Pathfinder 2E: Toxicologist and Poisons
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Well...it's a long one. A breakdown of the Toxicologist. Is this a good alchemist? They get the ability to poison weapons as a single action at first level, but is this as good as the assassin, rogue, drow shootist and poisoner? And what can the alchemist do about it? How about an alchemical familiar, will that in combination with sticky poison, be as good as the poison weapon feat? At first level they also get the ability to use their class DC for their poisons made with infused reagents. Is this an important ability? Well, not at early levels, but after level 8, it really starts to be significant. And then they have the level 13 ability to use a double poison. How does this stack up? All this AND we talk about how poisons work, and we end it off with a spreadsheet. Yep, a sweet SPREADY!! As we try and come up with a way to calculate how much damage this poison is really doing.
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An old video I know, but I was just looking at what the DCs were.
At level 10, I am looking at a 70% for a higher health +1 enemy to succeed a fort save (that is to say poison harms them 30% the time).. A +3 enemy with low fort (the type you might *really* want that poison to work against) might be as low as 65% success, but the AC to hit them would mean that even with flanking and all bonuses to hit we are talking still a 40% base chance to hit.. for a combined 21% effective poison chance.
I find the low level comparison make the class seem strong, but you didn't need the damage against the low level targets, and the high level targets take so little damage that its quite unimpressive. You can make up for it if you have an entire team poisoning their weapons with the same poison, but I am not sure this video really is guiding people in that right direction.
Thanks for the video. One thing that is left out is there are 566 monsters immune to poison and 163 monsters resistant to poison. Which, outside of Alignment damage, is the most common immune and resistant damage type in the game. Seeing as there is no way to bypass this or change the damage type, the effectiveness of poisons massively diminishes. The problem with this is among this list are extremely common enemies you find in every campaign, like Skeletons, Zombies, Vampires, Constructs.
My players coming from 1e to 2e were kinda shocked to learn how dangerous poisons were now. Definitely one of the biggest glow ups in the new system.
Yes!! Poison went from meh to potentially alarming. When you hit the stage 3 and the DM grabs a healthy fist full of dice, there is going to be a single involuntary gulp...that's for sure.
Another thing about toxicologist, drugs are also poisons. So you can get some silly self buffs too.
Commenting to feed the Algorithm. Hoping the Algorithm doesn't notice the Toxicologist prepped the food!
Good video!
Hey! Good to hear from you. Enjoying your show with nonats. I'm up to Bard, will finish it tonight. Gope alls good with you!!
Hey Crunch, I feel like you've left a couple of important things off this build! First off is the Subtle Delivery feat, which on a critical hit with a blowgun, turns failures into crit failures.
The second is that, if you're poisoning with arrows like you've suggested, you can pre-poison each arrow, meaning you don't need to spend precious combat actions applying your poisons.
Love the vid as always!
Yeah!! You are right. I completely missed subtle delivery...i read that feat a couple times too. That's one is pretty fantastic!! To me it seems like it would be a great feat for a non toxicologist too...if you prepoisoned your darts, you could make batches of poisons with advanced alchemy, and nail a monster with a poison dart to start an encounter.
Poison is crazy powerful and I can't wait to use it in a build!
Tip: if you access quick draw via rogue dedication, duelist dedication or otherwise, it greatly increases the action economy of a toxicologist.
Rune up one dagger or other weapon, and grab doubling rings. Then, prepare a bank of daggers each prepoisoned. Hold the runed dagger, and quick draw the poisoned ones. Once the poison is expended, drop the dagger and quick draw another one.
It's so nice to hear somebody saying something nice about Alchemist!
Please do Chirurgeon next ❤️
Hey hey, good to see you! I just saw in the new nonat video he rated them 9 out of 10 again!!
@@LegendaryCMD It's funny that he rates it that cuz because everywhere I look people say they're by a good margin the worst class in the game, which I completely disagree hahaha
Got a buddy playing a kobold toxicologist with snare specialist. It's kinda scary at high levels from what I understand.
Please tell me more about that
Does he coat the snares with poison?
@@PyroMancer2k from my understanding, yes.I will have to ask him about some more details. I have heard about it second hand from other players and the gm.I guess the poison with some traps is pretty mean.
I'd be interested to see these build guides with the new alchemist. Great vid
One consideration that was overlooked are allies! every martial character in your party is another way to spread poison to enemies. At the beginning of each fight, every weapon in the party's arsenal should be poisoned with your free option from perpetual infusion. A familiar can help run poisons out to allies if they dont mind spending 2 actions to apply it. If this familiar has Valet, Independent, and Lab Assistant (it needs Manual Dexterity for this), I dont see why they cant use quick alchemy or draw a poison from you and run it to an ally on its turn, then run back using Independent on the following turn.
I see Toxicologists more of a support role than a dps character, due to having good int for knowledge skills, on top of probable good dex for stealth or thievery (Toxicologists really have 2 stats they can ignore in Cha and Str). On top of the ability to craft other alchemical items such as elixers, bombs, or anything else in their formula book.
I've been doing poisons wrong in my game. Never had the monster make an end of turn fortitude save for potential extra damage. Thanks for this video!
Hi Crunch! I love your videos. However, the reason the "word spaghetti" happens when describing the Toxicologist's greater field discovery is because the alchemist has 2 methods of preparing poisons without using infused reagents, one being perpetual infusions, and the other being downtime crafting. It seems they didn't want players using permanantly crafted, nor perpetual infusion-based poisons to be combined for the Greater Field Discovery, so it was written as such. A better way to say this would have been "The two poisons must be from daily preparations or from quick alchemy".
About the poison weapon thing, the best thing you can do is poisoning your weapon before each fight. It works wonders with arrows.
Wow, I never thought that poisons were so strong! Thats some great numbers! And now I also know how to calculate these results, thank you!
Hey! Good to see you. Hope all is well!!
Tried the toxicologist myself once for a lv 10 campaign ended up asking my GM if I could change classes because it became very obvious very quickly that the class was going to be very situational. While good in theory with really nice AoE poison bombs in high level play poison becomes one of the most commonly resisted damages by enemies or they're just flat out immune.
This is great to hear about. While I was making this I was wondering about just this thing. Probably a good idea to make a toxicologist with a really solid back up plan. Glad to hear from you!
Not had hands-on experience with gameplay but perusing the stat blocks, I will say specializing in poison doesn't look as bad. Same problem as a sorcerer specializing in fire damage having to fight fire elementals. I will say the problem creature type are Undead and Constructs, something dm's like to default on and want to throw a few in at higher levels.
Surprised Paizo has dragged their feet for so long about adding the options for Alchemical Poisons that damage other than poison for at least high-level play. We have Aligned Oil to inflict alignment damage, but no mortal alchemist has yet invented a poison effective against an angel or devil. we have Shadow Essence that inflicts Negative damage, but even Knights of Lastwall, a book filled with tools to deal with undead exlusivly, they have not discovered a Poison that inflicts positive damage.
Don't think they need to be strong, but I do think crating a alchemical poison to deal with the Undead and one for Constructs, even if uncommon items, would round out the toxicologist's kit.
Loved the editing and humor. You can tell there’s a lot of care put into this video. You’ve earned a sub and a future viewer!
In a campaight where you are fighting mostly humans the toxicologist is great
In most general campaigns you will feel limp a lot of the time vi immune and resistant creatures
I'll admit Toxicologist was one I never really considered serous because of the huge cost of action economy as you point out he gets one attack per turn. I will admit though I did dismiss it without taking much look into the higher tier poisons and was unaware they did so much damage. Though this video mostly highlighted how good poisons were with not as much on the Toxicologist himself.
So I decided to take a deeper dive into the Toxicologist and it seems like you actually sell him a bit short in the video as you leave some things out. In the list of Must have Feats that prevent you from getting Poison Weapon Feat from MCing and unless I missed it you didn't even really say what those must haves do, I had to google them. You also don't have Tenacious Toxins on the list which can increase the duration of poisons. This can be helpful on those high damage poisons you mention as you want them to last as long as possible.
At level 16 there is also Chemical Contagion which lets you also poison an adjacent enemy to the one you hit. And if you want to allow uncommon feats from Adventures there is Shaped Contaminant which gives you some alternative usage out of inhale poisons which are sadly under represented as they make great hazards since they are 10ft cubes of gas that linger for a while. But aside from that there is not really anything in feats for the Toxicologist past 10 so it could be a good chance to Multiclass.
You didn't really touch on the Perpetual side of things either as thanks to the class feature which has you use your class DC on those quick alchemy items even though they aren't your top tier items they can still pack a punch. This lets you use your limited Infuse to either make things other than poisons or use those poisons to coat all the party members' weapons before the fight to spread the goodness around. Also it lets you swap out to have multiple poison types as sure a Stage 2 is nice but two Stage 1 from different effects is likely better. ;)
Also could look into ways to lower enemy DCs. Drain, Frightened, and Sickened were the only 3 conditions I could find that would lower Fort DC and thus make target easier to poison. So MC into something that gives you abilities to inflict these conditions would work great with the class. Though the issue is a lot of those abilities take at least 1 action which is a problem as you either get/make poison for first action, apply with second action, and stab with third action. Poison Weapon feat sorta helps but it doesn't mix with the quick alchemy perpetual ones. There really should be a one action make/apply for the toxicologist in quick alchemy. Though using quick alchemy and filling the room with inhale poison as you retreat could be fun ;).
Though this is another case where team work can help. As my cleric build posted in another video comments focuses on both buffing allies and debuffing enemies, primarily through frighten it could provide great support for the Toxicologist.
Hey, good to see you! I like chemical contagion. I wasn't sold on tenacious toxins...but, as always, I reserve the right to be wrong or change my mind. It will only increase the duration by 1 round, bringing it from 6 to 7 rounds. Chances are they will save out or be dead by that point.
I was trying to think of ways to decrease their fortitude save but couldn't come up with much. A jinx halfling could force a second save...but only once a day, but that still would work nice that one time. The yellow mold hazard give the drained and poisoned condition, which would be perfect for a poison, but doesn't exist yet in game. Any kind of bomb you could throw, like a dread ampoulle, would work great...but, then, that is going to count toward your MAP, or if you wait until the next round, the condition will be gone. At some point we will stumble into something that works great for this...just haven't found it yet.
Coating the parties' weapons with poison would be severely awesome!! That first round would be nice!
Great to see you, hope all is well!!
Yeah, if you have an archer in your party, you can expect every shot they make to be carrying your perpetual poisons.
I honestly love the cadence of this video. I have subscribed.
“Your choice for the big nerd voice.” Brilliant.
A way I like to apply poison-like damages is with a Damphir spellcaster firing arrows whose been "infused" with one or multiple necrotic radiations but it requires both an uncommon race and spell.
That sounds awesome!! Gruesome...and awesome!
My favorite combo where the DM said "Okay, go nuts" was when I was able to Dual Class Rogue with Toxicologist Alchemist.
Which free archetype would you suggest for that dual class combo?
The poison on top of having the feat that allows your weapon to deal the poison damage on say, a blowgun, 1d1, is phenomenal for a lower level character. (for those sprite players)
Death by a sprite with a blowgun? That has to be one of the worst ways to go!!
I would love to see a video like this for the other kinds of poisons you get from this class
Poison blew me away when I first read them, Mmmmmm poisons worth spending money on.
Math error!
If the goblin saves on a 12, they have a 45% chance to save, 55% chance to fail. But the overall conclusions remain accurate.
Great video!
Great catch!! I should have counted it out on my fingers!! Thanks, glad you are here!
As a sad little side note. Toxicologist's poisoning weapon feature requires you to be holding the poison. Unlike poison weapon feat. I think its an accidiental note there though.
How much better is it to be a toxicologist vs. a bomber who is using a poison
Nice video, i thought that the avg dmg of higher lvl poisons wasnt that high.
The problem, at least for me, is that toxicologist are bad at hitting things at higher levels, so if you take that in considaration, you are more likely to spend a lot of turns trying to to set up all this damage in a low lvl monster (that has at most your level +1) .
Against higher lvl, like some boss fights, this is kind of useless, since their ac and fort save would be too high. I mean, the avg number is ok, but for me is too frustating to play.
Maybe i would play a toxicologist poisoning my party fighter/ranger arrows as the day starts, wich is nice but doesn't fullfill my needs to be the poisoner.
Hey! Yep, I reached more or less the same conclusion. I like how you stated it there. I was considering some kind of sneaky elf slipping into flanks and poisoning using dex to hit. While I still think that would be really fun to play, and could be a reasonable rogue substitute for a party, it wouldn't be top tier. Still fun though. Glad you are here.
Hrmm... so at 15th level, can you apply two of the same poison for it to start at stage two with a failure?
I like that!!
You touched on my issue with Pathfinder 2e, it's got good rules and ideas but they phrase it really oddly.
So is the double poison damage all. Added up for sake of resistance or is it technically 2 instances?
i would think it would be 2 different occurrences...but I have been known to be wrong...from time to time
How long would perpetual poisons last if applied to weapons?
A Crafted Injury poison lasts until you successfully hit, critical failure, or if the weapon Strike fails to deal slashing or piercing damage for some other reason, the poison is spent.
perpetual poisons on the other hand are made with Quick Alchemy, meaning they lose potency at the start of your next turn. Perpetual Infusions don't create permanent items only Quick Alchemy them for no resources.
How many monsters are immune to poisons though?
hello guys, thanks for the content, I would like to know, how long time does the poison last on the wapon once you use 2 actions to put it? can we put poison on bombe when you are an alchimist? thank you so much
Hey Mr. McDabbles! I thought about going for a Ratfolk Toxicologist with a repeating crossbow (great action economy), since in the errata they said explicitly that you can poison ammunition. Would you estimate it to be effective to attack from range with a single poison (or 2 with the poisoner feat) ? Also, one could pair it with Rogue dedication anyways and take sneak attacker? now i am just fiddling. The thing that i thought was, i could sneak into position and then fire away either with poisoned bolts or with bombs (It's a mad rat)
Narf i should have read the comments before writing. Is the chance to hit with an alchemist (either bombs or crossbow) really that bad? :( or is there a way to make it work? I feel like a huge selling point of the Toxicologist is that you save huge amounts of money this way. The poisons get freakishly expensive later on... Edit: i even thought about somehow taking dual weapon reload from the dual fighter archetype for being able to reload 2 crossbows without putting one away, but its still kinda weird to wrap my head around X_x
Hey hey!! A lot of this kind of depends on your group. If you play with super optimized people and the DM is preparing encounters based on that, then you have to take into account the two or three points the alchemist is going to be behind the martials. Not to say an alchemist wouldn't work in a group like that, just that they would be really focused on buffing and prepping the rest of the party. Anything less than that super optimized party, however, and the alchemist can be a fun damage dealer, and I think the toxicologist would be really fun. Poisoning arrows ahead of time is definitely more optimal than poisoning on the go, even with a dual class feat like poison weapon. Personally, I like melee though. The positioning and stuff like that is a huge part of the fun for me, but, you know, different strokes for different folks. Like you said, though, firing poisoned arrows at unprepared targets...really that sounds awesome and tons of fun. Feel free to shoot back with more specific questions as you go along, I'll give you my opinion on feats and abilities, but really, that's all it is., one person's opinion. Cheers, glad you are here!!!!!
@@LegendaryCMD thank you so much for your in depth reply u are awesome! I really look forward to your great crunchy content (I already learned a lot) and I will absolutely come back at you
Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but most poison stages have a duration of 1 round. So the target would take poison damage when first exposed if they failed their save. I do not believe they will need to make another save during this same round as the duration for the stage is one round.
Am I wrong?
Yep because the end of his turn is a new round for poison
Hey, good to see you. Enjoying your latest lore video!! Great topic! For the poison, I'm not sure. It would be a great How it's played video. I leaned toward taking the effect at the end of your turn just from the wording in that end of your turn section...if you have an affliction you have to save. But, if you are afflicted by a poison with an onset duration you wouldn't save. So, I'm not sure.
poison is rather expensive though. How do you mitigate that ?
Alchemist gets daily resources to make temporary alchemy items, which include poisons