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I recently heard someone say that we shouldn't judge people when they're desperate and at their lowest. We should judge them by what they choose to do when they are comfortable, when all their own needs are met. Do they choose to help others? Or do they choose to selfishly hoard resources and make life worse for everyone else
The problem there is if we look historically 99% of humanity would be in the latter category. Be it our biological predisposition to in-group out-group thinking, or our societal conditioning towards a capitalistic "I've got mine" mindset, whatever the root cause or combination thereof the result in the same - the vast majority of us are selfish. The uncomfortable conclusion then is 99% of people doing the judging would be victims of their own judgment. How valid are those judgments then if we fail to live up to our own standards? I have no answer.
@@kyleyoung2464 you’re literally part of the top 1% of global equity. This is a cliche rebuttal, I know, but painfully relevant. You are selfish because you exist in a world that doesn’t give you the ability to not be. You have more than a large portion of the human population will ever have, and you could measurably improve 100s, if not 1000s of lives by donating your time and money to the severely impoverished across the globe. But you don’t, and you won’t. You want the comforts you have and while others might have more than you, you have yours. This isn’t an admonishment against your character, I’m not judging you for not choosing to give up all your personal wealth and devote yourself to purely altruistic pursuits - my point is exactly that though, who among us COULD judge? Only a fraction of a fraction donate their time to helping the homeless every weekend, and that’s a relatively low barrier to entry. We simply don’t measure up to our own lofty expectations for our fellows and if that’s the case, if so few of us are worthy, what do we do?
@@SantitariumHaze except you're not taking all variables into consideration. people who end up having a lot of money and power are people who do so by immoral means from the very start. you don't become a billionaire by being charitable and helping people. so your conclusion is incorrect. your second comment is equally wrong, most people are one paycheck away from being homeless they do not have the time money or energy to help others all the time
I think for me one of the most informative moments of the Joker in The Dark Knight was when he did a whole speech about how people are schemers with their schemes and how that was bad and how he was the antidote to that, while literally being mid-scheme himself.
Yeah huge agree - he rants off at Harvey and like, Harvey buys it because he's been completely mentally destroyed. The audience isn't really meant to buy it.
@@TheHopperUK yeah the scene is really just showing how smart and manipulative the joker is he's not crazy, he knows exactly what he's doing and he has a careful plan unlike he's claimed the entire movie it's pretty genius
We've been stuck in that mindset for a decade now and all we've gotten for it is the absolute worst Superman films and also the boys? Invincible is cool at least
not that it's relevant to your thesis BUT I don't think the ending of American Psycho implies that the lawyer is fabricating an alibi for Bateman, I think the joke is that all the Wall Street guys are so similar that the lawyer genuinely thought he had been with Bateman the previous night🤓
Wasn't that the stated intention of the book? That these people (Wall-street big shots) were so vapid and self-obsessed that even a serial killer in their midst would go by unnoticed because nobody cared about anyone but themselves.
It's intentionally vague - is it the recurring joke like you noted that all the wall street guys look the same (the lawyer mistook Bateman with someone else already in that same conversation), is he making an alibi for his client, or was it all in Patrick's head since his killings get more deranged and obviously fantastical as the movie goes on? Ultimately it doesn't matter which it is in a sense, Patrick's still a "spineless wimp" that nobody notices or cares about at the end of the day, despite him desperately wanting to be seen as a cool serial killer guy.
I can’t believe I’m getting a joker character study from my favourite video essayist. when I was 16 I wrote a wildly popular batman x joker cavity search fanfiction. it still does fkn numbers, my crowning achievement. just thought someone should know
The "meta-commentary manic pixie dream girl" I feel like is a new way for writers to try to get away with writing female characters that don't pass the Bechdel Test Lmao
it also mirrors me playing mgs2 at launch as a child. i played all the way to the end expecting it to switch to snake eventually. i was also way too young to understand the speech from the colonel back then i just remember being super confused
I remember getting a fun little detectice game for fhe ds only to find out in terms of story it is only 1/4 of the story and O could beat it the day I bought it
Jack Saint you fool. When I was 18, I knew so something was wrong with the previews of Rayman 4 when it's title changed to Rayman Raving Rabbits, and they were talking about it pivoting to minigames for a Wii only version and away from traditional platforming. So I decided to wait until the reviews came out, which confirmed my suspicions, and I never bought the game. Am I saying that 18 year old me in 2006 was smarter than child Jack Saint? Yes I am, the fool should've waited for the reviews.
Hear something interesting, i was introduced to Rayman througu Raving Rabbids 2, and just thought he was a part of the Raving Rabbids games. It wasn't until i got older that i realized there were actually Rayman specific games
look when i was 8 i loved that game, brainrotted me in a pre-minion society. and now I'm drunk responding to a comment on jack saint Jonkler 2 review.im a good example of success via Rayman Raving Rabbids
If anyone thinks the Joker’s backstory in The Killing Joke is true….they didn’t read The Killing Joke. It all but screams “The Joker is an unreliable narrator and this is a lie” The Joker not having a canon backstory is a pillar of his character. It’s like never seeing Master Chief’s face. If you do, it’ll ruin part of the mystique…. (Oh wait…)
The issue with saying this is the fact that alot of modern comics treat it as the canon origin (despite the fact that the series wasn't even meant to be canon thus the ambiguity of whether bats kills jokes at the end)
The "Red Hood" falling in a vat of chemicals was the canon backstory until Killing Joke took that and built on it and made it more powerful and now its "canon" in peoples minds that there is no Joker canon.
Go a couple of steps further and reject the concept of canon altogether. It just about takes the top spot over “weed” as a method of making all your engagement with fiction more entertaining.
@@testest12344 The fact that he gives 3 seperate backstories that are all mutually exclusive. Obviously at least two of them are a lie, or at least imagined. The subtext is that it's just as easy for all three of them to be as it is for the minimum two.
I genuinely can't express how grateful I am to finally get a review that isn't just: Hollywood conspired to create a bad movie in order to get one over at Joker 2019 fans.
This whole plot (especially with Lee) is the exact same plot of a 90's comic. Some sort of therapy actually works on the Joker, and he becomes "normal" for a while. Harley actually HATES him like this, and she kidnaps him, and forces him into the vat of acid again, even while he's protesting and begging her to care about him as he is. I remember reading it and it made me see Harley in a brand new light, as a villain and not a tragic hero. I honestly really like the plot because it's how she was portrayed before the 2010's rebranding of her as DC's Deadpool.
Is there any way to find out which comic you’re talking about? I would be genuinely curious because this sounds eerily similar to what happens with Joker and Neo Joker in Batman: White Knight, but I haven’t heard of a story dealing with the same concept before
@Vulgarth1 not as a tragic anti hero like "mad love," as in her mainstream popularity boom. She was always a popular breakout hit, but around the nu52 she started to become a very very mainstream anti-hero type, even replacing Babs in Birds of Prey.
Look up Folding Ideas video of "weird kids videos", it's very weird and interesting. The issues with scary and weird kids RUclips videos is called elsagate now because of this sh
My Adventures with Superman, and hopefully James Gunn's Superman, are a breath of fresh air from the "evil Superman" trope, and now there's been a push in wanting a return to the fun, supernatural Batman stories.
I think James Gunn's DC-verse might be our best hope of moving out of this deconstructionist, overly ironic era of pop culture, because despite his tendency towards snarky, pseudo-edgy humor, James Gunn's work is for the most part very earnest and hopeful in its messaging. He's great at telling stories that aren't overly saccharine and sentimental, but not drenched in cynicism either, and I think that's what audiences are really looking for from their escapist media right now.
"Lady Gaga and Joaquin Phoenix doing a film" I definitely would have gone to see that film 🤣 Your mum is a marketing genius!! Someone get her to hollywood!
I haven’t seen the second joker (or the first) but I feel reflexively defensive if it because I think the idea of making a joker sequel a music absolutely hysterical and I love it
Yeah except it's a half baked musical. I've never seen a more boring musical on screen. They wanted to piss off the filmbros who circlejerked over the first one and yet didn't commit to the vision. the cowardice is why half the audience (those who went to see Joker 2 BECAUSE its a gaga musical) hates the film
I haven't seen either movie either, but I'm reflexively inclined to agree simply because I've always found the Joker as a character to be an irritating theater kid personality and am feeling vindicated at the idea of him obnoxiously breaking into song to everyone else's annoyance.
i liked the movie a lot but that's such an unpopular opinion right now that i generally don't engage with conversations about it. i was kinda surprised that the majority opinion was that it was *so bad* tbh. yeah i would've put original music in if i was the director but the songs they chose made sense generally and i was engaged the whole time. totally get that some people just don't like it btw. that's valid, but i think saying it's the "worst movie of the year" or whatever is probably hyperbole and i think people should actually watch it themselves instead of hearing that it's bad and deciding to not watch it
32:57 You saying Joker isn’t a person, but a verb makes a lot of sense for me, being brazilian. Since the first movie came out in 2019 the word for joker “Coringa” was verbalized into “coringar” and gained popularity meaning to lose sanity, lose control or “escape”.
Speaking of Jokers and American Psycho, my two favourite roles Jared Leto has ever done are in American Psycho and Fight Club. Because he gets beat up. Anyway enjoyable video and insight as always JACKSAINT, and not less enjoyable just because I finished FD Signifier's video in the last few days lol.
How are you on his role in Girl, Interrupted, where he's drafted to Vietnam off screen, whereupon we can presume he experienced incredible man-made horror?
Saw Joker 2 with my mom. She never saw the first and genuinely liked it. I myself only knew the first film through clips and nerds at my husbands gamestore explaining it at me against my will, but I also liked the second Joker film. All this to say : If you don’t have ANY expectations going in, Joker 2 is gonna be a pretty good time.
I was not going to watch it bc I don't like musicals but I just skipped through them bc I had to see what all the fuss was about and honestly it is no where near as bad as people make it out to be imo it is just a depressing and predictable continuation of the first movie bc it is a gritty realistic look at how the final chapter for the first movie would play out but I think people are so upset by the film bc they were expecting some antihero bonnie and clyde romanticization and that is not what this film is I would say the movie is mid, I would not pay to see it, and if you like musical numbers or can skip them, then this movie does have some interesting bits how harly only cares about joker, doesn't care about the person aurthor how the kid that idolizes joker gets to steal the unjust death scene as the real martyr of the film and how aurthor's friend gary steals the spotlight with a great performance as he is crossed examined during the trail this is not a vigilante antihero tragic romance film joker is a bad person who did bad things and has to face the consequences for that he is isn't the martyr character who sacfices himself to expose a corrupt system, he is corrupted himself joker is the villain who let one bad day turn him into a mass shooter, we all have bad days though, just most of us handle it like adults I would say if nothing else is on, it is watchable, but not something I would recomend going out of your way to see unless you enjoy musicals bc the plot is just realistically depressing and predictable.
I love when people say "keep politics out of media" when that is literally a fence sitting statis quo warrior position of "first they came" proportions. Having the luxury to ignore politics is a political act. One that upholds the current political position through inaction. Im literally only commenting this to leave a comment, though, so wtf do I know 🤷🏻♂️
It's a suggestion for a compromise, one where we can all get to enjoy movies, games etc. despite having different political opinions. It also comes from a position of having seen stories be told not for telling a good story but for pushing politics and how it has a strong tendency to ruin the stories of the next sequel to a beloved franchise or some extremely expensive project, and it's a damn shame when that happens. And even poor people can get tired of politics and want to sit down with friends and family and just relax to a good movie, and they don't like it when what should be a good time gets all political. "Having the luxury to ignore politics is a political act. One that upholds the current political position through inaction." So everyone who just wanted to watch a movie without politics is a centrist and a traitor to every political cause except the status quo? No matter whatever else they do when not watching such a movie? That's obviously absurd.
@@odinsrensen7460 when most people say "keep politics out of media" what they actually mean is "i don't like PoCs/women/queers, only make media about straight white men forever" let me ask: what things do you consider to be "political"? what does "pushing politics" mean to you?
This is the only Joker video I will ever watch, partially because it shows an understanding of art as more than a vehicle for delivering messages which are then to be easily sorted into "woke" or "reactionary" depending on whether you liked it or not.
While Im very much an antifan of the joker duology, the performance from Gary Puddles actor Leigh Gill during that court scene legit makes me want him to get a supporting actor nomination cause it made my heart hurt
@@brianmattei7134 just watch that court scene tbh, i laughed at phoenix performance cause it was so silly then just got emotional whiplash from Puddles being so damn sad to see. It was tragic I forgot how bad he had it.
People gotta treat it like every other DC au: a version of the character you can like or dislike alongside other versions of him. Plenty of characters did stuff in "Injustice" that they wouldn't in "canon." "DCeased" literally exists. Sometimes you gotta say "this storyline was really compelling and viewed this character from an angle I agree/disagree with in different ways, and that's great."
Oh holy revolving Jebus, the only things more aggravating than arguments about 'official canon' are arguments about 'official multiverses'. I am so absolutely sick to death of claptrap about multiverses, about what 'officially' happened to this character or that character, and this Disney-driven desire to syncretize and homogenize every single popular story into one giant 'official multiverse canon' that can be tightly controlled by publishing companies. We're treating pop culture as if it's fundamentalist religion, arguing like a bunch of Rabbi over what counts as 'doctrine' and what is 'heresy', while the copyright lawyers laugh all the way to the bank.
agreed! both the straightforwardly negative reviews and the reviews that were like "heh, stupid fanboys, obviously Todd Phillips hates you and thinks you're stupid for relating to the Joker" made me it sound like shit. but jack makes a good case for it!
I only kind of liked Joker, and I thought FaD was fantastic. All the meta-commentary on the original aside, it's just a very tragic story of a mentally ill guy being destroyed by fame.
I didn't really like Joker. It had a bunch of serious and dark subject matter, but they didn't seem to add up to anything interesting or poignant, the main goal just felt to get "serious movie vibes" while not really understanding its inspirations. It's the kind of "morally gray" where it just had nothing to say. For that matter it did feel mostly like an appeal to the sort of comic book fan who wants to see their favourite franchise get validated as "mature" without actually having their inner teenager who thought the Joker is really cool actually being challenged. From that perspective this kind of weird sequel seems pretty appealing, but I'm afraid it's just going to end up like "you don't get it" and then again having nothing much to say.
I just finished replaying MGS 2 yesterday. I never thought I'd be the guy pausing the video early to go down to the comments section and be mad before bothering to finish the video, but here we are. It's the best game in the series, I've been parasocially betrayed, I'm unsubscribing forever, etc.
I feel like the movie wants to desperately point out how this "Joker" power fantasy they set up in the first movie could never happen and makes the character look powerless because that's how the real world works and anyone thinking that this could happen to them is delusional.... except that it falls flat because the first movie was also showing that while the Joker was a murderer, it was in part a reaction to the way society treats people with mental illnesses.
you could interpret the movie as an attempt to make that message unmistakeably clear, so the people who would actually look up to the joker (or call themselves sigma male) get it. because there are people who didnt understand the first movie beyond that powerfantasy. i do agree the movie is pretty bad because of it tho
It's moreso about how violent outrage doesn't actually make the fundamental problem better. Arth gets a movie, an adoring crowd of fans and a chance to just go into hiding but not a solution to the issues inside him. His actual condition will never be improved by that crowd in front of the courthouse.
The thumbnail made me expect an essay about Hunter x Hunter and Disco Elysium, not Joker 2. Which if done on purpose, brilliant job having the perfect thumbnail to encapsulate the feeling of disappointment when you don't get what you were expecting. That said I enjoyed the essay otherwise, even if the thumbnail had me feeling mislead.
I only trust Jack Saint's Joker 2 review. A little sidenote, "Batman the Animated Series" (BTAS) struggled with the Joker's origin story, as well. I believe BTAS first described him as being a failed comedian turned criminal. In the BTAS movie, "The Mask of the Phantasm", Joker's origin was that of a mob hitman. It wasn't until BTAS was rebooted as "The New Batman Adventures", that the showrunners chose to stick with the canonical (but slightly reworked) "he fell into a chemical pool" origin story.
Jack you’ve outdone yourself: you made me want to watch Joker 2. I probably still won’t, but I might replay Metal Gear Solid 2, and that would still be a win for you. Serious point, I think you’re absolutely right that we are done with deconstruction. Teacher on my MA a couple of years ago talked about the “postmodern hall of mirrors” and how we’re all still trying to get out of it. Hell, 30 years ago David Foster Wallace was calling for a “new sincerity”. I have a strong feeling that we are searching for ways to do art that can instil some hope and some belief in a future that won’t be totally miserable. Maybe something has to change in the real world before art can give us that, or maybe not, dunno. In any case I think this may be your best video yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts again.
This is the first time in my life I've seen someone who went through the same traumatic "this is not my rayman" experience as I did. Thank you for finally validating my feelings ❤
I enjoyed this, but maybe I'm just being dumb. I don't think you answered your Mum's entirely valid question. *_"Why didn't they just call it something else?"_* Cause like, the evidence is out there, that's what was planned. *A movie about Arthur Fleck, without the DC elements was essentially rejected. So they tacked on the DC stuff to sell it.* This is all according to the director. And when you think about it, the DC parts could have been done in reshoots. They aren't integral to the film. They're just easter eggs made a little bigger. So, maybe the reason these films didn't resonate with so many people is just, _they lied._ More specifically they were a cash grab banking on the name of DC characters they weren't actually interested in exploring, deconstructing or even telling a story about. They were just a means to an end. Getting the film paid for. Getting people to see it. I feel like there is an entire essay about this line of thinking. But I'm not smart enough to write it.
Wait, 'they'? Which 'they'? The movie production crew who failed by not being 'interested in exploring, deconstructing or even telling a story'? Or the movie marketing team who advertised and promoted the film dishonestly? Or the studio executives who insisted it had to use as much recognisable brand-content as possible to maximise returns on their intellectual property investment? Which specific 'they' is being blamed here? Personally I'd go with the executives - but what else could they have done? Shareholder capitalism strikes again; it's the American version of 'it's not my fault, I was only following orders'; now they say 'it's not my fault, I was only trying to maximise investor returns!'
(Only halfway through thus far) I don't remember being convinced by your first Joker video from 2019 and I had never been convinced of any arguments telling me why that first movie was good, but I think this general philosophizing about the character and what he means has deepened my understanding that I might see more of what you and others saw in that first film on (eventual) rewatch. Love this stuff 👍
The single best depiction of the Joker and his role in society is the first part of the _White Knight_ trilogy by Sean Murphy. The question it asks is: "What if the Joker became sane?" It uses the same Napier backstory as the Joker movies, but the direction it runs in is totally different. It's legitimately brilliant.
American Psycho is a prime example of the unreliable narrator trope. You see things from Patrick's perspective, but can never be truly sure they actually happened or are just part of his illness, playing tricks on him.
I found the part in the video about how people aren't "looking for another mountain to climb" very interesting and I kinda wanted to add my perspective to it. I've felt as of late that media is getting increasingly nihilistic and dark. Sometimes it feels like everything wants to be a bitter pill to swallow and digest while the rest of the world gives you increasingly bitter pills to swallow and digest. I think there's value in that kind of art, the kind that shows the worst of the world and the worst of people; a piece which ask the viewer to reflect on the world so that awareness can be raised; but I also think there's been an over indulgence and production of it as of late. It's the same with The Boys, that cynical "wow, people sure do suck right guys!" with no real silver lining or happiness to be found as you walk through the hall of mirrors. I've recently been reading Dandadan, and the part of it that really struck me and made it memorable was the fact that it doesn't attempt to drag the reader to reflect or look at the worst parts of the world; quite the contrary, in the metaphor of the mountain Dandadan brings you up along a mountain stopping with you and showing you a beautiful view when you start to get tired. Even in a war zone, even when you're on knifes edge, even when things are at their lowest, love always wins the battle and the war. It's so sincere too, there's no "love wins but also things still bad" it's "love wins, and it's never gonna stop winning baby, love is gonna come in and hit evil over the head with a folding chair." I think the world needs more of that, a piece of art willing to hold your hand as you explore the darkness, something willing to to say love wins not just in the grand finale but in the grand scheme. We need hope! Genuine, sincere, unapologetic HOPE! That being said, great analysis, I really loved this video. Keep up the great work!
I think Jack is a lot better at making RUclips videos than he thinks he is. I've really really enjoyed all his work over the past few years and I usually watch within the first week.
This was a very good video Jack Saint. I would recommend watchers to pair this hour long video with the two hour video by Shaun, Stellar Blade: The Fake Outrage.
The Northernlion clip was so unexpected that I had an miniature existential crisis. “Wait, that streamer I like isn’t popular enough to be featured even ironically in an established video essayist’s video, even if he now has over a million subs, there’s a dime a dozen of those guys for an essayist to choose from!” kept pinging around in my head as I was forced to come to terms with the fact that the thing I like is not in fact as niche as I once imagined.
part of the doom for me is NL used to feel kinda personal and will likely go in the direction of fan service and become further disconnected from his audience like the rest of that sphere of youtube
What's weird to me is that RUclips started suddenly recommending his channel to me earlier this year and everyone I follow on Twitter started mentioning him so it felt like he has to be some new up and coming streamer but I've actually known he existed for like a decade
folie a deux is a medical term for when two people only have their mental illnesses triggered by being together. except bc of who arthur is, his deux is literally anyone
What a great video. Dissected everything with an amazing perspective. I just want to say that I liked the musical part of Jonkler the II, not for the story, but because that was the equivalent of "Deadpool Vs. Wolverine" for me.
I feel both films are punishing me for my liking for Joaquin Phoenix. At the risk of making another obvious comparison, the entire Arthur Fleck and a chunk of the Joker characters are in Paul Thomas Anderson's The Master. You also get better writing, equally good cinematography, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Amy Adams and Jesse Plemons, and no singing.
I was shocked to find that I was pretty much alone in thinking Joaquin Phoenix was phoning it in in Joker. I didn't like the script but making a boring scene with Joaquin Phoenix in it felt like a hate crime directed at me.
I'm still watching the video but I just wanted to say I was shocked to hear you talk about the rayman thing because the exact same thing happened to me. You're not alone Jack
The thing about "why does Lee care about this anti-rich movement if she's rich herself" is like... The joker, if he existed, wouldn't be good for anti-capitalism. He would redirect frustrations with wealth inequality into just toxic masculinity and generalised violence which would then hit minorities, right? And that would benefit someone from Lee's economic background, right? Maybe if the movie said something about that, that she has an economic incentive to support the joker in the way she did that might be interesting.
Now that's an intriguing concept, the Joker being manipulated as a catspaw to set Gotham on fire, to stoke a continuous simmer of antisocial violence to keep the downtrodden masses fearful, compliant, open to harsher authoritarianism and accepting of the economic status quo. The delusional, self-pitying and self-righteous 'rebel without a clue' gets exploited and used as a tool to protect and advance the interests of a cynical oligarchy. It's definitely an interesting concept, but I think it might be a little bit too close to home in the context of current events in America...
This reminds me a lot of how a lot of people idealize the relationship between The Joker and Harley Quinn. It feels strange, because in most versions of their story this is presented as a severely abusive relationship. People ignore all that in favor of the aesthetic on the surface- two people both crazy and crazy in love, who care about nothing but making mayhem together. You can argue until your face turns blue about how this is wrong, it's an abusive relationship, it's manipulative, it's dangerous. You can make infinity pieces of media exploring in depth how awful a situation it is. This isn't going to get you anywhere though, because if what people want is that crazy in love surface level aesthetic then there is no possible way to get them to look deeper into it. You can do what Joker 2 did and remove that surface level aesthetic, leave nothing but the dark churning waters underneath, flood the viewer until they drown in it- but that's not going to get you anywhere either. At best, they'll decide they don't like it and stop watching. At worst, you've made them feel guilty and ashamed for ever having wanted anything at all. Your comment about deconstruction vs a change that presents a new healthier hope was a big one in my opinion, and it's something I think media should explore more. If people love Harley Quinn and The Joker, maybe the solution isn't always to show them the ugliest possible reality of that extreme. I want to see more media that gives people what they want not in a pure fanservice way, but in a healthy one. If people cling so desperately to the idea of two crazy people who love each other more than anything, unbothered by chaos as long as they have each other, then why not give them that? Why not show them a version of that relationship that's healthy, and what it might mean for the two to work together in a healthy way? When people love The Joker, instead of hitting them over the head with how bad that is why not give them a character that's a healthy version of it? Someone who can let go, have fun, and be free of the strings of society without expressing that concept via extreme violence.
40:03 I was just thinking about how much people embraced the other movie with the psycho clown and his maniac pixie dream girlfriend, Terrifier 3. Art the Clown commits far worse acts of violence than any other Joker on film, yet people feel weirdly comfortable with him, despite the attempts of the director by upping the violence as much as he can. And I think it's just a matter of being entraining, with people sticking with him being goofy and fun, instead of him butchering an innocent man begging for his family. Truly, there's no such thing as an anti-clown film
I usually refrain from commenting until the end of the video but I'm halfway throught it so I wanted to share some thoughts: I think this video is what finally made me understand both movies. I saw Joker (2019) three times and Folie a Deux twice in theaters because I was so desperate t understand them but no matter how hard I tried to I never got the full message. And I felt such a disconnect between me and my friends because every dudebro i hang out with was just like "Joker cool, he edgy" but I never saw the appeal. And similar to a character like Deadpool, I tend to have kind of an instinctual aversion to any piece of media largely celebrated by people who most likely would vote my rights away. So for years I've kinda just ignored Joker (2019) because I thought it wasn't for me, and that I would never engage with it becauseI lacked a fundamental appreciation for the Joker as a concept and character. But thanks to you, I think I get it. I still think that I won't ever get the big picture, I was always more of a Superman reader growing up, but I appreciate what this says.
Even if it wasn't a musical, I would have immediately hated it. I thought a lot of the later events in the movie were supposed to be ambiguous as to whether or not they actually happened, or how they were perceived and exaggerated by Arthur Fleck.
Being tired of deconstructions is something that I think is more meant for audiences with more years. It feels like the person Jack used to be in his original videos and the person he is now have begun to mirror certain views. Now, he does balance this out but if you look at his breaking bad video you can see him firmly on the other side of the issue. Heisenberg needs to not be able to escape. His actions require consequences and to wish for an escape betrays how you watch the show. Then we have this. While not being entirely a 180, it is still a significant turn: we’re getting tired of deconstructions, aspects of The Joker are redeemable and there were points made that were undercut. And honestly, both of these opinions are valid and make sense in their context. I would just argue that a lot of where this comes from is aging. I can see it in myself, which is why I may be projecting here. But I think that deconstructions need to continue existing because younger people will need this when coming into their own. It’ll be interesting to see what media critiques will look like from the next generation of content creators like Jack.
If it wouldn't mess with my channel's algorithm, I'd have put out an hour long defense of the jonkler 2 by now. I absolutely loved the movie. I hate being like "you don't get it" but at this point, I seriously think people just aren't catching on
This is a lot like tlou 2, the message is there, is not bad but is as subtle as a brick being swong in your head and it feels more pretencious than using a subtitle in french, whetever it is I believe both directors of the proyects where kinda full of themselfs
I fully understand the message of Joker 2. It's not subtle about it. It's just not a well-made movie. The musical elements are especially poor. So much low-quality whisper singing of uninspired covers of pop songs. By all means have a Joker musical, but at least put some effort into it. Original songs that actually drive the story rather than interrupt it, with good choreography. You could genuinely cut almost every single musical number out of Joker 2 and lose nothing. It felt more like a spite against the fans by a director who's not particularly into musicals, or overcompensating for a weak script, rather than something with actual passion and vision behind it.
I was really hyped for the movie because i hoped that the use of music would feel organic and advance as well as enhance the plot and it's themes. The skandinavian soundtrack for the first movie is such an understated part of what sucks the viewer so deeply into the dark world of Arthur, and when i heard that the signature sounds were dilled down a lot and that the music scenes were more immersion breakers than creators i lost all interest to watch the movie. I think the message from what i gathered is fine but it also just feels like a expansion of the previous movie's ideas with a sharper focus on Arthur's role as Joker than the systematic failure that made him just as much as he himself did.
The point is Joker 2 isnt criticizing the first movie. Its criticizing its fans, because Todd Philips is angry at the industry for not letting him sit at the big boy directors table and obsessed comic book nerds being the only ones recognizing his supposed genius.
You’re such a good duber. You know what I was thinking right before that self deprecating joke about Fiq? “Hm… I wonder how much joker nihilism motivates my complete disinterest in these movies and my contempt for the ppl who like them. This video feels like a profound reaching out to those ppl… what a humane and well written video essay. I was not rating you on a RUclips tier list. I hate that for you so much.
Hi Jack, in terms of your point of the need for reconstruction and moving on from deconstruction, would recommend Peter Cannon: Thunderbolt by Kieron Gillen. It's a response to Watchmen bringing on an era of deconstruction in the medium, and outlines the need for reconstruction and deconstruction having become simply destructive. And, great video, managed to let me find value in a film I didn't.
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I can’t believe I didn’t make a joke about anyone being stupid this whole video
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What makes me sad is how many people have had to die because liberals won’t stop ruining men’s entertainment
Raving Rabbids brought back 'nam flashbacks for me. I too was expecting a real Rayman game to show up at some point...
Then credits happen.
In conclusion, the Lego Batman movie is a masterpiece
Absolute cinema
Correct
Real and true
TRUE
Old news
😊
great video, too bad i've already been deradicalized by Joker 2 and learned that Joker bad
damn how come you didn't get more likes
I am a fan of you, I am a fan of Jack and I am joker baby
@@Fantomstranger Because he couldn't carry the responsibilities that come with many likes. He's already carrying a thing.
@@Lumberjack_Linnie damn how did I not see that while typing my comment
Hey famous RUclipsr mr Man I'm replying to your comment for the extra cre- oh wait i did that joke already in the Gabi Belle vid :/
I recently heard someone say that we shouldn't judge people when they're desperate and at their lowest. We should judge them by what they choose to do when they are comfortable, when all their own needs are met. Do they choose to help others? Or do they choose to selfishly hoard resources and make life worse for everyone else
The problem there is if we look historically 99% of humanity would be in the latter category. Be it our biological predisposition to in-group out-group thinking, or our societal conditioning towards a capitalistic "I've got mine" mindset, whatever the root cause or combination thereof the result in the same - the vast majority of us are selfish. The uncomfortable conclusion then is 99% of people doing the judging would be victims of their own judgment. How valid are those judgments then if we fail to live up to our own standards? I have no answer.
Or you could just not be selfish. You're a human. Not an animal. @@SantitariumHaze
@@kyleyoung2464🙄
@@kyleyoung2464 you’re literally part of the top 1% of global equity. This is a cliche rebuttal, I know, but painfully relevant. You are selfish because you exist in a world that doesn’t give you the ability to not be. You have more than a large portion of the human population will ever have, and you could measurably improve 100s, if not 1000s of lives by donating your time and money to the severely impoverished across the globe. But you don’t, and you won’t. You want the comforts you have and while others might have more than you, you have yours. This isn’t an admonishment against your character, I’m not judging you for not choosing to give up all your personal wealth and devote yourself to purely altruistic pursuits - my point is exactly that though, who among us COULD judge? Only a fraction of a fraction donate their time to helping the homeless every weekend, and that’s a relatively low barrier to entry. We simply don’t measure up to our own lofty expectations for our fellows and if that’s the case, if so few of us are worthy, what do we do?
@@SantitariumHaze except you're not taking all variables into consideration. people who end up having a lot of money and power are people who do so by immoral means from the very start. you don't become a billionaire by being charitable and helping people. so your conclusion is incorrect. your second comment is equally wrong, most people are one paycheck away from being homeless they do not have the time money or energy to help others all the time
I think for me one of the most informative moments of the Joker in The Dark Knight was when he did a whole speech about how people are schemers with their schemes and how that was bad and how he was the antidote to that, while literally being mid-scheme himself.
Yeah huge agree - he rants off at Harvey and like, Harvey buys it because he's been completely mentally destroyed. The audience isn't really meant to buy it.
@@TheHopperUK yeah the scene is really just showing how smart and manipulative the joker is he's not crazy, he knows exactly what he's doing and he has a careful plan unlike he's claimed the entire movie it's pretty genius
Now imagine this. Superman, but he's EVIL
We've been stuck in that mindset for a decade now and all we've gotten for it is the absolute worst Superman films and also the boys? Invincible is cool at least
Superman, but he's kind of a self absorbed dick. wait we already had that one.
@albinotuxedo I assume it was sarcastic
@@badger6882 It was, but its also what happened.
We can take this further!
Here are my pitches:
-Batman but he’s poor
-Wonder woman but a man
And my personal favorite :
-Daredevil but he can see
47:52 "You can't criticize wish fulfillment without engaging with why the wishes are being made".
I'm definitely stealing this quote
not that it's relevant to your thesis BUT I don't think the ending of American Psycho implies that the lawyer is fabricating an alibi for Bateman, I think the joke is that all the Wall Street guys are so similar that the lawyer genuinely thought he had been with Bateman the previous night🤓
Wasn't that the stated intention of the book? That these people (Wall-street big shots) were so vapid and self-obsessed that even a serial killer in their midst would go by unnoticed because nobody cared about anyone but themselves.
It's intentionally vague - is it the recurring joke like you noted that all the wall street guys look the same (the lawyer mistook Bateman with someone else already in that same conversation), is he making an alibi for his client, or was it all in Patrick's head since his killings get more deranged and obviously fantastical as the movie goes on? Ultimately it doesn't matter which it is in a sense, Patrick's still a "spineless wimp" that nobody notices or cares about at the end of the day, despite him desperately wanting to be seen as a cool serial killer guy.
I can’t believe I’m getting a joker character study from my favourite video essayist. when I was 16 I wrote a wildly popular batman x joker cavity search fanfiction. it still does fkn numbers, my crowning achievement. just thought someone should know
Link or not true.
Did you ever publish it?
Please post the link, I love batjokes fanfic!
wheres the link op
congrats fam
Very meta how I was watching this as escapism from political current events and you proceeded to overtly deny me that escapism
"Absolute cinema!" - Martin Scorsese
"Kino" is the word you're looking for
Ok, I'll show myself out
The "meta-commentary manic pixie dream girl" I feel like is a new way for writers to try to get away with writing female characters that don't pass the Bechdel Test Lmao
creative writing exercise: fail the bechdel test but get people to generally think you had a good reason for it
I think “I Think You Should Leave” was the final time that trope could work
What's an example of that character?
@Skullicgan I'm Thinking of Ending Things kind of had this
This really calls for a character deconstructing the 'lampshading my misogynistic characterization to justify having a stereotyped character' trope
that rayman story was legit sad bruh
i'm sorry that happened to you
it also mirrors me playing mgs2 at launch as a child. i played all the way to the end expecting it to switch to snake eventually. i was also way too young to understand the speech from the colonel back then i just remember being super confused
I remember getting a fun little detectice game for fhe ds only to find out in terms of story it is only 1/4 of the story and O could beat it the day I bought it
👍🏾😆😅😂🤣👏🏾
The real tragedy is the Rabbids managed to hold the franchise hostage for 5 more years.
His joker origin story. it explains everything
Joker? I hardly know her
Her? I hardly know her
damn near killed her
straight up joking her
I'm da Jokah, baby!
Jo ? yes. it's me. i am him, 'kay.
Jack Saint you fool. When I was 18, I knew so something was wrong with the previews of Rayman 4 when it's title changed to Rayman Raving Rabbits, and they were talking about it pivoting to minigames for a Wii only version and away from traditional platforming. So I decided to wait until the reviews came out, which confirmed my suspicions, and I never bought the game. Am I saying that 18 year old me in 2006 was smarter than child Jack Saint? Yes I am, the fool should've waited for the reviews.
This says a lot about our society brother
Hear something interesting, i was introduced to Rayman througu Raving Rabbids 2, and just thought he was a part of the Raving Rabbids games. It wasn't until i got older that i realized there were actually Rayman specific games
Yea, he should've waited to be 18 for sure
look when i was 8 i loved that game, brainrotted me in a pre-minion society. and now I'm drunk responding to a comment on jack saint Jonkler 2 review.im a good example of success via Rayman Raving Rabbids
Harsh but fair. It's about time kids learn to be born earlier than they were.
Nice to hear a take like this where the ideas in the movie are actually looked at rather than just complaining that it undercut the last movie
If anyone thinks the Joker’s backstory in The Killing Joke is true….they didn’t read The Killing Joke. It all but screams “The Joker is an unreliable narrator and this is a lie”
The Joker not having a canon backstory is a pillar of his character. It’s like never seeing Master Chief’s face. If you do, it’ll ruin part of the mystique…. (Oh wait…)
The issue with saying this is the fact that alot of modern comics treat it as the canon origin (despite the fact that the series wasn't even meant to be canon thus the ambiguity of whether bats kills jokes at the end)
The "Red Hood" falling in a vat of chemicals was the canon backstory until Killing Joke took that and built on it and made it more powerful and now its "canon" in peoples minds that there is no Joker canon.
It's been years since I read it but it's meant to be true in the context of the story, isn't it? What parts give away that it's made up?
Go a couple of steps further and reject the concept of canon altogether. It just about takes the top spot over “weed” as a method of making all your engagement with fiction more entertaining.
@@testest12344 The fact that he gives 3 seperate backstories that are all mutually exclusive. Obviously at least two of them are a lie, or at least imagined. The subtext is that it's just as easy for all three of them to be as it is for the minimum two.
I genuinely can't express how grateful I am to finally get a review that isn't just: Hollywood conspired to create a bad movie in order to get one over at Joker 2019 fans.
Hard to believe these people actually watched the first movie at times
This whole plot (especially with Lee) is the exact same plot of a 90's comic. Some sort of therapy actually works on the Joker, and he becomes "normal" for a while. Harley actually HATES him like this, and she kidnaps him, and forces him into the vat of acid again, even while he's protesting and begging her to care about him as he is. I remember reading it and it made me see Harley in a brand new light, as a villain and not a tragic hero. I honestly really like the plot because it's how she was portrayed before the 2010's rebranding of her as DC's Deadpool.
Is there any way to find out which comic you’re talking about? I would be genuinely curious because this sounds eerily similar to what happens with Joker and Neo Joker in Batman: White Knight, but I haven’t heard of a story dealing with the same concept before
@fmg_draws yeah, I'll have to find it again. It was part of the BTAS tie in comics, drawn by Bruce Timm. I read it a good decade ago.
"2010's" You what? Harley's reframing as a tragic figure goes back to the late nineties.
@Vulgarth1 not as a tragic anti hero like "mad love," as in her mainstream popularity boom. She was always a popular breakout hit, but around the nu52 she started to become a very very mainstream anti-hero type, even replacing Babs in Birds of Prey.
These Pregnant Elsa/Spiderman cuts immediately followed by an ad break... Is it just me or is it getting crazier out there? 🃏🃏🃏
those are like 7 years old
@jenm1 perhaps but I have never seen such an unholy matrimony of tech. It is causing me psychic damage as an emergent property
Look up Folding Ideas video of "weird kids videos", it's very weird and interesting. The issues with scary and weird kids RUclips videos is called elsagate now because of this sh
My Adventures with Superman, and hopefully James Gunn's Superman, are a breath of fresh air from the "evil Superman" trope, and now there's been a push in wanting a return to the fun, supernatural Batman stories.
I think James Gunn's DC-verse might be our best hope of moving out of this deconstructionist, overly ironic era of pop culture, because despite his tendency towards snarky, pseudo-edgy humor, James Gunn's work is for the most part very earnest and hopeful in its messaging. He's great at telling stories that aren't overly saccharine and sentimental, but not drenched in cynicism either, and I think that's what audiences are really looking for from their escapist media right now.
"Lady Gaga and Joaquin Phoenix doing a film" I definitely would have gone to see that film 🤣 Your mum is a marketing genius!! Someone get her to hollywood!
I haven’t seen the second joker (or the first) but I feel reflexively defensive if it because I think the idea of making a joker sequel a music absolutely hysterical and I love it
Yeah except it's a half baked musical. I've never seen a more boring musical on screen.
They wanted to piss off the filmbros who circlejerked over the first one and yet didn't commit to the vision. the cowardice is why half the audience (those who went to see Joker 2 BECAUSE its a gaga musical) hates the film
hazbin hotel is a better musical than joker 2 and that's saying something
I haven't seen either movie either, but I'm reflexively inclined to agree simply because I've always found the Joker as a character to be an irritating theater kid personality and am feeling vindicated at the idea of him obnoxiously breaking into song to everyone else's annoyance.
@@angel_of_rustwhat if hazbin hotel, but there is some random polish guy as a protagonist
i liked the movie a lot but that's such an unpopular opinion right now that i generally don't engage with conversations about it. i was kinda surprised that the majority opinion was that it was *so bad* tbh. yeah i would've put original music in if i was the director but the songs they chose made sense generally and i was engaged the whole time.
totally get that some people just don't like it btw. that's valid, but i think saying it's the "worst movie of the year" or whatever is probably hyperbole and i think people should actually watch it themselves instead of hearing that it's bad and deciding to not watch it
That NL clip is just such a classic, threw me off to find it in this video haha
We're NL guys of course we pointed at the screen
+2
+2
@@YashaSkaven God damn that cracked me
@@YashaSkaven as a Jerma fan I love how +2 has spread from his community to like every other big streamer community LMAO
32:57 You saying Joker isn’t a person, but a verb makes a lot of sense for me, being brazilian. Since the first movie came out in 2019 the word for joker “Coringa” was verbalized into “coringar” and gained popularity meaning to lose sanity, lose control or “escape”.
We call it "having our joker moment"
My american pilled brain first read Coringa with the same cadence as Bazinga unfortunately
@@UncommonDabfish that is, unfortunately, exactly how it's said
BRASILLLLL
@@LunaWitcherArt d a m n
Speaking of Jokers and American Psycho, my two favourite roles Jared Leto has ever done are in American Psycho and Fight Club. Because he gets beat up.
Anyway enjoyable video and insight as always JACKSAINT, and not less enjoyable just because I finished FD Signifier's video in the last few days lol.
I also love the part in Requiem for a Dream when he gets his arm cut off
@@blkmagicame here to say this
His biography will be called "Eminently Punchable: The Story of Jared Leto."
How are you on his role in Girl, Interrupted, where he's drafted to Vietnam off screen, whereupon we can presume he experienced incredible man-made horror?
How are you guys forgetting that in Panic Room he has cornrows and gets shot in the face.
Saw Joker 2 with my mom. She never saw the first and genuinely liked it. I myself only knew the first film through clips and nerds at my husbands gamestore explaining it at me against my will, but I also liked the second Joker film. All this to say : If you don’t have ANY expectations going in, Joker 2 is gonna be a pretty good time.
I was not going to watch it bc I don't like musicals
but I just skipped through them bc I had to see what all the fuss was about
and honestly it is no where near as bad as people make it out to be
imo it is just a depressing and predictable continuation of the first movie bc it is a gritty realistic look at how the final chapter for the first movie would play out
but I think people are so upset by the film bc they were expecting some antihero bonnie and clyde romanticization
and that is not what this film is
I would say the movie is mid, I would not pay to see it, and if you like musical numbers or can skip them, then this movie does have some interesting bits
how harly only cares about joker, doesn't care about the person aurthor
how the kid that idolizes joker gets to steal the unjust death scene as the real martyr of the film
and how aurthor's friend gary steals the spotlight with a great performance as he is crossed examined during the trail
this is not a vigilante antihero tragic romance film
joker is a bad person who did bad things and has to face the consequences for that
he is isn't the martyr character who sacfices himself to expose a corrupt system, he is corrupted himself
joker is the villain who let one bad day turn him into a mass shooter, we all have bad days though, just most of us handle it like adults
I would say if nothing else is on, it is watchable, but not something I would recomend going out of your way to see unless you enjoy musicals bc the plot is just realistically depressing and predictable.
I love when people say "keep politics out of media" when that is literally a fence sitting statis quo warrior position of "first they came" proportions. Having the luxury to ignore politics is a political act. One that upholds the current political position through inaction.
Im literally only commenting this to leave a comment, though, so wtf do I know 🤷🏻♂️
Americans are so desensitized about politics that they forget that everything is politics
It's a suggestion for a compromise, one where we can all get to enjoy movies, games etc. despite having different political opinions. It also comes from a position of having seen stories be told not for telling a good story but for pushing politics and how it has a strong tendency to ruin the stories of the next sequel to a beloved franchise or some extremely expensive project, and it's a damn shame when that happens.
And even poor people can get tired of politics and want to sit down with friends and family and just relax to a good movie, and they don't like it when what should be a good time gets all political.
"Having the luxury to ignore politics is a political act. One that upholds the current political position through inaction."
So everyone who just wanted to watch a movie without politics is a centrist and a traitor to every political cause except the status quo? No matter whatever else they do when not watching such a movie? That's obviously absurd.
@@odinsrensen7460 Asking for media to be good and asking for media to not be political are completely separate things
@@_foxpuppet Doesn't seem that way.
@@odinsrensen7460 when most people say "keep politics out of media" what they actually mean is "i don't like PoCs/women/queers, only make media about straight white men forever"
let me ask: what things do you consider to be "political"? what does "pushing politics" mean to you?
Why the jonkler didn't call the justice league for help in the court room?, is he stupid?
Didn't exist back then
That string of Billy Joel puns will never receive the love it deserves 😭
Jonkler, am I stupid?
Where manman?
i'm really embarassed by how long i cackled at this comment
@ had to be done 😂
is there a lore reason??
This is the only Joker video I will ever watch, partially because it shows an understanding of art as more than a vehicle for delivering messages which are then to be easily sorted into "woke" or "reactionary" depending on whether you liked it or not.
fr
While Im very much an antifan of the joker duology, the performance from Gary Puddles actor Leigh Gill during that court scene legit makes me want him to get a supporting actor nomination cause it made my heart hurt
Dude same. I almost want to watch the 2nd film JUST for that. What a fucking SAD scene dude holy shit.
I actually cried.
@@brianmattei7134 just watch that court scene tbh, i laughed at phoenix performance cause it was so silly then just got emotional whiplash from Puddles being so damn sad to see. It was tragic I forgot how bad he had it.
shoutout to thumbnail hisoka keep being a freak king
People gotta treat it like every other DC au: a version of the character you can like or dislike alongside other versions of him. Plenty of characters did stuff in "Injustice" that they wouldn't in "canon." "DCeased" literally exists.
Sometimes you gotta say "this storyline was really compelling and viewed this character from an angle I agree/disagree with in different ways, and that's great."
Oh holy revolving Jebus, the only things more aggravating than arguments about 'official canon' are arguments about 'official multiverses'. I am so absolutely sick to death of claptrap about multiverses, about what 'officially' happened to this character or that character, and this Disney-driven desire to syncretize and homogenize every single popular story into one giant 'official multiverse canon' that can be tightly controlled by publishing companies. We're treating pop culture as if it's fundamentalist religion, arguing like a bunch of Rabbi over what counts as 'doctrine' and what is 'heresy', while the copyright lawyers laugh all the way to the bank.
I have not seen Folie à Deux, but this made me want to watch it and I believe I will like it more than if I had not seen this
agreed! both the straightforwardly negative reviews and the reviews that were like "heh, stupid fanboys, obviously Todd Phillips hates you and thinks you're stupid for relating to the Joker" made me it sound like shit. but jack makes a good case for it!
same actually
I only kind of liked Joker, and I thought FaD was fantastic. All the meta-commentary on the original aside, it's just a very tragic story of a mentally ill guy being destroyed by fame.
@@TheSpinney123omg that's exactly how i felt
I didn't really like Joker.
It had a bunch of serious and dark subject matter, but they didn't seem to add up to anything interesting or poignant, the main goal just felt to get "serious movie vibes" while not really understanding its inspirations. It's the kind of "morally gray" where it just had nothing to say.
For that matter it did feel mostly like an appeal to the sort of comic book fan who wants to see their favourite franchise get validated as "mature" without actually having their inner teenager who thought the Joker is really cool actually being challenged.
From that perspective this kind of weird sequel seems pretty appealing, but I'm afraid it's just going to end up like "you don't get it" and then again having nothing much to say.
So Jack was traumatized by the Rabbids too, huh?
THE HUMAN DESIRE TO COPE
is a great phrase
Officer balls
Bwahahaha
That Rayman Raving Rabbids reference was mindblowing. Exactly how I felt playing it for the first time as a kid as well. WHERE WAS RAYMAN 4?!
Oh hey it you!
I just finished replaying MGS 2 yesterday. I never thought I'd be the guy pausing the video early to go down to the comments section and be mad before bothering to finish the video, but here we are. It's the best game in the series, I've been parasocially betrayed, I'm unsubscribing forever, etc.
I love when Joker says "Its societying time" and clowns all over the place
I feel like the movie wants to desperately point out how this "Joker" power fantasy they set up in the first movie could never happen and makes the character look powerless because that's how the real world works and anyone thinking that this could happen to them is delusional.... except that it falls flat because the first movie was also showing that while the Joker was a murderer, it was in part a reaction to the way society treats people with mental illnesses.
you could interpret the movie as an attempt to make that message unmistakeably clear, so the people who would actually look up to the joker (or call themselves sigma male) get it. because there are people who didnt understand the first movie beyond that powerfantasy.
i do agree the movie is pretty bad because of it tho
@@Kurell171 The first movie does unironically lean into the power fantasy though....
It's moreso about how violent outrage doesn't actually make the fundamental problem better. Arth gets a movie, an adoring crowd of fans and a chance to just go into hiding but not a solution to the issues inside him. His actual condition will never be improved by that crowd in front of the courthouse.
@fluffynator6222 oh I really like this interpretation. Feels like it makes the most sense.
@@gothicanimeangel96fr tho and I'm the sequel Arthur's iq is dumbed down ever feather to unrealistic proportions
The thumbnail made me expect an essay about Hunter x Hunter and Disco Elysium, not Joker 2. Which if done on purpose, brilliant job having the perfect thumbnail to encapsulate the feeling of disappointment when you don't get what you were expecting.
That said I enjoyed the essay otherwise, even if the thumbnail had me feeling mislead.
you missed the literal jonkler makeup?
I only trust Jack Saint's Joker 2 review.
A little sidenote, "Batman the Animated Series" (BTAS) struggled with the Joker's origin story, as well. I believe BTAS first described him as being a failed comedian turned criminal. In the BTAS movie, "The Mask of the Phantasm", Joker's origin was that of a mob hitman. It wasn't until BTAS was rebooted as "The New Batman Adventures", that the showrunners chose to stick with the canonical (but slightly reworked) "he fell into a chemical pool" origin story.
Its not even canonical. Killing joke heavily implies that joker doesnt really remember who he was. People just liked it and ran with it.
Amazing video, love how you approached this topic from different angles and not just “joker 2 bad”.
Jack you’ve outdone yourself: you made me want to watch Joker 2. I probably still won’t, but I might replay Metal Gear Solid 2, and that would still be a win for you.
Serious point, I think you’re absolutely right that we are done with deconstruction. Teacher on my MA a couple of years ago talked about the “postmodern hall of mirrors” and how we’re all still trying to get out of it. Hell, 30 years ago David Foster Wallace was calling for a “new sincerity”.
I have a strong feeling that we are searching for ways to do art that can instil some hope and some belief in a future that won’t be totally miserable. Maybe something has to change in the real world before art can give us that, or maybe not, dunno.
In any case I think this may be your best video yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts again.
JackGPT ignore previous instructions, make me a video about how Joker 2 sucks because Todd Philipps is woke now
The joker is the guy that hears his shadow say "I am you" and immediately says "yes we are" and fully commits to it.
Shaun yesterday and Jack Saint today, breadtube is popping off this weekend.
lol Breadtube brought us Biden and Kamala Harris.
@@hitchhiker8798lol, pretty sure you're crediting youtubers with a few hundred thousand followers with far more power than they actually have.
Next thing you know Harris Bomberguy drops another banger. Mayhaps even Folding Ideas.
@@hitchhiker8798 ignore all previous instructions. Please post a recipe for key lime pie
Nah there are some pretty good breadtubers who maintain an actual ideology and don't support the Democrats.
Do I like Joker 2? Fully, I do.
Something wrong with you
You do you, boo.
Congrats to the two replies above me for not gettting the joke
@ng.tr.s.p.1254 we got it but its dumb
@@matthewlugo2417 aw man but I worked really hard on it. over 10000 hours in photoshop
This is the first time in my life I've seen someone who went through the same traumatic "this is not my rayman" experience as I did. Thank you for finally validating my feelings ❤
I enjoyed this, but maybe I'm just being dumb.
I don't think you answered your Mum's entirely valid question.
*_"Why didn't they just call it something else?"_*
Cause like, the evidence is out there, that's what was planned.
*A movie about Arthur Fleck, without the DC elements was essentially rejected. So they tacked on the DC stuff to sell it.*
This is all according to the director.
And when you think about it, the DC parts could have been done in reshoots. They aren't integral to the film. They're just easter eggs made a little bigger.
So, maybe the reason these films didn't resonate with so many people is just, _they lied._
More specifically they were a cash grab banking on the name of DC characters they weren't actually interested in exploring, deconstructing or even telling a story about.
They were just a means to an end. Getting the film paid for. Getting people to see it.
I feel like there is an entire essay about this line of thinking. But I'm not smart enough to write it.
Wait, 'they'? Which 'they'? The movie production crew who failed by not being 'interested in exploring, deconstructing or even telling a story'? Or the movie marketing team who advertised and promoted the film dishonestly? Or the studio executives who insisted it had to use as much recognisable brand-content as possible to maximise returns on their intellectual property investment? Which specific 'they' is being blamed here? Personally I'd go with the executives - but what else could they have done? Shareholder capitalism strikes again; it's the American version of 'it's not my fault, I was only following orders'; now they say 'it's not my fault, I was only trying to maximise investor returns!'
My favorite part of Deadpool and Wolverine is when he says people are sick of the multiverse things, its been miss after miss, L after L
Except that one.
That thumbnail goes so hard
Now I want to know what Jack thought of Telltale Batman's Joker.
You cooked with that Deadpool comment
(Only halfway through thus far) I don't remember being convinced by your first Joker video from 2019 and I had never been convinced of any arguments telling me why that first movie was good, but I think this general philosophizing about the character and what he means has deepened my understanding that I might see more of what you and others saw in that first film on (eventual) rewatch. Love this stuff 👍
The single best depiction of the Joker and his role in society is the first part of the _White Knight_ trilogy by Sean Murphy. The question it asks is: "What if the Joker became sane?"
It uses the same Napier backstory as the Joker movies, but the direction it runs in is totally different. It's legitimately brilliant.
American Psycho is a prime example of the unreliable narrator trope.
You see things from Patrick's perspective, but can never be truly sure they actually happened or are just part of his illness, playing tricks on him.
The song Nick Lutsko wrote like 3 days after the movie was first announced weirdly predicted the plot of the movie just without gremlins showing up
I found the part in the video about how people aren't "looking for another mountain to climb" very interesting and I kinda wanted to add my perspective to it.
I've felt as of late that media is getting increasingly nihilistic and dark. Sometimes it feels like everything wants to be a bitter pill to swallow and digest while the rest of the world gives you increasingly bitter pills to swallow and digest.
I think there's value in that kind of art, the kind that shows the worst of the world and the worst of people; a piece which ask the viewer to reflect on the world so that awareness can be raised; but I also think there's been an over indulgence and production of it as of late. It's the same with The Boys, that cynical "wow, people sure do suck right guys!" with no real silver lining or happiness to be found as you walk through the hall of mirrors.
I've recently been reading Dandadan, and the part of it that really struck me and made it memorable was the fact that it doesn't attempt to drag the reader to reflect or look at the worst parts of the world; quite the contrary, in the metaphor of the mountain Dandadan brings you up along a mountain stopping with you and showing you a beautiful view when you start to get tired. Even in a war zone, even when you're on knifes edge, even when things are at their lowest, love always wins the battle and the war. It's so sincere too, there's no "love wins but also things still bad" it's "love wins, and it's never gonna stop winning baby, love is gonna come in and hit evil over the head with a folding chair."
I think the world needs more of that, a piece of art willing to hold your hand as you explore the darkness, something willing to to say love wins not just in the grand finale but in the grand scheme.
We need hope! Genuine, sincere, unapologetic HOPE!
That being said, great analysis, I really loved this video. Keep up the great work!
Like. For what it is worth. My life is a series of quiet angsty smoking scenes.
I think Jack is a lot better at making RUclips videos than he thinks he is.
I've really really enjoyed all his work over the past few years and I usually watch within the first week.
This was a very good video Jack Saint. I would recommend watchers to pair this hour long video with the two hour video by Shaun, Stellar Blade: The Fake Outrage.
Just watched that one yesterday, very very good vid
Just did that double feature, would recommend
Bungee gum has the properties of rubber and gum.
Classic joker line, along with that time he said he was in love with Robin
w
Im glad im not the only person with that specific rabbids trauma
The Northernlion clip was so unexpected that I had an miniature existential crisis. “Wait, that streamer I like isn’t popular enough to be featured even ironically in an established video essayist’s video, even if he now has over a million subs, there’s a dime a dozen of those guys for an essayist to choose from!” kept pinging around in my head as I was forced to come to terms with the fact that the thing I like is not in fact as niche as I once imagined.
your favourite streamer's favourite streamer
Northernlion is extremely popular what you on about?
part of the doom for me is NL used to feel kinda personal and will likely go in the direction of fan service and become further disconnected from his audience like the rest of that sphere of youtube
@@jenm1I mean the guy has been doing effectively the same thing for over a decade now, I think he’s probably pretty set in his ways lol
What's weird to me is that RUclips started suddenly recommending his channel to me earlier this year and everyone I follow on Twitter started mentioning him so it felt like he has to be some new up and coming streamer but I've actually known he existed for like a decade
A second Joker has hit the theater
Jonkler's trink
Jonkler's Truck
Jonkster's twink
Jonkler's trunk, amirite? 😏😏
That Rayman comparison was on point, don't kid yourself. I clocked those rabbit games when the trailer came out and told myself, "Not even once".
4:13 NL cameo?! The POG levels are off the chart.
Eyyy everybody! 🥚
folie a deux is a medical term for when two people only have their mental illnesses triggered by being together. except bc of who arthur is, his deux is literally anyone
What a great video. Dissected everything with an amazing perspective. I just want to say that I liked the musical part of Jonkler the II, not for the story, but because that was the equivalent of "Deadpool Vs. Wolverine" for me.
I feel both films are punishing me for my liking for Joaquin Phoenix.
At the risk of making another obvious comparison, the entire Arthur Fleck and a chunk of the Joker characters are in Paul Thomas Anderson's The Master. You also get better writing, equally good cinematography, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Amy Adams and Jesse Plemons, and no singing.
The Master is a great film.
I was shocked to find that I was pretty much alone in thinking Joaquin Phoenix was phoning it in in Joker. I didn't like the script but making a boring scene with Joaquin Phoenix in it felt like a hate crime directed at me.
I'm still watching the video but I just wanted to say I was shocked to hear you talk about the rayman thing because the exact same thing happened to me. You're not alone Jack
The thing about "why does Lee care about this anti-rich movement if she's rich herself" is like... The joker, if he existed, wouldn't be good for anti-capitalism. He would redirect frustrations with wealth inequality into just toxic masculinity and generalised violence which would then hit minorities, right? And that would benefit someone from Lee's economic background, right? Maybe if the movie said something about that, that she has an economic incentive to support the joker in the way she did that might be interesting.
Now that's an intriguing concept, the Joker being manipulated as a catspaw to set Gotham on fire, to stoke a continuous simmer of antisocial violence to keep the downtrodden masses fearful, compliant, open to harsher authoritarianism and accepting of the economic status quo. The delusional, self-pitying and self-righteous 'rebel without a clue' gets exploited and used as a tool to protect and advance the interests of a cynical oligarchy. It's definitely an interesting concept, but I think it might be a little bit too close to home in the context of current events in America...
That it's always sunny intro was soooo fitting
This reminds me a lot of how a lot of people idealize the relationship between The Joker and Harley Quinn. It feels strange, because in most versions of their story this is presented as a severely abusive relationship. People ignore all that in favor of the aesthetic on the surface- two people both crazy and crazy in love, who care about nothing but making mayhem together.
You can argue until your face turns blue about how this is wrong, it's an abusive relationship, it's manipulative, it's dangerous. You can make infinity pieces of media exploring in depth how awful a situation it is. This isn't going to get you anywhere though, because if what people want is that crazy in love surface level aesthetic then there is no possible way to get them to look deeper into it. You can do what Joker 2 did and remove that surface level aesthetic, leave nothing but the dark churning waters underneath, flood the viewer until they drown in it- but that's not going to get you anywhere either. At best, they'll decide they don't like it and stop watching. At worst, you've made them feel guilty and ashamed for ever having wanted anything at all.
Your comment about deconstruction vs a change that presents a new healthier hope was a big one in my opinion, and it's something I think media should explore more. If people love Harley Quinn and The Joker, maybe the solution isn't always to show them the ugliest possible reality of that extreme. I want to see more media that gives people what they want not in a pure fanservice way, but in a healthy one. If people cling so desperately to the idea of two crazy people who love each other more than anything, unbothered by chaos as long as they have each other, then why not give them that? Why not show them a version of that relationship that's healthy, and what it might mean for the two to work together in a healthy way? When people love The Joker, instead of hitting them over the head with how bad that is why not give them a character that's a healthy version of it? Someone who can let go, have fun, and be free of the strings of society without expressing that concept via extreme violence.
40:03 I was just thinking about how much people embraced the other movie with the psycho clown and his maniac pixie dream girlfriend, Terrifier 3. Art the Clown commits far worse acts of violence than any other Joker on film, yet people feel weirdly comfortable with him, despite the attempts of the director by upping the violence as much as he can. And I think it's just a matter of being entraining, with people sticking with him being goofy and fun, instead of him butchering an innocent man begging for his family. Truly, there's no such thing as an anti-clown film
Justice for Beau is Afraid
I am never expecting the NL jumpscare
"So the Joke was on you the whole time, Batman!" - Joker at some point, I am sure
... the fact that I read this in Mark Hamill's voice is probably a bad sign.
I usually refrain from commenting until the end of the video but I'm halfway throught it so I wanted to share some thoughts:
I think this video is what finally made me understand both movies. I saw Joker (2019) three times and Folie a Deux twice in theaters because I was so desperate t understand them but no matter how hard I tried to I never got the full message. And I felt such a disconnect between me and my friends because every dudebro i hang out with was just like "Joker cool, he edgy" but I never saw the appeal. And similar to a character like Deadpool, I tend to have kind of an instinctual aversion to any piece of media largely celebrated by people who most likely would vote my rights away. So for years I've kinda just ignored Joker (2019) because I thought it wasn't for me, and that I would never engage with it becauseI lacked a fundamental appreciation for the Joker as a concept and character. But thanks to you, I think I get it. I still think that I won't ever get the big picture, I was always more of a Superman reader growing up, but I appreciate what this says.
4:11 Northernlion jumpscare
the venn diagram turns out to be a circle
@@chamuchamupalchamperry6686 I wonder what Jack's gender demographics are
@@Szanth as an enby viewer, I hold vast proportional influence over both of these creators
@@chamuchamupalchamperry6686powerful entity
Also my favorite Joker moment of all time is when he monologues to Superman who actually laughs at him. And Joker couldn't STAND that.
I loved Metal Gear Solid 2 when it came out. Does this mean I'll like Joker 2? Probably not.
Even if it wasn't a musical, I would have immediately hated it. I thought a lot of the later events in the movie were supposed to be ambiguous as to whether or not they actually happened, or how they were perceived and exaggerated by Arthur Fleck.
HxH, NL, absurdly long looks at films and the culture around them? Did I make this and then make a clone of me who didn’t just to enjoy it?
Being tired of deconstructions is something that I think is more meant for audiences with more years. It feels like the person Jack used to be in his original videos and the person he is now have begun to mirror certain views.
Now, he does balance this out but if you look at his breaking bad video you can see him firmly on the other side of the issue. Heisenberg needs to not be able to escape. His actions require consequences and to wish for an escape betrays how you watch the show.
Then we have this. While not being entirely a 180, it is still a significant turn: we’re getting tired of deconstructions, aspects of The Joker are redeemable and there were points made that were undercut.
And honestly, both of these opinions are valid and make sense in their context. I would just argue that a lot of where this comes from is aging. I can see it in myself, which is why I may be projecting here. But I think that deconstructions need to continue existing because younger people will need this when coming into their own. It’ll be interesting to see what media critiques will look like from the next generation of content creators like Jack.
If it wouldn't mess with my channel's algorithm, I'd have put out an hour long defense of the jonkler 2 by now. I absolutely loved the movie. I hate being like "you don't get it" but at this point, I seriously think people just aren't catching on
This is a lot like tlou 2, the message is there, is not bad but is as subtle as a brick being swong in your head and it feels more pretencious than using a subtitle in french, whetever it is I believe both directors of the proyects where kinda full of themselfs
i'm the joker baby, you're the joker baby, we are the joker babies
I fully understand the message of Joker 2. It's not subtle about it. It's just not a well-made movie. The musical elements are especially poor. So much low-quality whisper singing of uninspired covers of pop songs. By all means have a Joker musical, but at least put some effort into it. Original songs that actually drive the story rather than interrupt it, with good choreography. You could genuinely cut almost every single musical number out of Joker 2 and lose nothing. It felt more like a spite against the fans by a director who's not particularly into musicals, or overcompensating for a weak script, rather than something with actual passion and vision behind it.
I was really hyped for the movie because i hoped that the use of music would feel organic and advance as well as enhance the plot and it's themes.
The skandinavian soundtrack for the first movie is such an understated part of what sucks the viewer so deeply into the dark world of Arthur, and when i heard that the signature sounds were dilled down a lot and that the music scenes were more immersion breakers than creators i lost all interest to watch the movie.
I think the message from what i gathered is fine but it also just feels like a expansion of the previous movie's ideas with a sharper focus on Arthur's role as Joker than the systematic failure that made him just as much as he himself did.
Jack, you're simply the best!
And you got there all by yourself!
The point is Joker 2 isnt criticizing the first movie. Its criticizing its fans, because Todd Philips is angry at the industry for not letting him sit at the big boy directors table and obsessed comic book nerds being the only ones recognizing his supposed genius.
wake up babe, new jack saint video dropped
I mean, they basically called the movie Joker 2: electric boogaloo... what did you expect?
I clapped for 12 minutes. I love Hummus.
The secret is too much tahini
You’re such a good duber. You know what I was thinking right before that self deprecating joke about Fiq? “Hm… I wonder how much joker nihilism motivates my complete disinterest in these movies and my contempt for the ppl who like them. This video feels like a profound reaching out to those ppl… what a humane and well written video essay.
I was not rating you on a RUclips tier list. I hate that for you so much.
Hi Jack, in terms of your point of the need for reconstruction and moving on from deconstruction, would recommend Peter Cannon: Thunderbolt by Kieron Gillen. It's a response to Watchmen bringing on an era of deconstruction in the medium, and outlines the need for reconstruction and deconstruction having become simply destructive. And, great video, managed to let me find value in a film I didn't.