How Paper Mario Lost Its Way (Until Recently)
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
- Paper Mario is a storied spinoff series with a...complicated reputation. While it began as a pair of RPGs with an alternate take on Mario's world, a desire to keep the games fresh, interesting, and not redundant led to constant change and experimentation...with very mixed results. While its earlier titles are highly regarded to this day, opinions about every game since have been split, with many considering Sticker Star onward to be a "dark age". One that Paper Mario has only started to climb out of, thanks to having a remake of one of said earlier titles on the way.
So...what went wrong?
Let's look at why Paper Mario went in the directions it did at the time, how Sticker Star became so widely seen as the series' low point, and why the games afterward have struggled so hard to recapture the interest their predecessors once had. The truth is more complicated than most knee-jerk reactions online would have you think.
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Support via Patreon at: / delzethin
Graphic design by Voyager: / fire_voyager
Post-production assistance by Neoxon: / neoxon619
Additional Sources:
Article - Iwata Asks (Paper Mario: Sticker Star): web.archive.or...
Misc. - Metacritic Scores for “Modern” Paper Mario Games: www.metacritic... www.metacritic... www.metacritic...
Misc. - Video Game Sales Wiki on Mario & Luigi Series: vgsales.fandom...
Misc. - Video Game Sales Wiki on Paper Mario Series: vgsales.fandom...
(For video sources, check the pinned comment! Wasn't enough room to put them all here.)
![Paper Mario's Fandom Explained With a Broken Family Analogy [Redux]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/f2z6jTUcybM/mqdefault.jpg)
![Paper Mario's Fandom Explained With a Broken Family Analogy [Redux]](/img/tr.png)
Video sources, since there wasn't enough space for them in the description:
Mario & Luigi: Bowser’s Inside Story + Bowser Jr.’s Journey - Launch Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/C-dNKVTzZzI/видео.html
Mario & Luigi: Dream Team - E3 ‘13 Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/qlCfGXxZCrU/видео.html
Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam - Walkthrough, Part 2 (BeardBear): ruclips.net/video/qv5LnXNW3uk/видео.html
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - Playthrough, Part 2 (SullyPwnz): ruclips.net/video/1DOxjxlsqGg/видео.html
Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser’s Minions - Launch Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/dK49yoDQ2AA/видео.html
Mario Party 9 - E3 2011 Trailer (Wii Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/Tv6PfwvEtjc/видео.html
New Super Mario Bros. Wii - Final Boss (iDeactivateMC): ruclips.net/video/Ihei0ngHHdU/видео.html
New Super Mario Bros. U - World 1 Walkthrough (Typhlosion4President): ruclips.net/video/V7fzSIEOSmQ/видео.html
Paper Mario (64) - Nintendo Switch Online Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/mZU9sbtU0mc/видео.html
Paper Mario: Color Splash - Golden Coliseum Gameplay (Mario Party Legacy): ruclips.net/video/vn4vqVklw3k/видео.html
Paper Mario: Color Splash - “The Adventure Unfolds” Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/7ZyerryUkoc/видео.html
Paper Mario: Color Splash - Walkthrough, Part 3 (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/OP7S0Mg71gI/видео.html
Paper Mario: Color Splash - Walkthrough, Part 18 (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/yidE6Ujf39I/видео.html
Paper Mario: The Origami King - Announcement Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/FX6DTLcWUdY/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - E3 ‘12 Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/3U2cTOnhMmU/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - Oct ’12 Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/O6Yw8nMfJkA/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - Intro & Decalburg (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/-FWq5nLcUCs/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-1 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/JhhQ3syXXqk/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-1 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/iVrpI6WNfR0/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-3 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/gPLcn0xeBNQ/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-4/1-5 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/zxBG6JlQ1w8/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 1-6 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/eYrdMmkZEmM/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 2-4 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/1jKZqEdXMn0/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 2-5 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/lvlrKOS_oZ4/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-1/3-2/3-3 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/tDFdVFQ8Sf0/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-5 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/gAIG8EwBu88/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-6/3-7/3-8 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/VeH2gVMHsHQ/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-10 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/JZC3I1Hw9dE/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-11 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/whTkDbb63Ts/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 3-12 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/za89tQbn_3w/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 4-1/4-2 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/wXLvzLEOkeA/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 4-3 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/Yjbl6O_8em8/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 4-6 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/4BKlt9j7qTU/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 5-2/5-3 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/2UMtzptKags/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 5-6 Walkthrough (ZackScottGames): ruclips.net/video/Ai4atMrLcUA/видео.html
Paper Mario: Sticker Star - World 6-3 Walkthrough (Packattack04082): ruclips.net/video/ANgVWcPcPjg/видео.html
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 1 (Ninbanyan): ruclips.net/video/ptKmWnI-LNY/видео.html
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 7 (Ninbanyan): ruclips.net/video/vghbbSj_5rs/видео.html&
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 25 (Ninbanyan): ruclips.net/video/evxZMZDejvE/видео.html
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door - Walkthrough, Part 33 (Ninbanyan): ruclips.net/video/fjdTTRPurSg/видео.html
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Remake) - Sep ’23 Nintendo Direct Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/8Ume5pSIcKE/видео.html
Super Mario Bros. Wonder - Launch Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/XvQNlGKNC6o/видео.html
Super Mario RPG (Remake) - June ’23 Nintendo Direct Trailer (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/0r5PJx7rlds/видео.html
Super Mario RPG - Playthrough, Part 1 (Japancommercials4U2): ruclips.net/video/V5hysWlz2UE/видео.html
Super Paper Mario - Mr. L Boss Fight (BossBattleChannel): ruclips.net/video/3sCQzxsMQaw/видео.html
Super Paper Mario - Playthrough, Part 2 (SullyPwnz): ruclips.net/video/E4I3i1F7eQc/видео.html
It's just feels like another typical old school Paper Mario fan video........ And that is bad
If you're taking suggestions for series to talk about, how about you talk about Wario Land... if you're into that series, anyway. I really love the Wario Land games, and while I also love WarioWare, I always felt an aspect of Wario is missing from WarioWare that the Wario Land series provided. Perhaps you could potentially look into this? Again, if you're interested in the series.
What I like about Mario RPG games is that the enemies in the Mushroom Kingdom are treated like civilians who shared the same neighbourhood as the Toads and be independent outside of Bowser's army.
Not to mention that new Mario species can be added into the Paper world, so if Piantas appeared in _The Thousand Year Door,_ then Bonneters and Broodals should do the same in the future Paper Mario titles.
Jup, they felt like individuals. A good examples are the boos from both PM64 and TTYD. In PM64, the boos are mischievious, but ultimately friendly and sociable, while in TTYD they are more isolated and hermit-like. Such nuance is barely there in the new games. I heard Origami King tried to remedy this, but aside from giving mooks the punch-clock villain treatment and trying to define them as a species, there isn`t much there.....
@@aureliodeprimus8018 The unique designs of the friendly NPCs in PM64 and TTYD are often very simple touches (Like Goombario's hat and rounded teeth). But even those little details add so much personality and memorability. Compare that to... say... the Bob-Omb ally in Origami King. He's nicknamed Bob, but his name is literally Bob-Omb. And what's his unique characteristic? He has no fuse.
Now, I've heard people say that Bob was a well-written character, which is fair. But from an aesthetic perspective, he just doesn't hold a candle to Bombette or Admiral Bobbery. If it wasn't for those ridiculous restrictions on Nintendo's part, Bob could have really soared in popularity.
Hell, we didn't even get to see anything from Galaxy yet, which was next in line. Super Paper Mario released prior to Galaxy.
@@tyg-zw7nn Like a conflict between Regular bunnies un the Mushroom Kingdom and Star bunnies on the moon, being forced to be some sort of third party on it that Will end up becoming enemy of both sides because of trying to help the other one, and all because of the Broodals that are using the abandoned X-Naut's base decided to attack both bunny races, recruiting Madame Broodal's Golden Chomp in the process.
That did not used a new character, just preexisting ones at the time of Origami King's release, and can happen because Paper Mario is not our Regular Mario so you can write like if it was a fanfic.
I always found it interesting that Super Paper Mario was the way it was due to originally being developed for the Game Cube. So in order to prevent redundancy and to make it stand out from TTYD, they opted for the platformer with RPG elements style as a result. It just happened to be taking long enough to bake in the oven that development shifted to the Wii. Good video too.
If SPM was just that, a spin-off and an aberration, I'd look upon it more favorably, in spite of its flaws.
*_“If you change too little, it remains the same game. If you change too much, it becomes an entirely different game.”_*
Should of kept the Gameplay mechanics but expanded upon that, keep/recruit partners and have a great story. Basically Paper Mario to Paper Mario TTYD.
Yeah they overhauled the game multiple times after the TTYD which is weird because most other mario series like the Kart, Party, platformer all maintained consistency.
@@vulcanraven9701 Exactly! AND Star Fox, AND ZELDA (OOT to wind waker).
Mario bros. 1, mario 2, mario bros. 3, super mario world.
etc etc!
@@starless4146 i agree. Paper Mario fans just want the series to maintain consistency as an RPG. if Nintendo is going to do all these weird changes, they should just make it a separate series and not call them : "Paper Mario". I want the old Paper Mario back
@@vulcanraven9701 Spoken like a true Arlo Loyalist fan like me (When it comes to Paper Mario).
With Sticker Star, there's one point you didn't bring up that I feel is worth mentioning. Through different interviews and the like with developers around the time of its development and release, it's said that Miyamoto felt the game was 'too similar' to The Thousand-Year Door, and while it's hard to tell exactly WHAT he said to the developers, the different reports and accounts meant that for a while, a significant portion of the fandom felt like he was personally responsible for 'ruining' Paper Mario, if not Mario as a whole. It might not be possible to determine who said what or who was directly responsible for the way Sticker Star turned out, but another mark of the game's legacy is that it was partially responsible for turning one of the biggest names in Nintendo into 'the bad guy' in the eyes of burned fans.
On top of that, it also managed to create a bit of a dilemma.
If these interviews(/rumors?) are to be believed, it usually either means that Miyamoto OR Tanabe was ‘the bad guy’ in that scenario; and both have good track records.
So even IF Miyamoto were to be ‘cleared’ of these ‘allegations’ (for a lack of better words), it the one blame to blame would be another big name at the company.
Considering Tanabe’s good record otherwise, like Metroid Prime for example; that would also be a weird inconsistency!
@@SwedenTheHedgehog That being said, the most likely scenario was Miyamoto told them to make something unique, and japanese culture made stuff easy to go very out of their way. Miyamoto in general does not understand RPGs.
There's no doubt about Miyamoto being integral to Nintendo's success, and is an inspiration to many video game developers. And while many regular consumers aren't aware of it, Miyamoto was also an integral part to Nintendo's companies' growth in discipline and work ethic - he was often described as something close to a slave driver or tyrant (making people scrap things and do it all over again, repeatedly), and yet people's works seemed to exponentially improve under his wing.
However, as time went on, as Miyamoto became less and less involved in the actual development of video games (being less present - and more just: shout one thing and then leave for the day), he became more of a hindrance to Nintendo's games than a help.
And while we can try to point fingers at other key members, it's clear Miyamoto was the biggest thorn in Nintendo's heel. Paper Mario and Mario & Luigi failed due to his mandates... but let's not forget why Star Fox Zero went down a road that made it nigh-on irredeemable, and was very unlike a game that Platinum Games would create.
Miyamoto was losing touch with game development - that much was certain.
Had he not been in charge of people's decisions during the Wii and Wii U years, those years would've turned out very differently for Nintendo, arguably much better (obviously the Wii did very well, but it could have done MUCH better).
Thankfully... he's been distracted.
By sending him to work on Nintendo World and movies, he's completely removed himself from control over the development of Nintendo games... and Nintendo's development teams are recovering because of it.
All of this (including interviews) really goes to show the difference between the personalities and potential between Miyamoto and Iwata.
Miyamoto was the genius that could turn lead into gold. He was a hard worker, too. Being both a genius and a hard worker made him a juggernaut of a perfectionist. But when his works were praised and put on a pedestal, his ego was stroked and puffed up. Having gained the praise and accolades, he had far less reason to push himself to continue making gold - instead foisting that responsibility onto others, and blaming the outcome on their own incompetence. He had an eye for talent and an understanding of methods to success, but without being on the ground-floor with everyone else, without the push to compete in the same field, he was more of a bane than a boon to the company he helped succeed.
Iwata was a hard worker who chased after Miyamoto, trying to best him since he theoretically knew how to turn lead into gold - and yet all he could ever create was silver. After years of never catching up, he humbled himself and decided to use his knowledge to help others. And while he himself couldn't turn things into gold, nor could he give people those secrets (since it was all just failed theories), he gave them the lessons he had learned, he gave them patience he didn't give himself, and more importantly: he gave them an environment that encouraged growth, rather than stifled failures. Despite never being the genius whose successes pulled Nintendo into the spotlight, he gave much more to Nintendo than Miyamoto ever could.
I don't hold any ill feelings towards Miyamoto, and no one can overstate the impact he made to the company... but he's undeniably out of touch with game development now.
@@mrdocena8082Miyamoto isn't out of touch with game development and in no way was a hindrance to Nintendo's games than a help. He never just shouted one thing than left for a day, this whole essay is extremely unenlightened and downright insulting by accusing him of things he didn't even do and being like "thank goodness he was distracted" like who do you think you are? Miyamoto was never a thorn in Nintendo's heel let alone a big one, the Paper Mario series and M&L series didn't fail at all. Nothing was due to his mandates, your blaming him for everything typical toxic behavior in this community.
He pushed the changes for Sticker Star and that was it. He barely had any involvement in Color Splash and had absolutely zero involvement in Origami King. He also never put any "mandates" on the M&L series or the Paper Mario series. The "mandates" you speak of were Intelligent System's own IP team keeping the rules over their heads. The director, developers, and writers have even expressed their distaste with the rules. It wasn't Miyamoto's fault and he wasn't keeping anything on them. Star Fox Zero also isn't "irredeemable" it's clear that you're an upset fanboy mouthing off Miyamoto cause you think he "ruined" the series you like when he did nothing of the sort.
Miyamoto was never the "bad guy" in any scenario and the fans thinking that are both unenlightened and idiotic. I mean imagine calling someone the "bad guy" for just making a game in a direction you personally aren't a fan of. Look at the various wikis and articles on these game's developments. Miyamoto did push the changes for Sticker Star, but he had little to no involvement in Color Splash and absolutely zero involvement in Origami King. It was Intelligent System's IP team that kept mandates over the series going forward. They wouldn't let them modify existing Mario characters or create entirely new ones. The director, developers, and even writers expressed their distaste with those rules. Sticker Star is still a good fun game despite how it turned out and none of the three modern games are a "dark era" in the series. They're merely just the series trying new things which actually started back with Super Paper Mario. Nothing was Miyamoto's fault.
Paper Mario was beloved because, despite the setting, it took itself seriously. Same thing as Kingdom Hearts. Just because it has kid friendly elements the underlined theme and messages were anything but; and that’s what made it special. Dumbing it all down just feels like an insult to our intelligence.
Agreed. That is why King Olly as a villain vexes me to no end. They wanted to write a kind of tragic villain, but the execution is so incredibly stupid.
So does the modern games. And even if they did dumb things down, there's nothing wrong with that. You forget that these aren't solely made for you or people like you but younger audiences as well. Nothing should feel like an insult to anyone's intelligence, that's just you being very sensitive.
@@chrange9714 The older games were made for younger audiences as well so what’s your point?
@@nixuniverse5240 Exactly, so why are you acting as though they're so much differently depicted than the modern ones. No my guy, what is YOUR point? My point is that none of the games have been dumbed down and even if they were there's nothing wrong with slightly dumbing down things.
@@aureliodeprimus8018 If he vexes you to no end then you are really sad as he is both tragic and extremely misguided in his own ignorance and vengeance. The execution was fantastic and nowhere near "incredibly stupid" please spare me with that. It showed how people can make mountains out of mole hills acting on instinct and emotion rather than taking time to stop and think. It doesn't surprise me at all that this went over your head and you just wrote him off as "stupid."
Well,you've got to take a look at chibi-robo series...it's tragic...
Yeah, well this one didn't even get off the ground. Despite how amazing it is.
One thing that always seems to get ignored was that Thousand Year Door *already was* the perfect blueprint for how you could shake up the formula while still keeping the core experience that everyone loved about the original. Thousand Year Door's real innovation is often downplayed to defend the superficial "innovation" of the recent games
Absolutely! So very true.
It's clear that Paper Mario (and the Mario franchise as a whole) around Sticker Star's debut had an identity crisis. It didn't help that it was anchored by these safe mandates instead of being experimental and wonky in its own charming way. Do I even need to get started on the bevy of Toads, which ironically enough was the motive for King Olly's plot in TOK?
Safe in the worst of eras.
The Origami King, despite its improvements, has such a horrible uncanny valley effect. Look at every detail of The Origami King and you will feel the developers straining to do 64/TTYD Paper Mario again. The weird “turn-based” battle system. The fact that they bother to put places in unique situation knowing it is temporary. The same goes for the eight unique characters, King Olly and his Legion of Stationery and Olivia. The Legion in particular for some reason have very strong personalities despite generally only being seen for a few minutes and then the boss battle. There is worldbuilding, but the worldbuilding is just one incident between Captain T. Ode and the Shangri-Spa employees. Its version of Snifit or Whiffit is better than Color Splash’s but not as fun as Sticker Star’s. There is an effort to document unique items via a museum. Surprisingly, Princess Peach is not in distress; Bowser is, and he joins but it is never enough. This is in spite of the fact Bowser, Kamek, and Bowser Jr are fleshed here.
In reality that bad era started with SPM though.
@@iantaakalla8180yeah its almost like they know the first paper mario format worked but choose to disown it anyway lol
9:19 - 10:45 This alternate version of Sticker Star gameplay you suggested actually sounds like a fun game. Different, but doesn't spit on its roots.
Origami king didn’t bring back exp. Why am I going to stop and do a battle on purpose if I don’t get anything out of it.
That's a fair flaw. It's the one thing I found weird about the game. Battles can be fun, but there's very little incentive to do it outside of more confetti which you can get elsewhere, albeit in smaller chunks.
But everything else about the game helps me get past that.
I think the issue is that they front-load your wallet too fast for being the early game as I did find battles to be worth it if there’s something to buy. The figure collectibles being my main drive.
Because Murder is Fun
@@Dr.juiceboxtvnot enough for me and others sorry just mud for me at best.🤷♂️
@@gboogie3257 I think the same
If it wasn't for Origami Kings pointless/convoluted battle-puzzle system I would have been alright with it (imagine playing Super Mario World and every time you stomp on a koopas head, you had to play rock/paper/scissors, answer a trivia question, and then do the hokey-pokey).
Honestly, if we could get a Paper Mario with RPG mechanics and a decent story that's all I really want...add badges and partners and I'll be over the moon.
Do you have a moment to hear about our lord and savior Alex Kidd?
It’s battle system was fine, they just played things too safe.
Sounds like a Skill Issue
Origami King's ring system is my ideal Paper Mario battle style. It stands out and is more fun than the other style more akin to Mario and Luigi.
@@autobotstarscream765BAH-*slaps knee*
HAhahahHaHaHAhahahahahahahahHAAAhaHAHAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA
*breathing intensifies*
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-*breath*
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
*breath*
*HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA*
I thought it was the fact that after super paper mario, people cited the drop in story telling and the lack of partners in Sticker Star, Color Splash and The Origami King.
it is , op is simple wrong in most of this vid
Honestly, the original N64 Paper Mario should have been remade for the 3DS, just like Star Fox 64, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask were. That would have been preferable to Sticker Star.
Thanks for the video! One thing I do want to point out that I didn't see you mention was the presence of the Sticker Star beta we know existed, that was debuted at one of their events as a very early build of the game. Within it, we see the beginning of the sticker-type format, but also see a Chain Chomp with Mario that acts much more similarly to the earlier games' partners (featuring in battles and having an overworld ability from the documented clips (it behaved similarly to koopa partners)).
I can only imagine this extensively added to the vitriol of early entry fans after Sticker Star released so differently, as we _know_ it could have had things like partners, and that those elements were removed during production even after some had been already made. (The Chain Chomp partner is often alluded to by such fans to explain what was removed, and is mildly iconic of the loss/shift in franchise direction.) Adding to the knowledge we have of the screenshots and even some small clips of the beta build, it makes the change seem even more related to the statements made by higher ups who wanted it to be different from the earliest entries just to be different.
Pretty good video.
Gives a fine outlook on the whole situation. My only grip is you gave a half-truth about CS & TOK's reputation.
They're not disliked SOLELY cause they're related to Sticker Star, rather they contain many of Sticker Star's flaws.
Mainly the odd Creative and Fun Limitation that don't help the games, as well as the niche-at-best Combat systems which make up a good chunk of the game.
If those problems weren't present, more people probably wouldn't have been bothered by the Sticker Star roots.
And considering Miyamoto himself said the game was boring during the time of release, there's no excuse here. Continuing the same gameplay and making it arguably worse in Color Splash is just asinine, and being meta about your problems instead of fixing those is just a jerk move. While there's an overreaction, it's easy to see why it exists and its reasoning, to the point I can't believe Color Splash and Origami King didn't fix it.
I half-agree. The biggest problem was that the series' charm was sacrificed for the sake of gimmicks. No matter what industry - art, music, games, science, math, law - you're going to end up falling in a heap if you're relying on gimmicks and novelties to drive you forward instead of ensuring everything is fundamentally solid. Gimmicks are the auxiliary aspects that one should use to keep things fresh. TTYD did that perfectly with the paper abilities and the random 2D Bowser levels. Sticker Star, Color Splash and TOK made these silly gimmicks the entire premise of their games.
If we can suggest other series to talk here, I of course have to comment on Star Fox and how the series is basically on a slumber now, and how modern Pokémon is pretty much an insult to gaming
"Trying something new" would be fine if it wasn't so actively anti-fun the way Sticker Star was; did no one on the team say "hey, requiring exactly 1 specific Thing to beat a boss with no advance clues is obtuse and unfair, let's not do that"? (among the many other issues noted here) And then immediately starting a sequel using the exact same mechanics because there was clearly nothing wrong with it? Even if each game inches a little bit closer to what fans want, it feels like they're just doing the bare minimum to try and make people stop complaining, or just don't understand why fans want those things.
I think that Origami King is a potentially genuinely good game being hamstrung by poor design and stubborn restrictions; character personalities are a lot stronger, environments are more interesting, each boss puts some new crazy twist on the combat. It's just unfortunate that the same issues (pointless combat, no genuinely new named Marioverse characters, failing to understand what fans want) bring it down.
love your channel, glad to see it reaching its arms out
How about that? Another What Went Wrong video! I've honestly got no issue with that as it's a nice way to bring in some stuff to discuss about every now, and again! Yeah, it is a shame that both the Paper Mario, and Mario & Luigi RPG series fell off around the late-2000s to mid-2010s (RIP AlphaDream)... And while I do think Color Splash, and Origami King were overall better compared to Sticker Star (despite also being worse in other areas at the same time), it's still disappointing that the PM franchise lost its magic around the seventh to ninth generation of video game consoles. But hey, at least The Thousand-Year Door is getting a full on remake (fully arranged BGM, and all, which I greatly appreciate, as some video game remakes just don't seem to take any risks, and just reuses the original one), and so far they seem to be staying faithful to the source material while updating elsewhere (even if my personal opinion on TT-YD is overall kinda mixed)! Let's hope that this is a sign of Paper Mario returning to its roots while also adding in elements from the modern titles that DID work! Likewise with maybe M&LRPG, and perhaps even a follow up to Super Mario RPG! Outstanding video once again, Delzethin! 👍 I'd definitely be down with you making more videos discussing video game franchises that fell off the mark with a particular game that caused so much controversy, like MAYBE Sonic The Hedgehog 2006 despite it being reviewed to death! Look forward to the next video! Keep up the good work! 👏
Like the trailer for the Thousand Year Door remake itself, a nuanced look at what didn’t work with modern Paper Mario AND WHAT DID!? Truly a miracle this fanbase deserves.
I love your content entirely because, regardless of topic, you keep things fair in pointing out strengths and weaknesses; give a thoughtful and civil analysis regardless of the subject matter.
And yeah, I am a classic Paper Mario fan. The first two are some favorite games for me, and Super is up there with the first two Paper Mario games in terms of quality, since the gameplay was fun, and story felt perfectly in line with the others. I can see a lot of Sticker Star’s flaws more clearly now, but I just had fun with it on release. And Color Splash, after giving it a chance, was a good step forward. Never played Origami King since it just felt my issues with the series’ direction by that point weren’t ever going to be addressed- namely, the lack of series consistency and the half-hearted RPG mechanics that meant nothing plus the lack of interesting characters- but watching it, I can see the quality is even higher.
Which all of that is to say I can see the positive parts of modern Paper Mario. I’m hopeful the series can move forward doing things closer to the originals while being a bit more experimental like modern titles. I never wanted the series to stay the same as TTYD every release, I just want the series to be consistent moving forward.
I'm not sure how much material there'd be to talk about, but the timeline of Pokemon Mystery Dungeon would be nice to hear about. Maybe after the pokemon presents around next month, regarding the state of the series.
I feel like you kinda downplay how bad the games after sticker star are and how much going all in relying on paper gimmicks drags everything down. Bottom line is these aren’t irrational complaints that boil down to “it’s too different”. They’re just actually bad.
Another note worth mentioning. Prior to Sticker Star, the “Paper” moniker was simply denoting the art style. There was little to no mention or reference to the characters and world being paper or other materials. It was a real world and paper was the medium in which it was presented to the player. Every game beginning with Sticker Star has hyper fixated on the arts and crafts theming, and that is just not relevant to what the first three games were about at all.
Absolutely this. If someone took the Paper out of Paper Mario 64, it'd still work as a fantastic Mario RPG. If you took it out of Thousand Year Door, the Curses might need to be in a slightly different form, but Mario's seen folks able to transform into different objects since Yoshi was hurding him around as a baby, so it'd still be a fantastically written well designed story.
Having the paper shoved down our throats is one of the things I hated most. Even with the good steps Origami King made, compare some of its major bosses ("the Colored Pencil Box, the Stapler, the Scissors, Rubberband, Hole Punch") to folk like the Koopa Bros, Macho Grubba, Mr L. Rawk Hawk, Doopliss, Cortez, Dimentio, Kamek; which ones deserve their own trophies and spirits in Smash?
The Mario RPG Games were well written, breathing tons of life into the Mario world where there was none. Them becoming flat and lifeless was as much, if not more, of a problem than them switching core gameplay around.
THIS!
tbf ttyd has multiple overworld abilities that only make sense when acknowledging that Mario is made of paper
A step forward is NOT enough when Sticker Star took 1000 Steps Back.
very nice summary and explanation of the „downfall“ of the paper mario series. And what a beautiful voice! Well done sir!
Yeah, that's generally what happened with Paper Mario. A sad tale really caused by a questionable developer with a baffling mindset.
Other than that, it would be nice if you make a video dedicated to talk about Dragalia Lost's legacy as a game and to its fans. It's been over a year since end of service happened after all.
never heard of
"Don't fix what's not broken." That's Paper Mario's big problem. It looked so hard to fix a problem, that the series would become too similar to one another, that didn't even exist. Literally look at the first two games and you'll realize there is so much that make 64 and TTYD unique from each other. Eventually, it changed and experimented to the point that it lost itself. Paper Mario became a mask for a jumbled mess of ideas that had little to do with what people actually cared for.
I hope that the Remake opens IS eyes to the fact that they didn't have to throw away all they built with the first two games. A new Paper Mario game still has more than enough potential to be fresh, even if it still uses the old style.
A part of me wonders what TV shows, movies, video games, etc. like Teen Titans Go! and the post-Super Paper Mario games would be like if they were an original IP, rather than being based on an existing one. Like, just replace all the copyrighted characters with new faces and leave everything else the same. Obviously, they'd still be bad, but would the complainers be as vocal about it and would they still find the same success (or lack there of) as their counterparts?
I'm sure they would NOT find sucess. Those are leeching from the popularity of the originals instead of their own merits. Like seriously, the only reason Sticker Star got 2 sequels is because it's Paper Mario, not because of being good and getting a fanbase.
I definitely think you should do a video on the Metroid series, how it fell off with Other M and got revived with Dread, and how Dread took Other M’s ideas and made them work.
Honestly, I think what gamers want is the same gameplay with a some tweaks and new ideas that don't strongly affect gameplay. Not so little that it feels like they only added like 5 things, but enough adjustments to make it feel like the world had evolved. Just like our personal day to day lives, we don't want massive changes all the time because it's overwhelming, we want just enough changes to be interesting, but not too much that is breaks us from our comfort zones. If you want a complete break of comfort zone, you pick up and entirely different game.
The fact that they started paper Mario remakes with TTYD is amazing, but also kind of concerning, what about Super Paper Mario and 64? 64 especially could use more modern adjustments to the gameplay and better visuals, though it would be pretty hard to maintain the charm of those original designs when smoothed out
I'm pretty sure the reason is a lot more simple than that, it's because Paper Mario 64 is on NSO, and so they'd rather remake the Gamecube game because that one can't be made available on NSO
Paper Mario 64 is unironically one of the best looking games Nintendo has made to this day, and I’m saying this as someone who only played it recently for the first time. It doesn’t really need upgraded visuals at all.
@@thatoneguyUknowAgreed.
What kind of bogus research study did Nintendo do that found less than 1% of gamers cared about the story of a Paper Mario game? Everyone I talk to about this series calls Thousand Year Door the best game in the series by a long shot, and they immediately bring up the story and how great it is as one of the biggest reasons. That game's story, atmosphere, and characters are HUGE to why ppl love it
The reason for this. was club nintendo gave points for doing surveys so people would do them but just spam the top option so the top options was probably no we did not like story, I bet if they switched the top and bottom they would've gotten opposite results.
I usually try to avoid videos like this, because I'm honestly fatigued with the overly pessimistic nature of the Paper Mario fandom, even if they have valid reasons to feel the way they do. But I appreciate the more level headed tone and direction you displayed during this discussion, even if still hits a lot of the same beats I'm a bit numb to.
That's how I feel about it. I actually dismissed this video outright because I thought it would just rail on the new games like all the others.
It all went downhill after ttyd. Mario rpg, paper mario and ttyd were awesome
Exactly. Until PMTOK a little bit, but mainly until PMTTYD's remake announcement.
l liked this pretty neutral and comprehensive explanation of a noteworthy/"controversial" series of events for certain franchises. idk how much you enjoy doing more historical research rather than gameplay research (as with your smash videos), but l'm sure there are a lot of other topics out their that would fit in this mold. It kinda reminds me of how zelda-fans were originally mad at WindWaker for being too childish and disliking SkywardSword for the motion controls, or you could talk about how/why we never get a part three of extremely popular valve-games just to name some of the top of my head
I feel it's difficult to justify the attempts that Color Splash and Origami King made as being "experimental" when, in reality, they ended up so similar to both Sticker Star and eachother that you could easily show someone a screenshot of Color Splash and tell them it's from Origami King, and vice versa.
Sticker Star was an experiment that didn't work, and in that situation, you'd expect them to pack things up and try something else; but despite the claim that they wanted to "keep trying new ideas" with the series, Sticker Star became the new template for future Paper Mario games: no straying from the core, distinguishable (and perhaps marketable, even) facets of the Mario universe, barely any original characters, an emphasis on a papercraft aesthetic and mechanics over actual worldbuilding, no experience points or any sense of meaningful progression for that matter, and a battle system that actively discourages you from encountering enemies.
I found super paper mario a huge step down from thousand year door. It was fun sure, but the removal of the turn based battles was a step in the wrong direction for me so I skipped all the next bad paper Marios.
I did come back for origami king and you know what, it was so weird and the battle system was bizarre but I quite liked it. And ofc the SMRPG and TTYD have been excellent
Star Fox needs this type of video
I want the Mario & Luigi Series to come back so bad :'(
Same :( I miss it a lot.
I really hope that TTYD Remake becomes the best selling Paper Mario game yet. I want it to prove to Nintendo that we never want them to return to the garbage that they made three times in a row. Sure in the trash that is Sticker Star, Color Splash, and Origami King you mind find a gold nugget that accidentally got mixed in, but honestly Nintendo should throw out those ideas and never look bad.
I want the next Paper Mario game to not even be Paper Mario, but Paper Luigi. I want to see the events that took place in Luigi's own adventures that he told you about in TTDY. It would be the most expansive game yet featuring Rougeport along with Waffle Kingdom. It would have the exact same general mechanics but it would except it would expand more on the badge system and perhaps the party members could interact with one and other instead of just Luigi.
Paper green Mario, so Original!
I find it so strange that the dev team says they want to do new ideas and seem to reject elements of the first two games (and sometimes the game design coming off as honestly hostile to fans of those games like the partner bait n switches in OK) yet they doggedly hang onto game elements that never worked in the series refusing to let go of them like coin battle systems and entirely consumable based battle systems. It just seems like they’ve been fixated on getting “their version” to work and resent the old version. I’m hoping the TTYD remake sells well and that causes the team not to be so allergic to it
I agree with this. It seems almost intentional that they’re sticking with the elements that they KNOW fans don’t want instead of reverting back to the original formula and going from there. It’s bizarre.
Is there a source on the "Mario Mandates" being an actual thing rather than just a presumed set of guidelines? I feel like I've seen lots of conflicting claims about that.
Also, I don't know if it's right that fans "didn't mind" the shift in gameplay in SPM. I seem to recall that game being pretty much the black sheep of the series until Sticker Star came along.
I also think you're being a bit dismissive of legitimate criticisms that some people have of Color Splash and Origami King. There's definitely some level of "why isn't it like the old games?!" but there are also people who just... think the games aren't very good. (Note: I enjoyed both games, but I can definitely see why opinions would differ.)
Apologies if this comment comes across as negative; the video is great, I just have more to say about the parts I'm being critical of.
combat is such a hard issue to fix for some reason, even in TTYD I found myself avoiding all the enemies because I didn't wan't to spend my time on a battle for 1 star point... luckily TTYD had a fix for that simply a badge that would one shot anything that didn't give you enough starpoints
I feel likr they're only remaking TTYD because the last 3 formulas didnt work well, and they want their fans back. :/
Correction: last 4 formulas
spm included, and not referring about paper jam that is a m&l game with pm crossover
@@elmanozx what're you going on about? SPM is honestly one of the best games of the series...
Not really.. there's PMTTYD + PM64 at the top, right after then there's PMTOK, and then an abyss of quality separating these 3 from the rest of the PM series including PMCS, PMSS, and SPM.
@@elmanozx Forgot about SPM. Loved that game back then, but I agree, the platforming gameplay didn't work.
Can’t wait to play paper Mario for da first time
How paper mario lost his way?
Well, trying to not be what it was supposed to be, an rpg game with a good story to tell.
Miyamoto: "Look at me, I'm a man who hates new ideas and characters."
Sticker star had like 5 new enemy types. One being Poison Bloopers. The other 4 were the Fiesta guys (Sombrero, Maraca, and Accordion) as well as the mural enemies. I like their designs and honestly would appreciate them returning.
The slurp guys in Color Splash were also fun and zany, especially the deranged one in Indigo Underground.
Also the Shy Bandit.
Origami King has the cutout soldier enemies (the stick figures in Bowser's Castle) and the Paper Mistake Buzzy Beetle boss fight.
To combine the best elements of both
From the old games: everything
From the new games: nothing
I respectfully disagree.
@@almondjoy4938
L
@@espurrseyes42
As if that's supposed to mean anything.
@@almondjoy4938
Not my fault it's true. New PM is trash and nothing good came from it. What OP said stands.
@@espurrseyes42I like how you copy and paste literally any comment you have in peoples opinions
I didn't play Sticker Star but I know it's really bad, I have bought it tho if I ever fall in a strange corner where I want to give it a try
I played and somewhat enjoyed Color Splash, but I didn't want a sequel to it, also the "you need a special item" to even beat the boss is a very bad move
Origami King...yeah I don't think there's another game that made me so angry as that one did, I also didn't care much for Olivia as I found her kinda annoying specially with how the game constantly hold your hand instead of letting us choose "no" and experiment ourself I also didn't like how every boss is just every day objects you can find in your home and the ring system was so frustrating for me to deal with and like Sticker Star, battles are completely pointless, at least Color Splash increases the ink tank if you do enough battles, tho the Coloring your card before making a move takes a little too long time, least the scrolling through so many cards to find the one you want
I loved Super Paper Mario tho, easily my favorite in the series and I love the story, Dimentio, Mimi,
Mr. L ..look awfully familiar don't ya think? *Sarcasm*
anyway would like to see you do a video like this on the Mario and Luigi franshies (hopefully that series will return someday)
now it’s only a matter of whether the next original game in the series is gonna be in the style of the first 2 again, or if the remake is a one and done and they continue in the sticolorgami style
While you’re mostly a Nintendo guy, the Sonic series, ESPECIALLY from 06 is fascinating to talk about. Especially when a lot of the games released after have been decent to great- but all ignored due to the stigma of 2006.
In fact it’s only with the release of Frontiers that 3D sonic is considered good again, and the overall quality of that game is comparable to Forces- but has a VERY different reaction.
Don't let the Sonic fans hear you say that. Saying anything that can be interpreted as even slightly positive about Forces will have them throw the biggest conniption fit ever lol.
@@DSmith3279 I am a Sonic fan tho, a REALLY big one.
I'm saying this because it needs to be said that Frontiers is far closer to Forces than anybody wants to admit, and this is coming from someone who's put in over 100+ hours into both games.
Because game quality is only half the reception. Fan threatment is the other half and one respected the fans, the other did not.
I’d be down for you to talk about the decline & return of Capcom Dev 2’s fighting game team.
I like the idea you can put your paper gimmicks in but keep the RPG and the story elements with partners . That survey done in the SPM was an example of “don’t put all your eggs in one basket“ Nintendo did that and then doubled down by saying “ we must keep characters classic “ and it sunk them further. It’s a relief with the TTYD remake on the horizon we will get a chance to show them what we want
you're missing the point of what the problem here is and why paper mario fans like myself are upset
because paper mario is about mario's story , that's why that is it's original title in japanese , the fact that the game had a story book aesthetic was co-incidental and complementary , but also auxiliary
the modern paper mario's aren't about mario's story anymore , they're about paper jokes and gimmicks
best or most innovative gameplay be danmed , that's not what we want from paper mario
To answer your question at the end of the video, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the State of the Donkey Kong series right now.
Color Splash, while not having the same creative story older paper Mario games have, is still a very enjoyable game, sure it might not have the best gameplay ever but it’s the little moments that matter, the game was very atmospheric and the little toads and bits of dialogue characters had really brought the game to life, because the funny moments that Color Splash had and the puzzles with the improved “Things” system with a hint toad made it way better than Sticker Star
I admittedly didn't play Origami King, but I watched some let's plays of it, and I think the issue I personally have with it is that it... kind of just gets further and further from classic turn-based RPG battle mechanics? 'Battles' in Origami King seem more like a collection of puzzles for you to solve with whole 'rotate a wheel to line up enemies' thing. I don't HATE puzzle games or anything, but as someone who got into the series because it was a fun turn-based RPG, it just feels like they're ignoring the wants of the classic fanbase and trying to cater to a completely different audience now. Also, they are dabbling a tiny bit with interesting character writing again, but they're still staying away from the unique character designs that made the first three Paper Mario games memorable and adhering to the weird restrictive design rules.
I personally think that the next game series you should cover is one that started on the Wii and DS in 2007, then tapered off in 2010, then managed to get references in a PC game that first release in 2014 and is still going to this day, but sadly has never been revisited. I am, of course talking about the MySims series, a spin-off of a spin-off created by EA.
Nah, Sticker Stars ideas were bad from the start. Overly focus on paper theming/dialogue, bad/uninteresting worlds and characters, awful battle system etc, lack of running gags from previous games etc. It wasn't something like Sonic 06 where the level design and general ideas were great they just didn't get fleshed out. Sticker Star the ideas were bad from the start. It's just an objectively bad game down to its core. Also while I liked it from the start MANY long time fans were not fond of the gameplay changes in Super Paper Mario. The idea that everyone was fine with it is wrong. By the point after Super it was time for a return to form which is what many fans wanted. But, the devs didn't know what they were doing/didn't understand the point of a sequel so they chose to keep changing things but do it worse each time.
Color Splash's writing is also not good. It's trying way too hard to be funny rather than having any restraint like the old games and it shoves paper jokes in your face again like Sticker Star.
In short, Sticker Star is the Other M of Paper Mario, except with much worse developing story, a functional beta that got shut down by Miyamoto due to saying it was too similar to TTYD.
Now that I think about it, I remember seeing a lot of two games in particular being sold resold for cheap in stores: OTHER M AND SUPER PAPER MARIO. I had to asume it's because of poor initial reception.
All I want to say here is that Nintendo releasing a remake is not a come to Jesus moment in of itself. It doesn't impact anything until Nintendo actually makes and releases a NEW Mario RPG. I already have Mario RPG Remake and love it. And I am 75% sure that I will love TTYD Remake the same way but TTYD could be improved upon. A LOT. And THAT is what I want to see.
8:40 being different is an inherent flaw though
I will say that Origami King is an interesting game because while Sticker Star and Color Splash could be described as unsuccessful attempts at a genre I like, OK is a successful attempt at a genre that I'm just not interested in. The latter does succeed in a solid story, good visuals, and boss battles that are enjoyable. However, the core battles are so fundamentally uninteresting and feel like such a relic of a kind of game that Paper Mario doesn't even seem to want to be anymore that it renders the final experience just uneven and not terribly satisfying.
Especially compared to something like Bug Fables which fully embraces its platformer/RPG hybrid roots and gets further depth out of it? Origami King can't help but feel like it includes things like ring fights out of a misplaced notion that Paper Mario games need regular battles without understanding the gameplay context that needs to exist around it.
Of course Brothership was announced AFTER this video.
I think the main thing for me is...I don't mind Paper Mario being experimental, but it should alternate.
I thought Suoer was fine for the reasons you mentioned, but after that I wanted Paper Mario 3. Instead we get another experiment, but this one is terrible. If you swao between traditional - experiment - traditional - experiment, people would be less annoyed.
And removing all of the personality would just be a nonstarter anyway
If they’re going to experiment, make it a spin-off. Don’t mess with the original series. It feels disloyal otherwise and causes resentment, as is evidenced by years and years of angry people.
The fun thing is, there actually exists an indie franchise that has as its main premise that the gameplay differs, but the artstyle and aesthetic stays consistent.
This franchise is called SteamWorld and is about Steambots in a Wild West/Space Western setting. And it absolutely nails that aesthetic with charming characters, consistent worldbuilding (steambots only die when they cannot be reassambled after getting scrapped for example) and a great balance between both serious and comedic tones.
Its entries so far included a Tower Defense Game (sadly only on the DSi service, so currently unavailable), two digging platformers in Steam World Dig 1 & 2, a side-scrolling turn-based strategy game in Steam World Heist, a deck-building RPG in Steam World Quest (that handwaves its fantasy setting as a father reading his son a bedtime story) and Steam World Build, a city-builder game a la Anno Domini with a mix of Dungeon Keeper. The next game in the series is called Steam World Headhunter and is supposed to be a co-op third person action adventure with, if the trailer is to be believed, a focus on wild west shootouts and an emphasis on headshots, since bots apparently can detach their head from their body and attach it to another.
I can highly recommend the franchise. The gameplay for each entry is simple but solid and most games are relatively short, so they don`t overstay their welcome.
Headhunter's been put on hold and might never release
@@PikaPhantomVGOk, thanks for the info.
Please, can you talk about the Mario & Luigi Games
oh and maybe sonic a little
As someone who grew up loving Super Paper Mario, people definitely DID mind the change in gameplay. It used to cause so many arguments online it was insane. I think the fans of the game have just grew up enough to be able to have their opinions out there it makes it seem like the resentment wasn't there
But seriously, who the hell did they have at club Nintendo back then. "Not interested in the story of Super Paper Mario", like WHAT?!
I'm not 100% certain of this (as I was never a member of Club Nintendo myself), but apparently it was very common for people to rapid-fire through multiple surveys to farm reward points, without actually bothering to read the questions properly. Presumably "I didn't care for Super Paper Mario's story" was the first option in the list, resulting in the survey showing that over 99% of Super Paper Mario's players supposedly did not care about the plot.
What is baffling, however, is that Nintendo took those survey results at face value. You almost NEVER see such unanimous opinions on literally anything. An opinion poll with a result that one-sided is a surefire sign that the survey itself was either biased or flawed in someway. That's a concept know as "The Paradox of Unanimity", and is incredibly basic statistics analysis 101. The fact that no-one in a multi-billion dollar corporation's marketing department realized this is insane.
@@zeddessell Well damn. So laziness is what will prevent us from ever getting a super paper Mario remake. Great.
There's several other issues with "the alleged surveys" as well.
Like, we have no idea what time frame they pulled those "results" from, when they made those decisions.
Was it only from, say, the 1st 6 months? A Year? Or up to just before they started Development on SS?
That alone has a huge affect on what/how much info they were able to gather about it at the time.
'cause here's the thing... NA and Japan got SPM in April 2007, while Europe/Australia got it in September 2007.
Yet the "Club Nintendo" that many of us likely think of, _didn't exist_ in NA until effectively 2009.
The 1st ~6 months could _only_ be covered by Japan. Push that up to the 1st year and EU/AU could join in for a bit.
But it'd take _almost 2 years_ after the game released before people in NA would start sending them surveys.
SS development supposedly started around "the end of 2009" so that gave people in NA
less than a year to provide feedback (and less than 3 years for everyone, in an overall sense).
By which point Nintendo may have stopped looking at them altogether and they wouldn't matter anyway.
That's a pretty big chunk of time for nearly 80% of fans to not have sent Nintendo their thoughts in that survey back then.
Next, out of the ~2.2 million people that bought the game early on, how many even knew about CN, let alone used it?
Let's say only ~10% of them actually did, that would mean out of 220,000 surveys _less than 2,200_ claimed "the story was interesting".
Does that seem plausible, at all, to anyone here? 🤔
@@King_Luigi I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that Club Nintendo survey only included responses exclusively from Japanese players. Nintendo HQ has always had this weird habit of not caring about the rest of the world, despite NA and Europe being a much larger market for them than their home turf.
I assume TTYD is an indication of this but I do think the modern trio are going to be looked at more fondly after some time knowing the series isnt stuck like that. 3D World had a lot of similar criticsm until Odyssey was announced, and my hope is this will be the perception on the recent Paper Marios, especially Color Splash, I actually adore that game.
Can you please make a Remake It! Video of Bowser?
Gotta love how there are more "WOW WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT MARIO IS MADE OF DEAD TREES HOLY MOLY!!!!" Paper marios than actual paper mario games
See like I played Bowser's Inside Story it was probably the last great Mario and Luigi game that came out that being said I would agree that the game was probably the last good Paper Mario game that actually came out with an overall rating that would be above the bare minimum of five and being a rating of 5 out of 10 would include the story as well when arguably the story is the best part of the Mario games for the RPG series at least from Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door ranking it would arguably be the characters the storyline and then the battle system with exploration being tied with the battle system
Thank you for bringing up the preemptive negative reactions to Color Splash & Origami King.
People didn't have a problem with shaking up the formula with Super Paper Mario, when Mario & Luigi was still at its peak, and while yes, Sticker Star bad, Origami King and even Color Splash are at least decent games when considered as their own thing.
I *personally* think that the RPG games should follow up on Super Mario RPG or even a revived Mario & Luigi series while letting modern Paper Mario evolve into its own identity. I acknowledge that the story book aesthetic adds to the older games a decent bit, but i feel like the modern games use the paper craft style to a bigger extent, to a point where the 'story focused' games arguably don't need the paper style anymore (see M&L and RPG).
At the very least I really hope that modern Paper Mario doesn't end with Origami King, as that game is a personal favorite of mine...
Funny how SPM is more of a paper mario than SS, SPM does so many things right and its only flaw is that isn't TTYD.
I maintain that the situation with modern Paper Mario is in many ways a microcosm of what has happened with much of Western entertainment (especially Hollywood) over the last decade.
Origami king is a genuinely good game, while character designs are just ennemies or toad and stuff, characters and story are really interesting. It also has interesting locations, like shogunland ! I feel like people should recognize it more.
combat was still pointless, no thanks
each fights was interesting, and while the classic paper mario games were better, it was definitely a fun fighting system. You do you.@@masonasaro2118
The reason that I was so annoyed with sticker star, even as a 12 year old playing it on launch day, was not the battles or gameplay, but the personality and charm that the games had was completely gone. The fact that it was treated as “an rpg, but Mario”, and had a structure similar to a dragon quest game, and was played totally straight was amazing. Paper being a thing that we, “a force outside their world” know as paper it they know as everyday life was cool. It was an artstyle with a few visual gags, not an ongoing joke everyone was in on in the world. In sticker star, it removed the most important part of an rpg: the world you inhabit. Generic NPCs, the same enemies, and tired locales, a single town, a world that didn’t feel lived in, and no characters you can get attached to made this game a slog. It wasn’t just the gameplay that made people love the old ones (including spm), it was the exploration of the world with fun characters and great self contained stories. It’s the reason why PM fans’ reaction to origami king was, pun not intended, OK. The gameplay wasn’t amazing but it was serviceable and the story felt more in line with what we wanted, though not all the way there.
It has nothing to do with “it’s not like the old ones”, it had to do moreso with “they removed the reason we’re here”. There’s a subtle distinction that it seems like many who criticize PM fans totally and utterly miss, which makes us more frustrated because we feel we’re not being heard.
I still wonder how people still defend sticker star. Like the backtracking is so bad that its more of a joke than actually good. What is their defense other than egnima mansion or jokes?
Paper Mario has never lost its way. Trying something new and experimenting is not losing your way, it's just what it sounds like. Trying new things. The Mario franchise as a whole is known for branching out and constantly trying their hands at new settings and concepts, mechanics, etc. Like the second a remake of TTYD is announced you claim that NOW Paper Mario has found his way. Why should Paper Mario be restricted to only being RPGs? Or having as many characters as another game or a new villain every game or some big story? It shouldn't be and isn't. Sticker Star is a good fun game, while I do think it's the worst game in the series, it is still a very fun and good game. Color Splash just improved on a bunch of things in Sticker Star and Origami King is easily the best of the three.
Series are allowed to try new things and go in different directions, you may not be the biggest fan of them but that doesn't make the series "lose its way." Nothing went wrong with Paper Mario outside of Intelligent System's IP team keeping more strict rules over the modern games which was never Miyamoto's fault btw for all those who love to blame him for everything. He was responsible for the changes to Sticker Star, but Color Splash and Origami King he had nothing to do with. He didn't even force them to do anything with Sticker Star, he just gave suggestions and asked them. The modern games have brought plenty of new interesting mechanics to the table for this series just as TTYD and Super Paper Mario did before them. Paper Mario hasn't lost its way, its branches out and tried new things from what was the norm. Stop acting like there was something "wrong" with the series for doing this.
They been doing those sorts of games longer than the rpg ones and these ppl are acting like the announcement of a remake is the devs bending the knee to them lol
Paper Mario fans are delusional
Personally, I didn't have that big of a problem with Paper Mario: Sticker Star. I actually like the sticker mechanic, and not just because I collect stickers myself. I haven't gotten that far into Color Splash, so I can't really give my full thoughts on it yet.
Also, do you think you can talk about Cartoon Network: Punch Time Explosion? I would really love to hear your thoughts on it.
Why?
I agree. Hopefully Paper Mario is the good.
I played sticker star when I was little. I didn’t even know how much better the previous games were cus I didn’t know they existed but I still had a terrible time because I kept getting stuck…
the newer paper marios (besides super paper mario) all have useless filler mechanics nobody asked for. Filling colors for actions, Picking up paper to fill in blank spots, picking up "stickers" that were once badges to the point where you start skipping them. Then removed what made the game so fun (Leveling only BP).
With how horribly paoer mario has been handled, im still cautiously optimistic about ttyd, im still exoecting a major fuck up like making enemies super guardable with 30 frames instead of 3 or fucking up the music, cutting content, or idk. Im still pretty excited but last 10 years gave me PTSD
Super Paper Mario was where it fell off for me, It wasn't memorable or the same level of fun as thousand year door. I would like more Paper Mario in the classic art style, with more memorable side characters, it would be really neat to get a paper Luigi game that uses the same mechanics as thousand year door but tells a new story in a new region. Or With Peach really being pushed to have her own development make it so we recruit more fun classic characters, Luigi, peach, daisy, DK , Rosalina and make them feel integral to the story
Still no trailer or news since September though.
And it's about to be February.
How about Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, that series is very and I mean VERY underrated!
paper mario 10,000 year door sequel soon? Shadow KIng?
I remember when Super Paper Mario came out. It was way too easy for me, even as a kid. Everyone in my online communities were really disappointed at the lack of the role partners played and that it wasn't an rpg. I feel like you're painting a picture that "that" was fine, when really it wasn't. Sure a sequel would have been better than sticker star, but we wanted an rpg. I remember when that quote about it being to close to ttyd, that actually killed the heart of that online community. It seemed clear they didn't have interest in making an rpg.
We fans better buy this game immediately and show Nintendo we prefer these types of Paper mario games over the modern ones.
You sure about that? Since it's getting the "woke" treatment to deal with "problematic things in the original release."
Cat-calling, in a Mario game?! Not on their watch!
@@WhiplashPuppet I honestly couldn’t care about that, I only care about gameplay
Edit: But yah censoring cat calling is a bit much, this is why people are getting more sensitive year after year.
I reject your assertion that the games immediately after Sticker Star were only received poorly bc the well was poisoned. Prove it. People know what they want from a Paper Mario game. It's not gimmicks, cards, wacky new combat mechanics, or anything like that. Thousand Year Door was an absolutely perfect game. People want new takes on that formula; fresh stories and increased polish in that vein. You can blame the fans all you want for the poor reception of Oragami King and Color Splash, but if Nintendo was giving ppl a product they wanted, it would have done just fine. Weird damage control on your part and apologizing for bad games. Just call a spade a spade; those games aren't what people want. Should we blame the fans for how badly Suicide Squad is doing? "Oh they are just clinging to their memories of Arkham and can't embrace something new." Just because people don't like or want a product doesn't mean it's their "fault" when a product is received poorly. Keep apologizing for Nintendo's mistakes though and let's see if things improve that way
I'm glad they didn't apply the white outline from recent entries. Pmttyd is one of my all time fave games and I can only hope that it sells well.
Origami King is a genuinely phenomenal game, and financially it did well. I will happily buy the next Paper Mario that's inspired by Origami King.
I never played Color Splash because I never got a WiiU. I'm willing to give it a try if they ever rerelease it on the Switch.
My thing is. if you wanna try something new with Mario, thats fine. but this goes for any series. If you create a spin off, and then change its identity 3 games in then that's a problem. The new paper mario games were fine as games, but not paper mario games. It would be like going to your favorite burger restaurant and ordering the usual, only to find out that they just added different, random ingredients to it and told you they weren't going back despite it being a favorite item. Sure, new people will love it, but that doesn't discount the frustration to those that already loved and supported it.. Why not make a new menu item instead? Why fracture your fanbase and create a situation in which you lose money because you decided to experiment with a item that has already been cemented into the minds and tastebuds of many? None of the new elements of that product were identical to the previous except for the fact that it's shaped like a burger. It's the same for Paper Mario
I'm not saying it's wrong to experiment with your games but I think I'm saying an expectation to do that should be established at the start. To reuse the menu analogy, this reason is why there is a "Burger of the day" or a "Chef's Choice" menu option for people that do like to experiment. It's honestly really hard to believe that Sticker Star and Color Splash actually were experimenting, when it stuck to such old formulas and made it incredibly "safe". In my eyes, Origami King was the only one that actually experimented which is why I love/respect it the most out of the newer 3. I still have my reservations with it, but I will at least try to recognize the effort.
Both Sonic and Pokémon would too be good franchises to talk about
Specifically Sonic post-Shadow The Hedgehog at earliest and Pokémon post-XY at earliest
The gameplay has never been the reason I love Paper Mario- Sure, I feel the gameplay of the first two are the best by far (aside from Oragami, I cannot judge it as I haven't played it), but that's not really the biggest reason I enjoy Paper Mario. There's a reason Super Paper Mario is my favorite in the series despite its gameplay being, pretty lackluster in my opinion, honestly.
I think what really drives people nuts about paper mario is that it changed literally everything, when every good series will at the bare minimum maintain the core of what makes each entry fun. Mario will always be a platformer, whether its linear or sandbox, 2d or 3d, cappy or fludd. Paper mario is just a paper game, that's the only thing that stayed consistent between all 6 entries