It was once a good summary but it's outdated. We now know that the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are neither the oldest nor the best. It was all fake.
It gets a lot wrong and leaves out important details. First off, the Alexandrian Texts are not older than the Textus Receptus, ruclips.net/video/S0Q39VPjz0c/видео.html And also, Westcott and Hort were not Christians at all, so trusting them with their translations is not wise at all.
You have done a really good job presenting both sides as well as you can. The Byzantine text is definitely early and homogenous, which means that it has not diverged from its archetype whatever that is, as its several witnesses do not diverge from each other. The question is: what is its archetype? Is it the autographs and how would we know if it was. As for the Alexandrian, Western, and Neutral text-types there is doubt, due to their lack of homogeneity, whether they really are text-types at all. You pointed out the huge differences between Aleph and B for example. It seems clear to me, therefore, that if they diverge from one another, they diverge from their archetype also, and so whatever their archetype, they cannot be good guides to the autographs, since they all differ.
Thanks. I was searching n searching for a video to clear this to me, didnt find and finally found this. Thanks a lot. Its such a relief. God bless you. Praise the Lord for all His works thro His people!
I learned more than I knew before, but it could be that the reason that the Byzantine type text is not deemed the oldest and representing the ordinal autographs is that at least one Roman Emperor--Diocletian--had the true texts destroyed and/or confiscated in the empire
I am a Christian and trying to learn more about the history of how we have the Bible. This was easy to understand and provided a lot of information. Thank you!
Erasmus did not call his text the Textus Receptus. That term was not used until the Elzevier brothers and is used anachronistically for earlier print editions.
Also, Only problem is that the TR is after the kjv. The TR is a Greek edition of the NT deriving from an English translation (kjv) which comes for about 6 Greek manuscript and also relied on Latin for last 6 vs or revelation It’s backwards i know.
@@avismore3938 A reverse translation done by F.H.A. Scrivener, finally printed in 1894, after Scrivener's death. Scrivener's exercise was to determine the textual critical work of the KJV translators.
Erasmus provided us with the TR, though the name came later. The KJAV used several slightly different editions of the TR in 1611 and Scrivener's job, three hundred years later, was to produce the precise TR in one edition from the several that they used. Up to that time it had not existed as one physical edition.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (KJB) 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not _soon shaken_ _in mind_, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, _nor by_ _letter_ _as from us_, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Just two quick points and a couple suggestions. First God preserved his Word according to many verses in the Scriptures. Second Desidarius Erasmus revised his work a total of 5 times to try to perfect it. I suggest you look into the writings of Hort and Wescott published after their deaths and definitely look up and listen to the testimony of repentance that Dr. Frank Logsdon gave. Dr. Logsdon wrote the Preface of the NASB version when it was first put out. It along with nearly ALL the new translations are based on the Hort, Wescott, Nestle and Aland Greek text. Then you can discern and decide for yourself what Scripture you should be using. God Bless All
The fact that NIV, CSB, HCSB, NET, ESV, NASB, LSB and many others are based on the work of these four non-real christians, it is evidence of how the enemy has blinded the eyes of most of the people involved in the work of translating these modern bible translations, what a big shame. Desideruis was used by God to bring us the real and trustworthy word of God, that's why the Reformers' translations are the way to follow.
@@joseramonperez9609So God inspired Erasmus to lie about the last 6 verses of Revelation? Get out of here with the KJVonlyism. It’s 2024, that’s a tired gag.
@@TheDmitriProject Hi, I think that God used the *_Reformers_* to give us translations in English, Spanish, German, French, Italian and Portuguese from the most truthworthy sources, the latest modern translation have cut off verses which were part of the original, the manuscripts before the corrupted *_"Alexandrian manuscripts"_*
@@TheDmitriProject Hi, I'm not a KJVonlysm at all, I'm just seeing how the modern English Translations which almost all of them are based on the corrupted *_"Alexandrian manuscripts*"_** not in the earliest ones used by the **_*"Church Fathers"_* these corrupted manuscripts are the base for these translations which have cutt off important verses which were part of the *_Scriptures_* and that's the problem.
To me it makes so much sense that you'd never find an ancient copy of a good manuscript. They'd be destroyed by just sheer use and copying. Great video I wish I saw this 6 years ago!
There is a detail that the video overlooked, but it reinforces what it supports is about an older version and much closer to the original texts: the Peshita Bible. Already in the 2nd century BC a text had been produced in Cyriac that faithfully supports what was written in the Byzantine texts. Due to this detail, the critical text has a major fidelity and authenticity problem.
@@stevenaguilera9202 I don't think so. While they are similar as in the Byzantine Text type, they are not exactly the same. Majority Text is more eastern while the Received Text is more western. The Majority Text is also based on the majority agreement of a compilation of manuscripts this the name Majority Text. While the TR contains 1 John 5:7 and Acts 8:37, the Majority Text does not. Blessings!!
@@rodneyjackson6181 Then it's clear which one is wrong. I hope you have figured that out. If you think for one split second that either of these verses don't belong in your Bible you have been grossly misled. The Majority text is wrong. As a Christian, you should be able to read the passage in Acts 8 and discern if verse 37 belongs in the passage. The same goes for First John 5:7. Both those verses are inspired words of God and should belong in all Bibles. If you don't think Acts 8:37 is scripture there is something seriously wrong with you. I hope you know the truth about it.
@@randyd9805all I did was state a fact between the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. All of a sudden you come at me with assumptions and assertions. Usually the case when someone does not like facts. Did I ever say that 1 John 5:7 or Acts 8:37 does not belong in Scripture? Nope. The fact is 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript. It was a marginal note in 1. Acts 8:37 is also minority reading and is not found in most Greek manuscripts. This is Biblical history. Erasmus did not put 1 John 5:7 in his Greek New Testament until his third edition. Fact is 1 John 5:7 came from the Latin. Bottom line is that I like both verses and read them from my translations whether in the text or the footnote.
@@rodneyjackson6181 There is zero doubt in my mind that both of those verses are holy scripture. You have taken a position on them and that's clear. Any believer should be able to read the passage in Acts 8 and discern if verse 37 belongs in that text. It was NOT added as you and some others claim. IT DOES CHANGE BIBLE DOCTRINE to remove it. If you believe in what is commonly called baptismal regeneration you may have a motive for not wanting that verse in your Bible. The TR is right and the Majority text is wrong. You cannot prove your position is right no matter how much you try. There is evidence that these verses were in the originals, but no matter what I do you will reject any evidence to the contrary. The texts that are used as the basis for almost all modern translations are not just corrupt, but extremely corrupt. We are not talking about a few verses or words here and there, but so many changes and omissions it boggles the mind that any real believer in Jesus Christ would swallow it hook, line, and sinker. Two of them are those 2 verses. There are literally hundreds more. I actually appreciate that you showed me that they are removed from the Majority Text. As many years as I've been studying and watching this, I did not know that. I checked your statement out and found you are correct using this useful website. textusreceptusbibles.com/EMTV Btw, my position is solid as a rock. I would challenge you to read at least the passage in Acts 8 carefully and thoughtfully. You might even pray about it sincerely. Does that verse belong in your Bible? I am convinced it does. If you believe it doesn't that's totally on you. Read it with the verse and again without it. textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/44008001/KJV/GNV/EMTV Notice the DATES of these 3 translations that predate the KJV. textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/44008001/TYN/WYC/COV
Great video ! I put forward the hypothesis that the manuscrits that are fewer (those who differ from de mainstream byzantine text) have been transmitted orally. It seems to be a commun practice these days to memorize large portions of texts. (the coran in it's early stages was mainly transmitted orally) I seems to me that the Alexandrian texts were not considered as valuable. They would all know that copies of an orally transmitted text wasn't as valuable as a written copy. That's the reason why they have been preserved better (not used as much as others), it's the reason why they have been forgotten in the libraries, and also why the differences between the manuscripts of the minority text are much more frequent.
One comment I should make is that the Catholic Church since 420 AD has used the Latin Vulgate. The Byzantine text was used by the Eastern Orthodox Church as they rejected the Latin translation and kept it in their original language. That being said too the Douay-Rheims is a weird middle ground between Alexandrian & Byzantine text families. It does not omit verses that are in less manuscripts in the Majority Text.
I thank Adonai for leading me to this video. This is an issue I was completely in the dark about. Byzantine vs. Alexandrian. This coming from someone who is currently comparing and contrasting all the differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text!
Well, considering the fact, that maniscripts "live" for just 100-200 years when being used activelly, it's not surprising that we don't have originals, but it is surprising that we have manuscripts that are 50-150 years older than authographs (originals). Off course, those are not full copies, but still are very important. Yes, there are chunks that are added to the texts by the scribes, but they don't effect the doctrins, like you said. And they look like additions that have roots in oral tradition. Other than that, the presentation is great! Thank you for your work!
As for the Pool of Bethesday 4:51 we have Tertullian referring to this around 200 AD and saying the angel stirred the water. This is the "west" and his manuscript references are characterized often as WESTERN Textual family. So maybe John did not have the included, but since that is EARLY tradition and belief, I tend to believe it and therefore appreciate that it is in the KJV.
I am uncertain where the number 5800 originated. Determining the actual number of manuscripts is difficult. Considering the ones in Greek: The Institute for New Testament Textual Research (INTF) in Münster, Germany has catalogued over 320 uncial codices, which are the older ones. However, many believe a few of these should be removed from the list (055 is actually a commentary; 0100, 0129, and 0192 are lectionaries; 0168 is lost; 0212 is a diatessaron; 0152 and 0153 are not manuscripts at all). The same institute has catalogued 2911 minuscule codices. These were generally created between 700 and the invention of the printing press. As of 2021, only 141 papyri fragments were known, and some of these have been judged to be fragments of the same original manuscript. Manuscripts also include at least 100 in Old Latin and many more of the Vulgate; also New Testament manuscripts in Syriac, German (Codex Koridethi, for example), and Ethiopian Ge’ez (The Garima Gospel).
Why is that we can view alexandrian manuscripts online and even facsimile are made of these types but there is no images of any of these 5800 anywhere from the Byzantine
This was an excellent and very interesting explanation of positions on both sides. This is what I refer to as objective evidence as opposed to the subjective one sided view of people like James White.
Thank you so much! I appreciate you presenting both sides. The last time I revisited this, it was a horrible experience and I gave up. I defended the NT as a whole. But I am starting to see holes in my position. I will continue to believe in good faith, that God is faithful. We are blessed to have this problem. If we can even call it a problem.
The Majority Text is slowly gaining support among scholars, for it is the real text. It may take a few decades, but the Majority Text will eventually overtake the Critical Text.
If people would start obeying Jesus, extracting from their Bibles what Jesus wants us to find, the manuscript source and the translation, assuming it's a whole lot better than the message, will transform lives. Just pick up a Bible and read it and obey it and trust it and find God in it. Who cares about the T crossing and the I dotting? The more we do this, the more we deliberately and directly disobey our God.
I've seen it claimed that the numerous differnces between Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are nearly all very minor differences. Also, since the Catholic Church used the Western Text (Gospels and Acts in Codex Bezae, Pauline Epistles in Codex Claromontanus) as the basis for most of the Old Testament in the Vetus Latina before Jerome, it should have gotten a little mention.
@2:05 he should have included "that despite minor variations the monks missed, copies from those manuscript mistakes can be compared to properly copied manuscripts, because properly copied manuscripts were MUCH more plentiful" thus we could trace that we have God's Word
When Erasmus finished his collation, collected manusctipts to form the greek, it was called Novum Instrumentum Omne, not the Textus Receptus. There were many typo errors and versions that people complained about. so on the last page within a sentence the PRINTERS wrote "Textum ergo habes, nunc ab omnibus receptum: in quo nihil immutatum aut corruptum damus ("so you hold the text, now received by all, in which (is) nothing corrupt"). Later elzivar tried to make the TR one word. after, after....
A must to know, look very basic and easy.But with out proper hard work of learning the stuff can not makes such great summarize of biblical history..Well done!
An excellent presentation. Its noteworthy that so called Byzantine texts were quoted by Christians from the 1st and 2nd century. I would assume that would validate them to some degree. I am curious to know more about this topic.
Overall a good introduction to the manuscript tradition of the Bible. I would like to point out though, that from 8:05-8:50 you have mistyped the word "uncial" as "unical" and therefore mispronounced uncial. Otherwise, I enjoyed the video.
Byzantine texts has never misleaded the church, even if those verses were added they're not negative teachings neither contradicts the doctrines of the apostles.
yeah I agree with you,. If these "added texts" were actually harmful or even a little concerning then I would no doubt join the Alexandrian camp, but, they instead push more christ into the picture. I don't see how that is evil.
@@exposingtruth600And the KJV has texts that have changed meanings too compared to modern English - in thousands of places. Languages morph and drift. The KJV also has deliberate mistranslations to support the political agenda of King James and minimise embarrassment over some of his policies that conflicted with actual Biblical teachings.
@mrk4954 are you not familiar with the 16th and 17th centuries? Who do you think created the Greek and English texts in the late middle ages, up through much of the 17th century. The 1611 revision of the Bishop's Bible (CATHOLIC PUE BIBLE), which is called the KJV is Anglican. I hope this helps some.
Thanks a lot for this. The New Testament just got more complicated. It does seem like the division occured earlier if church fathers quoted the Byzantine manuscripts.
How could the early Church fathers QUOTE manuscripts that came 600 - 800 years later or more. By "Church Fathers", I assume you mean Ante Nicene Fathers (1st century AD to 325), but maybe you mean 10th century AD church fathers eh? I say that since the Byzantine manuscripts are primarily nineth (9th) century to 15th century AD? since all NT manuscripts, other meaningless variations, match each other, for the MOST PART then of course you could see common ground between the quotes they made and the Byzantine Majority text family. In such as comparison, you could say that about any of the Textual families. By meaningless variations they all have, in Greek word order is VERY flexible but not so much in English. So putting some words before or after others technically is a variation. Also, if the definite article was included in some but not in others (translates as the word THE), then that is a variation. Spelling variations are considered textual variations. No, the church fathers of the first 300 years quotes match mostly the Alexandrian and Western text families, which these two are the oldest NT manuscripts we have.
I didn't know that only 6 manuscripts were used for the Textus Receptus. It is synonymous with the Byzantine text which is known as the majority text. Where does the term Critical text come in then that all modern translations use? I've heard its Alexandrian but also that it has the most manuscripts for scholars to choose. That cannot be possible right?
Hey Mike, the TR is only synonymous with the Byzantine/Majority text in less knowledgeable circles, in fact the TR differers from the Majority Text in ~1800 places, this is explained by the facts that Erasmus didn't use the best examplars of the Majority Text, he didn't have a manuscript of Revelation (and was forced to extract one from a greek/latin commentary in which the last page was missing, thus he translated the last 6 verses directly from the latin Vulgate into greek) and consulted the Vulgate on a number of readings in which he prefered it in comparison to the greek manuscripts. An interesting note is that since Erasmus colated from 6 manuscripts to create his TR it is, in fact, also a "critical text" because he adopted textual criticism when he chose readings from these manuscripts, which were all different. The modern concept of "Critical Text" began in the 19th Century with Westcott-Hort, and the recent archeological findings of ever earlier manuscripts and the adoption of scientific methodology to reconstruct the original text out of the huge number of manuscripts we possess (~5800), particularly from the very earliest ones like Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, and the papyri like P45, P66, P75 and others which are the earlist surviving witnesses of the text.
The very last chart is very telling. It's missing the "original" source. All the various Greek "translations" can be explained if you include the original Aramaic that the authors wrote it ALL in. There's so much evidence for this that almost no one investigates. But scholars of the 1800's worked this all out. The books are no longer published but they are available.
Only problem is that the TR is after the kjv. The TR is a Greek edition of the NT deriving from an English translation (kjv) which comes for about 6 Greek manuscript and also relied on Latin. It’s backwards i know.
Erasmus created the Textus Receptus in 1516 from eight Greek miniscule manuscripts, although in a few verses, he followed the 4th Century Latin Vulgate translation by Jerome. The King James Bible was first printed in 1604, eighty-eight years later. Erasmus, the translator of the TR, died in 1536.
@@CornerTalkerErasmus' Greek New Testament is not the same as the Textus Receptus. FWIW, both include the _Comma Johanneum_ (1 John 5:7) from the well-known early 16th century forgery called Codex Montfortianus that the RCC used to sneak the verse into Erasmus' 3rd printed edition of the Greek New Testament in 1522 and, from there, into the KJV and, ultimately, into the Textus Receptus.
Where did you obtain this incomplete, inaccurate Koine Greek (KG) NT, manuscript (MSS), & English translation info. THE Majority Text of Farstad & Hodges differs from the 1769* edition of KJ translation in1838 places including that it lacks 1 John 5:7. *has nearly 4000 more words than the 1611 While the accounts vary Erasmus had between 6 & 12 INCOMPLETE MSS. He filled in the gaps w/translation portions from the Latin Vulgate. Anyone who doesn’t know Reformation history would think Erasmus published only one NT. And/or no one performed & published add’l KG NTs after him. Also Erasmus was dead nearly 100 before anyone heard the phrase or term coined by the Elzevir brothers: Textus Receptus or TR. Erasmus published FIVE KG NTs 1516, 1519 , 1522, 1527, & 1535. Luther used the 1519 edition for his first German translation. Stephanus published four: 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva. The 1551 had the same Greek text as the third, but is especially noteworthy for its division of the NT books into verses. Lastly, before the KJ Translators* went to work in 1604, was Theodore Beza. He published a total of 12, three of which were available to the translators*, the 3rd, his 1598 they* relied upon the most. Also omitted were numerous English translations in between Tyndale and the Geneva** translations plus a translation that followed**, the Bishop. An English translation recap that omits a late 16th Catholic English translation from the Latin Vulgate 1. Tyndale Bible (1526) by William Tyndale. 2. Coverdale Bible (1535) by Myles Coverdale. 3. Matthew’s Bible (1537) by Thomas Matthew.. 4. Great Bible or Whitchurch Bible (1539) by Myles Coverdale. 5. Taverner’s Bible (1539) by Richard Taverner. 6. Becke’s Bible (1551) by Edmune Becke. 7. Geneva Bible (1560) by William Whittingham. 8. Bishop’s Bible (1568) by Matthew Parker. All available to the translators You down play the significance of the papyri discoveries over the last 130+ years
An excellent, though "scholarly", work on this is "The Original Ending of Mark" but I cannot recall the sub-title or Author (and I can't find my kindle).
Seems odd you say the Papyrus was earliest... yet Dead Sea Scrolls dating to before Christ were mostly parchment. Perhaps the most notable being the great Isaiah scroll which was dated older than 100 BCE is made of 17 sheets of parchment. Kinda strange statement as I see it. Do you have sources you're leaning on for this claim? Also stating the writing style of miniscule came later seems equally odd. Would like to know your source for that also.
I’m not a king James onlyist even though I only use the KJV but to be honest even if my argument for the king, James is mostly emotional I don’t care. I feel so much more connected to God when I read the KJV compared to the other versions
A big no no is Wescott and company were Satanist. In Isa 14:12 they refer to Satan as morning star which is a title giving to Jesus in Rev 22:16. Not to mention they didn't believe in the deity of JESUS.
That slur against Westcott and Hort was debunked soon after it was first leveled against them. How is it you don't know that? Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) were devout scholars and theologians and Westcott was an Anglican bishop. The manifold slanders against Westcott and Hort are typified in the writings of J Hyles, N Jones, G A Riplinger, P Ruckman, D Sorenson, and D A Waite. Such slanders commonly include that either or both were occultists who denied Jesus’ deity, His resurrection, the inspiration and infallibility of scripture, etc., and, on that basis, all modern translations of the Bible employing the text-critical methods pioneered by Westcott and Hort are not to be trusted.
Why some have problems with Reasoned eclecticism. I John 5:7 is found in a majority of the Latin, but not the Greek so out it goes. Good will towards men Doxology in Matthew Without cause God manifest in the flesh Are a majority in the Greek but not in the Latin, so out they go The PA and Mark 16:9-20 are a majority in both the Greek and Latin so out they go. Even the “not yet” found in the two of the earliest(P66.P75) in John 7:8 some throw out. If as an orthodox Christian you don't see a problem, what would you see as a problem?
Curious as to where your getting your information? My understanding is that without using certain patristic writings that the PA is not found or has no prominence in any pre-800’s ad manuscripts. That’s one huge reason not to include that story in that there’s no line of transmission. Any videos or articles that you have I’d love to watch
@@Kenneth-nVA That early Greek manuscripts contained this pericope de adultera is proved by the presence of it in the 5th-century Greek manuscript D. That early Latin manuscripts also contained it is indicated by its actual appearance in the Old Latin codices b and e. And both these conclusions are confirmed by the statement of Jerome (c. 415) that “in the Gospel according to John in many manuscripts, both Greek and Latin, is found the story of the adulterous woman who was accused before the Lord.” (35) There is no reason to question the accuracy of Jerome’s statement, especially since another statement of his concerning an addition made to the ending of Mark has been proved to have been correct by the actual discovery of the additional material in W. And that Jerome personally accepted the pericope de adultera as genuine is shown by the fact that he included it in the Latin Vulgate. purelypresbyterian.com/2016/12/01/defense-of-the-pericope-adulterae/ Also James Snapp,Jr. and my elder son Jonathan Sheffield have videos on You Tube
@@jamessheffield4173 I’ve watched some of his debates on RUclips regarding this issue! Thank you and I’ll research the link you sent…I seriously started studying this about 2 years ago and I’m muddled somewhere in the middle. I’ve wanted to ask someone this so maybe you can also help: how far back to the 2-4th centuries can the TR position be traced? If I’m understanding Gurry, Wallace and the text criticism camp ( James white as well…) then the TR manuscripts are fairly closer to the 1500’s and generally could not be reproduced in the 2nd-4th centuries…any help would be appreciated.
@@Kenneth-nVA The classic Books on the issue would be The Revision Revised by John William Burgon and his The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both I believe are on Amazon. A more up to date work is The Identity of the New Testament Text II by Wilbur N. Pickering, ThM PhD www.revisedstandard.net/text/WNP/ Good luck on your studies. Blessings.
Erasmus DID NOT call his text "Textus Receptus" That phrase was coined by printers The Elzevir Brothers Abraham and Bonaventure in 1633 A.D. A full 97 years after Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus died in 1536 A.D.
Over 5800 manuscripts is slightly misleading as close to 1000 are simply fragments and not what the average lay person would imagine to be understood as a "manuscript".
You show an image of a page from Vaticanus as an example of 4th to 8th century manuscripts. However, it shows obvious initial drop caps. Initial drop caps were not used until the middle ages.
5:50 you are saying this NT Greek dilemma hinges on the possibility that the church has been missing the true text for almost 2000 years. Well consider this, here is a brief on the Christian bible history. *Up until near 400 AD, the worldwide churchs had Greek OT and NT. Sure we can debate what NT Greek they had, but the point is it was Greek. *After 400 AD, Jerome having finished his Latin bible, aka the Latin Vulgate since the Roman empire having defeated the Greek 500 years earlier, the language had finally evolved to be primarily Roman (Latin) in the Western church, so he was asked by Pope Damasus, being his secretary, to translate the Greek bible into Latin. Jerome used the unbelieving Jews' Hebrew text rather than the Greek Septuagint LXX that the church had been using for centuries and most NT quotes in our bibles today, even the KJV bible, match MOST OF THE TIME the Greek OT rather than the Hebrew used in the KJV and all protestant bibles. So to your point at 5:50, that could not have happened since the church had been using EXCLUSIVELY the Latin Vulgate from about 400 to about 1550 AD when William Tyndale completed the first English bible to ever not use the Latin Vulgate (his OT used it a bit though). In truth, he was martyred before a complete English bible could be presented to the people. Coverdale completed the work and his was the first COMPLETE English bible not based on the Latin Vulgate. Wycliff had used the Latin Vulgate (not Greek NT manuscripts) for his English Translation in the 14th century AD.
Just finished David Daniell's "William Tyndale: A Biography" - pretty good stuff. The Reformation and the Puritans are actually more my interest area. I'll be checking out your channel as a late-in-life Greek student.
@@CornerTalker me too...late in life Greek student to teacher. I began about age 50 in late 2015 but am about to turn 58. ha! Better late than never. Reading the bible in Greek is a rush.. and then reading actual ancient manuscripts, is a double dose. I have a Textus Receptus from the Trinitarian Bible Society that I read too.
The Douay-Rheims version is the most Catholic of English translations and it is not a "descendant" of the "Alexandrian text type". So not quite correct to say that "all Catholic Bibles" are "Alexandrian" text type Bibles.
04:38 Woman caught in Adultery in John 7:53 - 8:11 --> in our present day bibles. Here are some verifiable facts: In the earliest copies we have, this story is not in the NT, When it does show up, it is in the gospel of Luke. Everntually as we head toward the end of the first millennium (1000 years), it is in later manuscripts. Not sure if in all, but in some as I understand it. But Textual Scholars because of this and more, don't think it was in the original "autographs" by neither Luke nor John, so where does the story originate. A disciple of the Apostle John named Papias is recorded in the early church writings called Ante Nicene Fathers who told this story. His writing is close to the end of the 1st century AD. If it was in John or Luke then surely he would have just referred to it in the gospel as the early christians often did. Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History (fancy way of saying Church History), he records Papias telling this story and giving this account.
At some points you overstate the affect of the variants. At no point do they concern Christian doctrine. Someone reading ANY of the textual schools will learn the same doctrinal teachings.
Meaningful, viable differences are found in less than 1% of the text. Most variants (like when you say 3000 of them in the Gospels) are simple spelling or word order differences and these make zero difference in translations (word order in Greek is not important like in English).
Thank you for this splendid introduction the best I've seen so far. Just one question: how do we know the dates of all the different manuscripts? Perhaps the most interesting case would be the date of the Rylands manuscript.
From my understanding none of them are carbon dated, I think they use writing styles of certain periods in history and they make a guess of most likely when the texts are dated. I could be wrong but I’d like to know more too instead of taking different scholars word for it.
I believe handwriting analysis is generally used - which means precise dates are impossible(only ranges). However, it is possible to establish the general age of the document. And (by way of example) it's unlikely a 5th century scribe would try to make a 4th century forgery. After all, there would have been older manuscripts available in his time. As to carbon dating(someone correct me if I'm wrong), I believe the process wouldn't actually provide clarification. Carbon dating is used for very old things, and gives a general age range. However, from what I know of the process, it's not precise enough to clarify between a few hundred years.
While I do like the NASB95 I always refer to the references for the MT alternative reading since it’s usually more accurate, I also use the NKJV quite often.
A Catholic Bible would be a Bible published by and for Catholic Christians. They are pretty much all minor revisions of Protestant or Ecumenical scholarship. But thr video maker made a mistake in saying that *all* Catholic Bibles are translations of Alexandriam texts. The Douay-Rheims version, pubsluh3d slightly before the King James, is the most Catholic of English translations and it isn't a translation of "Alexandrian" texts.
this is an outstanding summary of the issue. The visuals you composed are edifying.
amen
It was once a good summary but it's outdated. We now know that the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are neither the oldest nor the best.
It was all fake.
A very well put together presentation. Learned quite a lot. Thank you for this gift
So sad that you have the best video on the topic yet so little views
thanks
People don't know what time it is that's why😉....... they're eyes are wide ( shut) 👁️👁️
It gets a lot wrong and leaves out important details. First off, the Alexandrian Texts are not older than the Textus Receptus, ruclips.net/video/S0Q39VPjz0c/видео.html
And also, Westcott and Hort were not Christians at all, so trusting them with their translations is not wise at all.
Its an ok presentation. If you want real depth on this, the King James Bible Research Council provides comprehensive coverage...www.youtube.com/@kjbrc
@BenjHouston Thank you for sharing that video link. I checked his video out and it was super helpful and clear.
You have done a really good job presenting both sides as well as you can. The Byzantine text is definitely early and homogenous, which means that it has not diverged from its archetype whatever that is, as its several witnesses do not diverge from each other. The question is: what is its archetype? Is it the autographs and how would we know if it was. As for the Alexandrian, Western, and Neutral text-types there is doubt, due to their lack of homogeneity, whether they really are text-types at all. You pointed out the huge differences between Aleph and B for example. It seems clear to me, therefore, that if they diverge from one another, they diverge from their archetype also, and so whatever their archetype, they cannot be good guides to the autographs, since they all differ.
Great video! Thanks for sharing. It has helped me tremendously, praise God!
Very well done video. Your way of explaining everything was very easy and your visual cues made everything super clear. God bless 🙏
Thank you for this concise presentation. Indeed i am interested to know more details about how we got our present day Bible. Hope you can, soon 🙏🏼
Thanks. I was searching n searching for a video to clear this to me, didnt find and finally found this. Thanks a lot. Its such a relief. God bless you. Praise the Lord for all His works thro His people!
I learned more than I knew before, but it could be that the reason that the Byzantine type text is not deemed the oldest and representing the ordinal autographs is that at least one Roman Emperor--Diocletian--had the true texts destroyed and/or confiscated in the empire
I am a Christian and trying to learn more about the history of how we have the Bible. This was easy to understand and provided a lot of information. Thank you!
Thank you for such an excellent summary of how we got our Bible.
Erasmus did not call his text the Textus Receptus. That term was not used until the Elzevier brothers and is used anachronistically for earlier print editions.
Took the words from my finger tips! :)
Well of course since it’s an academic term to differentiate the biblical sources
Also, Only problem is that the TR is after the kjv. The TR is a Greek edition of the NT deriving from an English translation (kjv) which comes for about 6 Greek manuscript and also relied on Latin for last 6 vs or revelation It’s backwards i know.
@@avismore3938 A reverse translation done by F.H.A. Scrivener, finally printed in 1894, after Scrivener's death. Scrivener's exercise was to determine the textual critical work of the KJV translators.
Erasmus provided us with the TR, though the name came later. The KJAV used several slightly different editions of the TR in 1611 and Scrivener's job, three hundred years later, was to produce the precise TR in one edition from the several that they used. Up to that time it had not existed as one physical edition.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 (KJB)
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not _soon shaken_ _in mind_, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, _nor by_ _letter_ _as from us_, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Ive been a KJV all my life, but have recently been reading the 1599 Geneva , i really like it.
Thats the Bible that made the USA, GNV
I like the Geneva Bible of 1599 too.
Great video. It sums up the whole topic better than any other presentation I've seen before.
Peace
Just two quick points and a couple suggestions. First God preserved his Word according to many verses in the Scriptures. Second Desidarius Erasmus revised his work a total of 5 times to try to perfect it. I suggest you look into the writings of Hort and Wescott published after their deaths and definitely look up and listen to the testimony of repentance that Dr. Frank Logsdon gave. Dr. Logsdon wrote the Preface of the NASB version when it was first put out. It along with nearly ALL the new translations are based on the Hort, Wescott, Nestle and Aland Greek text. Then you can discern and decide for yourself what Scripture you should be using. God Bless All
The fact that NIV, CSB, HCSB, NET, ESV, NASB, LSB and many others are based on the work of these four non-real christians, it is evidence of how the enemy has blinded the eyes of most of the people involved in the work of translating these modern bible translations, what a big shame. Desideruis was used by God to bring us the real and trustworthy word of God, that's why the Reformers' translations are the way to follow.
@@joseramonperez9609So God inspired Erasmus to lie about the last 6 verses of Revelation?
Get out of here with the KJVonlyism. It’s 2024, that’s a tired gag.
@@TheDmitriProject Hi, I think that God used the *_Reformers_* to give us translations in English, Spanish, German, French, Italian and Portuguese from the most truthworthy sources, the latest modern translation have cut off verses which were part of the original, the manuscripts before the corrupted *_"Alexandrian manuscripts"_*
@@TheDmitriProject Hi, I'm not a KJVonlysm at all, I'm just seeing how the modern English Translations which almost all of them are based on the corrupted *_"Alexandrian manuscripts*"_** not in the earliest ones used by the **_*"Church Fathers"_* these corrupted manuscripts are the base for these translations which have cutt off important verses which were part of the *_Scriptures_* and that's the problem.
@@joseramonperez9609Thoughts on the johannine comma?
A concise overview of the various manuscript traditions. Thanks for sharing that!
To me it makes so much sense that you'd never find an ancient copy of a good manuscript. They'd be destroyed by just sheer use and copying. Great video I wish I saw this 6 years ago!
Clear and well put together. Thank you!
Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
@@ernieland2480
What about the MasoNretic text?
There is a detail that the video overlooked, but it reinforces what it supports is about an older version and much closer to the original texts: the Peshita Bible. Already in the 2nd century BC a text had been produced in Cyriac that faithfully supports what was written in the Byzantine texts. Due to this detail, the critical text has a major fidelity and authenticity problem.
Dope video 💯💯💯 I started with the NIV , slowly transitioning to the King james. As of now I’m reading them side to side.
What this video failed to mention is that there are 1800 differences between the Majority Text and the Received Text (Textus Receptus).
Isn't the Received Text just a subset of the Majority Text ?
@@stevenaguilera9202 I don't think so. While they are similar as in the Byzantine Text type, they are not exactly the same. Majority Text is more eastern while the Received Text is more western. The Majority Text is also based on the majority agreement of a compilation of manuscripts this the name Majority Text. While the TR contains 1 John 5:7 and Acts 8:37, the Majority Text does not. Blessings!!
@@rodneyjackson6181 Then it's clear which one is wrong. I hope you have figured that out. If you think for one split second that either of these verses don't belong in your Bible you have been grossly misled. The Majority text is wrong. As a Christian, you should be able to read the passage in Acts 8 and discern if verse 37 belongs in the passage. The same goes for First John 5:7. Both those verses are inspired words of God and should belong in all Bibles. If you don't think Acts 8:37 is scripture there is something seriously wrong with you. I hope you know the truth about it.
@@randyd9805all I did was state a fact between the Textus Receptus and the Majority Text. All of a sudden you come at me with assumptions and assertions. Usually the case when someone does not like facts. Did I ever say that 1 John 5:7 or Acts 8:37 does not belong in Scripture? Nope. The fact is 1 John 5:7 is not in any Greek manuscript. It was a marginal note in 1. Acts 8:37 is also minority reading and is not found in most Greek manuscripts. This is Biblical history. Erasmus did not put 1 John 5:7 in his Greek New Testament until his third edition. Fact is 1 John 5:7 came from the Latin. Bottom line is that I like both verses and read them from my translations whether in the text or the footnote.
@@rodneyjackson6181 There is zero doubt in my mind that both of those verses are holy scripture. You have taken a position on them and that's clear. Any believer should be able to read the passage in Acts 8 and discern if verse 37 belongs in that text. It was NOT added as you and some others claim. IT DOES CHANGE BIBLE DOCTRINE to remove it. If you believe in what is commonly called baptismal regeneration you may have a motive for not wanting that verse in your Bible. The TR is right and the Majority text is wrong. You cannot prove your position is right no matter how much you try. There is evidence that these verses were in the originals, but no matter what I do you will reject any evidence to the contrary. The texts that are used as the basis for almost all modern translations are not just corrupt, but extremely corrupt. We are not talking about a few verses or words here and there, but so many changes and omissions it boggles the mind that any real believer in Jesus Christ would swallow it hook, line, and sinker. Two of them are those 2 verses. There are literally hundreds more.
I actually appreciate that you showed me that they are removed from the Majority Text. As many years as I've been studying and watching this, I did not know that. I checked your statement out and found you are correct using this useful website. textusreceptusbibles.com/EMTV
Btw, my position is solid as a rock. I would challenge you to read at least the passage in Acts 8 carefully and thoughtfully. You might even pray about it sincerely. Does that verse belong in your Bible? I am convinced it does. If you believe it doesn't that's totally on you. Read it with the verse and again without it.
textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/44008001/KJV/GNV/EMTV
Notice the DATES of these 3 translations that predate the KJV.
textusreceptusbibles.com/Parallel/44008001/TYN/WYC/COV
Great video! 👏 Thanks very much for uploading this!
Great video ! I put forward the hypothesis that the manuscrits that are fewer (those who differ from de mainstream byzantine text) have been transmitted orally.
It seems to be a commun practice these days to memorize large portions of texts. (the coran in it's early stages was mainly transmitted orally)
I seems to me that the Alexandrian texts were not considered as valuable. They would all know that copies of an orally transmitted text wasn't as valuable as a written copy.
That's the reason why they have been preserved better (not used as much as others), it's the reason why they have been forgotten in the libraries, and also why the differences between the manuscripts of the minority text are much more frequent.
Good thinking. This idea helps me understand more about the topic. I can really picture this being how it happened.
One comment I should make is that the Catholic Church since 420 AD has used the Latin Vulgate. The Byzantine text was used by the Eastern Orthodox Church as they rejected the Latin translation and kept it in their original language. That being said too the Douay-Rheims is a weird middle ground between Alexandrian & Byzantine text families. It does not omit verses that are in less manuscripts in the Majority Text.
I thank Adonai for leading me to this video. This is an issue I was completely in the dark about. Byzantine vs. Alexandrian. This coming from someone who is currently comparing and contrasting all the differences between the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text!
Well, considering the fact, that maniscripts "live" for just 100-200 years when being used activelly, it's not surprising that we don't have originals, but it is surprising that we have manuscripts that are 50-150 years older than authographs (originals). Off course, those are not full copies, but still are very important.
Yes, there are chunks that are added to the texts by the scribes, but they don't effect the doctrins, like you said. And they look like additions that have roots in oral tradition.
Other than that, the presentation is great! Thank you for your work!
Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
Thank you for this nice summary of the issues.
As for the Pool of Bethesday 4:51 we have Tertullian referring to this around 200 AD and saying the angel stirred the water. This is the "west" and his manuscript references are characterized often as WESTERN Textual family. So maybe John did not have the included, but since that is EARLY tradition and belief, I tend to believe it and therefore appreciate that it is in the KJV.
What a great video. I’ve often thought of making a similar video. Now I don’t have to. Thanks for doing this.
I am uncertain where the number 5800 originated. Determining the actual number of manuscripts is difficult. Considering the ones in Greek:
The Institute for New Testament Textual Research (INTF) in Münster, Germany has catalogued over 320 uncial codices, which are the older ones. However, many believe a few of these should be removed from the list (055 is actually a commentary; 0100, 0129, and 0192 are lectionaries; 0168 is lost; 0212 is a diatessaron; 0152 and 0153 are not manuscripts at all).
The same institute has catalogued 2911 minuscule codices. These were generally created between 700 and the invention of the printing press.
As of 2021, only 141 papyri fragments were known, and some of these have been judged to be fragments of the same original manuscript.
Manuscripts also include at least 100 in Old Latin and many more of the Vulgate; also New Testament manuscripts in Syriac, German (Codex Koridethi, for example), and Ethiopian Ge’ez (The Garima Gospel).
Excellent overview, thank you.
Why is that we can view alexandrian manuscripts online and even facsimile are made of these types but there is no images of any of these 5800 anywhere from the Byzantine
This was an excellent and very interesting explanation of positions on both sides. This is what I refer to as objective evidence as opposed to the subjective one sided view of people like James White.
Thank you so much! I appreciate you presenting both sides. The last time I revisited this, it was a horrible experience and I gave up. I defended the NT as a whole. But I am starting to see holes in my position. I will continue to believe in good faith, that God is faithful. We are blessed to have this problem. If we can even call it a problem.
Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
Outstanding presentation!
Thanks
shalom from indonesia.
thanks for the video...
The Majority Text is slowly gaining support among scholars, for it is the real text. It may take a few decades, but the Majority Text will eventually overtake the Critical Text.
Great video easy to understand
If people would start obeying Jesus, extracting from their Bibles what Jesus wants us to find, the manuscript source and the translation, assuming it's a whole lot better than the message, will transform lives. Just pick up a Bible and read it and obey it and trust it and find God in it. Who cares about the T crossing and the I dotting? The more we do this, the more we deliberately and directly disobey our God.
I've seen it claimed that the numerous differnces between Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are nearly all very minor differences. Also, since the Catholic Church used the Western Text (Gospels and Acts in Codex Bezae, Pauline Epistles in Codex Claromontanus) as the basis for most of the Old Testament in the Vetus Latina before Jerome, it should have gotten a little mention.
In case I missed it, the 1901 ASV bible also uses the Westcott and Hort NT text. In fact, I think it may have been the first to do so.
@2:05 he should have included "that despite minor variations the monks missed, copies from those manuscript mistakes can be compared to properly copied manuscripts, because properly copied manuscripts were MUCH more plentiful" thus we could trace that we have God's Word
When Erasmus finished his collation, collected manusctipts to form the greek, it was called Novum Instrumentum Omne, not the Textus Receptus. There were many typo errors and versions that people complained about. so on the last page within a sentence the PRINTERS wrote "Textum ergo habes, nunc ab omnibus receptum: in quo nihil immutatum aut corruptum damus ("so you hold the text, now received by all, in which (is) nothing corrupt"). Later elzivar tried to make the TR one word. after, after....
Erasmus, I’m told, had access to the vatecanus text and did not use it.
A must to know, look very basic and easy.But with out proper hard work of learning the stuff can not makes such great summarize of biblical history..Well done!
Excellent work! Thanks.
I suggest that you watch "Netiher oldest nor best" by the King James Bible research council on RUclips. It will shed more light on the subject.
Thanks.. very clear and well presented
An excellent presentation. Its noteworthy that so called Byzantine texts were quoted by Christians from the 1st and 2nd century. I would assume that would validate them to some degree. I am curious to know more about this topic.
Thank you for this. So helpful.
Really nice work
Thanks for the details, additional info on text of the gospel by james snapp jr
Great video, thanks!
Overall a good introduction to the manuscript tradition of the Bible. I would like to point out though, that from 8:05-8:50 you have mistyped the word "uncial" as "unical" and therefore mispronounced uncial. Otherwise, I enjoyed the video.
thanks
Byzantine texts has never misleaded the church, even if those verses were added they're not negative teachings neither contradicts the doctrines of the apostles.
I agree and perhaps wasn't clear that I was reporting what my sources had said and not stating my personal belief.
yeah I agree with you,. If these "added texts" were actually harmful or even a little concerning then I would no doubt join the Alexandrian camp, but, they instead push more christ into the picture. I don't see how that is evil.
@Hiram Serna I believe alexandrian text is misleading as in some verses it changes meanings.
@@exposingtruth600And the KJV has texts that have changed meanings too compared to modern English - in thousands of places. Languages morph and drift.
The KJV also has deliberate mistranslations to support the political agenda of King James and minimise embarrassment over some of his policies that conflicted with actual Biblical teachings.
@@allangibson8494 I don’t believe in the KJV anymore as much as I used to
@mrk4954 are you not familiar with the 16th and 17th centuries? Who do you think created the Greek and English texts in the late middle ages, up through much of the 17th century. The 1611 revision of the Bishop's Bible (CATHOLIC PUE BIBLE), which is called the KJV is Anglican.
I hope this helps some.
Thank you! Very helpful.
Thanks a lot for this. The New Testament just got more complicated. It does seem like the division occured earlier if church fathers quoted the Byzantine manuscripts.
How could the early Church fathers QUOTE manuscripts that came 600 - 800 years later or more. By "Church Fathers", I assume you mean Ante Nicene Fathers (1st century AD to 325), but maybe you mean 10th century AD church fathers eh? I say that since the Byzantine manuscripts are primarily nineth (9th) century to 15th century AD? since all NT manuscripts, other meaningless variations, match each other, for the MOST PART then of course you could see common ground between the quotes they made and the Byzantine Majority text family. In such as comparison, you could say that about any of the Textual families. By meaningless variations they all have, in Greek word order is VERY flexible but not so much in English. So putting some words before or after others technically is a variation. Also, if the definite article was included in some but not in others (translates as the word THE), then that is a variation. Spelling variations are considered textual variations. No, the church fathers of the first 300 years quotes match mostly the Alexandrian and Western text families, which these two are the oldest NT manuscripts we have.
I didn't know that only 6 manuscripts were used for the Textus Receptus. It is synonymous with the Byzantine text which is known as the majority text. Where does the term Critical text come in then that all modern translations use? I've heard its Alexandrian but also that it has the most manuscripts for scholars to choose. That cannot be possible right?
Hey Mike, the TR is only synonymous with the Byzantine/Majority text in less knowledgeable circles, in fact the TR differers from the Majority Text in ~1800 places, this is explained by the facts that Erasmus didn't use the best examplars of the Majority Text, he didn't have a manuscript of Revelation (and was forced to extract one from a greek/latin commentary in which the last page was missing, thus he translated the last 6 verses directly from the latin Vulgate into greek) and consulted the Vulgate on a number of readings in which he prefered it in comparison to the greek manuscripts. An interesting note is that since Erasmus colated from 6 manuscripts to create his TR it is, in fact, also a "critical text" because he adopted textual criticism when he chose readings from these manuscripts, which were all different.
The modern concept of "Critical Text" began in the 19th Century with Westcott-Hort, and the recent archeological findings of ever earlier manuscripts and the adoption of scientific methodology to reconstruct the original text out of the huge number of manuscripts we possess (~5800), particularly from the very earliest ones like Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, and the papyri like P45, P66, P75 and others which are the earlist surviving witnesses of the text.
It seems to me that the textual criticism of the alexandrian text pointing to writer errors can just be differences between the two.
The very last chart is very telling. It's missing the "original" source. All the various Greek "translations" can be explained if you include the original Aramaic that the authors wrote it ALL in. There's so much evidence for this that almost no one investigates. But scholars of the 1800's worked this all out. The books are no longer published but they are available.
You are a great teacher thank you
Thank you, keep it up.
Only problem is that the TR is after the kjv. The TR is a Greek edition of the NT deriving from an English translation (kjv) which comes for about 6 Greek manuscript and also relied on Latin. It’s backwards i know.
Erasmus created the Textus Receptus in 1516 from eight Greek miniscule manuscripts, although in a few verses, he followed the 4th Century Latin Vulgate translation by Jerome. The King James Bible was first printed in 1604, eighty-eight years later. Erasmus, the translator of the TR, died in 1536.
@@CornerTalkerErasmus' Greek New Testament is not the same as the Textus Receptus. FWIW, both include the _Comma Johanneum_ (1 John 5:7) from the well-known early 16th century forgery called Codex Montfortianus that the RCC used to sneak the verse into Erasmus' 3rd printed edition of the Greek New Testament in 1522 and, from there, into the KJV and, ultimately, into the Textus Receptus.
Very helpful.
Thank you.
Erasmus entitled his first Greek NT Novum Instrumentum omne, NOT Textus Receptus.
Neat presentation. The issue is complex, but good thing getting to Heaven isn't... Rom 3: 23, Rom 4: 5, John 6: 47, Eph 2: 8-9, Titus 3: 5,
Do we have a citation re Erasmus using Codex Bezae?
Where did you obtain this incomplete, inaccurate Koine Greek (KG) NT, manuscript (MSS), & English translation info. THE Majority Text of Farstad & Hodges differs from the 1769* edition of KJ translation in1838 places including that it lacks 1 John 5:7.
*has nearly 4000 more words than the 1611
While the accounts vary Erasmus had between 6 & 12 INCOMPLETE MSS. He filled in the gaps w/translation portions from the Latin Vulgate.
Anyone who doesn’t know Reformation history would think Erasmus published only one NT. And/or no one performed & published add’l KG NTs after him. Also Erasmus was dead nearly 100 before anyone heard the phrase or term coined by the
Elzevir brothers: Textus Receptus or TR.
Erasmus published FIVE KG NTs 1516, 1519 , 1522, 1527, & 1535. Luther used the 1519 edition for his first German translation. Stephanus published four: 1546, 1549, 1550, and 1551, the last in Geneva.
The 1551 had the same Greek text as the third, but is especially noteworthy for its division of the NT books into verses.
Lastly, before the KJ Translators* went to work in 1604, was Theodore Beza. He published a total of 12, three of which were available to the translators*, the 3rd, his 1598 they* relied upon the most.
Also omitted were numerous English translations in between Tyndale and the Geneva** translations plus a translation that followed**, the Bishop.
An English translation recap that omits a late 16th Catholic English translation from the Latin Vulgate
1. Tyndale Bible (1526) by William Tyndale.
2. Coverdale Bible (1535) by Myles Coverdale.
3. Matthew’s Bible (1537) by Thomas Matthew..
4. Great Bible or Whitchurch Bible (1539) by Myles Coverdale.
5. Taverner’s Bible (1539) by Richard Taverner.
6. Becke’s Bible (1551) by Edmune Becke.
7. Geneva Bible (1560) by William Whittingham.
8. Bishop’s Bible (1568) by Matthew Parker.
All available to the translators
You down play the significance of the papyri discoveries over the last 130+ years
Just how long were you expecting an introductory vid to be? 1 hr & 1/2?
Well done. Thank you
This is a very helpful video. Thank you. Please be aware that the word is uncial, not unical.
Well done👍🏽
Great short intro
thank you
Good presentation... Uncials not Unicals
but one of the better presentations on the subject as far as understandable and well thought out.
Wow excellent presentation.
An excellent, though "scholarly", work on this is "The Original Ending of Mark" but I cannot recall the sub-title or Author (and I can't find my kindle).
It can also be a rabbit hole one can dive into and be lost for decades.
@@CornerTalker The Original Ending of Mark: A New Case for the Authenticity of Mark 16:9-20 by Nicholas P. Lunn
@@CornerTalker Amen!!
so interesting thank you god bless
Seems odd you say the Papyrus was earliest... yet Dead Sea Scrolls dating to before Christ were mostly parchment. Perhaps the most notable being the great Isaiah scroll which was dated older than 100 BCE is made of 17 sheets of parchment. Kinda strange statement as I see it. Do you have sources you're leaning on for this claim? Also stating the writing style of miniscule came later seems equally odd. Would like to know your source for that also.
This is in reference to New Testament manuscripts only. The oldest Old Testament bit is written on copper.
I’m not a king James onlyist even though I only use the KJV but to be honest even if my argument for the king, James is mostly emotional I don’t care. I feel so much more connected to God when I read the KJV compared to the other versions
A big no no is Wescott and company were Satanist. In Isa 14:12 they refer to Satan as morning star which is a title giving to Jesus in Rev 22:16. Not to mention they didn't believe in the deity of JESUS.
That slur against Westcott and Hort was debunked soon after it was first leveled against them. How is it you don't know that?
Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) were devout scholars and theologians and Westcott was an Anglican bishop. The manifold slanders against Westcott and Hort are typified in the writings of J Hyles, N Jones, G A Riplinger, P Ruckman, D Sorenson, and D A Waite. Such slanders commonly include that either or both were occultists who denied Jesus’ deity, His resurrection, the inspiration and infallibility of scripture, etc., and, on that basis, all modern translations of the Bible employing the text-critical methods pioneered by Westcott and Hort are not to be trusted.
The fact that devils come out of people when they renounce catholic saints, just says it all
Excellent video, very thoroughly researched and well presented!!!
Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
Thank you!
EXCELLENT VIDEO
This was a very well presented and informative video. Thank you for this.
Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
Why some have problems with Reasoned eclecticism.
I John 5:7 is found in a majority of the Latin,
but not the Greek so out it goes.
Good will towards men
Doxology in Matthew
Without cause
God manifest in the flesh
Are a majority in the Greek but not in the Latin,
so out they go
The PA and Mark
16:9-20 are a majority in both the Greek
and Latin so out they go.
Even the “not yet” found in the two of the
earliest(P66.P75) in John 7:8
some throw out.
If as an orthodox Christian you don't see a
problem,
what would you see as a problem?
Curious as to where your getting your information? My understanding is that without using certain patristic writings that the PA is not found or has no prominence in any pre-800’s ad manuscripts. That’s one huge reason not to include that story in that there’s no line of transmission. Any videos or articles that you have I’d love to watch
@@Kenneth-nVA That early Greek manuscripts contained this pericope de adultera is proved by the presence of it in the 5th-century Greek manuscript D. That early Latin manuscripts also contained it is indicated by its actual appearance in the Old Latin codices b and e. And both these conclusions are confirmed by the statement of Jerome (c. 415) that “in the Gospel according to John in many manuscripts, both Greek and Latin, is found the story of the adulterous woman who was accused before the Lord.” (35) There is no reason to question the accuracy of Jerome’s statement, especially since another statement of his concerning an addition made to the ending of Mark has been proved to have been correct by the actual discovery of the additional material in W. And that Jerome personally accepted the pericope de adultera as genuine is shown by the fact that he included it in the Latin Vulgate. purelypresbyterian.com/2016/12/01/defense-of-the-pericope-adulterae/ Also James Snapp,Jr. and my elder son Jonathan Sheffield have videos on You Tube
@@jamessheffield4173 I’ve watched some of his debates on RUclips regarding this issue! Thank you and I’ll research the link you sent…I seriously started studying this about 2 years ago and I’m muddled somewhere in the middle. I’ve wanted to ask someone this so maybe you can also help: how far back to the 2-4th centuries can the TR position be traced? If I’m understanding Gurry, Wallace and the text criticism camp ( James white as well…) then the TR manuscripts are fairly closer to the 1500’s and generally could not be reproduced in the 2nd-4th centuries…any help would be appreciated.
@@Kenneth-nVA The classic Books on the issue would be The Revision Revised by John William Burgon and his The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, both I believe are on Amazon. A more up to date work is The Identity of the New Testament Text II by
Wilbur N. Pickering, ThM PhD www.revisedstandard.net/text/WNP/ Good luck on your studies. Blessings.
If Ciprean us quoting a sentence from 1st john doesn't that mean he at least had a copy of 1st John?
v good and mercifully short
Gnosticism was dominant in Alexandria? Isn't that a consideration here?
Erasmus DID NOT call his text "Textus Receptus" That phrase was coined by printers The Elzevir Brothers Abraham and Bonaventure in 1633 A.D. A full 97 years after Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus died in 1536 A.D.
Over 5800 manuscripts is slightly misleading as close to 1000 are simply fragments and not what the average lay person would imagine to be understood as a "manuscript".
You show an image of a page from Vaticanus as an example of 4th to 8th century manuscripts. However, it shows obvious initial drop caps. Initial drop caps were not used until the middle ages.
5:50 you are saying this NT Greek dilemma hinges on the possibility that the church has been missing the true text for almost 2000 years. Well consider this, here is a brief on the Christian bible history.
*Up until near 400 AD, the worldwide churchs had Greek OT and NT. Sure we can debate what NT Greek they had, but the point is it was Greek.
*After 400 AD, Jerome having finished his Latin bible, aka the Latin Vulgate since the Roman empire having defeated the Greek 500 years earlier, the language had finally evolved to be primarily Roman (Latin) in the Western church, so he was asked by Pope Damasus, being his secretary, to translate the Greek bible into Latin. Jerome used the unbelieving Jews' Hebrew text rather than the Greek Septuagint LXX that the church had been using for centuries and most NT quotes in our bibles today, even the KJV bible, match MOST OF THE TIME the Greek OT rather than the Hebrew used in the KJV and all protestant bibles.
So to your point at 5:50, that could not have happened since the church had been using EXCLUSIVELY the Latin Vulgate from about 400 to about 1550 AD when William Tyndale completed the first English bible to ever not use the Latin Vulgate (his OT used it a bit though). In truth, he was martyred before a complete English bible could be presented to the people. Coverdale completed the work and his was the first COMPLETE English bible not based on the Latin Vulgate. Wycliff had used the Latin Vulgate (not Greek NT manuscripts) for his English Translation in the 14th century AD.
Just finished David Daniell's "William Tyndale: A Biography" - pretty good stuff. The Reformation and the Puritans are actually more my interest area. I'll be checking out your channel as a late-in-life Greek student.
@@CornerTalker me too...late in life Greek student to teacher. I began about age 50 in late 2015 but am about to turn 58. ha! Better late than never. Reading the bible in Greek is a rush.. and then reading actual ancient manuscripts, is a double dose. I have a Textus Receptus from the Trinitarian Bible Society that I read too.
The Douay-Rheims version is the most Catholic of English translations and it is not a "descendant" of the "Alexandrian text type". So not quite correct to say that "all Catholic Bibles" are "Alexandrian" text type Bibles.
Thank you for pointing this out
04:38 Woman caught in Adultery in John 7:53 - 8:11 --> in our present day bibles. Here are some verifiable facts: In the earliest copies we have, this story is not in the NT, When it does show up, it is in the gospel of Luke. Everntually as we head toward the end of the first millennium (1000 years), it is in later manuscripts. Not sure if in all, but in some as I understand it. But Textual Scholars because of this and more, don't think it was in the original "autographs" by neither Luke nor John, so where does the story originate. A disciple of the Apostle John named Papias is recorded in the early church writings called Ante Nicene Fathers who told this story. His writing is close to the end of the 1st century AD. If it was in John or Luke then surely he would have just referred to it in the gospel as the early christians often did. Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History (fancy way of saying Church History), he records Papias telling this story and giving this account.
At some points you overstate the affect of the variants. At no point do they concern Christian doctrine. Someone reading ANY of the textual schools will learn the same doctrinal teachings.
Meaningful, viable differences are found in less than 1% of the text. Most variants (like when you say 3000 of them in the Gospels) are simple spelling or word order differences and these make zero difference in translations (word order in Greek is not important like in English).
Thank you for this splendid introduction the best I've seen so far. Just one question: how do we know the dates of all the different manuscripts? Perhaps the most interesting case would be the date of the Rylands manuscript.
From my understanding none of them are carbon dated, I think they use writing styles of certain periods in history and they make a guess of most likely when the texts are dated. I could be wrong but I’d like to know more too instead of taking different scholars word for it.
I believe handwriting analysis is generally used - which means precise dates are impossible(only ranges). However, it is possible to establish the general age of the document. And (by way of example) it's unlikely a 5th century scribe would try to make a 4th century forgery. After all, there would have been older manuscripts available in his time.
As to carbon dating(someone correct me if I'm wrong), I believe the process wouldn't actually provide clarification. Carbon dating is used for very old things, and gives a general age range. However, from what I know of the process, it's not precise enough to clarify between a few hundred years.
@@bstring3967 Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
@@NomadJournalistNews Go to the 1611 Ministries and listen and learn!
Huh?
Unical??
Do you mean uncial?
actually the original Declaration of Independence is lost
While I do like the NASB95 I always refer to the references for the MT alternative reading since it’s usually more accurate, I also use the NKJV quite often.
What is a Catholic bible?
Alexandrian
A Catholic Bible would be a Bible published by and for Catholic Christians. They are pretty much all minor revisions of Protestant or Ecumenical scholarship. But thr video maker made a mistake in saying that *all* Catholic Bibles are translations of Alexandriam texts. The Douay-Rheims version, pubsluh3d slightly before the King James, is the most Catholic of English translations and it isn't a translation of "Alexandrian" texts.