PENSKE'S PREDICAMENT! A Look at the Penske Push to Pass Problem
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- Опубликовано: 28 апр 2024
- All the Ps in this video. Penske's Push to Pass Predicament Problem... Stuff...
Anyway, the best I can do while being ill. Picked up something from somewhere, I blame the kids my wife teaches cos those things are basically legalised germ warfare aren't they? Anyway, I hope what I'm saying is legible.
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"Why should the race always be to the swift? Or the jumble to the quick-witted? Should they be allowed to win merely because of the gifts God gave them? Well, I say cheating is a gift man gives himself."
- Monty Burns, The Simpsons.
Which episode? Need to see that
Excellent!
@@Enevan1968s8 e12
@@Enevan1968 S8E12: Mountain of Madness
-insert Jeremy Clarkson "smug face"
Rodger HAS to smack his team down for this, because it's his team. The message has to be "if Penske is racing in a Penske owned series, we can't even APPEAR to be skirting the rules, let alone flaunting them."
What his team and his drivers get away with will be the measure of how much integrity the series has for any potential stakeholders. Right now, it looks like his team thinks Rodger bought the winners circle. For the good of Indycar as a whole, Rodger has to show that he didn't, and doesn't think he did.
I appreciate the explanation. They talked about it a lot during the broadcast without ever giving an explanation of what actually happened and how they were exposed. This is so painful to watch as a Chevy fan.
Everybody cheats. It's not limited to Chevrolet. However what does look bad here is their apparent negligence WRT Penske - it's not like the other Chevrolet cars had access to it. Also the cheating was done through the CLU (Central Logger Unit) - which is the domain of the teams themselves, NOT the manufacturer which handles the normal ECU. The data would have been there though.
Ilmor supports the engines and how much the team utilizes the onsite engineer is up to them. People keep saying Chevy but ilmor tunes and modify the engines.
Also, I thought this was from allegedly left over from thermal, not hybrid testing?
@@josephbargo5024 Ilmor is Chevrolet here. They were contracted by them to make the engine.
It was available at St.Pete.
@@palm92 Everybody cheats. There is the real problem, afraid of a fair battle.
@@josephbargo5024It was basically Developer Mode left on. Team Penske and Illmor needed to test the hybrid with the P2P boost, literally changed a 0 to a 1 too do the test. When they got to St. Pete, they forgot to change the 1 back to 0. It didn't get picked up at Thermal because it was legal at all times.
I wouldn't want to be in those meetings at the Penske shop. Somebody will be on a short leash with a choke collar.
Amazingly Tim Cindric was still on the pitwall at the weekend & is still in a job...
Giggity
@@AidanMillward I used to work on the grounds of the ahop.
@@_Ben4810 he's bulletproof in that organization.
@@_Ben4810It was Developer Mode left on. He would have had to changed the boost to an extra 100 or 150 to deserve getting fired.
8:49 calling GM-Holden fans "Vauxhall fans" is gold 😂
Get better soon
Feel better, hopefully you recover quickly!
Well, P2P is only available in warm-up session and a race. It should be only 'armed' by a signal from the race control.
In Long Beach that was 'broken' and no 'ON' signal was sent to the cars for the first 10 minutes. But it was visible to all that Penske drivers spent some boost seconds somehow...😮
That is how I interpret what Marshall Pruett wrote in racer
The story was plausible until Newgarden voluntarily dug a hole for 30 minutes instead of sticking to the script
He really should have just said "Oops, sorry everyone!".
I think it’s a tough situation. I think Joe New over complicating his explanation has only inflamed the situation. With the frequency that both him and Scotty Mac push the button on restarts out of habit, it’s likely neither of them even realized anything was wrong. In their mind, “Car in front, want go faster, push go faster button, car go faster.” Whether this was an honest mistake like they say, or Cindric covering for members of Penske or GM, I don’t think it really changes the situation for the drivers. Ultimately, I think while there is obviously short term pain for the series, this will be a long term gain, as any accusations of conflict of interest should be quashed after team Penske was given the harshest penalty in 30 years of Indycar, and that the investigation was decisive and transparent.
Why would they push the button on restarts out of habit? It's never worked on restarts. Do F1 drivers press DRS "out of habit" when they are the lead car? Or on the first lap? No
3 drivers had it available, only 2 used it. I was never a Will Power fan, but this changed my opinion of him.
Same here. I have never been a Power fan because his careless actions caused him at least 2 more championships. But no having him cheat when he could have says a lot.
A true legend
Welcome to the GOAT club
If only the late & great Robin Miller was still around, he'd be winding-up Will Power so much over this...!?! 🤣
Why was he the one who ended up getting a point deduction?
Seems like a rather stupid way to cheat if you're trying to get away with it, considering how transparent it is.
Hope you feel better, Aidan!
Shades of Benneton B194...
Option 13?
Not really. Penske admited to it before they were investigated. The FIA tried to investigate and look over Benneton's software but Benneton stalled them in to the next season. People question why the FIA were so heavy handed with Benneton over minor infractions, that's why they were.
@@JSmith19858tbf it was a different time for that... scrolling down a little further was geniunely good enough to hide it... which just shows how little most understood of it all.
No, it was basically Developer Mode left on so they could test P2P with the hybrid system. Option 13 was a completely illegal system that had no business being there.
Considering that both drivers were pressing it in other races when it wasn't available then I believe it was a genuine mistake.
Especially as they reported themselves and because if they were deliberately cheating then with Roger owning the sport, he could easily have put in a loophole in the rules to allow his team to get away with it.
Yeah, if Newgarden hadn’t spewed out that rule change word salad. That gives me pause. If he’d said the same as Scott and the 29 other presses were known then it would make more sense. As it stands, I think there’s more we don’t know yet.
My guess would be some level of collusion to cheat, but once the knowledge got high enough in the organisation they turned themselves in.
Push to algorithm
Poor Will getting fined for not doing anything!
Thanks for ya time and work Aidan. Mad love from Australia, get better and god bless ya mate !!
The biggest issue is this was very clearly NOT flagged in the timing. This was caught by McLaren asking why the Penske cars had PtP at Long Beach warmup, this was not voluntary. So it was never deactivated and wasn't reporting usage to the sanctioning body. This is far shadier than this video makes it out to be.
Congrats on being verified Aidan! Although I'm also on the spectrum that "sometimes, those who aren't verified are good video creators", I guess that is because your videos are gaining mainstream attention and should be set for more RUclips revenues as well.
Keep doing quality videos. I'm sure you'll be one of the good verified video creators as well.
Something that isn't often mentioned that if the software changes didn't show that Push-to-Pass was being used, it also means that they were getting MORE Push-to-Pass than everyone else.
Always appreciate a fellow brit talking about Motorsport that isn't F1 keep up the good work man
Also, after yesterday's first BTCC weekend, are you feeling better about the improvements to the Hybrid system? Early already I know, but its looking better already
I might be wrong here but thought they said on the broadcast of the race that the first red flag was other teams at Long Beach looking at the Penske cars in first practice and going 'hang on a minute....'. Not that it really matters as you have a single team having software intended to bypass the system used to manage this particular and two experienced drivers who *just happened* to press the button when it's not done anything for the last forever?
Oh and then you have Newgarden, who really hasn't made friends this weekend, saying they thought it was "a rule change". Team Penske. The team that's got a really good claim on the 'most professional Indycar team' title thought the rule book had changed when it hadn't. Yeah, no, this isn't a mistake or coincidence, this was absolutely deliberate and IMO it's ridiculous that they only got DQ'd from the one race. At the very least should have been chucked from Long Beach too as they ran the cars with this software active and a whacking big penalty to the team dished out as well, preferably a points deduction rather than a fine.
It's a good video and a good analysis. I hope you're feeling better soon.
Roger has seen what happens when you have an extreme competitive edge. He ruined Can-Am in with an overpowered car to the point that everyone left the series. He’s also been apart of two CART splits. The first also being linked with some teams having more of a competitive edge with engines. With the state Indycar is in currently I do find it hard to believe he was deliberately cheating.
And all that has left him broke and penniless....
Never really got Indy car and it's not exactly easy to follow over here, I used to check the odd result when Franchitti was driving and winning. 😊
I think Roger is well regarded, and him buying the series a few years ago was cheered as a great move. It put the series into trusted hands. I think the other team owners still feel the same way. He has integrity (or at least the appearance of integrity). Outsiders simply can't know.
Hope you feel better soon
Hope you get well man. Take care
Sorry to hear about ill health issues. Thanks muchly for taking the time to put this together despite the fact. Your content is always appreciated.
Cheers from Canada.
Been hoping you'd put out a video with an understandable explanation and walkthrough of events. I'm trying to learn Indycar, but am still at the stage where for the life of me I can't grasp who's on which team except for occationally the McLarens and had trouble finding Palou with a green car, lol.
I did understand enough from the commentary to draw the simile towards 'option 13' with a code that shouldn't have been available but was - or apparantly so, but the rest of it went straight over my head. Now I have a better grasp of it, and hopefully I'll learn how to find Grosjean in 77 (easy to remember) within seasons end.
People who would, themselves, do something like this will project their own psychology onto Roger Penske and assume he cheated intentionally. People who operate honestly, themselves, will know that Roger Penske would _never_ approve of something so stupid.
Get better soon!
Very interesting video. I think you have a good take on what happened. He couldn't afford to be involved in deliberate cheating.
Puts me in mind of the Benetton ‘option 13’ cheating scandal for one of Schumacher’s championships.
Now thats an Unfair Advantage.
I find it intriguing that of all the people, its Newgarden and Cindric that are being looked at the most. It wasn't helped that while Scott Mclaughlin and Will Power immediately addressed the issue on Twitter, Newgarden and Cindric waited for a press conference just to pour out some crocodile tears, which then got Colten Herta to call Bullshit (Seriously, that was his actual words). There's an increasing sense that its the field versus Newgarden now.
I find Colton's response particularly telling because Colton is (was?) friends with Newgarden. He appeared on a couple of episodes of Bus Bros apparently just because he happened to be hanging out at Josef's house during filming.
I must admit I’ve been on a few dates where I wish I had a push to pass button.
So if 3 drivers could use it, 2 of them did except Power it's because they were aware that it wasn't allowed.
I do think they probably did forgot to take that code away, They mightve thought they could get away with it for one race.
Or- Power didn’t use it on the restarts because the knew it wouldn’t work.
There’s a bit of benefit of doubt to apply with it.
@@AidanMillward That's the other side indeed. We do need to consider these guys are used to do the same things again and again.
Maybe the only weird part is that the team didn't reallze sooner that they were activating it.
Fair reporting
1:40 The Daniella Westbrook.
Sometimes the specs shit on everyone, sometimes you spec yourself.
So Aidan has turned into a Werewolf. . . . with a Chinese menu in his hand
Walking through the streets of Soho in the rain
The Drivers were using P2P when they clearly knew it shouldn't work. Sounds suspiciously *NOT* a mistake. That said, I would be shocked that Roger himself knew about it r condoned it given the stakes involved. He is a very bright guy. Yes, every owner, mechanic, driver, etc wants a winning advantage but he's not stupid.
That’s the only part I accept! Before the info on Newgarden’s previous P2P failed presses I heard Scotty say that and thought that’s plausible, what with muscle memory, instinct, call it what you will.
I tend to believe it was unintentional, because it would be way to easy to detect from the recorded data and the broadcast coverage. Other drivers would notice as well, and teams are not bashful about ratting each other out. Although, Newgarden's excuse that he thought the P2P/restart rule had been changed is the world's worst cover story.
Bobby Rahal said it best. Roger didn't know and he is likely pissed
I doubt Roger knew about it. He'll have to take action about it though. The people responsible need to have some kind of recourse and they all better hope nothing in violation of the RIL rules happened at Long Beach.
5:30 this information here is interesting because I find myself pressing random buttons on my steering wheel as well during sim races even if they do nothing. Kinda makes Scott McLaughlin’s story a little more believable but Newgarden man he taxed it lol
At least for the tire pressure scandal that team reported themselves during the race. That felt like a real engineering mistake that the racing management wouldn’t tolerate.
Too much talk of pushing on past their difficulties at Barber and not enough humility from the two drivers who cheated. Weird time in IndyCar, where Will “here’s the wall” Power is the paragon who stuck to the rules 😹
The bigger issue with that Bathurst win is that the car was disqualified from the top 10 shootout. Hence should have started 10th, not first. Whether Scott would have won it from 10th is unknown, but Waters being given pole is the biggest slap in the face in Bathurst history
Did Roger know? Doubt it. Did the team know? Probably. Could be an accident if they drove the 1st race and discovered it. But to show up a month later for the 2nd race with the software change still in place says they knew. What can Roger do about it? He can grant the Mid Ohio Region PCA their HPDE date at Indy. Would go a long way to smoothing things over with me. Get well soon.
And don't forget, when listing off Penske's accomplishments, that he was, for a short period, an F1 entrant who, in his second full year as a constructor, won the Austrian GP. It must have been bitter sweet when Ulsterman John Watson took the winning checkered flag as only one year earlier his close friend and driver, Mark Donohue, was killed at the same event.
I have never liked Roger owning a team and the series. Just the precieved conflict of interest would be enough for me to take a step back. I do believe that Roger had no idea this was happening. Thanks for the explanation I knew they had used P2P on restarts but I didn't know how it was found out. This leads me to more questions like with the metric ton of data coming from the cars how was it not immediately spotter. Or why is the engine management software not compared or do a hash check during inspection.
Ross Brawn's book made it sound like he'd been kept in the dark with quite a few cheating things, Roger could be the same.
I don’t think Roger Penske is letting anything slide because it is his own team; people were concerned about favoritism like this from day one, but when the Chevy engines were down on power at the first Indy 500 under his control, he didn’t give them a boost like the series has done in the past.
That said, Penske has pushed the limits of the rules in the past, ranging from creative interpretations to straight up cheating. In the 60’s he had his sports car team soak the cars in acid to thin out the body and reduce weight, and later rolled a legal car through tech inspection, then quickly changed the number and rolled it through again. Roger isn’t a saint.
Get well soon Aidan!
I must say I am a Penske fan. But I do recognize that they did the crime so they should do the time. But I have a question, if your not allowed to use the push to pass for the first lap of a restart. Then why doesn't indy car control that. Like they turn it on after the first lap, and turn it off at a caution.
Given Penske's history with rule bending such as having 20ft fuel towers and acid dipped cars in the Trans Am days, i don't believe for a second that he's completely innocent or clueless. He may not have given a specific order in this case, but he's almost certainly developed a culture in his teams of finding advantages by any means necessary.
Penske? Cheat? No never.... 😂😂😂
9:13 "It will soon enough blow over because Indycar isn't the worldwide sport that Formula One is, so it will be able to move on." I think the more accurate comparison is, "It'll blow over soon enough because Indycar currently finds itself in one potential (POTENTIAL!) teams vs. management controversy, while Formula One is almost constantly in a state of three-way civil war among the sanctioning body, management, and teams." I know from watching David Land that Indycar has a good number of problems right now, but no one is intentionally digging graves for anyone else on a regular basis over there, so organizationally that's a big improvement over F1.
Those cars looked like they didn't need push to pass to win this weekend or any race they did win. I'm glad Indy Car isn't playing politics like you know f1 would
At least with this there is no reason to play politics.
How many times when you are driving your car do you press buttons that don’t actually do anything, knowing they don’t effectively do anything (e.g., the cancel cruise control button, the unlock shifter button)? Food for thought…
Missed opportunity for added alliterative appeal:
Penske's Predicament: Peeking Penske's Push to Pass Problem
Yeah, " I didn't know" Doesn't quite cut it these days. Indy cars are good, it needs more manufacturers, more road tracks, and LESS obnoxious American TV Ads-especially the Drug Ads and Insurance Ads. And more female drivers to change the demographics a bit. Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
Most people cheat (or break rules) in some way or another every day. This is the time we live in. A friend who is in law enforcement told me once that on average people break 3-5 laws per day in some way or another. I speed every day and know that I have a buffer because rules enforcement does not want to enforce the rules as strictly as the law requires because they do not have the resources to do it. Perhaps that is what Newgarden and Mclaughlin were thinking. Maybe they thought No one will know because the rules enforcers do not check it and do their job postrace.
From what I have heard about Penske I would think he put everyone on notice that their jobs are on the line (likely except for Power). I can see him firing almost everyone who knew something. No one will ever know the full truth on intent except for Penske, Cindric, the crews and drivers.
The biggest issue to me is the lack of follow up from IndyCar in their process of post-race inspections. What do they do? How do they perform post-race follow-up? Whatever they have been doing apparently needs to be cleaned up.
Now, if IndyCar had any marketing chops at all they would use this incident as a way to make some controversy in the sport and get people talking. Make Newgarden a villain and hated by fans like he is apparently not liked in the paddock. I was surprised no one tried to take him out during this race.
DEBRIS, DEBRIS, DEBRIS. No surprises here for any Aussie race fans after that Bathurst win. If Roger wants to do something to clear the air - sack Cindric who also oversaw the Bathurst Debris call.
As an alabamaian, roll tide lol
I think the team tested the liberties they could take with their boss being series owner, thinking their boss would defend them. Perhaps Chevrolet played a part in influencing them, perhaps not. I doubt that it's Roger's fault. The team got it wrong.
There’s a grand idea get rid of all that extraneous nonsense and just give them 900 hp engines and let them do what they do makes sense to me. Better yet change the engine formula so it matches what they can usein IMSA You have two series for the price of one not a bad idea.
IMSA engines are far larger then engines used in Formula cars, and if Honda is already complaining about cost, going back to CART power levels will just drive them out faster.
To me, this really gives IndyCar a black eye. And I think it's been swept under the rug at this point. I watch ed the race in Alabama and everybody seems ready to just move on from this. It's really bad because it involves Penske who is the godfather of IndyCar and the Indy 500.
The od: Flavio/Walkinshaw "Benneton" defence!
Congrats on 100k subs
awesome video, i agree that Penskie did not know after all why would you cheat when you own the series? since you'd be giveing people more excuses to quit or for others to say "Let's go race in x,y or z sereis instead then"
RP does not strike me as the sort of guy who would resort to cheating. I mean, he really does not need to become the Donald Trump of motorsport!! He would have far too much to lose and it would tarnish his "good guy" reputation. I like to think that behind the scenes the "good guy" is wielding the big stick and telling his guys "wtf do you think you are doing to me. Sort it out or else" If not then he is not the guy I think he is, but then I really know very little about him and could be hopelessly wrong. Hope you feel better soon Adrian. I feel like poo and am still having to work also!
Random pic of Chip Gannasi there.
They knew about before the race but didn't do anything.
Also I think every team had his but Penske got caught using it.
The line of code is used by Honda and Chevy for testing since IndyCar isn't there to signal the system to turn on. Team Penske forgot to reset the system before St. Pete.
@@danielhenderson8316 I still believe every team was doing the same thing. If your not cheating your not winning
If it isn’t available on the first lap, why are they pushing the button? Doesn’t seem right. It’s a system that only allows for so much use, you wouldn’t be using it without thinking about it.
Might be a placebo thing.
Hello Aidan: Get well soon.
From my understanding, only 1 car from a team was used for hybrid testing. How would that software tweak be left on all three cars when it should have only been on one?
It was copy/pasted into all of the engine as normal, but they forgot to change the 1 that left the system on back to a 0.
"If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". - Eddie Guerrero
¡VIVA LA RAZA!
So this is essentially Penske´s version of "Option 13", i guess...
No. Option 13 was a completely illegal system while this was Developer Mode left on.
What I don’t get is if Penske didn’t know about it. Is there a power struggle or a rift in Team Penske. Chevrolet, drivers along with team members absolutely knew what they was doing & someone in Penske who may not of known called it out. It’s all very strange
They got caught cheating then won the very next week. Everything went according to the script
Am I the only one who got big time “option 13” energy with this?
More IndyCar content! 👍
To me, it's too dumb. It is not respecting the rules. But I also think it got to be a sort of accident. The kind of accident that are really incompetent and looks bad on an entire organization.
I cant get past Newgardens name. lol. Keep getting flashbacks to Microprose GP3 and a certain John Newhouse. lol.
Any other team would have been thrown out of this years championship. Because Penske owns the series that just going to happen.
Time Mr Penske was interviewed and for him to explain why his team shouldn’t be banned for this years series for blatant cheating.
Hey aidan millward remember the first time when formula one raced in valencia in 2008???
7:02 Gavin Ward had been at Penske before going to McLaren, which adds some weight to his comments...
So power didnt use it but was the only one who had a points deduction?? Or have i misunderstood the pens?
Power didn’t use it but was still docked points for carrying it.
The others were DQed from podium positions so lost more points. Power also inherited a podium from their DQs so ended up only losing a net 2 points.
@@AbiSaysThings makes sense. I didnt watch the race just saw 2 DQs and a points deduction and saw the deduction as the worst of the 3.
I don't think that Penske knew about it. He stands to lose more (being the owner of the series) than he stands to gain from winning a race. Especially when the data is available to be seen by everyone. The team had to have done this on purpose. The driver being on the button for 9 seconds when the push to pass is only supposed to last for 2 had to be noticed.
It was 9 seconds cumulative over three starts apparently.
@@AidanMillward AH, OK. That makes a bit more sense.
The whole series reeks of a conflict in interest. Penske owns his racing team, the engine supplier that half the field uses and the whole goddamn series.
The rich can do whatever they want. It's a sad state of affairs.
Cheating is a "problem", yeah that is true.
Why can the teams manipulate this system??? Why can't it be turned off by the race control for restarts, maximum uses, etc...I can turn my furnace on from my phone, is this a technical challenge for this series? 🙄
Rodger Penske has never cheated, he wins by being tough and smart. So I don't believe it was him, and he did the right thing by accepting the punishment without whining, etc.
However someone knew.... To suggest that the driver/spotter/pit tech didn't know the rules, or that they didn't realize that the car was putting out an extra 50HP is pretty hard to swallow.
IMO it does reek of stupid mistake, because nobody has the story straight and it was so easy to see and go "ey, why their push to pass going down?" - like it isn't a smart, or even necessarily super useful cheat, vs something giving your car more power, or changing the timer to be slower, etc. Something harder to point out.
If this was planned, I assume they would tell the drivers like "here's your story" or whatever.
Was their Push-to-Pass going down? Or were they getting extra?
No you mean the organization that's been caught cheating and almost every major motorsport they've been in cheated in a sport that they own wow I'm so surprised. I hope you can see the sarcasm through the screen
Debris, debris, debris.
And he had an illegal engine which saw him stripped of pole at the same Bathurst.
Corruption and it doesn't appear to be coming from the very very top of the team
Personally, it seems to me like a bit of a conflict of interest to have Penske be both the head of a team and the owner of the sport.
Isnt this penske doing penske things? Were they not famous for this in transam since the 60s
I feel Cindric is going to be in the hot seat when they all sit down for "come to Jesus debrief".
Newgarden sounded like a goof in his presser when he brought in the race at "Thermal", especially when Thermal happened before St. Pete. Know when the STFU Josef. The presser went on way too long and Newgie should have bailed much earlier.