Video idea: A debate on Lirin’s philosophy & whether or not he is a good father, where Rich has to argue for Lirin’s position NO MATTER WHAT - I feel like this would result in some hilarious argument lol
Lirin doesn't make sense? THE LAST TIME HE DEFENDED HIMSELF AGAINST ROSHONE HIS FUCKING SONS DIED. Resistince get's you no where and fighting only causes more bloodshed. Tien died and Kaladin form his POV died for years before suddenly coming back to life, BECAUSE he picked a fight with Roshone, because he couldn't save Roshone's son. He is a broken man who can't find the will to fight and needs to learn from his son, THAT IS THE POINT OF LIRIN. The Kaladin flashbacks clearly set him up as someone with a strong will who fights injustice but by the time we catch up with him, he's given up. AT NO POINT IS OREDEN"S LIFE IN DANGER, KALADIN SAVED TEFT. YOU DINGLEBERRIES
Also it is heavily implied that Lirin used to be a fighter of some sort and that hurt/broke him. He decided that the best thing to do was to become a pacifist. He wants the best for his sons even though he is horribly unsupportive. His flaws are super interesting which is why I like him so much.
Lirin is a terrible father, a well written character but that dont mean I have to like him hes a jerk. Oh my son I thought was dead is miraculously alive and im worried about him being a soldier da fuqqqqq
People can have opinions on characters. And Lorin was that way BEFORE he lost his son. He was literally the same way since he was introduced in the book. Extremes in any end are not good for anyone
@@tuber7081 Lirin fought Roshone. He fought against an oppressive ruler for the sake of the people that hated him. And by the time of the ever storm, he can't bring himself to fight anymore. If Lirin doesn't make sense to you, you weren't paying attention, it's fine if you don't like him, but he makes sense.
The thing with Lirin, is there are people who are like that in real life. Real people often have motivations and lifestyles and life principles that make no sense. He is a frustrating character, but he’s not as poorly written and contrived as you make out. He is a very real character, and all the more frustrating for that
Thank you! His motivations are extremely internally consistent and even when he treats Kal the worst, I can see the parental instincts he is operating on. Lirin more than many characters should have a spren based on his dedication to his personal philosophy
Yes but if I ever met someone in real like who is like Lirin, I would think they’re extremely dumb and annoying. The point is that he is an extremely annoying character, which can still be true even if he is written consistently
@@BuggysNose correct. What they’re saying is not just that they are annoyed at the character but that he’s annoying because he’s poorly written. They’re not tanking the characters on likability but how well they are executed
I know you’re probably not a ride or die for this opinion. It’s just that’s the thing tho. Everybody’s motivations actually do end up making sense in real life. Of course there was an attempt by Brandon to make Lirin make sense, but that doesn’t mean he does. Which is genuinely fine, of course there’s going to be a bad character or two in a fantasy series of this size. Also, to be fair there’s a theory about his character as somebody else mentioned in the comment section.
and by what happened in Dawnshard, I guess she is going to be a important character in next 5 books. Unless the stuff happening in sunlit man is somehow connected to her.
50:56 The Lopen did regrow his arm with storm light. He is absolutely a five star character. This and your ranking of Rysn, yells that y’all don’t remember Dawn shard at all
Rysn is not a throwaway character. You guys need to read Dawnshard. It’s basically entirely about her. I’m pretty sure if you read it you would rate her 4+ stats
I love that you guys are clearly fans like me, but also can’t remember everything and don’t know how to pronounce every single character’s names. That is so relatable because I am the exact same way. Makes me feel better and less guilty for not knowing or remembering every single thing, considering how much exists in these books.
Alright so imma defend Lirin a bit because I don’t think he’s as bad as y’all made him out to be. I think he’s dealing with trauma from his past just like Kaladin. Last time Lirin went against his principles (by stealing), the whole town turned against his family, both sons get sent to war, and, as far as he knew, both sons died. He probably blamed himself for years. He’s probably just trying to not repeat his past mistakes that cost him his children. Doesn’t mean he’s right but he’s better at hiding his trauma than Kaladin who’s always been more emotional. It’s how he copes by being cold and logical. (Also there’s this fun Lirin is honor theory I heard floating around)
@@2ToRamble I think it's worth pointing out you're comparing Lirin to high ranking authoritarian politicians like Dalinar who can be intensely proactive and efficient. He can make decisions without consulting the will of the people (obviously a very dangerous and double edged sword). He can move nations and change the world with a word. The only asset an average joe like Lirin has is his labor, his body, and what he does with it. I think pacifism is a profound statement in the context of a shitty Alethie civil war that serves no purpose other than to enrich the houses of the high princes while pitting the people against their kinsmen. Tien died for nothing. He's right to be angry. It's only after Odium is introduced, something that the common man (Lirin),is unequipped to comprehend or deal with, that his world view and ideology starts to show cracks. He was right; but now things are complicated in a way that we really can't expect normal people to understand. His treatment of Kaladin is unfortunate, but I honestly don't think the apple falls that far from the tree. They are both obstinate and frustrating people who are headstrong in their ideals. I also think Kaladin was in a much better mental place when he took Lirin's advice and focused on his studies. He was very supportive of Kal's attempts to study mental injuries and Kal seemed happier than he ever was until the reality of the Fused and what they represent forced him back into action. Lirin is very flawed and somewhat stuck in his ways, but I think he is generally if not specifically right about everything; however, he refuses to understand the contextual necessity to use force. He's just a man. And I respect him.
The unmade should have more than a single entry. At the very least, Sja-Anat, Ba-Ado-Mishram, and Re-Shephir as they all have distinct motivations. We will learn more about these 3, specifically.
@@2ToRamble I just want to add that no matter what or the comments us viewers leave, we all appreciate the content and the entertainment y'all create. Thank you for your time and creativity!
For me kaladins arc in rhythm of war works because it isn’t a repeat of his arc in oath bringer it is a continuation. He didn’t accept that he couldn’t save everybody and in rhythm of war he’s still freezing up because he’s terrified of letting more people die until he finally accepts there’s only so much he can do
@@ErckenInvader I agree. His arc in rhythm of war works because he failed in oathbringer. It makes sense that it took two books for him to swear this last ideal because from the very beginning Kaladin has always tried to save everyone and he beat himself up when he couldn’t. His detest of light eyes, he acquired after Roshone and Tien, but the need to save everyone goes down to the core of who he is. He cares too much. It wouldn’t have hit as hard if it was a one book fix.
I’m not a “Lirin apologist”, but I actually think Lirin and Kaladin are a great example of when family doesn’t get along because of their similarities. Don’t get me wrong, Lirin is still extremely frustrating, but he and Kal both have such an inflexible devotion to their respective oaths to help others, that it can actually becomes a detriment at times. In ROW, they both learn to view their oaths in a more flexible way. Lirin may be frustrating, but Kaladin is definitely his son.
Oh Kaladin is 1000% that man's son. Holy hell they are similar. The problem is that Lirin IS the parent. He is meant to be the mature one and understanding if his son's trauma. But Kaladin does all the heavy lifting in their relationship.
I guess the fact that my mind had blocked all memories of Lihrin until you two brought him up should say enough about my feelings lololol. This was so fun, and I am surprised by how many of these I agree on!! Can't wait for part 2 🤩
This was like watching a tier video of two people who have exclusively only read aboht characters in their breif wiki description. Lirin is a mirror of kaladin, Rysn is a major charactor. The Mink is spoken about way before book 4. Have you read the whole series???
Lirin reminds me of my father - no matter how successful I am in my career, he’s going to die disappointed that I never became a doctor. This is a very real and sad truth for Asian culture.
Thank you guys so much for saying that I'm the reason you read Stormlight! I'm happy to have gotten you into it. Woud you like to enlist in the Alethkar army? We have open positions for those who are Hairblessed, Hairless, or D-less. Here's your episode rating: Overall: 4.25 Emotional Impact: 4 Thought-provokingness: 3 Characters: 4.75 (would be 5 if not for Lirin) Plot: 3.5 Worldbuilding: 4.5 (for the new tier list) Prose: 4.5
Major third book spoilers. My favorite Sanderson character ever from all of his series is Elhokar. That's my main reason for liking Lirin more than Moash. No one is worse than him.
Ok guys, it’s time for me to try to change your mind about Lirin. First off, I’d like to say that if you hate Lirin, you should reread both the Way of King and Rythm of War and try to see the events therein from his perspective. Let’s tackle the common claims about Lirin. Lirin is a bad father : That one is complicated so let’s take it from the top. Lirin until Kaladin went to war, was a good father. He wasn’t the best in terms of managing his son’s more confrontational attitude, but he did his best in a country where war is seen as the pinnacle of what a man can accomplish. Overall, looking at the flashbacks in TWOK, he was compassionate, helped his son become a caring man and taught him so much wisdom that Kaladin quotes him regularly. He sacrificed a lot to give his son an education including lying about the spheres and handling the wrath of Roshone and his community just so he could pay for it. Kaladin is the person he is despite all the terrible things that happened to him because of his parents excellent, open minded and loving education. Now onto the case of Lirin in Rythm of War. He is not supportive there, far from it. But there is a lot going on for him too. He is a bad father in that book and that book only and mostly from part 2 onward. In the beginning of the book he still encourages his son to work on his therapy and tries to get him away from the battlefield and back in a stable and familiar environment. And while in the rest of the book his words to and about Kaladin are harsh his actions and intentions are not as bad as people make them out to be. That doesn’t excuse the horrible way he talked to or about Kaladin or the way he acts but we’ll see later why he acted that way. In conclusion, Lirin was a good father to Kaladin until RoW and then an asshole for the duration of the book before redeeming himself. Lirin’s pacifism doesn’t make sense : Now that one is more interesting because a lot of people seem to miss why Lirin acts the way he does in RoW. The first and most important thing people miss about Lirin is in chapter 43 on page 545 : “I can and will!” Lirin shouted, standing up. “Because I will take responsibility for what I’ve done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!” Lirin is a Bondsmith. Obviously he hasn’t actually become a radiant but he might as well be. Lirin like his son is a man of Honor. His word is his life. He strives for peace and unity. He explicitly thinks like a 3rd Ideal Bondsmith. He values this oath so much that he refuses to be responsible for the death of anyone, even by omission or by proxy. This is what gives him his edge as a surgeon. His absolute belief in that oath that allows him to make the tough decision to do as little harm as possible. To help the many and sacrifice the few. That’s part of the reason he submits to the fused. Because trying to resist will only result in more victims, and if he takes part in any for resistance, he might bring the Singer’s scorn to his family and his community. Speaking of his community, he is, like Dalinar and Navani, a pillar, a leader and he feels responsible for them. And he appears to us and Kaladin as strange and faithful to his beliefs as Dalinar would appear to us if we didn’t spend a third of the books in his head. So Lirin’s pacifism does indeed make sense. That’s the kind of man he is, a Bondsmith, a man of Honor, a sprenless Radiant. But that still doesn’t explain why he is so extreme in Rythm of War, while he seems much more reasonable in The Way of Kings. We’re going to take a look at that in the next part. Lirin’s behavior in RoW comes out of nowhere/is because of Tien’s death : Both of those statement are wrong. The first misses empathy for the man, the second misses the heart of the issue. A lot of Lirin’s behavior is explained by something he says himself in Hesina’s interlude : “Lirin,” she said softly. “You can’t keep blaming yourself for Tien’s death.” “Would he be dead if I hadn’t spent all those years defying Roshone? If I hadn’t picked a fight?” Lirin, wasn’t always so set in his way. He used to have a fighting spirit, much like his son. He lied about the spheres to give Kaladin an education and stood strong against Roshone. And what did that bring him ? His two sons were sent to war, one died and the other went missing and came back so scarred by it all he was unrecognizable. Do you realize what that does to a man like Lirin, a man who swore to do no harm ? He fought, he resisted and because of that two of the person he loved the most in the world were hurt beyond repair. From his perspective, as we’ve seen before, he might as well have killed Tien himself. That’s why he is a Radiant. Because he is broken and he uses his oaths as a way to rebuild himself. That’s also why he is so extreme in RoW, because he is convinced that any confrontation with an outside force will only bring him and those he cares for further pain. That does not fully explain his behavior toward Kaladin you might say, but it does indeed. He blames himself for all the trauma Kaladin received. Thus he believes it’s his responsability to "fix" his son. And he does it by trying to get him away to the battlefield, to bring back the "normal" Kaladin had before the war as his assistant. Unsurprisingly it doesn’t work but to him it’s just a setback, in his surgeon mind he can still fix it. Unfortunately for him, Kaladin kills a Singer in his home. That is the breaking point for Lirin. His son became a killer because of him, is suffering because of him and is in turn making other people suffer because of him. He cannot face it, so he retreats into his oaths and to his surgeon mind. If something is rotten you must excise it to save the rest. If my son is too far gone, then I have to stop focusing on him and instead on what I can still do. It is incredibly wrong, and even if he tries to act like he is truly angry at his son the truth is abundantly clear to those around him. For instance in chapter 83 : "He sounded angry, but those were fearspren at his feet. Not angerspren. The surgeon turned away and pretended to arrange his instruments. But humans were so full of emotion, it spilled out of them. He couldn’t hide what he was feeling from Venli. Frustration. Worry." Lirin is scared for Kal the entire time and while he moans, groans and postures, he does try his best to help his son within the constraints the occupation imposes on him. And it takes Hesina confronting him about it for him to finally open up, stop letting his trauma dictate the way he thinks and see his son for who he is. Not the boy he thought he failed by turning him into a monster, but the young man who did not turn into one because he taught him to care. He sees he was only hurting him again instead of being supportive. And he does try to make it right by getting the glyph on his forehead and by immediately and genuinely apologizing to his son, recognizing his perspective and his agency while not giving up on his principles for himself. He ends the book expressing his unconditional love and belief in what his son can do. It’s a beautiful thorough and subtle character arc that people misconstrue as him being an asshole for no reason because we don’t spend a lot of time in his head, and like his son he has a temper and can seem rather gruff on the outside. This is exacerbated that a lot of what he does or advocates to do (like cooperating with the Singers) was the wrong decision in hindsight. However, hindsight is always 20/20 and given the information he had, his decision to collaborate was the safest route for his community. In conclusion Lirin while he is not the best character in the series is still solidly written, has a beautiful character arc and explains a lot about who Kaladin is as a person, from his principles to his demeanor. He would not like you said, accept a knife to his son’s throat. And he is far from being the worst in the series. I hope it at least helped you reconsider you position on Lirin. Feel free to counter argument. I’d love to hear why I am wrong and Lirin is and always was a terrible person and character.
When I saw Moash over Lirin in the thumbnail my first thought was "that's crazy" but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Morally the choice is clear, but in terms of character development, I find Moash more compelling. Edit: oh I skpped to the relevant part, you actually HATE Lirin 😂 I can't say that I agree
Hard agree on Syl, to me she also steals every scene she's in. She adds the perfect amount of levity to Kaladin's story and it contrast so so well with her more serious moments. My favorite character hands down. Made me really happy when you guys gave her five stars ^^
I think the Pursuer is a very underrated villain because on surface level, he seems extremely generic, but I see him as a physical manifestation of Kaladin's depression and his self doubt, and for that reason I considered him a very compelling villain
I also think Lopen deserves a bit higher than 3. The Lopen for me just represents the type of person who is happy even when everything around them is super crappy. I don’t remember ever seeing him upset. He’s got one arm, been sold to a bridge crew, and not to mention the battles and destruction he witnesses. Yet, he never becomes burdened by his experiences. The people who can do that fascinate me (I probably relate to Kaladin a bit too much at times). The part that always stands out to me is when Lopen is visits the injured man in oathbringer after the big battle and shows him one armed tricks. At first you think it’s typical Lopen goofing off until near the end of the scene you find out, the injured man had lost his arm. Probably thinking he’s useless and his life is over, Lopen shows him what’s possible and gives him hope. The Lopen earned my respect.
I thought Navani was way too pushy towards Dalinar in book one and needed to respect when he said no more, but once they were together I liked their relationship.
IMHO the stronger path for Sadeas was if he never left the war camps. They talked about how the war camps here become the capitol of Alethkar, so after the split into Ur, having Sadeas being King of Alethkar would have allowed for a better foil. Especially with most of the listeners dead, he would keep the parshmen as slaves and the fused simply would have ignored the area as no longer strategically useful. This would complicate Dalinar’s recruitment of other nations, as they would say that there’s even a dispute on your own nation.
I enjoyed the starting argument about who's the bigger stormlight fan since it is one I used to have with a friend of mine until last fall... my daughter is named Jasnah and when she turns one this fall her black lab puppy named Ivory will be a part of the family as well. He's conceded the argument.
What if… Gavilar had been the one to get the Parshendi to send Szeth to assassinate him on purpose? If in his work he had come to the conclusion in order for the world to get through the True Desolation was a key flashpoint of his death? A foil to Taravangian’s “dark side”
Lirin is so close so many times to having SOME redeeming moment, but he fails every single time. I do not understand how he cannot get past his mental block in any way shape or form…. Lirin hate is justified
Hey 2ToRamble, it would be awesome if you guys did the preview chapters for SA5 which is coming out in a week or so. I remember you guys saying that you were gonna go inro SA5 blind so thats also fine. Just a suggestion
Okay, I'm not going to disagree with you guys about Lyrin, everyone else has already done that and I'm not crazy about him anyway. What I do want to share here is a theory I heard recently about him. Lyrin will take up the splinters of and become Honor. There's a LOT of easter eggs that support this. The explanation is on one of the fan pages but it basically chalks up to this: Lyrin embodies all TEN of the orders of knights radiant's oaths, in some way or another. Which may explain why his character feels so .. hard to get behind. I sincerely encourage y'all to check it out if you have a chance .. it was fascinating.
I agree that Lirin is the worst father character. He is old-fashioned with a "go only in this direction because there is no other; that's all I know" mentality. He offers no support for Kaladin and only worsens Kaladin's mental state. Lirin's character hates soldiers and seems to blame Kaladin's ambition for becoming a soldier for the death of his little brother. However, Kaladin chose the soldier's path in an attempt to rescue his brother. Despite being present when Kaladin volunteered for recruitment, Lirin failed to understand this. Therefore, he is the worst father.
I think you should change the stakes of the Lirin bet in honour of your Rysn snub. If Lirins actions are made understandable throughout the next book, you should buy the most deluxe version of Dawnshard that exists.
Also, I feel like Odium as a character deserves to be rated higher and needs to be discussed in more depth. Rayse as Odium is very old and wounded so as a vessel he's weak and is almost entirely just Odium. BUT he is not " just there". What he has done while being bound to the Rosharan system from becoming the god of humans to then somehow becoming the god of the singers, battling and ultimately killing Honour, wounded and stuck on Brayse but then manipulating his way into triggering the events of Gavalar's death-> singers summoning the Everstorm and in the present conquering the planet with his fused to grooming Dalinar as his champion for his future conquests even though he failed I think Moash's intentions after he gave into Odium unlike Dalinar can be better understood as Odium puppeteering him as his temporary champion. In the end I think Odium was a dang good villain and with Taravangian now carrying the shard it's even more terrifying.
I would put, a very substantial quantity of money, on Syl dying in book 5 😢 I suspect the zenith of Kals character arc will be him learning to continue alone.
okay here’s the thing with taravangian with what happens to him at the end of rhythm of war… that isn’t scary at all? Isn’t all of Taravangians thing that he wants to save as many people has he can? It seems the same if like dalinar became odium? Dalinar would also want to save people? Can someone explain where I’m wrong?
Well, I think he's scary because he can justify anything if he can twist it to be "for the greater good". Horribly murder people in a slow drawn out way in order to observe their dying prophetic utterances? It's a necessary evil. Throw the coalition of humanity under the bus? Oh well, it protects MY people in the long run. Also, I think that Taravangian's motives are not as pure as he thinks they are. He definitely had a god complex, even before he became an actual god. Now he has all that power and even more knowledge than when he was at his absolute smartest before. No more human frailty, no more variable intelligence, no more limited time frame, things which he clearly resented and thought prevented him from reaching his true potential before. There's no way he won't come to the conclusion that he can and should use all this new ability "for the greater good" aka, "wouldn't it really be better for everyone if I was in charge? I know best after all." I would not be surprised if he now considers Roshar to be expendable in light of the "good" of the larger cosmere. Also, remember that people who hold a shard are gradually influenced to act in accordance with that shard's nature. Odium will definitely push Taravangian to create more pain, hatred, and conflict. And Taravangian is smart enough to rationalize any such leanings as "sadly necessary" or some such nonsense and smart enough to be way more effective at actually achieving his twisted ends. He's basically the antithesis of "journey before destination". Honesty I am WAY more nervous about Taravangian than I ever was about Rayse.
I would disagree with your take on Lirin. I agree that Sanderson didn't set it up particularly well. What he does does make sense. When Lirin talks about violence hurting the person doing it, it comes off as if he has personal experience with it. In Oathbringer he told Kaladin that he agreed that people should fight in the desolation he just didn't want it to be Kaladin. As for Lirin in Rythym of War. It is important to remember that Kaladin is his son and he killed a singer in his home. It hurts a lot more when someone you deeply loves does something that you believe is not only morally wrong but is harmful to themselves. Secondly Kaladin killed someone in Lirin's home specifically in his surgery room. So there is a element of Kaladin defiling Lirin's surgery. Thirdly Kaladin was manhandling Lirin during that scene. In the Hesina interlude it is indicated that following the drafting of Kaladin and Tien. Lirin redoubled his pacifism stance because he in part got both of them drafted by standing up to Roshone. From his perceptive he got not only Tien killed but he believed that Kaladin was also killed for around a year. That would mess with pretty much anyone.
Yall don't know who Rysn is? For real? How can you be this obsessed with Stormlight and NOT have read Edgedancer and Dawnshard? It's fine to not read Edgedancer if you hate Lift (tho it does humanize her. Made me go from she's mildly annoying to actually loving her.) but you GOTTA read Dawnshard! So much happens in that book! It's not.just Rysn's book either. The Lopen is the B plot. It's AMAZING! Seriously, y'all owe it to yourselves to check it out. It's an incredible self contained side quests that takes place in the gap between books 3 and 4. Loved the video, regardless. And thanks for reminding me to check out the merch!
"there's not enough of Rysn" someone didn't read Dawnshard 😂
We havent 😂
@@2ToRamble tsk tsk tsk gentlemen
Dawnshard is fantastic
Rysn is also really important in the gemstone reserve scenes in the battle of Theylen City.
Even with Dawnshard, not enough Rysn.
"Is there too much Kaladin?"
No such thing :D
Video idea: A debate on Lirin’s philosophy & whether or not he is a good father, where Rich has to argue for Lirin’s position NO MATTER WHAT - I feel like this would result in some hilarious argument lol
😂
Lirin doesn't make sense? THE LAST TIME HE DEFENDED HIMSELF AGAINST ROSHONE HIS FUCKING SONS DIED. Resistince get's you no where and fighting only causes more bloodshed. Tien died and Kaladin form his POV died for years before suddenly coming back to life, BECAUSE he picked a fight with Roshone, because he couldn't save Roshone's son. He is a broken man who can't find the will to fight and needs to learn from his son, THAT IS THE POINT OF LIRIN. The Kaladin flashbacks clearly set him up as someone with a strong will who fights injustice but by the time we catch up with him, he's given up. AT NO POINT IS OREDEN"S LIFE IN DANGER, KALADIN SAVED TEFT. YOU DINGLEBERRIES
EXACTLY LIRIN IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE SIDE CHARACTERS. WHAT ARE THEY ON ABOUT? HE’S AN AMAZING FATHER WHO’ JUST LOOKING OUT FOR HIS SON???
Also it is heavily implied that Lirin used to be a fighter of some sort and that hurt/broke him. He decided that the best thing to do was to become a pacifist. He wants the best for his sons even though he is horribly unsupportive. His flaws are super interesting which is why I like him so much.
Lirin is a terrible father, a well written character but that dont mean I have to like him hes a jerk. Oh my son I thought was dead is miraculously alive and im worried about him being a soldier da fuqqqqq
People can have opinions on characters. And Lorin was that way BEFORE he lost his son. He was literally the same way since he was introduced in the book. Extremes in any end are not good for anyone
@@tuber7081 Lirin fought Roshone. He fought against an oppressive ruler for the sake of the people that hated him. And by the time of the ever storm, he can't bring himself to fight anymore. If Lirin doesn't make sense to you, you weren't paying attention, it's fine if you don't like him, but he makes sense.
The thing with Lirin, is there are people who are like that in real life. Real people often have motivations and lifestyles and life principles that make no sense. He is a frustrating character, but he’s not as poorly written and contrived as you make out. He is a very real character, and all the more frustrating for that
Thank you! His motivations are extremely internally consistent and even when he treats Kal the worst, I can see the parental instincts he is operating on. Lirin more than many characters should have a spren based on his dedication to his personal philosophy
Yes but if I ever met someone in real like who is like Lirin, I would think they’re extremely dumb and annoying. The point is that he is an extremely annoying character, which can still be true even if he is written consistently
@@BuggysNose correct. What they’re saying is not just that they are annoyed at the character but that he’s annoying because he’s poorly written. They’re not tanking the characters on likability but how well they are executed
People like Lirin are directly responsible for why the C word is used as an insult. People had to use a new tier of insult just for those people.
I know you’re probably not a ride or die for this opinion. It’s just that’s the thing tho. Everybody’s motivations actually do end up making sense in real life. Of course there was an attempt by Brandon to make Lirin make sense, but that doesn’t mean he does. Which is genuinely fine, of course there’s going to be a bad character or two in a fantasy series of this size. Also, to be fair there’s a theory about his character as somebody else mentioned in the comment section.
Actually ahu was jezrien
Idk how else to say it but Lirin is peak Indian/Asian dad so I think Sanderson writing that so effectively makes him pretty good
rysn is the main POV from dawnshard, so I would argue that she has screen time :D
did they forget completely? :D
and by what happened in Dawnshard, I guess she is going to be a important character in next 5 books. Unless the stuff happening in sunlit man is somehow connected to her.
Plus she was a POV during the battle of Thaylen City, guarding the perfect gemstone.
@@mckennamclaws146I was going to say, she had a small but important part in the final battle there. Rysn is a very important character.
Incredible they forgot our wheel chair bound, Insect Dragon Rider.
50:56 The Lopen did regrow his arm with storm light. He is absolutely a five star character. This and your ranking of Rysn, yells that y’all don’t remember Dawn shard at all
We havent read Dawnshard
100% agree. The Lopen is ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
@@2ToRamble read dawnshard wtf
Rysn is not a throwaway character. You guys need to read Dawnshard. It’s basically entirely about her. I’m pretty sure if you read it you would rate her 4+ stats
Rysn and Lopen have great character arcs in Dawnshard. highly recommend reading it if you havent!
Lmao calling Kaladin a bridgeburner... so close but so Malazan
So agree 😀😀😀❤️
I love that you guys are clearly fans like me, but also can’t remember everything and don’t know how to pronounce every single character’s names. That is so relatable because I am the exact same way.
Makes me feel better and less guilty for not knowing or remembering every single thing, considering how much exists in these books.
Can’t beleive neither of you have read Dawnshard
Did they forget about dawnshard lmao? Talking about rysn as a random side character when she literally holds the primal power of change
Alright so imma defend Lirin a bit because I don’t think he’s as bad as y’all made him out to be. I think he’s dealing with trauma from his past just like Kaladin. Last time Lirin went against his principles (by stealing), the whole town turned against his family, both sons get sent to war, and, as far as he knew, both sons died. He probably blamed himself for years. He’s probably just trying to not repeat his past mistakes that cost him his children. Doesn’t mean he’s right but he’s better at hiding his trauma than Kaladin who’s always been more emotional. It’s how he copes by being cold and logical.
(Also there’s this fun Lirin is honor theory I heard floating around)
Fair! We still have our hate for him but we can accept this opinion (i guess pshh)
@@2ToRamble I think it's worth pointing out you're comparing Lirin to high ranking authoritarian politicians like Dalinar who can be intensely proactive and efficient. He can make decisions without consulting the will of the people (obviously a very dangerous and double edged sword). He can move nations and change the world with a word. The only asset an average joe like Lirin has is his labor, his body, and what he does with it. I think pacifism is a profound statement in the context of a shitty Alethie civil war that serves no purpose other than to enrich the houses of the high princes while pitting the people against their kinsmen. Tien died for nothing. He's right to be angry. It's only after Odium is introduced, something that the common man (Lirin),is unequipped to comprehend or deal with, that his world view and ideology starts to show cracks. He was right; but now things are complicated in a way that we really can't expect normal people to understand.
His treatment of Kaladin is unfortunate, but I honestly don't think the apple falls that far from the tree. They are both obstinate and frustrating people who are headstrong in their ideals. I also think Kaladin was in a much better mental place when he took Lirin's advice and focused on his studies. He was very supportive of Kal's attempts to study mental injuries and Kal seemed happier than he ever was until the reality of the Fused and what they represent forced him back into action. Lirin is very flawed and somewhat stuck in his ways, but I think he is generally if not specifically right about everything; however, he refuses to understand the contextual necessity to use force. He's just a man. And I respect him.
😂 I’ll take it
I mean he doesn't blame himself enough cuz he keeps doing the same stuff.
Mink was actually introduced in Interludes way before book 4.
The unmade should have more than a single entry. At the very least, Sja-Anat, Ba-Ado-Mishram, and Re-Shephir as they all have distinct motivations. We will learn more about these 3, specifically.
Fair, it’s difficult for us to rate everything so tried to make a mix of getting granular but also not too granular. Good point tho
@@2ToRamble I just want to add that no matter what or the comments us viewers leave, we all appreciate the content and the entertainment y'all create. Thank you for your time and creativity!
@@TimFrie-GD Aw shucks, thanks a ton!
For me kaladins arc in rhythm of war works because it isn’t a repeat of his arc in oath bringer it is a continuation. He didn’t accept that he couldn’t save everybody and in rhythm of war he’s still freezing up because he’s terrified of letting more people die until he finally accepts there’s only so much he can do
@@ErckenInvader I agree. His arc in rhythm of war works because he failed in oathbringer. It makes sense that it took two books for him to swear this last ideal because from the very beginning Kaladin has always tried to save everyone and he beat himself up when he couldn’t. His detest of light eyes, he acquired after Roshone and Tien, but the need to save everyone goes down to the core of who he is. He cares too much. It wouldn’t have hit as hard if it was a one book fix.
I’m not a “Lirin apologist”, but I actually think Lirin and Kaladin are a great example of when family doesn’t get along because of their similarities. Don’t get me wrong, Lirin is still extremely frustrating, but he and Kal both have such an inflexible devotion to their respective oaths to help others, that it can actually becomes a detriment at times. In ROW, they both learn to view their oaths in a more flexible way. Lirin may be frustrating, but Kaladin is definitely his son.
Oh Kaladin is 1000% that man's son. Holy hell they are similar.
The problem is that Lirin IS the parent. He is meant to be the mature one and understanding if his son's trauma. But Kaladin does all the heavy lifting in their relationship.
dawnshard feels like a must especially for rysn backstory
I guess the fact that my mind had blocked all memories of Lihrin until you two brought him up should say enough about my feelings lololol. This was so fun, and I am surprised by how many of these I agree on!! Can't wait for part 2 🤩
😁
Stormlight hype for the win!
Looked it up, The Mink is listed on Coppermind under Dieno... must be his real name.
5:01 should I be doing my storm light reread to get ready for December, yes. But instead, I’m definitely listening to this on my commute.
I also bought the Stormlight miniatures and have never painted any before. They're still in the box on my basement floor 😬😂
This was like watching a tier video of two people who have exclusively only read aboht characters in their breif wiki description. Lirin is a mirror of kaladin, Rysn is a major charactor. The Mink is spoken about way before book 4. Have you read the whole series???
Post Wind and Truth prologue, Gavilar is a 4.5 for me at minimum.
Lirin reminds me of my father - no matter how successful I am in my career, he’s going to die disappointed that I never became a doctor. This is a very real and sad truth for Asian culture.
Lopin got his arm back 😜
WANNA SEE YOU PAINTING THE MINI-FIGS!
I would want to watch a four hour video of you two ranking stormlight characters : )
Thank you guys so much for saying that I'm the reason you read Stormlight! I'm happy to have gotten you into it. Woud you like to enlist in the Alethkar army? We have open positions for those who are Hairblessed, Hairless, or D-less.
Here's your episode rating:
Overall: 4.25
Emotional Impact: 4
Thought-provokingness: 3
Characters: 4.75 (would be 5 if not for Lirin)
Plot: 3.5
Worldbuilding: 4.5 (for the new tier list)
Prose: 4.5
😂
This is awesome! More character deep dives would be great! and please live stream the miniature painting that would be amazing!
Major third book spoilers.
My favorite Sanderson character ever from all of his series is Elhokar. That's my main reason for liking Lirin more than Moash.
No one is worse than him.
Found our people - Elhokar is such an incredible character!
Wait you used the Stormlight wiki instead of the Coppermind?
Ok guys, it’s time for me to try to change your mind about Lirin.
First off, I’d like to say that if you hate Lirin, you should reread both the Way of King and Rythm of War and try to see the events therein from his perspective.
Let’s tackle the common claims about Lirin.
Lirin is a bad father :
That one is complicated so let’s take it from the top. Lirin until Kaladin went to war, was a good father. He wasn’t the best in terms of managing his son’s more confrontational attitude, but he did his best in a country where war is seen as the pinnacle of what a man can accomplish. Overall, looking at the flashbacks in TWOK, he was compassionate, helped his son become a caring man and taught him so much wisdom that Kaladin quotes him regularly. He sacrificed a lot to give his son an education including lying about the spheres and handling the wrath of Roshone and his community just so he could pay for it. Kaladin is the person he is despite all the terrible things that happened to him because of his parents excellent, open minded and loving education. Now onto the case of Lirin in Rythm of War. He is not supportive there, far from it. But there is a lot going on for him too. He is a bad father in that book and that book only and mostly from part 2 onward. In the beginning of the book he still encourages his son to work on his therapy and tries to get him away from the battlefield and back in a stable and familiar environment. And while in the rest of the book his words to and about Kaladin are harsh his actions and intentions are not as bad as people make them out to be. That doesn’t excuse the horrible way he talked to or about Kaladin or the way he acts but we’ll see later why he acted that way.
In conclusion, Lirin was a good father to Kaladin until RoW and then an asshole for the duration of the book before redeeming himself.
Lirin’s pacifism doesn’t make sense :
Now that one is more interesting because a lot of people seem to miss why Lirin acts the way he does in RoW. The first and most important thing people miss about Lirin is in chapter 43 on page 545 :
“I can and will!” Lirin shouted, standing up. “Because I will take responsibility for what I’ve done! I will work within whatever confines I must in order to protect people! I have taken oaths not to harm!”
Lirin is a Bondsmith. Obviously he hasn’t actually become a radiant but he might as well be. Lirin like his son is a man of Honor. His word is his life. He strives for peace and unity. He explicitly thinks like a 3rd Ideal Bondsmith. He values this oath so much that he refuses to be responsible for the death of anyone, even by omission or by proxy. This is what gives him his edge as a surgeon. His absolute belief in that oath that allows him to make the tough decision to do as little harm as possible. To help the many and sacrifice the few. That’s part of the reason he submits to the fused. Because trying to resist will only result in more victims, and if he takes part in any for resistance, he might bring the Singer’s scorn to his family and his community.
Speaking of his community, he is, like Dalinar and Navani, a pillar, a leader and he feels responsible for them. And he appears to us and Kaladin as strange and faithful to his beliefs as Dalinar would appear to us if we didn’t spend a third of the books in his head.
So Lirin’s pacifism does indeed make sense. That’s the kind of man he is, a Bondsmith, a man of Honor, a sprenless Radiant. But that still doesn’t explain why he is so extreme in Rythm of War, while he seems much more reasonable in The Way of Kings. We’re going to take a look at that in the next part.
Lirin’s behavior in RoW comes out of nowhere/is because of Tien’s death :
Both of those statement are wrong. The first misses empathy for the man, the second misses the heart of the issue. A lot of Lirin’s behavior is explained by something he says himself in Hesina’s interlude :
“Lirin,” she said softly. “You can’t keep blaming yourself for Tien’s death.”
“Would he be dead if I hadn’t spent all those years defying Roshone? If I hadn’t picked a fight?”
Lirin, wasn’t always so set in his way. He used to have a fighting spirit, much like his son. He lied about the spheres to give Kaladin an education and stood strong against Roshone. And what did that bring him ? His two sons were sent to war, one died and the other went missing and came back so scarred by it all he was unrecognizable. Do you realize what that does to a man like Lirin, a man who swore to do no harm ? He fought, he resisted and because of that two of the person he loved the most in the world were hurt beyond repair. From his perspective, as we’ve seen before, he might as well have killed Tien himself. That’s why he is a Radiant. Because he is broken and he uses his oaths as a way to rebuild himself. That’s also why he is so extreme in RoW, because he is convinced that any confrontation with an outside force will only bring him and those he cares for further pain.
That does not fully explain his behavior toward Kaladin you might say, but it does indeed. He blames himself for all the trauma Kaladin received. Thus he believes it’s his responsability to "fix" his son. And he does it by trying to get him away to the battlefield, to bring back the "normal" Kaladin had before the war as his assistant. Unsurprisingly it doesn’t work but to him it’s just a setback, in his surgeon mind he can still fix it. Unfortunately for him, Kaladin kills a Singer in his home. That is the breaking point for Lirin. His son became a killer because of him, is suffering because of him and is in turn making other people suffer because of him. He cannot face it, so he retreats into his oaths and to his surgeon mind. If something is rotten you must excise it to save the rest. If my son is too far gone, then I have to stop focusing on him and instead on what I can still do. It is incredibly wrong, and even if he tries to act like he is truly angry at his son the truth is abundantly clear to those around him. For instance in chapter 83 :
"He sounded angry, but those were fearspren at his feet. Not angerspren. The surgeon turned away and pretended to arrange his instruments. But humans were so full of emotion, it spilled out of them. He couldn’t hide what he was feeling from Venli. Frustration. Worry."
Lirin is scared for Kal the entire time and while he moans, groans and postures, he does try his best to help his son within the constraints the occupation imposes on him. And it takes Hesina confronting him about it for him to finally open up, stop letting his trauma dictate the way he thinks and see his son for who he is. Not the boy he thought he failed by turning him into a monster, but the young man who did not turn into one because he taught him to care. He sees he was only hurting him again instead of being supportive. And he does try to make it right by getting the glyph on his forehead and by immediately and genuinely apologizing to his son, recognizing his perspective and his agency while not giving up on his principles for himself. He ends the book expressing his unconditional love and belief in what his son can do.
It’s a beautiful thorough and subtle character arc that people misconstrue as him being an asshole for no reason because we don’t spend a lot of time in his head, and like his son he has a temper and can seem rather gruff on the outside. This is exacerbated that a lot of what he does or advocates to do (like cooperating with the Singers) was the wrong decision in hindsight. However, hindsight is always 20/20 and given the information he had, his decision to collaborate was the safest route for his community.
In conclusion Lirin while he is not the best character in the series is still solidly written, has a beautiful character arc and explains a lot about who Kaladin is as a person, from his principles to his demeanor. He would not like you said, accept a knife to his son’s throat. And he is far from being the worst in the series.
I hope it at least helped you reconsider you position on Lirin. Feel free to counter argument. I’d love to hear why I am wrong and Lirin is and always was a terrible person and character.
PLEASE paint/unbox the stormlight mini figs on live!!!!!
Awesome video!!!!
Thank you!
When I saw Moash over Lirin in the thumbnail my first thought was "that's crazy" but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Morally the choice is clear, but in terms of character development, I find Moash more compelling.
Edit: oh I skpped to the relevant part, you actually HATE Lirin 😂 I can't say that I agree
You had us until you edited this 😂
Dudes. The Lopen below The Pursuer? Read Dawnshard!
Interesting video, big fan Brandon Sanderson books!! 😊
Hard agree on Syl, to me she also steals every scene she's in. She adds the perfect amount of levity to Kaladin's story and it contrast so so well with her more serious moments. My favorite character hands down. Made me really happy when you guys gave her five stars ^^
I think the Pursuer is a very underrated villain because on surface level, he seems extremely generic, but I see him as a physical manifestation of Kaladin's depression and his self doubt, and for that reason I considered him a very compelling villain
Interesting point!
I also think Lopen deserves a bit higher than 3. The Lopen for me just represents the type of person who is happy even when everything around them is super crappy. I don’t remember ever seeing him upset. He’s got one arm, been sold to a bridge crew, and not to mention the battles and destruction he witnesses. Yet, he never becomes burdened by his experiences. The people who can do that fascinate me (I probably relate to Kaladin a bit too much at times). The part that always stands out to me is when Lopen is visits the injured man in oathbringer after the big battle and shows him one armed tricks. At first you think it’s typical Lopen goofing off until near the end of the scene you find out, the injured man had lost his arm. Probably thinking he’s useless and his life is over, Lopen shows him what’s possible and gives him hope. The Lopen earned my respect.
I thought Navani was way too pushy towards Dalinar in book one and needed to respect when he said no more, but once they were together I liked their relationship.
IMHO the stronger path for Sadeas was if he never left the war camps. They talked about how the war camps here become the capitol of Alethkar, so after the split into Ur, having Sadeas being King of Alethkar would have allowed for a better foil. Especially with most of the listeners dead, he would keep the parshmen as slaves and the fused simply would have ignored the area as no longer strategically useful. This would complicate Dalinar’s recruitment of other nations, as they would say that there’s even a dispute on your own nation.
rip im only on page 120 of Oathbringer trying to watch this video. Ill bookmark this for later lmao
Lirin has his own trauma, he is dealing his own depression, making him come out as a coward.
I enjoyed the starting argument about who's the bigger stormlight fan since it is one I used to have with a friend of mine until last fall... my daughter is named Jasnah and when she turns one this fall her black lab puppy named Ivory will be a part of the family as well. He's conceded the argument.
1:17:30 One Power Ballads actually did a parody of Syl singing I Need a Hero called "Holding Out For Honour".
The Lopen has both arms now! 😂
And to put him below The Pursuer is unforgivable, gancho!
Did you guys not read Dawnshard?
We didnt!
@@2ToRamble oh then I guess what you said in the video about her makes sense, are you guys gonna get to it eventually?
@@2ToRamble ahh ok that makes more sense! How about Edgedancer?
@@nihftyy We did read Edgedancer -- we will get to Dawnshard!
I was so confused on their rysn placement but this makes sense
Rysn Ftori 14:14 is the main viewpoint character of Dawn shard. This is a very bad ranking. Even without Dawn shard, she jumped off the turtle
Thank you! They are not and should not be forgettable
I'd def watch you guys paint minifigs for the first time!
I hope Lopen is on the list lol going to Dragonsteel with my husband and we love your show , really hoping to bump into you guys !
🙏
The Lopen >
Me personally i want to watch a 4 hour video
Be careful what you wish for 😈
What if… Gavilar had been the one to get the Parshendi to send Szeth to assassinate him on purpose? If in his work he had come to the conclusion in order for the world to get through the True Desolation was a key flashpoint of his death? A foil to Taravangian’s “dark side”
Lirin is so close so many times to having SOME redeeming moment, but he fails every single time. I do not understand how he cannot get past his mental block in any way shape or form…. Lirin hate is justified
Hey 2ToRamble, it would be awesome if you guys did the preview chapters for SA5 which is coming out in a week or so. I remember you guys saying that you were gonna go inro SA5 blind so thats also fine. Just a suggestion
Thank you - we’ll talk this one out!
Okay, I'm not going to disagree with you guys about Lyrin, everyone else has already done that and I'm not crazy about him anyway. What I do want to share here is a theory I heard recently about him.
Lyrin will take up the splinters of and become Honor. There's a LOT of easter eggs that support this. The explanation is on one of the fan pages but it basically chalks up to this: Lyrin embodies all TEN of the orders of knights radiant's oaths, in some way or another. Which may explain why his character feels so .. hard to get behind. I sincerely encourage y'all to check it out if you have a chance .. it was fascinating.
Will have to look into that!
Me to Moash: awww its okay sweetheart you did nothing wrong (until he kills Teft).
Me to Lirin: WILL SOMEONE GET THIS BOZO OFF THIS BOOK?
😂
Hehe Austin def just read Gardens of the Moon with him calling the bridge-men “bridge-burners”
Ok just resumed the pod Rich beat me to it lol
Correction:
Lopen regrew his arm at the end of Words of Radiance.
Also. Adolin is pronounced "Aye-dolin" not "Add-olin"
Im pretty sure the Unmade are definitely charscters. I would put money on Ba-Ado-Mishram being the second arc's main villain.
I agree that Lirin is the worst father character. He is old-fashioned with a "go only in this direction because there is no other; that's all I know" mentality. He offers no support for Kaladin and only worsens Kaladin's mental state.
Lirin's character hates soldiers and seems to blame Kaladin's ambition for becoming a soldier for the death of his little brother. However, Kaladin chose the soldier's path in an attempt to rescue his brother. Despite being present when Kaladin volunteered for recruitment, Lirin failed to understand this. Therefore, he is the worst father.
Nohadon appears in one of Dalinar's visions.
Hey will you guys be reading the weekly pre-release chapter release Brando just announced?
Leaning no but maybe we will cave 😂
Rlain deserves to be above Hesina at minimum.
I was really hoping the Sibling would bond with Rlain over Navani
I think you should change the stakes of the Lirin bet in honour of your Rysn snub. If Lirins actions are made understandable throughout the next book, you should buy the most deluxe version of Dawnshard that exists.
Also, I feel like Odium as a character deserves to be rated higher and needs to be discussed in more depth.
Rayse as Odium is very old and wounded so as a vessel he's weak and is almost entirely just Odium. BUT he is not " just there". What he has done while being bound to the Rosharan system from becoming the god of humans to then somehow becoming the god of the singers, battling and ultimately killing Honour, wounded and stuck on Brayse but then manipulating his way into triggering the events of Gavalar's death-> singers summoning the Everstorm and in the present conquering the planet with his fused to grooming Dalinar as his champion for his future conquests even though he failed
I think Moash's intentions after he gave into Odium unlike Dalinar can be better understood as Odium puppeteering him as his temporary champion.
In the end I think Odium was a dang good villain and with Taravangian now carrying the shard it's even more terrifying.
So much excitement going into book 5 beacuse of that Taravangian/Odium plotline
The Lopen disrespect is insane. By the way he grew his arm back, big part of the book as it showed more of what stormlight could do. Geesh…
great topic for video
😁
Tien is the most impactful death in Stormlight.
rock is going to have a novella called horneater
I would put, a very substantial quantity of money, on Syl dying in book 5 😢 I suspect the zenith of Kals character arc will be him learning to continue alone.
okay here’s the thing with taravangian
with what happens to him at the end of rhythm of war… that isn’t scary at all? Isn’t all of Taravangians thing that he wants to save as many people has he can? It seems the same if like dalinar became odium? Dalinar would also want to save people? Can someone explain where I’m wrong?
Well, I think he's scary because he can justify anything if he can twist it to be "for the greater good". Horribly murder people in a slow drawn out way in order to observe their dying prophetic utterances? It's a necessary evil. Throw the coalition of humanity under the bus? Oh well, it protects MY people in the long run. Also, I think that Taravangian's motives are not as pure as he thinks they are. He definitely had a god complex, even before he became an actual god. Now he has all that power and even more knowledge than when he was at his absolute smartest before. No more human frailty, no more variable intelligence, no more limited time frame, things which he clearly resented and thought prevented him from reaching his true potential before. There's no way he won't come to the conclusion that he can and should use all this new ability "for the greater good" aka, "wouldn't it really be better for everyone if I was in charge? I know best after all." I would not be surprised if he now considers Roshar to be expendable in light of the "good" of the larger cosmere. Also, remember that people who hold a shard are gradually influenced to act in accordance with that shard's nature. Odium will definitely push Taravangian to create more pain, hatred, and conflict. And Taravangian is smart enough to rationalize any such leanings as "sadly necessary" or some such nonsense and smart enough to be way more effective at actually achieving his twisted ends. He's basically the antithesis of "journey before destination". Honesty I am WAY more nervous about Taravangian than I ever was about Rayse.
38:50 stretch out thy hand kaladin
“Comment why you are wrong” 🤣
Ah yes, Ryan and Vistim
The Lopen is great!! Hilarious
The lopen is amazing how dare you
If Lopen isnt S teir, we riot ❤
👀👀
@2ToRamble he DID regrow his arm btw.
Riot post-poned because of the Rock love 😂❤🎉
You air sick low-landers.
@@2ToRamble Life before death, strength before weakness, Death before Pancakes!
Love to hear you say bridgburners
If rock isnt S tier this list is void
His name is "The Lopin"
Lirin only exists to be the side of kaladin that struggles with killing. Lirin is nothing else
lirin slander is crazy, bro is the next bondsmith
We’d be livid 😂
The Lirin hate is so unfounded and indicates that you all have totally misunderstood his character.
I would disagree with your take on Lirin. I agree that Sanderson didn't set it up particularly well. What he does does make sense. When Lirin talks about violence hurting the person doing it, it comes off as if he has personal experience with it. In Oathbringer he told Kaladin that he agreed that people should fight in the desolation he just didn't want it to be Kaladin.
As for Lirin in Rythym of War. It is important to remember that Kaladin is his son and he killed a singer in his home. It hurts a lot more when someone you deeply loves does something that you believe is not only morally wrong but is harmful to themselves. Secondly Kaladin killed someone in Lirin's home specifically in his surgery room. So there is a element of Kaladin defiling Lirin's surgery. Thirdly Kaladin was manhandling Lirin during that scene.
In the Hesina interlude it is indicated that following the drafting of Kaladin and Tien. Lirin redoubled his pacifism stance because he in part got both of them drafted by standing up to Roshone. From his perceptive he got not only Tien killed but he believed that Kaladin was also killed for around a year. That would mess with pretty much anyone.
Wait did I miss Dalinar , where is he ?
He’s in Part 2 of this video!
Lopen has both arms now.
55:35 The Minks real name is Dieno enne Calah
Whaaat? How do you hate Lirin? Lirin is amazing, and very well written from what I remember.
Yall don't know who Rysn is? For real? How can you be this obsessed with Stormlight and NOT have read Edgedancer and Dawnshard? It's fine to not read Edgedancer if you hate Lift (tho it does humanize her. Made me go from she's mildly annoying to actually loving her.) but you GOTTA read Dawnshard! So much happens in that book! It's not.just Rysn's book either. The Lopen is the B plot. It's AMAZING! Seriously, y'all owe it to yourselves to check it out. It's an incredible self contained side quests that takes place in the gap between books 3 and 4. Loved the video, regardless. And thanks for reminding me to check out the merch!
We will check it out!
Wish I could watch this episode, but I haven’t read the stormlight archive, only Mistborn era one and Skyward. I am currently half way into Starsight.
I wish I could be you and read everything for the first time again. :D
@@FragmentedTV I think I definitely need to read the way of kings before the end of this year.
better to check the copper mind instead of the stormlight wiki, also his name is dieno enne calah
not related but interesting choice to place fourth wing next to light bringer lmao
Lol
I don’t remember so many characters 😂. But I do remember, Lirin sucks