Johnny is literally describing Andy and Johnny collaborating on writing the songs together. That’s the only possible interpretation of this description. The only thing missing is credit for cowriting the songs.
People on the Internet: “Marr wrote the bass lines. And the drum parts. And then taught/told Mike how to play them.” Bassists and drummers on the Internet: “whut?”
The thing is if Andy had been in another band, lets say The Cure - he would have almost certainly got a song writing credit. But this is the curse of Lennon/McCartney, that's how Morrissey/Marr saw themselves. Andy was at the very least an arranger but definitely more than 10%
I agree that the bass lines are so integral, but I think what Marr is saying here is that Rourke was a creative personality whose music needed to be arranged.
That's because Robert Smith is pure class. There are so many Cure albums where he is doing most of the heavy lifting but he still gives all band members equal credit.
They should have been full time members not hired cats, but they should. It have gotten a writing credit. If one did not write the chords or melody or lyrics then they did not write the song. Look at gamble and huff.
@@mumbles215the bass line is literally part of the melody/chords (infantile way to put it) harmonic progression of the song, you haven’t a clue what you’re on about.
Yes Andy Rourke was a great bass player (RIP) and Mike Joyce a great drummer. One of the best rhythm sections in music. They played their instruments to perfection, 100%, while Morrissey and Marr played theirs. Each member was more than capable of playing their parts at a high level, equally. And yes they all contributed to the music and collaborated as a band should. That’s a band. That’s how music works. They were The Smiths. Great alt band. RIP Andy. 😔
That's true - the song is nothing but the bassline. Even on This Charming man his bassline totally changes the chord progression and massively improves it.@@db4035
Thanks for uploading this - I was the guy who asked the question in the Q+A at the end. Always intrigued me how Marr and Rourke collaborated. Those bass lines are so melodic and original. A lot of the time you find yourself humming the bass line as well as the guitar. And not just the obvious ones like 'Barbarism' or 'This Charming Man' - ALL OF THEM! The bass line 'Rusholme Ruffians' is pure genius. I've been a fan of the Smiths for 30+ years and in all of the books, documentaries, interviews etc etc the specific question... who wrote the bass lines for the Smiths and how did Marr and Rourke collaborate? has never really ever been asked (I don't think). Anyway, Marr's response was brilliant. Detailed and specific. So honest and complementary of Rourke's genius. 30+ years later I got my answer. Thanks again for uploading👍
Agree with everything you said above and have a similar fan background learning most Smiths guitar riffs by ear back in ‘80’s with the help of video / audio bootlegs, etc.. When I heard you ask that question I immediately whipped out my phone to record thinking.. jeez that’s a question I would like to asked..but hadn’t thought of it.. it’s crazy with all the interviews done through the years I’ve never seen this question posed by any journalist anywhere..(though I did ask Andy once) …so kudos for asking !!
We have a lot in common. I'm also a Smiths fan 30+ years and the bass lines are a huge part of the music for me ('There is a Light' stands out for me in that regard). I had read various claims and counter-claims on various forums, but never really found an answer I was happy to believe. It is exactly the question I would have wanted answered by Marr himself. Thank you sir. @@smashinglads
Yeah the 'Marr/Rourke/bass line creation' thing has always been a bit vague. Thanks for your question and thanks to Johnny for such a terrific answer. It's great to hear the specifics, at last!
Great question! Andy was an amazing and creative bass player but what I'm hearing from Marr, very modestly, is that he curated and shaped those bass lines.
this! needs to be shared everywhere to diminish the misinformation of Johnny writing all the basslines that ppl *_still_* believe to this day. Andy made wonderful music, he was no session musician. People must realise that Andy partly creates that special quality Smiths songs have
I suppose guitar players do have a tendency to play complicated, spidery bass lines that bass players don’t. I’m a guitarist who dabbles in bass and was filling in for a friend’s band for 3 gigs. The songs were all originals and the bass lines had been done by the singer/guitarist and you could tell. They weren’t anchoring the song in the way the bass line of the one (Neil Young) cover we did in the set. Lots of notes on the D and G string, little flourishes that you couldn’t really hear and just too many notes overall. You can see why Andy Rourke’s bass lines might’ve been attributed to Johnny Marr. They were up and down the neck and bouncing around. Although Andy had all the bits that anchored the songs exactly where they needed to be. So good.
@@Dreyno Funny, I always thought that Andy wrote his own basslines and was puzzled on the rare occasion that I'd hear someone claim that Marr wrote them for him. Not that I knew for certain, but it seemed so obvious. They just really sound like they were written by two different people playing off each other, rather than one person expressing their particular creative vision. Andy's basslines were so interesting in part because they're so unexpected, while still working so well, which I think Marr expresses in this interview. It's an effect that's rare for one person to achieve, at least in rock music--to write in two very different musical "personalities" so consistently. You'd expect either for more elements cross over from one instrument to the other, or for the basslines to be demoted to mainly a support role for the guitar. That's my take as someone who plays guitar and bass and taught themselves how to play both instruments simultaneously, but who slightly prefers bass. Despite Marr's brilliance, I don't think he ever could have come with parts like that on his own.
@@ceruleanstone I think a lot of the people who say that aren’t musicians themselves. I understand why they might think it but when you play the instruments you know they’re written by different people people.
@@Dreyno You're probably right. Music is a language, and as you become more fluent, you start to notice and understand all sorts of stuff that you otherwise would have missed.
@@ceruleanstone I know people who love a song and can’t pick out the guitar or bass from the overall sound. Only when they start to play do they appreciate what actually makes the sounds they like.
The trouble is, if the song is already written, and even if the bass player (or second guitar player, keyboard player, whatever) comes up with a totally iconic line that is seemingly intrinsic to the song, you could do an acoustic version of the song and completely ignore that secondary musical bit. There's a difference between composition and arrangement. It's a fine line.
Huh? He doesn’t play any instruments.. Tambourine excepted - but is that really an instrument?! “Have you heard him play piano?” 😂 Death of a Disco excepted..but was that really playing piano ?!
In the solo era, he would listen to the music and ask the players to make edits like “extend the verse a couple bars, “take the chorus part and make it the bridge.” Etc. Then show up an song over it.
Just a few short clips really - I might amalgamate and upload in a few days and post the link here.. But this entire interview is likely to be uploaded by Blindboy as a podcast in the near future so I will add the link here also when he does that. The entire conversation/ talking time between the two was over two hours ! Very entertaining overall
A plastic shopping bag, shaped into a balaclava. He always wears it in public performances for anonymity. His podcast is unique and highly recommended.
Considering the complexity of the basslines, you could only do that if you felt them. You can tell only Andy could come up with them if he could play them.
Good to hear how much you valued Rourke. Shame, then, you tried so hard to stop him getting paid royalties for the music, so that you and Morrissey would make money from the Smiths but not him and Joyce. Very many songwriters don't take that choice. Your choice left Rourke in financial distress for decades until he died. Decent band members look after each other. You and Morissey thought only pragmatically, only about yourselves. You two got lost in industry rules and forgot about human values.
No way! he’s been a prolific musician ever since. He’s played with Pretenders, Electronic, the the, modest mouse, pet shop boys and many others, including soundtracks like James Bond and Inception.
The full interview is now available to listen to here :
play.acast.com/s/blindboy/johnny-marr
Those bass lines were worth more than 10 percent.
Quite right. Morrissey and Marr screwed Andy.
Johnny is literally describing Andy and Johnny collaborating on writing the songs together. That’s the only possible interpretation of this description. The only thing missing is credit for cowriting the songs.
@@XY-xn4op Johnny comes across as cool regarding Andy and his contribution, but he still had 40 percent.
Nice to see a guitarist giving their bass player credit. Andy's bass lines added so much to those songs.
People on internet = Marr wrote the bass lines.
Johnny Marr = Rourke wrote them.
People on the Internet: “Marr wrote the bass lines. And the drum parts. And then taught/told Mike how to play them.”
Bassists and drummers on the Internet: “whut?”
Yeah Rourke and Joyce contributed their parts.
Name one bad smiths song
@@mufc99okmiserable lie, never had no one ever to name a few
@@ethanc1719 Haha absolutely not
The thing is if Andy had been in another band, lets say The Cure - he would have almost certainly got a song writing credit. But this is the curse of Lennon/McCartney, that's how Morrissey/Marr saw themselves. Andy was at the very least an arranger but definitely more than 10%
I agree that the bass lines are so integral, but I think what Marr is saying here is that Rourke was a creative personality whose music needed to be arranged.
That's because Robert Smith is pure class. There are so many Cure albums where he is doing most of the heavy lifting but he still gives all band members equal credit.
They should have been full time members not hired cats, but they should. It have gotten a writing credit. If one did not write the chords or melody or lyrics then they did not write the song. Look at gamble and huff.
@@mumbles215the bass line is literally part of the melody/chords (infantile way to put it) harmonic progression of the song, you haven’t a clue what you’re on about.
Thanks for posting, that's really interesting and rather sweet.
Amazing vid mate, thanks for the upload
Yes Andy Rourke was a great bass player (RIP) and Mike Joyce a great drummer. One of the best rhythm sections in music. They played their instruments to perfection, 100%, while Morrissey and Marr played theirs.
Each member was more than capable of playing their parts at a high level, equally.
And yes they all contributed to the music and collaborated as a band should. That’s a band. That’s how music works.
They were The Smiths. Great alt band.
RIP Andy. 😔
But where's Andy's credit on the albums?
Never for bass lines
But some of the instantly recognisable parts of Smiths songs are the bass lines
@@craigie1973Should have defo got one on Barbarism.
That's true - the song is nothing but the bassline. Even on This Charming man his bassline totally changes the chord progression and massively improves it.@@db4035
@@db4035100% this
Thanks for uploading this - I was the guy who asked the question in the Q+A at the end.
Always intrigued me how Marr and Rourke collaborated. Those bass lines are so melodic and original. A lot of the time you find yourself humming the bass line as well as the guitar. And not just the obvious ones like 'Barbarism' or 'This Charming Man' - ALL OF THEM! The bass line 'Rusholme Ruffians' is pure genius.
I've been a fan of the Smiths for 30+ years and in all of the books, documentaries, interviews etc etc the specific question... who wrote the bass lines for the Smiths and how did Marr and Rourke collaborate? has never really ever been asked (I don't think).
Anyway, Marr's response was brilliant. Detailed and specific. So honest and complementary of Rourke's genius. 30+ years later I got my answer.
Thanks again for uploading👍
Agree with everything you said above and have a similar fan background learning most Smiths guitar riffs by ear back in ‘80’s with the help of video / audio bootlegs, etc..
When I heard you ask that question I immediately whipped out my phone to record thinking.. jeez that’s a question I would like to asked..but hadn’t thought of it..
it’s crazy with all the interviews done through the years I’ve never seen this question posed by any journalist anywhere..(though I did ask Andy once) …so kudos for asking !!
I was doing the same in the early 90's - before the internet 😬@@mcauliffej
We have a lot in common. I'm also a Smiths fan 30+ years and the bass lines are a huge part of the music for me ('There is a Light' stands out for me in that regard). I had read various claims and counter-claims on various forums, but never really found an answer I was happy to believe. It is exactly the question I would have wanted answered by Marr himself. Thank you sir. @@smashinglads
Yeah the 'Marr/Rourke/bass line creation' thing has always been a bit vague. Thanks for your question and thanks to Johnny for such a terrific answer. It's great to hear the specifics, at last!
Great question! Andy was an amazing and creative bass player but what I'm hearing from Marr, very modestly, is that he curated and shaped those bass lines.
Johnny gives credit to Andy, but Andy only got 10%.
this!
needs to be shared everywhere to diminish the misinformation of Johnny writing all the basslines that ppl *_still_* believe to this day. Andy made wonderful music, he was no session musician. People must realise that Andy partly creates that special quality Smiths songs have
I suppose guitar players do have a tendency to play complicated, spidery bass lines that bass players don’t. I’m a guitarist who dabbles in bass and was filling in for a friend’s band for 3 gigs. The songs were all originals and the bass lines had been done by the singer/guitarist and you could tell. They weren’t anchoring the song in the way the bass line of the one (Neil Young) cover we did in the set. Lots of notes on the D and G string, little flourishes that you couldn’t really hear and just too many notes overall.
You can see why Andy Rourke’s bass lines might’ve been attributed to Johnny Marr. They were up and down the neck and bouncing around. Although Andy had all the bits that anchored the songs exactly where they needed to be. So good.
@@Dreyno Funny, I always thought that Andy wrote his own basslines and was puzzled on the rare occasion that I'd hear someone claim that Marr wrote them for him. Not that I knew for certain, but it seemed so obvious. They just really sound like they were written by two different people playing off each other, rather than one person expressing their particular creative vision.
Andy's basslines were so interesting in part because they're so unexpected, while still working so well, which I think Marr expresses in this interview. It's an effect that's rare for one person to achieve, at least in rock music--to write in two very different musical "personalities" so consistently. You'd expect either for more elements cross over from one instrument to the other, or for the basslines to be demoted to mainly a support role for the guitar.
That's my take as someone who plays guitar and bass and taught themselves how to play both instruments simultaneously, but who slightly prefers bass. Despite Marr's brilliance, I don't think he ever could have come with parts like that on his own.
@@ceruleanstone I think a lot of the people who say that aren’t musicians themselves. I understand why they might think it but when you play the instruments you know they’re written by different people people.
@@Dreyno You're probably right. Music is a language, and as you become more fluent, you start to notice and understand all sorts of stuff that you otherwise would have missed.
@@ceruleanstone I know people who love a song and can’t pick out the guitar or bass from the overall sound. Only when they start to play do they appreciate what actually makes the sounds they like.
so in other words Rourke should have shared writing credits. He did no less than Adam Clayton from U2 but wasn't credited as a writer
100%
Or Bruce Thomas from The Attractions on Elvis Costellos 70's and 80's hits. Elvis has admitted as much
exactly
Did way more than Adam Clayton
The trouble is, if the song is already written, and even if the bass player (or second guitar player, keyboard player, whatever) comes up with a totally iconic line that is seemingly intrinsic to the song, you could do an acoustic version of the song and completely ignore that secondary musical bit. There's a difference between composition and arrangement. It's a fine line.
❤❤❤
This was great. Curious, does anyone know what Morrissey's approach to songwriting is? Does he strum an acoustic, sit at a piano?
Huh? He doesn’t play any instruments..
Tambourine excepted - but is that really an instrument?!
“Have you heard him play piano?” 😂
Death of a Disco excepted..but was that really playing piano ?!
In the solo era, he would listen to the music and ask the players to make edits like “extend the verse a couple bars, “take the chorus part and make it the bridge.” Etc. Then show up an song over it.
Thanks for posting
Do you have any other footage?
Just a few short clips really - I might amalgamate and upload in a few days and post the link here..
But this entire interview is likely to be uploaded by Blindboy as a podcast in the near future so I will add the link here also when he does that. The entire conversation/ talking time between the two was over two hours !
Very entertaining overall
That would be epic mate.
Here’s hoping he uploads the chat as a podcast episode. Really wish there was a way to hear his recent chat with Kneecap
Here you go - not too much but a few more anecdotes etc
ruclips.net/video/m0lC5cexGWU/видео.html
What's the interviewer got on his head / face?
A plastic shopping bag, shaped into a balaclava. He always wears it in public performances for anonymity. His podcast is unique and highly recommended.
Considering the complexity of the basslines, you could only do that if you felt them. You can tell only Andy could come up with them if he could play them.
"I always think of bass players...their best friend in the band is"
The drummer?
Yes that’s what he said (just after vid stopped)… and is generally true
Good to hear how much you valued Rourke. Shame, then, you tried so hard to stop him getting paid royalties for the music, so that you and Morrissey would make money from the Smiths but not him and Joyce. Very many songwriters don't take that choice. Your choice left Rourke in financial distress for decades until he died. Decent band members look after each other. You and Morissey thought only pragmatically, only about yourselves. You two got lost in industry rules and forgot about human values.
Imagine retiring at 24, marr did effectively to most listeners
No way! he’s been a prolific musician ever since. He’s played with Pretenders, Electronic, the the, modest mouse, pet shop boys and many others, including soundtracks like James Bond and Inception.