WHY I'm Ditching Index Shifters in 2022
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- Why I'm ditching indexed shifters to go all friction in 2022.
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I'm kind of old, so I came up on friction shifting. You commented about being "between gears". From what I can remember, once muscle memory kicks in, you can about nail the shift every time. And if you are off a bit, you learn the sound and just trim it out a little so that it is quite and smooth. Personally, I have no current plans to go back to them, but but do still appreciate them. They just work, they are simple, you never worry about cable stretch as you said.
As another old guy, I can just remember learning to use friction shifters mounted on the down tube, and it not being difficult or being a problem. In fact I liked the ability to micro adjust. Indexed gears only became a thing for me when I started xc mountain biking. There I needed to keep a firm grip on the bars and I was doing a lot more quick gear changes.
I remember that too, adjusting based on sound and feel of pedaling, I was just the way it was back in the 30s, lol (OK, 70s)
im 47, also came up on friction shift. still have my 86 raleigh technium with 2x6 friction shift and it still has the original shifters, cables, and derailers
Once you learn your bike, the indexing is in your head.
The big question is if it's possible to shift rapidly and accurately enough with friction shifters to actually differentiate 10-12 gears.
Having 5-7 gears in that range of motion is workable, but using a friction shifter accurately on maybe a not so smooth road surface.. I'm not so sure.
I still ride a 3X7 and love it because even the indexing doesn't really have to be all that accurate, as long as you're in the ballpark the chain will hop onto the right gear, unlike 11-12 gears where the indexing needs to be spot on for it to work well, so I wonder how well that's gonna work with friction shifters.
Maybe if the lever is long enough to be able to make very small adjustments it'll work fine, but the friction shifters I've used in the past probably would be a pain in the behind to actually get (and keep) into exactly the right position for an 11-12 speed cassette...
You’ve really been speaking my language lately - you’re mixing the best of old and new. After years of indexing, carbon frame, hydro brake (and even the future shock) I am going back to my first loves with a combo of new and old tech: bar-end friction shifter in an ultra wide 1x setup, mechanical disk brakes and a metal gravel frame with room for big tires. All the best simplicity of my first bikes (even simpler with 1x) and a huge improvement in braking, gear range and tire size. Your logic here is right on!
I agree, but it really annoys me that hydraulic calipers are now cheaper than mechanical calipers! Seems bonkers to me how expensive TRP spyres are.
I have used friction for my front derailleurs on all my bikes for about 10 years. I just got fed up with hearing chain rub especially on triples. Now it’s just a quick adjustment and the noise goes away. Result 👍🏻
I did the same thing 6 months ago. Being able to trim the front was refreshing
Same! When my Campy Ergo left shifter started slipping (and i jusy havent had time to fix it or send it for repair), i slapped on an old downtube friction shifter and it is perfect! Not much incentive to go back... Right shifter is still Ergo.
Love all of this. Reminds me of ideas that sprung up in the 70's in relation to the energy crisis, culminating in the "Appropriate Technology" movement.
I often wonder where our species would be if we could get comfortable with "good enough" technology.
Keep being awesome.
I can't help but think of Star Wars tech with your comment.
Something I like about friction shifters is the ability to micro adjust the front derailer as an example, when in the large chainring in front and large gear in back most of the time you will have the chain run on the front derailer, no problem with friction shifter you just adjust it to not rub on the fly. On indexed systems you are suppose to shift front derailer and then shift rear to try and match the gear ratio you want
The obsolescence/environmental aspect of new components could lead me down this path one day. It concerns me that electronic groupsets (which will be the standard in the next 5-10 yrs) will become like mobile devices with short life spans due to software support or being tied to specific battery types that are no longer manufactured.
@RollinRat I just got another old bike runs perfectly but looks old so that’s why the switch bikes lol I can’t believe how much people waste on everything,
@RollinRat not garbage but a big useless bin usually. Would be good for charity tho.
@RollinRat The least green part of cycling as a sport? Travel to a race 200km away and back, and you have put more carbon in the air than a CF bike and all the components it will consume in the lifetime of the bike. Component choices are virtually insignificant.
That's what Right to Repair is about. Not just repairing but the fight against proprietary bs of companies and lame excuses. Also at the end of the day they are companies not sports teams They care only about the bottom line (money)
@RollinRat It is nice of you to share with them your expertise first. I guess many bike shops just hand out the marketing BS koolaide.
I went friction recently and now I’m completely sold - for all the reasons you stated here. All my bikes are now set up friction. Thanks for another great informative video Russ!!!
Same! I recently picked up an 80s Marinoni frameset and built it up using stuff from my parts bin. I had a complete 10 speed Shimano drive train...minus the shifters. What I DID have were 80s Shimano 600 downtube shifters and for a laugh I figured I'd give it a try.
To my complete surprise, the shifting works great! As Russ mentions, you're basically always in gear. The only bad part is having to reach down but I've got a pair of Microshift flat bar shifters on the way in the mail. I'm never going back.
Never have I had anything other than friction shifters. Simplicity which works. No complications, no extra expense. So many attractive new options as well. My daughter's bike has indexed shifters, so now I am learning how to maintain and adjust them. But for everything else I build up, friction is the way to go. It just takes less than you might imagine to tune in and feel your gears. Use the Force! You know you love a little friction!
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I've been raised on indexed shifters, never knew anything else. Friction shifters were relics from a bygone era for me. One of my early bike projects was an old 80s 3x7 road bike with downtube shifters. Shifting gears was such a strange experience I decided to convert it to a single speed :) Much time has passed, then I started watching your channel and since my style of riding is now closer to the party pace style, the idea to try friction shifting grew on me. I bought a microshift sl-m10 thumb shifter for my recent project and paired it with a 10s cassette and Shimano XT derailleur. When I switched shifter mode to friction it stayed like this ever since. I love it. Feels so smooth and natural and quiet. Suddenly I hated that clicking noise of every indexed shifter. And when you have to shift the whole cassette it's done not with nervous finger actions but in one smooth motion. Yes, when in friction mode you tend to miss the gears and they skip sometimes but a little adjustment on the shifter and you are set. It's always worth trying something new, in this case something old ;)
Downtube shifters are no prob, lol.
@@0xsergy Depends on your frame size - as a taller rider, my bikes have longer head tubes and the down tube is notably lower relative to the top tube than would be the case on a smaller frame, so the downtube shifters are a further reach from the natural riding position. Some riders may only have to move their hand from the bars to the downtube shifter, others may also have to lean forward, lowering their back and shifting their overall position on the bike.
My first 10 speed (1971) had friction shifting and I’ve never used anything else. Currently using Silver Shifter thumbies mounted reverse-riv style. Pleasant, reliable, maintenance free. Good decision, Russ. 😉
What kind of brand was it in 1971? I had no idea this was available at that time
@@antonijankowski3379 The bike was an off-brand aluminium framed cheapie! The drive train was also brand-less. Read my original comment... Not indexed, friction.
Great video! I’ve used friction all my life until the last two years where we (wife and I) have updated to disk breaks and sram apex road lever/shifter connected to rival derailleurs. The reason being we travel and move all the time always riding in new unfamiliar places and the ability to shift quickly and comfortably into an easier gear at high speed in traffic without the nano second of terror shifting weight and moving a hand to the bar end is supremely worth it for us. That moment doesn't happen often, we avoid traffic and we’re not racing, but if you travel, or tour, regularly it can happen often enough when conditions are less than ideal. Same goes for the disk breaks, less fuss to set them up to stop in the rain. Rim breaks can absolutely be set up to stop well in wet conditions. Just requires more attention than we sometimes have. That said, while I greatly appreciate the upgrades for what they offer, I don't like the plastic/weak feel of the Apex when shifting, though it shifts flawlessly all the time. It is also nice that it cleans up the bike a bit as far as cables and less mechanics sticking out to get bashed or caught. Again often a problem that occurs more with frequent travel than actual riding. So while I love love love our new bikes and what we use them for and wouldn't trade them for the world. I am imagining one day building up a simple, light, quill stem, friction shifting, rim breaking ran-do machine if only for the purpose of pure joy. All depends on what ya do and where you take your bike. Man this comment is embarrassingly long, just waking up after Long work day. Ride safe and enjoy life.
So true. High quality simplicity meets most needs for a pleasant ride that is also easy to maintain and upgrade. Everything in bikes seems so geared toward speed and competition it’s nice to see someone talk about what really works. Thanks.
The big change in shifting happened with the RAMPS on the rear cluster and the pins on the front chain ring. They made the shifting process so simple a machine could do it, and in the process, made friction shifting easier and more positive. When I replaced the 5 speed freewheel on my 50-year-old Schwinn with a modern 7speed cluster, shifting became much easier with no other changes.
@RollinRat Very true: I can imagine a vid on "Hidden Design Changes That Improved Bikes". Another hidden change is the switch from helical wound cable housings to today's multiple strand housings, MUCH stiffer in compression. That's probably behind the success of indexed shifters even though end-to-end housing runs are used.
Everything old is new again..... love your work. Can always get a simple friction shifter. Works with Everything and there is this weird satisfaction of nailing a seamless shift from o e gear to another 😊
During the last thirty years of road biking, I made the transition from flat peddles to clipless pedals, from bar-end shifters to integrated brake lever shifters, from rim brakes to disc brakes, and from cable-pull shifting to electronic shifting. For each of those transitions, I was a skeptic who was slow to the party. After making each of those transitions, I wondered why I had waited so long.
I agree with clipless. I'm OK with integrated shifters. Disc brakes are fine so long as you spend the money for a dual piston caliper. Though I see no great attraction for non-racing cycling. I doubt that I will ever have a battery operated shifter. The mechanical systems work too well and I hate the idea of being a slave to batteries.
Frankly, I'm tired of the marketing driven bicycle industry. The cost/benefit ratio of so many of the advances isn't that great in my experience. And I'm not a Luddite. I'm currently running tubeless (though I've gone about 90% "ghetto"). And I think I might prefer it.
@@wturber I love it all. Group rides and rough off-road I like indexed. I still ride a steel road bike half the time. However cruising around town I love friction, fixed, or cruisers.
I’m also always late to the party. I rode my 1990 Pinarello with Campy Synchro (first down tube, then brifters) and tubulars (of all things!) until a couple of years ago when I bought into carbon fiber, tubeless and Di2. I’m in my 50s and really appreciate the ease of use of electronic shifting, though I totally understand that the cost is a deal-breaker for most folks.
@@wturber I don't think electronic shifting is in the cards for me anytime soon, but as a mechanic I get to work on and use Di2 quite a bit. You can't compare the shift quality of mechanical to Di2. Even perfectly setup mechanical systems don't match the crispness of Di2. Can't say the same about AXS for the road, and haven't worked on the campy electronic stuff. But it's a no brainer that if money isn't a problem, Di2 is better.
@@dvoob what's battery life like?
For me the important question is seldom what is best. The important question is usually what is good enough.
I finally did it! 2x10 Deore MTB drivetrain with Microshift bar end shifters!! Thanks for these videos for giving me that push to do it
Russ, you're great! Love this stuff. Love these "against the grain" videos. Always good food for thought.
Finally got my hands on a thumb shifter from Microshift and it RULES. never in my bike life have I met a setup this easy and smooth. I used to be a bike mechanic, some 30 years ago, and never gone without Shimano stuff. But THIS!! don't really know why I never went this route before. It works flawlessly and does everything you say, Russ. one thing that really amazes me, is the on-the-fly readjusting. Amazingly smooth and easy. I went from indexed to friction when setting it up, and the way back was without thought or fiddle. So, like you say; it will work whenever, wherever. It´s a little like a double-edge safety razor; never goes out of style and works better. And I agree, it works fine with a clutch derailleur.
Totally agree! You should also mention this: An important capability was taken from riders with indexed. It took the feedback loop out of shifting; the human could correct for bad shifts by fine adjustment of the shifter, because we have sensory inputs and a brain to process those inputs (noise picked up by the ear, roughness picked up by our sense of touch). But with indexed shifting, this feedback mechanism was taken from us. An indexed shift has to happen in a pre-designed way ("baked in" as you say), and there is no provision for correcting any imprecision on the fly.
Totally agree! Although I don’t love having them in the bar-end position because they often hit my knees. I know you mentioned the different handlebar placement options but it would be cool if you included them visually in a video! Curious about setting them up thumby style with drop bars.
Easy with Gevenalle brake levers with bar-end mounts. You could also use a Paul Thumbie mount it you didn't want it on your brake levers
Try Gevanelle shifters...they're ace...far easier to use than they look like they'd be.
If the bar-ends are hitting your knees your frame is too small.
@@alexwilsonpottery3733 to clarify, not as i'm riding. More just a slight annoyance if i'm standing over the frame, mounting/dismounting, etc.
The only friction shifters I've tried are the old/vintage downtube ones, though there are some decent ones too. The system is so simple that it does seem effortless to set-up and maintain. But then again, a well adjusted and indexed system is so satisfying to use and the clicks are enjoyable, but it goes down to personal opinion in the end I guess. Both systems have some ups and downs.
Have friction shifters on my touring bike. Other benefits include: They're damn near bomb proof and they are super easy to adjust and fix because they are mechanically very simple.
On my road bike over 1000s of miles Ive wrecked and broken my ultegra shifters more than a couple of times, it's an expensive fix and they're more brittle than you think.
You may be crazy, Russ, but you're the good kind of crazy, no doubt. And thanks for being our man in the street for the neato and cool and all the cycling off-beat. You are the best at it, a big thanks from this supporter who sometimes gets sent to the hallway for my quips about party pace, sorry, just being an occasional wiseacre.
I returned to down tube shifting on one of my bikes after watching one of your videos. It is so much better. I am thinking of converting all my bikes to friction shifting. The main point is, the human body is capable of changing gear very accurately after a few days of practice. Also much lighter.
You don't even realize the tiny nuances aftwe awhile. Some cable/lever combinations requre that you overshoot the gear alignment a tiny bit, then trim it back. It becomes so smooth that you forget that you are doing it.
The first indexed Shimano shifters were on the down-tube and you could convert to friction on the fly if the index was off. Which was nice. Except the down-tube part.
@Kevin Sandberg: You're right. All my downtube and bar end index shifters had that index lock-out option.
I have them on my retro roadbike and actually like them a lot, I wouldn't trade them for those fashionable bar end friction shifters. Gear changes are quick and bang on every time, I much prefer that over the friction mode. (Which I can use fairly well, but I'd rather spend 5 minutes to adjust the cable tension every few weeks than spending 2 seconds more to feel out the gears every time I'm shifting..)
I have a set of RSX stis that I'm debating putting on that bike, but I'm not sure what condition they are in and the downtube shifters just work awesome..
There are electronic shifters starting to appear on aliexpress where you can set how many gears the rear derailleur moves in software. Shimano should pay attention.
Through time I've started to develop similar thoughts about bike industry and industry in general. If you mix hype culture and shortage due to the world falling apart, you get a crude scenario. I've been trying to cope with the fact that my bikes could become less "legit" with less racing oriented parts, but I now realize that it's something I could be proud of, a statement against the state of the art in marketing bullshit
As a stubborn and grumpy old man, I have grown increasingly irritated with the exponential increase in cost of bike components for what is, IMHO, only a marginal improvement in performance. And I like the idea of having a shift system on my bike that would allow greatest flexibility if the wheels finally come totally off of our glorious global supply chain.
Asks bike shop guy.
#1. Does it make getting groceries any easier.
#2. Is it shiny, sparkly and makes me smile.
No and it only comes in black.
while waiting for parts for my grx gravel bike, all summer, have been riding my old steel road bike with friction shifters. took the front deraileur off too. = no more frustrating, chain rub, no more deraileur adjustment, simple, easy, reliable. i love it
been the only way to make a mtb deraileur work with the 46t cassette i put on this 1988 marinoni. no worries
I didn't start with friction shifting. I got into it around 2010 or so, but I've never looked back. I've never tried it with more than 8 speeds (I've never needed more than 8; I run 11-28 by 42/28). Sometimes I think about going up to 9, to expand my current 11-28 cassette to 11-32, so it's nice to hear that more gears is actually easier to shift rather than harder. But yeah, I love being able to shift many gears in one fluid motion. I love the low maintenance. I like the feel of friction shifting. I also do appreciate the small but real skill component of friction shifting. It makes me feel more in tune and connected with my bike. And yeah, it's super cheap and simple. It probably is not ideal for competition cycling, but I don't compete and never plan to. I like simple, efficient, and cost effective equipment. Friction shifting fits the bill. I don't intend to ever go to index shifting. JUst no need for it. Indexing is nothing but downsides for someone like me.
You might be overlooking something:
Not all RDs parallelograms or geometry is equal. So the same cable input might translate into a different sweeping distance on any given system (i.e. 7x / 8 x and so forth).
Cable pull amount is therefore the active ingredient of indexing shifters for each system, but geometry might be the secondary one.
IF you go completely friction and not indexed at all, you might still get them to work, of course.
Right, but this just essentially means that a given friction shifter (with a fixed amount of total cable pull, from end to end of its sweep) _may_ have a max # of speeds with a given rear derailleur (given its geometry will dictate a certain amount of left-right movement over the shifter's total cable pull). That said, given that cassettes with more speeds are generally only _slightly_ wider (since cogs are spaced more tightly - e.g. a 12 speed cassette is _not_ 12/9ths as wide as a 9 speed), I think most combos will sufficiently cover the cassette range, unless you are using derailleurs specifically designed with a smaller "shift ratio" (e.g., SRAM's "1:1" series). And to your point (and Russ's), as long as the max range is sufficient, a friction shifter will be able to "find" all the speeds in between.
EDIT: just realized Russ addresses the "max cable pull" consideration of some older friction shifters @12:07
Yes, indeed, I agree that friction has less moving parts, less to wear out, and makes for lower maintenance costs. Smooth and accurate shifting takes practice, especially uphill, but is very possible. I have a hybrid with nine speed Shimano cogs, 11-32, with 52, 42, 32 on the Shimano Sora crankset. Hydraulic discs, front and rear, but separate Sun Tour friction shifters. Even though I have a modern Ultegra rear derailleur, (with some carbon fibre bits), it works very nicely, once the new chain is worn in, as long it is routinely cleaned and the chain is well lubricated. The Sun Tour shifters were less than $25 for the pair, and have needed little maintenance, (occasional tightening). On my road bike, I removed the Campy brake/shifters, installed a used brake lever (old Shimano Ultegra, eighties), and mounted the same cheap Sun Tour friction shifters near the apex of my drop handlebars, outboard. Kept the 52 39 chainrings on the front, and again used 9 speed on the back, 11-32, but this time used a Sora rear derailleur. Worry free, practically maintenance free, and super cheap. After all, I started cycling to work because I couldn't afford car insurance, I needed a cheap way to get to work. The more complex bikes become, the less they serve the needs of the working poor.
Bar end 11 speed with friction option is my go to shifter as well 😁 Takes some learning like you mentioned but it’s surprisingly easy once you get the up-up idea 😉 the cost can creep up though when you factor in shifters, levers, cable calipers, compressionless housing, etc compared to a hydraulic setup all inclusive… but you’re on point. Those were just my considerations and I still went with the mad max setup 😆
@@sindlero I have the trp levers. They’re ergonomic and have a short reach.
I’ve gone back to an Italian steel bike with down tube shifters and I love it, after a few rides it’s second nature and I’m just as fast on a bike that cost a fraction of my carbon bike!!!!!
I just put my modern fizik seat on and that’s it, I’ve come to the conclusion that most “advances” are gimmicks.
thanks for being a great resource! It's obvious that you know what you're talking about. I say that with 56 years of cycling and over 400K miles under my belt. road, dirt, touring , racing , commuting. I have had every kind of drive train imaginable except 1X. recently I saw your videos about the DiaCompe ratchet friction levers attached to Gevenalle brake levers. I used friction for 30 years. I have a triple, 10spd set up on my gravel bike which I recently put the Gevenalle DiaCompe friction levers on. It is flawless. period. instantly intuitive. actaully easier to select front chainrings than index shifting. thanks. I have total confiance in your experience and info.
Oooh now I want to see videos on all the friction shifter options. Especially alt bar stuff.
Let’s fast forward 30 years. Russ will have his UNO shifter - pulling enough cable for a 12-sp cassette - on his downtube.
Hi Russ, I been restoring used bikes for several years now, using used and cast off parts. I’m always looking for an excuse to dump indexing and go friction. For no more
than $20 I can get a set of “OK” quality friction thumbies. Keeps the cost down and allows me to mix & match parts. This is all you need for “around town” bikes.
Whats the name of the model of component you talking about?
You rule Russ!! Keep fighting the good fight!
Something to think about…for those of us that jumped on the gravel train because you could “ride everywhere” but you realize you would actually like to switch from drop bars to swept back bars like Jones H-bars…the friction shift is a life saver. Instead of having to buy a new derailleur, you can just swap to a friction and the bars and find some new brake levers and you’re good to go.
hi I am big fan, I bought a flat bar all city space house 650B with a 1 x 10 Microsoft Advent X rear mech. I rode for a week and then upgraded with market place used parts a Ritchey drop bar, micro shirt bar end shifter, all-city interruptor brake lavers, my 2009 drop bar bar brake lever which came off of my Kona honky tonk and TRP HY/RD cable actuated hydraulic brakes. That was phase 1 of the upgrades. Phase 2 was the installation of a hollow tech bottom bracket with a new GRX double ( save the front derailure! ) it shifts and very compatible. Thank you for the creativetivity. I get compliments on my set up, it just a practical simple and it works set up. Thank you
Switched from brifters to Retroshift (now Gevenalle) in 2007 with 9 speed Dura-Ace shifters. It was so wonderful getting rid of index shifting in the front, which IMO should never exist (although there's an argument for electronic with auto trim, but I'll never have a non E-bike that I'll have to charge). When I needed a new rear derailleur after a crash in 2020, I went to 11 speed Microshift with GRX 810. But where I completely disagree with Russ is rear shifting, I'll always use index in the rear. Yes, it's great that when things go wrong, I can switch to friction to get home, but it's just great to get into the ride & not think about trim in the rear. Plus, with the Gevenalle system I dump 5-6 gears at a time easily at the crest of a climb and won't need to fiddle with trim while recovering from the effort. Not to mention there is much more wear & tear being between gears in the rear, where as being off in the front usually just means a liitle FD rub. Just my $.02. Oh, and I don't have issues shifting the rear while standing up with Gevenalle.
I ditched the index since my last tour in South America in 2016; now running exclusively friction shift and 26 inch. I've been riding since 1986 and witnessed all the booms and bursts but nothing beats the simplicity of physic.
Yay for Microshift, yay for single speeds!
I hated friction shifting on my first bike, a 10-speed Peugeot with the shifter on the downtube. The cable would pull against the shifter and as it loosened the precision of shifting got worse and worse. Every time I stopped, I was trying to tighten that cable. Index shifting made bike riding a lot more fun and easier -- eliminating a constant, nagging problem created by the friction shifters.
Having said that, I enjoyed this video, and you raised several good points. I believe I will convert one of my bikes to one of the systems you recommend here. Thank you.
That’s a great explanation and it makes a lot of sense but where I ride, there’s a lot of short, steep climbs that are followed by short descents. I shift A LOT. Bar end shifters definitely wouldn’t be good. Maybe something thumb-operated would work. The friction-part doesn’t scare me. I do love the low-maintenance aspect. Great info again!
Absolutely agree - just recently built up a Rockhopper with Deore XT clutch 11speed deraileur and microshift bar end. It just works.
Maybe this will change after my 20s, I really appreciate the ergonomics of an indexed brifter on a drop bar bike. For me a better compromise to make in order to achieve a reasonable price is in drivetrain speeds. 10 speed sram, and even better 9 speed Shimano have built in "mullet compatibility". Brand new Shimano 9 speed brifters and derailleurs can be had for $200 or less brand new.
Your video really sparked an interest so I'm going to give the Gevenalle levers w/ friction shifters a try on my 10 speed cyclocross bike. Already placed the order for the parts. According to the Gevenalle video for CX use friction shifting offers faster shifting across the cassette. I already had a Retroshift BURD rear derailleur I bought years ago and never used. I have cable disc Yokozuna hybrid calipers already too. I'm excited to set this up. Your views on using components that make more sense because of their ease of maintenance and availability at an even lower cost than the most common big brand stuff are welcome and if I like this setup I will be another voice in your behalf. Thanks for making these videos.
Gevenalle takes a little bit to get used to, stick with it, after a short time you’ll love the quirky ugly awesomeness that is Gevenalle
@@Ace-sv4tu I got the bike built up with the new components yesterday. The BURD RD with the Wolf Tooth Roadlink, had to use the link because I put on a 11-32 cassette. Indexing is spot on. Campagnolo CX 10 Carbon Crankset 46/35. I took the bike out for a couple of miles and climbed some steep hills and descends and I am pleased. Very pleased. It only took me about 10 minutes to get used to shifting and braking so I don't see any downsides. When I put my hands on the hoods these things feel solid as a rock, they are kind of hard but I like the feel, better than the Campy Centaur levers I was using. I think I'm ready to race.
I was trying to build my bike with indexed bar-end Suntour Accushift, but didn't realize until the bike was built that I had paired accushift shifters with an accushift plus cassette. It's another example of the finnicky compatibility issues between systems of indexed shifting. Even though the shifters and cassette were both 7-speed, it wouldn't shift through the cassette unless I ran the shifters in friction mode. Not only was I forced to use friction, but I decided at that point that indexing was stupid. On a 7-speed friction system it's true that it's easy to end up between gears, but if you ride your bike frequently you learn how to shift by feel. You can also always look down at your derailleur to see if your chain is straight. A similar issue of something being slightly out of alignment on an indexed system would be ride-ending.
I dig where Russ is stating a base logic re shifting, he's explaining the mechanics, super educational.
That said, I stay with index for time 'on the shift'. I will never go past 10sd because11 12 on up are weaker drivetrains, narrower chains more likely to break and everything prone to wear. Thanks Russ, totally 2x and much PLP wisdom.
For drop bars, the choice for levers without shifters is really small. My hands just like GRX hoods better than the Tektro’s (and the like). It is a point of contact, so just as people are fussy about saddles or pedals, they also want a brake hood they like. For flat and alt bars, I think this all makes sense for non tech terrain, but for bumpy singletrack, friction is pretty finicky when the bike is in rodeo mode.
Yeah, I once tried my friend's bike with bar-end shifters and it was pretty fine all around except for tiny brake levers hand space. As it was supposed to be an offroad bike, loosing grip was way too easy.
Exactly my thought! Friction shifter is great in cruising mode when you no rush to urgently upshift before the sudden uphill. I wish there were friction shifters with customizable add-on indexed plates. Read my dedicated comment on that to learn more.
Shimano 600
The answer for me there was to eliminate drop bars. I ride with a vintage Scott AT4 Pro with bar ends centrally mounted. How often do I see road riders on their drops? Almost never.
@@atexnik Ahh, but with an indexed thumb shifter you can sweep all the gears in one swell foop.
Killer information and breakdown. I just lost my SRAM index shifter and I'm in Mexico. Hard to get. Maybe friction is the way to go. Thanks, Russ.
Like there aren't bike parts in mexico ffs
@@puntoycoma47 Very hard to find where I am...yes.
I'm older, and I do sometimes feel nostalgic for the old friction shifting (downtube in my case). But surely it would be worse in the era of 10,11 or even 12 cogs on the back, not better as you argue. I remember that six cogs were covered by a 90 degree movement in lever (15 degrees per gear) and that could now be as low as 7.5 degrees per gear with 12-speed cassette. I think it would be easier to mess up than ever, because more precision is required. In the old days we used to pull the lever a little too far and edge it back until any noise stopped.
Front friction shifting was the best. Slam forward or back. Hand off the bar for two seconds max.
Until you’ve actually tried it I’d withhold judgement. I thought it would be worse but it simply isn’t. A total freakanomics misconception.
As you kind of pointed out It depends a lot on the actual shifter, if you try and use an old friction shifter from the DT era to operate 12 gears, its doable but it will take some time and finesse (some have difficulty holding the tension of modern derailleurs in the bigger cogs too). A later shifter made with more gears in mind that has a larger cable spool and a more sophisticated tension system (basically any produced in the last 10 years) become really easy and intuitive to operate. Another thing to consider is the pull ratio of the RD Vs. the size of the spool. RD's that need to pull more cable per shift may run out throw at the lever on a small spooled shifter before you hit all the gears, and ones that pull very little will hit all the gears but "waste" half the throw.
@@PathLessPedaledTV I think the point Is why the hassle? You’re already saying you’ve tried this and that bar end. That means one is buying numerous parts to find the correct one. Less distractions and muscle memory. Vintage shifters are also not cheap. I know it’s opinion. I’m just making a counter argument.
Oh. Chinese shifting companies are getting much better. It’s at a fraction of the cost - wire or electric. Yes, sensah is becoming popular, but I just saw a company called Wheeltop which makes a flat bar EDS totaling for $300 on flat bars which can be programmed via app 7-13 speeds. All wireless. If they made a drop bar shifter, wow. Just have to look out there. My two cents. Supply chain problems are an issue, but there are solutions.
I go even simpler, 2×setup 26/38 to a 12-36 9spd cassette. Most of the time I use it as a 1× so both front chainrings can be narrow/wide teeth, no front mech and just manually change in the rare times I need the 26 tooth chainring, more durability less complication.
Good to see someone not following the party line.
With older index shifters, I've often ended up changing them to friction mode when the indexing gets out of adjustment. Glad I've never had an expensive index system that doesn't have the friction option.
Yeah. I love my metallic silver Sharpie. Marks on the shifter ring twister thing. Ignore the original marks.
Great explanation. I love my bar end friction shifters w/my rapid rise derailer. The key is to have a few plastic washers b/c they do break sometimes.
I was cynical going into this video, but this was really well explained and I'm actually now quite interested in trying friction shifting. I like simple, elegant engineering and hate the way groupsets (and the bike industry as a whole) are going to be honest... Sounds like friction shifting is worth a look for me. Nice one Russ 👍
Friction shifters are the way to go if you're not racing, thanks Russ, great channel
While I love some things about friction shifting, some are just inconvenient making shifting a bit more inconvenient means folks tend to shift less. Like anything, it's a use case and pros cons conversation.
I would put shifting into 3 categories.
1. Friction and indexed bar end
2. Integrated indexed shifting (brifters or STI levers)
3. Electronic
With each, these things are potential on a sliding scale....some are more rhetorical than others
1. Friction or IBE :
slowest shift,
most inconvenient shift (reaching or modified hand/body position to shift).
Bombproof: even bent derailleurs can be worked with and slight Friction adjustments can eliminate rub.
Limitations on higher speed count cassettes
Cheapest
2. Indexed integrated:
Shift from multiple hand potions on the bars and body positions.
Much faster shifting.
Potential for levers breaking or bent derailleur causing need for new parts and some great adjustment skills. No on the fly repair may leave you stuck in one gear.
Much more precise chain placement on the cassette which has implications for shift smoothness, speed, and wear of chain/cassette
Much more expensive incrementally when gear number increases
Can handle the latest higher number of speeds cassettes well
3. Electronic.
Theoretically the most likely to break....though I've yet to hear it leaving anyone stranded.
Fastest, smoothest, easiest shift and tactile pleasing.
Most expensive.
Best at handling all new high speed number cassettes.
Will optimize wear of components by exact chain placement (by how much ???)
Needs charging.
Shifting can be more easily done in even more hand positions because it is pushing a digital button not actuating cable.
No cables to get gunked up and sluggish.
Totally with ya Russ in that "you don't need these" but after touring with bar ends and a 3x8 for ultimate bomb proofness I so love the STI levers. Electronic is just an embellishment on everything great about indexed brifters.
What I love about STI levers and even more about electronic is the ease and quickness of shifting....it means you shift more and at least my ride is more smooth and enjoyable. I can shift in the drops and from the hoods where I ride a ton of the time and when I need to dump gears to climb it is quick and smooth so I can keep a nice cadence. I'm going to ride just STIs and electronic for a while and just see if I ever have any problems that I've been theoretically fearing.
Shifting is fun....I like lots of gears....I, like 2x and 3x too. Unless I really want to go supa party pace then 1x with a max 32 ring is just fine 😉🤙
I set up a 10 speed with bar and shifters with the fixie brakes that were set back a little bit. The breaks were placed in between the middle finger and the ring finger. I first cut a groove on the inside of the clamp to allow the cable from the shifter to pass through the break clamp. I then made a metal sleeve from a strip of an aluminum can to cover the shifter cable between the break clamp and the shifters. I then wrapped that up with tape. I added foam padding to level it out out before I put the grip tape on it.
The cables were a bit tight around the bends. I experimented with flipping the breaks.
I'm quite old school and I ride steel bikes with alloy rims and calliper brakes. I have however moved from down tube shifters to brifters for the convenience of not letting go of the handlebars. But the way bike design seems to be herding everyone into the race bike category, I too have been wondering if the prices continue to make sense. Where I ride, roads are often crowded, and usually rough. So till now safety is one reason I've remained with brifters without too much thought. But increasingly, I've been wondering about the Gevenalle shifters. Your video came at the right time.
Another reason for avoiding STIs: in the very cold weather the grease inside them can become too thick and make the thing very fiddly to use.
I started biking with downtube friction shifters, upgraded to indexed downtube shifters, tried bar-end shifters on a touring bike, and eventually moved to Campy ergo shifters. Never looked back. Bar-end shifters in my mind offer nothing over downtube shifters. The idea that you don't have to take your hands off the bars to shift falls apart unless you spend all your time in the drops. (And really, who does that?) The only thing friction shifters offer over indexed shifting is the ability to "trim" the front derailleur. The campy shifters offer that so no worries there.
Granted, all may experience is old, as I haven't upgraded from my old Campy 9 speed. Maybe if/when things wear out and I start pricing new stuff again I'll think about this again. What would be nice to see is a more in-depth video of the various types of friction shifters you show along with sources.
I like that Russ is simplifying his life and bikes. And now I'm waiting for when he finds an old Free Spirit in a thrift store. :)
I had a Free Spirit in the early 80's and I think the shifters said Positron SIS on them so he might not want that.
@@jprelock Okay, maybe he'll have to keep looking for a speedy campus bike with friction shifters on the stem, the bike equivalent to four on the floor. 😀
It would be nice if there was some sort of internal micro-ratchet brifters, (like the freehubs with "over 9000" points of engagement or something) that would effectively be "friction" shifters. As other people have mentioned, having to take your hands off the bars (and brakes) to shift is less safe for me. (and to head off the gatekeeping "lern 2 shift" people, I've ridden enough tens of thousands of miles on various combos of friction, indexed, thumb, downtube, grip, stem, bar end, brifter, rapid fire, etc.. to know what I prefer and how to "shift good") The brifter-like Gevenalle system seems like it might be close, but just can't get over their aesthetics (shallow, I know, but I find them ugly and would not be happy with them because of that)
If you don’t like it, you don’t like it.
Yes not the best for riding among cars in the city trying to shift while you my have to emergency brake
That's all we used growing up in the 60-70s. 10-15 speeds. Two Friction levers. Like driving a stick, once you get it you get it. Bar end shifters were so cool.
I came up on friction shifting like a number of others here. I still like the action of friction shifting, but I've never had a friction shifting setup that didn't move around on its own, both front and rear. It triggers an OCD-like reaction in me. Kudos to those who have no issues along these lines but apparently this cannot be me, including a relatively newer Clem L so it's not just old bikes for me either.
I agree with you. Indexed rear is wonderful. I still prefer the speed and control of friction front shifting. Could be due to my cross chaining habits though.
I grew up with downtube shifters, and know exactly what you mean about friction shifters moving out of position on their own - for example the old Campagnolo levers from the 1950/60s. A major refinement came out in the 1980s, maybe earlier. These were downtube levers made by Simplex, and they were called 'retrofriction' levers - once in place, they stayed put. I've never taken one of these apart, so I don't know how they work - but they're excellent. I have them on all of my bikes. They're compact and elegant - have a look on eBay, or you might be lucky and fine some NOS examples.
@@gam1471 I don't know what it is with me but all retrofriction shifters move around on me front and rear.
I waited to hear everything you said. Happy to hear that you do recognize that there are valid uses for indexed shifters. I've been riding electronic groups since 2010, I will never, ever, go back to mechanical---indexed or not.
BTW don't use friction shifters for shimano internal hub gearsets. You need indexed shifters specifically for those hubs of they have serious problems.
If you have an 8 speed Shimano internal hub, I've had the Jtek bar end shifter for internal hubs and it works great.
Except, of course, Rohloff hubs with their internal indexing. ;-)
My 30 year old Bridgestone MB-6 is interesting. It was sold with friction shift on the front derailleur, and indexed shifting on the rear 7 spd freewheel. It allows one to fine tune the front derailleur position over each chain ring to eliminate derailleur rub when shifting across the rear cassette.
YES. Friction shifting is just plain fun. You can feel your drivetrain and coax your chain to the next gear and move it back after moving too far. Index shifting takes work to setup and maintain. Friction shifters are install and go.
I picked up some downtube friction shifters for my Surly Pacer after my new-old-stock Shimano Ultegra brifters bit the dust, and it's been great. I went with downtube mostly just to save on parts, and the frame already has the mounts. Genuinely no complaints. Classic, old school cool.
Interesting take! I never thought friction would work with so many speeds. Totally hear what you're saying: brifters are far too expensive, complicated and annoying and don't get me started on electronic. Back when I last did use friction (6 speed) you get the muscle memory after a very little time and shifting is very easy. Chain never rubs because you have infinite trim. I like 9sp indexed barcons but friction solves the whole galaxy of arbitrary compatibility problems you mention. Enough is enough with all that!
I run 3x9.
And alt bars with lots of sweep.
Purchased for $100 ish a pr of MicroShift thumbies.
The left friction shifter shifts better than anything previously, and to be able to trim is just wonderful.
The right is either/or, but at the moment the index shifting is so much more precise than previous Shimano trigger shifters. Its staying as is.
When riding offroad you often can't hear the chain being misaligned on the gears, so once you pedal harder, the chain skips pretty bad. Granted, I have this on my 80s MTB with a 3x5 drivetrain and possibly misaligned hanger, so now I'm curious to try friction with 10 speed or higher.
I saw a difference even going form a 5 speed to a 7 speed. I will say 10 speed felt rally smooth never missed a gear (but I have skipped a gear). You can just feel the right gear to be in.
Russ, Thank you so much for all the info. You have made my decision for the retro rando build that is being made for me.
When they first brought in index shifters, it always seemed to me a solution to a non-existent problem. Every bike I've had with index shifters, they've got increasingly temperamental in some part of the range as time goes on. Friction shifting was just so blissfully simple and reliable. But don't listen to me, I'm an old fogey....
Someone once said that the ability to change gear while sprinting (an ability they attributed to indexed shifters) was so advantageous it felt like cheating. Not that I, an old fogey, shift while sprinting.
I have 5 bikes: My MTB is 1x8 with a $20 GripShift running a 11-42; my gravel bike is 1x10 with an option ghost ring up front (no front derailleur) for really low gears, everything else is 2x10. I did a cassette and chain change last week for $45: Made me smile (when my buddy bragged about his $320 new cassette)
I utterly loved moving to indexed shifting... It's so great just hitting the thumb levers up or down and being 'in' the gear without a thought. Friction shifting is a solution to a problem that SHOULDN'T EXIST. The crazy stupidity of incompatibility of pull-ratios between manufacturers and WITHIN manufacturers is the real problem.
Yup. Couldn't have described it better. Both have their place, but the problem is literally & figuratively a manufactured one.
Think its more a branding issue. They should really make things standard across the board.
I broke a shifter on the first day of a long "bike-packing" mountain ride. I used an old friction shifter for 9 more days. It was weird at first, but I adored the simplicity.
It was harder to do quick shifts, but after the first day - there was no skipping or missaligned gears or need for tuning.
Hi Russ - thats a real good mindset to promote. "make things less complicate and sustained"
I changed my index shifter into friction shifter for my bike. And i never regret it, its very useful and fun 🤣
I was raised and raced on friction shifting. Works great! I've used friction shifting on up to eight speed - works just fine.
I switched back to friction shifting on my recumbent bike years ago-- the long chain line and complex cable routing made friction a better choice. Friction shifting is great! Welcome to the world of retro-grouch living, Russ!
Now, if you want to go a step further for fun-- 1/2 step + granny 15 speeds are absolutely lovely without the huge cluster and without the wear of cogs smaller than 14 teeth.
I have bar end shifters on my so-called touring bike. For quite some time, I had them set for indexing in 8 speed. Well, while on a short tour, I had a minor catastrophe. I sent the chain into the spokes, and there was no way to get it out without doing some damage. I had brand new wheels with a 10 speed XT rear hub. So after slightly wrecking my cassette to free the chain, I was able to make it to a local shop. They didn't have an 8 speed cassette, but they had a 10 speed. Simple answer...put the shifter into friction mode and use the 10 sp. cassette. I've had it like that for two years now and don't plan on changing. So, I'm with you!
I've only ever used friction shifting for chainrings as I've never found an indexed chainring shifter that was worth a damn. I still use index for the cassette, but I sure miss the days when manufacturers used the same pull ratio across both road and mountain groups.
I grew up with friction shifting; I moved the rear derailleur down tube shifter on my San Rensho to my handlebar using a Velo Orange shifter adapter. It works great and looks good.
Low cost ($3 or less) handlebar friction shifters are widely available on eBay & AliExpress. I purchase about 4-5 when I’m building a new bike from a vintage frame. If one of the shifters is bad, I have spares to use and install. Plus….once the bike is built I have a low cost inventory of spares!
One of the things I love about friction shifting is that I can do it much more quietly than most people using indexing. It's a skill you develop, muscle memory. If you can learn to ride smooth and straight, maneuver your bike nimbly riding in a group or in traffic, then there is no reason you can't learn to shift accurately and quietly with friction. I love the simplicity of bicycles. New bikes are becoming more and more complex. Some don't mind, but for me, simplicity is beauty.
You have a lot of valid points...you've given me food for thought.
Well done 👊
SRAM Force user. Flawless. Very easy to get optimum cadence. As cheap as $1K for 2x. Never looking back.
Ridden x8 through x12. Decided that Shimano x9 is the best of breed, though x10 is a close second (and offers clutches, if you need them). My x11 bikes are way too temperamental, will end up downgrading them. The huge advantage of x9 was that was the last model where everything was interchangeable, road, MTB, cross, doesn't matter.
I love the friction shifters. I've used them since the 70s. Doesn't long to get the feel. No reaching, just shifting on any terrain. Be The Ball !
A while ago I had a quite nice road bike stolen, and, due to some sort of glitch with the insurance, received only a derisory pay out in compensation. Being now quite elderly, well bloody old actually, I decided that with my current level of ability, I would make do with a cheap entry level road bike in future. The one I ended up with - a 1× - did not have brifters, but used a Shimano AO50 changer, which I determined to replace with a brifter immediately. One ride changed my mind. The AO50 I discovered, apart from being a little clumsy by comparison, was actually crisper and faster to use than my brifters, at a fraction of the cost. Still indexing, and very cheap components, but they have worked flawlessy for nearly 8,000km now. A real revelation.
I have come to enjoy friction shifting on my bicycle. It has a Frankenstein drivetrain, works well, I like to change things up for fun as well. But the mountain biking we have here is what indexed shifting was made for. punchy up and down, in and out of creeks, I find myself at both ends of the cassette constantly. That's coming from an experienced rider who can push hard gears and spin low ones. I MTB a little on a friction shifted rigid bike, it is doable but an added challenge that does put a spin on the experience. In conclusion, I 100% agree with Russ, but I also see the need for index MTB shifting on a trail bike. That said, I wish I had 2x on my trail bike. 2x and friction allows you to quickly make "big" shifts.
Love the content Russ!
Great points! I am a friction convert for similar reasons.
Another bonus: they work well with mitts. My winter commuter bike is set up with mustache bars and 1x friction shifting - works great with mitts that are much more cozy than gloves. You can get out of the saddle and shift with those bars.
Great video. My personal favorite set up is indexed bar-end shifters that switch to friction if needed. I think these give the best of both worlds. I have three bikes with brifters (2 Shimano and 1 Sram) and I think they're great in use but they do require more maintenance and the Shimano ones in particular are heavier on cables where they exit the lever, and then they're a pain to change. I have two bikes that I've built up with bar-ends, one of which I built up 34 years ago and is ridden regularly. I've just recently had to replace the rear derailleur cable for the first time! I also built up my wife's bike with bar-ends.
I have first gen Dura-Ace index 6 speed down tube shifters. The cool thing about them is it has the option to switch to friction with the turn of the side dial if needed.
2oc my 5 bikes have friction shifting; they work. Having stated that, index shifting is so nice and Campagnolo at my fingertips rules! Jumping 3-4 gears and knowing when you shift it is in the right gear is good for me. Sure I know how to “ trim the gear”, but who needs it?
As an analogy, I’ve had several manual shift cars and they can be fun, but modern automatic transmissions ( minus CVT’s) are so efficient that drag racers use them exclusively.
I don’t need electronic shifting, dropper bars, tubeless tires, or disc brakes, none will improve on my ride.
I love friction and may consider changing all my bikes to it one day. People say it's too hard to get into the right gear. I say the problem is they aren't taking the time to get familiar with the bike. You have to develop the muscle memory of how much cable to pull, and learn to do it slow until you feel the gear click on.