Very Dark Themes in Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition - Dark Sun & More
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- Ok guys, I know this may be difficult, but we need to talk about dark themes in Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition, how it relates to social issues in 2019, Dark Sun and what is and is not appropriate in your games.
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Yes yes yes... I know I said "Dark Suns" and not Dark Sun... I blame Starfinder's Dead Suns campaign for messing with me so bad, but I'm not going to re-film it now xD
@Nipha Ahtlantashah cultural marxism is a alt-right dog whistle.
Nipha Ahtlantashah lol you have no clue what you are talking about. First off instinct is not logical always. So your whole argument already broke down. Secondly, it’s not racism it’s tribalism that is natural. Humans will break down into groups no matter what. One form is racism. For example they did a study with babies and the babies seemed to like to see the puppet who didn’t choose the same cereal as them. So the next part of your argument is debunked. Now let’s get to the last part which was basically racism is needed for a successful specify. Every society that has been culturally isolated has been backwards. In fact the Renaissance in erudite only exploded because they were seeing the mathematics of the Middle East, the science of China, the philosophy of old, etc.Racism inherently closes you off you and in turn stops your society form advancing.
So you are incorrect at every single level. Good job.
No worries, with videos like this I know why I subscribed to your channel. Thank you very much.
@@mattjohnson380 define alt-right
@@conradkorbol No racism is pretty natural and can be beneficial in its earliest forms, it keeps the tribe safe from potential enemies. Racism *is* a kind of tribalism, in fact it's one of the earliest forms of tribalism. Is it beneficial now? Mmm, not so much. In a multiracial society racism breaks down social cohesion. In monoracial societies racism may hold society together, is this how most societies work today? Most are multiracial to some degree, but some in the far east arent.
I am just saying: Avatar the last airbender.
What made it one of greatest childrens shows in history and not just another adventure cartoon was its mature themes.
If you have too much of it, youll end up with schindlers list, to little of it you will end up with the dungeons and dragons cartoon from the 80s.
If you have too much you have Come and See
Truth be told. The Episode where the snobby caster kid got to be DM for a day to learn about consequences, cause and effect. More adults should watch that one these days.
and yet the 80's cartoon was considered dark at the time, compare it to anything else that aired at the time and it was a lot darker in tone than everything else
My son immediately pointed out "So, EVERYONE wants to murder Aang? Not a kids show"
Cody: There might not be any ads on this video because of some of the tags and the content.
RUclips: Tries to sell me trucks anyway.
oh for you it's trucks? i got baby products, i haven't had a date in two years though
"They were animals. And I
slaughtered them like animals.
I hate them."
I hate sand
younglings.
And not just the men, but the women, and the children too.
Funny i suggested my barbarian may reenact that scene in curse of stradh if people didn't stop trying to get him to drink wine.
So your setting has furries?
I’m currently playing an oath of vengeance paladin in one of my games. When I came across a slaughtered family, I took a small toy from the children’s room as a reminder of why I’m fighting. I’ve found it to be a great role playing item.
I had a similar thing, only its a tattered child's hat. That campaign is over now, but to quite my Paladin when she came upon the person's responsible: "Karma's a bitch. Sometimes, I'm Karma."
Did you hunt them down a d get justice?
It's hard to be a tragic half-orc in a world where racism doesn't exist.
No, it really isnt. "Bandits destroyed my village." "I was separated from my family as a child through a natural disaster, I hope to find them again." "My loved one was forced to marry someone of higher status to fulfill their family's expectations."
Boom 3 different tragic backstory ideas to springboard off of without racism.
Or rape.
@@joshuafisher4717 None of them would segregate him, kick him when down or make it difficult to get ordinary services and/or wares. Racism adds more layers to the game. It's fun within the game.
@@MozzyIT Op never said his caracter needed to be segregated or kicked when he was down, just tragic
@@zhangbill1194 I'm reading between the lines since he only wrote one sentence, and used tragic, half-orc and racism in it. So I'm guessing he wants the tragedy to stem from him being a half-orc, and judged on sight rather than having a tragic backstory. Since, if we go by your logic, he never mentioned "backstory" either.
You can explore the themes without going over the top. Maturity should be prevalent here. To dismiss these themes is to be in denial of reality and nature of beings in general. D&D shouldn’t dismiss these themes, but use them to tell heroic stories.
Therefore one should judge the maturity of your group when thinking about presenting these "challenges". I DM for a group of HS students and I doubt that I will present them with any of these topics other than a hand wave comment if necessary and not go into any details. The adults I play with I feel can handle darker themes but if I'm not sure about a specific topic, then a discussion prior to introducing that topic into the game should occur. If you look at the Drow, you see an evil society which clearly makes those who would oppose them feel more heroic. And if the goal of the your game is to tell a heroic story then that is a good start. I appreciate you talking about this.
Rodney Allen Rossow a great DM can also use it as a great ending if one retires a character. For instance a party rescues a girl from mezzoboranzan whom is chained up. They free her make it back to surface. Since her parents are dead they give her to monks as the pc’s cant take care of her. Years later a pc retires and a young lady visits them in monk cloths and an adventurer herself and thanks them for rescuing her from the Drow. It would make a not only heroic moment but a great role play opportunity. 😊
@@darthjoel6357 perfect way to write in a future character. Really brings it full circle
@@rodneyrossow It's not the high school kids that you need to worry about. It's the university students that worry me. The rich kids that get coddled their whole live can't handle reality when it comes alive to them.
I learned the reasoning behind slavery back in early Sunday School at church. I appreciate the concept of slavery, in the setting that it is moral and not abusive and unnecessary. It is strange to me, that modern people see slavery as an evil thing, when they really know nothing about this institution and why it was important to have back in the Bronze Age and Biblical times. It was either that or genocide your enemies or your own tribe gets slaughtered to those who would not show you such a mercy as slavery.
Godspeed and be weary if you ever play my game, Dark Age.
@@southernknight9983 slavery often didn't prevent revenge. It was a dark age indeed.
Bottom line: focus on fun. If dark themes enhance play at your table, just do it.
So what you are saying.... "is no more weapons"? You can't break into a crypt and grave rob. So please tell me what if your idea "Fun". Slaying a dragon... who might be feeding its family? Attacking thieves, who you find out are political refugees who are forced to fight to just survive?
@@lorensoth4365 There is such a thing as evil campaigns.
@@lorensoth4365 well actually I'm very proud my players more often than not, when facing bandits, try to understand their motivations before just slaughtering them, even when I as a DM had not thought of that possibility. The limits of you creativity in game and problem solving abilities reflect a lot about how you think in the real world and I'm very proud of them
I mean, make sure everyone's okay with it first but yeah
I once created a campaign in which they were taking care of a cargo to be delivered to a rich man across the sea, once they arrived they notice the place was trash and that the cargo that they so blindly protect was a opium
Since the first time I DM'd in DarkSun setting, I've never looked back. Slavery is a heavy topic but in a dystopian fantasy RPG universe, it is also a powerful device for motivating the players. People also underestimate the educational opportunities to actually increase understanding and empathy through the telling of a story. D&D isn't just about fun, social engagement, and play, it is also about the freedom to dream up ways to solve big problems, to expand your worldview by introducing experiences outside your bubble.
If I may add one thing to your discussion: Session Zero. You can use it to gauge how dark you can go before the campaign starts.
I had a DM that was fond of making up survey sheets to see what type of game that their players will enjoy. This could be another question to add...
A solid Session Zero can prevent at least half or the problems that come up in TTRPGS.
There are also consent sheets that are a great way to dm a campaign for people you don't know that well yet
You can also use session 0 to decide who you want/don’t want in your game.
"give us hell on earth" was the best line I've ever heard as a GM
I want Dark Sun. I want it more than any setting.
But only if they do psionics correctly.
Unless they do Kara-tur i agree
dArK sUn iS tErRiBlE bUt rAvEnLoFt iS fInE.
Lol
Bring on the Dark Sun! Fight the dragon!
It sounds like an interesting enough idea
Itll happen man. I felt the same way about eberron and now im getting a official 5e book. Just have a little faith
in one of my games a while back I made a point that Necromancy wasn't the "most evil" magic. it was Enchantment.
a father/husband was using Enchantment magics to make his "perfect" family. he Made his son into a confident and assertive athlete, destined for the guard. he Made his daughter a tradeswoman, one who made ceramics, with a crush on the baker boy down the road. he Made his wife into a master of the domestic arts who loved him dearly.
when really they were a shy boy who aspired to be a healer, and who loved nature and animals. a girl who aspired to enlist, and who had a crush on the baker's sister. and a woman who despised him and wanted to do as her mother had and become an alchemist and herbalist.
I shone a light into the less obvious kind of domestic abuse. and while no one was uncomfortable, they all took it seriously and I could see it.
Damn. That's really interesting. Props on a creative idea!
Oh absolutely. Necromancy might be fucking around with the dead. But Enchantment fucks around with the LIVING, and after it ends...you still have to live through what happened.
Holy f**k! That's an awesome implementation of typical D&D magic, making an analogy with real world problems! I have never seen, and will never see again, Enchantment in the same way!
I already implemented something similar with Illusion. With continual, and frequent, applications of Permanent/Programmed Illusion (I'm talking 2nd ed. AD&D), I made an illusionist that was completely lost in his imaginary world... that was quite lethal for anyone else that entered (going by the rules of AD&D, where high-level illusions could kill).
My dude, I fucking love you sooo much. I can use this and its information that I'll hold onto for years as I play dnd in years to come.
Holy shit, this is so true! Now that I think about it, in any fantasy game or franchise, my truely evil wizard characters have always been Enchanter / mind mage types, whether it was D&D; or Elder Scrolls (my most evil Skyrim PC was a vampire high elf illusionist); or The Dark Eye (my last evil character was a mind mage with delusions of grandeur), etc. Messing with the dead is icky, and I think it's the grossout factor that makes Necromancers the default evil wizards, but messing with the mind is where true evil is found.
I convinced my dm to read berserk, everything has suddenly shifted in tone which I find massively entertaining.
lol, it's a great read. ^_^
I gonna say this , Berserk is kinda tame compared to Goblin Slayer especially those first chapters.
@@horushyperion76 Berserk has characters die that I actually care for, though.
It has lots of......blood & guts??
Horus Hyperion Goblin Slayer is almost needlessly shocking. It gets into the GoF territory where it basically desensitizes you.
I loved Dark Sun imagery as a kid its what made me want to play D&D. That and Boris's art.
The principal artist on Dark Sun (that I recall) was Brom... and it was awesome - like Cthulhu meets Conan. (credit where due and all that)
@@whimforge Yeah, Gerald Brom pretty much _invented_ the way Dark Sun looks.
Boris Vallejo is a different - and very much worse - artist.
@@whimforge I was just going to say Brom. His work in Dark Sun started me getting into fantasy and bodybuilding.
Broms's cover art made the world of Dark Sun come to life.
This world definitely needs to be revised.
In my mind Dark Sun is errovocably linked with the art of Gerald Brom and Tom Baxa, just like Planescape is with Tony DiTerlizzi. Even though of course artists move on to new creations eventually it was a little bit jarring when when later products had someone else trying to create visuals for it.
When we faced our first nemesis, Nezznar The Black Spider, he called oue elf cleric an ibleth and it just made it so much more satisfying when she landed the killing blow on him later on.
I’ve always had these at my table, it makes the world feel real, these are medieval peoples, and it existed in the time. Playing without them makes it feel like...a children’s t.v show.
People get butt hurt about anything
This is just people. You afried from the other. You want your group to be safe and on top. Tribe dynamics. Even though race /culture raltionship isnt just the extreme almost cartoonist way of South usa vs blacks. Its can come in many way like worry, feat, slight discuss, even stuff like bonds, being rivals, being admired,jokes(yes people from non Europe and usa race jokes are really popular world wide. People still do them . And alot of the time its looks ok by everyone just dont make it hostile)..just see the complicated relationship between rome and greec culture.
Thank you for saying this. More people need to realize that just because the bad guys are into these horrible things, doesn't mean the DM likes those horrible things. DMs put horrible people in games to be hated and then overthrown.
Drowning in a sea of sand after being stunned by a psionic blast. Fun times. I love Dark Sun.
Sounds nice and deadly. I'll have to check out this setting.
"There's no wrong way to play D&D"
That should be the D&D motto.
It would be the players motto…
This "Dark Sun" setting sounds like a fun setting to explore. We already have some of these topics in 5e, I don't see why "Dark Sun" would be a problem.
To be honest I thought he was very professional with his presentation.
I don't appreciate being told things my groups have done before have no place in the game, but otherwise, yeah.
@@genobreaker1054 but he did do it in a way that made his own personal bias on the topic very obvious and very indirectly kind of back tracked on it.
but that said it is the single most sensitive topic you could ever approach. unlike most of the other ones its entirely likely that one or more players could have some form of personal experience with it and will end badly regardless of how you might bring it in or the context you use to do so, and they may not be willing to discuss it even if you do take the curtisy of asking about it first.
@@xxxxCronoxxxx we had players with personal experiences with that topic, more than one, myself included if you count assault and molestation. While it does make the event that much more impactful, as long as it is discussed in advance and everyone agrees to what they are comfortable with, along with the knowledge they can speak up at anytime if someone goes too far, it can be handled in a mature way that makes the whole ordeal seem that much more believable, and helps to immerse the players in the experience, stepping into character to appropriately react and respond who their characters would.
The comment section is infested with idiots trying to tell people they can't do things, but the video was great.
@@genobreaker1054 I can see your point of view, but for most groups, I don't know how it could be brought up in a good way. "Just object to its inclusion in a session zero" doesn't even work because in my opinion, a victim of sexual assault, rape, etc. shouldn't have to speak up about something so intensely personal.
I am currently in a Forgotten Realms campaign where I am a big target of racism as the only Tiefling (so far) in the world. I asked the DM to do this as I felt it was crucial to my character's progress. It has been tough on the character but I appreciate it as it as a player.
Being an orc in water deep has been pretty entertaining.
I wish I had more players like you at my table. Drow are utterly banned as a playable race in my D&D campaigns because of the amount of GSF1 that goes down anytime people play them.
@@conormccue2871 i know this comment is 2 years old but what does GSF1 mean?
@@agustinvenegas5238 the best I can piece together it stands for “Group Slut Fiction!” With the 1 being a mistyped exclamation mark from a keyboard.
The idea, I think, being that dark elves are an excuse to delve into sexual themes due to a mixture of Drizzt fan fiction and the hedonistic and amoral culture of Drow.
You're rocking the same hair as the "adoring fan" from oblivion.
You're amazing.
Viewing this video on 2020. Thanks for what you were saying here! I really appreciate the parallelism you were making about films and story telling
3:10 marks the first time I’ve heard “the 2020s” referred to collectively as an upcoming decade. Talk about a paradigm shift.
I love how most players don't realize that the Forgotten Realms is a post-apocalyptic setting with slaves, racial cleansing...
Post-apocalyptic? Which apocalypse was that? There have been some cataclysmic events, but nothing I'd call an apocalypse.
@@paperbullet1945 You mean other than the Dawn War, various Rage of Dragons, various exstinctions of the Creator races, Crown Wars, Karsus's Folly...
@@samuelsilbory6672 Spellplague was pretty damn apocalyptic, and hell a mere 30 or so years before that there was the Time of Troubles, when the gods were cast from their world by a very pissed off AO due to Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane being dicks, and a LOT of Gods died, including Mystara (don't worry she got replaced by another person who decided she didn't want to confuse people so she just took Mystara's name), during the time leading to some massive changes. The thing is, the various apocalypses...apocalypsese? apocalypsi? anyway the various DOOMSDAY SCENARIOS that have played out in the Realms have for the most part happened so far in the past that they're kinda not super relevant anymore so it's a bit of a stretch to call the Realms a Post-Apocalypse. Hell, the Crown Wars were 20000 years before ANY of the various times the campaign setting is normally played in, other than the Drow and Lloth still existing it's hard to say that the consequences of the Crown Wars are still really felt in modern times.
Uh, you guys have the timelines wrong, the time of troubles and spell plague did all happen within a century and a half, but Karsus' folly was over 1500 years from current setting. And during the time of Netheril was when topography and weather were being changed to such a degree. The lands of Netheril are still a scorching hot desert, despite being near the top of the world.
Samuel Silbory Time of Troubles?
Though i dont play D&D anymore and moved to Vampire the Masquerade, i really enjoy your channel.
As a tip for everyone who wants a dark themed Pen&Paper. My first try in this was an open round with all players. Ive asked if theres everything thats off topic, that you would never want in a dark themed round. No one had a single thing. After i thought that was odd, ive made it anonymous. Everyone had to write on a pc with fonts and size i told them to, an print that out and toss it in a bag. Suddenly, there was WAY more. After that, the papers got into the trashcan. And i never told anyone what was on the papers the players had given to me.
This video aged well looking at the world around us rn...
One of my most engaging 5e campaigns saw me as Callum O'Fionnlagh. A half elf, no knowledge of his birth parents aside from what little his 2 year older sister Elara could piece together from her patchy memories of them. Raised by a pair of tieflings in a nation run by one who would see all Tieflings as just more demons needing to die. A sailor first, then smuggler. Turned Rogue/Swashbuckler, with a dip into Fighter for good measure. Thrust into the other side of the world in a desert continent where the Tabaxi had, decades ago, freed themselves from the tyranny of the dark elves, only to just turn the tables and enslave them. To horrific degrees of fucked up in some cases.
Boiled down to a situation where his desire to head home and aid his parents, and possible help the revolution/civil war raging in that continent, came into stark conflict with his desire to stay, and help begin the first steps of revolution here in the desert, helping begin the liberation of a people he didn't have ties to, but felt a kinship with from having grown up in constant fear of losing his adopted parents to oppressive rule. All because he and the party had been puit in a position, thru connections and newfound skill, to aid the former major nobles of the Drow kick things off.
Shit got hella dark. Moreso, on occasion, than I'm comfortable putting into a RUclips comment. But the dark themes were welcomed by us in the party. And they made the drive to adventure feel more tangible. I could feel the emotions of a small port town smuggler, trying to convince himself he's helping, grow into something of a hero. Taking his skills in combat and socialising and turning them to real change and positive effect. And the moments where we could, as characters, look at the dark, bad things happening, and legitimately say "no more."
Don't think the darker stuff is necessary for d&d. But if you're open to it, it can really create some amazing shit.
This is another reason why darker stories make for more memorable games, because players may get offended to the tune that it makes them come up with original ideas to combat such brutality, & can make for some emotional role play experience. A certain level of brutality makes things more realistic, & players feel better about themselves when they can defeat it...
It's a dark campaign, but it doesn't glorify the darkness, it is a dark setting transiting to the light, though the path may be rocky. The problem is that most people think that darkness is the end goal like Batman's perpetual war on crime that never seems to end or make a difference. It has slavery and racism, but holds that they are bad and that status quo must be upturned. Dark and grim is used to increase the stakes, not wallow in grimdark because it is so awesome and edgy ...
In the campaign that I’m in, I’m a 34 year old half-elf bard who was raised in a secluded elf village. 20 years ago, gnomes rose up in rebellion against the elfin military. 16 years ago, the rebellion raided my village and burned it to the ground and my bard was the only survivor. The week the campaign started, it hit me that my half-elf would hold a grudge and would be racist against gnomes... and one of the three other party members is a gnome.
This REALLY messed with me at first, but when another gnome was arrested for supposedly helping the rebellion, everyone thought he must be framed. I immediately assumed he guilty since he’s a filthy gnome and gnomes aren’t trustworthy. All the other player’s were taken aback and basically did a double-take; my DM was beaming. Turns out she purposefully wanted to test my bard’s feelings on gnomes and see if I’d take the logical narrative point that he’d be a racist or if I’d conveniently ignore that.
It’s led to some really interesting party dynamics, and has been awkward once or twice. I hate that my bard is racist, but as an actor (my campaign is with almost all theatre actors) I find it fascinating to explore how his past has shaped him into someone who isn’t as kind as he’d like to think he is. As a player, I hope he experiences growth and stops being racist but who knows? So I think having this in a campaign is good, but I personally would NEVER go too far with it.
Heck, Dark Sun is my favorite D&D setting (although I still only play AD&D 2nd)... but it isn't the darkest setting.
Greyhawk is... by FAR, the darkest setting in all of D&D history (sometimes more than Raveloft).
The Great Kingdom of Aerdy was ruled by a mix of Joffrey, Ramsay, Cersei and the Mad King Aerys, all put together. Afflicted by a magical disease (caused by centuries of his lineage dealing with demons) which forced him to become an undead (a la The Mountain). The whole kingdom is infested with demons and Ramsay-level evil rulers.
In the north you have a land (Iuz) ruled by a demigod much more active than Sauron, more sadistic, which capital is reached by a road flanked by 300 miles of impaled skulls (thousands upon thousands of skulls).
The whole Greyhawk world reeks of demonic corruption. More than Dungeons & Dragons, it should be called Dungeons & Demons... :-P
Back to Dark Sun (which I've read almost all novels and AD&D supplements)... it doesn't even portray slavery being that bad (or doesn't focus on details that show how bad it is). At least if you compare it to a realistic movie like Amistad (also by Steven Spielberg), which is really hard to watch.
And the last irony... Dark Sun (at least "present day" Athas*) has very little racism. Only elves have hints of racism, or heavy distrust for non-elves (or elves from other tribes). The city-states are quite cosmopolitan, and the only thing that matters is the social class a character belongs to (slave, freeman, noble, templar, etc.)
I see Dark Sun as a harsh world (hard to survive), but not a "dark" world (morally evil or corrupt). Sure, the Sorcerer-Kings are evil, but most of the time they aren't as crazy evil as, say, the Red Wizards (that turn their slaves into Chosen Ones, tortured and malformed by magic), the drow (as explained on the video), many powerful figures of Greyhawk, the Lower Planes of Planescape, etc. Some of the Sorcerer-Kings are sometimes quite fair! Harsh but fair. Think of Hamanu and Lalali-Puy. In one of the novels ("The Brazen Gambit"), Hamanu lets go, even shows respect, for a runaway templar who did the right thing (morally).
* Spoiler: The past of Athas was marked my massive genocidal wars that really were quite racist. Basically annihilate every sentient species but one.
EDIT: How could I forget Vecna? Originally from Greyhawk, this guy (even before being temporarily destroyed by Kas) experimented over whole populations and murdered whole cities by himself. Even his hand, when worn by future rulers, turned them into bloodthirsty genocidal despots.
Fuck yeah! Seriously Dark Sun is one of if not the best setting!
A light cannot shine in a world where there is no darkness.
Ads removed? No worry brother, have my premium view 😄Seriously though, very well thought out and presented video. This sort of thing is a bit like walking a minefield and I think you did so with grace and care. Good job man.
The Conan Rpg is doing fine and slavery is a prominent theme in that setting.
I really debated about grabbing the core book a few weeks ago. Have any experience with the system?
@@ryannicolai7372 Lots actually. I've been running a Conan game for almost 2 yrs now. The 2d20 system really does a lot to capture the feel of Conan's world. The system is at it's base very simple but it has plenty of options for varying complexity. When I first started running it I just stuck to the basics really but now we use a lot of the options. I just picked up the John Carter of Mars book the other day. It uses a modified version of the system in Conan but is so similar that's easy to pick up.
@@FellVoice Conan AND John Carter?? Sign me the Hell up.
the best way to explore mature themes is to talk about them. to sweep them under the rug and hide them dosen’t help anybody
In a game about high flying adventure it can be an amazing asset to pull into darker tones, everything is spirited and high suddenly it’s quiet and solemn. Those times are the best for role playing and storytelling. The same works in reverse as well, a dark and gritty setting being briefly relieved by a glimmer of light and a moment of high spirits. It is times between these that a character’s nature and core shows.
How can anyone think there's none of those themes in D&D 5E? The entry for Tieflings in the PHB says they are treated in a distrusting and bad way. That's literal racism in the book pretty much all D&D players own. You don't even need to know about the lore to see that much.
I totally understand what you're saying, but I think Tieflings is a bad example to make your point with, lol. They are literally decedents of a demon cursed people and literally have racial features and feats with "infernal blood" and such in it. I would say people that distrust Tieflings are a bit more justified in the sense of self preservation than actually being racist, even if it is technically racism.
@@Warrior_Culture Actually it's a brilliant example. Heroism and bravery need stakes to them. You can't have either with a happy go lucky situation. And what is a person's stakes quite like infernal blood and everyone holding it against the tiefling? Standing in the face of oppression, pain, infernal heritage, and hatred to do the right thing is not just hard, it's true bravery and heroism.
@@angrytheclown801 Yes but you have to remember the setting. The player characters are exceptional individuals even at lv1. The general masses of the forgotton realms are not educated and have no one to tell them that Tieflings are anything but what they appear as, demon spawn. So its not racism to see one, as a farmer or smith, and think you need to defend yourself rather than accept one. It's not a matter of knowing better and being racist anyway, its survival. Same with Drow and Orcs. It's nothing like our world and therefor not good to compare our ideas of what's "hard but right" to the people of say...the sword coast.
@@Warrior_Culture Yeah, but it wouldn't be heroic or brave to attack them. Even if a mob. No one is saying their racism isn't justified. Just that it is racism and the tiefling is still facing it. Whether he justifies it further or proves it wrong is up to him. Thus, still a great example.
@@Warrior_Culture Heres another example the classic hatred between Dwarves and Elves or the ostracizing of Half-elves from Elven communities, there are many examples of it.
I think that as a dm/gm it's good for us to explore these topics and push our players to deal with these evils. It helps us as explore our humanity putting us in another person's shoes. Story telling has been used for this through the ages it's why we have fables.
Well said!
Very well said!
Jasmine Williams While you make a good point, I would also say that you should at least make sure that your players are okay with the dark themes you’re planning to represent in your game. While it is true that these these themes help us to explore our humanity, it is also true that the first role of a DM is to entertain. If you spring a brutal depiction of slavery, for example, on your players without having a reason to believe (either because you talked to them about it, or because you’ve played with them long enough to have seen that they are fine with such topics) that they are okay with such a thing, you risk bringing up memories or themes that your players wish to escape from through the medium of DnD, thereby reducing their overall enjoyment of your game. Hell, even most works of fiction that cover dark themes attempt to make it known that such topics are present in their works, either through the use of warnings, or through implications found in the text or in a story blurb.
@@1ManRandom So not to put words in Jasmine's mouth but what you are saying is not a rebuttal to this post. Never was it mentioned that you shouldn't talk about what game is being played, nor just springing it on your players. All that is said here is that it CAN be a good thing to push and show our players the darker sides of humanity in a safe space, just like fables have been doing for hundreds of years. Perhaps you are reading into meanings that you perceive instead of taking the op at face value.
@@cavalcojj It wasn't necessarily a rebuttal, more like an addendum to a point I generally agree with.
The important thing is to let the players know, and ask for input. Telling them, "hey for the next campaign, I am thinking of adding these elements, are you okay with that", goes along way. And if one or two players raises some objections, or express some discomfort, you can start a dialogue, and try to come up with a compromise.
It's a sad state of affairs that you would even need to make a video clarifying this.
^ THIS.
Dark sun is actually what started my gaming career and I would love to see a 5th edition setting made for it
You want Wizards of the Woke to make a new, "updated" version of Dark Sun? They already fucked the setting up with 4E's version, why would you want them to continue fucking it up with a 5E "update"?
I alway thought using these kind of dark themes gave the players a way to fight back against them, when I hear that people get offended by it it’s just weird. If the evil villain is doing these things that should make the players hate them and what to do all in their power to stop them and the evil they are doing.
One of the coolest characters in my campaign is a noblewoman rogue whose whole purpose is freeing slaves. The player got to role play being fantasy elf Harriet Tubman. Awesome.
I was part of a group that had a situation where rape and molestation were foisted on us. Unknown to any of us the lone female of the group had such horrors inflicted on her when she was younger. It was a cringe moment that saw her pack up and leave the table. It stopped gaming that night entirely as we followed her out to her car trying to figure out what happened. Eventually we persuaded her to at least tell us something...we always supported an open table and encouraged people to be open with each other...and we weren't angry that she up and left. I knew her longer than the others and she confided in me the overview of what happened to her. I told her I wasn't going to think of her differently but the others needed to know that she wasn't comfortable with that kind of a storyline even if the details were absent in her objections. The DM felt like a heel because he never considered the impact it might have. Profuse apologies were given and I think we all learned something from the experience. We ended up chilling out at a diner and things were pretty good for us all but that group didn't really last long after that. The story was scrapped and something else was run in it's place but I think we all had a sour taste in our mouths that we felt like such turds for having gone in that direction. Fortunately that girl has gotten help and is doing much better these many years later but that is still something only discussed if she feels the need to talk about it after a bad day. The guys I don't keep much contact with but I know a few have started using a questionaire for prospective players so the can get to know them better. It may be the hardest thing to talk to players about but in order to keep things enjoyable the group needs to come to the table to discuss things that may bother them. Even if it is one on one with the DM...and those personal beliefs and information are strictly confidential. No telling the others...We can't do X because this person has Y problems with it. If folks are more able to communicate the details then fine but the same rules apply. The communication is key to that gamer contract we all enter by getting involved.
Bring on dark sun. While the setting is pretty dark, i still have fond memories of games in that setting
It literally has dark in the name
Caveat to any players out there: if your GM is a military veteran of any kind, law enforcement, firefighter, or Emergent Medical practitioner of any kind, *expect* darker details. The world is a rough place, and folks who deal with it professionally are often not afraid to just show you a scene where something happens.
Honestly, we may not even intend it. It may just be so common that we don't think it's that bad. Like a description of a home with obvious signs of domestic violence. A LEO DM might cross a line on accident just because it's not something she would be told to avoid mentioning in a public interview.
Honestly, probably a damn good campaign, too.
On the other hand, the veterans I have known have not been eager to discuss violence or war. Reluctantly willing to at most.
@@42Lailoken - Definitely reluctant, and I wouldn't imply anything mean-spirited or even intentionally dark. But from experience, I can say that sometimes something slips.
As a martial artist and military vet, I don't find a need for gruesome details when I GM. It's obscene and unnecessary. And yet there have been a couple of times I mentioned the outcome of someone's roll in what *I* considered light detail, and noticed the player was immediately disturbed by the scene she suddenly found her character involved in. I toned it back *a lot* after that for that group, as that player's imagination was particularly vivid, and she wasn't used to the idea of certain sounds. Same with other instances.
I guess my point is that each person's idea of what constitutes a "dark" theme is a bit different, and sometimes we can become desensitized to things in unexpected or unintended ways.
I would even argue it's healthy for more sheltered people to rarely be exposed at a distance to that sort of thing. Too many people see any form of violence whatsoever, no matter how minor, as the absolute worst possible thing that could be done. It leads to any random inconvenience bringing about a paranoia complex or something. It's likely the root of Karen-esque behavior.
We all let slip pieces of ourselves into our storytelling, it's just something we do. Especially if we subscribe to emersion story telling, it can be therapeutic, or traumatizing, but regardless, it's important to realize it will happen.
"All things are poison, and nothing is without poison, the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison."
Gotta love them LD50's.
Thank you for exploring this sensitive topic. As always, being respectful is the gold standard advice. One additional thing I might add: if your game is exploring dark themes, even if you have player support, I would include something along the lines of a "big red button" for your group (literally or figuratively). If things get particularly intense, this allows anyone in the group to pause the game, take a break, discuss the topic outside the game, etc. Explore those darker adult themes, but give folks a fail-safe.
Dark Sun was probably what got me into D&D, I miss it so
Maybe it could return. Darker themes can teach people the horrors of these things. Yet SJWs need to shut up. Yet with our country leaning more to the right the growing subset may die out.
Grim Hollow seems like a good fit if you want a darker D&D game.
@@thezantgeneral677 Thanks! I'll check it out
dror negbi No problem! It’s not released yet, but the info present already makes it worth checking out once it comes out!
I think the most important thing anyone should take away from this video is permission. As a dungeon master we tell a story we guide and shape it, however as a friend, we want to protect or friends from undue adversity and by putting out this idea and asking if this is something they would like to explore it gives us the permission as a DM with a willing group to open that door. Dark Sun should be for sale in every comic book shop regardless as if you want to buy it that is you consenting to its content but you cannot force dark subjects on your party that's one way to get a lot of people to leave your table very fast. Thank you Cody for bringing up this topic it is one that is constantly on the minds of many here I'm sure.
I believe it's about maturity level (I guess in a sense, being extra sensitive could be a form of immaturity [no offense]), but a good DM knows what their players can handle...
@@aliendingus1991 I agree with you about the maturity level. D.m.'s need players and players need d.m.'s but you cannot let that dictate your campaign. The most anyone gets is at the start I make it clear this is an adult game, with an adult story. I make no guarantees about what will happen, so if you are easily offended , I'm sorry but my group may not be for you. I run a campaign for kids as well and as such it is not impactful on the emotions in the same way. When I'm am running for adults the decisions they make lead to where it leads. I find that a story is so much more when emotion is involved. I want more than just I walk, I fight, I talk to people. I wont make these topics the main focal point of the campaign but some of them may find there way in somewhere. If a village is being raided and you decide not to help, well someone has to win and if it is the raiders then they raided for a reason. Food, Weapons, slaves, maybe even its just them being competition for resources so it is all about eradicating. Orcs are all for spreading their DNA. They will mate with anything they can just to make more orc's accept the elven kind. If they pillage that may be one of the motivating factors.
@@aliendingus1991 I think that's a little bit ignorant. Being a psych/sociology student, I can tell you there is a long list of reasons people can be offended by certain things, and many of them have nothing to do with whether or not the person is "mature". Judging someone by what offends them is not the answer. Judging someone by WHY it offends them is much closer to the mark and "maturity" is just as often not the case. But Aidan has it right. DM and players discuss boundaries before the campaign, and problem is solved.
@@davinci3259 I have to disagree with you there. As a DM, your job is to make sure people have fun and as a good DM, you shouldn't be having fun if your players aren't having fun. Certainly, discuss the possibilities with players before the campaign begins and see if the campaign should change or the player should sit it out. But saying that you can't let players dictate your campaign....I mean that's kind of exactly what players are suppose to do. Involving emotion is great, but different people have lived different lives and if you're going to exclude someone because they associate certain themes in the game with real life events, that's kind of messed up and not their fault, and you should probably talk to them about it before hand rather than dismissing it as a maturity issue or attack on you campaign.
@@Warrior_Culture I completely agree with you.
I want to add that no matter how heavy or light you include a theme, some people will be uncomfortable and they may not realize how uncomfortable it makes them until a few sessions in. The first campaign I ran was a homebrew Roman themed world. The players were gladiators like from Spartacus so some volunteered and some were criminals who are enslaved. I made it abundantly clear about the setting from the very beginning(I'm not sure they paid attention). I really didn't have them get treated bad, just firm with stuff like "You are fighting in this match on X" and "Don't embarrass your master at a banquet". The rest of the time they were actually able to explore and interact with the world. But I still had one player that it made massively uncomfortable. After talking to that player, they ended up leaving the campaign.
Dude: when you brought in Schindler's List, shivers.
I really wish I had seen this video when it came out and not in 2021. I did it wrong. I broke a really good group because someone mentioned a goblin tribe and I immediately corrected them saying that *my* goblins were straight out of the anime "Goblin Slayer" and how they bred with human women. I screwed up big. I did not mean to, but I did. Thank you so much, this is one more talk that is making me a better DM.
And please do more Dark Sun.
IMO there are only two reasons, why some things should be avoided in writing in general:
1. you didn't do enough research on the topic
2. you don't have enough skill to portray it reasonably well
As for DMing and writing campaign setting...
The only people who have ANY right to talk to you(DM) about these things are the people who are with you at the table...
To me it is exactly the same as if you went out to eat pizza with friends and some rando came to your table and started judging you for ordering extra cheese...
if i want sexual assault described vigorously in my fictional world this Taking20 can go to hell.
It all comes down to respect for one another. A little bit of empathy goes a long way. Good video.
Agreed. Even If Everyone Is Ok With The Dark Stuff,The Intent Should ALWAYS Be For The Sake Of The Story And Not Treated As Something To Be ENJOYED: The True Colors Start To Show,When A Player Is Personally Enjoying The Concept A Little To Much As And Not Just Their Character.
I have always included racism in my world. It's a real thing, and I've always striven for a more realistic campaign world. Why should anyone else have control over the stories I decide to tell in MY world?
Same, I feel that
Personally I make an effort to devorce it from real issues.
@@an8strengthkobold360 Some things can't be divorced though. Conflict is aided by such things, and conflict is the bread and butter of these games, after all, do you want to defeat a vile evil or a cookie cutter villain that isn't a threat to dust bunnies? A balance is required.
@@angrytheclown801 just make sure not to pull a "bright".
@@an8strengthkobold360 I personally hate too Grimmdark. Like I said, there must be a balance, I had a player who hated when anything "bad" would happen to him. He always avoided fights and demanded I divorced everything painful from the game, or at least from him. It nearly got the other players characters killed when he'd run away like a coward and had temper tantrums.
Dude threw another temper tantrum every time I awarded XP and he got almost and sometimes none. I would calmly tell them that you have to face things head-on or get past them in creative ways, kinda like real life, to get any XP. One too many times and he stormed out mid-fight.
You can't divorce all real life out of gaming, you lose versimilitude and a sense of victory for the players. True, you don't need everything, but things like racism is kinda important here.
I cannot believe that a video like this had to be made...Sad, very sad. The Drow was an excellent example. Thank You
I have also felt like the Online D&D community has been very strict regarding this issue and I really think discussing the topics helps to create mutual understanding. Great video!
It is because a small minority of people have found that they can use DnD as a sort of platform for whatever social issue they are trying to push. If you just pay attention to them you see that they are rarely just talking about dnd.
WHAT? DARK THEMES IN MY FICTIONAL UNIVERSE?
HERESY
You had me at "context matters".
I’ve been watching your videos for a few months now, but this video is what made me decide to subscribe. I’ve been playing D&D and other RPG’s for a little over 20 years now, and I have seen a wide variety of maturity at the table from when a played as a young teenager to now in my 30’s. I agree with your points overall, and ABSOLUTELY agree that the people at the table should be the only governing rules for what you explore in your storytelling and overt themes in the world you present to them and their characters. That being said, I would LOVE for Dark Sun to be revived in 5e. Fell in love with it in 2e, loved every book published that gave more light into a dark world where normal fantasy-heroics and chivalry gave way to just trying to survive and understand a broken world.
Please keep this quality of discussion and content going, our community could benefit greatly with his kind of even-minded dialogue and evidence of what’s already saturated our media and entertainment in other forms. (Not hard to do, given how you do every video I’ve seen).
Thanks for the time you put into all you post for us.
"Those tieflings are gonna steal our potions."
"Goddamn it, Frank, the town wizard gave a fucking house sapience last week, I don't give a shit about a horned human probably wearing a corset."
😂
This type of conversation is one I see a lot on tumblr as well, often because people are defending something as innocent as teen romance in fanfic. There's this rise of an almost puritanical ideology in some groups that want topics to never be discussed or imagined. They think exploring topics is the same as committing the acts imagined, in some sort of zero sum game of consequences where fictional events are just as bad as if it was real, and it is the author who is just as bad as an actual person committing such abhorrent acts for daring to explore such topics. It's a bit concerning.
Comments like that on Twitter/facebook/Reddit/Tumblr, are why I wanted to make this video. They are springing up everywhere, and when people band-wagon to jump on the hate train... it's a problem
Again, as long as you're not out to purposely offend your players, it should be a non-issue. If you do offend someone, then simply apologize!
@@Taking20 That type of nonsense comes from liberals. Liberals tend to be lawful evil. That's why they'll die out after Trump wins in 2020.
Also as a Christian I see D&D as a way to reach out to people and I don't even play yet. Besides, some of the greatest stories have a splash of darkness in them. If a game was all sunshine and rainbows it would get bland. Great stories need a healthy mix of both.
@@zacharygadzinski3147 : Honestly they're not liberals, they're just on the left because they're part of a group the current right-wing ostracizes, otherwise they'd be the right. Put a hardcore right-wing extremist christian in a muslim theocracy and he becomes "the left."
In truth the pro-censorship SJWs have a bunch of right-wing philosophies, they're just racist and sexist against the existing right, are extremely authoritarian, are puritanical and most of their actions resemble right-wing extremism. Hell they even teamed up with extreme christians at times to try to ban porn. Even their cancel culture is pretty much similar to the Salem Witch Trials, where innocent people are overwhelmed by puritanical mob rule. They're not the left, they're the wannabe-right.
I mean really... does anyone believe they're actually for equality, or is it just a thinly veiled excuse to justify their own racism/sexism?
"If you're a transgressive edgelord at least once as a young teenager, you're maturing by acting stupidly and learning from it, if you are still a transgressive edgelord at 35 and don't get it, you need medication." I'm going to shock some people but we live in a harsh world, dark things happen right under our noses and pretending that young people are not abused with a resounding "I never heard of it before therefore all those who now step forward must be evil liars !" is the reason why people who come in close contact with such things react in such manner. The internet gets a lot of flak, but they also get things right, it allows people to understand they are not alone, for good or bad. Abuse and similar manners are never trivial. To have them in a game can do more harm than good, just imagine if a game rode roughshod all over something that is dear and sensitive to you ? Our society used to see any admission of problems as a weakness, you just got over it, but the statistics about substance abuse, violence and suicide tell us a different story. Too often things like severe trauma is transformed into something that is "character-building" cf Batman who is a hyper-competent guy because he suffered deep trauma ... that's not how people work. Many are simply crushed by horrible things that happen in their lives. There is another side to the story, it's never a case of "get over it" simply because you are not aware of how deep the wounds may run. It may be a case of hysterionics for you, it can be a living hell for the person you call "puritan" ... Our society is in the process of adjusting, switching from burying it with silence to drawing a line in the sand. It's easy to think our grandfathers didn't have to deal with such matters and therefore we should do the same and suss our conscience by calling uncomfortable truths "conspiracies" ... As dark as your game, or story goes, it's still a fictional representation and it can be done right or false. I have been guilty of some really mysogynistic storytelling, I killed off the girl just to create an emotional response and in retrospect it was a bad idea, I'll gladly admit it. It's easy to see everyone else as fools if you cannot even for a second imagine what they have gone through or are aware of something you are not.
When talking about springing Schindler's List on people, you reminded me of a very bad group viewing of Lolita. It was a mixed group who had wildly different expectations, even though all were told we would be watching the movie and discussing it afterwards. From the viewing to the discussion afterwards it was wildly uncomfortable for a number of people. The Phrase that sticks with me is one of the guys yelling at an English lit professor who taught the book in her classes, "You can not criticize a work of art for what it does not have". The gathering broke up shortly thereafter.
As a DM who has lead many horror and grimdark themed stories: it's all about "don't be an asshole" - the more dark it gets the more important it is to be respectful and aware about the limits and triggers of everyone at the table. It's important to know about these things before hand and not to brush over because one tries to be a shitty edgelord.
Kult, Vampire 5E and several other tabletop RPGs have fantastic rules and suggestions to enact at your table to make sure everyone involved feels save and respected and has fun while diving into dark topics.
Done right, a very dark game can be a beautifully connecting experience to all the players involved and even heighten awareness and empathy.
It makes me really happy to hear someone have a well-articulated response to this topic.
i think this is great topic and you handled it greatly
"Nothing is off limits if the group is on the same page! Except sex. That's bad." *rolls eyes*
I was kind of taken aback by that as well. I don't think it's a bad rule of thumb because so much fiction handles sexual assault so badly (I think GoT used sexual violence gratuitously and in a really ham-fisted way, so if that's someone's frame of reference... yeah, don't) but given my own experience with sexual assault it's... I can't say I think as a theme it's WORSE than everything else mentioned. Perhaps more likely to affect someone at your table (depressingly likely, lmao) but those are the people who should get to make the call about whether those subjects should be addressed.
I think the main thing is you don't want to have to ask if depictions of sexual assaults are going to effect your players personally because you don't want to pressure anyone into talking about their history with sexual violence and abuse. It's just better left out. Besides, fantasy novels often know to reference these things without outright depicting it. For instance describing a character as the offspring of a "kidnapping and forced marriage" rather than rape.
@@chanegun You definitely need to make it clear that nobody needs to explain WHY something is a hard limit for them. If it's on someone's red list, that itself says that the subject is not open for discussion. And I think avoiding graphic depictions is wise, but sometimes euphemising can gloss over the severity of these subjects. Because the trope is so common (even in fantasy aimed at kids), the 'forced marriage' thing can often read to audiences as something much more trivial than the reality of the situation.
It wasn't sex that he thought was off the table, it was descriptions of sexual assault.
Great video on a difficult topic! I love confronting dark themes in my entertainment, but I would never hesitate to cut something that had a lasting negative effect on a player's experience. It's their game, too, I just run it.
"Too dark for our society" how about we go ahead and stop that
Agreed. Games are supposed to be fun, not sanitized. But I suppose it's considered a 'thought crime' these days to imagine a society where 'slaves' exist--you know, like the vast majority of all of human history.
Exactly. We’re adults. How about you act like one and determine for yourself what media is suitable for your own personal tastes instead of trying to prevent others from enjoying it.
@@deploribusrex4480 'Fun' and 'sanitised' aren't mutually exclusive. Some groups may find a game more fun with certain content removed. They might want a break from experiencing that content in their real lives.
@@peterheke I couldn't agree more with you. Let the people (and their DM's) decide what content to have in their games based on what they want and what they enjoy (without feeling pressure to check it against the ideological statutes of the 'Church of Woke.' You are actually making my central point for me. Thank you.
@@deploribusrex4480 Absolutely, though I don't know how said church would even find out if people were running dark content in their games. That mystifies me.
For me, yes always ask your players for triggers/sensitive subjects and let them know you may have some touchy subjects come up. But it's important to tell those stories because we can't just ignore issues or what happened in the past because we can't forget.
As a gm, I think I've gone too far once and I deeply regret it and apologized to my players afterward.
Your comments are useless and I've already reported 3 of them.
Ignore that blight troll.
I agree OP
I personally would also not tolerate players that get offended over content in a fantasy story. I want to be able to create without worrying about the restraints of those with weak hearts. Let those too scared of being exposed to reality have their own space. For me, fantasy is about exploring our own reality and the nature of things - not to deny reality and create my own where everything is as I WISH it to be. I find this approach to creative writing in general to be highly infantile and find it produces extremely boring work.
I was NEVER asked for my triggers before being sexually assaulted as a child. My D&D worlds are created to be MORE dangerous and shocking and exciting than reality, not less. When your FANTASY RPG is less dangerous or upsetting than REAL LIFE you have a serious issue in my opinion.
@@dinnj yes, because replicating the behaviours of one who sexually assaults a child is what people should strive! You should reexamine your arguments.
@@anthonynorman7545 Yeah, including sexual assault in fiction is tantamount to actually sexually assaulting a kid. You're fucked in the head and I feel no need to 'argue' with 'people' like you. I'll put it in my games, there's my explanation. It's not an argument. If you don't agree... going to have to get over it.
Thanks for covering this topic. I recently began a game set in a desert like world that features darker themes. All it took was one good conversation with my group to understand boundaries. I have one hard line with DnD and that's sexual assault, as you discussed.
In the Realms you don't need to go to Menzoberranzan to see certain darker themes. You at least had (if no longer fully have in 5th edition) Thay and Zhentil Keep. And what was done there, especially between classic Red Wizards, pre-Spellplague, could be sometimes much darker, that anything that happens in any drow city ;)
Its too bad adults can't talk like adults anymore. Sadness.
I think you missed the whole point of the video.
SJWs ruin everything
@@Girlhead what was it again?
@Dizzy Gear amen. My generation is filled with special snowflakes who can't handle reality
Yup: one of two campaign settings where I warn my players up front by saying; "This will be a brutal and dangerous game where your characters could die at any moment."
Just Dark Sun and Diablo.
Hell yeah.
I've had arcs where players get confronted with uncomfortable choices with no easy answer where no matter what it kind of sucks.
An easy one was that they were working directly for a kingdom in a wartime scenario. They were sent to deal with a situation with allies of the kingdom.
The allies were slavers, and their slaves were in rebellion, and would declare for their enemies if they won.
A very grown up and mature discussion on the topic. I'm glad you took it upon yourself to talk about it. Makes me a proud to be a member of a community that has other people like you in it.
One of my DMs always hands his players a form on how comfortable we are with certain topics making an appereance on the table so everyone can rate from 1 to 10. And not just dark themes but it also includes more lighthearted questions like "would you be open to roleplay romance?" or " is there any kind of location you would particulary like to visit?". It is simple and the most respectful thing a DM can do.
In my personal experience I mostly play with women and/or lgbt people which usually leaves these kinds of topics out of the table or we just mention them very lightly (off-screen, not explicit at all, etc) because these are subjects that we personally have to deal with in real life. When I play I don't want to deal with things I don't like in the real world, so why would I include them when I can live sexism free, for example? Again, this is just my personal experience and what most of my rpg friends think of the matter. I think thats something worth mentioning: there's a lot of us role players that find these games our safe space and that should be respected. I think someone's real life traumas have a bigger weight than someone else's desire to tell a story that might be hurtful, so please always ask and be kind and understanding to your fellow players. And as the guy said, sexual violence is ALWAYS out of question. But if absolutely everyone in the table is fine with it, go ahead and have fun with your grimdark settings!
This is something i plan to do if i ever play with people i don’t really know (all my groups have been close friends trying out d and d). Thats also one of my issues with having sexism/ect. Sure i as the dm could have every guard question the female fighter as to why she is carrying a sword, but how fun would that be for either of us? We all signed up to kill goblins, no reason to explore topics that she already has to deal with irl.
Well put. Honestly, this is the most professional I’ve ever seen anyone on the topic.
Yes, tell the story if it’s important. But make sure your players are open to it. I cannot stress the importance of a Session Zero, specifically for this reason.
I think dark themes NEED to be present, at least in fantasy games. These are worlds where the line between good and evil is way more distinct than modern society. Just don't glorify them, or make the players embrace them, depending on which theme it is, and how far they take it. Rangers in DnD have a racial enemy, and it's almost trope for characters in the realms to automatically despise orcs, but orcs are a literary manifestation of the wrongs of the world. Does that excuse a barbarian hero for gleefully slaughtering an entire clan, down to the last woman and child, even if the orc clan did kill his wife and children during a raid?
I think it's a matter of what the topic is, under what context, and how deeply it's embraced that needs to be minded.
It's difficult to imagine a fantasy world where you fight a gentle, polite, and pacifist evil.
I'd fully support the slaughter of every orc. They are chaotic evil sacks of shit that create half orcs through rape most of the time. Not even the kids should be spared. Grumssh telling orcs to slaughter also doesn't help their pr.
I agree, I believe the only reason Dark Sun is coming under fire, is because it focuses on the brutality... The brutality that has always been there already...
@@aliendingus1991 It being there and focusing on it are two very different things. Either way, this really shouldn't be a debate. DM asks the players if they're ok with certain themes, they say yes or not, problem solved.
I use ROLEPLAYING games to contemplate over such themes. Saying "X is evil, don't ever come close to it and Y is the truth, you don't need to know anything else" is wrong. The truth lies in looking at both spectrums and all the shades in between. Fiction is a save place, where nobody got hurt and you can look at a topic from multiple different angles.
@@ismirdochegal4804 I disagree and I think a lot of people that have been through certain things would also disagree. It's not up to you or the DM alone to decide for others what is, or is not, an appropriate place to play with various themes. It's the DM's responsibility to discuss the boundaries with all participating players before proceding with a campaign. IF everyone is unanimously alright with it, then and only then, should certain themes be present.
New viewer. Just wanted to say, I agree. Dark topics are risky because they could be triggers, but in a well known group you should have a better idea. Sadly, there are some things that are still huge problems in society, so you may never know if the people in your group find them to be triggers. At the same time, dark topics in DnD allow for people to face injustices they can't in real life and could be very morally rewarding.
Just you talking about these topics started to bring some tears to my eyes. That being said, I'm just a highly emotional person who has probably watched to many abandoned animal or starving kids in Africa commercials. I have suffered through forced sexual situations a few times in my life but I still do enjoy a darker themed realistic campaign, I keep a box of tissues for my d&d sessions lol. The only time I ever had a serious problem with it when the dm was going into vivid details of an orc sexually forcing a young human woman. It was in a small part my fault because I did agree to a very dark campaign and never disclosed my past. I like these darker themes because they are things that would have likely happened in real life and it to me is a reminder of how far we have grown and how far we have to go. Just like another commenter said, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
I hope your games have become more fun and enjoyable. Thanks for commenting, it was nice to hear that I was not alone in my discomfort regarding these topics, and yet I still chose to watch the video and sat through it.
Lmfao
Cody, I love and appreciate the thought and effort you put into your vids. They're not just Opinion Time stories, they're well crafted, well argued, and clearly articulated positions that I would find difficult to argue against, even if I wanted to.
Props, bro.
I need to play a Pacifist in my next game. GM: "Role for Imitative." Me: "No"
You can still heal your allies and shield them/ run hide and invisify yourself. See Xanathar's Guide for a Redemption Oath Paladin.
Jared Moser
“no I shall not fight. We shall talk instead.”
Therapy with the BBEG
That would get old for everyone including yourself after about 20 minutes
@@codypatton2859 Being a Pacifist in DnD is like asking a lion to stop eating meat.
Not easily done, but can be achieved with good planning. Hiring bodyguards/buying guard dogs could be one way... It can really challenge the player, but can also annoy other players if you can't make your character useful... So, if you do run a pacifist, don't go into it lightly...
I like it when ur mohawk lines up with the green screen mountain.
i personally think this is the best of all your work! you nailed it on the head. your argument is perfect. in my personal opinion, the world needs to grow up. we, as humanity, need to discuss and explore these to[pics if we are ever to truly learn from them. thank you for this!
Me as DM: "Alright guys, we're about to start this awesome wholesome adventure where you guys are basically your own fellowship of the ring."
My players: "Okay cool. I just finished drafting my racist, sexist, violent slave-keeper character."
Sounds like an average Saturday evening to me.
One of the people who wants to play at my table for my first campaign wants to be a comically racist orc like hes racist against every race even other orcs
As someone who doesn't like anime at all in a group of weebs and pseudo-weebs, I made a racist ghost who inhabits a suit of armor as my character. He hates human animal hybrids, like nekos. And why? Because now I get to vent frustration with the weeb stuff while also letting them win the day with the power of friendship.
Ok...so, this is a balanced and reasonable approach to the topic..
Thanks... but were you expecting otherwise?
@@Taking20 ...LOL...no. That's why I watch this and your let's play channel.
@@Taking20 This video and this presentation of the topic has brought me back to your channel
im glad you made this video, because a few players from my group recently desided they want to do super dark side campaign away from the others with no suger coating, i told them ill do it but if it translates to our main game where the others are not a fan of these topics then i will have to stop it and give you a warning and if you continue have to kick them from the main party, cause i know they have a taste for very dark horror and exstremely graphic movies and books and crazy stuff like Schindler's list and others that hit the topics of this video. Just wanted to say THANK YOU SO MUCH, this makes me more comfortable writing up a campaign for them, to make them enjoy a game style they want to play
This was a really well made video. The way I see it, there is a place for anything in D&D, but you have to keep your players in mind.
It’s sad that you have to put this many disclaimers before you have a rational discussion.
You gotta gently scare off those that cannot handle reality or you break them
@@Aphotic_One can we do more of that second one? Their explosive failure will hopefully make it apparent that maybe there are normal people who are too crazy to acknowledge the opinions of, beyond that they exist.
i said the same thing
@@Aphotic_One If a hypothetical situation is enough to break someone, sometimes breaking them is what you must do.
Golvic I know what you’re supposed to be referring to, but what you said is pretty awful, because you aren’t just referring to people getting angry about this sort of stuff anymore. People with PTSD can get set off, or “break” (which is already a bad word to use when describing someone’s mental state in general) easily by hypothetical situations, even just similar sensory experiences that aren’t actually connected.
Remember how the first side-quest in 5e’s Curse if Strahd is about a cannibalistic cult that worships a dead infant.
??? I need to give CoS a try.
The world is ready for Dark Sun, because it will help bring awareness to these subjects and help people vent on their frustrations about them.
None of this should be a means to avoid sitting down as gaming table and negotiating out session experiences. A 'shortcut' rush into darker themes. Great point in your video - not having something like this slid in unannounced rather than having these things be known about sans specific details. I think it's fair to be open to discussing these issues beforehand if you don't know the players/groups. Really love this video.
the game i dm is an EASILY mature game, heavily focusing on some of the themes mentioned, and my players enjoy it a lot. i think it's about how tastefully it's included? if you're throwing in a heavy subject for shock value it can be annoying or offensive but personally i test waters and let people know beforehand that the things might come up. i've never had an issue making someone uncomfortable.
Can I play in your campaign? Real talk tho, I want to grow and enjoy participating in the story, not just find a happy place. Your style sounds good.
*i've never had an issue making someone uncomfortable.*
If you don't feel threatened or disturbed, then you are not living a real adventure, where tragedies like the Bloody Wedding take place(TPK) or your actions cause people to starve to death in the Winter and you find their bodies.(The Hound)
I love putting players through consequences.
@@spiritchannels our campaign is irl, otherwise i'd 100% be down to add you in
Try capitalizing where it is proper. You look stupid when you do not use proper grammar.
To some extent I also think as a player you also should have the maturity to take something the DM does with grace. If you hear something offensive that the DM didn't intend or that is only offensive to you... Then perhaps lighting their house on fire isn't the BEST reaction.
Got an add so this is good..
Slavers A1 to 4 -- best set of modules ever
Thank you.
I am a new GM who had only played with one group. What was to be kept out of the game was never a conversation I've had.
I really appreciate you making me realize how important it is to have this conversation with people before the start of the campaign, and even giving me the framework to have that conversation in a whole and healthy way with my new party of brand new players.
I bought myself a t-shirt as a thank you for this video, a thank you for this channel, and to rep and recommend you to my friends. (Also, the alignment is system is totally fake news. Worse, it encourages shadow character builds.)
I went from fan to hardcore fan today.
Thanks again.
Keep it up.
An example of how a mistake could be made without these conversations:
I am someone who gets very emotional when children get hurt, even in fictional media. However, for me, this would be a very great way to get me deeply invested in the campaign.
I am now beginning to GM, and without this conversation would have just assumed that everyone in my party would have been effected by that the same way as me, becuase I never really thought to deeply about any of this since it is fictional.
If someone in my party had a history with very real child abuse or some other form of child harm truama, they wouldn't have become invested in the game, they would have been sucked into the emotional memories and all the fun and connection to the game could have been lost, and I would never have known.
I am in a D&D Group and we are actively playing through dark sun, we are converting from 3.5 to 5e in a public place. we feel no need to cover aspects up or gloss over any parts, we embraced certain parts into OUR story and made it more real for ourselves. we play in a space with around 8-14 people between the age of 17 to 30 and nobody cares at all about what is said when we play.
If people have a problem with certain topics in games, media or stories then its for them to work around, not for the rest of us who can talk about "difficult" topics and NOT feel shamed to say these words or talk about these things.
If YOU think its inappropriate then that's YOUR opinion and not everybody's.
I think that anything that could be touchy should be discussed before a game. I think, though, that dark themes (all of them) can be included in any story. They are all real and ignoring them doesn't make them go away.
I enjoy dark themes because it makes the game feel real. Not everyone is down for that but I don't believe in imposing limitations on those who like the gritty realism.
Upon making a statement that if anything I did in game might offend anyone, I apologize beforehand, as that is not my intention... To which one of my players responded, I take offense to your apology!
I'd love to see another video more directed on the Dark Sun campaign setting
When going to hell isn't enough, Darksun...
Hell is oddly... not so bad if you get used to the weather.
12:30 "Well I guess he had it coming."
"We all got it coming."
If you wanted to address dark themes in your video that was definitely the right movie to reference.
Session zero.
"So guys, is there anything you would not like to appear in the story?"
"I will tell you now there will be issues with slavery, violence, racism and maybe some sexual abuse brought up in this campaign. Is anyone uncomfortable with these and would rather they are not described?"
This is what session zero is for.
I've seen session zeros where a player told a DM they weren't comfortable with vampires.
He had intended to run a curse of strahd campaign.
@@haresay1568 Ouch lol There go those plans.
The way I view it is you are in control of your own character. Dont like racism, speak out and fight against it in the campaign. Dont like slavery, free slaves when you find them, dont like rape, punish those who have commited these grave sins. Same with the vampire thing. You might be in a campaign with vampires but that is your enemy and it makes more sense for you to be there fighting to eradicate it then refuse to see it in a campaign.