Making Scrolls Fun Again for 5e
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- Опубликовано: 27 окт 2024
- Today's video is more of a discussion than anything else, and I want to look at a few choices for new homebrew or house rules for the D&D 5e table. Let's talk about spell scrolls and wands and how to make them more fun, including how to give dungeon masters a little more room as well.
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I genuinely miss Use Magic Device.
I would be fine with a feat. Maybe a +1 to a mental stat would make the feat more alluring. Also, instead of a straight +3, have it add the PC's proficiency bonus.
A good suggestion. Pinned.
@@Taking20 Alternatively you could also have the proficiency bonus be the level of the scroll you can cast without a check.
Another solid idea Karsten. Lots of great feedback so far!
@@Taking20 A thought I saw lower down was to make the check also allow Arcana add to the check
though if it's a clerical scroll, you might use religion, Druids don't write things down so I'd not do Nature for that
but I definitely like Karsten's idea for the proficiency spell level, but if a DM doesn't do that, I'd say that for sure all 1st level spells can be done without a check minimum
though for all of this it's important to note that Use Magic Device, is an ability of the Thief subclass
@@Taking20 Or create an imbue spell to allow a spell to be held in a piece of mundsain equipment as a charge. If someone says no "contingency"
I say remove class restrictions and repurpose Arcana skill to also be Use Magic Device. There are already too many Intelligence skills vying for proficiency and MANY players seem to avoid those like hell. Plus, Arcana skill is already needed to write scrolls per Xanathars, so I think it fits.
My thought was to just make using a scroll a task of reading it. So just make it an arcana check of say 10+the scrolls level. Or maybe 8 if you wanted to them to be even more accessible. With the option of reading it ahead of time, maybe 1 minute +the spells level, to guarantee it's activation for the next 1/10/24 hours, however you want it.
@DrCinnabon I agree. This would be my solution and one I think I will incorporate into my next campaign. This feels like the simpler version of the add UMD solution and makes it feel more character driven, like at some point you as a character decided to study the arcane arts for the purpose of using scrolls and wands and such. Along the way you learned other things that may prove useful ("Oh! I've heard of these!")
Yup, this is the best answer. Desoite the apparent objections that "it'd discourage low int characters", I kinda see that as a feature. If someone fails that roll, make them roll on the wild magic surge table. Int is clearly the dump stat, to the point that I give out a free tool/language proficiency for each +1 modifier, and it's still kind if a dump stat.
There are plenty of ways for high Charisma characters to participate in combat and social encounters, same thing for wisdom. But intelligence is a lot narrower, except for wizards/artificers. So if "can do magic good" is the 'combat' application of intelligence, then let it be an Intelligence (Arcana) checks to use magic items. Makes sense in a rules accuracy way, priority goes to classes that train in magic, and gives a reason for my wizards to use arcana more than once a session.
I think it should be a performance check for bard scrolls, religion for cleric/druid, arcana for artificer/wizard
@@override367 You could also add Warlock to the Religion list, as knowledge of most patrons would fall under that skill. In additon, I'd recommend shifting the Druid list to Nature, and using that for the Ranger list as well.
My group has had 0 restrictions on anyone casting spells of any level through scrolls for over 5 years. Scrolls are consumables, their cost is that they are gone after they are used and take time and money to replenish. Scrolls of Sending being sold on the street corner for a handful of gold, scrolls of Counter Spell being common enough that any major enemy or their better supplied minions have 2-3 per fight.
Being prepared by having things that are normally not in your repertoire for curveballs like a bandit having a scroll of Greater Invisibility or Dimension Door is rewarding in its own right. Limitations come in with lack of funding or time to prepare those higher-level scrolls. Essentially, it balances itself if everyone is doing it and you keep high level scrolls elusive. It helps that 9th level spells just don't exist inside the setting we use, so we don't have to worry about someone mass producing Meteor Swarms to sell as a magical arms dealer or something. Also gave use to the weirder and more magical languages because you have to be able to read the scrolls to use them, so stuff like Draconic, Giantish, Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial, Primordial, and Sylvan have uses outside of their very niche application in a general campaign.
I like that!
You need to make an Arcana check, UNLESS you know the language the scroll is written in
Makes sense
What I made on my tables is: You can make/find a "pre-cast" scroll, that means the spell has already been cast, the user only aims it. It would use the creators DC/Spell Attack Bonus. Anyone can use it and it's up to the DM (in this case me) what they will get (since its mostly found as loot). Also to make these, it would cost at least 2x the usual to make a scroll. Also I switch the Inteligence check for normal scrolls to whatever is your spell casting modifier (if you dont have one, like a champion fighter, its whatever the player chooses between Int, Wis or Cha).
This is essentially the Spell Storing Item function of Artificers and that would be a cool way to encourage that class at your table, should you want to. They've never been my particular class of choice, but 5e made them pretty great and then just kinda forgot about them. I'd love to see more support for this class.
This is basically what I run at my table
Using the spell casting modifier is the way it's meant to be as far as I know. Intelligence isn't the default casting stat. I don't know where he came up with intelligence. Even the rules he showed in the video don't say intelligence; they say speel casting modifier.
I do the same thing
That's how scrolls used to work. All the magic is already in them and done, you just need to release it with the trigger word. That was in 3.5 I think.
One benefit of having intelligence as the casting stat, when you open scroll use to all classes. It is no longer a one-trick pony. People might not want to dump intelligence because they want to be able to use scrolls effectively.
I like the idea of introducing a “Use Magic Device” skill to 5e. Not all casters would understand magic wands or scrolls (such as a sorcerer who’s abilities are supposed to be in-born gifts), so if it’s an open skill, that would be awesome
Don’t arcane trickster rogues have exactly that at some point?
Correction: it’s the thief subclass on PHB:p97
@@SamuelJohnsonBungie that lets them bypass class restrictions, which while useful, still doesn't fix that scrolls are overall useless to them
Given casters can use spell scrolls above their own casting level, it seems only reasonable that any PC might use a scroll. "Use Magic Device" as a skill seems an excellent fit.
I think something we're overlooking is not having it be a particular "skill" which is assigned to one particular mental stat but instead have it be a "Tool proficiency" which would allow you to use a mental stat of your choice plus your proficiency bonus.
@@X23Natalie You beat me to it, I was going to suggest the exact same thing
A group I played in actually did open a fight with everyone casting fireball. We were hunting a young adult white dragon, and when we came to its lair, it was sleeping. We managed to pass Stealth checks. The sorcerer, Wildfire druid, and my wizard cast Fireball. The Hexblade warlock had been carrying around a necklace of fireballs for quite a while. Didn't use it once, until that opening salvo, and then he used ALL the charges. Just threw the whole damn thing. We still managed to lose our sorcerer during that fight, but the dragon's health was instantly halved right away and it's something we fondly look back on.
I give out two different types of items: spell scrolls, and spell items. Spell scrolls are as normal, but spell items are items that contains a spell that usually anyone can activate to produce the spell effect before it crumbles to dust. I also give out similar items that have one-time boosts to stats or other buffs. Consumables are a great way to give players powerful magic without permenently altering their 'powerlevel'.
I also do something similar, spell stones. Usable by anyone
And a thought about Magic Initiate feat, add in that it allows one to atune to items from that class.
I like it. Totally stealing this for my list of house rules.
My house rule is that any class can use spell scrolls
if it is in your spell list it works automatically. If it isn't, you make an arcana check (DC=10 + spell level).
I haven't had issues so far, because as DM I have full control of which scrolls I give away
This is what I do. It works great.
Personally I've treated scrolls like potions, both are single use and misc spells.. If the spell list says a cure wounds (1d8 + mod) is equal to a scorching ray, and the item list suggests a healing potion (2d4 + 2) is equal to a scroll of scorching ray, the math adds up in my book. Scrolls 2nd-3rd level are uncommon magical items, 100-500gp accordingto xanathar. If they want to spend an entire hoard for the ability to open 1 encounter with fireballs, that seems fair to me. In my experience it makes found scrolls valuable to the party as an emergency button, while being pricey enough that they don't become reliant on them.
I also make the spell scroll require the casting stat of whoever the author was, for both casting and copying. A cleric doesn't use the same stat as the wizard and doesn't access their magic the same way, and therefore wouldn't write their spell instructions the same way. Also leads to situations where it's more practical to just give the scroll to the paladin than try to copy it, because your Arcana (INT) is +8 but your Arcana (CHA) is +2.
Dude is consistently one of my favorite creators/influencers for the community. Keep up the great work man I love your mindset and your perspective.
Great idea! I use arcana checks whenever a player wants to use a magic item or read a higher level scroll. The feat could give arcana proficiency or expertise if you already have it and the ability to read scrolls from other classes!
I have done this for a while too. Players can attempt to cast a scroll of any class by using Arcana check DC 10 + spell level. Playing this way, I found most of the melee classes were still not interested in scrolls, but it really opened them up for my druid and sorcerer when I ran a pre written adventure which mostly has spell scrolls for wizard spells.
I've expanded on scrolls a little more. I have three different kind of scrolls in my game based on who made the scroll.
First is arcane diagrams, this requires you to make arcane runic gestures in the air while saying the activation word. They require an arcana skill check to cast DC 10 + Spell Level.
Second are divine prayers, they need to be chanted rhythmically with the base prayer not usually on the scroll as it's assumed a person of faith would know it. These require a religion skill check to cast DC 10 + Spell Level.
The last is bardic sheet music, this must be sung or played with a musical instrument so requires both an instrument proficiency and a performance skill check to cast DC 10 + Spell Level.
This is based on who wrote the scroll. So wizards and artificers make arcane diagrams. Clerics, and druids make divine prayers. Bards make bardic sheet music. I don't allow other classes to scribe scrolls unless they take Ritual Caster, then they pick their style (arcane, divine, bardic). I allow wizards to scribe scrolls from their school at a reduced cost, same as copying from a spell book.
This system lets anyone be good with scrolls with just a simple skill investment. It makes the underused performance skill valuable, and it makes a Rogue with Expertise potentially one of the best spell casters, bringing back the feel of "Use Magic Device".
With wands, rods, and staves; I allow everyone to use them without limit, and I make them much more rare in my games.
Potions are more common, with potions of many spells existing in my games. They're basically re-skinned scrolls. To make them requires a nature check to know what ingredients you need, and a medicine check to mix them properly. Identifying potions found in loot is nearly impossible without labels or the identify spell. Anyone can drink potions, drinking multiple potions requires Con Saves to see if you create a magical mishap.
These are my little tweaks. Let me know what you think.
@@arklainquirk sounds good, my logic was that druids where just a different kind of religion, so they could flavour their divine prayers as runic tablets if they like; they're still mechanically the same.
Use magic device definitely feels like the best approach to me as it allows for players to invest either a little (proficiency) or a lot (expertise) into being able to cast scrolls. It also feels like it would be applicable to solving many magic device related traps found in game which feels better than relying on Arcana or investigation only.
I've added spell beads as a homebrew into my games. They are basically scrolls but what I've done is made them a throwable item.
Make an attack against a target with a range equal to the contained spells range if the spell does not require a target this automatically succeeds. The target can chose to be hit by this attack.
If the attack hits then the contained spell is cast on that target or location. If the spell requires a saving throw it is 8 + your attack modifier.
If your class is able to cast spells you are instead of attacking able to extract the magic from the bead and cast the spell yourself using your spellcasting stat instead.
I'm running an Out of the Abyss game and the players are currently in Blingdenstone (a deep gnome community) and the deep gnomes use something called spell gems. It occurred to me that the way spell gems works could work really well here. Basically only casters can put a spell into the stone, but anyone can cast out of it. The spell save DC and spell attack bonus are based on the rarity of the stone rather than the ability of the person using it, so you can use it regardless of how many mental stats you dumped.
I like this idea it is also similar to the ring of spell storing. I think a magic item like the gems for scrolls and other spells to be able to give it to non spellcasters and a feat to use wands for non spellcasters
Edit: also maybe add staffs and rods?
Yes UMD! Miss it so much. Also, I would just say that the stat check was based on what list the scroll was on, if it is on multiple lists let the caster use the better stat for them.
Another thing you could add to that scroll savant feat that would make it appealing to normal casters to also take it, for more than just high level scroll use, would be to have it reduce the cost of scribing scrolls.
Ooooooooooo I LIKE that idea of making scribing cheaper!
@@Taking20 If you allow any class to craft scrolls from their list. Artificers get a amazing buff here at level 10 for scrolls up to SL3 so be aware of just how CHEAP you make it for them.
I use Arcana as UMD. Anyone can use a scroll, w/ DC 10+spell level. If it's on your spell list and cast it normally you automatically succeed. Failure is just the scroll is consumed (i'd use scroll failures depending on the table). Thief's ability "Use Magic Device" adds "you can automatically succeed on using a scroll of 3rd level or lower". I think it really opens play without things being too difficult or inaccessible.
Okay, I have a pitch based on what you talked about with use magic device. Tools.
What if there was a tool kit and matching proficiency that allowed non-casters to cast scrolls or attune to wands? Something like "The Artificers Toolbelt" or "The Hedge Mage's Monocle". A lot of tools change which stat they use depending the action that's being attempted, so you can have the flexible int/wis/cha DM determination and it allows someone to invest into it as part of their background which I think could lead to some awesome RP! Maybe your parent was a Wizard and taught you tricks to casting even though you aren't the brightest bulb, something like that.
This also naturally links in with the "Skilled" feat, allowing people to pick it up as a feat like in the other suggestion but without the extremeness of it being isolated in it's own feat.
For my games I allow anyone to be able to case off of spell scrolls. I use Arcana checks for my DC attempts as my base. It gives my players a chance to come up with wild and wacky ways to use the scrolls if they succeed but failing might do something different. I do like the Use magic device idea though. Might try it with my next campaign.
At my table everyone can use scrolls with a check. Arcane, religion, or nature check depending on the spell. 10+spell level.
If they fail it causes a random magic sure from the Dungeon Coaches d300 list.
It makes it fun fun fun
The way I do it: if the spell is in your class spell list and is of a level you can normally cast, you just cast it (no matter if is not prepared / learned). If it is of a higher level, make the check with your spellcast ability. If you are a spellcaster and the spell is of another class list, make the check with your spellcast ability. If you are not a spellcaster, just straight inteligence (arcana check). This boosts the importance of inteligence a bit, wich is usually just a dump stat, while also meaking it easier for spellcasters than the RAW intelligence check for them.
I really like the idea of using Arcana skill.
This is great. Basically what Ive been doing but i never thought to let spellcasters use their spellcasting, which is great. I agree that its a great way to make intelligence a non-dump stat.
I felt the same way as you did about the limitations on scrolls, and so I came up with the following feat that has proven to be a good compromise between the base limitation and the "everyone can cast using a spellscroll":
Arcane Savant
Choose a school of magic : Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation.
You learn two cantrips from that school of magic.
In addition, you gain proficiency in Arcana and the ability to identify and use spell scrolls that contains spells of that school of magic. To use a Spell scroll in this way you must succeed an Arcana Ability Check. The DC of this check equals 10 + the spell level.
I use Arcana checks in my game for scrolls, not limited by prof. So sure the monk can try to use the scroll but his bonus is probably 0 or +1 while a wizard who's studied magic is much more likely to muddle through a cure wounds spell scroll.
A half feat that allows to ignore class restrictions to attune wands, rods, and staves as well as gives advantage on Arcana checks to use a scroll might be pretty great though.
Done a few different things with spell scrolls in my games over the years.
1. Anyone can use a spell scroll but takes an arcana check bringing back sorta use magic device.
2. Put both normal spell scrolls as they are used and a more expensive variant that allows anyone to cast period with no requirements.
3. Something akin to 2. To where it only costed a bit more but instead of for free it cost the person using it to spend a hit die. They'd take the damage rolled to signify how much blood they used to fuel the spell.
3 is pretty much where I've been keeping it lately in my home games. While for wands staves rods and other magical trinkets to produce spells. I've added a bunch that don't need spellcaster or class attunement. But they are essentially like the store brand version of a named product. Less charges, not attunement, and don't regain charges.
With regard to watching youtube and commenting, I did something I don’t normally do, I re-watched this one before I commented.
I like what you are saying, and I agree with in general and the reason for re-watching, was that I couldn’t understand where there was a problem. There isn’t one, the game mechanics are all already there. There must be some limiting factor though, because if absolutely anyone is allowed to use any magic item, particularly scrolls, the next thing you have is a party of high-level fighters, in heavy armour, with martial weapons, taking it in turn to stand back from the combat, to blast the opposition with spells from scrolls and wands, just because they can read.
Firstly, with wands, in D&D Beyond, the most restricting requirement for use is “Requires attunement by a spellcaster”. Personally, I have always read this as, not including innate magic (which I interpret as powers and not spells) or spells cast only through invoking a magic item, you are a spell caster if you can cast a spell, i.e., you have taken the time and a little effort to learn how to cast a spell or spells. Whether that is through a feat or from your class, subclass or even background, it counts, as long as it is not just because you decided to be a tiefling or a drow. Variant Human even allows you to fix this at will from first level, on the least magical of all races.
Secondly Scrolls, they present more of an issue. Unless Google has lied to me, these two phrases both say the same thing, “Ces deux textes disent la même chose”, “Ez a két szöveg ugyanazt mondja” and without the need to understand the translation, I could make a good fist at reading them both out loud, so a quick Int save, to determine if the fighter can pronounce words that they can read and with no other qualification, they can cast spells from scrolls because they can read.
That is where it fall down for me. These two phrases also say the same thing, „Ова два дела текста говоре исто“ and „টেক্সট এই দুই টুকরা একই জিনিস বলে”, there is no way on earth, without significant study, that I could read them out loud or even in my head for that matter and that is how I think of the languages used by spellcasters, each different class has it’s own spell language. This makes sense too, because why would anyone spend lots of time and lots of money scribing a scroll, that just anyone could find and use, just because they can read common.
I know that this is a game and real life rules don’t need to apply, but I think common sense dictates that there has to be some limitation. The Cleric in my current game took the Magic Initiate (sorcerer) feat when he last levelled up. He had a good reason for why he could do this and he even role-played that prior to the level up, so for me, he is now able to cast his chosen sorcerer spells and I have no issue with him using sorcerer spell scrolls, as he has learned to read the language, but he will still need to conform to the rules when using scrolls he doesn’t have the spell levels for i.e. an Int save to make sure that he doesn’t trip over the words he is not used to. No bonuses though, because why should he have a better chance of passing the test than a sorcerer would have.
Another advantage of UMD is that it would surely be an Int-skill and bolster 5e's worst dump stat a little.
I'm pretty sure in 3e it was a CHA skill, which never made sense to me at the time. 5e has done a better job of CHA being the stat that represents willpower and personal drive, rather than just the "who's pretty and charming" stat.
@@christopheregger1091 in con clusion, 3rd edition is actually the worst edition ever made
Call it what you will. Arcane Savant, Magic Prodigy, but I think a feat that allows the character to add their prof bonus to reading scrolls and allows them to use scrolls outside of their class would be dope. I think it would be default int unless you already have a casting stat, or maybe just the mental stat you determine when you pick up[ this feat. Maybe also give them a bonus to arcana when determining the effect of a scroll, glyph or item.
I've been allowing scrolls to be by anyone ever since I started DMing. mostly because I missed the rule about the restrictions. Gotta say, giving spell scrolls to non-casters has been really fun and it has never broke the game.
I look forward to a follow up video compiling some of the most frequent feedback recommendations that will come out of this.
In a game I'm playing in my DM created a magic item that solves this problem in a way our group found fairly satisfying. It's a Scroll Casters Gauntlet. An uncommon magic item that allows the wielder to cast any spell scroll placed within it so long as the level is equal to or lower than their proficiency bonus. It takes a bonus action to swap the scroll out or put a new one in so usually you can cast it on the same round if it wasn't already loaded. It requires atunement.
I just make it an arcana check if you’re not a spellcaster or it’s not on your spell list.
Simple scaling too:
Level 1: DC 10
Level 2: DC 12
Level 3: DC 14
Level 4: DC 16
Level 5: DC 18
Level 6: DC 20
Level 7: DC 22
Level 8: DC 24
Level 9: DC 26
Keeps the truly game breaking spells out of most non casters’ reach but rewards flavorful Int and/or Arcana investment in otherwise non casting players, and allows for an exciting Hail Mary Fireball to be challenging but not by any means impossible to pull off for characters not built for it.
For my games I generally make scrolls, wands and other magic itens have requirements dependent of who actually crafted them. A Scroll of Druidic Cure Wounds uses a Wisdom check, while a Scroll of Sorcerous Darkness uses Charisma. It is a bit more work to think about the class of the items, but it makes other characters outside the normal spellcasters able to use their secondary stats to some degree without immediatly locking of the low Int chars
I’d start with Arcana checks with a sliding DC based on spell level. I’d also make Healing Word or cantrip scrolls automatic successes and maybe even available at finer retailers. Perhaps being attuned would give advantage to the Arcana check, while studying the scroll with a spell caster could potentially open up the Magic Initiate feat, with that spell being made available once per long rest.
I’m still a fairly new GM but something what I do is allow my players to spend their downtime to train there stats and proficiencys. So a DM could determine a time that someone would take to learn to be able to “read the runes” on a spell scroll based on the ability score modifiers. And a good way to balance stuff like this would be to have the scrolls be a little bit more scarce. Because if anyone can learn how to cast spell, some commoners or random NPCs would probably be more likely to pick these things up in local shops and things of the like.
I totally agree! I've always found the Eldritch-Knight or Arcane-Trickster to be less fun than a 3.5/Pathfinder multiclass for this very reason.
Sine we have been playing many editions we occasionally mix ruled from memory with the new ones. This happened for scrolls aswell. We houseruled it to the following: In order to use a scroll you must be able to cast spells. (from your class, a feat or specialization etc). Arcane scroll can only be used if you can cast arcane spells and the same for divine scrolls. The save dc is always based on the person usingin the scroll. Pretty easy to remember.
I’ve been running an “anyone can cast a scroll, using whatever spell list (and appropriate casting ability) you wish; same with spell book pages but at Disadvantage since they aren’t formatted for scroll use”, and it works great, but honestly half the challenge is getting your players to remember that they HAVE consumables!
I remember a rule in the DMG about using other stats that aren’t assigned to the skill, this are your Intelligence (Medicine), Strength (Intimidation), Dexterity (Performance), etc.
You could always allow your players to use their spellcasting stat + Arcana proficiency, a sorcerer just “knows” how to do stuff, warlocks get whispers from their patron on how to decode the scroll, and clerics and druids pray to higher powers to unlock it.
We had a Ranger who always like to fiddle and play with stuff. That guy set off more traps than anyone just by being careless. Once, while playing with a wand he "accidentally" activated it, randomly targeted another PC (who failed their save) and paralyzed them (for the duration of the spell). The table exploded in laughter, excitement and a little bit of name calling. In short, a perfect session.
Since then I decided that Wizards who make scrolls can opt have an automatic Read Magic spell activate as part of the scroll when it is opened. The player reading the scroll may not know what they are reading but there is a chance that the spell could be activated and used. Someone like a Wizard still has to identify the spell (interpret the writings) so they know what they are casting but anyone can read it and activate it (as long as the Read Magic is part of the scroll as mentioned).
Diablo did this really well. I also believe there was a A D&D 2nd addition Diablo II rules set or campaign setting that had rules for any characters to use Scrolls or spell books…
At my games anyone can cast any scroll, with a spellcasting ability check. Or you auto succeed if you are the same class as the scroll and have the slot unlocked to cast it.
The check depends on the class of the scroll (not the spell). You can find wizard scrolls that use intelligence, or blessed artefacts requiring wisdom, etc.
Depending on the creator of the item, you can find a druidic or wizard Confusion scroll for example.
Long ago in a BX game I gave the party wizard an eternal scroll that would manifest a new random spell a dawn every day. The player loved it and got to play with some unusual and uncommon spell that might not normally be picked.
This sounds like a great "magic item" ...thanks 😁
I do love the it being a feat.
My first instinct was Arcane Reader. Being able to read magical glyphs, from scrolls to arcane traps to wards and passwords. Granting a +1 in INT, and being able to not just read scrolls from a class (That way, if there's overlap, it's still narrowed) but getting advantage from it sounds like so much fun!
I had an idea to have spell scrolls available to everyone, just that for anyone casting outside their spell list, it takes that many turns per spell level (3rd level takes 3 full actions) and then the required intelligence check. This makes it impractical for a non spell caster during combat, but doable outside of combat.
I think I like this one most! It doesn't throw out balance entirely but still has it all open for anyone to cast whatever scroll they get their hands on. Definitely like this one!
Here's my homebrew for spell scrolls:
Any person may use a spell scroll. If the caster has no spell slots of the scroll’s level or no levels in the scroll’s class, they must make an ability check using the scroll’s class’s spellcasting ability against a DC of 10 + spell level, and you may add your proficiency bonus if you have proficiency in said ability’s saving throw. For example, a fighter and a rouge trying to use a wizard spell scroll of 2nd level must make an intelligence ability check against DC 12. The fighter would make a straight intelligence check, but the rouge would make an intelligence check and add their proficiency modifier since the rouge is proficient in intelligence saving throws. No spell slot is consumed when a spell scroll is used.
If it's a spell like shield that's on multiple spell lists, I think it's fair to be able to pick which ability to use for this check.
Also I'm still not sure that 10+spell level is the right DC. For my games I want scrolls too be fairly reliable, but still kinda chaotic.
Reminds me of the Use the Force check in Star Wars Saga Edition, which you have to do before you can use any Force Power. I like the idea that Scrolls allow you to use spells from outside your list on a successful Arcana Check, perhaps it could be changed to allow spellcasting modifiers instead.
Hey! I’m not the only one who played that game!
I like the skill option, but for those wishing to keep 5e simple, just lump it in with Arcana. Arcana is (usually) intelligence based and has proficiency baked in. If you want to add a feet, just modify skill expert - Magic item expert - +1 intelligence, proficiency and expertise in Arcana, can attune to any item regardless of restrictions, if wizard can write any scroll into spellbook as wizard spell.
In my games everyone is able to use Scrolls and Wands, once they're identified. I'm basically handling them like granades in a FPS Game - they're a very rare Resource that's very powerful.
I have homebrew scroll rules. I let anyone use any scroll. If the spell is not from the users caster type (or the user is not a spell caster), they attempt to cast it cast with disadvantage choosing a spell casting modifier from the spell. They have to roll a dc10+spell level to cast the spell and on a failure the scroll simply disintegrates.
I like the idea of having a feat that allows a player to cast any scroll.
I'm a long time player/DM since AD&D. I've found both skills and feats used this way to be a lot of fun. I was just thinking if someone wanted to control the pace of scroll casting you could increase the casting times by 1 action for non-class related spells. Maybe lowering the number of activations per round of the wands as well. For even more control you could have some scrolls in different languages so the chances of mishaps go up or limits casters on their ability to read the scroll.
I hadn't even considered using language restrictions for scrolls. That could breath new life into a spell like "comprehend languages" or "Eyes of the Rune Keeper" invocation. Or it could feel like a very stupid restriction.
I just starting running a rule where anyone can use any spell scroll. I starting passing out scrolls and potions more often and told my players at the start that if they use their scrolls and potions often they'll get them more often. Its fun to see players use them to solve interesting problems.
I have a ranger who's been carrying a flesh to stone scroll and after a couple months, she used it to beat a false hydra I ran, it was the best part of the campaign so far and it was a subquest I came up with to slow down the party so I could get prepared and plan ahead.
I've never used attunement in my games. I go off the 3.5 item slot rules. I have use magic device as a skill that some backgrounds can choose as well as rogues, wizards, bards, and artificers. I run it where if you don't have proficiency in the skill you can still roll but with disadvantage. a fail means the item doesn't work and a 1 means the item breaks and a roll on the wild magic chart is made.
one of the cool things about 5e is that you can pretty much have whatever party makeup you want. giving everyone access to scrolls and such cements that into place
Use Magic Device! But as a feat that allows you to use and attune to any magical item (including scrolls) regardless of class. Allows for more combo potential and is properly priced for the power potential. Lets your wizard use a wand of healing, scroll of haste for the fighter, Staff of the Adder for your Monk etc.
My approach is simple; open everything up, screw the intelligence checks. I keep the spells in my wands at 3rd or lower since I like to give a recharge to them, and will usually let scrolls go higher since they're single-use anyway.
there's an obvious solution and you were so close with the DM choosing which ability score check to use: when you try to use a scroll you make an ability check for the spellcasting ability of the class list(s) that spell is on. so INT for wizard and artificer only spells like find familiar, WIS for a spell only on cleric, druid, or ranger lists like hunters mark, or spiritual weapon, CHA for spells only on warlock, sorcerer, and paladin lists like hex and find steed. now if a spell is on multiple lists like magic missile (wizard and sorcerer) the player could choose which ability check they'd liek to do, but of course limited to the options that spell has so in the case of magic missile INT or CHA
I makes sense to add your "primary spellcasting ability" which is just the highest of Int, Wis, or Cha. How the spell is cast using either of those abilities can allow for some fun RP.
The Arcana skill is already used for making scrolls, so just use it as a stand-in for Use Magic Device and keep the class restrictions. Then add a feat that allows you to ignore the class restrictions and gives you proficiency in Arcana or expertise if you already have proficiency. The only major problem I would see with this is that Arcana is also used for other kinds of skill checks, so this might make that skill too valuable. Also it still makes the scroll reading partially dependent on your intelligence score but honestly I don't see that as a problem, the 8 INT Barbarian should have a harder time casting from a scroll than the 18 INT Wizard.
I don't make a whole separate feat but I make it so when you take ritual. Caster, whichever caster class you choose when you choose that point, you can also use spell scrolls from that class
One idea I've yet to try but will be in my next campaign are Spell Shards/Mana Shards (not to be confused with Spellshards from Ebberon).
The general idea is that these are items that contain a fixed number of charges of a single spell, usable once attuned. They do not regen charges. They can be used by anyone (although swapping to other people means reattunement). The big kicker is that once they are picked up, after a certain number of Long Rests, they will cease to exist.
So basically they are wands that are not permanent. This means you can ramp up their power-level and how often they can be found without worrying you're giving your party infinite number of resources.
They're not meant to be a replacement for wands. Wands still exist but are rarer and will generally be accessible much later or must be pursued.
My in universe reason is that these are very powerful, yet very fragile remnants of a great device/construct/crystalline formation. They are kept preserved in stasis in their resting places. However, once disturbed, they can be attuned to and used by anyone to instantly be able to access their great power. Once they are "activated", that stasis effect is gone and they only have a limited amount of time before they turn to dust and dissolve back into the aether.
The way I run it in my games is anyone can cast any spell through a scroll, but if you're not a spellcasting class your spell save DC or spell attack bonus doesn't get any additional modifier from your spellcasting ability, because you don't have a spellcasting ability. The scroll is then consumed, and it doesn't cost any additional spell slots, the scroll being consumed itself is the spell slot being consumed.
A wizard can also tear out a spell from his spellbook and use it as a scroll in this way but the page is consumed just the same. So in a desperate time when you're out of slots you can sacrifice a spell from your spellbook
I like the idea of attunement to the scroll or wand. This would allow the character to use the scroll / device without a roll unless it is a spell higher than they could cast by level. Once the item / scroll is spent when used / lost, the attunement slot is re-opened. Possible even grants all players one 'temporary attunement slot;, so they don't need to give up an item to attune to a scroll or temporary device.
I came up with the similar idea. I use Arcana skill as Use Magic Device. If this skill is chosen a hero can use scrolls with spells of the same level as Arcana skill points halved down. It means that a character studied how to use scrolls.
For my sci-fi setting, scroll and wands are basically magic guns, weapons, etc. Depending on the physical structure of the item the ability needed changes. Guns behave like ranges weapons, swords use strength, and so on. Scrolls and wands are somewhat combined, as each weapon could have multiple charges, but they don't regenerate on their own, you have to refill it with fuel cells.
What i'm thinking of doing is opening scroll casting up to everyone but if you're not proficient in that class of spells it's just a straight mental stat. So a wizard would use their proficiency bonus plus int to cast fireball, but to cast spirit guardians would be a straight wisdom check. For spells that appear on multiple lists like Bane or Burning Hands then you get to choose which modifier to use. So a bard would naturally choose Cha since they get their proficiency bonus, while a wizard would choose Int, and the Barbarian would just choose whichever mod was highest.
The other alternative would be to add "Magic Device" as a tool proficiency that any class could spec into which would allow anyone to cast scrolls from a predetermined mental stat. A little more prep work when determining treasure on the DM's part but not much IMO.
I think another possible idea would be to create items that are "scrolls" in practice but flavored differently with different class requirements. Clerics/Paladins could have "Liturgies" (small contained lines of holy text) that require a Wisdom DC instead of an Int DC. Martial classes could get special potions that are limited in what they can do but MUST be consumed by a martial class to take effect (self-haste would be a solid one) and you could allow full casters to maybe "try to use it" with a Con save.
I love "You can do anything...at a cost" as opposed to "you can't do that". I'd open it up, and maybe open the INT restriction as well.
1) For your feet, you could add +1 Con so it has some utility even when you aren't using a spell scroll.
2) You could maybe add a restriction to scroll usage: If you are trying to cast a spell that is not on your spell list OR you have already used scrolls to cast spells a number of spell levels that exceeded your character level since your last long rest, you must expend a hit die or level of exhaustion to use another scroll. Something similar for wands.
I really like the idea of opening it all up, my only concern is that it weakens a thief's ability to use any magic item regardless of restrictions (I include scrolls in how I currently read that) so maybe add a bonus to rogues doing the scroll stuff since there aren't restrictions anymore and thief is already a "weaker" subclass
Then, don't house rule it if you have a player who wants to play a thief?
If no one does, it's not treading on toes. It's a higher level ability, too, rather than an early level toe treading such as subtle spell equivalence
I like the idea of use arcana as the use magic device. Make sure the NPCs can do it to. Force the mishaps table or use wild magic table to ensure that there is a risk vs rewards thing. Maybe a feat or a flat bonus in some way if you can already cast spells. Like for every spell level you know you get a +1 to the roll so it doesn't feel like fighters are suddenly epic casters compared to wizards.
A thought came to mind. Maybe you have to use an action or bonus action to read the spell. So you can cast it that turn but you have a deficit to being able to do another thing if you do that.
This raises an good point. For me I've always viewed spell scrolls as ways for non-casters to cast spells. They know magic is useful but aren't capable of doing things themselves, so they ask a wizard to make them some haste, web, and invisibility spell scrolls for their next adventure. I think it's weird is became a caster only thing, as it kinda waters them down. Casters care about them less cause "I can already do that", and martials stopped caring.
I think an Intelligence skill check (Use Magic Device) is the perfect solution. It's obtainable in a number of ways. At creation, via background, via a feat (with other skills). Definitely going to add it to my game I think. Also a fan of handing out half proficiency on things like this through in game RP.
What i currently am doing in my games regarding scrolls is opening everything to everyone, using the same DCs for spellscrolls, but allowing the spellcasting ability of the roll to be of a class that would have acces to that spell:
For example, for a Healing Word scroll, the spell is in the Bard, Cleric and Druid spell list, so the check for the scroll could use either Charisma (Since it's the bard spellcasting ability) or Wisdom (since it's the cleric and druid spellcasting ability)
Now for a Fireball, it would be either Charisma or Intelligence (Since it is in the Sorcerer and Wizard spell list)
I like the idea of a Constitution Caster. If you're not trained in the art of weaving the magical energy that surrounds us, you can make up for it by pouring your own will power into the spell to make it happen. You take some damage (d6 per spell level and half on a con save?) and to make the spell work. Concentration spells slowly drain you and you have disadvantage on concentration checks. Something like that.
I think "Use Magic Device" would fit more like a tool proficience in 5e... Wich is great! you can pick up in an background like "arcanist" or something like this, and Wizards and Arcane Tricksters may gain this tool proficience automatically.
Edit: Also, being a tool dont tie it to int, and can be used with wis for a healing word like you said.
UMD is a Thief rogue feature
I would allow what a consider the "skill monkey classes" (Rogue/Bard/Artificer/Monk) to have the ability to cast a spell of their proficiency bonus or lower with scrolls or wands.
- The rogue of 5th level could cast a 3th level spell with a wand/scroll.
- The young monk of 2dn level could cast heal/web.
- etc.
The way I run it in my groups is basically anyone can use any scroll as long as it's not above the highest level spell slot of a full caster (level 5 ranger could use a fireball scroll, for example). To cast something of a higher level, it must be on your spell list, and is an arcana check instead of straight int, giving players a chance to have proficiency/expertise.
So far having it that open hasn't caused any harm, but I also haven't overloaded them with scrolls of fireball... Yet.
I have used Arcana to subsume the old Use Magic Device for many years and it works great. I have also toyed with allowing Wisdom (Arcana) checks or even Charisma (Arcana) checks for certain scrolls and other items based on which stat is creator used for spellcasting. I might even allow a Dexterity (Arcana) check for an item that requires you to twiddle your fingers just right, or other creative way to use Arcana.
I would say there does need to be some sort of restriction on casting scrolls to avoid certain abuses, like infinite find familiars for instance. I like keeping the current rule, just making it so if you don’t have levels in a class that can cast the spell and it requires an action or bonus action, you can use an action to make the arcana check. It does limit fighters with low int, but I think that’s fine, make them invest a proficiency if they want scrolls. Also makes a rogue with arcana expertise quite interesting
Hey there. Been DMin since 1993. My favorite thing in the world to do. So, for 5e... I actually allow all players, all races, all classes to use scrolls and magic items (as long as the item isn't limited to their class /race. (Keeping the maximum atunement to 3. I mitigate the chances of the party finding scrolls and wands that are far too powerful (that would normally require INT checks etc) by simply not giving them to them. If the scroll HAS to be introduced via gameplay, then I only offer the one, and use the storyline to emphasis how important it is that they save it until there is 'no other hope'. It keeps the excitement and anticipation through the roof!
One way to open scrolls up to all PCs might be to rule that any PC is able to use a scroll to cast a spell of a level less than their profiency bonus, with no chance for failure. (And allow intelligence checks to try for higher level spell scrolls.) So, anyone could cast a 1st level spell from a scroll straightaway, they could cast level 2 spell scrolls once they're character level 5, and so on. This feels appealing to me because it actually lines up with the levels when half casters get to cast spells of those levels normally.
I think considering magic scrolls as objects of Glyph of warding: Spell Glyph.
Then give a DC for casters to "open it" without triggering it if they want to learn it.
all spell scrolls then depend on the dude you got it from (or who created it, if a different person)
Meaning that you wouldnt even know the power of the effect before using it.
This is a system i have been speculating on for a while as i want to give the party access to scrolls and let them have to "identify it" and Arcana check the result to know what school, spell, level, DC it is depending on their arcana roll.
I really miss Use Magic Device, and think it is the best way to encourage more scroll, wand, and magical consumable usage.
The PF1 version had rules baked in for intentionally causing mishaps and sabotaging magical devices, for using items blindly without knowing what they were and how it impacted the DC, and I think it would be a good way to spread out some of those skill proficiencies.
I'd say the only classes that should get the skill proficiency at level 1 should be Artificers and Wizards (the learned classes), and if should be an option other classes can take either with their free choices, or their race/background/feats.
I have a slightly different way for allowing the use of scrolls by a PC in 5e. Whenever I give out a scroll, I indicate that it is written in a particular language. If the PC knows the language, they can automatically cast the spell if they meet any additional requirements such as verbal components, in which case they must be able to speak the language the scroll is written in. It isn’t a perfect system, but I have found that it opens up more possibilities for creative scroll use.
Back in adnd 2e. I created an HB class that was sorta a hybrid of a Mage/Fighter or Monk/spell caster in 5e. Instead of a traditional spell caster. The class uses small embued paper scrolls to cast base spells as their bonus action as sorta final haymaker hit after for hit attack combo. Their limited number of paper scrolls maybe limit the base spell being cast, but the class can use multiple scrolls to perform ritual casting of a spell to a higher spellcasting level with a constitution check. The best part about the class is you can play it in 3 different ways. Play as an MMA fighter type that has a special surprise hit. Play it as a pure sorcerer-type ritual caster. Or play it as a balance of the two. Another cool thing is that players of the same class link and share their scroll between them to help cast bigger spells quicker like the Help action for casting a higher-level spell. This bypass the spells per day and actually gave more risk verse reward when casting. Depending on their modifier they can recover and conjure scrolls during a short rest. Any complex spells that require a higher than modifier require a long rest to refill. So with a +5 modifier, the class can conjure up 5th level spells for a total of their Proficiency Bonus times their Casting Modifier scrolls. But they can not cast higher levels if their level doesn't meet the right spell level requirements for casting. So no Casting fireball at level 1 lol
These are all good ideas. It always sucks when you get magic treasure and it ends up being several scrolls that only one character, or even worse, no character in the group can use. Letting everyone, or at least those with the correct perk, use the scrolls fixes that problem. Two thumbs up! 👍👍
I allow everyone access to scrolls, but they must first translate the scroll from pure arcane script using either arcana, history, religion, (or whatever roll would make sense) succeeding on the roll slows for the scroll to be used by anyone with full effect, failure to translate might only give you a school of magic or a vague idea of effect, but the scroll can still be used just with the chance of backfiring by reversing the affect, dealing damage, or just failing out right. As for using spells at a higher level than normal it has higher dc check to translate, and can still deal some damage as backlash or even levels of exhaustion with a successful transition. As for wands I allow anyone to use them (tho I don’t give many wands) but I just make it so they either lose out on secondary effects or regain less charges on a rest if the class utilizing the wand can’t normally use it. (Please let me know what you think about this system)
I have in some of my campaigns "divine scrolls" made by patrons or deities, they are either rewards or payment and are made to be able to be cast by anyone. Usually utility spells like Plane Shift, Plant Growth, etc. I don't often have many scrolls floating about in the world.
If I did have players try to cast a spell scroll that was not normally available to them, Arcana check with a decent DC, and if it were 1st-3rd level they'd get one point of exhaustion, 4th&5th level 2 points exhaustion, 6th level 2 points exhaustion and a d4 damage, 7th level 3 points exhaustion and a d4 damage, 8th level 3 points exhaustion and 2d4 damage, 9th level 2 points exhaustion and roll percentile die to see what percent of their HP they have left.
Wands I would allow a PC to make an arcana check once a day to see if they can figure out how to use it, then if it is an attack wand base it off dexterity like most other ranged attacks.
These are my current homebrew rules for casting from scrolls:
Spell Scrolls will have alternate rules. They will have the Save DC and Attack Bonus of the Spellcaster who cast it originally. Additionally, non-Spellcasters/Spellcasters of different classes may cast from Spell Scrolls of other Spellcaster Classes if they have an Ability Score Modifier of that Spellcaster's Casting Ability equal to or greater than the spell level of the Spell Scroll's Level. (A Fighter or Paladin with +1 Intelligence can cast a "Shield" spell from a wizard's Spell Scroll. A Wizard with +3 Wisdom can cast a "Spirit Guardians" from a Cleric's Spell Scroll, but not a Paladin's "Spirit Guardians" without a +3 Charisma
Hi there! Long time suscriver but very seldom commenter here.
One group I play with came across this issue recently un our Saturday's Spelljammer game.
Our DM ruled it simply: the activation of a wand depends on the description of how that particular item opperates. Is it just a gnarled brach that shoots lightning for you when you cast that spell, only that you don't need to spent a spell slot? Then you better know that spell. No matter if you are a wizard.
Does the wand activates by presing a carving or turning a dial? Then anyone and most monkeys can do it.
And that is that for wands.
As for scrolls, everybody could use them... They only need to be able to understand them and consecuently read them correctly. So make an Arcana check (for wizardy stuff) or Religion check (for "mystic liturgy") to see if you can get it right, and done.
To me this makes perfect sense, since it keeps the DMs options open and makes character concept relevant. Anyone can be educated as part of their background, and even have that represented by an Arcana proficiency, so it's easily accesible and they'd still have a decent chance to get it right... Just not as bad as the barely literate Lizardfolk Ranger might have. Then again our scaly friend does remember the rites of his tribe's old shaman, or the tools brandished by the invaders' evangelizing clerics, so maybe that rolled up string of runes is kinda familiar...
You get the idea.
Great content as always!
Use the Arcana, Religion, and Nature skills depending on what lists the spell appears on - Religion for Clerics and Paladins, Nature for Druids and Rangers, and Arcana for everyone else. If the spell falls under multiple skills, the DM decides - who made the scroll for whom?
You could include a fear - Scroll Literacy. Add +1 to INT or WIS (maximum 20) and gain one of the above skills. When you use this skill to cast from a scroll, you gain +2 on the check (or advantage? - either could work).
The way I always look at it is, if it's just giving my players something to spend their action on that another character could do its not really breaking them game. Example a Fireball already exists so allowing my fighter to cast fireball doesn't bother me so much since I'd be no different than having 2 wizards in the party with the exception is its a one off.
I added Leyman's Scrolls as a mechanic in my campaign. Leyman's secrets of course are lost and no more can be created. Anyone can use them with an arcana check (DC 10+spell level), but they are one time use. It has allowed me to give my players more useful lewt that gives them access to utility spells (that I curate for balance and/or fun factor) without giving them more magic items. But yeah, spell scrolls need to be opened up for other classes because they can add a lot of fun to a campaign.
I've done all of these in some degree, ultimately what I decided on in conclusion was make arcana/religion capable of doing what use magic device did, depending on the magic item. holy items like the holy avenger and divine spell scrolls are religion, things like the robe of stars and arcane spells are arcana. some can be used with either, because they are items inspired by myths and the seperation between the divine and the arcane isn't as clear cut as D&D makes it out to be sometimes. Keep in mind I also allow every character to swap out one skill in my games for any proficiency (a wizard could give up a skill to be proficient in rapier or perhaps know another language), so this does impact how the rule comes into play.
There is precedent for 2 types of scrolls in 5e "Spell scrolls" and "Scrolls of". specifically the only "scroll of" is scroll of protection. So I would consider allowing any touch spell to be saved in scroll format Under the crafting rules.(possibly with an extra cost.) Its not game changing or radically different than some potions that can be crafted but it increases the fun while maintaining decent gameplay scope.
A feat that would allow you to cast any spell scroll is very powerful. Especially if you use spell scroll crafting. You can have your cleric create a spell scroll of revivify and then give it to the party Ranger or Monk
I really like that UMD idea, but I also think adding a feat is still a good idea too. You can do both, make UMD your main casting skill. Than give the players an optional feat to add to UMD, like that +3 you talked about. It would be fun build crafting. How would UMD work though with the scrolls/wands? Only activates on a total roll of 20 or betting the 10+spell lvl.
For the most part, I think this is great (especially using existing Int skills for the different spell types). I think you'll want to add some restrictions for the spells that really should be class features, like Find Familiar and Find Steed. Otherwise, your wizard/pact warlock and paladin are going to loose some niche when everyone is going around on their magical steed, talking to their magical familiar.
There's another fairly simple/elegant solution as well. Roll use magic device into arcana. Gotta have arcana to use the wands, scrolls can be attempted by anyone. You roll arcana to cast the scrolls. Spell casters can roll casting stat+arcana proficiency to meet the DC for scrolls, and full casters are considered proficient in arcana when casting scrolls/using wands. You'll have to bump the scroll DC slightly, not sure where would sit best, but it puts casters at an advantage, and lets anyone who wants to build for using magic scrolls/wands relatively easily (and will usually be worse off than the casters).
Warlocks were the kings of Use Magic Device in 3.5, because they had class features that specifically boosted it.
Second edition however, it was rogues, with the ultimately broken ability "Use Any Item".
Want your evil rogue to pick up that holy aveneger and use it's full capabilities?
Well... they could...