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Ive been collecting for over 50 years and never heard collectors call the MJ 84 a RC card untill the last 5-10 years. One of the main reason is because Star Cards was not distributed in all states or Canada. It has been always known for a card to be considered a RC it must be a licensed product and available to everyone in all states and canada.
Thanks for the feedback Blair, but I've heard different stories about long time collectors and which card was interpreted as the RC. Technically, while the Star cards were very limited in comparison to Fleer and came in team bags, they were available for mail order nationwide via large publications of the time. Demand for them was just low in the 80s
All the new money, investiboi sneakerdickheads have come in and think they can just change the rules. Maybe once those of us that collected pre-Covid die off, they’ll get their way. These were the same people pumping crypto and NBA Top Shit.
The fact that these weren’t pack pulled has always made it less desirable to me. You just paid for a Jordan if you wanted one back in the day, and it looks cheap IMO. At the end of the day, it is a team set card with low eye appeal and quality. Not saying I wouldn’t take one for free, I just think it hits different than a pack pulled Jordan rookie. Something about having to chase a card, versus simply buying a team set and being guaranteed the card. .
Not very important that it came in randomized packs. Packs don't make a basketball card as its just a way to distribute. Packs are fun for sure but thats it. Check out the base set for STAR in 1984 - its extremely comprehensive and more like Topps than Fleer was.
@@80sStarBasketball completely disagree. Topps now and panini instant prove that now. Even if it is the very first auto/card of a player. It isn’t the same as pack pulled. Pack pulled means so much in the hobby. I don’t expect you to agree, your name is literally star basketball
@High_Speed_Card_Chase so you are saying the very first rookie card is the most important? Let’s look at a modern example. Last year. Josh Jung’s first topps rookie card was in a Rangers team set. Came out before his series 2 rookie. Holds next to no value
@@ryanra44 I grew up on Fleer. Bought 1986 Fleer basketball packs the year they were out. Had fleer forever. Only in the last 8 months have I gotten into Star. Something never seemed correct with the 2 years of stats on the back of the 1986 Fleer when there was a licensed NBA card of Jordan from a Base set that year (the 101). When I did the research like Dustin did it was obvious - also the fact PSA and Beckett have now changed stance have help solidified the conclusion that I came too. Pack pulled means something in the hobby - but its not the factor that makes it a legitimate licensed card.
@@ryanra44 I would not say that the rookie card has to be most important. What is being said that the 1986 Fleer is not the rookie card is all. The 1986 Fleer is easily the most popular/iconic and there is alot of em.
Jordan rookie year is 1984 not 1986. Fleer is his 3rd year card. You all been shelling out that type of dough for a 3rd year Jordan. Star NBA is his only rookie card.
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb I agree. While the Star is the true rookie, it is ugly; The 1986 Fleer, while a nice image, is too plentiful. Therefore, I refuse to buy either one.
@@vintagecollector5340 the 86 Fleer MJ (high grade) will continue to appreciate. In the early/mid 90’s they said that the 52 Mantle wouldn’t go any higher. Too many made, older collectors dying off, etc. That card however has continued to increase every passing decade. A mint 86 Fleer Jordan really isn’t that abundant. 15k will seem like a bargain in a few decades
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb Yeah, but that's just artificial scarcity. Numerical grade never dictates value on a truly rare collectible. I have (early career) original Jordan photos that are much rarer than both the Fleer and Star.
@@vintagecollector5340 PSA numbers don’t tell the whole story but there aren’t that many perfect examples out there. PSA has logged a few hundred, BGS a few hundred, 30 SGC. Many of those were crossed so the actual number between the 3 companies is probably around 500. Upon close examination I’d expect that probably a good 50 or so would be discounted due to overlooked flaws. I’ve seen a couple gem copies with questionable centering. So, that leaves slightly less than 500. Are many more out there yet to be graded? Are there some 9’s that should have been 10. Sure. But I don’t think the actual number would ever be over 1,000. I won’t call that scarce, or rare, but that is pretty limited. And value is a very simple product of supply and demand. The supply will never satisfy the demand. Therefore the value will only go up. It’s like the 52 Mantle that nobody thought would/could go much higher. In the early 90’s I knew someone who had a nice copy and he sold it for around 10k. They thought it had peaked and that a piece of cardboard could never go much higher. Today that card would be worth six figures. The Jordan is the iconic equivalent from our generation and it will continue to defy any logic. I see the gem mint version being worth over a million dollars in a few decades.
Outside of MJ, Star Company also had the true rookie cards of the following…James Worthy, Isiah Thomas, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing and more.
This will only happen in someone who can pump and dump them is sitting on a pile of Griffey’s. 84 star is a poorly made card that’s been reprinted multiple times. It’s a joke.
Yep - the 101 is the RC. PSA changed to say the Star is the RC, Beckett October 2022 issue changed stance, more facts have come out over the last few years to help with the misinformation. After 40 years the 80s basketball market has changed in the last 2 years. Thanks for throwing out facts and correct information Dustin. What's funny is I too think this is actually very easy to determine as there is ONE card from 1984. I hope you get a 101!
Doesn't matter. The 86 Fleer card is iconic and will always keep its place in the hobby. It's like arguing about the 52 Topps Mantle not being his true rookie. Who cares? It's 52 Topps!
@@ammocan2796 you’re in the minority on this one. Most people consider the 86 Fleer the rookie. You can call of us wrong but that makes you sound a bit foolish.
Star was not widely distributed, so can't be a rookie card. It must be licensed product and available to everyone in all states and Canada. Star was not
And must be widely distributed everywhere and this set was not. Star was not available in many states or Canada. So in my 55 years of collecting it was never considered a Rookie card. Collectors in the last 5 to 10 years started calling it that
I’ve been collecting since I was a kid, born in 86. It’s been long standing that the 86 card is his rookie card and the star card was reprinted by Star when Jordan got popular and that star wasn’t accepted as a viable option. Everybody can have their own opinion and it’s fine but the 86 fleer is a grail card for me not the 84 star. However as a Jordan fan, I would take either.
And for this very reason - you got misinformed and believed a rumor. The 84 Star was never reprinted. All the information is in Geoff Wilsons video with Steve Taft. check it out. Just facts.
So hypothetically let's say that there was not a pack pulled jordan card made until 1994 and that the only jordan card available was the 1984 star card. To all of the Fleer people, are you trying to then tell me that my hypothetical 1994 card would be considered his RC card when a licensed 1984 card was already made? I think not.
“I’m just giving my opinion” “Debate Over”. The simple fact is you aren’t the authority. That’s cool that you gave some facts but the same facts that you listed, “limited distribution”, “not pack pulled” are the exact reasons why both the 84 star and the 86 fleer are both considered his rookie cards. I also love that you mention Steve Taft because he has also stated the same thing. You may not agree with it but general consensus is that both are his rookie cards.
Titles and thumbnails are for internet marketing. I love both cards. I do believe there is only one true rookie card, but still have a ton of respect for the 86 fleer. Would love to own both
I noticed you couldn't give a crap what this means for other notable players like Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, etc. This video is all about Jordan, Jordan, Jordan, cause that's where the grift is.
No it’s just the reality that Jordan stifled the careers of all the other greats of the era. That’s what makes him the greatest. I own the Star Barkley and will own the Olajuwon at some point. Calling everything a grift is short sighted and missing the point of the video
So after all these years we are now going to recognize the 1984 Star as Jordan's rookie instead of the 1986 Fleer? How come then many still recognize the 1986 Fleer as his RC?
Because some people cannot or dont want to change.. even if new information or change is being presented. PSA and Beckett changing stance was huge news in the hobby for 80s basketball. Perception is the only thing keeping people considering the 86 Fleer as a RC- but that perception has been challenged. The 84 Star has always been his RC actually.
Great video Sports Card Dad! I’m enjoying the passionate conversations you’ve generated amongst the RUclips community from this debate. This is a debate that will continue with future generations which is a great thing for all the MJ fans out there.
The 84 Star Jordan is his true rookie, but Star cards have the worst photos. Thats why 86 Fleer will always be the grail rookie cards to so many collectors. That 86 Fleer Jordan photo is as iconic as you can get for a sports card. I noticed the same comparing early 80’s Donruss and Fleer Baseball to Topps Baseball cards. The early 80’s Donruss and Fleer Baseball design and photos are so bland.
You had the whole 83 set also. That was a great set and much more rare than the 84 because the 1st 5 sets were short printed because of quality control Issues. There were only 800 bags made of the 70 sixers Lakers and bucks, Only 600 made of the Celtics and only 400 made of the Dallas Mavericks. I believe the 5 by 7 Court king set came out before the 84 set so that could be considered Jordan's 1st card.
Beckett did make an annual price guide every year. 1 covered football basketball hockey and boxing. I have the 1 from 1987 Michael Jordan's Star company rookie is listed for $1 nd his 86 fleer is listed for .75 cents. The most expensive basketball card was Bill Russell's rookie card listed for $80. Wilt chamberlain's rookie card was listed for $30.
Bear poker. Your theory has many many holes in it Dustin. I’m not going to get into it here but I will say this. It is dangerous and irresponsible to try and rewrite hobby history. Secondly, we can not take today’s standards of a rookie card and apply them to the past. It was a different era and rookie card standards were different then. I was thinking about doing a response video but I like you too much. Tell Dave I said hi and nice try. 😂
I like you too Victor, but we don’t always have to agree. 👍 I will say using a word like ‘dangerous’ when debating a cardboard hobby topic is overly dramatic. We aren’t choosing whether or not to send troops into war.
@@TheSportsCardDad Thats fair but when we check comps for these cards we’re talking six figures. To devalue one or the other is indeed dangerous to the market. This is why a fair compromise is a*RC for both, indicating that these are debatable. Love ya man ☺️✌️🏼
disagree with you completely @true_rcs. It was a false narrative for the 86 fleer to begin with. PSA and Beckett have changed stance - might want to check why. Value has nothing to do with it - Dustin just throwing out facts. Might want to check yours. Perhaps you might just might look in the mirror and reassess. But im guessing value has to do with your decision.
@@true_rcs isnt about value ... just facts of what is a rookie card. Clearly value has biased your opinion and has sway. Dustin mentioned nothing of value - just true to what is a rookie card.
Thanks for making a video on this. I know a lot about this subject, and the only thing I think you got wrong was Steve Taft working with PSA as they started to grade these recently. From talking to Steve personally quite a bit, I believe he said that is not the case. They went at that on their own.
I enjoy watching when you do these types of videos, historical information. In the hobby it’s about demand, I compare it to the Mantle. Rookie is 51’ but every one prefers the 52’ Topps.
what a world we would live in if that every RC you wanted you just pulled off the rack in a team set, LOL. the only people calling these RCs are the ones who own them.
@@80sStarBasketball😂😂😂that explains alot.....you got skin in the game, so of course you're gonna pump the shit out of the card......but dudes spitting facts, the only people calling it his rookie card are the people who have one. The last few years isnt gonna change the fact that the hobby avoided that card like the plague for over 30 years. I hope for your sake you didnt drop too much on that trash card.
86 has and will always be the rookie. Jordan is not the only rookie that started in 84 that 86 fleer is their rookie card. Star being sold on SHN, nobody considers a shopping channel card to be legit, especially since Fraud Goldin pumped them back than. With the internet just starting in the 90s, the definition of “true” cards will change just due to people’s mental thinking changing. No way whoever grades Star cards now truely remembers what a “real” Star card is. Even in the 90s, I remember the 86 as the only true rookie.
The fact that people are still buying, the 1986 fleer much more often than the star tells me, the debate ISN'T over, regardless of your opinion on which is the true rookie.
There is about a 40 to 1 ratio of 1986 Fleer to the 101. That's why they are buying more.... there are a whole bunch more of 1986 Fleer by alot. Its actually a bad thing
would be interesting for your take on it @JunkWaxHero. With PSA's Nat Turner calling the 101 the true rookie card and grading it and the 2022 October issue of Beckett basically apologizing about STAR.... Seems a big change to a 40 year old debate. Now that the misinformation has cleared - changing how people collect their favorite decade of vintage basketball cards.
@@JunkWaxHero I agree on that... the 1986 Fleer photo is second to none IMO. Dont love the 101 photo either... but think of it this way - that photo kinda shows that he wasn't known as "Air" Jordan yet and was a true rookie. By the time the 1986 Fleer came out he was Air Jordan and the photo reflects how popular he was at that point.
RC card have traditionally been card with college stats only..., e.g there is no NB season, 1986 Fleer has never been a RC card because it has 3 nba seson stats on the back..., hence why i never bought it as rc card even though i got laughed at everywhere, and now that belief has come to fruition. Now people are trying to sell them asap to recoup as much value as they can before it flattens
I know people will get in their feels, but as I said in the video, I love the 86 fleer. It’s and iconic card that I want to own one day as well. It’s just not the RC
Hey there Dustin how you doing ? Man I really didn't think I was going to weigh in on this one but being that somebody else a few days back already mentioned it what the hell. you know it seems like most people I've encountered over a few decades seem to respect Dr Beckett and so if that's the case why not just let what he originally said stand. I mean that first decade very few people had an issue with it. And that's my 2 cent's beedy beedy beedy that's all folk's.
lol - I had several. sold them months ago. I think it will continue to slowly fall IMO - there were so many produced. I don't see a catalyst for any price increase with PSA and Beckett giving STAR the legitimacy recently.
@@80sStarBasketballThe best part for me is I don't need to sell mine or want to (not over-invested). I think you're wrong with regards to price decline over the long term. Time will tell, enjoy yr Star.
Sold mine. Figured there always available and I’ll get one down the road again for cheaper most likely. It’s a great card but I don’t see the value in it anymore considering the high pop count.
he just explained it in the video. The definition of Rookie is first year. There is only 1 licensed NBA trading card Base set card for Jordan that was Nationally distributed that year - the STAR #101.
Dustin - hope you were able to get that 101. Pretty big jump in price on the quality examples recently (check out RE auction results last night - 2 sales avg 30k for a PSA 7. thats over a 50% increase from a few months ago). Also noticed private transactions going up. Seems to me a trend established. Got my popcorn out ;)
The fact that the president of Star was a known charlatan to me makes his brand inauthentic. I personally wouldn't want any of his cards in my collection. As I look at the brand as fraudulent, I personally don't recognize the 1984 Star card as his rookie card. I don't own either, so I don't have a horse in the race. However, if I owned the 86 Fleer I would covet it. If I owned the 84 Star I would immediately put it up for auction.
The 1985 Star Jordan #117 is the second year Base set Jordan card. It is not a rookie. however very low pop count for it so would recommend getting it.
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb the total pop count of a Star 101 is almost half the 52 topps mantle. Almost 40 to 1 ratio of 86 fleer to star 101. Check the pop counts
They were not available nationwide...they were first distributed in the Teams Arenas...which means Chicago/Illinois had more of the jordans to begin with..then use an estimate of 5000 sets ...so thats 100 sets available per state...and who in the hell was mailing away for card sets back then except for shop owners which this stuff ended up filtering down to..to say this was available "Nationwide " or "To the average collector " is an absolute joke..these basement made cards are garbage and the only people that talk good about them are the ones that own the cards..
I absolutely agree with you on all accounts you had to be waste deep as a collector of all random crap to come across this card and I'm sure the ones who have them where shop owners and wierd coin and Antique collector hoarder types. this thing was a unicorn of a Novelty set ! The craziest part about it he is the very first player in the pack and at the top if he was not showcased with a slight buzz those packs would have hit the garbage cans nobody wanted the terribulls" set they wanted Celtics ,Lakers if anything! The ultimate miracle was this Random guy secured licensing rights !! First
Oh they were available nationwide. Maybe less people knew of them, but it speak to the overall demand of basketball cards during that time period. Low low demand
This is not a topic for discussion.. the 86 fleer is jordans rookie card… done deal based on rookie card standards.. please stop talking about this.. the star cards are very cool and I own a few star cards of jordan but by no means do I think its his rookie card…… and why ? because its NOT.. period...
@@TheSportsCardDad I’m not an expert…. but I know the basics… licensed, randomly pack pulled, nationally distributed, 1st card… there are prolly more but the star cards already dont 2 of those 4 requirements… not randomly pack pulled, they were in team bags and u bought the by the team… so cleary not random.. they were not nationally retail distributed… they were distruted at events and thru local card shops. So 2 clear violations of being a valid card as his rookie.. the 86 fleer is his rookie.. and yes.. the “hobby” created thru MANY years… Anyone in the hobby would agree with those rules… I do love the star cards tho.. like I said I have a few star jordan cards…. my fav is the USA Olympic team card...
I hope you did end up getting one shortly after making this video, because the prices have now gone to the moon where they should have always been. There are a lot of knuckleheads in the hobby, but they did finally catch on.
101 is NOT PACK PULLED! 101 looks CHEAP & IS LOW QUALITY! #57 Will ALWAYS represent MJ’s first card because it was actually PACK PULLED! No chase no fun! Getting a guaranteed MJ in a team bag is not what the hobby is about! Keep telling yourselves whatever makes you feel better but anyone could have bought that team bag and that along with the terrible photo spoils the card completely!
So the Mickey Mantle 1951 Bowman card is the first true rookie card?? That’s a debate too. I say the 1951 Bowman is and not the 1952 Topps. That’s the second year card. Kind of the same issue for what’s the true rookie card
@@ammocan2796 so when the industry/collectors, say the Fleer is Jordan‘s rookie card and the 1952 Topps is Mickey’s rookie card, they are wrong, right?
You said at the end.. the 84 star 101 is his rookie card…. you are wrong for sure.. i found u making that statement against all the hobby rules for rookie cards… I hope u retract that in another video as that was a VERRY WRONG statement to make.. it is not his rookie card in the hobby we love…
@@ammocan2796 No.. its not.. I own jordan star card 101 and 86 fleer.. 86 fleer is the rookie card to real hobby collectors and why its so much more important to know.. 4 major rules and some other minor.. lets just do 4 major.. 1. Random Packed Pulled 2. Nationaly distributed so all can get it equally 3. Licensed 4. First year card.. the 84 star 101 only has 2 of those.. it was not randomly distributed in packs… it was distributed to specific card shops and events.. thats not accepted.. and they were distributed as TEAM packs.. you could buy the Chicago team pack in a clear pack which certainly is not random.. So you people who say its his rookie card are newbies or just not part of the real hobby… not trying to be mean.. just trying to teach anyone who thinks the 84 star is the true jordan rookie card.. it is NOT...
The circumstances that led to Star releasing sets had everything to do with basketball and trading card history. There simply wasn’t widespread distribution, nor was there any basketballpacks to pull. For some, that mitigates the application of “rules” #1 and #2… Emerson said: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.” Is it foolish to claim a card produced two years later is more of a rookie card because distribution and randomization was conforming to “normal”circumstances? What if the circumstances actually tell a story about the failing popularity of the game and basketball sector of the hobby? I think reducing this particular debate to right or wrong misses something about the history of basketball cards. And, respectfully, I would say in this case, Emerson’s sentiment is relevant.
@@pleasurepoint that makes no sense… if u applied that to other rules or even laws it makes now sense.. here is an example on laws which apply as a law or rules… I did not know that this law/rule existed so I cannot be charged.. no, the law/rule is the bottom line.. it does not matter about the state of the situation… if that were the case it would be bending the rules…so your statement is finding a way to “bend” the rules… so yeah again I own both cards and by FAR with no doubt my 86 fleer is the rookie card...
There is a current player entering the GOAT conversion, who's True rookie card is 5 years older than most collectors realize. There will be debate videos about this card similar to the one's being made abouts and Is Michael Jordan's 1984 Star #101 vs his 1986 Fleer #57. Maybe you can make a video yourself ? The card in question was the the players first Professionally licensed, Nationally distributed, Randomly inserted in packs containing players from the whole professional leage which is the highest major league in the country. Additionally, the Flagship card print run is under 10K with it's parallels and promos cards produced in increasingly much lower numbers. The Player is Shohei Ohtani ! The country of Japan The card is produced by the BBM, (The Topps of Japan.) which remains the #1 Baseball card manufacturer in Japan. The 2013 BBM Shohei Ohtani #183 1st Version Flagship series Rookie card. A PSA 10 will cost you over $2K. With a print run this low it's still highly undervalued. Especially considering the 2018 Ohtani MLB print runs or the 2017 Mega Box print run. For perspective, the PSA 10 pop count of the 2017 Shohei Ohtani Mega Box base card is several times more than the PSA 10 pop count of All 2013 Shohei Ohtani #183 1st Version Flagship series (12 parallels & ptomos) combined. That's just one MLB card, Not including the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of 2018 MLB Shohei Ohtani Rookie cards.
You think collectors arent aware of japanese players having japanese cards? People figured that out 23 years ago when ichiro came to america. And like ichiro, his bbm japanese rookie as well as MLB rookie cards all technically count as rookie cards.
@johnwayne9828 Well Duke, I would think that Japanese players do know that they have Japanese cards just the same as American players know that they have American Baseball cards. Ichero opened the door, Shohei knocked it down after the WBC. The Flagship 183 1st Version Rookie cards jumped about 5X up until the injury. They are still Clearly undervalued compared to the Millions of MLB cards. With a around 10K base cards printed, they should be much higher. Over hallf of the Flagship parallels have PSA 10 pop counts of 11 or less. When these cards are recognized properly, they'll go to the moon. BBM is the Topps of Japan and in all their sets, only one 1/1 was printed. The 2013 #183 1st Version Blue Signature Facsimile. Imagine if Topps had only one Shohei Ohtani superfractor printed across all of their set ? Say a Bowman Chrome batting auto Superfractor and no other Superfractors. No Topps Chrome auto or none auto and so on. What would that Superfractor be worth ? That's what BBM has done with Shohei Ohtani years before the MLB sets. That cards should be the most sought-after Ohtani card in the world. Hardly anyone knows about it. Until the collectors in America are educated about this set and that card, and become a household norm among collectors the same as MLB cards, I'll maintain that it's like the 1984 Star Jordan 101 in the early 90s.
@@johnmccarthy9165 unfortunately, all you gotta do is look at ichiro to blow your logic out of the water.....his 93 bbm is still not his most valuable or sought after rookie card. It will always have a place in the hobby, but its not the hidden gem lottery ticket you think you've stumbled upon before anyone else.
@johnwayne9828 Actually, my argument is spot on. You're overlooking the point. Ichiro isn't the Michael Jordan of Baseball. He might equate to Patrick Ewing. Patrick Ewing is a terrific player, as is Ichiro. But Patrick Ewing isn't the GOAT of Basketball, Michael Jordan is. If Michael Jordan wasn't the GOAT, people wouldn't be debating 1984 Star vs 1986 Fleer nearly as much. Shohei Ohtani could become the GOAT of Baseball if he stays healthy. If he does become the GOAT of Baseball like a Babe Ruth or a juiced Bonds, people will debate his true Rookie card. Ichiro doesn't enter that conversation, Ewing doesn't enter the GOAT debate either. Michael Jordan does sit on top of the GOAT debate, and he raised interest in the 84 Star #101 because of it. If Shohei Ohtani stays healthy and productive, he too will sit on top of the GOAT debate, and he'll raise interest in the 2013 BBM 183 in the same way Michael Jordan affected the 84 Star set. Your argument assumes Ichiro is equal to Michael Jordan, which he isn't. Mine assumes Shohei Ohtani could become equal to Michael Jordan. If he does, then his 2013 BBM 183 will be like Michael Jordan's 1984 Star. People will debate the BBM 183 Flagship set vs MLB Flagship Rookie card sets.
@@johnmccarthy9165 I already told you, the hobby settled japanese players "true" rookies with ichiro......they have 2 rookies, a Japanese rookie card and an mlb rookie card. And to say ichiro is the Patrick Ewing to shoheis jordan, youre either 12, dont even watch baseball, or youre just slow. That's the biggest problem with you covid noobs, youd rather speculate than show respect to the established legends.
Dustin - I did a response and follow up video to your vid. Check it out if you have a sec. I also add other people in clips backing your assessment up.
@@TheSportsCardDad definitely such an interesting story with twists and turns over decades 😆! Star was the only game in town for such a groundbreaking year for the NBA
I don’t own either but Star was never a true basketball set. The 86 Fleer is his first official card. So if the Star is his RC then all those minor league baseball sets are true first cards…come on man give me a break. Star cards are junk.
@@TheSportsCardDad I get the license thing Dustin but the card needs to be pulled from box with packs from a major company. Not some hack printing cards from his garage. And the Star card is ugly the 86 has an Iconic image of MJ. Again I don’t own either but I have been a collector for over 45 years and no way Star cards are a legit company or cards. Just my opinion my friend.
@@4x4rubicon46 they absolutely are legitimate. thats the whole point of an NBA license set. The STAR set in some ways was alot more like Topps than Fleer. Very large and comprehensive of the NBA. Pack pulled argument has little weight for many reasons. been in the hobby for 40 years as well. Dustin just throwing out facts. PSA and Beckett changed their minds as well last 2 years.
That Nike promo card is awesome. The logo, the shoes, the Chicago skyline. It should be worth MILLIONS, especially in a PSA 8. Come on hobby fam, pump the Nike promo Jordan!! In a PSA 8 specifically!! 😁
That Star card is the equivalent of a Panini Instant card. Sure it existed first, if you're stuck in the third dimension and believe in "time". Those who are enlightened know the truth.
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Ive been collecting for over 50 years and never heard collectors call the MJ 84 a RC card untill the last 5-10 years. One of the main reason is because Star Cards was not distributed in all states or Canada. It has been always known for a card to be considered a RC it must be a licensed product and available to everyone in all states and canada.
Thanks for the feedback Blair, but I've heard different stories about long time collectors and which card was interpreted as the RC. Technically, while the Star cards were very limited in comparison to Fleer and came in team bags, they were available for mail order nationwide via large publications of the time. Demand for them was just low in the 80s
All the new money, investiboi sneakerdickheads have come in and think they can just change the rules. Maybe once those of us that collected pre-Covid die off, they’ll get their way.
These were the same people pumping crypto and NBA Top Shit.
The fact that these weren’t pack pulled has always made it less desirable to me. You just paid for a Jordan if you wanted one back in the day, and it looks cheap IMO. At the end of the day, it is a team set card with low eye appeal and quality. Not saying I wouldn’t take one for free, I just think it hits different than a pack pulled Jordan rookie. Something about having to chase a card, versus simply buying a team set and being guaranteed the card. .
Not very important that it came in randomized packs. Packs don't make a basketball card as its just a way to distribute. Packs are fun for sure but thats it. Check out the base set for STAR in 1984 - its extremely comprehensive and more like Topps than Fleer was.
@@80sStarBasketball completely disagree. Topps now and panini instant prove that now. Even if it is the very first auto/card of a player. It isn’t the same as pack pulled. Pack pulled means so much in the hobby. I don’t expect you to agree, your name is literally star basketball
@High_Speed_Card_Chase so you are saying the very first rookie card is the most important? Let’s look at a modern example. Last year. Josh Jung’s first topps rookie card was in a Rangers team set. Came out before his series 2 rookie. Holds next to no value
@@ryanra44 I grew up on Fleer. Bought 1986 Fleer basketball packs the year they were out. Had fleer forever. Only in the last 8 months have I gotten into Star. Something never seemed correct with the 2 years of stats on the back of the 1986 Fleer when there was a licensed NBA card of Jordan from a Base set that year (the 101). When I did the research like Dustin did it was obvious - also the fact PSA and Beckett have now changed stance have help solidified the conclusion that I came too. Pack pulled means something in the hobby - but its not the factor that makes it a legitimate licensed card.
@@ryanra44 I would not say that the rookie card has to be most important. What is being said that the 1986 Fleer is not the rookie card is all. The 1986 Fleer is easily the most popular/iconic and there is alot of em.
Jordan rookie year is 1984 not 1986. Fleer is his 3rd year card. You all been shelling out that type of dough for a 3rd year Jordan. Star NBA is his only rookie card.
Star is just so cheaply made and the photo is terrible
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb I agree. While the Star is the true rookie, it is ugly; The 1986 Fleer, while a nice image, is too plentiful. Therefore, I refuse to buy either one.
@@vintagecollector5340 the 86 Fleer MJ (high grade) will continue to appreciate. In the early/mid 90’s they said that the 52 Mantle wouldn’t go any higher. Too many made, older collectors dying off, etc. That card however has continued to increase every passing decade. A mint 86 Fleer Jordan really isn’t that abundant. 15k will seem like a bargain in a few decades
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb Yeah, but that's just artificial scarcity. Numerical grade never dictates value on a truly rare collectible. I have (early career) original Jordan photos that are much rarer than both the Fleer and Star.
@@vintagecollector5340 PSA numbers don’t tell the whole story but there aren’t that many perfect examples out there. PSA has logged a few hundred, BGS a few hundred, 30 SGC. Many of those were crossed so the actual number between the 3 companies is probably around 500. Upon close examination I’d expect that probably a good 50 or so would be discounted due to overlooked flaws. I’ve seen a couple gem copies with questionable centering. So, that leaves slightly less than 500. Are many more out there yet to be graded? Are there some 9’s that should have been 10. Sure. But I don’t think the actual number would ever be over 1,000. I won’t call that scarce, or rare, but that is pretty limited. And value is a very simple product of supply and demand. The supply will never satisfy the demand. Therefore the value will only go up. It’s like the 52 Mantle that nobody thought would/could go much higher. In the early 90’s I knew someone who had a nice copy and he sold it for around 10k. They thought it had peaked and that a piece of cardboard could never go much higher. Today that card would be worth six figures. The Jordan is the iconic equivalent from our generation and it will continue to defy any logic. I see the gem mint version being worth over a million dollars in a few decades.
Outside of MJ, Star Company also had the true rookie cards of the following…James Worthy, Isiah Thomas, Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley, John Stockton, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing and more.
I've always thought the 84 Star is MJs true rookie. Not that 3rd yr Fleer
Hi Dusty,
Here’s my current top 10 cards…
1. 86 Fleer MJ #57 RC BGS GEM MINT
2. 86 Fleer MJ #57 RC PSA 9 MINT
3. 54 Topps Hank Aaron SGC 7
4. 51 Bowman Willie Mays RC BVG 4.5
5. 01 Topps Traded Gold Pujols BGS Gem Mint
6. 64 Topps Pete Rose RC SGC 7
7. 80 Topps Bird Magic RC PSA 8
8. 55 Bowman Hank Aaron PSA 7
9. 17 Bowman Chrome Auto Refractor Acuna BGS 9.5
10. 81 Topps Montana RC PSA 9
😳
Dusty???????
@@TheBargainBoxer that’s the name of the channel host
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb Dustin is his name.
@@Concatenate ok, close enough 😀
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb Not close enough…..
Someone's trying to pump their bags🤣🤣
My bags filled with zero of either card?? lol
' I just can't wait, until the debate begins over the STAR Ken Griffey Jr. Cards.. '
This will only happen in someone who can pump and dump them is sitting on a pile of Griffey’s. 84 star is a poorly made card that’s been reprinted multiple times. It’s a joke.
Yep - the 101 is the RC. PSA changed to say the Star is the RC, Beckett October 2022 issue changed stance, more facts have come out over the last few years to help with the misinformation. After 40 years the 80s basketball market has changed in the last 2 years. Thanks for throwing out facts and correct information Dustin. What's funny is I too think this is actually very easy to determine as there is ONE card from 1984. I hope you get a 101!
I think 1985 Nike Promo should be real Micheal Jordan RC
@@Star-Collector70 Not part of an NBA Base set of trading cards.
@@80sStarBasketball still need consideration…. But agree to disagree
The Nike is way better looking than the Star
Doesn't matter. The 86 Fleer card is iconic and will always keep its place in the hobby. It's like arguing about the 52 Topps Mantle not being his true rookie. Who cares? It's 52 Topps!
Exactly!
@@ammocan2796 you’re in the minority on this one. Most people consider the 86 Fleer the rookie. You can call of us wrong but that makes you sound a bit foolish.
Crap. Oh well. I guess I’m going to have to burn the 1000 MJ Fleer (FLEEEEEEEEEER!!!) rookies…..
😂
1984 star is absolutely the true rookie and the much more rare rookie. You see 86s all day long but you rarely see 84 stars
86 over that Star 🗑️ any day!
Star was not widely distributed, so can't be a rookie card. It must be licensed product and available to everyone in all states and Canada. Star was not
Popularity isn’t what makes a Rookie card a Rookie card. It’s the first card released from an actual licensed and branded company. That solves it
But popularity usually means higher value. You can have the 51 Bowman Mantle, bro, I'll take the 52 Topps Mantle all day.
star was a licensed company
And must be widely distributed everywhere and this set was not. Star was not available in many states or Canada. So in my 55 years of collecting it was never considered a Rookie card. Collectors in the last 5 to 10 years started calling it that
Neither card is even in the top 10 of Jordan's most important cards. Definitely top 20, but not top 10.
I’ve been collecting since I was a kid, born in 86. It’s been long standing that the 86 card is his rookie card and the star card was reprinted by Star when Jordan got popular and that star wasn’t accepted as a viable option. Everybody can have their own opinion and it’s fine but the 86 fleer is a grail card for me not the 84 star. However as a Jordan fan, I would take either.
And for this very reason - you got misinformed and believed a rumor. The 84 Star was never reprinted. All the information is in Geoff Wilsons video with Steve Taft. check it out. Just facts.
@@80sStarBasketball😂😂😂your source being Geoff wilson says ALOT.
@@johnwayne9828 Steve Taft is the source. Geoff does the interview
PSA is not grading 1985 star cards yet.
This needs to change. Come on Brenden Bigalow Start grading the 85’ Star Jordan #117.
That lets you know that Nat doesn’t own any Star Jordan rookies. They’ll start grading them once Nat buys one……..
@@ammocan2796 Oh that’s right. Nat owns one so that’s why PSA graded them now……
@@ammocan2796 Hey, “Grading is a scam” is my line!!!
Pump n dump classic influencers love to hype up their cards
So hypothetically let's say that there was not a pack pulled jordan card made until 1994 and that the only jordan card available was the 1984 star card. To all of the Fleer people, are you trying to then tell me that my hypothetical 1994 card would be considered his RC card when a licensed 1984 card was already made? I think not.
“I’m just giving my opinion” “Debate Over”. The simple fact is you aren’t the authority. That’s cool that you gave some facts but the same facts that you listed, “limited distribution”, “not pack pulled” are the exact reasons why both the 84 star and the 86 fleer are both considered his rookie cards. I also love that you mention Steve Taft because he has also stated the same thing. You may not agree with it but general consensus is that both are his rookie cards.
Titles and thumbnails are for internet marketing. I love both cards. I do believe there is only one true rookie card, but still have a ton of respect for the 86 fleer. Would love to own both
I noticed you couldn't give a crap what this means for other notable players like Barkley, Olajuwon, Ewing, etc. This video is all about Jordan, Jordan, Jordan, cause that's where the grift is.
No it’s just the reality that Jordan stifled the careers of all the other greats of the era. That’s what makes him the greatest. I own the Star Barkley and will own the Olajuwon at some point. Calling everything a grift is short sighted and missing the point of the video
the only thing that takes away from the star is its not a pack pulled card it was distributed to dealers in team packs, fleer first pack pulled rookie
So after all these years we are now going to recognize the 1984 Star as Jordan's rookie instead of the 1986 Fleer? How come then many still recognize the 1986 Fleer as his RC?
Because some people cannot or dont want to change.. even if new information or change is being presented. PSA and Beckett changing stance was huge news in the hobby for 80s basketball. Perception is the only thing keeping people considering the 86 Fleer as a RC- but that perception has been challenged. The 84 Star has always been his RC actually.
Beckett hasn’t actually changed its stance. Get your facts right.
Didn’t the 84-85 Star Michael Jordan court kings 5x7 card #26 come out before the 101?
That was a subset card and wasn't a base set card. So coming out before didnt really matter even if it did. LOVE that card BTW.
Yep exactly. Star made so many variations
That Star Court Kings card is my favorite and has the greatest photo of MJ to ever grace the front of a card. That’s my “Rookie”card 😂
@@Jason-wx6lj it's really cool
That 86 Fleer Jordan rookie painting on your wall is awesome!🤣😂
It's the best 3rd year card painting I own ;)
@@TheSportsCardDad Hahaha!!!🤣
Great video Sports Card Dad! I’m enjoying the passionate conversations you’ve generated amongst the RUclips community from this debate. This is a debate that will continue with future generations which is a great thing for all the MJ fans out there.
Thanks for saying so! As you said, debate is really healthy, especially in such a nuanced hobby
The 84 Star Jordan is his true rookie, but Star cards have the worst photos. Thats why 86 Fleer will always be the grail rookie cards to so many collectors. That 86 Fleer Jordan photo is as iconic as you can get for a sports card. I noticed the same comparing early 80’s Donruss and Fleer Baseball to Topps Baseball cards. The early 80’s Donruss and Fleer Baseball design and photos are so bland.
You know that alot of the 86 fleer photos are actually STAR photos?
Agree the 86 fleer photo is awesome. I do like many of the Star photos though, just depends
You had the whole 83 set also. That was a great set and much more rare than the 84 because the 1st 5 sets were short printed because of quality control Issues. There were only 800 bags made of the 70 sixers Lakers and bucks, Only 600 made of the Celtics and only 400 made of the Dallas Mavericks. I
believe the 5 by 7 Court king set came out before the 84 set so that could be considered Jordan's 1st card.
Beckett did make an annual price guide every year. 1 covered football basketball hockey and boxing. I have the 1 from 1987 Michael Jordan's Star company rookie is listed for $1 nd his 86 fleer is listed for .75 cents. The most expensive basketball card was Bill Russell's rookie card listed for $80. Wilt chamberlain's rookie card was listed for $30.
Bear poker. Your theory has many many holes in it Dustin. I’m not going to get into it here but I will say this. It is dangerous and irresponsible to try and rewrite hobby history. Secondly, we can not take today’s standards of a rookie card and apply them to the past. It was a different era and rookie card standards were different then. I was thinking about doing a response video but I like you too much. Tell Dave I said hi and nice try. 😂
I like you too Victor, but we don’t always have to agree. 👍 I will say using a word like ‘dangerous’ when debating a cardboard hobby topic is overly dramatic. We aren’t choosing whether or not to send troops into war.
@@TheSportsCardDad Thats fair but when we check comps for these cards we’re talking six figures. To devalue one or the other is indeed dangerous to the market. This is why a fair compromise is a*RC for both, indicating that these are debatable. Love ya man ☺️✌️🏼
@true_rcs very Fair assessment 👏
disagree with you completely @true_rcs. It was a false narrative for the 86 fleer to begin with. PSA and Beckett have changed stance - might want to check why. Value has nothing to do with it - Dustin just throwing out facts. Might want to check yours. Perhaps you might just might look in the mirror and reassess. But im guessing value has to do with your decision.
@@true_rcs isnt about value ... just facts of what is a rookie card. Clearly value has biased your opinion and has sway. Dustin mentioned nothing of value - just true to what is a rookie card.
Reason why no one is interested in basketball cards back in the 80s was , it was meant for kids , not Wall Street hedge funds like Geoff Wilson
What does he have to do with your comment?
Just toxic for being toxic.
That’s not what the hobby is about
Thanks for making a video on this. I know a lot about this subject, and the only thing I think you got wrong was Steve Taft working with PSA as they started to grade these recently. From talking to Steve personally quite a bit, I believe he said that is not the case. They went at that on their own.
I bought my Fleer 86 back in 1992 for $100. A big purchase for me then (now a PSA 7). Wish I had the 1984 Star "True Rookie". Great show Dad
The 86 Fleer is an amazing, iconic card! No disrespect meant to the 86 Fleer
Loved today's topic. I have BGS and GAI graded. Unfortunately not the RC.
I enjoy watching when you do these types of videos, historical information. In the hobby it’s about demand, I compare it to the Mantle. Rookie is 51’ but every one prefers the 52’ Topps.
what a world we would live in if that every RC you wanted you just pulled off the rack in a team set, LOL. the only people calling these RCs are the ones who own them.
called it a RC before I went and got one. Came to the same common sense conclusion that Dustin came too. Lots have changed in the last 2 years.
@@80sStarBasketball😂😂😂that explains alot.....you got skin in the game, so of course you're gonna pump the shit out of the card......but dudes spitting facts, the only people calling it his rookie card are the people who have one. The last few years isnt gonna change the fact that the hobby avoided that card like the plague for over 30 years. I hope for your sake you didnt drop too much on that trash card.
@@johnwayne9828 happy collecting 🙂
Lame argument. What about the fact a rookie has to be from his rookie year! Now explain your 3rd year 57 card. 😅
86 has and will always be the rookie. Jordan is not the only rookie that started in 84 that 86 fleer is their rookie card. Star being sold on SHN, nobody considers a shopping channel card to be legit, especially since Fraud Goldin pumped them back than. With the internet just starting in the 90s, the definition of “true” cards will change just due to people’s mental thinking changing. No way whoever grades Star cards now truely remembers what a “real” Star card is. Even in the 90s, I remember the 86 as the only true rookie.
@@ammocan2796 did you listen to the video?
The fact that people are still buying, the 1986 fleer much more often than the star tells me, the debate ISN'T over, regardless of your opinion on which is the true rookie.
There is about a 40 to 1 ratio of 1986 Fleer to the 101. That's why they are buying more.... there are a whole bunch more of 1986 Fleer by alot. Its actually a bad thing
Good video, Dustin. Really interesting topic.
Thanks!
would be interesting for your take on it @JunkWaxHero. With PSA's Nat Turner calling the 101 the true rookie card and grading it and the 2022 October issue of Beckett basically apologizing about STAR.... Seems a big change to a 40 year old debate. Now that the misinformation has cleared - changing how people collect their favorite decade of vintage basketball cards.
@@80sStarBasketball Dustin makes some compelling points. I don’t like the photo on 101 but I think I’m on board that it’s the rookie.
@@JunkWaxHero I agree on that... the 1986 Fleer photo is second to none IMO. Dont love the 101 photo either... but think of it this way - that photo kinda shows that he wasn't known as "Air" Jordan yet and was a true rookie. By the time the 1986 Fleer came out he was Air Jordan and the photo reflects how popular he was at that point.
@@ammocan2796 I say it jokingly about the Jordan. It’s not really a valid criteria.
RC card have traditionally been card with college stats only..., e.g there is no NB season, 1986 Fleer has never been a RC card because it has 3 nba seson stats on the back..., hence why i never bought it as rc card even though i got laughed at everywhere, and now that belief has come to fruition. Now people are trying to sell them asap to recoup as much value as they can before it flattens
Great video. Very informative and interesting. Would love to see more like this
Are we gonna get a '84 Star Jordan painting to replace that NOT JORDAN RC behind you? Let's hope so😊
I know people will get in their feels, but as I said in the video, I love the 86 fleer. It’s and iconic card that I want to own one day as well. It’s just not the RC
@@TheSportsCardDad I'm not hearing a No! I kid I kid😂
Hey there Dustin how you doing ?
Man I really didn't think I was going to weigh in on this one but being that somebody else a few days back already mentioned it what the hell. you know it seems like most people I've encountered over a few decades seem to respect Dr Beckett and so if that's the case why not just let what he originally said stand.
I mean that first decade very few people had an issue with it.
And that's my 2 cent's beedy beedy beedy that's all folk's.
It sounds like the nay sayers to the Star card are saying….since you didn’t have to gamble for the card and get lucky, then it’s not his true RC???
Guess i should just sell my BGS 8.5 Fleer 1986 MJ..... how about guys? What you doing with yours?? Oh that's right you don't have one....
lol - I had several. sold them months ago. I think it will continue to slowly fall IMO - there were so many produced. I don't see a catalyst for any price increase with PSA and Beckett giving STAR the legitimacy recently.
@@80sStarBasketballThe best part for me is I don't need to sell mine or want to (not over-invested). I think you're wrong with regards to price decline over the long term. Time will tell, enjoy yr Star.
@@HODL_BTC If you love the card dont ever sell it! the 1986 Fleer is an amazing card. The photo on it is second to none.
Sold mine. Figured there always available and I’ll get one down the road again for cheaper most likely. It’s a great card but I don’t see the value in it anymore considering the high pop count.
@@80sStarBasketballthanks and appreciate the reply.
Hi sports card dad how do we really know the star card is Michael Jordan true rookie card last this is Michael from California
he just explained it in the video. The definition of Rookie is first year. There is only 1 licensed NBA trading card Base set card for Jordan that was Nationally distributed that year - the STAR #101.
@@80sStarBasketballStar = 🗑️
Dustin - hope you were able to get that 101. Pretty big jump in price on the quality examples recently (check out RE auction results last night - 2 sales avg 30k for a PSA 7. thats over a 50% increase from a few months ago). Also noticed private transactions going up. Seems to me a trend established. Got my popcorn out ;)
Hey thanks man, should have it pretty soon. I watched your video today about that REA 7 sale, deserving price I thought
@@TheSportsCardDad very cool on your 101! Glad you saw the vid. Yeah gonna be interesting to see that ebay one end as well.
The fact that the president of Star was a known charlatan to me makes his brand inauthentic. I personally wouldn't want any of his cards in my collection. As I look at the brand as fraudulent, I personally don't recognize the 1984 Star card as his rookie card.
I don't own either, so I don't have a horse in the race. However, if I owned the 86 Fleer I would covet it. If I owned the 84 Star I would immediately put it up for auction.
Would you guys consider the Star 85-86 Jordan a rookie or not I was gonna buy it for 1,200 for a bgs just need more opinions on it??
The 1985 Star Jordan #117 is the second year Base set Jordan card. It is not a rookie. however very low pop count for it so would recommend getting it.
Save your money and buy the 86 Fleer!
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb sold 2 of em. There are so many of them
@@80sStarBasketball mid grade examples… yes. High grade, not so much.
@@JenniferMedina-bg1zb the total pop count of a Star 101 is almost half the 52 topps mantle. Almost 40 to 1 ratio of 86 fleer to star 101. Check the pop counts
THe star cards of jordan are very cool.. I own them… i want more of them.. but the 86 fleer is his rookie card...
They were not available nationwide...they were first distributed in the Teams Arenas...which means Chicago/Illinois had more of the jordans to begin with..then use an estimate of 5000 sets ...so thats 100 sets available per state...and who in the hell was mailing away for card sets back then except for shop owners which this stuff ended up filtering down to..to say this was available "Nationwide " or "To the average collector " is an absolute joke..these basement made cards are garbage and the only people that talk good about them are the ones that own the cards..
I absolutely agree with you on all accounts you had to be waste deep as a collector of all random crap to come across this card and I'm sure the ones who have them where shop owners and wierd coin and Antique collector hoarder types. this thing was a unicorn of a Novelty set ! The craziest part about it he is the very first player in the pack and at the top if he was not showcased with a slight buzz those packs would have hit the garbage cans nobody wanted the terribulls" set they wanted Celtics ,Lakers if anything! The ultimate miracle was this Random guy secured licensing rights !! First
Agreed. Star is low quality
Oh they were available nationwide. Maybe less people knew of them, but it speak to the overall demand of basketball cards during that time period. Low low demand
This is not a topic for discussion.. the 86 fleer is jordans rookie card… done deal based on rookie card standards.. please stop talking about this.. the star cards are very cool and I own a few star cards of jordan but by no means do I think its his rookie card…… and why ? because its NOT.. period...
Who created the 'rookie card standards'? That seems to be a lot of hobby power, don't you think?
@@TheSportsCardDad I’m not an expert…. but I know the basics… licensed, randomly pack pulled, nationally distributed, 1st card… there are prolly more but the star cards already dont 2 of those 4 requirements… not randomly pack pulled, they were in team bags and u bought the by the team… so cleary not random.. they were not nationally retail distributed… they were distruted at events and thru local card shops. So 2 clear violations of being a valid card as his rookie.. the 86 fleer is his rookie.. and yes.. the “hobby” created thru MANY years… Anyone in the hobby would agree with those rules… I do love the star cards tho.. like I said I have a few star jordan cards…. my fav is the USA Olympic team card...
I just looked at prices YIKES!!!
and they could skyrocket... the 101 Star has almost HALF the pop count of a 52 Mantle. The 101 is the most undervalued card in the hobby.
Star will crash
I hope you did end up getting one shortly after making this video, because the prices have now gone to the moon where they should have always been. There are a lot of knuckleheads in the hobby, but they did finally catch on.
101 is NOT PACK PULLED! 101 looks CHEAP & IS LOW QUALITY! #57 Will ALWAYS represent MJ’s first card because it was actually PACK PULLED! No chase no fun! Getting a guaranteed MJ in a team bag is not what the hobby is about! Keep telling yourselves whatever makes you feel better but anyone could have bought that team bag and that along with the terrible photo spoils the card completely!
If you can't choose, just own both 💪
It is the true rookie
That's gonna change everything
So the Mickey Mantle 1951 Bowman card is the first true rookie card?? That’s a debate too. I say the 1951 Bowman is and not the 1952 Topps. That’s the second year card. Kind of the same issue for what’s the true rookie card
It’s the company’s RC , right
@@ammocan2796 haha yes! If everyone’s comparing the Mickey’s the Jordan RC Star card with the Fleer card, why not?
@@ammocan2796 so when the industry/collectors, say the Fleer is Jordan‘s rookie card and the 1952 Topps is Mickey’s rookie card, they are wrong, right?
@@ammocan2796 you cringe every time it’s said I bet.. even in the article title above, right?!
It’s the manufacturers rookie cards, not the players …
Yep, ‘84 Star is it!
Of course sentiment has changed recently thanks to the influencer pump…. That is the ONLY recent it’s become popular
You said at the end.. the 84 star 101 is his rookie card…. you are wrong for sure.. i found u making that statement against all the hobby rules for rookie cards… I hope u retract that in another video as that was a VERRY WRONG statement to make.. it is not his rookie card in the hobby we love…
@@ammocan2796 No.. its not.. I own jordan star card 101 and 86 fleer.. 86 fleer is the rookie card to real hobby collectors and why its so much more important to know.. 4 major rules and some other minor.. lets just do 4 major.. 1. Random Packed Pulled 2. Nationaly distributed so all can get it equally 3. Licensed 4. First year card.. the 84 star 101 only has 2 of those.. it was not randomly distributed in packs… it was distributed to specific card shops and events.. thats not accepted.. and they were distributed as TEAM packs.. you could buy the Chicago team pack in a clear pack which certainly is not random.. So you people who say its his rookie card are newbies or just not part of the real hobby… not trying to be mean.. just trying to teach anyone who thinks the 84 star is the true jordan rookie card.. it is NOT...
The circumstances that led to Star releasing sets had everything to do with basketball and trading card history. There simply wasn’t widespread distribution, nor was there any basketballpacks to pull. For some, that mitigates the application of “rules” #1 and #2… Emerson said: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.” Is it foolish to claim a card produced two years later is more of a rookie card because distribution and randomization was conforming to “normal”circumstances? What if the circumstances actually tell a story about the failing popularity of the game and basketball sector of the hobby? I think reducing this particular debate to right or wrong misses something about the history of basketball cards. And, respectfully, I would say in this case, Emerson’s sentiment is relevant.
@@pleasurepoint that makes no sense… if u applied that to other rules or even laws it makes now sense.. here is an example on laws which apply as a law or rules… I did not know that this law/rule existed so I cannot be charged.. no, the law/rule is the bottom line.. it does not matter about the state of the situation… if that were the case it would be bending the rules…so your statement is finding a way to “bend” the rules… so yeah again I own both cards and by FAR with no doubt my 86 fleer is the rookie card...
Said it for years
There is a current player entering the GOAT conversion, who's True rookie card is 5 years older than most collectors realize.
There will be debate videos about this card similar to the one's being made abouts and Is Michael Jordan's 1984 Star #101 vs his 1986 Fleer #57. Maybe you can make a video yourself ?
The card in question was the the players first Professionally licensed, Nationally distributed, Randomly inserted in packs containing players from the whole professional leage which is the highest major league in the country. Additionally, the Flagship card print run is under 10K with it's parallels and promos cards produced in increasingly much lower numbers.
The Player is Shohei Ohtani !
The country of Japan
The card is produced by the BBM, (The Topps of Japan.) which remains the #1 Baseball card manufacturer in Japan.
The 2013 BBM Shohei Ohtani #183 1st Version Flagship series Rookie card.
A PSA 10 will cost you over $2K. With a print run this low it's still highly undervalued. Especially considering the 2018 Ohtani MLB print runs or the 2017 Mega Box print run.
For perspective, the PSA 10 pop count of the 2017 Shohei Ohtani Mega Box base card is several times more than the PSA 10 pop count of All 2013 Shohei Ohtani #183 1st Version Flagship series (12 parallels & ptomos) combined.
That's just one MLB card, Not including the hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of 2018 MLB Shohei Ohtani Rookie cards.
You think collectors arent aware of japanese players having japanese cards? People figured that out 23 years ago when ichiro came to america. And like ichiro, his bbm japanese rookie as well as MLB rookie cards all technically count as rookie cards.
@johnwayne9828 Well Duke, I would think that Japanese players do know that they have Japanese cards just the same as American players know that they have American Baseball cards.
Ichero opened the door, Shohei knocked it down after the WBC. The Flagship 183 1st Version Rookie cards jumped about 5X up until the injury. They are still Clearly undervalued compared to the Millions of MLB cards. With a around 10K base cards printed, they should be much higher. Over hallf of the Flagship parallels have PSA 10 pop counts of 11 or less. When these cards are recognized properly, they'll go to the moon.
BBM is the Topps of Japan and in all their sets, only one 1/1 was printed. The 2013 #183 1st Version Blue Signature Facsimile. Imagine if Topps had only one Shohei Ohtani superfractor printed across all of their set ? Say a Bowman Chrome batting auto Superfractor and no other Superfractors. No Topps Chrome auto or none auto and so on.
What would that Superfractor be worth ?
That's what BBM has done with Shohei Ohtani years before the MLB sets. That cards should be the most sought-after Ohtani card in the world. Hardly anyone knows about it. Until the collectors in America are educated about this set and that card, and become a household norm among collectors the same as MLB cards, I'll maintain that it's like the 1984 Star Jordan 101 in the early 90s.
@@johnmccarthy9165 unfortunately, all you gotta do is look at ichiro to blow your logic out of the water.....his 93 bbm is still not his most valuable or sought after rookie card. It will always have a place in the hobby, but its not the hidden gem lottery ticket you think you've stumbled upon before anyone else.
@johnwayne9828 Actually, my argument is spot on.
You're overlooking the point. Ichiro isn't the Michael Jordan of Baseball. He might equate to Patrick Ewing. Patrick Ewing is a terrific player, as is Ichiro. But Patrick Ewing isn't the GOAT of Basketball, Michael Jordan is.
If Michael Jordan wasn't the GOAT, people wouldn't be debating 1984 Star vs 1986 Fleer nearly as much.
Shohei Ohtani could become the GOAT of Baseball if he stays healthy. If he does become the GOAT of Baseball like a Babe Ruth or a juiced Bonds, people will debate his true Rookie card. Ichiro doesn't enter that conversation, Ewing doesn't enter the GOAT debate either.
Michael Jordan does sit on top of the GOAT debate, and he raised interest in the 84 Star #101 because of it.
If Shohei Ohtani stays healthy and productive, he too will sit on top of the GOAT debate, and he'll raise interest in the 2013 BBM 183 in the same way Michael Jordan affected the 84 Star set.
Your argument assumes Ichiro is equal to Michael Jordan, which he isn't. Mine assumes Shohei Ohtani could become equal to Michael Jordan. If he does, then his 2013 BBM 183 will be like Michael Jordan's 1984 Star. People will debate the BBM 183 Flagship set vs MLB Flagship Rookie card sets.
@@johnmccarthy9165 I already told you, the hobby settled japanese players "true" rookies with ichiro......they have 2 rookies, a Japanese rookie card and an mlb rookie card. And to say ichiro is the Patrick Ewing to shoheis jordan, youre either 12, dont even watch baseball, or youre just slow. That's the biggest problem with you covid noobs, youd rather speculate than show respect to the established legends.
1986 Fleer over Star any day
I learned a lot watching this video. Thanks!
Dustin - I did a response and follow up video to your vid. Check it out if you have a sec. I also add other people in clips backing your assessment up.
I saw it, thanks! Researching Star bball has been a fun ride over the last couple years
@@TheSportsCardDad definitely such an interesting story with twists and turns over decades 😆! Star was the only game in town for such a groundbreaking year for the NBA
Hi, why don’t you do any promotions on Tiger Woods? He is a goat
1984 Topps now card... Sophia Smith best soccer player Topps now card 3 bucks on ur comc
Ow wow I have that card 🎉
I don’t own either but Star was never a true basketball set. The 86 Fleer is his first official card. So if the Star is his RC then all those minor league baseball sets are true first cards…come on man give me a break. Star cards are junk.
A minor league card that is nba licensed with Bulls logo etc? 🤔
@@TheSportsCardDad I get the license thing Dustin but the card needs to be pulled from box with packs from a major company. Not some hack printing cards from his garage. And the Star card is ugly the 86 has an Iconic image of MJ. Again I don’t own either but I have been a collector for over 45 years and no way Star cards are a legit company or cards. Just my opinion my friend.
@@4x4rubicon46 they absolutely are legitimate. thats the whole point of an NBA license set. The STAR set in some ways was alot more like Topps than Fleer. Very large and comprehensive of the NBA. Pack pulled argument has little weight for many reasons. been in the hobby for 40 years as well. Dustin just throwing out facts. PSA and Beckett changed their minds as well last 2 years.
@@4x4rubicon46sterling sharps rookie card is in the 1989 score supplemental set. No packs, just a factory set. Is that not his rookie?
What’s up…. WHO DAT
Who dat?!?
Well the debate will continue………I think the 1985 Nike Promo should be his 1st rookie
not part of an NBA base set. Pretty simple case for the #101.
@@80sStarBasketball star was a unlicensed product
@@Star-Collector70 huh? Star was NBA licensed - did you even watch the video your commenting on?
@@80sStarBasketball i think Nike promo is more iconic than the Star 101. It my opinion so agree or disagree
That Nike promo card is awesome. The logo, the shoes, the Chicago skyline. It should be worth MILLIONS, especially in a PSA 8. Come on hobby fam, pump the Nike promo Jordan!! In a PSA 8 specifically!! 😁
That Star card is the equivalent of a Panini Instant card. Sure it existed first, if you're stuck in the third dimension and believe in "time". Those who are enlightened know the truth.
Who’s enlightened? And who isn’t? 🤔
such nonsense
Exactly. Star was such a cheap product. Nobody wanted it. For a reason
Sounds like your stuck in the third dimension and it’s loaded with 3rd year Jordan’s 😂😂😂😂
@@peterhamouroudis7467 my 86 Fleer MJ might be worth more than your whole collection 😂
Hi Dusty,
Here’s my current top 10 cards…
1. 86 Fleer MJ #57 RC BGS GEM MINT
2. 86 Fleer MJ #57 RC PSA 9 MINT
3. 54 Topps Hank Aaron SGC 7
4. 51 Bowman Willie Mays RC BVG 4.5
5. 01 Topps Traded Gold Pujols BGS Gem Mint
6. 64 Topps Pete Rose RC SGC 7
7. 80 Topps Bird Magic RC PSA 8
8. 55 Bowman Hank Aaron PSA 7
9. 17 Bowman Chrome Auto Refractor Acuna BGS 9.5
10. 81 Topps Montana RC PSA 9
😳
Lol nice troll