@@NoOne-sc3fz I don't know what ya'll are talking about, SSD's aren't too expensive if you buy smart at least here in Canada. For instance, Kingston NV1 500GB is only $49.99 on Amazon. I have it and use it with a Saberent NVMe enclosure as an external drive, works well Although that's just here in Canada I don't know about world wide
@@PainfullySoberAndUnhinged I can't remember, but I think the story about the contaminated drives had just happened when I posted that. Just joking and hoping the prices didn't go up. The same drive is around the same price (pretax, of course) here, around 50 USD/65CAD.
I have been an SSD developer for 10 years and have worked for 3 different companies and this video was surprisingly accurate. There is a logical-to-physical address mapping table that needs to be referenced before any read or write sent from the OS to find the appropriate data. Sometimes, it can exist in a driver running on the host computer using its DRAM, which is what Fusion-io did, but it required a special driver to be made. I somewhat threw up in my mouth when I heard that there would be a flash read to first acquire the physical address before any read or write can happen. It is possible to detect when someone is performing a sequential read because you end up seeing something like a series of reads/writes coming in that goes from logical address 56 to 57 to 58 to 59 to 60 to 61, then you go, I bet the next one will be 62, 63, 64, etc, so lets just prefetch some certain number of their physical addresses in anticipation, but not true if the addresses are random.
@@faku1350 he never used dram less ssd himself and just reading it from the script. Its been 4 years & mine works as fast as it can. Instant wake from sleep.
Might it be time for a 2021/2022 update to this video? Some of the newer DRAMless SSDs have apparently gotten quite good. Techpowerup rated the WD SN570 as one of the fastest PCIe 3.0 SSDs they've ever tested in real-world performance, despite it being DRAMless.
@@Layarion I'm really sorry, but you're half correct about that. This video's main topic is literally as the title says, it is about the DRAM on an SSD, be it on a SATA or M.2 or M.2 NVMe form factor. Since it's an old video, they mention less about NVMe. But that's purely because back then when this video was uploaded, NVME prices are so expensive as hell, not a thing that casual consumers would buy unless they're rich enthusiasts. Nothing more, nothing less. For example, a 1 TB of Samsung 960 costs as much as IDR 8.5 millions here in Indonesia (around USD $653.8 according to 2016 conversion). And it's *twice* the price for the 1 TB of Samsung 960 PRO. Just who in their right minds would buy that except for companies or rich enthusiasts? You read too much, it never was about a comparison between the two form factor in the first place 🤦♂️ DRAM is important when you use your SSD as your OS drive, regardless of whether you use either SATA or M.2 NVMe SSDs
now we need a way to differentiate between SSDs with dram and those without (advertisers will definitely try as hard as possible to make it impossible to tell the difference)
They should be required to put the DRAM capacity in the title along with the NAND capacity. Also it would be cool to see them put the processor specs on their official product page
It was interesting to see while working at NCIX how SSDs made by companies that used to offer 5-year warranties and MLC shifted to newer versions with TLC and 3-year warranties.
I've got plenty of TLC drives all with 5y warranties and 500-800 TBW I bought within the last two years. One of them being DRAM-less and doing a perfect job even over 40Gb USB which prevents it from using system memory as a cache.
I've used DRAMless and DRAM SSDs side by side, gotta tell ya, no noticeable difference. Wouldn't really recommend a DRAMless one necessarily, but idk if you're setting up a media server with some left over parts or something and just need a boot drive, DRAMless seems good enough. Even like a gaming PC you don't use a whole hell of a lot. I know this is old, but Linus still has a heart attack whenever the topic of DRAMless SSDs rears it's head and it's too much.
Certain models and capacities are almost double the price, while smaller capacities are about 30% cheaper so it does make sense. I've had my Kingston 120gig for 8 years.
DRAMless will kill the SSD real quick especially when you use it for OS my OS is writing above 50GB daily to my SSD and only after 3 years my drive life remaining is only 17%
@@loucipher7782 and in the case of laptops [or any-other-computer] where you have only *one* internal-storage-bay, having "multiple" physical-drives (ie. 1 for the operating-system, 1 for your files) isn't an option :-( . (Yeah we could have-a-external-USB-storage-drive but that's not what-we're-talking-about-here).
@@loucipher7782 Damn what SSD you are using? I have a DRAMless m.2 SSD for my OS too and i work with 3D application on the same drive and it has only lost 2% in one year. I am planning to buy another DRAMless SSD
@@SagarGaud1 kingston a400, turns out it was false reporting by hwinfo i guess because when i install the kingston ssd software it shows 83% life remaining, not sure which is real but still its going down fast compare to my other MLC type SSD with DRAM is still at 99% after 6 years lol the DRAM portion report 150+TB write, while host write is about 50+TB
@@real_andrii bruh i looked at some benchmark videos of a really cheap Intenso SSD obviously without DRAM and they are not really slower than any other SATA III SSDs.
You didn't really explain why having the map stored in system ram would be slower. The DRAM on the SSD is getting reloaded at startup, too, I presume. I doubt it's battery backed or anything. All I can think of is possibly latency in having to go through the bus to get the RAM. But that latency is usually rather low. I mean, it's effectively the latency of the entire computer, since everything except sometimes the GPU uses that memory. In fact, I'd like to see you do some actual benchmarks, with those that keep it in memory, those who write it on disk (why?) and those which do it automatically. It might also be interesting to see if there are any that let the system do the wear leveling.
If it uses only the system RAM, that means that for every single operation, it needs to go from the RAM to the SSD and back. That's a lot of traveling compared to a DRAM SSD where operations can be handled internally (within the SSD) then sent to the system RAM. Unless I'm missing something?
Yep basicly, for the cost saving without a Dram cache should be avoid (as linus said) the 2 main down sides of having the page table having to be read and written to nand can cause the drive to slow down the more data that is stored and there is the possible issue with the drive wearing out sooner And if you get a HMB dramless ssd you have to make sure your system ram is running perfectly (ideally not overclocked) or you could lose data best case or worst case permanently Brick the ssd when it saves bad page data back to the ssd (as it has to keep the ram HMB page table in sync with the ssd nand page table) Just buy a ssd with Dram (don't buy any Kingston ssds with only one word in it like the spammed to death a400) any 2 letter Kingston ssd as they have Dram on them any MX crucial SSD (they do have power loss immunity to actually protect the page table as well as built in raid like fuction called RAIN) Samsung SSD as all Samsung SSDs after the 850 (don't buy 840 evo unless its the pro) have a Dram on them
@@leexgx I am planning to buy a mx500 model of crucial. I will also increase the ram up to 8 gb. It would work nicely, right ? I dont play game or so on the laptop.
Should be in the spec sheet, but if in doubt, compare the price to a Samsung 850 Evo at the same capacity. If it's quite a bit cheaper, it's probably DRAM-less (( Also comparing IOPS or Read/Write speeds is another indication ))
One thing that you forgot to mention is that most of these DRAM-less SSDs are a great choice for netbook type machines, since it actually improves battery life compared to regular SSDs and usually the performance is already bottle-capped by the machine.
3 years now. Still around a $10 difference to just get one with DRAM Cache. But in terms of performance, it's not much different now in real world terms. Most Mobo now have HMB where you can store the mapping withing the cpu cache results in a bit better performance. Some newer mobo have DMA which means you have direct access to your system RAM resulting in almost identical performance to and SSD with DRAM cache. This does NOT work with SATA SSD though. Most external connections cannot use HMB or DMA so the performance is still poo on those. Crucial p2 performs just fine for most especially if they came from a HDD or an older SATA SSD. SATA vs M.2 is about the same as far as DRAM vs DRAM less. Same trade off's with price/performance/longevity. Interesting enough, Samsung claims their new 980 DRAM less M.2 no longer have the wear and tear problem. Not sure how true that statement is considering their gimmicky marketing record. But the fact that they back it up with the same 5 year warranty is a pretty good sign imo.
1:20 AFAIK, RAM is Random Access Memory. It's fast for accessing random memory location, but it's volatile. One power-off event and your 100% data is gone. So how does it store the memory map there?
Easy, move it into RAM after powering on the PC, move it back over before turning off (probably sync it up every x amount of time/if something changes). Problem is things could go corrupt, so there's likely a check for that as well which might make it even slower too.
The memory map can be stored on the nand flash and then copied over to the dram cashe when the drive is powered on just like how Windows is stored on your SSD when your computer is off and when you turn it on lots of Windows files are copied over to ram.
It will be good to revisit this topic again, I just got the Samsung 980 nvme, which is DRamless, honestly it performs like a beast, way better than the previous Sata SSD that I had.
honestly I didnt even know i was running DRAMless SSDs and i never had the feeling there was any bottlenecking, so unless you are a performance user it doesnt matter
Okay okay, so a little update for you people here. Just because an SSD is DRAM-less doesn't make it really bad. Firstly it depends on the use, my Grandmother has a DRAM-less SSD (A Crucial BX500 series in fact) in her Laptop, which is completely adequate for her. Since except for windows 10 and a lot of pictures there isn't really anything on there, nor is she looking to write huge files on that SSD. The biggest file may just be a 1080p movie she wants to copy over. She just wanted to make her 9 year old laptop with a failing HDD fast again. Sure if you are looking for constant high read and writes, for exampling making video-production SSDs with DRAM will be the better option. But if you are like me and you have a gaming PC with an SSD for windows 10 and a huge and fast HDD for games, DRAM is not really a concern. Hell I knowingly bought a DRAM-less SSD for my laptop and it's completely fine for anything I do with it on the go, like office work, watching Videos or playing some games. Just because DRAM SSDs are the best and most expensive option does not make them necessary and in term of reliability my 60GB Kingston SSDNow v300 is still going strong after 5 years now having been wiped multiple times and written and read from a lot (media drive) and it only has NAND MLC. So don't sweat it and think you made the worst purchase decision in the world, if you need a cheap and fast SSD for normal day use, a DRAM-less SSD is just fine.
What's crazy is some brands now make hybrid cache SSDs. Which use both SLC and Dram cache. Unfortunately, they still don't explain how much cache their drives have.
I tried to see the difference first hand, I got a Kingston A400 240gb SSD & installed it in my Dell Precision M6500. It's a 10 year old laptop with a first gen I5 with 8gb of ram. Before I had a SanDisk Extreme SSD that recently failed. I figured that this old laptop that doesn't even have SATA III. (It has SATA II) would be just as fine with a cheap SSD. Boy was I wrong! I can notice a huge difference between the old SanDisk Extreme to this cheap Kingston. Like it still better then a mechanical hard drive.... But ugh..... It really does annoy me! It seems like it also gets overwhelmed at times when I have many processes happening at once. It's creating a bottleneck on a 10 year old laptop...... So yeah really proves that SSD's with DRAM is the only option for me moving forward!
I'd love to see an updated video Samsung and WD both have ssd that are dramless that supposedly run just as well as dram drives and apparently nvme protocol 1.4 helped a lot with how dram less drives work I'm curious if all this Information still holds true or if dramless ssd might be an okay option now...
Hello, Linus! I love this video so much, and I want to make sure everyone can understand and enjoy it. That's why I wanted to let you know that your captions are a little off. At about 0:41 the auto-captions say "ran" where they meant to say "ram". When you get a chance, could you fix that? That'll help the 360 million folks globally who rely on closed captions to understand videos. Thank you, and keep up the great work!
Late response, I know. It'll often mention a "cache size" or otherwise on the product page. If not, look the model number and try to find a spec sheet. If neither make mention of a cache being present, assume it is DRAM-less.
@@jeninimas @the-part "It'll often mention a "cache size" or otherwise on the product page. If not, look for the model-number and try to find a spec sheet.": Unfortunately I’ve discovered that one can’t really count on that :-( . Adata (and its own website) claims that the “ADATA SU750” has DRAM-cache, but unfortunately, one opened it up (a tech-savvy computer-user that bought one; I read (as-in the one that’s pronounced “red”) various reviews of this online) and discovered that it had no DRAM-chip in it. Alot of other SSD manufacturers [that I’ve discovered when looking for DRAM-Cache-containing SSD’s online] claim they have DRAM-Cache chips in their SSD’s but actually they don’t and they just have [a small] SLC-cache and the rest [what Linus said].
The best budget SATA SSD is the crucial bx500. If you write no more than several Gb daily then it's always faster than a hard drive. It uses 3D TLC NAND which is more reliable than 2D used in many budgets SSDs (like the Kingston a400 and Gigabyte). If you're only using SATA2 there isn't much difference from SATA3 in daily use. The only problem is that once the SLC cache runs out it will write at around 90Mb/s instead of 500. In terms of operating system and game loading times this isn't that different from the top SATA SSDs. SSDs without DRAM like this do have a small amount of DRAM. The main thing is the responsiveness: the bx500's is as fast as some SSDs with DRAM like the bx300 and HP s700 pro. A budget SSD doesn't really need much DRAM if you're not writing a huge amount of data daily (like less than 10Gb). The main thing is to have 3D NAND as a DRAMless 2D-NAND SSD will wear out more quickly, much more so in some cases. The bx500 uses 64-layer 3D NAND rather than the older 32. 64 is a little faster. The 480Gb model has 25Gb of SLC cache, which drops as the SSD fills. The screw holes are metal so they won't strip like on some other budget SSDs that use plastic. Five percent of TLC-NAND SSDs fail in the first 4 years regardless of make so factor that into your budget (but then again in 3 years' time SSDs will be much cheaper). Don't erase your hard drive in case the SSD fails. I looked at Amazon user reviews of several European countries and out of 8000 reviews there were less than four percent that were 1- and 2-stars so the bx500 is one of the most reliable SSDs out there. If you want to clone your current drive you avoid Acronis as some people don't get on with it. Try AOMEI or Macruim Reflect free or EASEUS. Also put that clone image on the hard drive so it's ready for cloning a second time if the SSD fails. Before getting an SSD make sure you have much more RAM than you're now using. In the BIOS change the SATA settings from IDE to AHCI to get the proper speeds for the SSD. An SSD will fail for another reason long before too much data is written to it. If you're using one for long-term storage then connect it at least every 6 months. When the SSD is using TRIM ensure that software which could use the SSD is turned off. The BX500 uses TLC-NAND but the “newer” budget QLC m.2 NVMe SSDs, like the Intel 660p, should be avoided as QLC is a step backwards. The benchmarks show they're much faster than SATA SSDs but once the SLC cache runs out they show their true nature and are ~slow~. SSD and memory forum forums.anandtech.com/forums/memory-and-storage.47/ www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-warning-signs-ssd-break-fail/ www.hdsentinel.com software to check your SSD & hard drive before they fail (for Linux too)
I have huge Problems with the bx500, I get another one today to Test If its a hardwarefail . I have usage Spikes to 100% on a regular basis with 3000ms response times. Absolutely Bad Performance I have already Paranoia from 100% Disk usage I cant Play Games without FPS Drops every 10 minutes
So, how exactly to see if it is in fact DRAM-less? For the example SSD from SanDisk that you've used in the video I didn't notice anything mentioning it being DRAM-less.
check for the amount of dram the drive has itself, it shouldn't be that hard to find. spec sheets should be at your online seller or at your online price comparison side, geizhals in europe has the feature for example. it seems newegg is shit though and doesn't have this option to select.... it will usually be called "cache" in the options, but well nothing for newegg. so u gotta search through the manufacturer's specs to find that stuff. if u search the model number for the samsung ssds, u get the specs listed including dram cache, i couldn't find the same for the sandisk dram less crap, the side itself for the drives doesn't show any real specs either.... rule of thumb if u can't find important information for a product, the manufacturer probs wants to hide how crap it is. so if u can't find the dram of an ssd either contact the manufacturer directly or move on, but u should move away already after watching a real review of the drives and i don't mean these youtube jokes, where they look at the drives and copy one file, i mean anandtech for example. these dram less shit drives are made for oems to put crap into people's system and to scam people and uninformed buyers, that don't understand hardware and think "ssd=fast". also look at reputable reviews and roundups of ssds. any good side will trash dram less ssds, because they are utter garbage. i thought tlc was bad enough and tlc is actually a bunch cheaper so it makes sense, but dram less ssds really makes me lose hope in humanity this tiny bit more.....
TBH I had no clue these existed, and I wouldn't know to find if my SSD had DRAM or not. Maybe someone can put a post on the forum a list of good SSDs at a fair price.
I think you should do a follow-up to this. It's one year later, and DRAM-Less SSDs have shown that there are some applications for them. (I was sceptical at first as well, just FYI) 1. The prices have dropped considerably, e.g. the Crucial BX500 costs about half of what a standard SSD from a reputable brand cost. 2. If used as a storage drive for something like media the speed difference isn't that significant, since you don't do a lot of random reads & writes 3. It's still better than any HDD in every aspect except price (faster sequentials and randoms, less power consumption, no noise) So If you just want to replace the slow HDD in an older computer, or if you don't have a lot of money, but still want better than HDD performance, go with a DRAM-less SSD Reminder: Always buy SSDs from Brands you trust, don't put one of those no name pieces into your system, they often fail very early without warning and you lose your data Second reminder: There is no reason not to have a backup!
I'm having a hard time telling if a SSD has DRAM or not since even reputable ones seem to be taking it having DRAM for granted and not even specifying that they have it.
@@TheFourthWinchester‘s-comment/post “Look for the word cache/DRAM. If they don’t specify it, they don’t have it.”: Unfortunately I’ve discovered that one can’t really count on that :-( . Adata (and its own website) claims that the “ADATA SU750” has DRAM-cache, but unfortunately, one opened it up (a tech-savvy computer-user that bought one; I read (as-in the one that’s pronounced “red”) various reviews of this online) and discovered that it had no DRAM-chip in it. Alot of other SSD manufacturers [that I’ve discovered when looking for DRAM-Cache-containing SSD’s online] claim they have DRAM-Cache chips in their SSD’s but actually they don’t and they just have [a small] SLC-cache and the rest [what Linus said].
Now even expensive ones like Samsung doesn't even have dram because it doesn't need it. Nvme drives Ken and will use system rim instead and gets dedicated reserved access to it by the cpu.
Because at that time Sandisk sell Ram-less SSD with MLC chip. (Which I bought one too.) The MLC chip itself has double speed and endurance at least compared with today's TLC chip. And even TLC chip can offer 5-10 years endurance for an average user.
I can see them being useful as a backup drive, performance doesn't matter at all when used for that purpose and it will outlive the warranty if plugged in once a month to receive an update then unplugged and stored in whatever safe location you keep it. Not everyone trusts cloud storage and not everyone has the internet connection to use it because of data caps and some of them are on a tight budget so an extra hard drive is the answer if they need a safe backup, cheaper than an external drive and those being cheaper still they sound perfect for the task.
Allan Sh I think you would know if u use computers often enough. However, if u are concerned about it for some reason, u should be able to figure out the model of your ssd somewhere on the physical ssd (name, model number, etc.) where u can look it up online
@Techquickie Why are you accepting Symless' sponsorship? They are pretty disgraceful. Synergy (the first version) of their software was buggy and incomplete, and they are now asking for $50 to upgrade my Pro licence from "1" to 2. And here they are offering it for $14? I really think it's just a desperate cash grab. Really mixed feelings, as the software works great 99% of the time, but that 1% is just a bummer. And the missing features are annoying, as well -- and if you notice on their webpage, all of the interesting features are "(coming soon)". I dunno. Not convinced.
lol just ordered my 3rd DRAM less SSD. My first one was intel 520 180GB which I bought used and it still works to this day after 3-4 years with 100% health. Second was a WD green 120gb which is my boot drive and this 2 tb one will be my games drive.
Data cache would be the worst because they often have low bandwidth performance on par with a really good HDD. DRAM-less drives cut down on bill of material cost. So what they're good for is bulk storage. Next year we are getting QLC NAND (quad bits per cell), which is significantly cheaper than TLC (three bits per cell). It has worse endurance, worse latency, etc BUT it'll allow for cheaper high TB drives. So a DRAMless QLC NAND drive is going to end up competing with HDDs for all use cases for bulk storage. You get MUCH better energy efficiency, better I/O (especially for RAID and other resilient file systems & storage), better reliability and much higher density for servers and cases. Most storage systems use a tiered system of hot, warm and cold data. So DRAMless drives tend to be in the "cold" tier, often called WORM (write once, read many). Optane or Z-NAND will be cache (hot tier) and MLC or TLC NVMe PCIe SSDs will be the "warm" tier.
A DRAM-less almost cost half the price at the same capacity compared to DRAM ones today, and nowadays there are a lot of reputable brands too (Kingston A400 and Crucial BX500 are the first ones that come to mind). If you are looking to just revive that old laptop for high school or university, a DRAM SSD is definitely overkill imo.
I agree. Just recently threw a 30$ 240gb SSD into an old 09 MacMini, and it sails along just fine now. Admittedly for about 5-10$ more, I could've had a USED Samsung EVO, but the use case for this MacMini isn't anything critical, so I'm not worried about it.
according to my 30 min research. the downsides for dram is its volatility. it says that it loses all its memory once there's no power constantly flowing, unlike NAND which means that if I turn off my pc once, it will slow down? pls correct me if I'm wrong.
Idk, if you wanted to just store sequential data like videos and photos then you should just go with a hard drive. I guess if you wanted to use an SSD like a flash drive but with more performance then a DRAMless SSD could make sense since using a hard drive as a portable storage device probably won't end well because if it gets dropped it's dead but dropping an SSD is fine.
just buy something like team mp44. decent dram less ssds use hmb to bypass the hit to lifespan. some even manage to be faster without dram. this video aged like milk
Because almost nobody talks about it or knows about it. If their SSD fails in 1-2 years then they just blame it on the SSD and not the fact that it’s Dram-less and prone to early death.
because the controller on the SSD has to know where it is, so thus ends up having to swap with system RAM causing higher latency. Linus didn't mention this but DRAMless drives use SLC NAND for cache. So it's really not as big of an issue as it seems. SLC is much faster, better latency and waaaay more endurance than typical TLC NAND. Of course slower than RAM itself. But it takes over that function.
If they don't mention it, they most likely don't have it. Example: Samsung 250GB 860 EVO - 512MB LPDDR4 (mentioned) Crucial 240GB BX500 - NO DRAM (not mentioned)
Just shop on Amazon and type “dram” in the section where you can “ask questions” from previous buyers, almost every SSD on Amazon has someone asking if it has it with a “yes or no” response. I know 100% Crucial’s MX500 product line has Dram in its SSD’s.
It is more complicated than what he said. The map isn't on the DRAM cache it is on another chip entirely close to the controller while the cache now ussually 256MB, 512MB or 1024MB for SSDs will be used for write buffers and/or read buffers depending on the controller and how the controller handles the data. the 1024MB of cache per SSD seems to be only on Samsung SSDs recently with the lower amounts on everyone else so i am assuming they have their own customer controller chip The reason for the NAND Flash map to not be on the controller is it will make it so every NAND Flash drive has to be the same amount of NAND Flash chips and data size of each chip compared to having to have different controller chips for each and every SSD. The other route is to have one that can handle more than the actual amount on the drive which will slow down the speed of the SSD. So objectively having it on another chip small in size but big enough to hold the mapping for everything will be the best way. Different companies put it in different places but the majority put it very close to the controller chip. So in a flow chart it will be the request for data the controller chip the chip with the data about where it is back to the controller chip then the NAND Flash chip(s) then the controller chip then back to the connector out to the computer again. The controller chip is a big part in SSDs. The some of the newer ones do have that data chip integrated into them but the manufacturer did do the thing of having a different controller chip for every size of chips. The cost is passed along to the consumer. Mostly these are for the PCIE gen 4 x4 lane M.2 drives to get the speed they need to market them over a PCIe gen 3 x4 drive it was needed but it also doubled to quadrupled the price.
How about a modern, single NAND dramless ssd like the western digital blue sn550? Is it still that bad? Im just wondering if this is still a porblem for the single NAND type
The primary benefit use of dynamic ram in a storage drive is caching in and out of the storage whether it is magnetic, optical or solid state is irrelevant. SSD maps are always maintained in non-volatile ram. In an SSD with DRAM cache, that map is copied from nvram during startup, and used until an error is detected. Once errors are detected, if the drive does not update the map, performance will degrade If read/write speed of non-volatile ram is sufficiently fast to match the processor bus speed then caching isn't needed.
I think modern dram-less ssd uses HMB now days but has higher latency though, I currently got the P3 Plus 4TB ssd for my laptop but didn't resize it was dram-less until after I did research of it, so far I have no issues
almost anything about ssds from that period of time is irrelevant now. if you can get a larger ssd without dram with the same price as a smaller one with dram, just get the former
Jeroen Bollen yeah... But no. Most SSDs have X years commercial warranty but it expires if you use it a lot. Most of the time its the manufacturer that decide that. For instance while helping a Friend, he had an SSD out of warranty after a year because it was used a lot for big file programs. ( Animation and video mainly).
Not in every single EU contry yet. In France, it is 2 years but in some it is still 6 months. I do believe there's a project in place within EU government to limit this warranty to 1 year all across EU. But do not believe this warranty is easy to optain, even some big companies like Amazon are unwilling to comply, you usualy need a few strong emails and link (even though they absolutely know it's the law). For exemple if you bought a warranty-less hard drive, new or used, it is supposed to work with a usual utilisation. If it fails after a years, that means there were already a weakness when you bought it, and unless the seller can proove your utilisation was wrong (server for example), he should replace the drive or give you your money back.
When it's not described as having NAND-Flash based technology in it. Most non NAND are DRAM SSD.The cheaper older models do not typically have DRAM in them.l Read and write speed can dictate it also if there is no description, Comparing it to a 7,200RPM hard drive read/write speed. IF it doesn't have a buffer cache then it has no DRAM. If you can't find buffer cache or cache size in general you can check and compare typical HDD speed and SSD speed, if it's within 15%-30% faster than a HDD it's probably an SSD with no DRAM or very little. I have 3 SSD, a cheap no DRAM SSD from the old Crucial-120gb, Samsung EVO 850-250gb, and a Samsung M.2 Nand drive-500gb. each respectively are faster than the last.
Just canceled a cheap model Sandisk dram-less ssd right before it was about to ship. I am behind the times so I didn't know any better until now. Last time I cheap out.
they are worth it only for a NAS and if you are streaming large files. Dont know how good are they for long term storage or backups though. Maybe these are good for cheaper usb ssds as you usually dont do IO intensive stuff on a usb disk.
killarun4, If you read this comment to save 5 minutes of your life but still want to know *why*... watching the video wouldn't have been a waste of time lol
Aluminum. It's the older form, and if Brits are going to complain about Americans (and to a lesser extent Canadians) using newer forms of words then we have to call them out for being hypocritical.
For me it was Prager University. I had to go on a Prager U video disliking spree to stop them from popping up on my feed, but now a year later, I get constant ads from them...
A lot has changed over the years and I still feel like Linus is too prejudiced towards DRAM-less SSDs based on his recent videos, nowadays all SSDs except high end ones are DRAM-less and manage to have great performance for almost all use cases. I really think he should do a deep dive LTT video looking at DRAM vs DRAM-less drives to get a better picture.
1. You will see that the ssd's prices are high.(lol just kidding but is actually true!) 2. Check the product page on the manufacturer's website(that's the easiest way to do)
How do you tell from the product page either on the manufacturer's Website or on an online retailer whether or not an SSD has a DRAM cache? It seems that most don't display if their SSD has DRAM or not, making it difficult to distinguish between those that do and those that don't. And, it's not like you can rip a package open in the store, take off the cover, and check for a dram chip even if you know what you're looking for.
I think you look for whether it has a "cache" value listed. But I'm a bit miffed too as trying to figure out what the hell has a cache or not is not easy! When you google for "ssd with cache" or" ram", seems every damn hit is about using an ssd for an OS cache while your boot drive is a spinning platter disk. Grrr. And then I find info on how some late model SSDs with TLC (triple layer memory cells which are even slower than older MLC and SLC tech) are designed to use some of the TLC cells as a cache, but where the memory tech is single layer (SLC) memory. So, like that helps with longevity of the TLC memory and still gives a cache to work with for good speed. But I think these drives may not show a value in the "cache" specification. Grrr! So, it could be that as ssd drives tech went from SLC to MLC, to TLC , they could boost the earlier tech with DRAM as a cache, but later (TLC tech) they came up with the idea of using some of the NAND in SLC as a cache. And maybe that's just the norm now so they don't list a value for "cache" on spec sheets.
Linus its hard to know which ssd have dram even Amazon's review and spec system is broken. Like there reviews sections are linked to similar brand products which I get to realise some days ago. What to do now???
When u just got a DRAM-less SSD in the mail and watch this video
Then you've a bad time.
Just return it and get your money back. Or not.
This is Linus though, if it doesn't have a minimum of 128gb of RGB DRAM in it, its not worth it.
tru tru tru
just got mine from amazon, feels bad man
Crazy how a 240gb ssd costed 80-90 bucks back then, would be a daylight robbery in 2021!
😂😂 shit is wild
And then someone "accidentally" contaminates 6.5 exabytes and 2022 says, "90 for 240 GB? that is crazy cheap!"
It's only ok if it uses SLC which is almost non-existent now
@@NoOne-sc3fz I don't know what ya'll are talking about, SSD's aren't too expensive if you buy smart at least here in Canada. For instance, Kingston NV1 500GB is only $49.99 on Amazon. I have it and use it with a Saberent NVMe enclosure as an external drive, works well
Although that's just here in Canada I don't know about world wide
@@PainfullySoberAndUnhinged I can't remember, but I think the story about the contaminated drives had just happened when I posted that. Just joking and hoping the prices didn't go up.
The same drive is around the same price (pretax, of course) here, around 50 USD/65CAD.
What about DRAM-less RAM?
what about DRAM-less DRAM?
BUY! BUY! BUY!
swap memory
im all for SRAM DDR4 memory sticks!
😂
No cash. No cache.
240gb for 79$?
"Laughs in Post 2018"
xD
a few months ago i got an NVME 50GB for literally 50 bucks lmaooo
I got my 120gb ssd for 40$ 😭
Get Linux! Comes with free 140+ TB storage
(you'll get it later)
@@AJTheLEGOFan Laughs in 2021
Finally something i didn't know
noob
+ Duck Hold this L
I have been an SSD developer for 10 years and have worked for 3 different companies and this video was surprisingly accurate. There is a logical-to-physical address mapping table that needs to be referenced before any read or write sent from the OS to find the appropriate data. Sometimes, it can exist in a driver running on the host computer using its DRAM, which is what Fusion-io did, but it required a special driver to be made. I somewhat threw up in my mouth when I heard that there would be a flash read to first acquire the physical address before any read or write can happen. It is possible to detect when someone is performing a sequential read because you end up seeing something like a series of reads/writes coming in that goes from logical address 56 to 57 to 58 to 59 to 60 to 61, then you go, I bet the next one will be 62, 63, 64, etc, so lets just prefetch some certain number of their physical addresses in anticipation, but not true if the addresses are random.
Eric Futerfas :: No kidding
@@ericfuterfas675 fuck you
I ran a DRAM-less SSD in my system for 10 years and it still works perfectly today.
yeah mine too
I don't know what the hell is he talking about lmao. as slow as hdd???? what a joke
but hey, he is the tech dude
Just got a samsung 1TB NVMe dram less ssd and is fast enough to not even know they are slower
@@faku1350just means there are fast hdds
@@faku1350 he never used dram less ssd himself and just reading it from the script. Its been 4 years & mine works as fast as it can. Instant wake from sleep.
as long as you don't overfill
Where can I download some DRAM for my DRAM-less SSD for free?
downloadmoreram.com
XD
Methinks I found a Linux troll. :/
@@sudhanshusah2001 downloadmorewam.com
@@pineapplevlogs1267 wam?
I was honestly not aware of this thanks!
Might it be time for a 2021/2022 update to this video? Some of the newer DRAMless SSDs have apparently gotten quite good. Techpowerup rated the WD SN570 as one of the fastest PCIe 3.0 SSDs they've ever tested in real-world performance, despite it being DRAMless.
true, dont forget Samsung 980
@@hadifelani That's a different technology Nvme != traditional SSD
@@raylopez99 🙄
@@hadifelani it's true though, big difference in limitations on NVME vs SATA, and SATA is what this video was talking about.
@@Layarion I'm really sorry, but you're half correct about that.
This video's main topic is literally as the title says, it is about the DRAM on an SSD, be it on a SATA or M.2 or M.2 NVMe form factor.
Since it's an old video, they mention less about NVMe. But that's purely because back then when this video was uploaded, NVME prices are so expensive as hell, not a thing that casual consumers would buy unless they're rich enthusiasts. Nothing more, nothing less.
For example, a 1 TB of Samsung 960 costs as much as IDR 8.5 millions here in Indonesia (around USD $653.8 according to 2016 conversion). And it's *twice* the price for the 1 TB of Samsung 960 PRO. Just who in their right minds would buy that except for companies or rich enthusiasts?
You read too much, it never was about a comparison between the two form factor in the first place 🤦♂️
DRAM is important when you use your SSD as your OS drive, regardless of whether you use either SATA or M.2 NVMe SSDs
now we need a way to differentiate between SSDs with dram and those without (advertisers will definitely try as hard as possible to make it impossible to tell the difference)
Its called google.
They should be required to put the DRAM capacity in the title along with the NAND capacity.
Also it would be cool to see them put the processor specs on their official product page
It was interesting to see while working at NCIX how SSDs made by companies that used to offer 5-year warranties and MLC shifted to newer versions with TLC and 3-year warranties.
Just watched a video from NCIX 9 years ago with Linus hosting it 😅
@@losnamerales3403 I miss working at NCIX lol
I've got plenty of TLC drives all with 5y warranties and 500-800 TBW I bought within the last two years.
One of them being DRAM-less and doing a perfect job even over 40Gb USB which prevents it from using system memory as a cache.
now comes QLC with shorter lifespan and slower speed and they are marketing them as newer better tech
I've used DRAMless and DRAM SSDs side by side, gotta tell ya, no noticeable difference. Wouldn't really recommend a DRAMless one necessarily, but idk if you're setting up a media server with some left over parts or something and just need a boot drive, DRAMless seems good enough. Even like a gaming PC you don't use a whole hell of a lot. I know this is old, but Linus still has a heart attack whenever the topic of DRAMless SSDs rears it's head and it's too much.
Certain models and capacities are almost double the price, while smaller capacities are about 30% cheaper so it does make sense. I've had my Kingston 120gig for 8 years.
DRAMless will kill the SSD real quick especially when you use it for OS
my OS is writing above 50GB daily to my SSD and only after 3 years my drive life remaining is only 17%
@@loucipher7782 and in the case of laptops [or any-other-computer] where you have only *one* internal-storage-bay, having "multiple" physical-drives (ie. 1 for the operating-system, 1 for your files) isn't an option :-( .
(Yeah we could have-a-external-USB-storage-drive but that's not what-we're-talking-about-here).
@@loucipher7782 Damn what SSD you are using? I have a DRAMless m.2 SSD for my OS too and i work with 3D application on the same drive and it has only lost 2% in one year. I am planning to buy another DRAMless SSD
@@SagarGaud1 kingston a400, turns out it was false reporting by hwinfo i guess because when i install the kingston ssd software it shows 83% life remaining, not sure which is real but still its going down fast compare to my other MLC type SSD with DRAM is still at 99% after 6 years lol the DRAM portion report 150+TB write, while host write is about 50+TB
Seems like good advice, too bad a lot of manufacturers fail to mention whether or not their devices have DRAM.
That's true. My DRAM less SSD is only marginally faster than a fast HDD. And of course the speed of your secondary storage depends on your CPU.
They did that on purpose.
sneaky
@@raylopez99how is that possible?
What transfer speeds are we talking?
@@real_andrii bruh i looked at some benchmark videos of a really cheap Intenso SSD obviously without DRAM and they are not really slower than any other SATA III SSDs.
You didn't really explain why having the map stored in system ram would be slower.
The DRAM on the SSD is getting reloaded at startup, too, I presume. I doubt it's battery backed or anything.
All I can think of is possibly latency in having to go through the bus to get the RAM. But that latency is usually rather low. I mean, it's effectively the latency of the entire computer, since everything except sometimes the GPU uses that memory.
In fact, I'd like to see you do some actual benchmarks, with those that keep it in memory, those who write it on disk (why?) and those which do it automatically.
It might also be interesting to see if there are any that let the system do the wear leveling.
If it uses only the system RAM, that means that for every single operation, it needs to go from the RAM to the SSD and back. That's a lot of traveling compared to a DRAM SSD where operations can be handled internally (within the SSD) then sent to the system RAM. Unless I'm missing something?
Yep basicly, for the cost saving without a Dram cache should be avoid (as linus said)
the 2 main down sides of having the page table having to be read and written to nand can cause the drive to slow down the more data that is stored
and there is the possible issue with the drive wearing out sooner
And if you get a HMB dramless ssd you have to make sure your system ram is running perfectly (ideally not overclocked) or you could lose data best case or worst case permanently Brick the ssd when it saves bad page data back to the ssd (as it has to keep the ram HMB page table in sync with the ssd nand page table)
Just buy a ssd with Dram (don't buy any Kingston ssds with only one word in it like the spammed to death a400)
any 2 letter Kingston ssd as they have Dram on them
any MX crucial SSD (they do have power loss immunity to actually protect the page table as well as built in raid like fuction called RAIN)
Samsung SSD as all Samsung SSDs after the 850 (don't buy 840 evo unless its the pro) have a Dram on them
@@leexgx I am planning to buy a mx500 model of crucial. I will also increase the ram up to 8 gb. It would work nicely, right ? I dont play game or so on the laptop.
@@oziylmaz4728 8gb ram and 250gb is what I use as standard in systems I sell (500gb if they have a lot of stuff in old pc and 1tb for gaming )
how to check if the ssd has dram?
read up on the manufacturers webpage in the specifications of the product?
Should be in the spec sheet, but if in doubt, compare the price to a Samsung 850 Evo at the same capacity. If it's quite a bit cheaper, it's probably DRAM-less (( Also comparing IOPS or Read/Write speeds is another indication ))
Crack it open.
So the 850 Evo have DRAM? I'm planning on buying one and this video came up, now i'm confused.
850 evo DOES have DRAM. buy that one, i'm getting one also.
One thing that you forgot to mention is that most of these DRAM-less SSDs are a great choice for netbook type machines, since it actually improves battery life compared to regular SSDs and usually the performance is already bottle-capped by the machine.
@Paulius-Ratkevičius:
Now you're making me wonder if I should get a DRAM-less SSD for a Thinkpad-"X130e" netbook I'm currently looking-at.
It's 2 years since the video,
How far have DRAM less SSD's come?
Sata SSD with DRAM vs NVme without dram?
Example crucial mx500 vs crucial p2?
3 years now. Still around a $10 difference to just get one with DRAM Cache. But in terms of performance, it's not much different now in real world terms. Most Mobo now have HMB where you can store the mapping withing the cpu cache results in a bit better performance. Some newer mobo have DMA which means you have direct access to your system RAM resulting in almost identical performance to and SSD with DRAM cache. This does NOT work with SATA SSD though. Most external connections cannot use HMB or DMA so the performance is still poo on those. Crucial p2 performs just fine for most especially if they came from a HDD or an older SATA SSD.
SATA vs M.2 is about the same as far as DRAM vs DRAM less. Same trade off's with price/performance/longevity.
Interesting enough, Samsung claims their new 980 DRAM less M.2 no longer have the wear and tear problem. Not sure how true that statement is considering their gimmicky marketing record. But the fact that they back it up with the same 5 year warranty is a pretty good sign imo.
1:20
AFAIK, RAM is Random Access Memory. It's fast for accessing random memory location, but it's volatile. One power-off event and your 100% data is gone. So how does it store the memory map there?
Probably syncs up with the real memory map on the main nand itself.
Easy, move it into RAM after powering on the PC, move it back over before turning off (probably sync it up every x amount of time/if something changes). Problem is things could go corrupt, so there's likely a check for that as well which might make it even slower too.
The memory map can be stored on the nand flash and then copied over to the dram cashe when the drive is powered on just like how Windows is stored on your SSD when your computer is off and when you turn it on lots of Windows files are copied over to ram.
Last time I was this early I had to be put into an incubator for a few weeks
Sir Illuminati original.
Extra points for the effort
Wow
What?
Andrew Siegel premature birth
It will be good to revisit this topic again, I just got the Samsung 980 nvme, which is DRamless, honestly it performs like a beast, way better than the previous Sata SSD that I had.
Sata's are slower than NVME so...
@@kxrannn.g the title says SSD without regard to it being SATA or NVMe, so...
@@igoresque you are talking about a 3 year old video so...
@@kxrannn.g you are replying to a comment from a month ago that says topic should be revisited, because video with above title is not as valid anymore
@@igoresque OK DUDE
Video about robots (like boston dynamics etc) and robots with ai would be interesting.
thats the singulary talking
yeah! the one that does flips!!! oh YEAH!
Zac Randazzo Ikr, atlas is cool af
Did you know Boston Dynamics made the killer robots?
Blue Roots Denver TV Yes
honestly I didnt even know i was running DRAMless SSDs and i never had the feeling there was any bottlenecking, so unless you are a performance user it doesnt matter
I've been using 5400rpn drives for a long time and my dramless feels lightspeed
If it's envy me it doesn't matter anymore. If it doesn't have RAM on board it will use some of your system ram.
Okay okay, so a little update for you people here. Just because an SSD is DRAM-less doesn't make it really bad. Firstly it depends on the use, my Grandmother has a DRAM-less SSD (A Crucial BX500 series in fact) in her Laptop, which is completely adequate for her. Since except for windows 10 and a lot of pictures there isn't really anything on there, nor is she looking to write huge files on that SSD. The biggest file may just be a 1080p movie she wants to copy over. She just wanted to make her 9 year old laptop with a failing HDD fast again. Sure if you are looking for constant high read and writes, for exampling making video-production SSDs with DRAM will be the better option. But if you are like me and you have a gaming PC with an SSD for windows 10 and a huge and fast HDD for games, DRAM is not really a concern. Hell I knowingly bought a DRAM-less SSD for my laptop and it's completely fine for anything I do with it on the go, like office work, watching Videos or playing some games.
Just because DRAM SSDs are the best and most expensive option does not make them necessary and in term of reliability my 60GB Kingston SSDNow v300 is still going strong after 5 years now having been wiped multiple times and written and read from a lot (media drive) and it only has NAND MLC.
So don't sweat it and think you made the worst purchase decision in the world, if you need a cheap and fast SSD for normal day use, a DRAM-less SSD is just fine.
What's crazy is some brands now make hybrid cache SSDs. Which use both SLC and Dram cache. Unfortunately, they still don't explain how much cache their drives have.
I tried to see the difference first hand, I got a Kingston A400 240gb SSD & installed it in my Dell Precision M6500.
It's a 10 year old laptop with a first gen I5 with 8gb of ram. Before I had a SanDisk Extreme SSD that recently failed.
I figured that this old laptop that doesn't even have SATA III. (It has SATA II) would be just as fine with a cheap SSD.
Boy was I wrong!
I can notice a huge difference between the old SanDisk Extreme to this cheap Kingston.
Like it still better then a mechanical hard drive....
But ugh..... It really does annoy me!
It seems like it also gets overwhelmed at times when I have many processes happening at once.
It's creating a bottleneck on a 10 year old laptop......
So yeah really proves that SSD's with DRAM is the only option for me moving forward!
I'd love to see an updated video Samsung and WD both have ssd that are dramless that supposedly run just as well as dram drives and apparently nvme protocol 1.4 helped a lot with how dram less drives work I'm curious if all this Information still holds true or if dramless ssd might be an okay option now...
or it always was 🥲
Hello, Linus! I love this video so much, and I want to make sure everyone can understand and enjoy it. That's why I wanted to let you know that your captions are a little off.
At about 0:41 the auto-captions say "ran" where they meant to say "ram".
When you get a chance, could you fix that? That'll help the 360 million folks globally who rely on closed captions to understand videos. Thank you, and keep up the great work!
#Question
How do you identify that your SSD is Dram-less??
Late response, I know.
It'll often mention a "cache size" or otherwise on the product page. If not, look the model number and try to find a spec sheet. If neither make mention of a cache being present, assume it is DRAM-less.
SSD Mastersheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1B27_j9NDPU3cNlj2HKcrfpJKHkOf-Oi1DbuuQva2gT4
@@Caution40404 Thanks Man !!!
@@jeninimas @the-part "It'll often mention a "cache size" or otherwise on the product page. If not, look for the model-number and try to find a spec sheet.":
Unfortunately I’ve discovered that one can’t really count on that :-( .
Adata (and its own website) claims that the “ADATA SU750” has DRAM-cache, but unfortunately, one opened it up (a tech-savvy computer-user that bought one; I read (as-in the one that’s pronounced “red”) various reviews of this online) and discovered that it had no DRAM-chip in it.
Alot of other SSD manufacturers [that I’ve discovered when looking for DRAM-Cache-containing SSD’s online] claim they have DRAM-Cache chips in their SSD’s but actually they don’t and they just have [a small] SLC-cache and the rest [what Linus said].
The best budget SATA SSD is the crucial bx500. If you write no more than several Gb daily then it's always faster than a hard drive. It uses 3D TLC NAND which is more reliable than 2D used in many budgets SSDs (like the Kingston a400 and Gigabyte).
If you're only using SATA2 there isn't much difference from SATA3 in daily use. The only problem is that once the SLC cache runs out it will write at around 90Mb/s instead of 500.
In terms of operating system and game loading times this isn't that different from the top SATA SSDs.
SSDs without DRAM like this do have a small amount of DRAM. The main thing is the responsiveness: the bx500's is as fast as some SSDs with DRAM like the bx300 and HP s700 pro.
A budget SSD doesn't really need much DRAM if you're not writing a huge amount of data daily (like less than 10Gb). The main thing is to have 3D NAND as a DRAMless 2D-NAND SSD will wear out more quickly, much more so in some cases.
The bx500 uses 64-layer 3D NAND rather than the older 32. 64 is a little faster.
The 480Gb model has 25Gb of SLC cache, which drops as the SSD fills.
The screw holes are metal so they won't strip like on some other budget SSDs that use plastic.
Five percent of TLC-NAND SSDs fail in the first 4 years regardless of make so factor that into your budget (but then again in 3 years' time SSDs will be much cheaper). Don't erase your hard drive in case the SSD fails.
I looked at Amazon user reviews of several European countries and out of 8000 reviews there were less than four percent that were 1- and 2-stars so the bx500 is one of the most reliable SSDs out there.
If you want to clone your current drive you avoid Acronis as some people don't get on with it. Try AOMEI or Macruim Reflect free or EASEUS. Also put that clone image on the hard drive so it's ready for cloning a second time if the SSD fails.
Before getting an SSD make sure you have much more RAM than you're now using.
In the BIOS change the SATA settings from IDE to AHCI to get the proper speeds for the SSD.
An SSD will fail for another reason long before too much data is written to it. If you're using one for long-term storage then connect it at least every 6 months.
When the SSD is using TRIM ensure that software which could use the SSD is turned off.
The BX500 uses TLC-NAND but the “newer” budget QLC m.2 NVMe SSDs, like the Intel 660p, should be avoided as QLC is a step backwards. The benchmarks show they're much faster than SATA SSDs but once the SLC cache runs out they show their true nature and are ~slow~.
SSD and memory forum forums.anandtech.com/forums/memory-and-storage.47/
www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-warning-signs-ssd-break-fail/
www.hdsentinel.com software to check your SSD & hard drive before they fail (for Linux too)
I have huge Problems with the bx500, I get another one today to Test If its a hardwarefail . I have usage Spikes to 100% on a regular basis with 3000ms response times. Absolutely Bad Performance I have already Paranoia from 100% Disk usage I cant Play Games without FPS Drops every 10 minutes
So, how exactly to see if it is in fact DRAM-less? For the example SSD from SanDisk that you've used in the video I didn't notice anything mentioning it being DRAM-less.
Yea, just open the drive before you order it online...
if it doesnt mention X MB of cache/buffe in the specs, it most probably has none.
"Yea, just open the drive before you order it online..."
Ha! Exactly. Well put.
Also to add, mine has a bunch of warranty void stickers if I open it up...
check for the amount of dram the drive has itself, it shouldn't be that hard to find.
spec sheets should be at your online seller or at your online price comparison side, geizhals in europe has the feature for example.
it seems newegg is shit though and doesn't have this option to select....
it will usually be called "cache" in the options, but well nothing for newegg.
so u gotta search through the manufacturer's specs to find that stuff.
if u search the model number for the samsung ssds, u get the specs listed including dram cache, i couldn't find the same for the sandisk dram less crap, the side itself for the drives doesn't show any real specs either....
rule of thumb if u can't find important information for a product, the manufacturer probs wants to hide how crap it is.
so if u can't find the dram of an ssd either contact the manufacturer directly or move on, but u should move away already after watching a real review of the drives and i don't mean these youtube jokes, where they look at the drives and copy one file, i mean anandtech for example.
these dram less shit drives are made for oems to put crap into people's system and to scam people and uninformed buyers, that don't understand hardware and think "ssd=fast".
also look at reputable reviews and roundups of ssds.
any good side will trash dram less ssds, because they are utter garbage.
i thought tlc was bad enough and tlc is actually a bunch cheaper so it makes sense, but dram less ssds really makes me lose hope in humanity this tiny bit more.....
TBH I had no clue these existed, and I wouldn't know to find if my SSD had DRAM or not. Maybe someone can put a post on the forum a list of good SSDs at a fair price.
how do i know which models have dram/dont have dram? D:
i would also like to know this.
Yeah me too. Now I'm bugging out about the drive I just bought.
Specs and reviews.
check the spec sheet on the website you found it on or ask one of the store droids if you are buying from a big box outlet.
I too, wish to be informed with this knowledge.
This was a really informative tech quickie video!
I think you should do a follow-up to this.
It's one year later, and DRAM-Less SSDs have shown that there are some applications for them. (I was sceptical at first as well, just FYI)
1. The prices have dropped considerably, e.g. the Crucial BX500 costs about half of what a standard SSD from a reputable brand cost.
2. If used as a storage drive for something like media the speed difference isn't that significant, since you don't do a lot of random reads & writes
3. It's still better than any HDD in every aspect except price (faster sequentials and randoms, less power consumption, no noise)
So If you just want to replace the slow HDD in an older computer, or if you don't have a lot of money, but still want better than HDD performance, go with a DRAM-less SSD
Reminder: Always buy SSDs from Brands you trust, don't put one of those no name pieces into your system, they often fail very early without warning and you lose your data
Second reminder: There is no reason not to have a backup!
is the WD SN500 worth it
I'm having a hard time telling if a SSD has DRAM or not since even reputable ones seem to be taking it having DRAM for granted and not even specifying that they have it.
Look for the word cache/DRAM. If they don't specify it, they don't have it.
@@TheFourthWinchester‘s-comment/post “Look for the word cache/DRAM. If they don’t specify it, they don’t have it.”:
Unfortunately I’ve discovered that one can’t really count on that :-( .
Adata (and its own website) claims that the “ADATA SU750” has DRAM-cache, but unfortunately, one opened it up (a tech-savvy computer-user that bought one; I read (as-in the one that’s pronounced “red”) various reviews of this online) and discovered that it had no DRAM-chip in it.
Alot of other SSD manufacturers [that I’ve discovered when looking for DRAM-Cache-containing SSD’s online] claim they have DRAM-Cache chips in their SSD’s but actually they don’t and they just have [a small] SLC-cache and the rest [what Linus said].
Now even expensive ones like Samsung doesn't even have dram because it doesn't need it. Nvme drives Ken and will use system rim instead and gets dedicated reserved access to it by the cpu.
Although I trust your recommendation, my San Disk SSD w/o DRAM that I bought 3 years has served me well so far. Although that might change.
Because at that time Sandisk sell Ram-less SSD with MLC chip. (Which I bought one too.) The MLC chip itself has double speed and endurance at least compared with today's TLC chip.
And even TLC chip can offer 5-10 years endurance for an average user.
Well, how is it? Which model was it? Drop the sauce mann
I can see them being useful as a backup drive, performance doesn't matter at all when used for that purpose and it will outlive the warranty if plugged in once a month to receive an update then unplugged and stored in whatever safe location you keep it. Not everyone trusts cloud storage and not everyone has the internet connection to use it because of data caps and some of them are on a tight budget so an extra hard drive is the answer if they need a safe backup, cheaper than an external drive and those being cheaper still they sound perfect for the task.
How do I know whether my ssd has DRAM?
Allan Sh I think you would know if u use computers often enough. However, if u are concerned about it for some reason, u should be able to figure out the model of your ssd somewhere on the physical ssd (name, model number, etc.) where u can look it up online
Been asking myself that... no online store here in Brazil tells if it has or not...
They should list what ssd's have it and what don't...........
Daniel du Plessis Just look at the specs of the disks your looking at. It's not that hard.
"how to sell a 700 dollar wifi juicer" well played linus well played
I think this would be better as an LTT video with graphs comparing performance between them
@Techquickie Why are you accepting Symless' sponsorship? They are pretty disgraceful. Synergy (the first version) of their software was buggy and incomplete, and they are now asking for $50 to upgrade my Pro licence from "1" to 2. And here they are offering it for $14? I really think it's just a desperate cash grab. Really mixed feelings, as the software works great 99% of the time, but that 1% is just a bummer. And the missing features are annoying, as well -- and if you notice on their webpage, all of the interesting features are "(coming soon)". I dunno. Not convinced.
3:45 How can I tell the difference between An SSD with DRAM and without DRAM...the descriptions look exactly the same
Look for a value in spec sheet for "cache".
lol just ordered my 3rd DRAM less SSD. My first one was intel 520 180GB which I bought used and it still works to this day after 3-4 years with 100% health. Second was a WD green 120gb which is my boot drive and this 2 tb one will be my games drive.
What's a use case for a DRAM-less SSD? I'm thinking using it as a data cache in an Unraid (NAS) Server for an example.
Data cache would be the worst because they often have low bandwidth performance on par with a really good HDD. DRAM-less drives cut down on bill of material cost. So what they're good for is bulk storage. Next year we are getting QLC NAND (quad bits per cell), which is significantly cheaper than TLC (three bits per cell). It has worse endurance, worse latency, etc BUT it'll allow for cheaper high TB drives. So a DRAMless QLC NAND drive is going to end up competing with HDDs for all use cases for bulk storage. You get MUCH better energy efficiency, better I/O (especially for RAID and other resilient file systems & storage), better reliability and much higher density for servers and cases. Most storage systems use a tiered system of hot, warm and cold data. So DRAMless drives tend to be in the "cold" tier, often called WORM (write once, read many). Optane or Z-NAND will be cache (hot tier) and MLC or TLC NVMe PCIe SSDs will be the "warm" tier.
A DRAM-less almost cost half the price at the same capacity compared to DRAM ones today, and nowadays there are a lot of reputable brands too (Kingston A400 and Crucial BX500 are the first ones that come to mind). If you are looking to just revive that old laptop for high school or university, a DRAM SSD is definitely overkill imo.
I agree. Just recently threw a 30$ 240gb SSD into an old 09 MacMini, and it sails along just fine now. Admittedly for about 5-10$ more, I could've had a USED Samsung EVO, but the use case for this MacMini isn't anything critical, so I'm not worried about it.
To those who are used to speed, it might matter. To those who are used to HDD, go ahead. Any SSD is better than that.
according to my 30 min research. the downsides for dram is its volatility. it says that it loses all its memory once there's no power constantly flowing, unlike NAND which means that if I turn off my pc once, it will slow down? pls correct me if I'm wrong.
It's OK to store multimedia files on these drives, and maybe even games.
But your OS and your applications should definitely be on an SSD with DRAM.
No, im using samsung 970 evo plus without dram for system and everything is fast and fine for several years
Idk, if you wanted to just store sequential data like videos and photos then you should just go with a hard drive. I guess if you wanted to use an SSD like a flash drive but with more performance then a DRAMless SSD could make sense since using a hard drive as a portable storage device probably won't end well because if it gets dropped it's dead but dropping an SSD is fine.
this video format is good. not to long and talky
For the 2TB nvmes if you buy with DRAM it's double the price... at least where I live... so is that not worth it still?
It's also not that sucky anymore. The SN570 from WD is not as good as the SN750, but seems to be very good anyway, it even outperforms it sometimes.
just buy something like team mp44. decent dram less ssds use hmb to bypass the hit to lifespan. some even manage to be faster without dram. this video aged like milk
0:47 The legend of the Juicero will never be forgotten!
you know whats' weird? I can't find one single comparison video between dram-full and dram-less
Because almost nobody talks about it or knows about it. If their SSD fails in 1-2 years then they just blame it on the SSD and not the fact that it’s Dram-less and prone to early death.
"A whopper without a cheese". A whopper without a cheese?! How dare you?! 😂
This aged like milk
whyy
Why are there high-pitched noises starting at 2:54 and ending at 3:02?
"Sometimes it makes sense to skimp.. whopper without cheese.."
Linus you are a mad man
I love u guys. By far my favorite tech group on youtube.
So why not just use software to reserve a chunk of system RAM and store the map there?
Langdon Alger maybe latency?
Because I'm pretty sure that's not all it stores. Writes are usually cached for starters, and I assume that's where it goes.
But why can't it be stored on system ram?
So basically latency...
because the controller on the SSD has to know where it is, so thus ends up having to swap with system RAM causing higher latency. Linus didn't mention this but DRAMless drives use SLC NAND for cache. So it's really not as big of an issue as it seems. SLC is much faster, better latency and waaaay more endurance than typical TLC NAND. Of course slower than RAM itself. But it takes over that function.
I love the subtle shade thrown at the Juicero.
THEY DONT EVEN TELL IF SSD HAVE DRAM SO YEAH WE ARE HELPLESS
If they don't mention it, they most likely don't have it.
Example:
Samsung 250GB 860 EVO - 512MB LPDDR4 (mentioned)
Crucial 240GB BX500 - NO DRAM (not mentioned)
@@Suilujx Anyone here in 2020 know how to use system ram as dram?
@@nro6739 I'm 99% sure Windows does it automatically, or if it doesn't then it probably would be mostly useless anyway
Just shop on Amazon and type “dram” in the section where you can “ask questions” from previous buyers, almost every SSD on Amazon has someone asking if it has it with a “yes or no” response. I know 100% Crucial’s MX500 product line has Dram in its SSD’s.
Introducing pocket-less pants, because you can always hold stuff in your hands and save 99 cents on a $50 pair of jeans.
Exactly.
lol juicero
OMG, what piece of shit right?
love the juicero reference.
dramless SSDs aren't as fast but it's really not noticeable
An SSD with DRAM would be faster to cache it. So it makes sense to have it
yes
It is more complicated than what he said. The map isn't on the DRAM cache it is on another chip entirely close to the controller while the cache now ussually 256MB, 512MB or 1024MB for SSDs will be used for write buffers and/or read buffers depending on the controller and how the controller handles the data. the 1024MB of cache per SSD seems to be only on Samsung SSDs recently with the lower amounts on everyone else so i am assuming they have their own customer controller chip
The reason for the NAND Flash map to not be on the controller is it will make it so every NAND Flash drive has to be the same amount of NAND Flash chips and data size of each chip compared to having to have different controller chips for each and every SSD. The other route is to have one that can handle more than the actual amount on the drive which will slow down the speed of the SSD. So objectively having it on another chip small in size but big enough to hold the mapping for everything will be the best way. Different companies put it in different places but the majority put it very close to the controller chip. So in a flow chart it will be the request for data the controller chip the chip with the data about where it is back to the controller chip then the NAND Flash chip(s) then the controller chip then back to the connector out to the computer again. The controller chip is a big part in SSDs. The some of the newer ones do have that data chip integrated into them but the manufacturer did do the thing of having a different controller chip for every size of chips. The cost is passed along to the consumer. Mostly these are for the PCIE gen 4 x4 lane M.2 drives to get the speed they need to market them over a PCIe gen 3 x4 drive it was needed but it also doubled to quadrupled the price.
my local retailer doesn't specify this important information in ssd description... Thanx .. Now I know what to do!
How do you even know if a SSD you're looking to buy has DRAM...
Tetra Sky Shorter warranty, cheapest price
read reviews that analyze the internal structure.
How about a modern, single NAND dramless ssd like the western digital blue sn550? Is it still that bad? Im just wondering if this is still a porblem for the single NAND type
A burger without cheese............... GTFO, Every Burger needs cheese :) lol
The primary benefit use of dynamic ram in a storage drive is caching in and out of the storage whether it is magnetic, optical or solid state is irrelevant.
SSD maps are always maintained in non-volatile ram. In an SSD with DRAM cache, that map is copied from nvram during startup, and used until an error is detected. Once errors are detected, if the drive does not update the map, performance will degrade
If read/write speed of non-volatile ram is sufficiently fast to match the processor bus speed then caching isn't needed.
0:14 Typical Dota game, 3 Players disconnected :D
Looks like even 4 disconnects to me.
I'm learning more here than on computer science classes
Make a video on routers and how to choose which one is good according to our requirements
Pradumn Upadhyay Didn't he already do that?
i think it is already done
How about HMB? It is enough alternative for DRAM?
I think modern dram-less ssd uses HMB now days but has higher latency though, I currently got the P3 Plus 4TB ssd for my laptop but didn't resize it was dram-less until after I did research of it, so far I have no issues
I guess you could say leaving that out can cause some DRAMa
i bought the crucial bx 500 480gb and i think it doesn't have dram so is it bad because the ssd was running fine and fast
is this video still valid mr linus....? its been 5 years
It's not as important for nvme ssds
almost anything about ssds from that period of time is irrelevant now. if you can get a larger ssd without dram with the same price as a smaller one with dram, just get the former
Me seeing an Linus featured ad before a Linus featured video
LINUS: STONKS
In European Union all products always have two years of warranty.
Samsung evo pro has 5
Jeroen Bollen yeah... But no.
Most SSDs have X years commercial warranty but it expires if you use it a lot. Most of the time its the manufacturer that decide that. For instance while helping a Friend, he had an SSD out of warranty after a year because it was used a lot for big file programs. ( Animation and video mainly).
Not in every single EU contry yet. In France, it is 2 years but in some it is still 6 months. I do believe there's a project in place within EU government to limit this warranty to 1 year all across EU. But do not believe this warranty is easy to optain, even some big companies like Amazon are unwilling to comply, you usualy need a few strong emails and link (even though they absolutely know it's the law). For exemple if you bought a warranty-less hard drive, new or used, it is supposed to work with a usual utilisation. If it fails after a years, that means there were already a weakness when you bought it, and unless the seller can proove your utilisation was wrong (server for example), he should replace the drive or give you your money back.
Thanks Linus.... learned something today...
How do you know if your SSD does not have DRAM???
I have a SanDisk SSD PLUS 240GB
When it's not described as having NAND-Flash based technology in it. Most non NAND are DRAM SSD.The cheaper older models do not typically have DRAM in them.l Read and write speed can dictate it also if there is no description, Comparing it to a 7,200RPM hard drive read/write speed. IF it doesn't have a buffer cache then it has no DRAM. If you can't find buffer cache or cache size in general you can check and compare typical HDD speed and SSD speed, if it's within 15%-30% faster than a HDD it's probably an SSD with no DRAM or very little. I have 3 SSD, a cheap no DRAM SSD from the old Crucial-120gb, Samsung EVO 850-250gb, and a Samsung M.2 Nand drive-500gb. each respectively are faster than the last.
Your SSD has no DRAM
Too bad for you, its DRAM less..
I have the same SSD though. Pretty sad I don't know this before bought it
I have the same model, it died with my data on it. Good thing I have backups but I'll have to reinstall the OS.
is it that bad if you havent noticed in real life use?
Just canceled a cheap model Sandisk dram-less ssd right before it was about to ship. I am behind the times so I didn't know any better until now. Last time I cheap out.
“More powerful processors”
“This won’t be a problem for me, because I’ve one of the latest processors running at 7.66MHz”
now we are in 2021 and samsung makes a D-ram less ssd
This and power supply are two things you should NEVER skimp on.
Me, with no PSU:
ok but, how do i know if an ssd has or doesn't have dram? i see it nowhere mentioned in stores
search the model online
To save you 5 minutes of your life Dram less ssd s are not worth it!
Alex Kim thanks
they are worth it only for a NAS and if you are streaming large files. Dont know how good are they for long term storage or backups though.
Maybe these are good for cheaper usb ssds as you usually dont do IO intensive stuff on a usb disk.
but why ?
Alex Kim thank u!
killarun4, If you read this comment to save 5 minutes of your life but still want to know *why*... watching the video wouldn't have been a waste of time lol
if the prices of SSD DRAM-Less and Mainstream SSDs in Brasil wasn't abusively different, I would have bought mainstream one
Aluminum Foil
Aluminium Foil
Make the right choice
:Pinecone Al. Its all we need to know.
Plot twist One of them doesn't work
:Pinecone 2nd one?
Aluminium. Same suffix as every other metal.
Aluminum. It's the older form, and if Brits are going to complain about Americans (and to a lesser extent Canadians) using newer forms of words then we have to call them out for being hypocritical.
0:49 juicero: *chuckles*
Funny that the pre-video advertisement for me was for Vimeo.
ATM it's either the creepy guy from Udamy or Cadac store with a voiceover by a guy who's had a lobotomy.
For me it was Prager University. I had to go on a Prager U video disliking spree to stop them from popping up on my feed, but now a year later, I get constant ads from them...
History of Linus Media Group please!
A lot has changed over the years and I still feel like Linus is too prejudiced towards DRAM-less SSDs based on his recent videos, nowadays all SSDs except high end ones are DRAM-less and manage to have great performance for almost all use cases. I really think he should do a deep dive LTT video looking at DRAM vs DRAM-less drives to get a better picture.
A keyboard without RGB lighting is a feature, not a skimpy move! :D
But how do I know if my SSD has DRAM?
1. You will see that the ssd's prices are high.(lol just kidding but is actually true!)
2. Check the product page on the manufacturer's website(that's the easiest way to do)
Google the product number, or if its an m.2 form factor then just at the PCB
How do you tell from the product page either on the manufacturer's Website or on an online retailer whether or not an SSD has a DRAM cache? It seems that most don't display if their SSD has DRAM or not, making it difficult to distinguish between those that do and those that don't. And, it's not like you can rip a package open in the store, take off the cover, and check for a dram chip even if you know what you're looking for.
I think you look for whether it has a "cache" value listed. But I'm a bit miffed too as trying to figure out what the hell has a cache or not is not easy! When you google for "ssd with cache" or" ram", seems every damn hit is about using an ssd for an OS cache while your boot drive is a spinning platter disk. Grrr.
And then I find info on how some late model SSDs with TLC (triple layer memory cells which are even slower than older MLC and SLC tech) are designed to use some of the TLC cells as a cache, but where the memory tech is single layer (SLC) memory. So, like that helps with longevity of the TLC memory and still gives a cache to work with for good speed. But I think these drives may not show a value in the "cache" specification. Grrr!
So, it could be that as ssd drives tech went from SLC to MLC, to TLC , they could boost the earlier tech with DRAM as a cache, but later (TLC tech) they came up with the idea of using some of the NAND in SLC as a cache. And maybe that's just the norm now so they don't list a value for "cache" on spec sheets.
I might need allot of aluminium for uh a project.
Linus its hard to know which ssd have dram even Amazon's review and spec system is broken. Like there reviews sections are linked to similar brand products which I get to realise some days ago. What to do now???