In engineering, we refer getting stuck in calculations as "paralysis by analysis". At some point you have to say pencils down, what happens will happen. Otherwise, life could not continue. The project wouldn't get finished.
Another consideration that goes along with these ideas: trusting God no matter what the outcome. Know that God is with you no matter what.. whether the result is metaphorically/symbolically heads or tails.
Having a baby is like this. You and your wife can track ovulation and focus on natural patterns but it is always God who grants fertility (and decides gender and hair color, etc)
I was a mediator by profession for many years. As a mediator, it was often my job to bring disputing parties to a place of agreement. The mechanism to agree does not actually have to be "fair" because the word fair really only means what people agree is a reasonable way to move forward. Mediation law is purposefully open to any type of resolution. Anything that will prevent a judge from having to issue a decision for the parties. I never did it in my years as a mediator, but I could see flipping a coin to be a completely legitimate "agreement" for who is at fault if all parties agree that the result of the coin toss is an acceptable resolution. I've done similar things, and the interesting thing is that it is actually very useful to think outside of the box of "right/wrong" or "responsible/not responsible". If the parties have been given the autonomy to allow the coin to make the decision, they have actually acheived what we call "procedural justice". Very often, they go with whatever the mechanism they chose decides.
@Reiman33 I'd never considered it, but i would say so. It is true that none of us asked to be created, so it would seem that our creation itself is outside of procedural justice (which is just an expression, not an actual form of justice). However, we are all given opportunities to receive "true life" by various means, and we are made well aware enough of the consequences of our actions before we make use of our wills.
Allmighty God. We pray for the ocean and the earth, and give thanks for creation of animals, birds, fish and plants. Help us to see the value in their being.
We mediate between heaven and earth by meditating on His word, and praying. We are the means to God's ends. Man roles, but God rules, the dice.(Pr 16:33,9)
Aquinas answered this question: "Speech is not always for the purpose of making something known to another; but is sometimes finally ordered to the purpose of manifesting something to the speaker himself; as when the disciples ask instruction from the master."
When I first read "Abraham Pleads for Sodom", it very much intrigued me. I found Abraham's plead quite comical in the way that it is constructed. It's as if he's gambling and keeps lowering the stakes because he knows he has a bad hand. And then, in the end, only Lot was spared. That story really sounds like LOTERIE.
Could a hunch be a decision based on lots and lots of imperceivable aspects which you noticed - only you didn't realise you noticed. It's not conscious but unconscious
In the case of choosing among equal candidates given available information and a deadline, casting lots is more demonstrative of opening up space for God than actually opening up space for God, as if God needs us to roll dice to have sovereignty over the decision. Casting lots demonstrates to all concerned individuals that there was no bias; a hunch, on the other hand, can be highly influenced by bias. Casting lots in the final decision of equal candidates is a demonstration of humility that we have finite information; though one has to be careful that they're not doing it to abdicate responsibility.
People’s perspective has been radically changed by robotics. Where they default to thinking in terms of efficient systems. So when they think about God they assume his intentions must just be to set up something that goes automatically. We pray because we are part of the story and must participate in it. We are not readers, we are characters.
Thank you again for your thorough answer to my quick question regarding the bishops drawing lots. You immediately identified the larger underlying question and assumptions, which I recognize as having lurked in the back of my mind for many years. Being recently chrismated, I am always thankful for further purging of my Protestant Puritan mindset in my journey to a richer and fuller faith in Orthodoxy. Thank you!
I find this a very interesting subject but your explanation was a bit confusion. Please make a longer video on this and maybe have your brother on as well.
Great clip. I'd substitue reason with 'free will' in a few places, giving up 'reason' is also giving up control. An acknowledgement that we've hit the limits of what we can do (reason) so we need to let go.
Any video presentations on Judas? Two different versions of death, why he didn't repent and receive forgiveness, and was he Satanically possessed? He did regret his choice, but still committed suicide (or fell and burst his guts asunder).
Ooooo this is a good question that I've often pondered because of my name and how Daniel 12:13 ends. What was Daniel's allotted inheritance? This might sound weird but my life maps onto his story eerily well.
I just read it, and it’s talking about the reincarnation of the flesh as far as I can tell. Judgment day. So you won’t know until you’re judged, was my understanding. I’m not sure it’s the kind of lot you cast for. It’s the kind that’s appointed to you based on the judgment. Daniel’s story is pretty relatable to all of us like all the great stories with lasting appeal. I think Christians being able to see ourselves in the scripture is the normal state of things. Even revelation has the ability to be experienced in times that aren’t the end times, but only prefigure them. It’s necessary for us to be able to fully participate and experience God’s entire plan, from original sin which we live with every day to the end of days which Christians are able to see in motion in their own times even if their lives were lived thousands of years before ours. I have to remind myself and those around me of this, because sometimes God has made these patterns so accessible that we forget that doesn’t mean the world is really ending today or in our lifetimes. It’s just already revealed to us by our faith and God’s revelation to his people that it can feel astonishingly imminent (even when we aren’t suffering anywhere near as much as scripture talks about at the end, thank God!). I hope that’s true for how you see yourself in Daniel’s story. I hope you’re not in captivity requiring a series of divine interventions to save you from gruesome deaths! But treasure your unique position to experience the reality of that pattern and to understand that its meaning applies to you also, and the power of the story is probably part of why the Lord ordained it to be part of the canonical scriptures. It is meant to speak to people beyond the one guy in the story. May your own life story make a statement about faith that has power and meaning to others beyond yourself as well! ❤
@@animula6908 I really appreciate you sharing all of that. It's encouraging. The way Jonathan was talking about casting of lots is that it relates to when reason and logic fall short. That's when you give it up to God's Will. So I see this when God tells Daniel to ""Go your way Daniel and at the "end of your days" you will "rest" and then wake to your allotted inheritance."" I see Daniel as a man who gave up his life to serve but probably still wanted to return to his homeland which was taken from him. So God is basically telling him that human logic would be to think after everything Daniel went through the story should end with the happy ending like Jacob and Esau or Joseph but this isn't the case with Daniel. His Jubilee comes after he dies. The lot that God casts for Daniel. My life has been a series of unfortunate events and have always felt stuck in a holding pattern. I read it as God telling me I may not get back what was taken from me in this life but not to worry because my salvation will come in the end and I'm ok with that. I may be totally off on this but it gives me comfort to think about it in this way.
Relevant for me , Just moved to Reno NV area and may work as IT for a casino . When I first heard the Gospel at 15 , my barber gave me Pascal’s wager. Never forgot it.
All this symbolism about gambling as something that alters money in a way we cannot understand just stroke me as symbolism of new kinds of investing... Market shares, bitcoins.
This week I'm intentionally ending my Duolingo streak at 665. It's not a huge deal to me or anything, I just felt that it was a nice and pure thing to do. I made sure to tell my friend who is very easily influenced by these meaningless numbers, in order to push his world view a little, and of course he was very shocked that I would sacrifice my long streak. One of the arguments he came up with to convince me not to do it was that I should then also quit everything else I ever do when I approach the number 666. The "puritan question" in this video seems to hit the same type of mindset. I notice people making this type of "argument" very often when I make a good decision that isn't completely rational, and although I can tell that this type of absolutist sophistry is taken straight from Satan's lips, I never quite know how to respond, to explain to them that you cannot reason in that purist way.
@@Shotzeethegamer It is a large burning 666 dominating my app during Christmas. I don’t think it’s particularly insane to skip that event. I rather think it’s in poor taste to go and make it happen willingly, when I have a choice not to, and when this little act of piety will cost me literally nothing. I’m not suggesting that this will make or break my ascent to Heaven, or anything. I just think it’s a nice little gesture for my God, Whom I love.
@@Shotzeethegamer It doesn’t matter if it’s Duolingo or anything else. I don’t care to participate in a large burning triple 6 on Christmas day, when I can also choose not to do anything at all and be in an objectively better state, since that streak has an effective value of “absolutely nothing”.
When the apostles appointed a replacement for Judas, didn't they get their appointment wrong though? Wasn't St Paul God's chosen replacement for Judas?
If God is Omniscient, why bother praying? Really?! 🤦♂️ How else do you ever hope to have a personal relationship with your Creator?! It is not sufficient just to know about God, you have to know Him both personally and intimately. Reality is not about escaping Hell and getting to heaven (saving your own bacon) but about being in a personal and intimate loving relationship with your Creator…forever! Simonline 🏴🤔🙏😀👍🇮🇱
The Bible says God knows what you need before you ask, but it doesn’t say he will give it to you without you asking. Remember Israel in the wilderness. Would a loving God give you everything you need though you deigned to ask? Only if he wanted spoiled, entitled, narcissistic unbearable children. There is no love in that. You can’t break psychological physics.
By definition, the future is not yet: God can do whatever He wants with it; the Biblical God at least. The idea of an unchangeable future or destiny is pagan, then protestant. Wrong, in one word.
Americans buying a lotto ticket is this symbolism. These (tick)ets suck the cash out of a lot-to combine into a lotto. We as cast buy into this roll. Our G is gambling, r g is rambling, Jesus is lambling. How can Jesus graze his family in the fields if there are only lots to pay. Only then will Jesus be herd.
why should we participate if this God already knows the outcome though? ''god wants you to participate... even though he already knows that the result of you participating is going to lead you to hell'' why even bother creating thos people in the fist place? 80 years of life on earth and then eternal torture can not better than never having lived at all.
The soul's outcome is known, but the path through flesh isn't. God knows, but it's our choice. It's a metaphysical conundrum, I'll give you that, but if you choose not to participate, then that's the path you chose, and that's the outcome that is presented.
@l.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.l yes but if I'm already destined for hell then it's a waste of time participating. In fact if I had any choice or free will I would have chosen not existing at all than be tortured forever. You think a God who creates people knowing that they are destined for hell is love? Sounds pretty sick to me
There is more than one interpretation of the Bible, you need to not reject the Bible, God and Christianity just because one of the interpretations doesn’t make sense to you. Read the Bible for yourself and see if you think it actually teaches that a loving and rational God pre-determines some people to an eternity of torture in hell. Personally, I cannot find a basis for that in the Bible.
@@jrettetsohyt1 then you musn't have a basis for an omniscient God that already knows that you're going to hell long before he creates you either... and once you remove omniscience from this God, the next question is who cares what this being wants if he can wrong about things.
If one believes in a predetermined fate, unfortunately there is no peace for them in assuming that they are fated to hell - - since death bed confessions are a thing. So even if you could never accept faith all the way up until the day you would die, you have no rational basis for predicting that how you see and feel about reality would change at deaths door step. We all know that we cannot certainly predict how we will be in a situation until we are actually in it, especially if that situation is intense. Godspeed.
the video's explanation of casting lots is convoluted, inaccurate, and relies on dubious connections and unclear concepts. it misrepresents the biblical practice and its theological significance. the biblical understanding of casting lots is that it was a method used to seek divine guidance in specific circumstances, not an embrace of chaos or a manipulation of dark forces.
Why all the mental gymnastics? Casting lots is a magic practice. It is not a symbolism. This was a science to them. The idea of prayer is rooted deeply in greek mythology. The gods were not all knowing and all seeing. Look at the roots in the ancient greek word for prayer προσευχή. It is an offering, a verbal offering often accompanied with a request. Perhaps one day we can discuss the bible in the context and culture it was written in. But, that seems impossible when the one doing the talking has to match the bible with his religious beliefs.
What mental gymnastics? This is all early church teaching. The them you are talking about are the them that thought this stuff up. The writings of the early church fathers and the tradition of the church were created in the context and the culture the bible itself was written in. The religion itself existed before the bible was written. Shutting your eyes and burying your head in the sand doesnt make it all go away
@David-vk5sv The bible and early Christianity are not original thought. Sorry to ruin your fairy tale. Spend a few days reading the writings of greek philosophers and the PGM then you'll see and hear what I'm talking about. That is if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.
@@David-vk5sv i'm not sure that people who were alive closer to the time that a religion started are immune to them getting fundamental parts of it wrong, i mean the church athers diagreed on things, and we're talking between 90-300 years after the fact anyway.. the things that can be added to a story through 'chinese whispers' in 90 years is not trivial... also these people were not infallible or deminstrably trustworthy outside of christians just saying that they feel that they can be trusted...
In engineering, we refer getting stuck in calculations as "paralysis by analysis". At some point you have to say pencils down, what happens will happen. Otherwise, life could not continue. The project wouldn't get finished.
Another consideration that goes along with these ideas: trusting God no matter what the outcome. Know that God is with you no matter what.. whether the result is metaphorically/symbolically heads or tails.
Having a baby is like this. You and your wife can track ovulation and focus on natural patterns but it is always God who grants fertility (and decides gender and hair color, etc)
“Thy will be done”, is key to understand and accept. So is utilizing our free will properly. Great clip!
I was a mediator by profession for many years. As a mediator, it was often my job to bring disputing parties to a place of agreement. The mechanism to agree does not actually have to be "fair" because the word fair really only means what people agree is a reasonable way to move forward.
Mediation law is purposefully open to any type of resolution. Anything that will prevent a judge from having to issue a decision for the parties.
I never did it in my years as a mediator, but I could see flipping a coin to be a completely legitimate "agreement" for who is at fault if all parties agree that the result of the coin toss is an acceptable resolution.
I've done similar things, and the interesting thing is that it is actually very useful to think outside of the box of "right/wrong" or "responsible/not responsible". If the parties have been given the autonomy to allow the coin to make the decision, they have actually acheived what we call "procedural justice". Very often, they go with whatever the mechanism they chose decides.
would you say the Lord's Justice is procedural?
@Reiman33 I'd never considered it, but i would say so. It is true that none of us asked to be created, so it would seem that our creation itself is outside of procedural justice (which is just an expression, not an actual form of justice). However, we are all given opportunities to receive "true life" by various means, and we are made well aware enough of the consequences of our actions before we make use of our wills.
Allmighty God. We pray for the ocean and the earth, and give thanks for creation of animals, birds, fish and plants. Help us to see the value in their being.
Amen!
Prayer is spiritual communication, a gift we I herit in Christ as members of the Body of Christ.
Jonathan, I think you have at least one very worthy book of prose within yourself on your ideas and insights, and I hope to see it someday.
We mediate between heaven and earth by meditating on His word, and praying. We are the means to God's ends.
Man roles, but God rules, the dice.(Pr 16:33,9)
Aquinas answered this question: "Speech is not always for the purpose of making something known to another; but is sometimes finally ordered to the purpose of manifesting something to the speaker himself; as when the disciples ask instruction from the master."
Not persuasive
When I first read "Abraham Pleads for Sodom", it very much intrigued me. I found Abraham's plead quite comical in the way that it is constructed. It's as if he's gambling and keeps lowering the stakes because he knows he has a bad hand. And then, in the end, only Lot was spared. That story really sounds like LOTERIE.
Could a hunch be a decision based on lots and lots of imperceivable aspects which you noticed - only you didn't realise you noticed. It's not conscious but unconscious
In the case of choosing among equal candidates given available information and a deadline, casting lots is more demonstrative of opening up space for God than actually opening up space for God, as if God needs us to roll dice to have sovereignty over the decision. Casting lots demonstrates to all concerned individuals that there was no bias; a hunch, on the other hand, can be highly influenced by bias. Casting lots in the final decision of equal candidates is a demonstration of humility that we have finite information; though one has to be careful that they're not doing it to abdicate responsibility.
People’s perspective has been radically changed by robotics. Where they default to thinking in terms of efficient systems. So when they think about God they assume his intentions must just be to set up something that goes automatically.
We pray because we are part of the story and must participate in it. We are not readers, we are characters.
Thank you again for your thorough answer to my quick question regarding the bishops drawing lots. You immediately identified the larger underlying question and assumptions, which I recognize as having lurked in the back of my mind for many years. Being recently chrismated, I am always thankful for further purging of my Protestant Puritan mindset in my journey to a richer and fuller faith in Orthodoxy. Thank you!
I find this a very interesting subject but your explanation was a bit confusion. Please make a longer video on this and maybe have your brother on as well.
Very understandable. Thanks!
Great clip. I'd substitue reason with 'free will' in a few places, giving up 'reason' is also giving up control. An acknowledgement that we've hit the limits of what we can do (reason) so we need to let go.
this is a very helpful vid to let me understand some common yet difficult questions to understand
Thanks
Any video presentations on Judas? Two different versions of death, why he didn't repent and receive forgiveness, and was he Satanically possessed? He did regret his choice, but still committed suicide (or fell and burst his guts asunder).
Exactly how tarot cards work
I have often thought it would be instructive if ever Pageau would look at the symbolism of the Rider-Waite deck
@ you’ve probably already read valentine Tomberg’s meditations on the tarot
@@BryanKirch I have only glanced at it, actually forgot all about that one
@ oh man. There’s audio versions on RUclips I’d have a listen you can break it into pieces. There’s playlists on here
@BryanKirch I'll check it out!
Ooooo this is a good question that I've often pondered because of my name and how Daniel 12:13 ends. What was Daniel's allotted inheritance? This might sound weird but my life maps onto his story eerily well.
I just read it, and it’s talking about the reincarnation of the flesh as far as I can tell. Judgment day. So you won’t know until you’re judged, was my understanding. I’m not sure it’s the kind of lot you cast for. It’s the kind that’s appointed to you based on the judgment.
Daniel’s story is pretty relatable to all of us like all the great stories with lasting appeal. I think Christians being able to see ourselves in the scripture is the normal state of things. Even revelation has the ability to be experienced in times that aren’t the end times, but only prefigure them. It’s necessary for us to be able to fully participate and experience God’s entire plan, from original sin which we live with every day to the end of days which Christians are able to see in motion in their own times even if their lives were lived thousands of years before ours. I have to remind myself and those around me of this, because sometimes God has made these patterns so accessible that we forget that doesn’t mean the world is really ending today or in our lifetimes. It’s just already revealed to us by our faith and God’s revelation to his people that it can feel astonishingly imminent (even when we aren’t suffering anywhere near as much as scripture talks about at the end, thank God!).
I hope that’s true for how you see yourself in Daniel’s story. I hope you’re not in captivity requiring a series of divine interventions to save you from gruesome deaths! But treasure your unique position to experience the reality of that pattern and to understand that its meaning applies to you also, and the power of the story is probably part of why the Lord ordained it to be part of the canonical scriptures. It is meant to speak to people beyond the one guy in the story.
May your own life story make a statement about faith that has power and meaning to others beyond yourself as well! ❤
@@animula6908 I really appreciate you sharing all of that. It's encouraging. The way Jonathan was talking about casting of lots is that it relates to when reason and logic fall short. That's when you give it up to God's Will. So I see this when God tells Daniel to ""Go your way Daniel and at the "end of your days" you will "rest" and then wake to your allotted inheritance."" I see Daniel as a man who gave up his life to serve but probably still wanted to return to his homeland which was taken from him. So God is basically telling him that human logic would be to think after everything Daniel went through the story should end with the happy ending like Jacob and Esau or Joseph but this isn't the case with Daniel. His Jubilee comes after he dies. The lot that God casts for Daniel.
My life has been a series of unfortunate events and have always felt stuck in a holding pattern. I read it as God telling me I may not get back what was taken from me in this life but not to worry because my salvation will come in the end and I'm ok with that. I may be totally off on this but it gives me comfort to think about it in this way.
Relevant for me , Just moved to Reno NV area and may work as IT for a casino . When I first heard the Gospel at 15 , my barber gave me Pascal’s wager. Never forgot it.
Clarifying question: what makes the question of 'why don't we cast lots for everything?' Protestantism encapsulated?
Rock, 🪨
Paper 📄
Scissors ✂
☦️
All this symbolism about gambling as something that alters money in a way we cannot understand just stroke me as symbolism of new kinds of investing... Market shares, bitcoins.
This week I'm intentionally ending my Duolingo streak at 665. It's not a huge deal to me or anything, I just felt that it was a nice and pure thing to do. I made sure to tell my friend who is very easily influenced by these meaningless numbers, in order to push his world view a little, and of course he was very shocked that I would sacrifice my long streak. One of the arguments he came up with to convince me not to do it was that I should then also quit everything else I ever do when I approach the number 666. The "puritan question" in this video seems to hit the same type of mindset. I notice people making this type of "argument" very often when I make a good decision that isn't completely rational, and although I can tell that this type of absolutist sophistry is taken straight from Satan's lips, I never quite know how to respond, to explain to them that you cannot reason in that purist way.
That's being insane.
@ In what sense?
@@SimpleAmadeus The mark of the beast has nothing to do with your Duolingo streak lol
@@Shotzeethegamer It is a large burning 666 dominating my app during Christmas. I don’t think it’s particularly insane to skip that event. I rather think it’s in poor taste to go and make it happen willingly, when I have a choice not to, and when this little act of piety will cost me literally nothing.
I’m not suggesting that this will make or break my ascent to Heaven, or anything. I just think it’s a nice little gesture for my God, Whom I love.
@@Shotzeethegamer It doesn’t matter if it’s Duolingo or anything else. I don’t care to participate in a large burning triple 6 on Christmas day, when I can also choose not to do anything at all and be in an objectively better state, since that streak has an effective value of “absolutely nothing”.
When the apostles appointed a replacement for Judas, didn't they get their appointment wrong though? Wasn't St Paul God's chosen replacement for Judas?
"Apostle" means witness of the resurrection of Christ. That's different than the twelve disciples.
If God is Omniscient, why bother praying? Really?! 🤦♂️ How else do you ever hope to have a personal relationship with your Creator?! It is not sufficient just to know about God, you have to know Him both personally and intimately. Reality is not about escaping Hell and getting to heaven (saving your own bacon) but about being in a personal and intimate loving relationship with your Creator…forever!
Simonline 🏴🤔🙏😀👍🇮🇱
The Bible says God knows what you need before you ask, but it doesn’t say he will give it to you without you asking. Remember Israel in the wilderness.
Would a loving God give you everything you need though you deigned to ask? Only if he wanted spoiled, entitled, narcissistic unbearable children. There is no love in that. You can’t break psychological physics.
First🎉
By definition, the future is not yet: God can do whatever He wants with it; the Biblical God at least.
The idea of an unchangeable future or destiny is pagan, then protestant. Wrong, in one word.
Americans buying a lotto ticket is this symbolism. These (tick)ets suck the cash out of a lot-to combine into a lotto. We as cast buy into this roll. Our G is gambling, r g is rambling, Jesus is lambling. How can Jesus graze his family in the fields if there are only lots to pay. Only then will Jesus be herd.
Take your lithium
why should we participate if this God already knows the outcome though? ''god wants you to participate... even though he already knows that the result of you participating is going to lead you to hell''
why even bother creating thos people in the fist place? 80 years of life on earth and then eternal torture can not better than never having lived at all.
The soul's outcome is known, but the path through flesh isn't. God knows, but it's our choice. It's a metaphysical conundrum, I'll give you that, but if you choose not to participate, then that's the path you chose, and that's the outcome that is presented.
@l.-._.-._.-._.-._.-.l yes but if I'm already destined for hell then it's a waste of time participating. In fact if I had any choice or free will I would have chosen not existing at all than be tortured forever.
You think a God who creates people knowing that they are destined for hell is love? Sounds pretty sick to me
There is more than one interpretation of the Bible, you need to not reject the Bible, God and Christianity just because one of the interpretations doesn’t make sense to you. Read the Bible for yourself and see if you think it actually teaches that a loving and rational God pre-determines some people to an eternity of torture in hell.
Personally, I cannot find a basis for that in the Bible.
@@jrettetsohyt1 then you musn't have a basis for an omniscient God that already knows that you're going to hell long before he creates you either... and once you remove omniscience from this God, the next question is who cares what this being wants if he can wrong about things.
If one believes in a predetermined fate, unfortunately there is no peace for them in assuming that they are fated to hell - - since death bed confessions are a thing. So even if you could never accept faith all the way up until the day you would die, you have no rational basis for predicting that how you see and feel about reality would change at deaths door step.
We all know that we cannot certainly predict how we will be in a situation until we are actually in it, especially if that situation is intense. Godspeed.
the video's explanation of casting lots is convoluted, inaccurate, and relies on dubious connections and unclear concepts. it misrepresents the biblical practice and its theological significance. the biblical understanding of casting lots is that it was a method used to seek divine guidance in specific circumstances, not an embrace of chaos or a manipulation of dark forces.
I love Jonathan, but the Protestant straw-manning is tiresome. The lack of charity is notable.
Why all the mental gymnastics? Casting lots is a magic practice. It is not a symbolism. This was a science to them. The idea of prayer is rooted deeply in greek mythology. The gods were not all knowing and all seeing. Look at the roots in the ancient greek word for prayer προσευχή. It is an offering, a verbal offering often accompanied with a request. Perhaps one day we can discuss the bible in the context and culture it was written in. But, that seems impossible when the one doing the talking has to match the bible with his religious beliefs.
What mental gymnastics? This is all early church teaching. The them you are talking about are the them that thought this stuff up. The writings of the early church fathers and the tradition of the church were created in the context and the culture the bible itself was written in. The religion itself existed before the bible was written. Shutting your eyes and burying your head in the sand doesnt make it all go away
@David-vk5sv The bible and early Christianity are not original thought. Sorry to ruin your fairy tale. Spend a few days reading the writings of greek philosophers and the PGM then you'll see and hear what I'm talking about. That is if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.
@@David-vk5sv i'm not sure that people who were alive closer to the time that a religion started are immune to them getting fundamental parts of it wrong, i mean the church athers diagreed on things, and we're talking between 90-300 years after the fact anyway.. the things that can be added to a story through 'chinese whispers' in 90 years is not trivial... also these people were not infallible or deminstrably trustworthy outside of christians just saying that they feel that they can be trusted...