Planing VS Sanding
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
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Any hand tool enthusiast will tell you, hand planes produce a better surface with more clarity even after finishing. But is that true? I tend to use scrapers and planes as the last step prior to finish mostly because it saves on sandpaper and creates less dust. If the surface actually looks better after finishing too, then using these tools as a final step before finishing is a no-brainer!
Test board were finished with Osmo PolyX: amzn.to/3TYr4yI
Please check out the full article on our website for additional conclusions and hi-res images. www.thewoodwhi...
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Was there any difference in how the different surfaces felt?
Yes. The planed surface was actually much rougher, but that's probably due to the high angle of the plan and the extreme figuring. most times a nicely-planed surface will feel like glass.
@@eduardvaniersel7535 1111111
Don't forget; sanding is a chore, planing is immensely satisfying :)
I need to start building up my hand tool collection.... that was super informative
Preach it brother preach it!
haha James! Of course!
First Honda, and now big plane is in your pocket. Good for you.
Generally speaking the hand planed surface will of course absorb the finish more because you're leaving those pores open. Osmo LOVES open pores because the natural oils soak in way better. That's why the original flooring guys using Osmo Polyx generally only sand to 120. When I am doing something like a table top I only sand to 150 when using Osmo Polyx (sometimes water pop the grains although the Osmo Germany guys say you don't need to water pop). For a figured wood maybe 180, rarely 220 because, like you said, you're closing the pores by that point. Your smoothness comes from the natural waxes curing on the surface and your 320 sanding between coat 1 and coat 2 of the Polyx. And you want to apply 2 coats. Again, if anyone ever wants more tips and tricks for the Osmo lineup - please feel free to contact me - that's what I'm here for guys!
This is actually very helpful in helping me understand these methods and their attributes. Thanks a lot for this small but helpful video!
Always interesting and informative videos! Thank you very much for sharing!
3 years later and still helpful! Thank you!
I am probably the only one that did not like the wood, but liked the test!
Nope ur not alone
i think it would have been interesting using one of those micro magnifying equipment to examine the surface better.
That's the most fair and objective look at this topic that I've ever seen. Thanks for the effort, Marc!
How do you deal with planing wood that is really barky meaning the direction of the grain is going both ways very tightly together such as the case of guawngo a hard wood in Jamaica?
Basically what you saw here. Best you can do is go with a high angle and a very sharp blade.
I love when you create these types of video And the planed one was my favorite. Thank you
I think you should bust out the microscope and show a comparison of some microscopic images of these surfaces.
it actually makes sense, when sanding your are pushing some of the removed material back into the wood, averaging the color basically. when planing your just remove an even ribbon smoothing the surface, so no "averaging" of the wood color/grain
Love the mark on your nose Marc. I get that after sanding as well :)
That wood is AMAZING! What kind of wood is it anyway? I don't think I heard you mention it...
Walnut from Goby Walnut.
Thanks for asking! I was wondering the same thing.
I get those lines from the scraper when the burr is uneven or dull. When it's sharp it doesn't do that.
Wow, that was eye opening. thanks for sharing. gonna have to invest in a good plane and start using it more
It would be difficult to not like any of these. What fantastic pieces of wood :) The planed does look a bit better though to me ॐ
Is a planer finish, , hand or machine, like 120grit or can it be like 400 grit? have Juglans HIndsii, Nor Cal Black Walnut in the yard. So I bought a mill. First I cut down some trees in 2019. Now I'm milling it. And recently I began working it. I just sanded a 60"x16" by 1/2 thick" piece..... It was about 6 hours to sand 6 sqft from 400grit to 1200 grit. And 0000 steel wool seems to be like 1400grit 'cause I can see a difference and 1200 grit gloss is High. I need a planer that that smooth things out to 1200 grit. Or close to 1200. Am I Dreaming?
Great test! Very informative.
What about if you sand up to 800 grit?
The more you sand the more you clog the pores. The "clarity from a hand plane board comes from the fact that the fibers are severed cleanly. Wood isn’t hard enough to keep abrading with finer and finer grit. In other woods, raw wood doesn’t polish well. Now if you add oil or some substance that hardens then it can be polished up. But sanding wood to 800 isn’t going to do what you want it to do and it’s a ton of work.
First video i clicked on after searching and its all i wanted see an hear. Thanks so much!
From Quebec, Canada, Thanks for all your video. It's helpful
Why this was Plane O’l informative stuff right here !!! Right down to the nitty GRITty :-)
I tell you, Spags really "Bearded Dragon" that hand plane in this demo. Would you agree William Lutes?
Stanley Pearse AbosoLUTESly !
Yep he PEARSEd that one
oy vey!
Agreed! I wonder what the results would be if sanding to a higher grit. Also what would the results be if you tested on not so figured samples or lighter wood. I would think that would bring the results closer together. Sometimes sanding is just easier once your project is assembled even with the dust and time........Great video
Very informative, I think it’s time to get myself a good quality hand plane.
Thanks for doing this test. It's really impressive to see the difference.
Just so newcomers know. When people say "clarity" they mean a surface that looks like it has depth. Figured woods almost look 3 dimensional on the surface. There is an iridescence to a well planed board. It almost shimmers in the light. A really sharp plane can produce a surface that is almost glass-like in its reflectivity. That is to say you can see mildly clear reflections in it. They aren’t super high resolution reflections, to be fair. But wood prepared any other way isn’t reflective at all because it’s simply not that smooth of a surface.
Wood isn’t hard enough to polish (sand) to a high level of smoothness like stone or metal is. With the latter two you can just keep grinding the surface with finer abrasives until the scratches are so small they don’t diffuse the light much and that’s what we call "smooth" which produces reflectivity. Wood will simply crush and continue to yield as you scratch (sand) it. The other issue is that as you abrade it finer and finer it clogs the pores. This prevents it from absorbing finishes as well.
The sad thing is that figured woods are the ones that benefit from planing the most but they are the most difficult to plane. The more interesting the grain pattern the harder it is to cut cleanly. Some are literally impossible to plane well. Even with the sharpest high angle blades with the throat as closed as possible.
sir accidently acid have fall down on my bathroom wood shleves what should I do now ..its eating or giving bad shaping to wood ..how can I end it
Wow, gorgeous wood
I guess it's no accident that woodworkers in the Japanese tradition often finish their pieces by planing. For an example, see Ishitani Furniture - ruclips.net/channel/UC7FkqjV8SU5I8FCHXQSQe9Q. Oh, and thanks for doing the experiment and sharing the results!
so many different grits we could go with though.. 80-100-120. that would open the pores. That is standard for wood floors. I wonder if the sanded sample you show here, is because the pores closed more with the higher grit?
Very beautiful wood structure! What is it?
Great information Marc, This sample was just amazing... I don't think we were able to see the extent of the variation in the video as much as you have in your shop but from what I saw I would definitely go with the plane...
That was a great demonstration. I think you'll find a cabinet scraper will give you an even better job than a hand scraper or even a low angle plane, especially on complex figured wood. But with hand scrapers, it really depends on the quality of the burr you place on the card.
It is not true that a scraper is better than a planer or sanding. All three can offer a super smooth finish and it is preference of the craftsman.
Why stop at 220 grit? Also, it seems odd to call RO sanding "hand-sanding".
With hand planes and scraper I get a holographic effect that I don't get with sanding.
Yes that is what people mean when they say clarity. I call it iridescence, personally.
Somewhere Shannon Rogers is saying "welcome to the party pal"
+David Nichols he should check out my book. I think it’s in the top 3 under Hand Tools on Amazon. 😂
Good information. It was very interesting to see the differences. Thanks for sharing!
Would it be okay to use a bench planer to run my unfinished hardwood floors through and then stain?
100% better looking with the hand plane IMHO. And to my eye, the scraped finish had slightly more congrats than the sanded comparison boards. The ray-fleck and shatoiance was definitely shown better with the plane. Of course, the low angle is best for highly figured woods, there might be significant tear-out with a standard bench plane that would leave a more ragged surface. Also, the iron must be as sharp as possible to get the best results. Beautiful wood with any finish. I'd love to see a finish comparison on a similar plane vs sand-paper with a hand rubbed laquer vs a BLO French polish. The two best finishes in my opinion. Then with the depth of finish we could really see the best of both surface prep methods. Just a thought.
Thanks for sharing. Also, a good highly figured maple 🍁 would show a great comparison, I'm sure. Maybe even a dark stain on half to see the effects on sanded vs planed? Oh my mind is racing...
Why didn't you bring up burnishing? Good vid.
To further the experiment, try only sanding to 150 or 180 and see if you can even tell the difference. Also... why are you spraying lacquer on top of a hard wax oil??
For the sake of a quick experiment. :)
The scraper wasn't near as sharp as it could have been or it would have produced a surface as glassy as the plane, unless that was a soft wood.
Nice comparison. Nice to watch.
Greetings from Germany.Arne
Mark, What about "feel"? does one "feel" smoother?
For me, hand planing is ultimately the way to go, though sanding has its place. Hand planing equals NO DUST and the surface is virtually ready for finish which is why I prefer hand planing. I also prefer wooden hand planes....so you are planing and essentially burnishing the surface at the same time. The final surface is simply unbeatable....IMHO..
Woot hand tools for the win! :) You probably shouldn't let Shannon see this.
Hybrid woodworking makes the most sense to me. What do you want to do? What is the best (today) tool (for me) to use. As I grow my hand planing and chiseling skills sanding is becoming a smaller part of my journey. Thanks for showing the differences in the finishes.
I am considering a planer but am concerned that the standard 12 or 13 inch you get for $300-$600 at the box stores will not be wide enough for most of my projects. I don't have space or money for a planer that is 20 inches are more. What would you suggest?
A router sled would do the trick. It's more work than just sliding it into a planer but really well suited to larger slabs.
Not sure if it has already been asked, but I have heard rumors that you "must sand" before applying finish (even with a planed surface). Something about the glossy planed surface not absorbing the finish as well. Any truth to this statement, or is that an old woodworker's tale? Or are some species of wood just more of a challenge to plane, and so sanding becomes a better alternative?
I like testing those things that are taken as tribal knowledge. I may just have to brush up on my plane and sharpening skills now!
Not sure the results would be different, but if you went up to 320 or even 600 grit? Time/mess aside sanding is a lot less intimidating than potentially gouging the heck out of a work piece you've put some serious time into.
Not sure the results would be different. They might be worse actually. The higher you sand, the more you burnish the surface and the less finishes absorb. Sanding to a high grit is one of the ways we help prevent blotching and we make end grain appear lighter. One a highly figured board, that means LESS figure pattern. So I'd guess you'd accomplish the opposite of your goal by sanding to a really high grit.
So my question, why doesn't a card scraper produce a surface like a hand plane? Does a card scraper just make too fine of a shaving to really slice the wood? A sharp scraper makes shavings. Though I guess the slicing of the wood is different.
Could be a few things at play. But one thing that comes to mind is the way the scraper is tuned. Perhaps mine was tuned for too fine of a cut. Maybe if the cut were deeper, it would act a little more like the hand plane. Would probably require more experimentation to know for sure.
As a true beginner in finish wood working (former framer/builder) I could not agree more with the quality of surfaces achievable via hand plane and there are many a snob out there which turn many of us beginners off so thank you for acknowledging the hybrid approach and not brow beating us like the purists tend to do. Many people balk at the hand planing because of the cost factor associated with getting into it but I jumped in and went with the Lie Nielsen No 62 low angle jack plane kit as a christmas gift as it came with three blade types, and a good how to video. I still use my belt and oscillating sanders when needed or when using ply as the veneer cannot take a plane blade (too thin). The materials definitely come into play for the beginners also as many of us use veneered ply for larger surfaces as we are learning so we don't blow it (which we do anyways) and ruin a big piece of solid wood and cost ourselves a lot of money. Always things to consider but I appreciate you staying neutral and making this an argument/brow beat/superiority complex type video but instead sticking to results.
Fantastic experience. I'm looking at this more from a different perspective for renovating a table finish without having to retort to the usual heavy chemicals (stripper, oxalic acid, white spirit), and this is where investing in a high quality planer might just work cleanly ? Assuming it's solid wood (not veneer) and i am only planning to renovate the flat top surface (not the legs or curves) then would a planer only approach + stain + finish work ?
Great video Marc. Agree that a planned finish is generally better imho. Would love to know your opinion on sanding to finer than 320 grit. I've heard that it can restrict the absorption of a finish. But there are respectable RUclipsrs who go to 600 grit. Cheers, Gary
Why did you sand the pieces first? I always use edge tools before I sand. The abrasive residue in the pores after sanding isn't doing the sharpness of the edge tools any favors. Card scrapers are the smoothest finish you can put on a piece of wood, but the edge has to be smooth, even and lightly burred. Check out some RUclips videos or Google an article by Tage Frid. The reason the scraper left lines could be that the edge was not correct or it was damaged by the abrasive residue in the wood. Your finish highlighted the grain for demonstration purposes, but, in case anyone gets any ideas, oil followed by lacquer makes a really cool finish, but it won't last because the oil will eventually dissolve the lacquer. I did that to a kitchen table and had to remove the lacquer after it turned to jelly many years ago.
Incredible comparison. Thanks. I don't like actually doing this kind of experiment so I like the fact that you did it for me. Thanks again.
hand tools rule
When the EMP hits.... power tool users will have a garage full of boat anchors.
How does a planer machine with a helical head stack up?
Excellent test and comparison. Also, a handplaned surface will hold up better in wet environments due to the wood being cleanly sheered, rather than abraded/torn (however with modern wood finishes I suppose it doesn't make much of a practical difference).
I would be interested in seeing the results of a scraper plane because I don't see those used often, but they seem more comfortable to use than a scraper.
The only problem with sanding is it compresses the grain of the wood. You need to spray the surface with hot water between sanding and let it air dry. This will lift the compressed grain and ready it for the next finer grain of sandpaper.It takes several grades of paper and a lot of time to do it that way, while a plane, providing it is razor sharp, can do it in one pass. I generally go with the plane for flat surfaces. For curved stuff, including gun stocks, sanding is just about the only practical way it can be done. Scraping needs a very uniform grain in the wood, but seems to be a happy medium.
I've never planed anything but the planed surface is much nicer than any of the others.
I find that If you use a thinner scrapers you get smaller shavings and a finer finish and it is as good as a plane (especially on dificult wood). Thick scrapers leave a rougher surface especially on soft woods, and you can finish with a blunter scaper to burnish after wetting and you'll get a super result. Super experiment but it's imporatant to take into acount that scrapers come after planes in the finishing process and so does sandpaper.
Great vid. Unfortunately, many newcomers to the woodworking world don't realize the value of good hand tools. It's great to have guys like you give them the heads up. I love my power tools more than the next guy, but I always go to the hand tools to massage the perfect fit or contour.
Plus, many people don't realize that they don't need a $1,000 jointer if they're not doing production work. I used my #4 Stanley plane for many years, and still do, using the jointer only when I have a lot of board feet to clean up.
Keep up the great work!
You forgot to mention something on the argument between sanding and planing. I agree with what you have said, but left out some of the things that are pretty important. First sanding does not have a lot of skill involved where as using a plane requires some skill and knowledge. Also sand paper is sand paper is sand paper just different grits, where as which of the 3.5 trillion types of planes do I use? (It's sarcasm guys.) And set up is completely different. Grab a piece of sand paper and go at it vs. sharpening your blade to the right angles, yet again more skill and knowledge involved, set up the blade in the plane, even more skill and knowledge involved. Like I said, you are completely right about the comparisons and agree with you, but the part where you talk about the quickness of planing and the ease of doing so I thought was a little misleading and you might have overlooked those aspects.
Well a few things. And I think it's all about perspective. If you think sandpaper is just grits, you haven't shopped for sandpaper recently. There are MANY varieties of materials and styles of sandpaper. Some with coatings, some without. Two different grit grading systems as well. Planes, on the other hand, are very simple. If you're goal is to smooth, there are only a few options. And while a hand plane does require more skill, I don't see that as relevant to this test. It's a question of results. If you want a particular result, you'll put in the work to achieve it. As for timing, I can have my plane honed up and ready to use in about 2 minutes. That is, IF it even needs to be honed. And once it's ready to go, I can knock out a board in mere seconds with just a few strokes. With sanding, you have to proceed through at least 3-4 grits before you're done. Then you have to do it all over again on the next board. When it comes to final surface prep and time, sanding doesn't even come close to being as fast as planing. It's no contest.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, if it came across that way I apologize. I would still say that while there are only a few options as far as planes go, that doesn't mean that I would know which one. Do I use a Stanley 52 or a number 4 Jack plane? There are so many options that someone coming into it new wouldn't know what they do. I know there are many applications for them but it's hard to tell which ones are for what. This is a topic that doesn't need to be addressed in this video as a whole, just as a note that it would take more skill and knowledge. I'm sure it's faster for you having experience with it, but for some one that is just learning on their own it's not so simple.
I guess I should have said that I'm new to this and trying to learn, and that from what I've learned so far about planing, which is limited, is that it is a more complex thing than just sand paper. You are right though it is about perspective, someone who has been doing woodworking for some time vs. someone trying to learn from scratch with nothing other than videos from RUclips.
another great video product my brother !!! Please tune up your scraper my friend !! that things garbage : )
Great video !!!! Hand plane, definitely !!!!
Problem is good planes are incredibly expensive. Doesn't seem fair to compare them given the massive difference in acquiring a set of good hand planes.
I spotted box of machinery mover box. I just bought few. Reveiw?
I agree to everything you said, but.... I am still not such I trust myself with a handplane to finish a surface. That first tearout will hurt like hell.
ooooohhh Live or Memorex??? Wow the planed and scraped sure do pop and have more ... definition for want of a better word. Thanks for the great video Marc!!
I have a horizontal redwood fence made from 1x4s that needs a new layer of stain. Would a planer be ideal to get me down to a new surface of wood again or would a sander be better suited for this job? I figure it would be a lot faster on a planer
I completely agree that a planed surfaced of a razor sharp plane leaves a superior surface that is also faster to get. I only found this out once I tried out planning. I used to sand like all my power tool user friends. It's just better and easier once you know how to sharpen properly.
so I'm thinking I should get better with my lathe tools. I've had a near finish surface with a few small ridges that I then sanded and muted the depth. Good video.
who else couldn't see the slightest difference ?
im a handplane user. and i love them infact i prefer for much use planes than sandpaper, but there are times where planes cant go easly as pronunced curves or shapes, or some finish than are really thick so you will have to sand yes or yes. but something that i notice is that glue cures better in sanded surfaces than in planed surfaces. so when i plane edges that i have to glue i give to the edges some passes in sandpaper. saluts
How about the Hitachi hydraulic planer that Ishitani uses? Would that be considered a power tool?
The scraper left some really bad streaks on the surface. It even showed through the stain.
Answered EXACTLY the questions I had about sanding. Thank you!
Thanks Mark. Informative video, would have never known.
Very good experiment!
Great idea for a comparison. You talked about the difference in look, but what about the difference in touch/feel after the finish has cured?
woo-hoo lates
I think what you touched on towards the end of the video explains why a lot of us choose to use hand planes. I like them, among other things, because I simply don't have to sand most surfaces before finishing. And since they're an integral part of the milling process for me anyway, it's not extra work to keep them in good working order specifically for this.
60 Frames Per Second heyoooooo!!!
What if you did this experiment with a very open pore wood, like red oak?
how could I use a planer to get that level of contrast on something like a Les Paul top?
Or shaved... on the thumbnail 😅 thnx for the video
ug , if only......
how to hand plane a circle:(/dowel:Plol
The scraper side was a bit better
220 grit is way to low. Take it up to a 1200 grit finish, the result would be very different.
yeah, but sanding to 1200 isn't really practical on all projects. Most people sand to 220 or 320 at best. Trying to make a realistic comparison.
even pine takes 400 grit
Guess it's time to get some nice handplanes. Thanks for spending my money for me 😊
excellent thank you. What is the species of wood?
I know this is a older video but I would like to know if using water based dyes would negate the efforts of planing. I love how dyes make the grain pop but wonder if it would create a mess with planned surface. I work mostly with QS white oak and Birdseye maple which are not fun to plane even with a low angle plane but would do it if it makes the wood glow like your samples did. Thanks
Marc, you inspired me to experiment myself. I planed a highly figured scrap of QS white oak with my Stanley 62 then followed with general finishes vintage cherry dye stain. Then I topped with SW precat laq. Results, in 98% of the board the dye did not raise the grain and retained that glass smooth feel. But in a couple small areas of interlocking grain there was a bit of fuzzy finish that the dye highlighted quite severely. Also to get the color I’m used to I would need 2 coats of dye or use toner in the finish. Any advice on how to deal with the areas of “fuzz”. Thanks again for great videos!
Difficult woods typically need high angle blades not low angle. Like 60 degree high.