Paper Mario Month continues! A few things to note. This is NOT a critique of TTYD, I love that game to death. It's just a fun discussion of how 64 does many things better. Also, regarding the battle mechanics point...of course I prefer TTYD's. Allies being able to use items and switch party placement is amazing. My point was more about badge stacking specifically, and that 64 is tougher in many ways due to the stricter limitations.
I'm iffy on that it's a double edge sword. I kind of didn't like having my partners having their own HP. It was something more I had to worry about and take care of especially when it only matters when Mario goes to zero and not the others so of course Marios gonna be the priority. So I kind of rather had kept it that way instead
64 is a cozy, ttyd is crazy. Gameplay aside, the vibe or the two games is completely different but they complement eachother perfectly. 64 feels like a very homey story with familiar characters and relatively safe settings. This makes the weirdness of ttyd stand out more and make it feel more adventurous.
Yeah I agree! I love both in different ways. These are just reasons I like the first game more, but towards the end of the video I mention ways TTYD is much better too.
PM64 is the perfect "Hero's Journey" arc for what I feel should be the "canonical" normal Mario-saving-Peach-in-Mushroom-Kingdom story among all Mario games. TTYD is a perfect sequel to that "main" story.
This, the 2 games honestly make a perfect dichotomy with each other. TTYD is pretty much the "dark twin" of 64, it completely flips the tone upside down and even has a completely new visual style to go with it, it feels like 2 completely different people with different goals in mind made these games, the whiplash you get from TTYD after playing 64 is amazing. I can almost see why Nintendo couldn't figure out how to make a 3rd entry alongside them for 20 years, 64 and TTYD have this ying-yang relationship that honestly doesn't leave much room for a threequel. No wonder they said "fuck it, let's turn the 2D Bowser sections from the sequel into its own game"
Thousand year door to paper Mario 64 is like Majora’s mask to Ocarina of time. The originals are the adventure you’d expect while the direct sequel has a completely different darker and weirder vibe while still keeping it familiar and linking to the first game.
My favorite aspect of PM64 is its sense of foreshadowing. It’s so interesting that each chapter starts with Bowser anointing the next boss threat you’ll inevitably fight. That combined with the game beginning with losing to bowser makes him feel like a genuine threat. In contrast, Bowser is a team rocket level parody in TTYD
The foreshadowing aspect you mentioned works amazingly with Chapter 3 in PM64. Even Bowser's soldiers actually wonder if Tubba Blubba is stronger than Bowser himself.
What do you mean? The comparison would obviously be to the foreshadowing done with Grodus and the X-Nauts, and the whole thousand year door plot, not to a character that's barely in the story.
There's one other thing I'd like to add that Paper Mario 64 gets better: the chapter Title cards. In 64's chapter titles you see a brief glimpse of Mario facing off against a silhouette of the big bad final boss of the chapter and its a cool little foreshadowing. It makes every chapter title card feel unique and gives it personality. It's way more interesting than just a generic spinning coin that is the exact same for every chapter.
I thought I was some alien liking the original more than its sequel with how much love Thousand Year Door gets. The only big gripe I have with 64 is its opening taking forever to give you your action commands.
Here's one stupid thing I like about Paper Mario 64 that none of the other Mario RPGs have: The boos aren't enemies. They are prankster obstacles. This feels congruous with the mainline games, and it's weird how in the other Mario RPGs, you can just jump on the boos.
The art style of Paper Mario 64 is so unique compared to the newer games. Its presentation is reminiscent of a pop-up storybook, similar to Yoshi's Island. The characters are all 2D sprites, which give the characters a lot of lively expressions. Mario especially has a lot of sprites in contrast to the later games, which gives him a lot of personality. I think it would unfortunately be removed if Nintendo decided to remake the game in a newer engine.
Actually, Smorg and Hooktail are connected the bigger plot. Smorgs are actually an experiment of the X-nauts and Hooktail and her brothers are agents of the Shadow Queen, it’s just dialouge told to you by an npc on the rooftops
I prefer there being disconnected bosses mixed in. Makes things more interesting when there's more than just "one villain and it's minions that are just extensions of main villain"
Was it ever confirmed that the Smorgs are connected to the X-Nauts? I don't recall there being anything in-game that ties them to either the X-Nauts or any of the game's major antagonists.
Wait how you'd know that about the smorgs? I know the story about the hooktail,bonetail,gloomtail being her pets but nothing about the smorgs. Is there any in game info on that?
It never outright says it but it’s heavily implied. When Doopliss gets off the train he says something like “I’ll leave it up to Beldam now,” leading one to believe that Beldam went to the switch in riverside, flipped it, and covered it with smorgs.
I played PM64 for the first time when I was only about 9 or 10 years old. The way Bowser lifted Peach's castle up into the sky, before thoroughly ousting Mario felt like such a statement from him. Dealing your entire HP worth of damage in one shot, after casting invincibility on himself, was a great demonstration to the immense gap between the player and Bowser's strength at the time, and just how much work you had to look forward to doing before you could challenge him again. Bowser wasn't just kidnapping the princess anymore, he was showing the whole Mushroom Kingdom that he was essentially their new ruler. Going back there after so many hours, and meeting him at the same broken window that Bowser crashed through the first time (and sent Mario flying out of) was also incredible. For a game that essentially relies on the old formula, they did a great job of fleshing it out and breathing so much life into it. I think there's a real reason so many people fell in love with the franchise after that.
I know, they make the same joke about him being one step behind like 7 times and it’s not really ever funny, it’s honestly disrespectful to the character
@@robertlauncher ya his gameplay could’ve at least been interesting or challenging but it’s just basic uninteresting platforming. His ability to breath fire while you walk around the areas the few times you get to also isn’t used for anything
7:14 this is because Paper Mario 64 uses sequences for its themes due to it being on the N64, while TTYD uses streamed music because of the bigger disc size now being able to support bigger audio
I think an HD, widescreen remaster would be perfect for this game. PM64's art style deserves to be fully preserved, which I fear a remake might replace (to make it closer align the rest of the series). +I definitely understand most of these points, particularly with level design, world design and movement. I think the overlapping story is also better executed, since you get to know Bowser better than you get to know Grodus. 6:47 By the way, since you like the Paper Mario 64 soundtrack, you should check out "New! Paper Mario" by Adel Almas, which has most of the OST remastered, but with a more updated synth and crispier percussion (relatively faithful to the original game, just better quality). I think Gusty Gulch is the best one of these (being extra Spanish Flamenco).
I'm still bummed that PM64 got skipped over for Switch remakes. TTYD is a phenomenal game, but PM64 is my ultimate warm blanket kind of cozy adventure. It would benefit from a graphical and mechanical update more than TTYD, and then maybe we could make Flower Fields be actually fun.
For real, they've now remade every single acclaimed Mario RPG *except* the original Paper Mario, ironically the game that did the best at bringing Mario's world to the RPG format. TTYD looks great already and the gamecube version still holds up to this day, while PM64's graphics did not age nearly as well and could definitely use the HD upgrade way more
@@VonFirflirchYeah, I think if they decide to take the TTYD art style, they could at least give a option to use the original art style. I would like to play in both
64 is my favorite as well, and always get disappointed when people put it down to prop up TTYD (which TTYD really doesn't need, it's great on its own). You voiced pretty much every reason I prefer 64, but something I'd like to add on top of point 3 is that I think 64 has better sound design. The sound effects in 64 just have so much more punch! I can barely hear hit sounds in TTYD, for example. They get lost in the mix
What Paper Mario 64 has is more movement stuff, like the Spin Dash. I WISH and that's capital WISH that this was in TTYD, I hate how slow and unsatisfying walking is in that game. This is not even talking about how broken and duct-taped Pape 64 is
IMO PM64 is a much more consistently enjoyable experience compared to TTYD. TTYD certainly has its high points where I thought it was way better than PM64, but it also has its low points that genuinely frustrated me to no end (to the point where on my first playthrough I genuinely wanted to quit the game at certain points). I had no such negative experiences with PM64. It doesn't attempt to do anything nearly as crazy as TTYD, but as a result it also doesn't stumble nearly as hard in a lot of places, and every time I fire it up I know I'll be pretty consistently having fun throughout the entire game.
To me the main point in which PM64 is great is how it's a perfect "Hero's Journey" trope done right, specially on how the epilogue is a perfect closure for the arc set up on the prologue. Prologue: you're invited to the castle, excited to meet the princess, meet some interesting folks along the way (from various origins) but know nothing about them yet Bowser interrupts you right when you're about to have a moment alone with Peach (journey, starts, you go through many trials, etc), you finally defeat Bowser Epilogue: there's AGAIN a party at the castle, just like it should have been the 1st time, except now: - this time Bowser doesn't interrupt you anymore - you feel your growth from the journey - all those previously unknown people are now beloved characters you met at their original cities and helped - you're somewhat free to explore the party and enjoy your victory instead of it merely ending after the final battle When you feel the comparison, it's really satisfying specially on the 1st blind playthrough. TTYD has a bit of this too, but I was still more satisfied with PM64's ending I feel. To me, PM64 is the canonical normal "Mario saves Peach" story.
I honestly found the peach and bowser segments in TTYD so boring and a slog to get through. I just did not care about TEC, he felt underdeveloped and a bit of a plot device rather than an actual character. And the Bowser segments could be cut from the story and nothing would really change. In comparison, I found 64's peach and bowser segments a lot more interesting and engaging, and found them more interesting and better characters.
Another thing 64 does better than TTYD and I've noticed after watching those bestiary vids but 64 has MUCH better enemy variety. In TTYD starting with Chapter 6 most of the "new" enemies you'll fight are stronger variations of older enemies. Ch 6 doesn't have a single original enemy. Ch 7 only has one with X-Naut PHD and Ch 8 only has one with Wizzerd. Everything else is a variant. In 64 while starting in Ch 3 they start using variants every chapter introduces at least 2-7 original enemies. I mean Ch 4 had 7 different Shy Guy enemies just for that chapter. Ch 5 has 7. Ch 6 has 4. Ch 7 has 2 and Ch 8 has 4. It also sucks that TTYD Pit of 100 trials hardest enemies are also just variants. 64 definitely does better in keeping on your toes.
This made me curious so I looked at both games' bestiaries and the they're actually surprisingly close when it comes to the amount of unique, non-boss enemies. The original paper mario barely edges it out because of the many shy guy variants, but still, the line between unique enemy and variant is subjective (I didn't count X-Naut phd as a unique enemy for example). The bigger problem with ttyd is the sheer amount of enemies you see during chapter 3. After finishing the chapter you've seen the majority of unique designs and most of the new enemies going forward are going to be recolors. That being said, ttyd has a larger amount of enemies overall, so proportionally, recolors are more prevalent, a few extra unique designs certainly wouldn't hurt, especially in the pit.
Thank you!! I said the same thing about a PM64 remake when TTYD got announced on Switch and my friends basically told me to stop fan-girling for 64 because TTYD was a "superior game". 😒
@Zihark_ Everyone has their opinion but TTYD doesn't have the charm that PM64 has. I will die on that hill haha I think the story and the levels were better in PM64 but the partners were better in TTYD.
@jaimeiswithnintendoswitch3766 That's true and in my first playthrough on gamecube I didn't even know you could get Ms. Mowz so I only had 6 partners lol I assume it was too much of a hassle to do the trouble center tasks and I said screw it haha
I agree with most of these, but the TYD ost is one of the best soundtracks in any game ever. Also the crystal star locations are all connected to the shadow queen as told by the merchant on the rouge port rooftops
I just finsh tyd remake for the first time and I enjoy it. There few sound tracks that I like, but still think paper mario 64 has the better ots. Also there so much back tracking in tyd and my friend told me it was worse in the original game.
@@alexvergara479but did you listen to the new ost or old? Cause I agree the new ost for the remake isnt as good as the original paper Mario soundtrack l, but the original TTYD soundtrack is better than the original paper Mario soundtrack. Can't argue with the backtracking complaint tho
1. Goombario in Goomba Village at Prologue 2. Kooper in Koopa Village and Bombette in Koopa Bros Fortress at Chapter 1 3. Parakarry in Mt. Rugged at Chapter 2 4. Lady Bow in Boo Mansion near Gusty Gulch at Chapter 3 5. Watt in Shy Guy's Toy Box after defeating the Big Lantern Ghost at Chapter 4 6. Sushie in Yoshi's Village at Lavalava Island at Chapter 5 7. Lakilester in Flower Fields at Chapter 6
For the bit about bosses being disconnected from the main story or final boss, I disagree. I thought it was interesting that these ancient artifacts known as Crystal Stars essentially got lost to time, and were either forgotten in some ancient steeple or giant, mystical tree, or ended up being used to siphon off people's power and rig tournaments in an arena in the sky, or as part of a ghostly pirate king's treasure haul. What I wish we would have gotten was some sort of elaboration on the history of these settings and their connections to the crystal stars. Meaning, *why* was a steeple constructed on the outskirts of a strange part of the world that's locked in twilight, and the moon looks bigger than it is? And why was there a museum/shrine dedicated to the stars which hid the crystal star in Poshley Heights? There's so much potential lore and significance to some of the eclectic locales from TTYD that never get elaborated on much, which leaves something to the imagination but I wish they'd done more to explain how these stars got scattered. That was probably their intention though.
1. Koopa Bros in Koopa Bros Fortress at Chapter 1 2. Tutankoopa in Dry Dry Ruins at Chapter 2 3. Tubba Blubba in Gusty Gulch at Chapter 3 4. General Guy in Shy Guy's Toy Box at Chapter 4 5. Lava Piranha in Mt. Lavalava at Chapter 5 6. Huff N. Puff in Flower Fields at Chapter 6 7. Crystal King in Crystal Palace at Chapter 7 8. Bowser in Bowser's Castle/Peach's Castle at Chapter 8
Fellow PM64 enthusiast here. While I wouldn’t call it better than TTYD, their quality is pretty neck and neck. 64 has the better level design but TTYD has the better combat to me.
Hooktail was one of shadow Queen's pets and it's possible they used him to hide the crystal star so while it's not directly related hooktail does have some revelance to the plot but yeah everyone else not so much they're kind of just...there. lol
The super majority of the audience interactions in TTYD are negative for Mario, and only get more intensely worse with each seating upgrade, where as we see no rise in the good interaction intensity (let alone the flat number of positive occurrence).
Finally, i tottaly agree, here wishing the had done a remake of pm64 instead of ttyd, pm64 would definitely benefit more of a remake, they did ttyd just beacuss of its popularity, but the purpose of a remake should be enhance a game limited for its time, bring the game to light again.
Ttyd did need a remake to tone down backtracking and it was. Chapter 4 backtracking is now 3 trips Instead of 5 and a spring was added to keyhaul key before the cave. Also the warp pipe room added. Ttyd gets everything else right that it makes up for the backtracking especially now with the remake.
Here are my reasons 1. Like the video said, the music in 64 is extremely memorable. I can hum pretty much every chapter boss theme, whereas the only ones that stood out to me in TTYD were Doopliss and Magnus Von Grapple. It has its good tracks, but the original just hits bullseyes nearly every time. 2. The linearity of Thousand Year Door hurts the Chapters in a way that isn’t an issue in the original. It’s not just that the latter half is bogged down by the amount of backtracking, but it’s backtracking to the same maybe two locations across the same halls. It really makes me wonder if the devs used it to pad out the actual content they had. Even at its worst, 64’s backtracking usually feels more like a fetch-quest across the map, where you visit different areas to get your item and then bring it and move on to something new. The train section in Thousand Year Door is ridiculous at times. 3. Thousand Year Door makes it far easier to get badges, to the point it removes some challenge. The badge shop is far more extensive with options, yet you can get a good chunk of them in the underground city anyway, and you also have the returning star piece exchange if that wasn’t generous enough. The remake also showers you with coins, meaning you never have to make a meaningful purchase. Paper Mario 64 has a rotation of three badges in the shop, some you can’t get from the exchange, and they’re expensive enough that they can break your bank if you’re not careful. Unless you cheat the game room, but I don’t count that.
I've been using them since I started my channel in 2017, and I'm not 100% sure where I got them at this point. I usually don't use covers anymore, but I slipped a few into this vid.
As I was watching your video. Reason number 1 and 2 somehow never occurred to me till you pointed it out. Now that I think of it, Paper Mario 64 did have bigger areas which is odd because I really loved the levels and world designs in that game. Dry Dry Desert (including the ruins), Forever Forest (and the castle), LavaLava Island, even the last chapter with the ice level and palace. I could go on. Admittedly, in the past I did prefer the first game’s level designs over Paper Mario TTYD when I first play them when I was younger. I love exploration in games and it just got me thinking that I should replay 64 some time. It’s great to hear that people have voiced their thoughts about the worlds/levels in 64 and TTYD. Before I thought I was a little crazy when I thought 64 had better ones. It’s good to hear people have similar opinions
As someone who has owned TTYD for 20 years and just started playing Paper Mario 64 last week, I gotta say that I am really loving it so far and I’m only on chapter 2. I get easily sidetracked with video games and hop back and forth between games, but I keep coming back to this game. P.S. Have you tried the Paper Mario TTYD 64 mod by elDexter? Looks amazing.
Does it have a creepy AI computer that does not fit the world? Does it have an unnecessary and weird species of alien things that could be removed without really affecting the story or final encounter? Paper Mario 64 is the best game, period. And it does not reslly need a remake. It is already perfect. TTYD is largely unnecessary.. and a new entry would simply be better than the same thing again. If people are so nostalgic about these.. just play the original!
You say they can’t fix the backtracking within the chapters but all they have to do is add a warp pipe between creepy steeple and twilight town unlocked after the first 2 trips and boomed its fixed. So they can fix it but the hallway type design that’s something that cannot be fixed if you even consider that a problem because many don’t as that’s just a core game design.
I grew up with Super Paper Mario, so i didnt get to experience PM64 until much later. Its one of my favorite games in the series, I love SPM and PM64 equally. Still havent gotten around to TTYD yet so im looking fowards to playing it soon
Now that I've played TTYD, with all it's improvements in the remake, I think I gotta give the win to TTYD. But PM64 definitely has it's advantages: The battles have less RNG to worry about, which makes them more predictable but also emphasizes the player's strategic choices. TTYD removed the upgraded badges like Mega Quake in favor of badge stacking, but you miss out on the unique visual effects those upgrades offered, and stacking more than two of the same stack badge is a horrible deal in terms of FP, pushing you to use the even more OP power plus badges instead. It was cool being able to upgrade partners mid chapter instead of having to go back to a specific NPC. It was cool that partners had their own damage mechanic instead of HP. It gave the player even less to focus on, but it added emphasis to the excellent core battle mechanics.
I've beat Mario RPG both the original and remaster, but I'm not a huge fan. PM64 is wayyy better with a more beautiful world, better battle system, and more enjoyable characters for me.
perhaps I will get to play this again, since it is available if you have the switch expansion membership. Thanks for promoting this old gem 👍 Hopefully it gets a remake soon... So many remakes need to be made. haha.
I see why you might like the more open chapters of PM64, but I think the TTYD chapters are very creative and unique. Chapter 2, 3, 4, and 6 are each very different, and don’t follow specific tropes of what Mario games are known for. The only chapter that stands out like this for me in PM64 is chapter 4 and maybe 6.
For me the third chapter of the original might be one of the most creative ones in the whole series. The whole thing of having an invincible boss at first and having to find his heart to beat him is super original. Even the theme is very strange, with it first being a classic creepy forest but turning into this death gulch which is super creative
No. 6 Toad town also has some other pretty neat things, like for example, you can talk to the toad that you give the shy guy's note to translate to and he will give you some hints or just some lore. And there is also the club 64 near the harbor, they didn't really have to put it there, but it's neat. All in all, Toad town just feels more lively, i get that Rogueport was supposed to feel more, how do you say it... poor or gloomy, something completely different from what you're used to, but it could still have had some more details.
I played PM64 as a kid (Beat the game twice I think). Now I'm a young adult, and last year I finally played TTYD, but I quit during the train chapter because I found it too...boring / tedious (I then watched a long play for the rest of the game). Not sure if my play times would be the same or different if I played PM64 as an adult, or TTYD as a kid. There were a few extra points that were factors in me not enjoying TTYD as much: 1. The battle system. I know you did mention it, but I think its the other way around. I don't like *any* of the TTYD battle changes. It feels like there's more quick time events as failed attempt to be challenging, especially for things that shouldn't need them (e.g. Tattle). The crowd is just a huge downgrade for me, I legitimately enjoyed the prologue battle system more because there was no crowd getting noisy every time something happened, or bingo (Which did absolutely nothing but waste time and break flow, 95% of the time), or the "X prompt" in between turns and having to squint and scan the crowd to see WHO is chucking something, but also WHAT it is and if you should even press X or not (This sucks on small screens), or the shy-guys jumping on stage and breaking the flow, and the stage hazards. The set pieces randomly falling on combatants and breaking flow again, and stuff like the mist is just annoying. Who loves it when your attacks and the enemy's attacks miss 90% of the time? The only new battle change I'm undecided on is the party member changes (Now having a HP meter and separate badges). 2. TTYD recycles so much. Both games have a main town with an underground sewer system, and your main goal is to gather the stars and use their power to free Peach and stop the big bad. Chapter 1 starts in a fields area leading to a village with Koopa residents, then you end the chapter by scaling a large tower and defeating the boss. Chapter 5 is on a tropical island and features an explorer you've seen since the early chapters of the game, but he's really a coward. There's a chapter with a haunted mansion and the boss has a special secret that you need to uncover in order to truly beat him. Both games feature Peach getting kidnapped, yet she's basically running all over the place under her captor's nose. Etc. If I played TTYD first, this wouldn't be a problem. The ideas are fine, but PM64 already did it so well, that its hard to look past the recycled elements. 3. The ending felt anti-climatic. So you're telling me that Bedlam suddenly did a 180 and became good, just because the Shadow Queen is now dead? She was waiting for 1000 years. She's loyal and persistent, I don't see her giving up that easily. And now the X-Nauts are good, because Grodus is just a head and totally not a threat. Also, I kind of expected more from Grodus in general. And yeah, Bowser (But especially Kammy Koopa) being a joke the whole game was a let down. Funilly enough, I wasn't prepared for him in the Glitz Pit and he wrecked me. Which was a welcome surprise.
OK, I had a MASSIVE comment that I wanted to leave, but it ended up being so massive that I couldn't actually post the comment. If you'll permit me, I'd like to split my comment up into 3 comments, talking about stuff I agree with, stuff I disagree with, and the subject of a remake for Paper Mario 64. I don't mean for this to come off as spam, I just had a lot to say about this subject, as it turned out. OK, first off, what I agreed with: It's interesting, I've seen at least one person echo similar sentiments to this in the past, in particular emphasizing the level design and less mandatory and more easier backtracking. Also, the loss of the Spin Dash does suck when it comes to The Thousand-Year Door, even with the Yoshi Kid, it'd be nice to have a handy way to go faster without having to switch to a specific partner. I also appreciate that Paper Mario 64's world is more cohesive, in that it's more interconnected, thus feeling like a more complete world; TTYD's major areas are all segmented, basically having you relying on pipes within Rogueport's Sewers to get to most of the major areas in the game, whereas PM64, with the exception of the Shiver Region, everywhere can be accessed by going through Toad Toad. Koopa Village and the Koopa Bros. Fortress, as well as Forever Forest, Boo Mansion, and Gusty Gultch, are even directly connected to Toad Town, and that makes things feel more natural. Also, speaking for myself, but something I found appealing about the original Paper Mario is that it genuinely felt like this was the definitive Mushroom Kingdom, in that a lot of major areas within Mario's world feel accounted for, and unlike Super Mario RPG before it, it doesn't feature too many new areas, characters, and species that we haven't seen before (or sense), lending credence to the idea that this is the same world Mario inhabits in the mainline games. That said, I love the unique spins and personalities it gives to the traditional Mario species we see like Toads, Goombas, Koopa Troopas, etc. It's familiar, but presented in a way mainline Mario games never bother to do, and that's what really appealed to me, back when I first played it as a kid. Incidentally, I can't really speak on "OP Battle Mechanics", there's a lot of new options that came with TTYD that I love compared to the fairly limited Paper Mario 64, but I will say I also wasn't a huge fan of the "Badge Stacking" either, particularly in the case of the Quake Hammer; that was my favorite badge in Paper Mario 64, and I'd much rather have three badges for 3 different attacks, since I might not need a really powerful Quake Hammer attack to deal with some enemies. I don't get that option with TTYD, I just stack badges to get stronger Quake Hammers that cost more FP the stronger they get. Not really sure if one system is better or worse, though. When it comes to Toad Town vs. Rogueport, though, I initially figured this was a subjective thing, but as you pointed out, there IS more to do in Toad Town than Rogueport, what with the Dojo, the Post Office, Mario & Luigi's House, and the Li'l Oink Farm, not to mention it is overall much bigger than Rogueport, which does help it feel more lively in comparison. It honestly makes me wish Rogueport was bigger, just to make it a more fair comparison and have the differences between them be more down to personal tastes in terms of what you want out of a hub area. I didn't fully realize how much TTYD repeats the same or similar bosses until you pointed that out, though, even setting aside fighting the Shadow Sirens and Doopliss twice, there are two Magnus von Grapple fights, two Bowser fights and three dragon boss fights. Granted they're stronger the second or third time you fight them, but still, weird... Also Smorg is a pure WTF boss that literally comes out of nowhere, feels almost pointless in a way, just there to make sure chapter 6 has some kind of boss fight. Similarly, I didn't realize how minimal the original Thousand-Year Door was in terms of character expressions until you pointed it out. I don't know why, I probably should have realized that the moment I saw all the trailers and clips from the remake and saw all those new expressions Mario and the other characters get for certain scenes, but yeah, the original Paper Mario had a LOT of unique sprites for Mario, many of which only get used once or twice, it's actually quite impressive looking back on that. I'm also in agreement Peach and Bowser are also better utilized in the first game; Peach is more proactive in PM64 whereas she's heavily reliant on what TEC wants her to do (not to mention this creepy recurring thing where the game keeps finding excuses for Peach to take off her clothes, which I hope is dialed back in the remake). And as much as I love Bowser's segments in TTYD, he barely contributes to the game's story otherwise. Aside from suddenly crashing in on Grodus near the end of the game, you could cut him out of the game and very little would change. Of course, I'd never dream of removing Bowser from TTYD, his segments are some of the highlights of the whole game, but I've seen people express disappointment that Bowser isn't more involved. Even in games where he's not the main villain and is mostly comic relief, he still manages to be a big player in those games respective stories, often in unexpected ways, which is kind of a shame that TTYD doesn't rise to that level.
@@ihavepissinmybrain It probably could have, but I had already spent a long time organizing my thoughts and what to say, and I didn't want to spend more time editing things down (especially since I'm not very good at that to begin with).
I like ttyd more BUT I agree woth all your points. Refreshing to hear this because a lot of these have popped in my head but no one seems to discuss. Star spirits vs crystal star and the nonlinear layouts are crucial
Second comment, what I ended up respectuflly disagreeing with in this video: While I do think there are some things Paper Mario for the Nintendo 64 objectively does better than The Thousand-Year Door, a lot of things you brought up here feel more subjective and down to personal preference. Music and art style, I don't think there's much to be said about that one, both games are going for different styles particularly in the music department but I don't think that makes one better than the other, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that (in particular, I'd have to disagree on the boss fight themes, I prefer TTYD's boss fights over PM64's, I remember being obsessed with Lord Crump's boss music as a teen in particular). The Star Spirits vs. Crystal Stars thing, though, I feel like it doesn't quite go without saying as you claim. I mean, yeah, the Star Spirits are "characters", but most of them don't really do much and barely get any characterization. Besides, only Eldstar, Skolar, and Misstar do anything outside of being captured and waiting to be rescued, then joining together to help Mario at the very end. At least with Crystal Stars, not only is there no expectation of them being anything more than magical MacGuffins, the game has a bit of fun with what exactly they are, basically being created by the Shadow Queen but not being inherently good or evil in and of themselves. In particular I like how Grubba uses one of them for his own purposes, completely unrelated to the X-Nauts or the Shadow Queen. That's another thing I disagree with, tying all the bosses back to Bowser in PM64, while it does make sense in terms of the game's story, what with all the bosses being given things in exchange for guarding the Star Spirits, it also kind of limits the scope of Mario's world, like all of these bosses just so happen to work for Bowser. And I can see bosses like the Koopa Bros. and General Guy and the Shy Guy Army already being affiliated with Bowser, but I've seen first-time players outright disappointed that Tutankoopa turned out to be Bowser's minion. And that's to say nothing of bosses like the Crystal King who are wholly unique and new bosses whose association with Bowser is unclear aside from agreeing to guard the Star Spirit. By contrast, I love that not all the bosses are connected to the X-Nauts or the Shadow Queen, because really, why the Crystal Stars are where they are by the time Mario got his hands on the magic map have a number of different reasons behind them, whether they were specifically placed there a thousand years ago, or someone found them and took them for themselves. It makes the world Mario lives in feel that much more bigger and lived in, knowing that not everything is completely connected (though I will say, Hooktail IS connected to the Shadow Queen, in that she was one of her pets along with Gloomtail and Bonetail, just so you know). Admittedly it doesn't feel as "personal" as taking on Bowser's army in PM64, but then again, Mario always takes on Bowser's army, and while I like this take on the traditional "Mario fights Bowser" formula, what makes TTYD appealing, to me at least, is that it goes outside the norm for Mario, it takes Mario out of the Mushroom Kingdom and has him explore an unfamiliar land, meeting strange and unique characters, and do things you normally wouldn't expect out of a Mario game. This kind of ties in to the "charm" and "vibe" talk you briefly brought up but didn't go that much into, but the first Paper Mario and TTYD have very different vibes going for them: Paper Mario 64 is a very charming game, it's familiar and basically expands on stuff we all know from Mario's world, plus the story of restoring the power to grant wishes (admittedly borrowed from Super Mario RPG) has a very storybook feel to it that makes the whole experience feel very cozy. It really helps to emphasis this game's Japanese title, "Mario Story", because this really does feel like the story of how Mario took on Bowser and defeated him, something we've seen him do many times before, but here is where the emphasis the story behind it. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, by contrast, has a different kind of "charm". Yes, the pop-up book look is all very well done, but if there's one thing that stuck with me about this game over the years, it's not the paper aesthetic or any of that, it's just how... different the story, setting, and characters were compared to normal Mario games. Ancient legends, seedy locations, strange characters (and strange character designs), scandalous and dark moments, there are so many things in this game, looking back on it, that make me shocked that they ever got away with, ESPECIALLY given how much Nintendo sanitized and homogenized Mario over the years. I'm not even trying saying that all Mario games, RPG or otherwise, need to be like TTYD, just that variety and taking risks is important, and spin-off titles are a good way to do do something with an established proper that you otherwise wouldn't get to do. This is why the remake (and Super Mario RPG's remake) feels so important to me, it signals, to me at least, that Nintendo is willing to take Mario to weird and unique places again with his spin-offs. So even if there are things in TTYD that I don't like, and even if it has a lot of flaws that I've come to notice over the years, I still respect the heck out of this game for daring to go to some unexpected and strange places, and that is the biggest factor for why it's one of my favorite games of all time, as well as being one of the two biggest contributing factors for why I prefer it over the original Paper Mario (the other being the expanded gameplay mechanics, in case you were wondering).
You summarized a lot of good counter arguments to the video in a nice way. I personally resonate more with the original Paper Mario but a lot of that comes from my love and nostalgia for the game. I personally love that each game goes for different things in story and vibe. If I want cozy I play the original, if I want something wacky and weird I play TTYD and Super. I’m just stoked that TTYD is getting recognition in a remake that brings hope for more games in that style after two decades of changing the series’s direction.
TTYD has incredible storytelling and some improved battle mechanics, but at the end of the day, I enjoy coming back to PM64 so much more. The spin-dashing and dialogue skipping make replays a breeze, and the level design is so much better. The prologue of PM64 can be a little slow, but it doesn't impede my enjoyment, and I don't dread any of the chapters. With TTYD replays, however, I always dread the backtracking of the later chapters. I especially hate the part between chapters five and six where you have to go back to Keelhaul Key and watch Frankie tell Francesca that he loves her ONE HUNDRED TIMES with no option to skip or fast forward the dialogue. On the first playthrough, it's kind of funny, but on replays, it's just annoying. Will I still replay TTYD a billion more times? Sure. But I just have so much more fun replaying PM64.
I played Paper Mario 64 after TTYD, one of the thing that impressed me the most is how many ideas were created by 64, for example it has not one but multiple duplighosts and the whole idea is from 64. So TTYD had a good base to work with, even if I prefere way more TTYD, 64 definitly have the ideas creation going for it
Fellow Jo here who thought no one else felt the same about PM64. My biggest thing as to why I say I like PM64 over TTYD is that 64 feels like a Mario RPG, where TTYD feels like any RPG. That is partially the point of TTYD that Mario isn't the well-known hero like in the Mushroom Kingdom, but because of it, there is almost a weird disconnect. And with it being on the GameCube, they were really trying to show just how powerful the system was at the time, that they overdesigned a bit to show it off. I think for the stories they were telling, it works, but even other Mario games of its time stayed more on the simple side comparatively. Your point on the music though, is spot on with me. It's got such a charm that I can listen to so many of the songs out of context. I really only go for like Glitzpits, Rawk Hawk, and Cortez's battle music with TTYD. I love both games to death. They are crucial parts of my youth and games me and my siblings would even play together. But I wouldn't have my love for video games without PM64.
There is badge stacking available in PM64. Maybe not t the same degree. But it’s there. The higher cap for the stats in TTYD just gives more versatility. If you don’t like stacking, don’t. No one is forcing you.
You say that TTYD has very linear hallways but I just played PM64 like last week and I was surprised at how Linear it was. Chapter 2 is basically you moving right until you reach the outpost, meeting Mousetafa (which we totally did legit by the way, no one looks that up), and then go to the dungeon by following the beeps. It seems more open but I didn't felt it was too dynamic. The entire chapter 3, is also a glorified hallway with a short detour in the boo mansion which is a pretty nice non-combat area. Tubba Blubba's castle is insanely linear, though, as there's really only one path. Chapter 4 Toy box is just you entering the toybox, going down one of two hallways, finding a something to bring back to Toad Town, which in turn lets you proceed to another set of hallways with keys at the end until you reach the boss. Chapter 5 I'll give you it's not explicitly linear but it's also not open as there's areas you have to do first in order to proceed. Chapter 6 is extremely linear. It's just 6 hallways that you have to do in order one after the other. Chapter 7 is a bit less linear but outside of the murder mystery, which happens at the very beginning, you just go to thw right to starborn valley, return for a bucket, and open the path to the castle which is moving right. The crystal castle has a fun gimmick but it itself is also pretty linear with one clear cut order and path intended for you to take. Overall I think it's just as linear and open as TTYD in terms of level design. The thing is that it's a lot shorter so it doesn't feel tedious. The whole game is pretty short which is a good thing all things considered, it's hard to find a JRPG as replayable as it is.
Linear design isn’t inherently inferior or superior to non linear design it’s just different. Like comparing super Metroid to metroid dread. Is one designed better then the other? Ok that’s a horrible example but you get what I’m saying
To be quite honest...strangely I don't like Paper Mario 2 all that much, but I like Paper Mario 1 all the more, and I have only played Paper Mario 1 up to chapter 2 while I have completed Paper Mario 2. I just noticed some flaws that Paper Mario 2 has, such as the well-known backtracking in the game and long loading times when entering a new area in Rogueport for example. Also I found Paper Mario 2 rather easy, especially with the addition of special attacks that use Star Energy provided by the audience. I could almost spam Earthquakes that use 2 units of Star Energy and can deal maximum damage of 6 to every enemy, regardless of their defense. Airborne enemies could also be hit if an Earthquake dealt enough damage and reached the airborne enemies as well.
You made some great points. I'll bear them in mind when I play remake. I can say though, I very recently played through 64 again, and it holds up tremendously well. Game is absolutely outstanding. I've considered it in contention for my favourite game of all time alongside TTYD too, and I think I share your placing - I put 64 first mostly just based on personal taste, but I understand the art of games better nowadays, so it'll be nice to see what your observations here do to influence that positioning going into a playthrough of remake when it releases. That aside, great video man. 🙂👌
It also has a much more expansive modding scene! There are quite a few really fun fanmade mods/romhacks that make the experience feel completely fresh. I would recommend checking them out, it's honestly impressive. There's even one that ports the combat of ttyd over to 64 pretty much 1 to 1. TTYD does have a modding scene but there's really only 2 mods that are really worth it, and one of them isn't finished yet.
I think TTYD and PM64 both have parts the other is missing. TTYD has a better battle system, character writing, and overall plot whereas PM64 has a more cohesive and expansive world, a lot of hidden secrets that encourages exploration, better puzzle design, and better environmental design (Bow's mansion sticks out as THE foremost example of all of these at their best). If Nintendo can just marry these two, we'd have THE Perfect Paper Mario Game.
Although TTYD does a few things better, I've always preferred the original. I think that for a lot of people, their preference comes down to which one they played first. PM64 came out late in the system's life cycle and so it's possible that a lot of people missed its original release, played TTYD first, and then finally played PM64 when it released on Wii Virtual Console or something.
I liked it a lot, but wasn't super in love with it or anything. Like it's better than many of the recent Paper Mario games but nowhere near the originals for me. The controls were kinda annoying too.
I can agree on this pm64 needs a remake while I wish ttyd got a remaster instead of a remake then a remaster they don’t have to really change anything or add stuff to make it easier when it probably won’t make stuff easier.
Final comment, on the subject of a Paper Mario 64 remake: As I'd love a remake of the original Paper Mario, especially if they added stuff like TTYD's mechanics, a post-game, and more challenges like at the Dojo and it's own Pit of 100 Trials, I feel that's a lot less likely now that we're getting a remake of TTYD, 4 years after the release of The Origami King, which itself came out 4 years after Color Splash. It feels like if they were going to remake the first game, it'll take just as long, and not only do I feel Nintendo and Intelligent Systems would rather make a fully new installment after this one, I feel like most fans would rather see that as well as opposed to another remake. As for an HD port... well, Paper Mario is already available to play through Nintendo Switch Online in HD, so we kind of already have an HD port. I'd say it being on NSO means we probably won't get a remake of that game, but then again Link's Awakening is also available on NSO even though it got a remake, so who even knows what Nintendo's line of thinking is with that kind of thing. I do think you actually made a fair point about remaking PM64 vs. remaking TTYD, though, in that there's only so much you can "fix" when it comes to the flaws baked in to that game's level design. Compared to that, remaking PM64 is basically just improving what was already there. In retrospect, I can't help but feel like an opportunity was missed here... Oh well.
I think that because of Paper Mario 64 already been on Switch, I am happy they remade TTYD, because I prefer playing on HD portable mode than on the TV on Wii as I did some years ago, and I can already do that with the original, so... But I want they to remake PM64 someday, and that the next new Paper Mario is on the same world as these 2 games
I prefer n64 paper mario over thousand year door i love the music and sprite style and gameplay more and plus its cozier in comparason. N64 paper mario is the game that deserved a remake the most
Nice video. I feel I fall in a similar camp of enjoying 64 just a little more. So its always nice to find company. All the talk at the end of adding things on to 64 to cover its shortcomings reminds me of a mod I got into called Paper Mario TTYD-64. It basically takes all the mechanics from Thousand Year Door and puts them into 64. Might be worth looking into if you enjoy the maps and story of 64 but wish it played out more like Thousand Year Door.
I’ve always believed that TTYD had the much higher highs, but much much lower lows. The original on the other hand is a much more consistent good experience.
Thanks for the fantastic video Jopro, so nice to see someone defend and say good things about the original Paper Mario ! Like you l definitely enjoyed it more than Thousand Year Old Door, and a little surprise Nintendo didn’t make a remake of this game first before TTYD, and like you l agree Nintendo at some point will remake this game, l hope if they do that they don’t use the TTYD engine and try to make it look more like the original but with updated graphics ! Can’t wait to see more Paper Mario videos this month !
I completely agree with your take on this. I love TTYD but I liked 64 better and wish it was being remade as well. Dry Dry Desert was my favorite area.
Story, pacing, atmosphere, world design, bosses -> it's a wash for the first game. Bowser and Peach sections way better too (god Tek is so boring). Love both but the first has another point on its belt over TTYD.
I prefer the more interesting characters locations more interactive battles and a more interesting story than bowser kidnapped peach stop him. That’s why I like ttyd better. But again both do things better than the other. I think it’s being dishonest to say there aren’t thing ttyd does better and things 64 does better whether which you prefer.
Also TTYD relies more on plot twists and story events than it does on your progression through the adventure. Like there are hardly any fulfilling or interesting dungeons that lead up to the chapter endings. PM64 paces both it's overworld and combat gameplay perfectly, it feels like the slightly bigger adventure
@@lightninja4795 I like the way Bowser is presented in PM64 better. He is comical like he is in SMRPG, but he is also a legitimate threat. Bowser in TTYD is comic relief filler and doesn't affect the game at all until appearing as the surprise penultimate final boss.
They're both great for different reasons but this remake makes me realize there's less replayability in TTYD than 64 (the chapters are not as exciting upon replay compared to 64). I just really enjoy the environment and charm from 64 and less linear levels!
Great video dude as you said 64 and ttyd both do things better than the others i do think what ttyd loses from 64 is made up for in other areas like you mentioned more interesting partners more battle mechanics etc. Nice to see different opinions even though we don’t agree.
I know I'm speaking totally from nostalgia here, but the first Paper Mario will always be the best to one to me. I grew up with both games, I played them as a kid, but I remember playing through the first game together with my dad and my sister, it was so much fun for us, and we have so many great memories with it. I acknowlege that Thousand Year Door added so much more to what the first game established and is really the full realization of the first game's concept, I mean, the story, the lore, the battle system, the badges, the side quests, the post game, content, it is objectively a bigger and more interesting game, but I still enjoy the first one more. Thousand Year Door really does a great job of flipping the script by putting Mario in an unfamiliar location; Rogueport isn't like the Mushroom Kingdom, it's sketchy, dingy and crime-ridden, there aren't really any friendly faces, Mario's not known as the hero that he is back at home, but he still helps so many people everywhere he goes and inspires hope in everyone he meets. Each chapter tells it's own unique little story and has you meet so many fun, memorable characters that accompany you on your journey, it really tells an interesting story that's so different from anything else in the Mario franchise. Paper Mario 64 still sticks out to me though, I feel like it's the one game that actually takes the typical "Bowser kidnaps Peach, Mario has to save her" convention and turns it into an actual story, rather than brushing it off as bland and unisnteresting and trying to do something different like Mario RPG. I mean, Bowser and Peach actually have definitive character traits in this one, sure Mario RPG kind of gave them personalities, but Paper Mario perfected them, it certainly did a better job than RPG at making the Mushroom Kingdom feel like a living, breathing world, especially with locales like Toad Town, and the fact that there are Goombas, Koopas, Boos and other characters that aren't just enemies, they're actual characters with little communities. I don't even really play RPGs, I always thought they were too complicated when I was a kid, which kept me from playing other classic games like Final Fantasy 7, but I feel like Paper Mario successfully simplified the needlesly complicated battle systems and overblown number values, made them easier to understand, and made them more interesting and interactive with action commands. I think it's so cool that TTYD is being remade, it looks beautiful, and I still love it, but the original is still special to me, and I hope it gets remade too someday.
As a TTYD die hard (but also a fan of the OG), I came into this video ready to hate-watch thinking it was just rage bait. The first two points you raise are things that haven’t crossed my mind before, and you’re absolutely right about them both. It’ll be hard to un-see the hallway design you’re referencing on future playthroughs. Most of your other points are good too, though the audio one I don’t quite agree with. For me, TTYD’s world music is more memorable and fits the environments so well. I can’t really recall a boss theme from either game though. While I can appreciate the art style of the original, I love how much of a step forward TTYD feels in every aspect, visually. Both games have their wins and losses and they’re both incredible in their own right. A 64 remake is definitely welcomed, hopefully TTYD on switch does well enough to convince them to do it.
I like the points you make. I see things from the perspective of someone that played ttyd first and 64 second. When I first saw the star spirits, I was like "oh cool, its the guys from mario party 5" 😂. I like the idea that every boss is connected to Bowser. But i like the perspective of ttyd where every party is racing to find the treasure, instead of all the stars being protected by 1 larger entity. I also like how Hooktail and her brothers are echoed boss fights, but they are all so unique in their design and attacks compared to each other. It serves as extra substance to an already chock full cast of great characters. I also have always loved Lord Crump as the comedy relief mini boss, and I think running into him, Doopliss, Dupree, the three sisters, and the Piantas a few times throughout the story makes Mario's journey feel more personal, and makes the world feel more lived in. I also think the Magnus Von Grapple theme slaps, but even moreso now in the remake. Its always cool to see a returning boss get revenge. Lets not forget about Bowsers second battle theme, Rawk Hawk, Dooplisses intro music, The Glitzville OG theme.. man
I don’t understand the badge critique on ttyd. Sure if you are farming then you can stack a lot of badges but if you play the game casually and level everything evenly you will have around 30-35 badge only slightly more than paper Mario’s max badge cap at 30. I play ttyd casually all the time and I never have over 35 Bp when leveling everything evenly. Now if you do farm then yeah but you can also just farm in 64 to get max badge points so I don’t get that point. I only understand this point if you mean that you never invest into hp and fp then I understand what you mean but that also makes you die to almost everything in 1 hit in the late game. So not really.
There are literal hp and FP plus badges so you never have to invest in HP and FP. His critiques are spot on and its much easier to get broken badges in TTYD thanks to duplicates now existing far more that can be infinitely obtained unlike the badges you got in 64 and that being all you got. With all that said neither game is balanced well but 64 is much less broken than TTYD. You don't need HP and FP for TTYD and 64. Also Yoshidude is the most broken partner in paper mario existence. You only need 15 BP and to be in chapter 3 to break TTYD. Chapter 3 opens up the casino which allows you to gamble and start a pyramid scheme that allows you to convert coins into pianta coins which can then be traded for Last stand stacking and power rush stacking. Compare that to the finite amounts of stuff like this including things like pretty lucky which almost every badge in TTYD is farmable thanks to Ms. Mowz. Even without farming the game gives you so much broken tools in comparison to 64 with a much larger max item inventory.
@@dave9515 Fp and hp badges exist in paper mario 64 too? I think farming shows that you have to go out of your way to make yourself op which that can be applied to rpgs in general. Of course if you farm you will be overpowered. Yeah ttyd has multiple hp plus and fp plus. Paper 64 also has 3 fp plus. Two in the forest and one at the shop. There is also a hp plus at Koopa bros fortress and also in the shop. I will give you this I think the bp should have been capped at 30 in ttyd instead of 99. I will say that I do like having 99 bp also because it allows you to customize the game way more than 64. You can make challenge runs or make yourself overpowered through farming and just watching everything which can be funny. Overall you bring up the point of farming which can be applied to rpgs in general and the fact that in ttyd you have to farm to become overpowered and it’s not from just natural game progression is good game design. Again both games can be broken. You can find videos of people destroying bosses in 64 in a couple of seconds with badge set ups. While ttyd can be broken much easier if you go out of your way to do it which why would you go out of your way to make the game easier this is not an exclusive problem to ttyd. Here are the things each game does better than the other Less hallway design Less backtracking (Does not mean there is no backtracking in 64. The two biggest pointers are shys guys toy box and flower fields.) Badge limit Star sprites over crystal stars More interconnected world Ttyd More fleshed out battle system More interesting story with unique villains More interesting partners More interesting hub End game content Partners can use items and switch positions in battle to take damage. Action commands from beginning Paper Mario 64 is my second favorite paper mario game besides ttyd. Shoutout to paper mario ttyd 64 mod that adds ttyd mechanics into 64. Overall what ttyd loses from the first game I feel is made up for in the areas it gained. Great talk and being civil about this.
@@lightninja4795 I agree and acknowledged 64 has balance issues as well. I also undertand TTYD has better options for challenge runs. Used to be a superguard hater but with parries common in action games i realized superguards are that for paper mario so my stance has changed on that recently. TTYD has its ups but i think i like 64 for its consistency more. Also on teh topic of partners they always seem to outshine mario in both 64 and TTYD. Also yeah TTYD isn't the only game out there you can break at the start. Both are great games like you said and i hope i didn't come off as rude or anything. My favorite experience with paper mario is the mods as well like TTYD64, Masterquest and i have a feeling hero mode gonna be my favorite way to experience PM combat. IDK but Reed is cooking with his mod for TTYD. Now if you want to know what i meant by consistency well the pacing of 64 is much more consistent imo with its chapter structures and i really like how after a chapter ends and peach segment you can go straight to the next area usually while having to revisit the TYD really makes replays a drag in TTYD and i would enjoy TTYD much more if after colecting one star you could go to the next area without having to watch the cutscene with the map over and over again. Also if there was a shortcut from twilight town to creepy steeple among other QOL changes to greatly reduce backtracking which seems to not have been done in the "remake" of TTYD. For me the lows and backtracking of TTYD make me enjoy 64 much more nowadays. I also love how 64 has a rogue gallery. Sorry for the very late response btw. Been replaying Tales of Berseria. Great action game.
@@dave9515 Hey no problem good discussions. Again to me the things ttyd has over 64 make up the for the things it does worse. Yes I agree with you that 64 is a more consistency than ttyd also they can fix the backtracking in the ttyd remake by adding pipes from creepy steeple to twilight town and from flurry’s house to the entrance of boggle woods. I would make you travel from creepy steeple and twilight town twice but after that a pipe unlocks that allows you to warp to creepy steeple. I think they might be doing that because I thought I saw a new pipe added in hook-tails castle could be wrong. Like I said I do think paper mario 64 is hands down the second best paper mario game at worst and it is more consistent but again like I said earlier I think ttyd makes up for its lower lows with higher highs. Maybe it’s because I replay the game so much that I’m used to the backtracking that it does not bother me. Yeah you’re fine dude about taking a while to respond. We can at least agree on one thing 64 and ttyd better than sticker star lol Just a curios question if they do add more pipes within the chapters which they might considering Nintendo said they want to improve the backtracking. Like a pipe from creepy steeple and twilight town that unlocks after 2 trips same thing with flurry’s house and boggle woods would ttyd be on the same level as 64 since by your comment it seems like the backtracking is your biggest issue which that is commonly sited as ttyd biggest flaw. Excited to see your response. Think Nintendo remaster paper mario 64 would be great.
@@lightninja4795 If they fixed those things then yeah i probably would think TTYD is the better package overall. After all like you said the backtracking is what bugs me the most if i am being honest. If that got fixed i would probably even think TTYD is the better game at that point but still have a very soft spot for 64 cause it was my first paper mario game as a kid so due to high amounts of nostalgia i would personally have them both in goat tier for ranking them.
I agree! They’re both amazing games, and there are things I prefer about TTYD, but overall I do slightly prefer the first Paper Mario. Hopefully the new TTYD will sell well and they’ll also remake the first.
Exactly! And at least with shy guy toybox and flower fields the warp isn't with a pipe. So they count but only partially imo. I don't get why they couldn't design the game so you walk to Petal Meadows ya know? Makes the game feel rather disconnected.
While 64 has two chapters connected within walking distance, the other locations aren't really that different than how you access TTYD areas. And if you count Prologues and chapter 8 it also doesn't change much. It's really just a marginal difference.
There's a lot i agree with you on in regard to this list, but i think the only one i would really disagree with is about toad town. I think rogue port despite being smaller is way more interesting and you also have the underground which expand it a little a more. But they're both good enough games that feel different so that usually when i play one i immediately want to play the other lol
1. Eldstar after defeating Koopa Bros in the Koopa Bros Fortress at Chapter 1 Refresh 2. Mamar after defeating Tutankoopa in Dry Dry Ruins at Chapter 2 Lullaby 4. Skolar after defeating Tubba Blubba in Gusty Gulch at Chapter 3 Star Storm 5. Muskular after defeating General Guy in Shy Guy's Toy Box at Chapter 4 Chill Out 6. Misstar after defeating Lava Piranha in Mt. Lavalava at Chapter 5 Smooch 6. Klevar after defeating Huff N. Puff in Flower Fields at Chapter 6 Time Out 7. Kalmar after defeating Crystal King in Crystal Palace at Chapter 7 Up & Away
As much as i like both games, i still think ttyd is better than 64 as ttyd is one of if not my all time favorite paper mario game and my all time favorite turn based rpg game and the fact that it got a remake for the switch makes me love ttyd even more
This game feels more connected, more planning when entering battles whereas ttyd feels more brute force. The music sticks out more in my opinion, and the characters feel more fleshed out. Ttyd has a more darker tone that is fine but its also a more disconnected world so at times can be very tedious. I like both games just think 64 is the better of the two in terms of memorability. I think ttyd is too cryptic to new players and a lot more punishing at times.
Paper Mario Month continues!
A few things to note. This is NOT a critique of TTYD, I love that game to death. It's just a fun discussion of how 64 does many things better.
Also, regarding the battle mechanics point...of course I prefer TTYD's. Allies being able to use items and switch party placement is amazing. My point was more about badge stacking specifically, and that 64 is tougher in many ways due to the stricter limitations.
hi
Honestly, my favorite game is 64 then ttyd
I'm iffy on that it's a double edge sword. I kind of didn't like having my partners having their own HP. It was something more I had to worry about and take care of especially when it only matters when Mario goes to zero and not the others so of course Marios gonna be the priority. So I kind of rather had kept it that way instead
64 is a cozy, ttyd is crazy. Gameplay aside, the vibe or the two games is completely different but they complement eachother perfectly. 64 feels like a very homey story with familiar characters and relatively safe settings. This makes the weirdness of ttyd stand out more and make it feel more adventurous.
Yeah I agree! I love both in different ways. These are just reasons I like the first game more, but towards the end of the video I mention ways TTYD is much better too.
PM64 is the perfect "Hero's Journey" arc for what I feel should be the "canonical" normal Mario-saving-Peach-in-Mushroom-Kingdom story among all Mario games.
TTYD is a perfect sequel to that "main" story.
This, the 2 games honestly make a perfect dichotomy with each other. TTYD is pretty much the "dark twin" of 64, it completely flips the tone upside down and even has a completely new visual style to go with it, it feels like 2 completely different people with different goals in mind made these games, the whiplash you get from TTYD after playing 64 is amazing.
I can almost see why Nintendo couldn't figure out how to make a 3rd entry alongside them for 20 years, 64 and TTYD have this ying-yang relationship that honestly doesn't leave much room for a threequel. No wonder they said "fuck it, let's turn the 2D Bowser sections from the sequel into its own game"
@@JoProGamingTTYD is really only better in a combat sense to me.
Thousand year door to paper Mario 64 is like Majora’s mask to Ocarina of time. The originals are the adventure you’d expect while the direct sequel has a completely different darker and weirder vibe while still keeping it familiar and linking to the first game.
My favorite aspect of PM64 is its sense of foreshadowing. It’s so interesting that each chapter starts with Bowser anointing the next boss threat you’ll inevitably fight. That combined with the game beginning with losing to bowser makes him feel like a genuine threat. In contrast, Bowser is a team rocket level parody in TTYD
The foreshadowing aspect you mentioned works amazingly with Chapter 3 in PM64. Even Bowser's soldiers actually wonder if Tubba Blubba is stronger than Bowser himself.
What do you mean? The comparison would obviously be to the foreshadowing done with Grodus and the X-Nauts, and the whole thousand year door plot, not to a character that's barely in the story.
There's one other thing I'd like to add that Paper Mario 64 gets better: the chapter Title cards. In 64's chapter titles you see a brief glimpse of Mario facing off against a silhouette of the big bad final boss of the chapter and its a cool little foreshadowing. It makes every chapter title card feel unique and gives it personality. It's way more interesting than just a generic spinning coin that is the exact same for every chapter.
I also like that if you leave the title card on screen for a little while, the OG SMB theme starts playing. Idk if TTYD does that.
I thought I was some alien liking the original more than its sequel with how much love Thousand Year Door gets. The only big gripe I have with 64 is its opening taking forever to give you your action commands.
Here's one stupid thing I like about Paper Mario 64 that none of the other Mario RPGs have:
The boos aren't enemies. They are prankster obstacles. This feels congruous with the mainline games, and it's weird how in the other Mario RPGs, you can just jump on the boos.
The art style of Paper Mario 64 is so unique compared to the newer games. Its presentation is reminiscent of a pop-up storybook, similar to Yoshi's Island. The characters are all 2D sprites, which give the characters a lot of lively expressions. Mario especially has a lot of sprites in contrast to the later games, which gives him a lot of personality.
I think it would unfortunately be removed if Nintendo decided to remake the game in a newer engine.
Actually, Smorg and Hooktail are connected the bigger plot. Smorgs are actually an experiment of the X-nauts and Hooktail and her brothers are agents of the Shadow Queen, it’s just dialouge told to you by an npc on the rooftops
Oh yeah, this is true! But 64s bosses are still far more connected nonetheless.
I prefer there being disconnected bosses mixed in. Makes things more interesting when there's more than just "one villain and it's minions that are just extensions of main villain"
Was it ever confirmed that the Smorgs are connected to the X-Nauts? I don't recall there being anything in-game that ties them to either the X-Nauts or any of the game's major antagonists.
Wait how you'd know that about the smorgs? I know the story about the hooktail,bonetail,gloomtail being her pets but nothing about the smorgs. Is there any in game info on that?
It never outright says it but it’s heavily implied. When Doopliss gets off the train he says something like “I’ll leave it up to Beldam now,” leading one to believe that Beldam went to the switch in riverside, flipped it, and covered it with smorgs.
I played PM64 for the first time when I was only about 9 or 10 years old. The way Bowser lifted Peach's castle up into the sky, before thoroughly ousting Mario felt like such a statement from him. Dealing your entire HP worth of damage in one shot, after casting invincibility on himself, was a great demonstration to the immense gap between the player and Bowser's strength at the time, and just how much work you had to look forward to doing before you could challenge him again. Bowser wasn't just kidnapping the princess anymore, he was showing the whole Mushroom Kingdom that he was essentially their new ruler. Going back there after so many hours, and meeting him at the same broken window that Bowser crashed through the first time (and sent Mario flying out of) was also incredible. For a game that essentially relies on the old formula, they did a great job of fleshing it out and breathing so much life into it. I think there's a real reason so many people fell in love with the franchise after that.
You could cut Bowser from TTYD and you would only miss him knocking out Grodus for a second. He feels honestly tacked on.
I know, they make the same joke about him being one step behind like 7 times and it’s not really ever funny, it’s honestly disrespectful to the character
@@Avinkwep And the gameplay in his levels is just SMB1 but near impossible to lose. I never look forward to him breaking up the story
@@robertlauncher ya his gameplay could’ve at least been interesting or challenging but it’s just basic uninteresting platforming. His ability to breath fire while you walk around the areas the few times you get to also isn’t used for anything
@@Avinkwep I forget about it every time and end up accidentally attacking my troops during the castle scene 😂
@@robertlauncher him knocking out Grodius isn’t necessary either since Grodius could just run away to the shadow queen room after you beat him
7:14 this is because Paper Mario 64 uses sequences for its themes due to it being on the N64, while TTYD uses streamed music because of the bigger disc size now being able to support bigger audio
I think an HD, widescreen remaster would be perfect for this game. PM64's art style deserves to be fully preserved, which I fear a remake might replace (to make it closer align the rest of the series).
+I definitely understand most of these points, particularly with level design, world design and movement. I think the overlapping story is also better executed, since you get to know Bowser better than you get to know Grodus.
6:47 By the way, since you like the Paper Mario 64 soundtrack, you should check out "New! Paper Mario" by Adel Almas, which has most of the OST remastered, but with a more updated synth and crispier percussion (relatively faithful to the original game, just better quality). I think Gusty Gulch is the best one of these (being extra Spanish Flamenco).
I'm still bummed that PM64 got skipped over for Switch remakes. TTYD is a phenomenal game, but PM64 is my ultimate warm blanket kind of cozy adventure. It would benefit from a graphical and mechanical update more than TTYD, and then maybe we could make Flower Fields be actually fun.
For real, they've now remade every single acclaimed Mario RPG *except* the original Paper Mario, ironically the game that did the best at bringing Mario's world to the RPG format.
TTYD looks great already and the gamecube version still holds up to this day, while PM64's graphics did not age nearly as well and could definitely use the HD upgrade way more
@@linus6718
Whenever they feel like remaking it, I do hope that they keep PM64's pixel art style, instead of giving TTYD's style of animation.
@@VonFirflirchYeah, I think if they decide to take the TTYD art style, they could at least give a option to use the original art style. I would like to play in both
64 is my favorite as well, and always get disappointed when people put it down to prop up TTYD (which TTYD really doesn't need, it's great on its own). You voiced pretty much every reason I prefer 64, but something I'd like to add on top of point 3 is that I think 64 has better sound design. The sound effects in 64 just have so much more punch! I can barely hear hit sounds in TTYD, for example. They get lost in the mix
What Paper Mario 64 has is more movement stuff, like the Spin Dash. I WISH and that's capital WISH that this was in TTYD, I hate how slow and unsatisfying walking is in that game. This is not even talking about how broken and duct-taped Pape 64 is
well paper 64 was well made for a 64 title
You do get the yoshi fighter as a speed boost but yeah the spin dash is sorely missed
TTYD actually needed the spin dash way more than PM64 lmao
IMO PM64 is a much more consistently enjoyable experience compared to TTYD. TTYD certainly has its high points where I thought it was way better than PM64, but it also has its low points that genuinely frustrated me to no end (to the point where on my first playthrough I genuinely wanted to quit the game at certain points).
I had no such negative experiences with PM64. It doesn't attempt to do anything nearly as crazy as TTYD, but as a result it also doesn't stumble nearly as hard in a lot of places, and every time I fire it up I know I'll be pretty consistently having fun throughout the entire game.
To me the main point in which PM64 is great is how it's a perfect "Hero's Journey" trope done right, specially on how the epilogue is a perfect closure for the arc set up on the prologue.
Prologue: you're invited to the castle, excited to meet the princess, meet some interesting folks along the way (from various origins) but know nothing about them yet
Bowser interrupts you right when you're about to have a moment alone with Peach
(journey, starts, you go through many trials, etc), you finally defeat Bowser
Epilogue: there's AGAIN a party at the castle, just like it should have been the 1st time, except now:
- this time Bowser doesn't interrupt you anymore
- you feel your growth from the journey
- all those previously unknown people are now beloved characters you met at their original cities and helped
- you're somewhat free to explore the party and enjoy your victory instead of it merely ending after the final battle
When you feel the comparison, it's really satisfying specially on the 1st blind playthrough.
TTYD has a bit of this too, but I was still more satisfied with PM64's ending I feel.
To me, PM64 is the canonical normal "Mario saves Peach" story.
"all those previously unknown people are now beloved characters you met at their original cities and helped" This especially
I honestly found the peach and bowser segments in TTYD so boring and a slog to get through. I just did not care about TEC, he felt underdeveloped and a bit of a plot device rather than an actual character. And the Bowser segments could be cut from the story and nothing would really change. In comparison, I found 64's peach and bowser segments a lot more interesting and engaging, and found them more interesting and better characters.
Another thing 64 does better than TTYD and I've noticed after watching those bestiary vids but 64 has MUCH better enemy variety. In TTYD starting with Chapter 6 most of the "new" enemies you'll fight are stronger variations of older enemies. Ch 6 doesn't have a single original enemy. Ch 7 only has one with X-Naut PHD and Ch 8 only has one with Wizzerd. Everything else is a variant. In 64 while starting in Ch 3 they start using variants every chapter introduces at least 2-7 original enemies. I mean Ch 4 had 7 different Shy Guy enemies just for that chapter. Ch 5 has 7. Ch 6 has 4. Ch 7 has 2 and Ch 8 has 4. It also sucks that TTYD Pit of 100 trials hardest enemies are also just variants. 64 definitely does better in keeping on your toes.
This made me curious so I looked at both games' bestiaries and the they're actually surprisingly close when it comes to the amount of unique, non-boss enemies. The original paper mario barely edges it out because of the many shy guy variants, but still, the line between unique enemy and variant is subjective (I didn't count X-Naut phd as a unique enemy for example).
The bigger problem with ttyd is the sheer amount of enemies you see during chapter 3. After finishing the chapter you've seen the majority of unique designs and most of the new enemies going forward are going to be recolors.
That being said, ttyd has a larger amount of enemies overall, so proportionally, recolors are more prevalent, a few extra unique designs certainly wouldn't hurt, especially in the pit.
I have found my people! I'm so glad others feel this way
Thank you!! I said the same thing about a PM64 remake when TTYD got announced on Switch and my friends basically told me to stop fan-girling for 64 because TTYD was a "superior game". 😒
@Zihark_ Everyone has their opinion but TTYD doesn't have the charm that PM64 has. I will die on that hill haha I think the story and the levels were better in PM64 but the partners were better in TTYD.
yep partners were better in2 but it bugs that we got 7 instead of 8 in. sequel
@jaimeiswithnintendoswitch3766 That's true and in my first playthrough on gamecube I didn't even know you could get Ms. Mowz so I only had 6 partners lol I assume it was too much of a hassle to do the trouble center tasks and I said screw it haha
Honestly it’s difficult for me to decide which one is better
Finally someone said it. We need a remake of paper mario with new levels and the battle play of tyod.
One thing that bugged me about paper mario is you cant play acter beating bowser
I agree with most of these, but the TYD ost is one of the best soundtracks in any game ever. Also the crystal star locations are all connected to the shadow queen as told by the merchant on the rouge port rooftops
I just finsh tyd remake for the first time and I enjoy it. There few sound tracks that I like, but still think paper mario 64 has the better ots. Also there so much back tracking in tyd and my friend told me it was worse in the original game.
@@alexvergara479but did you listen to the new ost or old? Cause I agree the new ost for the remake isnt as good as the original paper Mario soundtrack l, but the original TTYD soundtrack is better than the original paper Mario soundtrack. Can't argue with the backtracking complaint tho
1. Goombario in Goomba Village at Prologue
2. Kooper in Koopa Village and Bombette in Koopa Bros Fortress at Chapter 1
3. Parakarry in Mt. Rugged at Chapter 2
4. Lady Bow in Boo Mansion near Gusty Gulch at Chapter 3
5. Watt in Shy Guy's Toy Box after defeating the Big Lantern Ghost at Chapter 4
6. Sushie in Yoshi's Village at Lavalava Island at Chapter 5
7. Lakilester in Flower Fields at Chapter 6
RIP Bombette.
@@ihavepissinmybrain yo she died?
For the bit about bosses being disconnected from the main story or final boss, I disagree. I thought it was interesting that these ancient artifacts known as Crystal Stars essentially got lost to time, and were either forgotten in some ancient steeple or giant, mystical tree, or ended up being used to siphon off people's power and rig tournaments in an arena in the sky, or as part of a ghostly pirate king's treasure haul. What I wish we would have gotten was some sort of elaboration on the history of these settings and their connections to the crystal stars. Meaning, *why* was a steeple constructed on the outskirts of a strange part of the world that's locked in twilight, and the moon looks bigger than it is? And why was there a museum/shrine dedicated to the stars which hid the crystal star in Poshley Heights? There's so much potential lore and significance to some of the eclectic locales from TTYD that never get elaborated on much, which leaves something to the imagination but I wish they'd done more to explain how these stars got scattered. That was probably their intention though.
1. Koopa Bros in Koopa Bros Fortress at Chapter 1
2. Tutankoopa in Dry Dry Ruins at Chapter 2
3. Tubba Blubba in Gusty Gulch at Chapter 3
4. General Guy in Shy Guy's Toy Box at Chapter 4
5. Lava Piranha in Mt. Lavalava at Chapter 5
6. Huff N. Puff in Flower Fields at Chapter 6
7. Crystal King in Crystal Palace at Chapter 7
8. Bowser in Bowser's Castle/Peach's Castle at Chapter 8
Gen-1 Paper Mario is also one of my all-time favorite games and I hope it will eventually be remade like TTYD, which also deserves a remake.
Fellow PM64 enthusiast here. While I wouldn’t call it better than TTYD, their quality is pretty neck and neck.
64 has the better level design but TTYD has the better combat to me.
This game is quite clearly to a fair degree inspired by Yoshi's Island, which makes it rather sumptuous (even more so the beta version.)
Hooktail was one of shadow Queen's pets and it's possible they used him to hide the crystal star so while it's not directly related hooktail does have some revelance to the plot but yeah everyone else not so much they're kind of just...there. lol
Hate to inform you that due to the game being on NSO I highly doubt it's gonna get a remaster at this point.
The super majority of the audience interactions in TTYD are negative for Mario, and only get more intensely worse with each seating upgrade, where as we see no rise in the good interaction intensity (let alone the flat number of positive occurrence).
Finally, i tottaly agree, here wishing the had done a remake of pm64 instead of ttyd, pm64 would definitely benefit more of a remake, they did ttyd just beacuss of its popularity, but the purpose of a remake should be enhance a game limited for its time, bring the game to light again.
just be glad they acknowledged anything that came before Sticker Star
Ttyd did need a remake to tone down backtracking and it was. Chapter 4 backtracking is now 3 trips Instead of 5 and a spring was added to keyhaul key before the cave. Also the warp pipe room added. Ttyd gets everything else right that it makes up for the backtracking especially now with the remake.
@@strangefishman7635nobody thinks you're clever or witty. stop.
Here are my reasons
1. Like the video said, the music in 64 is extremely memorable. I can hum pretty much every chapter boss theme, whereas the only ones that stood out to me in TTYD were Doopliss and Magnus Von Grapple. It has its good tracks, but the original just hits bullseyes nearly every time.
2. The linearity of Thousand Year Door hurts the Chapters in a way that isn’t an issue in the original. It’s not just that the latter half is bogged down by the amount of backtracking, but it’s backtracking to the same maybe two locations across the same halls. It really makes me wonder if the devs used it to pad out the actual content they had. Even at its worst, 64’s backtracking usually feels more like a fetch-quest across the map, where you visit different areas to get your item and then bring it and move on to something new. The train section in Thousand Year Door is ridiculous at times.
3. Thousand Year Door makes it far easier to get badges, to the point it removes some challenge. The badge shop is far more extensive with options, yet you can get a good chunk of them in the underground city anyway, and you also have the returning star piece exchange if that wasn’t generous enough. The remake also showers you with coins, meaning you never have to make a meaningful purchase. Paper Mario 64 has a rotation of three badges in the shop, some you can’t get from the exchange, and they’re expensive enough that they can break your bank if you’re not careful. Unless you cheat the game room, but I don’t count that.
just leaving a comment to appretiate a cultured individual that recognizes the gem that PM64 truly is
Where did you get the remixes of the PM soundtracks at? They sound amazing!
I've been using them since I started my channel in 2017, and I'm not 100% sure where I got them at this point. I usually don't use covers anymore, but I slipped a few into this vid.
I love Paper Mario for Nintendo 64 in 2001.
Me too
I know a lot of people want a true sequel but I’m okay with one more throwback and that they make a full on remake for the new generation.
As I was watching your video. Reason number 1 and 2 somehow never occurred to me till you pointed it out. Now that I think of it, Paper Mario 64 did have bigger areas which is odd because I really loved the levels and world designs in that game. Dry Dry Desert (including the ruins), Forever Forest (and the castle), LavaLava Island, even the last chapter with the ice level and palace. I could go on.
Admittedly, in the past I did prefer the first game’s level designs over Paper Mario TTYD when I first play them when I was younger. I love exploration in games and it just got me thinking that I should replay 64 some time. It’s great to hear that people have voiced their thoughts about the worlds/levels in 64 and TTYD. Before I thought I was a little crazy when I thought 64 had better ones. It’s good to hear people have similar opinions
As someone who has owned TTYD for 20 years and just started playing Paper Mario 64 last week, I gotta say that I am really loving it so far and I’m only on chapter 2. I get easily sidetracked with video games and hop back and forth between games, but I keep coming back to this game. P.S. Have you tried the Paper Mario
TTYD 64 mod by elDexter? Looks amazing.
Does it have a creepy AI computer that does not fit the world? Does it have an unnecessary and weird species of alien things that could be removed without really affecting the story or final encounter? Paper Mario 64 is the best game, period.
And it does not reslly need a remake. It is already perfect. TTYD is largely unnecessary.. and a new entry would simply be better than the same thing again. If people are so nostalgic about these.. just play the original!
One of each badge? But aren’t there multiple HP Up and FP Up badges in 64? I think there’s other duplicate badges too but I can’t remember which ones
You say they can’t fix the backtracking within the chapters but all they have to do is add a warp pipe between creepy steeple and twilight town unlocked after the first 2 trips and boomed its fixed. So they can fix it but the hallway type design that’s something that cannot be fixed if you even consider that a problem because many don’t as that’s just a core game design.
I grew up with Super Paper Mario, so i didnt get to experience PM64 until much later. Its one of my favorite games in the series, I love SPM and PM64 equally.
Still havent gotten around to TTYD yet so im looking fowards to playing it soon
yooooo this was my exact situation until i got ttyd
@@strangefishman7635what are your thoughts of the three games?
@@Stevintageall masterpieces
TTYD is pretty much the last PM game I played, it's a masterpiece. Not as good and rich as 64 imo but still a masterpiece
This definitely deserves a remake. Also make the partners combat be like ttyd
Also remove the only 30 BP bs
Now that I've played TTYD, with all it's improvements in the remake, I think I gotta give the win to TTYD. But PM64 definitely has it's advantages:
The battles have less RNG to worry about, which makes them more predictable but also emphasizes the player's strategic choices.
TTYD removed the upgraded badges like Mega Quake in favor of badge stacking, but you miss out on the unique visual effects those upgrades offered, and stacking more than two of the same stack badge is a horrible deal in terms of FP, pushing you to use the even more OP power plus badges instead.
It was cool being able to upgrade partners mid chapter instead of having to go back to a specific NPC.
It was cool that partners had their own damage mechanic instead of HP. It gave the player even less to focus on, but it added emphasis to the excellent core battle mechanics.
How would you compare paper mario 64 to super mario rpg?
I've beat Mario RPG both the original and remaster, but I'm not a huge fan. PM64 is wayyy better with a more beautiful world, better battle system, and more enjoyable characters for me.
@@JoProGaming Super Mario rpg still great though
super mario rpg is good, but Paper Mario does everything better.
I still feel like SMRPG could stand to get a sequel of its own. A TTYD to PM64, or rather, given the title of the video... a Melee to Smash64 x)
perhaps I will get to play this again, since it is available if you have the switch expansion membership. Thanks for promoting this old gem 👍 Hopefully it gets a remake soon... So many remakes need to be made. haha.
I see why you might like the more open chapters of PM64, but I think the TTYD chapters are very creative and unique. Chapter 2, 3, 4, and 6 are each very different, and don’t follow specific tropes of what Mario games are known for. The only chapter that stands out like this for me in PM64 is chapter 4 and maybe 6.
For me the third chapter of the original might be one of the most creative ones in the whole series. The whole thing of having an invincible boss at first and having to find his heart to beat him is super original. Even the theme is very strange, with it first being a classic creepy forest but turning into this death gulch which is super creative
@@t00nbink Finding the idiosyncrasies to progress in the Forever Forest was pretty fun.
No. 6 Toad town also has some other pretty neat things, like for example, you can talk to the toad that you give the shy guy's note to translate to and he will give you some hints or just some lore.
And there is also the club 64 near the harbor, they didn't really have to put it there, but it's neat.
All in all, Toad town just feels more lively, i get that Rogueport was supposed to feel more, how do you say it... poor or gloomy, something completely different from what you're used to, but it could still have had some more details.
I played PM64 as a kid (Beat the game twice I think). Now I'm a young adult, and last year I finally played TTYD, but I quit during the train chapter because I found it too...boring / tedious (I then watched a long play for the rest of the game). Not sure if my play times would be the same or different if I played PM64 as an adult, or TTYD as a kid.
There were a few extra points that were factors in me not enjoying TTYD as much:
1. The battle system. I know you did mention it, but I think its the other way around. I don't like *any* of the TTYD battle changes. It feels like there's more quick time events as failed attempt to be challenging, especially for things that shouldn't need them (e.g. Tattle). The crowd is just a huge downgrade for me, I legitimately enjoyed the prologue battle system more because there was no crowd getting noisy every time something happened, or bingo (Which did absolutely nothing but waste time and break flow, 95% of the time), or the "X prompt" in between turns and having to squint and scan the crowd to see WHO is chucking something, but also WHAT it is and if you should even press X or not (This sucks on small screens), or the shy-guys jumping on stage and breaking the flow, and the stage hazards. The set pieces randomly falling on combatants and breaking flow again, and stuff like the mist is just annoying. Who loves it when your attacks and the enemy's attacks miss 90% of the time? The only new battle change I'm undecided on is the party member changes (Now having a HP meter and separate badges).
2. TTYD recycles so much. Both games have a main town with an underground sewer system, and your main goal is to gather the stars and use their power to free Peach and stop the big bad. Chapter 1 starts in a fields area leading to a village with Koopa residents, then you end the chapter by scaling a large tower and defeating the boss. Chapter 5 is on a tropical island and features an explorer you've seen since the early chapters of the game, but he's really a coward. There's a chapter with a haunted mansion and the boss has a special secret that you need to uncover in order to truly beat him. Both games feature Peach getting kidnapped, yet she's basically running all over the place under her captor's nose. Etc. If I played TTYD first, this wouldn't be a problem. The ideas are fine, but PM64 already did it so well, that its hard to look past the recycled elements.
3. The ending felt anti-climatic. So you're telling me that Bedlam suddenly did a 180 and became good, just because the Shadow Queen is now dead? She was waiting for 1000 years. She's loyal and persistent, I don't see her giving up that easily. And now the X-Nauts are good, because Grodus is just a head and totally not a threat. Also, I kind of expected more from Grodus in general. And yeah, Bowser (But especially Kammy Koopa) being a joke the whole game was a let down. Funilly enough, I wasn't prepared for him in the Glitz Pit and he wrecked me. Which was a welcome surprise.
OK, I had a MASSIVE comment that I wanted to leave, but it ended up being so massive that I couldn't actually post the comment. If you'll permit me, I'd like to split my comment up into 3 comments, talking about stuff I agree with, stuff I disagree with, and the subject of a remake for Paper Mario 64. I don't mean for this to come off as spam, I just had a lot to say about this subject, as it turned out. OK, first off, what I agreed with:
It's interesting, I've seen at least one person echo similar sentiments to this in the past, in particular emphasizing the level design and less mandatory and more easier backtracking. Also, the loss of the Spin Dash does suck when it comes to The Thousand-Year Door, even with the Yoshi Kid, it'd be nice to have a handy way to go faster without having to switch to a specific partner. I also appreciate that Paper Mario 64's world is more cohesive, in that it's more interconnected, thus feeling like a more complete world; TTYD's major areas are all segmented, basically having you relying on pipes within Rogueport's Sewers to get to most of the major areas in the game, whereas PM64, with the exception of the Shiver Region, everywhere can be accessed by going through Toad Toad. Koopa Village and the Koopa Bros. Fortress, as well as Forever Forest, Boo Mansion, and Gusty Gultch, are even directly connected to Toad Town, and that makes things feel more natural. Also, speaking for myself, but something I found appealing about the original Paper Mario is that it genuinely felt like this was the definitive Mushroom Kingdom, in that a lot of major areas within Mario's world feel accounted for, and unlike Super Mario RPG before it, it doesn't feature too many new areas, characters, and species that we haven't seen before (or sense), lending credence to the idea that this is the same world Mario inhabits in the mainline games. That said, I love the unique spins and personalities it gives to the traditional Mario species we see like Toads, Goombas, Koopa Troopas, etc. It's familiar, but presented in a way mainline Mario games never bother to do, and that's what really appealed to me, back when I first played it as a kid. Incidentally, I can't really speak on "OP Battle Mechanics", there's a lot of new options that came with TTYD that I love compared to the fairly limited Paper Mario 64, but I will say I also wasn't a huge fan of the "Badge Stacking" either, particularly in the case of the Quake Hammer; that was my favorite badge in Paper Mario 64, and I'd much rather have three badges for 3 different attacks, since I might not need a really powerful Quake Hammer attack to deal with some enemies. I don't get that option with TTYD, I just stack badges to get stronger Quake Hammers that cost more FP the stronger they get. Not really sure if one system is better or worse, though. When it comes to Toad Town vs. Rogueport, though, I initially figured this was a subjective thing, but as you pointed out, there IS more to do in Toad Town than Rogueport, what with the Dojo, the Post Office, Mario & Luigi's House, and the Li'l Oink Farm, not to mention it is overall much bigger than Rogueport, which does help it feel more lively in comparison. It honestly makes me wish Rogueport was bigger, just to make it a more fair comparison and have the differences between them be more down to personal tastes in terms of what you want out of a hub area. I didn't fully realize how much TTYD repeats the same or similar bosses until you pointed that out, though, even setting aside fighting the Shadow Sirens and Doopliss twice, there are two Magnus von Grapple fights, two Bowser fights and three dragon boss fights. Granted they're stronger the second or third time you fight them, but still, weird... Also Smorg is a pure WTF boss that literally comes out of nowhere, feels almost pointless in a way, just there to make sure chapter 6 has some kind of boss fight. Similarly, I didn't realize how minimal the original Thousand-Year Door was in terms of character expressions until you pointed it out. I don't know why, I probably should have realized that the moment I saw all the trailers and clips from the remake and saw all those new expressions Mario and the other characters get for certain scenes, but yeah, the original Paper Mario had a LOT of unique sprites for Mario, many of which only get used once or twice, it's actually quite impressive looking back on that. I'm also in agreement Peach and Bowser are also better utilized in the first game; Peach is more proactive in PM64 whereas she's heavily reliant on what TEC wants her to do (not to mention this creepy recurring thing where the game keeps finding excuses for Peach to take off her clothes, which I hope is dialed back in the remake). And as much as I love Bowser's segments in TTYD, he barely contributes to the game's story otherwise. Aside from suddenly crashing in on Grodus near the end of the game, you could cut him out of the game and very little would change. Of course, I'd never dream of removing Bowser from TTYD, his segments are some of the highlights of the whole game, but I've seen people express disappointment that Bowser isn't more involved. Even in games where he's not the main villain and is mostly comic relief, he still manages to be a big player in those games respective stories, often in unexpected ways, which is kind of a shame that TTYD doesn't rise to that level.
No disrespect, but this could have easily been paraphrased and condensed.
@@ihavepissinmybrain It probably could have, but I had already spent a long time organizing my thoughts and what to say, and I didn't want to spend more time editing things down (especially since I'm not very good at that to begin with).
Personally, I disagree with a lot of this.
@@gleamingroses2952 You mean a lot of what I said or a lot of what JoPro said?
not trying to hit you with an "I ain't reading allat", but my eyes hurt trying to make a cohesive point out of this 😭
Ahhh a 10 Reasons Paper Mario Video? I’m in there
I like ttyd more BUT I agree woth all your points. Refreshing to hear this because a lot of these have popped in my head but no one seems to discuss. Star spirits vs crystal star and the nonlinear layouts are crucial
Second comment, what I ended up respectuflly disagreeing with in this video:
While I do think there are some things Paper Mario for the Nintendo 64 objectively does better than The Thousand-Year Door, a lot of things you brought up here feel more subjective and down to personal preference. Music and art style, I don't think there's much to be said about that one, both games are going for different styles particularly in the music department but I don't think that makes one better than the other, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks and all that (in particular, I'd have to disagree on the boss fight themes, I prefer TTYD's boss fights over PM64's, I remember being obsessed with Lord Crump's boss music as a teen in particular). The Star Spirits vs. Crystal Stars thing, though, I feel like it doesn't quite go without saying as you claim. I mean, yeah, the Star Spirits are "characters", but most of them don't really do much and barely get any characterization. Besides, only Eldstar, Skolar, and Misstar do anything outside of being captured and waiting to be rescued, then joining together to help Mario at the very end. At least with Crystal Stars, not only is there no expectation of them being anything more than magical MacGuffins, the game has a bit of fun with what exactly they are, basically being created by the Shadow Queen but not being inherently good or evil in and of themselves. In particular I like how Grubba uses one of them for his own purposes, completely unrelated to the X-Nauts or the Shadow Queen. That's another thing I disagree with, tying all the bosses back to Bowser in PM64, while it does make sense in terms of the game's story, what with all the bosses being given things in exchange for guarding the Star Spirits, it also kind of limits the scope of Mario's world, like all of these bosses just so happen to work for Bowser. And I can see bosses like the Koopa Bros. and General Guy and the Shy Guy Army already being affiliated with Bowser, but I've seen first-time players outright disappointed that Tutankoopa turned out to be Bowser's minion. And that's to say nothing of bosses like the Crystal King who are wholly unique and new bosses whose association with Bowser is unclear aside from agreeing to guard the Star Spirit. By contrast, I love that not all the bosses are connected to the X-Nauts or the Shadow Queen, because really, why the Crystal Stars are where they are by the time Mario got his hands on the magic map have a number of different reasons behind them, whether they were specifically placed there a thousand years ago, or someone found them and took them for themselves. It makes the world Mario lives in feel that much more bigger and lived in, knowing that not everything is completely connected (though I will say, Hooktail IS connected to the Shadow Queen, in that she was one of her pets along with Gloomtail and Bonetail, just so you know). Admittedly it doesn't feel as "personal" as taking on Bowser's army in PM64, but then again, Mario always takes on Bowser's army, and while I like this take on the traditional "Mario fights Bowser" formula, what makes TTYD appealing, to me at least, is that it goes outside the norm for Mario, it takes Mario out of the Mushroom Kingdom and has him explore an unfamiliar land, meeting strange and unique characters, and do things you normally wouldn't expect out of a Mario game. This kind of ties in to the "charm" and "vibe" talk you briefly brought up but didn't go that much into, but the first Paper Mario and TTYD have very different vibes going for them: Paper Mario 64 is a very charming game, it's familiar and basically expands on stuff we all know from Mario's world, plus the story of restoring the power to grant wishes (admittedly borrowed from Super Mario RPG) has a very storybook feel to it that makes the whole experience feel very cozy. It really helps to emphasis this game's Japanese title, "Mario Story", because this really does feel like the story of how Mario took on Bowser and defeated him, something we've seen him do many times before, but here is where the emphasis the story behind it. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, by contrast, has a different kind of "charm". Yes, the pop-up book look is all very well done, but if there's one thing that stuck with me about this game over the years, it's not the paper aesthetic or any of that, it's just how... different the story, setting, and characters were compared to normal Mario games. Ancient legends, seedy locations, strange characters (and strange character designs), scandalous and dark moments, there are so many things in this game, looking back on it, that make me shocked that they ever got away with, ESPECIALLY given how much Nintendo sanitized and homogenized Mario over the years. I'm not even trying saying that all Mario games, RPG or otherwise, need to be like TTYD, just that variety and taking risks is important, and spin-off titles are a good way to do do something with an established proper that you otherwise wouldn't get to do. This is why the remake (and Super Mario RPG's remake) feels so important to me, it signals, to me at least, that Nintendo is willing to take Mario to weird and unique places again with his spin-offs. So even if there are things in TTYD that I don't like, and even if it has a lot of flaws that I've come to notice over the years, I still respect the heck out of this game for daring to go to some unexpected and strange places, and that is the biggest factor for why it's one of my favorite games of all time, as well as being one of the two biggest contributing factors for why I prefer it over the original Paper Mario (the other being the expanded gameplay mechanics, in case you were wondering).
You summarized a lot of good counter arguments to the video in a nice way. I personally resonate more with the original Paper Mario but a lot of that comes from my love and nostalgia for the game. I personally love that each game goes for different things in story and vibe. If I want cozy I play the original, if I want something wacky and weird I play TTYD and Super. I’m just stoked that TTYD is getting recognition in a remake that brings hope for more games in that style after two decades of changing the series’s direction.
TTYD has incredible storytelling and some improved battle mechanics, but at the end of the day, I enjoy coming back to PM64 so much more. The spin-dashing and dialogue skipping make replays a breeze, and the level design is so much better. The prologue of PM64 can be a little slow, but it doesn't impede my enjoyment, and I don't dread any of the chapters. With TTYD replays, however, I always dread the backtracking of the later chapters. I especially hate the part between chapters five and six where you have to go back to Keelhaul Key and watch Frankie tell Francesca that he loves her ONE HUNDRED TIMES with no option to skip or fast forward the dialogue. On the first playthrough, it's kind of funny, but on replays, it's just annoying. Will I still replay TTYD a billion more times? Sure. But I just have so much more fun replaying PM64.
pm64 has no boss rematches
I played Paper Mario 64 after TTYD, one of the thing that impressed me the most is how many ideas were created by 64, for example it has not one but multiple duplighosts and the whole idea is from 64. So TTYD had a good base to work with, even if I prefere way more TTYD, 64 definitly have the ideas creation going for it
Fellow Jo here who thought no one else felt the same about PM64.
My biggest thing as to why I say I like PM64 over TTYD is that 64 feels like a Mario RPG, where TTYD feels like any RPG. That is partially the point of TTYD that Mario isn't the well-known hero like in the Mushroom Kingdom, but because of it, there is almost a weird disconnect.
And with it being on the GameCube, they were really trying to show just how powerful the system was at the time, that they overdesigned a bit to show it off. I think for the stories they were telling, it works, but even other Mario games of its time stayed more on the simple side comparatively.
Your point on the music though, is spot on with me. It's got such a charm that I can listen to so many of the songs out of context. I really only go for like Glitzpits, Rawk Hawk, and Cortez's battle music with TTYD.
I love both games to death. They are crucial parts of my youth and games me and my siblings would even play together. But I wouldn't have my love for video games without PM64.
honestly i prefer ttyd, but I still agree with pretty much all of your points
There is badge stacking available in PM64. Maybe not t the same degree. But it’s there. The higher cap for the stats in TTYD just gives more versatility. If you don’t like stacking, don’t. No one is forcing you.
You say that TTYD has very linear hallways but I just played PM64 like last week and I was surprised at how Linear it was.
Chapter 2 is basically you moving right until you reach the outpost, meeting Mousetafa (which we totally did legit by the way, no one looks that up), and then go to the dungeon by following the beeps. It seems more open but I didn't felt it was too dynamic.
The entire chapter 3, is also a glorified hallway with a short detour in the boo mansion which is a pretty nice non-combat area. Tubba Blubba's castle is insanely linear, though, as there's really only one path.
Chapter 4 Toy box is just you entering the toybox, going down one of two hallways, finding a something to bring back to Toad Town, which in turn lets you proceed to another set of hallways with keys at the end until you reach the boss.
Chapter 5 I'll give you it's not explicitly linear but it's also not open as there's areas you have to do first in order to proceed.
Chapter 6 is extremely linear. It's just 6 hallways that you have to do in order one after the other.
Chapter 7 is a bit less linear but outside of the murder mystery, which happens at the very beginning, you just go to thw right to starborn valley, return for a bucket, and open the path to the castle which is moving right. The crystal castle has a fun gimmick but it itself is also pretty linear with one clear cut order and path intended for you to take.
Overall I think it's just as linear and open as TTYD in terms of level design. The thing is that it's a lot shorter so it doesn't feel tedious. The whole game is pretty short which is a good thing all things considered, it's hard to find a JRPG as replayable as it is.
Linear design isn’t inherently inferior or superior to non linear design it’s just different. Like comparing super Metroid to metroid dread. Is one designed better then the other? Ok that’s a horrible example but you get what I’m saying
To be quite honest...strangely I don't like Paper Mario 2 all that much, but I like Paper Mario 1 all the more, and I have only played Paper Mario 1 up to chapter 2 while I have completed Paper Mario 2. I just noticed some flaws that Paper Mario 2 has, such as the well-known backtracking in the game and long loading times when entering a new area in Rogueport for example. Also I found Paper Mario 2 rather easy, especially with the addition of special attacks that use Star Energy provided by the audience. I could almost spam Earthquakes that use 2 units of Star Energy and can deal maximum damage of 6 to every enemy, regardless of their defense. Airborne enemies could also be hit if an Earthquake dealt enough damage and reached the airborne enemies as well.
I loved the oinks pen... Yes you lose more money than any individual items are worth but it was more of a pet mechanic than anything else...
You made some great points. I'll bear them in mind when I play remake. I can say though, I very recently played through 64 again, and it holds up tremendously well. Game is absolutely outstanding. I've considered it in contention for my favourite game of all time alongside TTYD too, and I think I share your placing - I put 64 first mostly just based on personal taste, but I understand the art of games better nowadays, so it'll be nice to see what your observations here do to influence that positioning going into a playthrough of remake when it releases. That aside, great video man. 🙂👌
It also has a much more expansive modding scene! There are quite a few really fun fanmade mods/romhacks that make the experience feel completely fresh. I would recommend checking them out, it's honestly impressive. There's even one that ports the combat of ttyd over to 64 pretty much 1 to 1.
TTYD does have a modding scene but there's really only 2 mods that are really worth it, and one of them isn't finished yet.
Shared this vid with all the boys down at the shrimp farm, they’re still laughing, thanks for the content Champ
Lol
I think TTYD and PM64 both have parts the other is missing. TTYD has a better battle system, character writing, and overall plot whereas PM64 has a more cohesive and expansive world, a lot of hidden secrets that encourages exploration, better puzzle design, and better environmental design (Bow's mansion sticks out as THE foremost example of all of these at their best). If Nintendo can just marry these two, we'd have THE Perfect Paper Mario Game.
Although TTYD does a few things better, I've always preferred the original. I think that for a lot of people, their preference comes down to which one they played first. PM64 came out late in the system's life cycle and so it's possible that a lot of people missed its original release, played TTYD first, and then finally played PM64 when it released on Wii Virtual Console or something.
Paper Mario 64 is so good,I'm able to enjoy it at 15 FPS
IT RUNS AT 15FPS
Since you love PM64 and TTYD, what is your opinion on Bug Fables?
I liked it a lot, but wasn't super in love with it or anything. Like it's better than many of the recent Paper Mario games but nowhere near the originals for me. The controls were kinda annoying too.
@@JoProGaming understood. Thanks for responding!
I can agree on this pm64 needs a remake while I wish ttyd got a remaster instead of a remake then a remaster they don’t have to really change anything or add stuff to make it easier when it probably won’t make stuff easier.
peanut 3423 (or alex rochon) put it really well that i also think that TTYD was kinda riffing on Final Fantasy in more than a few places
Final comment, on the subject of a Paper Mario 64 remake:
As I'd love a remake of the original Paper Mario, especially if they added stuff like TTYD's mechanics, a post-game, and more challenges like at the Dojo and it's own Pit of 100 Trials, I feel that's a lot less likely now that we're getting a remake of TTYD, 4 years after the release of The Origami King, which itself came out 4 years after Color Splash. It feels like if they were going to remake the first game, it'll take just as long, and not only do I feel Nintendo and Intelligent Systems would rather make a fully new installment after this one, I feel like most fans would rather see that as well as opposed to another remake. As for an HD port... well, Paper Mario is already available to play through Nintendo Switch Online in HD, so we kind of already have an HD port. I'd say it being on NSO means we probably won't get a remake of that game, but then again Link's Awakening is also available on NSO even though it got a remake, so who even knows what Nintendo's line of thinking is with that kind of thing. I do think you actually made a fair point about remaking PM64 vs. remaking TTYD, though, in that there's only so much you can "fix" when it comes to the flaws baked in to that game's level design. Compared to that, remaking PM64 is basically just improving what was already there. In retrospect, I can't help but feel like an opportunity was missed here... Oh well.
I think that because of Paper Mario 64 already been on Switch, I am happy they remade TTYD, because I prefer playing on HD portable mode than on the TV on Wii as I did some years ago, and I can already do that with the original, so... But I want they to remake PM64 someday, and that the next new Paper Mario is on the same world as these 2 games
I prefer n64 paper mario over thousand year door i love the music and sprite style and gameplay more and plus its cozier in comparason. N64 paper mario is the game that deserved a remake the most
Nice video. I feel I fall in a similar camp of enjoying 64 just a little more. So its always nice to find company.
All the talk at the end of adding things on to 64 to cover its shortcomings reminds me of a mod I got into called Paper Mario TTYD-64. It basically takes all the mechanics from Thousand Year Door and puts them into 64.
Might be worth looking into if you enjoy the maps and story of 64 but wish it played out more like Thousand Year Door.
I’ve always believed that TTYD had the much higher highs, but much much lower lows. The original on the other hand is a much more consistent good experience.
Thanks for the fantastic video Jopro, so nice to see someone defend and say good things about the original Paper Mario ! Like you l definitely enjoyed it more than Thousand Year Old Door, and a little surprise Nintendo didn’t make a remake of this game first before TTYD, and like you l agree Nintendo at some point will remake this game, l hope if they do that they don’t use the TTYD engine and try to make it look more like the original but with updated graphics ! Can’t wait to see more Paper Mario videos this month !
Why do we have to pit two queens against eachother lmao
I completely agree with your take on this. I love TTYD but I liked 64 better and wish it was being remade as well. Dry Dry Desert was my favorite area.
Story, pacing, atmosphere, world design, bosses -> it's a wash for the first game. Bowser and Peach sections way better too (god Tek is so boring).
Love both but the first has another point on its belt over TTYD.
I prefer the more interesting characters locations more interactive battles and a more interesting story than bowser kidnapped peach stop him. That’s why I like ttyd better. But again both do things better than the other. I think it’s being dishonest to say there aren’t thing ttyd does better and things 64 does better whether which you prefer.
Also TTYD relies more on plot twists and story events than it does on your progression through the adventure. Like there are hardly any fulfilling or interesting dungeons that lead up to the chapter endings. PM64 paces both it's overworld and combat gameplay perfectly, it feels like the slightly bigger adventure
@@lightninja4795 I like the way Bowser is presented in PM64 better. He is comical like he is in SMRPG, but he is also a legitimate threat. Bowser in TTYD is comic relief filler and doesn't affect the game at all until appearing as the surprise penultimate final boss.
They're both great for different reasons but this remake makes me realize there's less replayability in TTYD than 64 (the chapters are not as exciting upon replay compared to 64). I just really enjoy the environment and charm from 64 and less linear levels!
Great video dude as you said 64 and ttyd both do things better than the others i do think what ttyd loses from 64 is made up for in other areas like you mentioned more interesting partners more battle mechanics etc. Nice to see different opinions even though we don’t agree.
I know I'm speaking totally from nostalgia here, but the first Paper Mario will always be the best to one to me. I grew up with both games, I played them as a kid, but I remember playing through the first game together with my dad and my sister, it was so much fun for us, and we have so many great memories with it. I acknowlege that Thousand Year Door added so much more to what the first game established and is really the full realization of the first game's concept, I mean, the story, the lore, the battle system, the badges, the side quests, the post game, content, it is objectively a bigger and more interesting game, but I still enjoy the first one more. Thousand Year Door really does a great job of flipping the script by putting Mario in an unfamiliar location; Rogueport isn't like the Mushroom Kingdom, it's sketchy, dingy and crime-ridden, there aren't really any friendly faces, Mario's not known as the hero that he is back at home, but he still helps so many people everywhere he goes and inspires hope in everyone he meets. Each chapter tells it's own unique little story and has you meet so many fun, memorable characters that accompany you on your journey, it really tells an interesting story that's so different from anything else in the Mario franchise. Paper Mario 64 still sticks out to me though, I feel like it's the one game that actually takes the typical "Bowser kidnaps Peach, Mario has to save her" convention and turns it into an actual story, rather than brushing it off as bland and unisnteresting and trying to do something different like Mario RPG. I mean, Bowser and Peach actually have definitive character traits in this one, sure Mario RPG kind of gave them personalities, but Paper Mario perfected them, it certainly did a better job than RPG at making the Mushroom Kingdom feel like a living, breathing world, especially with locales like Toad Town, and the fact that there are Goombas, Koopas, Boos and other characters that aren't just enemies, they're actual characters with little communities. I don't even really play RPGs, I always thought they were too complicated when I was a kid, which kept me from playing other classic games like Final Fantasy 7, but I feel like Paper Mario successfully simplified the needlesly complicated battle systems and overblown number values, made them easier to understand, and made them more interesting and interactive with action commands. I think it's so cool that TTYD is being remade, it looks beautiful, and I still love it, but the original is still special to me, and I hope it gets remade too someday.
I love this! Thanks for sharing. :)
Solid points. I actually like the level cap though
As a TTYD die hard (but also a fan of the OG), I came into this video ready to hate-watch thinking it was just rage bait. The first two points you raise are things that haven’t crossed my mind before, and you’re absolutely right about them both. It’ll be hard to un-see the hallway design you’re referencing on future playthroughs. Most of your other points are good too, though the audio one I don’t quite agree with. For me, TTYD’s world music is more memorable and fits the environments so well. I can’t really recall a boss theme from either game though. While I can appreciate the art style of the original, I love how much of a step forward TTYD feels in every aspect, visually. Both games have their wins and losses and they’re both incredible in their own right. A 64 remake is definitely welcomed, hopefully TTYD on switch does well enough to convince them to do it.
I'm glad you can see both sides of the discussion, thanks for watching!
I like the points you make. I see things from the perspective of someone that played ttyd first and 64 second.
When I first saw the star spirits, I was like "oh cool, its the guys from mario party 5" 😂.
I like the idea that every boss is connected to Bowser. But i like the perspective of ttyd where every party is racing to find the treasure, instead of all the stars being protected by 1 larger entity.
I also like how Hooktail and her brothers are echoed boss fights, but they are all so unique in their design and attacks compared to each other. It serves as extra substance to an already chock full cast of great characters.
I also have always loved Lord Crump as the comedy relief mini boss, and I think running into him, Doopliss, Dupree, the three sisters, and the Piantas a few times throughout the story makes Mario's journey feel more personal, and makes the world feel more lived in.
I also think the Magnus Von Grapple theme slaps, but even moreso now in the remake. Its always cool to see a returning boss get revenge. Lets not forget about Bowsers second battle theme, Rawk Hawk, Dooplisses intro music, The Glitzville OG theme.. man
I don’t understand the badge critique on ttyd. Sure if you are farming then you can stack a lot of badges but if you play the game casually and level everything evenly you will have around 30-35 badge only slightly more than paper Mario’s max badge cap at 30.
I play ttyd casually all the time and I never have over 35 Bp when leveling everything evenly. Now if you do farm then yeah but you can also just farm in 64 to get max badge points so I don’t get that point. I only understand this point if you mean that you never invest into hp and fp then I understand what you mean but that also makes you die to almost everything in 1 hit in the late game. So not really.
There are literal hp and FP plus badges so you never have to invest in HP and FP. His critiques are spot on and its much easier to get broken badges in TTYD thanks to duplicates now existing far more that can be infinitely obtained unlike the badges you got in 64 and that being all you got. With all that said neither game is balanced well but 64 is much less broken than TTYD. You don't need HP and FP for TTYD and 64. Also Yoshidude is the most broken partner in paper mario existence. You only need 15 BP and to be in chapter 3 to break TTYD. Chapter 3 opens up the casino which allows you to gamble and start a pyramid scheme that allows you to convert coins into pianta coins which can then be traded for Last stand stacking and power rush stacking. Compare that to the finite amounts of stuff like this including things like pretty lucky which almost every badge in TTYD is farmable thanks to Ms. Mowz. Even without farming the game gives you so much broken tools in comparison to 64 with a much larger max item inventory.
@@dave9515 Fp and hp badges exist in paper mario 64 too? I think farming shows that you have to go out of your way to make yourself op which that can be applied to rpgs in general. Of course if you farm you will be overpowered. Yeah ttyd has multiple hp plus and fp plus. Paper 64 also has 3 fp plus. Two in the forest and one at the shop. There is also a hp plus at Koopa bros fortress and also in the shop. I will give you this I think the bp should have been capped at 30 in ttyd instead of 99. I will say that I do like having 99 bp also because it allows you to customize the game way more than 64. You can make challenge runs or make yourself overpowered through farming and just watching everything which can be funny. Overall you bring up the point of farming which can be applied to rpgs in general and the fact that in ttyd you have to farm to become overpowered and it’s not from just natural game progression is good game design.
Again both games can be broken. You can find videos of people destroying bosses in 64 in a couple of seconds with badge set ups. While ttyd can be broken much easier if you go out of your way to do it which why would you go out of your way to make the game easier this is not an exclusive problem to ttyd.
Here are the things each game does better than the other
Less hallway design
Less backtracking (Does not mean there is no backtracking in 64. The two biggest pointers are shys guys toy box and flower fields.)
Badge limit
Star sprites over crystal stars
More interconnected world
Ttyd
More fleshed out battle system
More interesting story with unique villains
More interesting partners
More interesting hub
End game content
Partners can use items and switch positions in battle to take damage.
Action commands from beginning
Paper Mario 64 is my second favorite paper mario game besides ttyd. Shoutout to paper mario ttyd 64 mod that adds ttyd mechanics into 64. Overall what ttyd loses from the first game I feel is made up for in the areas it gained. Great talk and being civil about this.
@@lightninja4795 I agree and acknowledged 64 has balance issues as well. I also undertand TTYD has better options for challenge runs. Used to be a superguard hater but with parries common in action games i realized superguards are that for paper mario so my stance has changed on that recently. TTYD has its ups but i think i like 64 for its consistency more. Also on teh topic of partners they always seem to outshine mario in both 64 and TTYD. Also yeah TTYD isn't the only game out there you can break at the start. Both are great games like you said and i hope i didn't come off as rude or anything. My favorite experience with paper mario is the mods as well like TTYD64, Masterquest and i have a feeling hero mode gonna be my favorite way to experience PM combat. IDK but Reed is cooking with his mod for TTYD. Now if you want to know what i meant by consistency well the pacing of 64 is much more consistent imo with its chapter structures and i really like how after a chapter ends and peach segment you can go straight to the next area usually while having to revisit the TYD really makes replays a drag in TTYD and i would enjoy TTYD much more if after colecting one star you could go to the next area without having to watch the cutscene with the map over and over again. Also if there was a shortcut from twilight town to creepy steeple among other QOL changes to greatly reduce backtracking which seems to not have been done in the "remake" of TTYD. For me the lows and backtracking of TTYD make me enjoy 64 much more nowadays. I also love how 64 has a rogue gallery. Sorry for the very late response btw. Been replaying Tales of Berseria. Great action game.
@@dave9515 Hey no problem good discussions. Again to me the things ttyd has over 64 make up the for the things it does worse. Yes I agree with you that 64 is a more consistency than ttyd also they can fix the backtracking in the ttyd remake by adding pipes from creepy steeple to twilight town and from flurry’s house to the entrance of boggle woods. I would make you travel from creepy steeple and twilight town twice but after that a pipe unlocks that allows you to warp to creepy steeple. I think they might be doing that because I thought I saw a new pipe added in hook-tails castle could be wrong. Like I said I do think paper mario 64 is hands down the second best paper mario game at worst and it is more consistent but again like I said earlier I think ttyd makes up for its lower lows with higher highs. Maybe it’s because I replay the game so much that I’m used to the backtracking that it does not bother me. Yeah you’re fine dude about taking a while to respond.
We can at least agree on one thing 64 and ttyd better than sticker star lol
Just a curios question if they do add more pipes within the chapters which they might considering Nintendo said they want to improve the backtracking. Like a pipe from creepy steeple and twilight town that unlocks after 2 trips same thing with flurry’s house and boggle woods would ttyd be on the same level as 64 since by your comment it seems like the backtracking is your biggest issue which that is commonly sited as ttyd biggest flaw.
Excited to see your response. Think Nintendo remaster paper mario 64 would be great.
@@lightninja4795 If they fixed those things then yeah i probably would think TTYD is the better package overall. After all like you said the backtracking is what bugs me the most if i am being honest. If that got fixed i would probably even think TTYD is the better game at that point but still have a very soft spot for 64 cause it was my first paper mario game as a kid so due to high amounts of nostalgia i would personally have them both in goat tier for ranking them.
I agree! They’re both amazing games, and there are things I prefer about TTYD, but overall I do slightly prefer the first Paper Mario. Hopefully the new TTYD will sell well and they’ll also remake the first.
Overworld Traversal Compared
PM 64
Walk - Koopa Bros Fortress
Train - Dry Dry Desert
Walk - Boo's Mansion
Warp - Shy Guy's Toy Box
Boat - Lavalava Island
Warp - Flower Fields
Warp - Shiver City
PM TTYD
Warp - Petal Meadows
Warp - Boggly Woods
Blimp - Glitzville
Warp - Twilight Town
Boat - Keelhaul Key
Train - Poshley Heights
Warp - Fahr Outpost
Exactly! And at least with shy guy toybox and flower fields the warp isn't with a pipe. So they count but only partially imo.
I don't get why they couldn't design the game so you walk to Petal Meadows ya know? Makes the game feel rather disconnected.
@@JoProGaming Petal Meadows definitely was weak sauce. It might have been a late addition to the game.
While 64 has two chapters connected within walking distance, the other locations aren't really that different than how you access TTYD areas. And if you count Prologues and chapter 8 it also doesn't change much. It's really just a marginal difference.
The more freedom and options TTYD gives you oddly makes the first game feel a bit more focused.
There is no fault with your arguments good sir. I can only hope for a remake someday and a true squeal to TTYD
There's a lot i agree with you on in regard to this list, but i think the only one i would really disagree with is about toad town. I think rogue port despite being smaller is way more interesting and you also have the underground which expand it a little a more. But they're both good enough games that feel different so that usually when i play one i immediately want to play the other lol
1. Eldstar after defeating Koopa Bros in the Koopa Bros Fortress at Chapter 1
Refresh
2. Mamar after defeating Tutankoopa in Dry Dry Ruins at Chapter 2
Lullaby
4. Skolar after defeating Tubba Blubba in Gusty Gulch at Chapter 3
Star Storm
5. Muskular after defeating General Guy in Shy Guy's Toy Box at Chapter 4
Chill Out
6. Misstar after defeating Lava Piranha in Mt. Lavalava at Chapter 5
Smooch
6. Klevar after defeating Huff N. Puff in Flower Fields at Chapter 6
Time Out
7. Kalmar after defeating Crystal King in Crystal Palace at Chapter 7
Up & Away
As much as i like both games, i still think ttyd is better than 64 as ttyd is one of if not my all time favorite paper mario game and my all time favorite turn based rpg game and the fact that it got a remake for the switch makes me love ttyd even more
This game feels more connected, more planning when entering battles whereas ttyd feels more brute force. The music sticks out more in my opinion, and the characters feel more fleshed out. Ttyd has a more darker tone that is fine but its also a more disconnected world so at times can be very tedious. I like both games just think 64 is the better of the two in terms of memorability. I think ttyd is too cryptic to new players and a lot more punishing at times.
I would love a 64 and super paper Mario remake. The first 3 games are so fantastic