit
He is a leftist
@Zed Shaman who are you to accept it ?
Muslims accept it
Love the closing by Jai Shri Ram
I completely agree with Ashish. I just have tuned him out lately for his harsh opinion of BJP.
The whole discussion was great and really informative, but the moderators allowed Harsh to speak TOO MUCH!!! By the second half it pretty much became a Vaad-Vivaad between JSD and Harsh, while the other panelists were just spectating mostly or just raising their hand.
It's true that J Sai Deepak knows enough to easily counter everything Harsh says, but it could have been like if Harsh is done putting his point across, other panelists(who haven't spoken for a long time) should be asked if they want to comment upon that or add anything to it.
Or, have JSD not as a moderator next time, but a panelist. :D
And PLEASE LET ASHISH DHAR SPEAK!! :/
Completely agree
@@RohitRaj-rd7tl you did not hear a single word of the discussion did you? The fact that Varna vyavastha was misrepresented as caste system was agreed to by all of the panelists and you just took it in from one ear and threw it out the other!
@@RohitRaj-rd7tl I do agree with some of your points, that BJP has been a little spineless and not at all much different from their opposition in their appeasement of specific communities, just different ones. I especially believe that all sorts of reservations should be abolished, proper resources should be given to those who lack them so they can compete better instead of lowering the bar for them and at last I believe that everyone should be given representation, not just the minorities. And if there HAS to be reservation, then it should be provided to those who lack resources and not based upon their identities and their surnames, because to me that just sounds like state sponsored discrimination.
@@RohitRaj-rd7tl I'd like to add that I just started my UG med college last year so I can readily believe that you must be much more experienced and knowledgeable than me. And I'm prepared to learn from you.
Want these convos more. 🙌🙏💛
i have only come to listen
J Sai Deepak
When they were discussing why brides are accepted by muslims from different communities but not by hindus , they should have given a thought to why grooms are not? “Love Jihad” only goes one way. The child born will assume islam from father so it helps the cause of abrahamic views on demographic change i think.
We all are Hindustani !!!
Love you Ashish Ji, Nupur Ji, Sai Ji, Ravi Ji, OP india for this session. Vande Matram. Jai hind
Sain baba was not Hindu. Harsha is free to visit Shiradi but it's stupid to argue that a Muslim Fakir was not a Muslim fakir. And it's kind of fraudulent to make stories about Sain being a Hindu avatar and what not. It's disrespectful to Hindu traditions and to some extent to Sain baba too who was essentially a Muslim. You are turning him in to something he never believed in. It's total baniya business going on how it's being promoted and advertised as a cult of it's own where Sain is put in center or biggest statue in the temple and put stautes of our deities around him as if they serve him and are secondary to him.
@R K Different situation. The people in dubai are a class of their own. I will explain later. The way Indians have tried to deal with castes has been detrimental only. Instead of showing respect for the job and specific skills of different shudra/working castes and removing discrimination, so called reformists took away their self respect and pride in their skills. And their jobs too. Instead of respecting their caste for their important role in society, we gave them titles like harijan and dalit which made them see themselves as identity less , history less downtrodden victims only. People should have freedom to choose their profession, to get educated and live with dignity and respect on equal footing with each other. However looking down on their roots is not helpful.
Jati is not going anywhere and people are going to remain angry at each other if their identity is being a Dalit. Eternal victim hood. When marxist coined that term they knew what they were doing. A charmkar may take pride in his skills with leather and the pretty shoes he can make. As a Dalit he has to see his skill as nothing worthy and himself as a victim.
Now the situation abroad: They are not living in their own society and not following all their traditions . They make do with what they get. I have celebrated diwali
in canada. We managed some candles at home. Went to a temple- which was not how we celebrate usually and the rituals there were totally different but when living in another country that was the best we could
do. There were people of the same faith and country, it was a puja and there was traditional food. That had to be enough.
Sai baba is not Hindu, I agree
Harsh should not be part of the debate
just by listening to arihant i know he is from haryana( we know our guys tone)
Harsh❤❤❤
Thank you so much.
Agree with Harsh completely
Harsh is confused and has no idea what he is talking about....He has only made his assumption and goals based on his beliefs and set of people ( urban areas) around him....Santan Dharma is much much diverse and the tradition of each caste and their beliefs based on their Kul Devi or Devta changes from one location to another....There is no way how rich or economically strong we ( Sanatanis) become our caste system will and should hold its traditions and beliefs....I think the important suggestion which was given by Nupur that Jaatiwaad should end....Jaati can never removed or as said by Harsh it's inevitable it will get dilute in next two generations( not possible)......I enjoyed listening to Ashish, Sai and Ravi ji....Harsh was irritating 😆
People like Harsha will never have a solution. He was even arguing over Sain baba. Harsha is free to visit his shrine but he was a Muslim fakir. He lived in a mosque and followed Islam. it's a documented fact. To argue a muslimn fakir was not a muslim fakir and must be considered Hindu so that Harsha doesn't have to think of the irony and ongoing fraud is stupid. I call it fraud because Sain baba has been commercialized and heavily promoted as a Hindu Avatar and they are making his large statues in Hindu temples as if he is the main deity. They show the Lord shiva, Rama etc being lower than him in many images.
All this while Sain baba himself didn't believe in this kind of puja. Harsha wants him to be seen as HIndu because Harsha doesn't want to think about what's going on there.
we should have many many discourses like this in public ... let is just happen and some churning will happen and the amrit will come out
Jai ho, Sai Deepak. Completely agree with your position.
Can we do this podcast again with same panel with today’s reality?
Please also invite @TheEmissaryCo to panel, i believe he has some good point that we can have debate about future if JATI and Verna and how it will impact both socially and economically.
should not have time limits... contrary to nupur in fact it was the time limit that prevented the free flow of discussion
An Indian think tank can be established with people like Subramanya Swamy. The think should seek donations from the public and build up a corpus of at least 100 cr. Solid research based on data is the need of the hour.
Sincerely hope more and more people watch this, to really understand how utterly clueless almost every "reformer" is and how suicidal there ideas are. Thanks for this, almost three hours of watching what a blithering idiot looks like. Sick and tired of the stupid threads he posts on twitter.
Great discussion
Varna and Jati represented the Dharma based system, or duty bound system, constitution is a rights based system. Unless we change the constitution to reflect our cultural roots to a Dharma based system, caste system as instituted by Indian political system will not diminish. Gita pe saugandh is not what we need Gita ka Shravanam, Mananam, Nidhi Dhyasanam.
You are absolutely right. The constitution is a big issue, it is largely copied from the 1935 GOI act drafted by the British and fails to address Indian values and systems.
Invite Rajiv Malhotra and all panelists can ask questions
Harsh is completely missing the point, He's simply shooting in the dark!
First everyone has to beg forgiveness of the oppressed in India and then give them a hug. Jai hind.
Hindus were under islamic and xtian slavery for 1000 years ?
When will british ask for forgiveness ?
correctly hit the point JSD ... administration must be decentralised ... justice, financial systems, education, everything ... the China model is draconian and inhuman and non-democratic ... Harsh is not veering from his end goal ... that is his bias