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In my head living in the NCR frontier is like the first Mad Max movie, there is a semblance of civilization in the Wasteland but sometimes a gang shows up and causes trouble
I've always found it interesting that when you talk to Hanlon, he mentions that the NCR had also run itself into the ground economically, where they screwed over their own water aquifers and have to expand economically, or else face disaster. Meanwhile when you barter with Legate Lanius, he's basically stripped apart the East to support this military campaign. Both sides are quite screwed short term, unless they win the Mojave.
That's why I screw both Factions over and take over The Mojave for myself, eventually both Factions will collapse and my Empire will annex both their territories
@@AlphaAuroraNext Fallout protagonist called the Fixer comes in and destrys Vegas so the NCR wich is back to Fallout 2 levels of stability and rebuild it without the strippers.
I'm curious to what extent the slave / citizen split is in the Legion. In Rome it was around 20% but in Ancient Athens it was much higher, with the average citizen having three or four slaves. If the Legion doesn't charge taxes that does seem to indicate a large slave population, as the slaves would take care of agricultural and other resources rather than needing the civilian population to do it. Roman plebs had riots over slave holding estates taking over all the work while they has nothing, I wonder if similar tensions exist in the Legion?
Im curious about this too. On one hand, I feel as if Caesar would only allow for trading of slaves within the Legion proper, as slaves being sold to subjects in a civilized land would be seen as a waste of resources. On the other hand, the courier is able to buy captures that didn’t meet criteria for serving the Legion. This evidence, in combination with the existence of the Offices of Slavery implies that the acquisition and selling of slaves is commonplace in Legion territories.
My main theory is that it is similarly low because they have them wherever their armies are to haul supplies and do menial tasks then whoever is unneeded is either killed or sent back into the legion for possible use in farms or whatnot.Also when a slave has children boys are often integrated into the army to become a legionary and the girls either remain a slave or find a place in the cult.
The Legion is not state nor government - this is huge nomad tribe, the army without taxes or standing economy, solution or patch for NCR, that means that towns over /Legion control/ is not /ruled by them/, so they are free. Slaves are only inside Legion and used like workhorse.
I always imagined that the people of NCR lived in what the United States was during the wild west period. That is, the closer you were to the heartland- Shady Sands, The Hub, L.A or Dayglow- the more civilized and protected your life would be. But the further out you went from the center of government and industry and civility, the more wild the world around you became. You'd go from the rebuilt urban centers with a lifestyle almost comparable to out own (obviously not as advanced or secure but you get the idea) to living in a situation like what we see in New Vegas.
I think it makes sense for the NCR to have a considerably larger population than the Legion. California is after all the most populous state in America by a wide margin while the Legion states of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado is only half that of California combined. But this is acceptable for Caesar as the Legion punches above its weight class because of its policy of mass tribal conscription, including child soldiers, and utilizing enslaved women as baby factories, so their military-to-civilian ratio is undoubtedly incredibly higher than the NCR's.
I think there just needs to be a retcon for the Legion to adopt technology on some levels. Like gun manufacturing plants. There's no way a pre-gunpowder group with less population is actually winning against a powder using military force.
@Generic Scout I always hear this maybe I’m playing on the wrong difficulty but I feel like every other legionnaires or every third legionnaires has a gun the confederates didn’t have much industry but still primarily used guns they just need to add gunsmiths and black powder founderies since most of their guns are like 1800s level anyway being lever action rifles or revolvers
@@josepigroyper370 The confederates did not have gatling guns, but the North could field them. Not having industry means just that. The Legion are shown in game making only machete's in their base. While the NCR goons are shown making modern M4a1's at their bases. In game the best the legion fields is basically on the level of the gun runners. They are shown to try to buy from the Van graffs. But it seems unlikely that the NCR groups on a large scale are selling weapons to the Legion. Pre war stockpiles I guess could be an answer like for the White legs. Although in a real war stockpiles don't actually last very long.
@@genericscout5408 both sides used gatling guns but don't think I don't understand your point I'm just saying there can be a huge industry gap and still be able to go toe to toe for a while example since I already use the civil war as an example for every rifle the south made the union made 9 despite this it wasn't until the south lost the veteran core of their fighting force in giant battles like Gettysburg that the union had a large advantage over the south aka years into the war in truth unless there is a massive tech gap the skill of the average solider and the capabilities of the officers matters more (of course unlike industry its often times easier to lose those officers and soldiers just in attrition)
they dont completely shun technology though. Caesar just stresses that they shouldnt be dependent on it. As soldiers move up in rank, they access more advanced weaponry since theyve proven theyre strong enough to succeed without it, and will only be more dangerous with it. Where does everyone get the idea that Legion = Ooga Booga
That's my Fic!! 😀😀 I'm Interfectorem the writer on that site! Because of your comment I'm gonna leave you a special shout-out on the next chapter of my current fic! I know it's super late to edit, but I want to say this comment and video inspired me to start uploading the story I wrote in audiobook form on RUclips on a channel named "FalloutFanfics" so thank you for that!
In reality, they can't be compared because the Legion wasn't fleshed out enough. But Caesar's whole plan is for the Legion to conquer the NCR, and then become more like the NCR. It's his whole thesis, antithesis, synthesis, mumbo jumbo. He knows the Legion is lacking, but also believes that the NCR is lacking. His goal is to bring both together, and utilize the strengths of each. So people who back the Legion don't even understand what Caesar was trying to do.
@ApolloBobTomthe legion has only conquered tribals in their land. None of the people it rules have a concept of a proper nation state in the fashion of the NCR. They only follow whoever is strongest. If caesar would content himself with his current lands the proper state he seeks to develop would never be built. He needs to conquer the NCR for it's citizens. Those citizens will want to reform the legion into an actual state which will give caesars ideals a chance when the legion civil war breaks out. This is also why legate lanius believes caesar withdrew too many men from the east to attack the west. Withdrawing those men from the east will result in the fall of the east. However for caesar this is a good thing, because if the east falls and most of the savages leave the legion, all that will be left is the civilised NCR citizens whom will then create a synthesis between the NCR and legion.
Problem with Caesar’s plan though is that regardless of what he has planned for the future, unless the courier directly interfere’s, he still has a deadly tumor in his head. If that's not safely removed his legion will pretty much die with him.
You should honestly think of a career as a politician, the way you pull a single sentence out of all he said and twist it in a way that its not technically wrong is honestly remarkable
Caesar wants to reform his tribal army into a more fleshed out state so yes on paper after the transformation it will be more like the NCR, but it would still very different thn NCR, it wouldnt be a "democracy", not even a constitutional monarchy, it wouldnt accept the influence of people like Brahmin Barons over the state and it wouldnt follow the stance NCR follows on technology. Would it be closer to NCR thn before? Yes but still miles away.
Now that you mention the economy i think it would’ve been funny if among all sorts of Legion quests involving terror tactics, infiltration and assassination, sabotage, total warfare and alliance building, one particularly harebrained Legion commander has the idea to make the already shitty NCR economy even worse somehow and the plan actually ends up working later into the game when NCR troops can’t even afford to buy a beer in downtime, let alone afford ammo Like he’s got the only paper printing press in New Vegas and needs the Courier to bring what he needs to make adjustments to continuously print thousands upon thousands of authentic dollars and just start handing them around the frontier to mess with the NCR or something, I dunno I’m far from an economy expert
The Legion seems to have enslaved tribals as they were more common in the east. But the ending slides of the game state that towns like Novac are killed or enslaved. Without new slaves their society crumbles
There's a mod for HOI4 that transforms the game to set it in the world of fallout. You can play a lot of faction, includind the NCR, the Legion, BOS...
And in it, the legion and ncr are both incredibly op because of sheer manpower, something strange though is how most of the time, without any intervention ncr even loses in California, getting pushed out of Nevada makes total sense, but them getting pushed into the heartland of California makes zero sense whatsoever
@@ultimatestuff7111 Balancing in that game needs a little polish now and again, especially for the likes of Kaga with his insanely OP riot control units.
Dont need much balancing. Its meant to be a single player exp. to give you the opportunity to conquer everything with every country that has a specific focus tree. You can win with the roach king ffs :D. its not balanced for MP and inheritley cant
@@ultimatestuff7111I think it makes sense, most scenarios in that game show the legion winning in Nevada pushing into California becoming more overextended and under supplied and being encircled and crushed by the A.I many times. Which is what the courier says to Lanius at the end of NV
There is also the issue of the Legion's recruitment pool. What happens if they run out of tribes to assimilate, either by absorption or tribes moving away? What if there's a major battle that greatly wears down their numbers? There's no way the Legion can replenish such severe numbers through reproducing amongst their ranks alone, and certainly not in a short enough time. Especially if they usually don't enslave or recruit their non tribal subjects that they conquer. If there's a sudden void of manpower and they're forced to pull from their non Legion subjects, no doubt that'll cause an uproar, definitely more than it does for the NCR and their conscription system. Not to mention diminishing any logistical support those territories were providing as tribute, whether money or food to supply the Legion forces. This problem also would be compounded if Caesar himself is killed, since it seems his immediate successors don't have the mind for logistics or governance like he does.
that's, kind of a problem with every military ever? running out of manpower is bad. that's not exactly an issue with any specific type of army. it's not a present issue with the legion, it's just a bad thing that can happen. that's like, say for example, you're holding a sandwich. and you think to yourself "what if i drop this sandwich?" and then you then think "okay, an issue with the sandwich is that i can drop it." doesn't make sense. "tribes" is a more vague statement than literally like, tribal societies like native american tribes, like what you see in honest hearts. it would include groups that you see in the game like the 3 families on the strip, those would be considered as "tribes" that the legion can assimilate. especially considering caesar directly offers an alliance to the white gloves society, who are clearly not "tribal" in any sense, but are a group or "tribe" of sorts. under certain conditions, you can also find that the fantastic dude at helios one literally joins the legion all of a sudden, in the outfit and everything. none of caesar's successors are any good though, with lanius being the worst. at least vulpes does actually care for the legion itself, lanius only wants bloodshed. in the event that the courier sides with the legion, they'd be the perfect successor (if they have good intelligence at least). caesar does seem to give the courier better treatment than lanius, even minting their likeness on coins.
@@cr1tikal_arc not exactly. From the way the Legion behaves it seems like a nomadic warrior society that lives and breathes war - much like the Huns, Pechenegs, etc
@@LucasDimoveo except that's not how they work at all. they work with any tribe that is willing to accept their influence and aren't straight up degenerates. caesar even says himself that he wants to combine the strengths of the ncr and legion to create a perfect society. despite what reddit ncr chuds will try to tell you, the legion are not bloodthirsty savages. that problem can only be found within lanius, who's the legion's greatest field commander but only lives for war. and that's an issue that lies within lanius himself, not the legion.
@@dathunderman4 i mean not really, but this dude tried saying it was a specific issue with the legion, when.. it's not. there's nothing to indicate that it is an issue, if anything they have more manpower compared to population than the NCR. manpower is not an issue for them at all. "what if they run out of tribes to assimilate" then by that point they have already conquered the entire US. and even then, there'd still be canada and mexico if they wanted that too
I dont think the population section takes into account the areas both nations control California is one of the mostly climate wise pleasant places in the US it is almost perfect to build a nation out of while the Legions entire country is mostly centered around the most arid hottest place in America a literal desert I think this rather important to bring up.
It would also be the most devastated though. California has Military Bases all over it. Every Major City has one. We'd be hit with the most nukes and likely entirely glassed. The Bay Area has multiple Air Stations. LA has a full Air Force Base, San Diego has Camp Pendleton, Naval Bases, SEAL Training, Miramar, ect. We'd be completely wiped off the face of the planet.
As we've only seen mostly the military might of the Legion, I like the idea that things aren't all bad in legion territories. They might have more free will to individuals than it looks as the traders from the east make it out to be. They are strict on drugs, alcohol, and crime but maybe provide great prosperity within conquered cities that may be attempting to replicate Rome with colosseums, new post-war structures being constructed, and an upper public class that enjoys more luxurious things and upholds cultural standards that Caesar likes.
I wish someone made an ambitious mod to bring Flagstaff to life. I’d imagine it as a New Rome, a mix of old buildings, makeshift material and stonework
Somewhat late response but: In universe Raul will tell you that he has been to Arizona before and after the Legion took control and he says that life is obviously better. True he focuses on safety but taking into account his past that's not very surprising. Cassidy will also begrudgingly admit things would probably be better under Legion rule. This would imply that in universe the standard of living in Legion territory is high enough that people outside its control have at least heard of it. out of universe Sawyer has said that life in legionland is okay, no problems with access to food, water, electricity with the biggest selling point being the safety.
@@LitDCass only says that she feels her caravan would've been safe, not that life was better. She does say that all caravans under the Legion protection are unharmed. I don't recall any evidence in game for the claim that the Legion only enslaves tribals and that food, water, etc are plentiful in Legion lands. The only positive I hear of is security (as per Cass, Raul, and the one merchant at the front of the Fort), never actual prosperity. Which makes sense. They don't really seem to promote an advanced economy whatsoever, at most tenant farming... which in large swathes of Arizona, New Mexico, and part of Colorado... well, it's like trying to squeeze water out of stone. Without the water pumped from the Colorado River in real life, big chunks of that would be completely unlivable (though to be far, the same is also true for the far southern reaches of California). As to the claim that they never enslave non-tribals, the games endings actually have them enslaving and/or killing the majority of the people in Vegas and the Mojave, and only THEN "peacefully lording" over the rest, which seems to suggest that the whole "no enslavement unless you're in a tribe" deal isn't very true.
@@JB-xl2jcthey do say the Mojave isn’t how they normally do things but vegas is literally the antithesis to the legion I mean it’s entirely filled with drug and alcohol addicts, most of which are ncr troops or citizens
Oh hey, I caught a fresh episode! Each one's gotten better as you refine your skills, and I figure I ought to subscribe! I've been browsing through the fallout lore and each video looks slicker than the last! The Tragedy of Raul Tejada was very well done. This was a great breakdown of the strengths of the Legion and the NCR, along with their weaknesses. Neither seemed a great option at the time of the game, and House was perfectly positioned between these two powers. I hope one day Fallout will visit the region again with a well made, and well written game.
The legion's pronunciation of Caesar is how they said it in the days of Gaius Julius Caesar. The See-zer pronunciation of today is a later version of Latin.
A big thing I'm noticing with the major powers of the apocalypse is they all have approximately 4 states worth of size, from fallout 4 with the BOS I'd be willing to be the canon ending will either be them or minutemen but no matter what that would bringthem up to 4 states as they definitely have Maryland, Pennsylvania from logs and likely also NY/NJ leading to massachussets. Wonder if Bethesda will have them get in big fights or grow more major powers of roughly the same size.
This video is so well done that it makes me appreciate what lore Obsidian was able to establish, while also wishing they had more time to really expand upon it further than the short deadline Bethesda allowed them.
We won’t get an FNV 2, but if we ever do. I hope they keep the exact same game and expand upon it and implement all their ideas that they couldn’t implement because of the time restraints and old gen console restrictions. Would love to see more Legion locations to the east and a true Las Vegas strip.
This is something that has been playing on my mind ALOT. Caesar is 55 how the hell did he take over so much of land in such short time, we really need to see inside the NCR in one of these games , the whole world being still this broken after 200 years makes no sense
Considering from context it seems that Caesar has been a war lord for 2-3 decades by the time of NV it's not really that unbelievable. He's been using more advanced tactics and training against unorganized tribes with little to no training beyond skirmishes with equally unorganized bands.
The world is still broken because the newer games focus to much on the ashes rather than what rises from them. It makes the world more broken than it should be, an issue which is fixable by setting fallout 3 and 4 back by say 160 years
I won't forget that one trader you meet at Caesars camp that talked about the Legion's territory. How there were no raiders, constant security for caravans, and no toll taxs for the trade caravans
yeah, doesen't matter if its efficient if living there is worse than taking your chances in the wastes, atleast you wont get crucified by the NCR's lame taxes, also taxes are for infrastructure and thats desperately needed in the apocalypse
@@circleinforthecube5170 The entire point is that it's not worse. Being crucified for fucking with the Legion is one thing, being under constant threat of mutant creatures, ghouls, fiends and raiders is very obviously much worse
For the legion I don't think there is any "civilian" aspects. I think it's purely military and trade. You're either in the military or you're not, it's just whether or not you're on the frontlines.
I’ve read there was originally suppose to be a lot more legion content in New Vegas with more settlements in Arizona. But the developers didn't have the time and budget to make them and had to make do with what they had.
An important point you did NOT bring up, sir, is the status of women; in the NCR there is gender equality, whereas in the Legion territories, women are (explicitly and canonically) viewed as subhuman property. This is a rather glaring oversight when comparing the two.
May I suggest an analysis of a legion/BoS alliance? The brotherhood doesn't seek to rule as a nation, simply enclaves of an insular society. Caesar could tolerate their existence since they would have no interest in being rivals. The legion restricts advanced technology and the brotherhood hordes it so there's not much overlap plus on the occasion the legion needs heavy firepower, they could call on the brotherhood as allies yet remaining separate from their society. Similar to the imperium and mechanicus in 40k
@@smokeyplane3285 I believe recruiting the brotherhood to the legions side was cut content. You had to do a persuade check on caesar to convince him to spare the brotherhood, then do the existing brotherhood missions to join them. Once you're accepted, you had to secure helieos one for them to get them to ally with caesar. They didn't plan on what form brotherhood aid would take for the hoover dam battle.
@Mister Majestic they certainly aren't as ruthless as the legion but they won't have much love for the ncr after having just lost a war against them. The prydwin crew in Boston for instance wouldn't have an issue with legion control so long as advanced technology is handed to them which caesar is happy to do. Also keep in mind technology isn't outright banned in the legion, high ranking troops that have demonstrated their strength are permitted not only guns but even stealth boys and medicine. The legion is sure to have a few dozen shoulder fired SAM lying around when needed. That's why the ncr couldn't just bomb caesar.
I don't think Caesar is a good faith actor. He uses groups in the Mojave to weaken the NCR, but he doesn't respect them. I don't think he would respect any alliance with the BoS either, once he got what he wanted out of it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't NCR soldiers complain about how the rangers and heavy infantry seem to spend most of their time chasing brahmin rustlers and bandits within the NCR's corelands? I admit it has been a while since I played but I seem to remember hearing that a fair bit from various characters. As for religion I always understood (from the first two games as well as some characters in NV) that various brands of christianity are the primary religion, without any single brand dominating and often being relegated to "local cults" wiht only the mormons (or rather new caananites) being a larger single faith.
@@johnnyhuynh9016 The Heavy Troopers were Oliver's pet project and so are more focused at the Dam, while the vast majority of the Black Rangers are still in the Baja, only the vanguard units at at Hoover by the start of the battle, mainly because Oliver despises them.
@@rbfilms4752 Not in absolute monarchies. You think there were any political parties in Darius's Persia or Alexander's Macedonia, or Caesar's Legion for that matter? Hell neezy. That shit was for the birds. You either were either down with the emperor or you get thrown off a mountain and then he gets turned into a llama or something. I for one am down with dictatorship for the sole reason of putting an end to all of the retarded political arguments I've had to listen to and all of the garbage political memes mucking up the internet.
Not necessarily. As a military superpower fiat currency has a bit more weight to it, and it gives the state a bit more influence on the economy, bailouts etc. We basically went from the gold standard to the nuke standard.
@@cpob2013 docent work anymore countries around the globe world loosing respect for the USA more & more because of our constantly weakening leadership & are forming new alliances with out the USA. Plus the nuke answer disappeared once more than 1 country developed them. You can't bully someone with nukes if they also have nukes.
@@theneocypherIn our timeline America is still a world superpower and is more powerful than ever (and also the Legion is a backwards slave state that doesn't understand what made Rome work)
The problem with a fiat currency in the NCR is that people who aren't NCR don't believe in it. The USA, on the other hand, is a dominant superpower. With California alone being one of the largest economys in the entire world. People believe in the US dollar, though of course, it's still susceptible to inflation. But people all over the world still believe in it. The NCR 's mistake is puffing themselves up as the inheritors of the USA far too early.
People say that the Legion's territory is safer than NCR's, and they're right. You know, unless you're a mutant, or a woman, or gay, or a doctor, or sell alcohol, or sell weapons they consider "too advanced"
@@joshuagonzalez5959 Yeah, that always confused me. Caesar's whole "weapons of blood and bone" thing implies that he prefers his soldiers use melee weapons or simple gunpowder rifles. That's the only point in the game I can remember where they try to buy energy weapons.
The Legion's territory is primarily in the least hospitable and nearly the least population, precisely because they are the least hospitable. California's population, even prior to the mass migration to the west coast around the time of WW2, and even without modern technology, eclipsed that of the Legion's current territory by a huge margin. Taking into consideration California's modern state as the most populous state in the country, I would say this bumps up their numbers even more. Simply having cities doesn't mean much when those cities have without a doubt become desolate as a result of being located in a desert with little to no trade or infrastructure for centuries, meanwhile California rebuilt those things long before any of the states that now constitute the Legion. Similarly, simple geographical size is not a deciding factor either, as again, these areas are among the least densely populated in the country, and there examples of other countries, such as Russia, possessing massive territory but with a relatively small population compared to other major powers.
the reason the legion is "safer" is probably because that's what they want you to think. You have barely any interactions with legion citizens and you don't really see anywhere that's actually under their control and the ending for them is mass slavery to fund their next war. By contrast you have way more interactions with the NCR and since their society is much more open you get a more honest view of what people think and how life actually is there.
I really hope they eventually make a fallout game in Legion territory, they could talk about the collapse of the legion, or some sort of fighting there. (I think the legion would at the very least see some big infighting once Caeser would die with many high-ranking legionnaires in my opinion vying for power, I could be wrong, but it would be really cool seeing the breakup of the legion and a game based in such a large area.) They could also talk about a slave revolt due to the heavy reliance on slaves to power the nation if someone like Caeser died, I think a slave revolt would be inevitable.
Well done on your analysis with NCR and Legion territories. While there's no evidence to back this, I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware, the creators of Star Wars The Old Republic took some notes on the major factions between these two for their aforementioned game. Because their Galactic Republic vs. Sith Empire faction war reminds me of NCR vs. Legion. A democratic-elected government body against a totalitarian dictatorship. I honestly wish the Legion was a little bit more fleshed out in lore kinda like how Elder Scrolls: Skyrim made their opposing factions of Imperial Legion vs. Stormcloaks somewhat difficult to pick who to side with. Even though I know the flaws of both factions, I find myself siding with NCR on almost every playthrough. Probably because I tend to be a bit of a do-gooder in open world roleplaying games. I actually have to put a bit of effort in going the evil route.
I love the look of the NPC mod(s) you are using. Especially when it comes to the NCR and Legion NPCs. Is it all in one mod, and if so, which mod? Great video. 👍
02:09 im curious where on earth you get this info from when in-game there are no mention of this statement. If you ask siri (the enslaved would-be doctor) she's definitely not a tribal as she implied that she had some degree of doctor education before legion took over her town and enslaved her. Having a place of learning doesnt sem tribal-like.
I mean I am not defending that statement but I think he was talking generally, she was most likely enslaved in a raid before Legion officially occupied their territory.
I wonder just how much casualties or damage that you did to the legion after ruining many things that the legion has stood for like killing vulpes, bust the spy at mcarran, destroy Cottonwood cove and the fort and not to mention in the lonesome road dlc you nuke part of the legions territory and also killing ceaser and lanius Must've been a crippling blow to the legion. Plans destroyed, boss and second in command destroyed and one of their states got the nagasaki and hiroshima treatment.
Cottonwood cove ingame only has a couple dozen legionaries in it but its possibly just an engine issue whereas in the lore it probably had at least 80 men stationed in or around the place (since its led by a centurion) But I don’t think it’ll be crippling in term of casualties (for armies that number in upwards of tens thousands), but mostly a setback in term of controling territory past the river
@@theneocypher Are there any other ways of getting the mod because I have found the mod but It is annoying to get so are there any other mods that basically do the dame as the "We are Legion" Mod?
Following the death of Caesar and large percentage of his army in the region Known as New Vegas, the lands of the Legion fall into civil strife as the Legion no longer had the strength to prevent the tension that existed before their arrival and had built over their short reign. Which 5 years following the second Battle of hoover Dam, Flagpole had long forgotten it former protectors being replaced by raiders and warlords. The City did however remain an important settle and became the centre of one of the region's powers, after it was traded by the sons of Caesar and Wolf Legion between the so called shattering, a 16 year long conflict between Legion rememants and new/Old Tribal alliances.
Interesting video. I wonder how an Independent Vegas would do in the future. I know people like to point to the whole anarchy stuff, but you know, it is expected for a while considering an entire new government is coming into play. Specially into a post-apocalyptic world.
I don’t necessarily believe it is taxation as a whole but rather who it’s directed at. The NCR’s corruption likely meant Brahmin Barons and the wealthy elites of the NCR don’t have to pay as much tax as they should, and as a result average citizens have to step up to pay the costs. The NCR’s expansionist and imperialist policies also meant its own territories are neglected and parts underdeveloped, and again the average citizen pays the price. NCR’s problem isn’t necessarily democracy but rather greed or more specifically its economic system.
I disagree that the Legion is as populated as the NCR. The Legion conquests involved more tribal areas, which tend to have a lower population than the developed urban centers the NCR captured. And while the NCR eradicated tribes, they don’t rely on them for population growth and often do so to make room for Californian settlers (who most likely have high growth rates like most settler populations). Additionally, the Legion’s distrust of technology means the infant mortality rate is much higher, and thus population growth is probably lower. Estimate wise I’d guess the Legion has around 1 million people and the NCR around 2-3 times that.
I see, I thought since the ncr for the most part is a system that carries the ideals of religious pluralism and democracy, the ideals of Pre war America.
Reluctantly I agree. Independent Vegas leads to more lawlessness. House is the only one who can keep these 2 from expanding. My hope is that it will force them both to nations to change and adapt. As much as I hate their governments and commanders, I don't want their civilians to suffer. House is the answer, even though he's an Ancap peice of waste.
What I’m wondering is if they make The New Lone Star Republic (New Texas) a thing in Fallout 5, because it would be interesting if NCR joining up with some other big faction was a thing. As for the Legion, the limited time they have been around and the Legion recruiting from tribes in sparsely populated areas would make it so the Legion still has less people than NCR, although not all of the NCR military will be in the campaign against the Legion due to keeping some in defense of the NCR.
I think alot of people wonder which faction is right and which ones are wrong. But i doesn't matter because none of them are right. It's just about who's less wrong.
It’s sad that all of this is just gonna be erased in the tv show. I’m really really REALLY upset with Todd Howard and BGS and how they’re handling the IP
Im sure its hard to give a real answer. Odd how obsidian's brand of writing Makes people still debate about it. I still consider legion lacking without a sentate. If that was a concept in game that would make the political drama more interesting when you want to approach it diplomatically by having major settlements take a stance and end the game with a treaty. Gives those who run a speech and diplomat time to flex. Instead of mindless bloodshed you can rally all minor and major factions call a vote. But heres the catch, you need to be idolized for this to work. Like civilization and total war. You need to prove yourself to be an ally.
@@theneocypher If you're taking any ideas, I would like to shoot one to you for a video. The idea of vulpas not becoming the Caesar and having the beast of the East assassinated so that he could take power and turn the legion into less of a pseudo militaristic society and more of a functioning centralized government utilizes espionage and secret police to function. Assuming you go for a post war legion victory at Hoover dam Because in all likelihood Lanius would drive the legion as a country into the ground. Under Vulpas I feel that the legion would be smarter and he would know how to utilize statecraft to truly form the legion into a superpower and in all likelihood he would create proxy wars with ncr to grind them down
i'd love to see a game that takes place in legion territory to a certain extent. they were so fascinating in New Vegas but you never even really got to see the legion, only war camps at the front line. and the only legion citizens you saw were those who were actively serving the military.
The main one I use is Poco Bueno! There are some others that kick in here and there and some that are specific to NPC,s, but 90% of the heavy lifting is done by Poco Bueno.
Both seem really good. I would not mind trying life in both. As crazy as this may sound, I might actually opt for the Legion out of the prospect that the NCR is constantly on a decline, and I feel that it wouldn’t take long for the Legion to eventually also industrialize
The legion would need to form some sort of taxation albeit small. This taxation would most likely be in the form of food, materials, and money if you had it. This was especially common at the beginning of campaigns. The legion would then be self-sufficient living/raiding off the land.
would definitely like to see the legion head farther east and come across the minutemen at some point (assuming the minutemen become the east coasts biggest upcoming faction/government)
I really want Fallout 5 to take place just outside or around the NCR (Or a much more fleshed out Minutemen controlled territory but many years down the line after Fallout 4), would absolutely love to see them again and maybe expand upon a warfare strategy mechanic.
what if i told you the value of the dollar never existed other than for the subjective idea that it does, and that the fall of a government doesnt necceserally mean anything other than it will stop being enforced as the ONLY legal currency ?
Im of the option that legion population js much lower than the ncr due to reliance on tribals plus keep in mind that the ncr polulation of 700k is only due to them only controlling southern california. Plus north cal and san Francisco could be up to two million on the higher end
I like how they went into the deep lore of how the two factions tax their people like I can’t just pickpocket peoples’ belongings and sell it back to them 😂
It is interesting how the Legion doesn't really resemble the actual late Roman Republic or the Roman Empire. The historical Roman during both the Republic and Empire heavily used conscription (even after the reforms attributed to Marius and before the late imperial increase in conscripts). During the mid Republic, almost the entire Roman army was a conscript army. Even during the late Republic that began to favor paid volunteers, Caesar and Pompey were both known to heavily conscript to fight in their civil wars. So it is surprising the Legion doesn't conscript from its own territories. And the historical Romans had a lot of civil wars...so it is surprising the Legion does not. The Romans also had a complex and extensive tax system...while the Legion does not.
I actually curious on how life in legion territory, since they have their own currency, it means trades exist there, like they already showed in the game, caravab life is easier on legion land, but knowing their society consist of slavery and military service, I do wonder is there even a civilian is legion territory? who and how the ordinary civilian life look like over there that they even have their own currency and those currency actually have any value
3:43 If whoever designed this hypothetical trade network was aware of real-world history, we can safely assume that if foreign trade isn't taxed, then the internal affairs aren't, either. It's honestly baffling that they wouldn't tax foreign trade at all. So much so that it makes me think he might have been referring to not being taxed EXCESSIVELY, rather than at all.
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In my head living in the NCR frontier is like the first Mad Max movie, there is a semblance of civilization in the Wasteland but sometimes a gang shows up and causes trouble
The first Mad Max movie is set before the nuclear war, something like the Resource Crisis period in Fallout.
@@pedrolobo4860 there was no nuclear war in mad max, resources were just severely depleted, at least in Australia.
@@Jumpingbadger913
You are wrong, after mad max 2 there’s global nuclear exchange (look it up)
@@Robert-Edwin-House. look it up
@@Robert-Edwin-House. he’s right
The legion is the type of nation/empire in history to take over a continent in only half a lifetime and then shatter overnight
Based
The imperium of man in a nutshell:
Conquered a million worlds in 3 centuries and got fucked in 9 years
Based
@RoyalImperium - Papa Khan
Yes, just some random dude just says: nah, I’d win
And he wins, against everyone
I've always found it interesting that when you talk to Hanlon, he mentions that the NCR had also run itself into the ground economically, where they screwed over their own water aquifers and have to expand economically, or else face disaster. Meanwhile when you barter with Legate Lanius, he's basically stripped apart the East to support this military campaign. Both sides are quite screwed short term, unless they win the Mojave.
That's why I screw both Factions over and take over The Mojave for myself, eventually both Factions will collapse and my Empire will annex both their territories
@@phicks7963 Yes indeed, until the exceptional individual that is you, were to pass away. What would the 2nd generation of free New Vegas look like?
@@AlphaAuroraNext Fallout protagonist called the Fixer comes in and destrys Vegas so the NCR wich is back to Fallout 2 levels of stability and rebuild it without the strippers.
@@agreatmanlookingtotheright You know.....I've seen the Amazon Fallout trailer, and you might be closer to what they have planned than you realize.
@@phicks7963 hell yeah
I'm curious to what extent the slave / citizen split is in the Legion. In Rome it was around 20% but in Ancient Athens it was much higher, with the average citizen having three or four slaves.
If the Legion doesn't charge taxes that does seem to indicate a large slave population, as the slaves would take care of agricultural and other resources rather than needing the civilian population to do it.
Roman plebs had riots over slave holding estates taking over all the work while they has nothing, I wonder if similar tensions exist in the Legion?
Im curious about this too. On one hand, I feel as if Caesar would only allow for trading of slaves within the Legion proper, as slaves being sold to subjects in a civilized land would be seen as a waste of resources. On the other hand, the courier is able to buy captures that didn’t meet criteria for serving the Legion. This evidence, in combination with the existence of the Offices of Slavery implies that the acquisition and selling of slaves is commonplace in Legion territories.
My main theory is that it is similarly low because they have them wherever their armies are to haul supplies and do menial tasks then whoever is unneeded is either killed or sent back into the legion for possible use in farms or whatnot.Also when a slave has children boys are often integrated into the army to become a legionary and the girls either remain a slave or find a place in the cult.
I guessing they use the Spartans structure rather than romans as Sparta relied heavily on slaves trained boys at a early age into the military
@@ln7929 that makes sense yeah
The Legion is not state nor government - this is huge nomad tribe, the army without taxes or standing economy, solution or patch for NCR, that means that towns over /Legion control/ is not /ruled by them/, so they are free. Slaves are only inside Legion and used like workhorse.
I always imagined that the people of NCR lived in what the United States was during the wild west period. That is, the closer you were to the heartland- Shady Sands, The Hub, L.A or Dayglow- the more civilized and protected your life would be. But the further out you went from the center of government and industry and civility, the more wild the world around you became. You'd go from the rebuilt urban centers with a lifestyle almost comparable to out own (obviously not as advanced or secure but you get the idea) to living in a situation like what we see in New Vegas.
Yes and they started manufacturing automobiles in Shady Sands, they almost lived like us
By the time of new vegas California is one of the safest places in post war america. The rest of the ncr is less safe
I think it makes sense for the NCR to have a considerably larger population than the Legion. California is after all the most populous state in America by a wide margin while the Legion states of Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, and Colorado is only half that of California combined.
But this is acceptable for Caesar as the Legion punches above its weight class because of its policy of mass tribal conscription, including child soldiers, and utilizing enslaved women as baby factories, so their military-to-civilian ratio is undoubtedly incredibly higher than the NCR's.
I think there just needs to be a retcon for the Legion to adopt technology on some levels. Like gun manufacturing plants. There's no way a pre-gunpowder group with less population is actually winning against a powder using military force.
@Generic Scout I always hear this maybe I’m playing on the wrong difficulty but I feel like every other legionnaires or every third legionnaires has a gun the confederates didn’t have much industry but still primarily used guns they just need to add gunsmiths and black powder founderies since most of their guns are like 1800s level anyway being lever action rifles or revolvers
@@josepigroyper370 The confederates did not have gatling guns, but the North could field them. Not having industry means just that. The Legion are shown in game making only machete's in their base. While the NCR goons are shown making modern M4a1's at their bases. In game the best the legion fields is basically on the level of the gun runners. They are shown to try to buy from the Van graffs. But it seems unlikely that the NCR groups on a large scale are selling weapons to the Legion. Pre war stockpiles I guess could be an answer like for the White legs. Although in a real war stockpiles don't actually last very long.
@@genericscout5408 both sides used gatling guns but don't think I don't understand your point I'm just saying there can be a huge industry gap and still be able to go toe to toe for a while example since I already use the civil war as an example for every rifle the south made the union made 9 despite this it wasn't until the south lost the veteran core of their fighting force in giant battles like Gettysburg that the union had a large advantage over the south aka years into the war in truth unless there is a massive tech gap the skill of the average solider and the capabilities of the officers matters more (of course unlike industry its often times easier to lose those officers and soldiers just in attrition)
they dont completely shun technology though. Caesar just stresses that they shouldnt be dependent on it. As soldiers move up in rank, they access more advanced weaponry since theyve proven theyre strong enough to succeed without it, and will only be more dangerous with it. Where does everyone get the idea that Legion = Ooga Booga
A good fan story that explores the relationship between the legion and its “citizens” is, “The Edge of Glory” by Interfectorem
Im gonna have to check this out
That's my Fic!! 😀😀 I'm Interfectorem the writer on that site! Because of your comment I'm gonna leave you a special shout-out on the next chapter of my current fic!
I know it's super late to edit, but I want to say this comment and video inspired me to start uploading the story I wrote in audiobook form on RUclips on a channel named "FalloutFanfics" so thank you for that!
@@roblesius1413 Thanks can’t wait for the next chapter
In reality, they can't be compared because the Legion wasn't fleshed out enough.
But Caesar's whole plan is for the Legion to conquer the NCR, and then become more like the NCR. It's his whole thesis, antithesis, synthesis, mumbo jumbo. He knows the Legion is lacking, but also believes that the NCR is lacking. His goal is to bring both together, and utilize the strengths of each. So people who back the Legion don't even understand what Caesar was trying to do.
@Eternal Forms Just like the original Caesar he is a conqueror and a great one at that
@ApolloBobTomthe legion has only conquered tribals in their land. None of the people it rules have a concept of a proper nation state in the fashion of the NCR. They only follow whoever is strongest. If caesar would content himself with his current lands the proper state he seeks to develop would never be built. He needs to conquer the NCR for it's citizens. Those citizens will want to reform the legion into an actual state which will give caesars ideals a chance when the legion civil war breaks out. This is also why legate lanius believes caesar withdrew too many men from the east to attack the west. Withdrawing those men from the east will result in the fall of the east. However for caesar this is a good thing, because if the east falls and most of the savages leave the legion, all that will be left is the civilised NCR citizens whom will then create a synthesis between the NCR and legion.
Problem with Caesar’s plan though is that regardless of what he has planned for the future, unless the courier directly interfere’s, he still has a deadly tumor in his head. If that's not safely removed his legion will pretty much die with him.
You should honestly think of a career as a politician, the way you pull a single sentence out of all he said and twist it in a way that its not technically wrong is honestly remarkable
Caesar wants to reform his tribal army into a more fleshed out state so yes on paper after the transformation it will be more like the NCR, but it would still very different thn NCR, it wouldnt be a "democracy", not even a constitutional monarchy, it wouldnt accept the influence of people like Brahmin Barons over the state and it wouldnt follow the stance NCR follows on technology. Would it be closer to NCR thn before? Yes but still miles away.
Now that you mention the economy i think it would’ve been funny if among all sorts of Legion quests involving terror tactics, infiltration and assassination, sabotage, total warfare and alliance building, one particularly harebrained Legion commander has the idea to make the already shitty NCR economy even worse somehow and the plan actually ends up working later into the game when NCR troops can’t even afford to buy a beer in downtime, let alone afford ammo
Like he’s got the only paper printing press in New Vegas and needs the Courier to bring what he needs to make adjustments to continuously print thousands upon thousands of authentic dollars and just start handing them around the frontier to mess with the NCR or something, I dunno I’m far from an economy expert
I would LOVE to see this lol
The Legion seems to have enslaved tribals as they were more common in the east. But the ending slides of the game state that towns like Novac are killed or enslaved. Without new slaves their society crumbles
Caesar calls the BOS a "insane backwards tribe" that's just what he calls factions
@@boreunoffp3639
At least the BOS has some cool ass tech and won't be annihilated when the NCR starts giving a shit about the Legion.
@@concept5631 the BOS was almost annihilated by the NCR.
@@GeraltofRivia22 almost
The Legion will.
@@concept5631they take Helios back if the legion wins
There's a mod for HOI4 that transforms the game to set it in the world of fallout. You can play a lot of faction, includind the NCR, the Legion, BOS...
And in it, the legion and ncr are both incredibly op because of sheer manpower, something strange though is how most of the time, without any intervention ncr even loses in California, getting pushed out of Nevada makes total sense, but them getting pushed into the heartland of California makes zero sense whatsoever
@@ultimatestuff7111
Balancing in that game needs a little polish now and again, especially for the likes of Kaga with his insanely OP riot control units.
Dont need much balancing. Its meant to be a single player exp. to give you the opportunity to conquer everything with every country that has a specific focus tree. You can win with the roach king ffs :D. its not balanced for MP and inheritley cant
@@ultimatestuff7111I think it makes sense, most scenarios in that game show the legion winning in Nevada pushing into California becoming more overextended and under supplied and being encircled and crushed by the A.I many times. Which is what the courier says to Lanius at the end of NV
@@ultimatestuff7111in most of my play, the legion just explode before they can even take a state from the NCR
There is also the issue of the Legion's recruitment pool. What happens if they run out of tribes to assimilate, either by absorption or tribes moving away? What if there's a major battle that greatly wears down their numbers? There's no way the Legion can replenish such severe numbers through reproducing amongst their ranks alone, and certainly not in a short enough time. Especially if they usually don't enslave or recruit their non tribal subjects that they conquer.
If there's a sudden void of manpower and they're forced to pull from their non Legion subjects, no doubt that'll cause an uproar, definitely more than it does for the NCR and their conscription system. Not to mention diminishing any logistical support those territories were providing as tribute, whether money or food to supply the Legion forces.
This problem also would be compounded if Caesar himself is killed, since it seems his immediate successors don't have the mind for logistics or governance like he does.
that's, kind of a problem with every military ever? running out of manpower is bad. that's not exactly an issue with any specific type of army. it's not a present issue with the legion, it's just a bad thing that can happen.
that's like, say for example, you're holding a sandwich. and you think to yourself "what if i drop this sandwich?" and then you then think "okay, an issue with the sandwich is that i can drop it." doesn't make sense.
"tribes" is a more vague statement than literally like, tribal societies like native american tribes, like what you see in honest hearts. it would include groups that you see in the game like the 3 families on the strip, those would be considered as "tribes" that the legion can assimilate. especially considering caesar directly offers an alliance to the white gloves society, who are clearly not "tribal" in any sense, but are a group or "tribe" of sorts. under certain conditions, you can also find that the fantastic dude at helios one literally joins the legion all of a sudden, in the outfit and everything.
none of caesar's successors are any good though, with lanius being the worst. at least vulpes does actually care for the legion itself, lanius only wants bloodshed. in the event that the courier sides with the legion, they'd be the perfect successor (if they have good intelligence at least). caesar does seem to give the courier better treatment than lanius, even minting their likeness on coins.
@@cr1tikal_arc not exactly. From the way the Legion behaves it seems like a nomadic warrior society that lives and breathes war - much like the Huns, Pechenegs, etc
@@LucasDimoveo except that's not how they work at all. they work with any tribe that is willing to accept their influence and aren't straight up degenerates.
caesar even says himself that he wants to combine the strengths of the ncr and legion to create a perfect society.
despite what reddit ncr chuds will try to tell you, the legion are not bloodthirsty savages. that problem can only be found within lanius, who's the legion's greatest field commander but only lives for war. and that's an issue that lies within lanius himself, not the legion.
@@cr1tikal_arc you’re basically saying “everyone can get cancer, therefore everyone has the same risk of getting cancer.”
@@dathunderman4 i mean not really, but this dude tried saying it was a specific issue with the legion, when.. it's not. there's nothing to indicate that it is an issue, if anything they have more manpower compared to population than the NCR. manpower is not an issue for them at all. "what if they run out of tribes to assimilate" then by that point they have already conquered the entire US. and even then, there'd still be canada and mexico if they wanted that too
I dont think the population section takes into account the areas both nations control California is one of the mostly climate wise pleasant places in the US it is almost perfect to build a nation out of while the Legions entire country is mostly centered around the most arid hottest place in America a literal desert I think this rather important to bring up.
It would also be the most devastated though. California has Military Bases all over it. Every Major City has one. We'd be hit with the most nukes and likely entirely glassed. The Bay Area has multiple Air Stations. LA has a full Air Force Base, San Diego has Camp Pendleton, Naval Bases, SEAL Training, Miramar, ect. We'd be completely wiped off the face of the planet.
The Arizona Mountains aren't that hot.
@@LoganLS0 Arizona literally has Death Valley
@@TheDarkendstar Death Valley is in California.
@@LoganLS0 okay that feels like some fucking Mandela effect shit I swear my association with Death Valley has always been arizona
As we've only seen mostly the military might of the Legion, I like the idea that things aren't all bad in legion territories. They might have more free will to individuals than it looks as the traders from the east make it out to be. They are strict on drugs, alcohol, and crime but maybe provide great prosperity within conquered cities that may be attempting to replicate Rome with colosseums, new post-war structures being constructed, and an upper public class that enjoys more luxurious things and upholds cultural standards that Caesar likes.
I wish someone made an ambitious mod to bring Flagstaff to life. I’d imagine it as a New Rome, a mix of old buildings, makeshift material and stonework
Somewhat late response but:
In universe Raul will tell you that he has been to Arizona before and after the Legion took control and he says that life is obviously better. True he focuses on safety but taking into account his past that's not very surprising.
Cassidy will also begrudgingly admit things would probably be better under Legion rule.
This would imply that in universe the standard of living in Legion territory is high enough that people outside its control have at least heard of it.
out of universe Sawyer has said that life in legionland is okay, no problems with access to food, water, electricity with the biggest selling point being the safety.
@@LitDCass only says that she feels her caravan would've been safe, not that life was better. She does say that all caravans under the Legion protection are unharmed.
I don't recall any evidence in game for the claim that the Legion only enslaves tribals and that food, water, etc are plentiful in Legion lands. The only positive I hear of is security (as per Cass, Raul, and the one merchant at the front of the Fort), never actual prosperity. Which makes sense. They don't really seem to promote an advanced economy whatsoever, at most tenant farming... which in large swathes of Arizona, New Mexico, and part of Colorado... well, it's like trying to squeeze water out of stone. Without the water pumped from the Colorado River in real life, big chunks of that would be completely unlivable (though to be far, the same is also true for the far southern reaches of California).
As to the claim that they never enslave non-tribals, the games endings actually have them enslaving and/or killing the majority of the people in Vegas and the Mojave, and only THEN "peacefully lording" over the rest, which seems to suggest that the whole "no enslavement unless you're in a tribe" deal isn't very true.
@@JB-xl2jcthey do say the Mojave isn’t how they normally do things but vegas is literally the antithesis to the legion I mean it’s entirely filled with drug and alcohol addicts, most of which are ncr troops or citizens
Oh hey, I caught a fresh episode! Each one's gotten better as you refine your skills, and I figure I ought to subscribe! I've been browsing through the fallout lore and each video looks slicker than the last! The Tragedy of Raul Tejada was very well done. This was a great breakdown of the strengths of the Legion and the NCR, along with their weaknesses. Neither seemed a great option at the time of the game, and House was perfectly positioned between these two powers. I hope one day Fallout will visit the region again with a well made, and well written game.
Thanks so much for tuning into my content! I’m stoked you like the videos and excited to see you around for more of my uploads! 💪🏻
The legion's pronunciation of Caesar is how they said it in the days of Gaius Julius Caesar. The See-zer pronunciation of today is a later version of Latin.
The Germans have been saying it right since forever.
This game need a remaster or a direct sequel
The outer worlds was a sequel to House ending...
A big thing I'm noticing with the major powers of the apocalypse is they all have approximately 4 states worth of size, from fallout 4 with the BOS I'd be willing to be the canon ending will either be them or minutemen but no matter what that would bringthem up to 4 states as they definitely have Maryland, Pennsylvania from logs and likely also NY/NJ leading to massachussets. Wonder if Bethesda will have them get in big fights or grow more major powers of roughly the same size.
This video is so well done that it makes me appreciate what lore Obsidian was able to establish, while also wishing they had more time to really expand upon it further than the short deadline Bethesda allowed them.
and then that all changed when the mail man came, he took both the Legion and the NCR by storm and made his own Empire.
Until the ending credits roll and say everything descends into anarchy, bloodshed, and nothing gained
@@ZMCFERON *Reload save and fix the story from depressing emo goth story*
@@ZMCFERON *wipes out the finds, khans, brotherhood
Love your content. I look forward to seeing more.
Thank you so much! 🙏
We won’t get an FNV 2, but if we ever do. I hope they keep the exact same game and expand upon it and implement all their ideas that they couldn’t implement because of the time restraints and old gen console restrictions. Would love to see more Legion locations to the east and a true Las Vegas strip.
This is something that has been playing on my mind ALOT. Caesar is 55 how the hell did he take over so much of land in such short time, we really need to see inside the NCR in one of these games , the whole world being still this broken after 200 years makes no sense
Look up Alexander the Great.
There was a power vacuum and he was the only one around to fill it.
Considering from context it seems that Caesar has been a war lord for 2-3 decades by the time of NV it's not really that unbelievable.
He's been using more advanced tactics and training against unorganized tribes with little to no training beyond skirmishes with equally unorganized bands.
Genocide. It’s easier to rapidly expand when you leave a wasteland in their rear
The world is still broken because the newer games focus to much on the ashes rather than what rises from them. It makes the world more broken than it should be, an issue which is fixable by setting fallout 3 and 4 back by say 160 years
I won't forget that one trader you meet at Caesars camp that talked about the Legion's territory. How there were no raiders, constant security for caravans, and no toll taxs for the trade caravans
yeah, doesen't matter if its efficient if living there is worse than taking your chances in the wastes, atleast you wont get crucified by the NCR's lame taxes, also taxes are for infrastructure and thats desperately needed in the apocalypse
@@circleinforthecube5170 The entire point is that it's not worse. Being crucified for fucking with the Legion is one thing, being under constant threat of mutant creatures, ghouls, fiends and raiders is very obviously much worse
@@circleinforthecube5170degenerate
For the legion I don't think there is any "civilian" aspects. I think it's purely military and trade. You're either in the military or you're not, it's just whether or not you're on the frontlines.
People living in conquered cities were free to do whatever as long as they didn't interrupt the Legions operations
I’ve read there was originally suppose to be a lot more legion content in New Vegas with more settlements in Arizona. But the developers didn't have the time and budget to make them and had to make do with what they had.
@@rog3785No, they had mass enslavement and pretty clear restrictions on the autonomy of its constituency.
@@dawn4383 Where does it say that exactly? Because in game it says people living in conquered cities are free to do as they please
Love the thumbnail I can finally see how both territories look like
I don't think the Legion is that big tho
@@concept5631 they did somewhat get as far up as Utah giving if they reached Salt Lake city
An important point you did NOT bring up, sir, is the status of women; in the NCR there is gender equality, whereas in the Legion territories, women are (explicitly and canonically) viewed as subhuman property. This is a rather glaring oversight when comparing the two.
May I suggest an analysis of a legion/BoS alliance? The brotherhood doesn't seek to rule as a nation, simply enclaves of an insular society. Caesar could tolerate their existence since they would have no interest in being rivals. The legion restricts advanced technology and the brotherhood hordes it so there's not much overlap plus on the occasion the legion needs heavy firepower, they could call on the brotherhood as allies yet remaining separate from their society.
Similar to the imperium and mechanicus in 40k
part of me is saying this is just an excuse to realise Schizo Elijah's dreams, and the other part is telling me that this makes perfect sense
Hmm 🤔 This sounds intriguing. I will have to look into it!
@@smokeyplane3285 I believe recruiting the brotherhood to the legions side was cut content. You had to do a persuade check on caesar to convince him to spare the brotherhood, then do the existing brotherhood missions to join them. Once you're accepted, you had to secure helieos one for them to get them to ally with caesar. They didn't plan on what form brotherhood aid would take for the hoover dam battle.
@Mister Majestic they certainly aren't as ruthless as the legion but they won't have much love for the ncr after having just lost a war against them. The prydwin crew in Boston for instance wouldn't have an issue with legion control so long as advanced technology is handed to them which caesar is happy to do.
Also keep in mind technology isn't outright banned in the legion, high ranking troops that have demonstrated their strength are permitted not only guns but even stealth boys and medicine. The legion is sure to have a few dozen shoulder fired SAM lying around when needed. That's why the ncr couldn't just bomb caesar.
I don't think Caesar is a good faith actor. He uses groups in the Mojave to weaken the NCR, but he doesn't respect them. I don't think he would respect any alliance with the BoS either, once he got what he wanted out of it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't NCR soldiers complain about how the rangers and heavy infantry seem to spend most of their time chasing brahmin rustlers and bandits within the NCR's corelands?
I admit it has been a while since I played but I seem to remember hearing that a fair bit from various characters.
As for religion I always understood (from the first two games as well as some characters in NV) that various brands of christianity are the primary religion, without any single brand dominating and often being relegated to "local cults" wiht only the mormons (or rather new caananites) being a larger single faith.
“Chasing ghosts out in Baja” but by the time of the Battle for Hoover, they are already en route to reinforce the border
@@johnnyhuynh9016
The Heavy Troopers were Oliver's pet project and so are more focused at the Dam, while the vast majority of the Black Rangers are still in the Baja, only the vanguard units at at Hoover by the start of the battle, mainly because Oliver despises them.
its always refreshing to see unbiased legion videos in fnv great vid bro I hope u can monetize your channel soon u definitely deserve it
Thanks you! I appreciate that! 💪🏻
Hilarious that everything is so politicized now that finding an "unbiased" video on a fictional society from a video game is refreshing.
@@TerexJ Everything has always been politicized
@@rbfilms4752 Not in absolute monarchies. You think there were any political parties in Darius's Persia or Alexander's Macedonia, or Caesar's Legion for that matter? Hell neezy. That shit was for the birds. You either were either down with the emperor or you get thrown off a mountain and then he gets turned into a llama or something.
I for one am down with dictatorship for the sole reason of putting an end to all of the retarded political arguments I've had to listen to and all of the garbage political memes mucking up the internet.
It's very eyeroll inducing when people pretend "I agree with this" is equivalent to "this is unbiased".
I just started playing New Vegas again, it's been a few years since I last played it, and this time I'm doing a deep dive into the lore 😮
Basically saying the USA shot itself in the foot when it removed the gold standard currency.
It sure doesn’t seem very ideal to have a currency not backed by a physical commodity lol
Not necessarily. As a military superpower fiat currency has a bit more weight to it, and it gives the state a bit more influence on the economy, bailouts etc. We basically went from the gold standard to the nuke standard.
@@cpob2013 docent work anymore countries around the globe world loosing respect for the USA more & more because of our constantly weakening leadership & are forming new alliances with out the USA. Plus the nuke answer disappeared once more than 1 country developed them. You can't bully someone with nukes if they also have nukes.
@@theneocypherIn our timeline America is still a world superpower and is more powerful than ever (and also the Legion is a backwards slave state that doesn't understand what made Rome work)
The problem with a fiat currency in the NCR is that people who aren't NCR don't believe in it.
The USA, on the other hand, is a dominant superpower. With California alone being one of the largest economys in the entire world. People believe in the US dollar, though of course, it's still susceptible to inflation. But people all over the world still believe in it. The NCR 's mistake is puffing themselves up as the inheritors of the USA far too early.
People say that the Legion's territory is safer than NCR's, and they're right. You know, unless you're a mutant, or a woman, or gay, or a doctor, or sell alcohol, or sell weapons they consider "too advanced"
You're wrong about the weapon part
@@joshuagonzalez5959 Based on dialogue, I doubt Caesar would be happy with you selling his soldiers Gatling Lasers or Plasma Caters
@@CyberController- did you even work for the van grafs
@@joshuagonzalez5959 Yeah, that always confused me. Caesar's whole "weapons of blood and bone" thing implies that he prefers his soldiers use melee weapons or simple gunpowder rifles. That's the only point in the game I can remember where they try to buy energy weapons.
@@CyberController- he doesn't want to use an army of robots to do all the work for him cause it will make them lazy
I love OWB, a hoi4 mod set in the fallout universe!
@Eternal Forms played the enclave reborn mod an destroyed ncr and ceasers legion
Love the video. Your channel deserves more subscribers.
Thank you so much!!!
@@theneocypher You're welcome. Proud to be your new subscriber.
The Legion's territory is primarily in the least hospitable and nearly the least population, precisely because they are the least hospitable. California's population, even prior to the mass migration to the west coast around the time of WW2, and even without modern technology, eclipsed that of the Legion's current territory by a huge margin. Taking into consideration California's modern state as the most populous state in the country, I would say this bumps up their numbers even more. Simply having cities doesn't mean much when those cities have without a doubt become desolate as a result of being located in a desert with little to no trade or infrastructure for centuries, meanwhile California rebuilt those things long before any of the states that now constitute the Legion. Similarly, simple geographical size is not a deciding factor either, as again, these areas are among the least densely populated in the country, and there examples of other countries, such as Russia, possessing massive territory but with a relatively small population compared to other major powers.
And subscribed always good to see fallout analysis/speculation channels
Thank you so much!
the reason the legion is "safer" is probably because that's what they want you to think. You have barely any interactions with legion citizens and you don't really see anywhere that's actually under their control and the ending for them is mass slavery to fund their next war. By contrast you have way more interactions with the NCR and since their society is much more open you get a more honest view of what people think and how life actually is there.
I'd love a video on the cult of Mars
I would love to make one! Let me add that to the list!
I know it's probably not canon anymore, but wouldn't the legion be clashing with the midwestern brotherhood chapter in the east of their territory?
I really hope they eventually make a fallout game in Legion territory, they could talk about the collapse of the legion, or some sort of fighting there. (I think the legion would at the very least see some big infighting once Caeser would die with many high-ranking legionnaires in my opinion vying for power, I could be wrong, but it would be really cool seeing the breakup of the legion and a game based in such a large area.) They could also talk about a slave revolt due to the heavy reliance on slaves to power the nation if someone like Caeser died, I think a slave revolt would be inevitable.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes me wish for a Giant Sweet roll!
I wonder, does the Legion control any vaults? If so how would they react to finding one?
I'd imagine they'd consider them a tribe and enslave the vault dwellers (Caesar calls the brotherhood of steel a backwards tribe)
Well done on your analysis with NCR and Legion territories. While there's no evidence to back this, I wouldn't be surprised if Bioware, the creators of Star Wars The Old Republic took some notes on the major factions between these two for their aforementioned game. Because their Galactic Republic vs. Sith Empire faction war reminds me of NCR vs. Legion. A democratic-elected government body against a totalitarian dictatorship.
I honestly wish the Legion was a little bit more fleshed out in lore kinda like how Elder Scrolls: Skyrim made their opposing factions of Imperial Legion vs. Stormcloaks somewhat difficult to pick who to side with. Even though I know the flaws of both factions, I find myself siding with NCR on almost every playthrough. Probably because I tend to be a bit of a do-gooder in open world roleplaying games. I actually have to put a bit of effort in going the evil route.
I love the look of the NPC mod(s) you are using. Especially when it comes to the NCR and Legion NPCs. Is it all in one mod, and if so, which mod? Great video. 👍
02:09 im curious where on earth you get this info from when in-game there are no mention of this statement. If you ask siri (the enslaved would-be doctor) she's definitely not a tribal as she implied that she had some degree of doctor education before legion took over her town and enslaved her. Having a place of learning doesnt sem tribal-like.
I mean I am not defending that statement but I think he was talking generally, she was most likely enslaved in a raid before Legion officially occupied their territory.
I mean The Legion considers the Brotherhood of steel a backwards tribe
I wonder just how much casualties or damage that you did to the legion after ruining many things that the legion has stood for like killing vulpes, bust the spy at mcarran, destroy Cottonwood cove and the fort and not to mention in the lonesome road dlc you nuke part of the legions territory and also killing ceaser and lanius
Must've been a crippling blow to the legion. Plans destroyed, boss and second in command destroyed and one of their states got the nagasaki and hiroshima treatment.
Cottonwood cove ingame only has a couple dozen legionaries in it but its possibly just an engine issue whereas in the lore it probably had at least 80 men stationed in or around the place (since its led by a centurion)
But I don’t think it’ll be crippling in term of casualties (for armies that number in upwards of tens thousands), but mostly a setback in term of controling territory past the river
@@KalashVodka175 what about the part where you nuke the legion?
@@Ray_not
Oh. Oh yeah
@@KalashVodka175Smartest Legion person
@@KalashVodka175…and you also forgot about the chain of command dying…
I need those god damn Caesar Legion Helmet Pilum mods.
The name of the mod is “We are Legion” by Dragbody. You won’t find it on nexus sadly. I think I originally found a link to it somewhere on Reddit!
@@theneocypher Are there any other ways of getting the mod because I have found the mod but It is annoying to get so are there any other mods that basically do the dame as the "We are Legion" Mod?
Not that I have found sadly
@@theneocypher Thanks for helping, Cypher.
Following the death of Caesar and large percentage of his army in the region Known as New Vegas, the lands of the Legion fall into civil strife as the Legion no longer had the strength to prevent the tension that existed before their arrival and had built over their short reign.
Which 5 years following the second Battle of hoover Dam, Flagpole had long forgotten it former protectors being replaced by raiders and warlords.
The City did however remain an important settle and became the centre of one of the region's powers, after it was traded by the sons of Caesar and Wolf Legion between the so called shattering, a 16 year long conflict between Legion rememants and new/Old Tribal alliances.
Interesting video. I wonder how an Independent Vegas would do in the future. I know people like to point to the whole anarchy stuff, but you know, it is expected for a while considering an entire new government is coming into play. Specially into a post-apocalyptic world.
I don’t necessarily believe it is taxation as a whole but rather who it’s directed at. The NCR’s corruption likely meant Brahmin Barons and the wealthy elites of the NCR don’t have to pay as much tax as they should, and as a result average citizens have to step up to pay the costs. The NCR’s expansionist and imperialist policies also meant its own territories are neglected and parts underdeveloped, and again the average citizen pays the price. NCR’s problem isn’t necessarily democracy but rather greed or more specifically its economic system.
Well the house , The House Always Wins.
I disagree that the Legion is as populated as the NCR. The Legion conquests involved more tribal areas, which tend to have a lower population than the developed urban centers the NCR captured. And while the NCR eradicated tribes, they don’t rely on them for population growth and often do so to make room for Californian settlers (who most likely have high growth rates like most settler populations). Additionally, the Legion’s distrust of technology means the infant mortality rate is much higher, and thus population growth is probably lower. Estimate wise I’d guess the Legion has around 1 million people and the NCR around 2-3 times that.
Is the ncr a successor state of the US?
Yes, although it’s not associated with the pre-war American governmental remnants.
I see, I thought since the ncr for the most part is a system that carries the ideals of religious pluralism and democracy, the ideals of Pre war America.
De facto, yes.
If the legion loses they should do a post legion arizona witch has devolved into warlords and tribes
Mean the moment ceaser dies means the legion collapses
Gotta go with house on this
Reluctantly I agree. Independent Vegas leads to more lawlessness. House is the only one who can keep these 2 from expanding. My hope is that it will force them both to nations to change and adapt. As much as I hate their governments and commanders, I don't want their civilians to suffer. House is the answer, even though he's an Ancap peice of waste.
What I’m wondering is if they make The New Lone Star Republic (New Texas) a thing in Fallout 5, because it would be interesting if NCR joining up with some other big faction was a thing. As for the Legion, the limited time they have been around and the Legion recruiting from tribes in sparsely populated areas would make it so the Legion still has less people than NCR, although not all of the NCR military will be in the campaign against the Legion due to keeping some in defense of the NCR.
I think alot of people wonder which faction is right and which ones are wrong. But i doesn't matter because none of them are right. It's just about who's less wrong.
In that case the NCR is less wrong and the Legion is most wrong. It isn't even a contest.
It’s sad that all of this is just gonna be erased in the tv show. I’m really really REALLY upset with Todd Howard and BGS and how they’re handling the IP
I really enjoyed the flex of not acknowledging that Fallout 3, 4, and 76 exist.
NCR has a way better strategic position with the ocean at its back
Im sure its hard to give a real answer. Odd how obsidian's brand of writing Makes people still debate about it. I still consider legion lacking without a sentate.
If that was a concept in game that would make the political drama more interesting when you want to approach it diplomatically by having major settlements take a stance and end the game with a treaty. Gives those who run a speech and diplomat time to flex. Instead of mindless bloodshed you can rally all minor and major factions call a vote. But heres the catch, you need to be idolized for this to work. Like civilization and total war. You need to prove yourself to be an ally.
As I understand it, NCR's money is backed by water. It was backed by gold until the BoS destroyed NCR's reserves.
The fallout show just said, “huh uh” to the ncr 😂
Great content man.
Thanks so much!
@@theneocypher If you're taking any ideas, I would like to shoot one to you for a video. The idea of vulpas not becoming the Caesar and having the beast of the East assassinated so that he could take power and turn the legion into less of a pseudo militaristic society and more of a functioning centralized government utilizes espionage and secret police to function. Assuming you go for a post war legion victory at Hoover dam Because in all likelihood Lanius would drive the legion as a country into the ground.
Under Vulpas I feel that the legion would be smarter and he would know how to utilize statecraft to truly form the legion into a superpower and in all likelihood he would create proxy wars with ncr to grind them down
This is a fascinating idea! I’m absolutely going to look into this for a future video
11:39 and probably Christianity because Misfit O'Hanrahan mentions being taught to be nice or he'll make Baby Jesus cry.
You are absolutely right!
i'd love to see a game that takes place in legion territory to a certain extent. they were so fascinating in New Vegas but you never even really got to see the legion, only war camps at the front line. and the only legion citizens you saw were those who were actively serving the military.
Thank you for this video. Amazing job.
Whats the texture pack being used in this video? I really like it, would love to use it on my own
The main one I use is Poco Bueno! There are some others that kick in here and there and some that are specific to NPC,s, but 90% of the heavy lifting is done by Poco Bueno.
@@theneocypher Alright, and what about those specific "to-NPC" packs? Legion armor is awesome 🥵
Hahah I use “We are Legion by Dragbody” for Legion, and “FCO - Fallout character overall” for the rest of the NPCs.
@@theneocypher Thank,s a lot man, i really ✨appreciate✨ it
Both seem really good. I would not mind trying life in both. As crazy as this may sound, I might actually opt for the Legion out of the prospect that the NCR is constantly on a decline, and I feel that it wouldn’t take long for the Legion to eventually also industrialize
The legion outright refuses to advance technologically though
Just for their military, they dont want their soldiers becoming complacent and reliant on new tools.
The legion would need to form some sort of taxation albeit small. This taxation would most likely be in the form of food, materials, and money if you had it. This was especially common at the beginning of campaigns. The legion would then be self-sufficient living/raiding off the land.
They both do good when showing the pros and cons of the kind of community they represent, that's how you know Cesar is doomed yo fail
would definitely like to see the legion head farther east and come across the minutemen at some point (assuming the minutemen become the east coasts biggest upcoming faction/government)
You did a great job man! Dank vid
I really want Fallout 5 to take place just outside or around the NCR (Or a much more fleshed out Minutemen controlled territory but many years down the line after Fallout 4), would absolutely love to see them again and maybe expand upon a warfare strategy mechanic.
That would be great!
@@theneocypher I have so many ideas for so many future Fallout games, many different potential factions, stories, etc.
what if i told you the value of the dollar never existed other than for the subjective idea that it does, and that the fall of a government doesnt necceserally mean anything other than it will stop being enforced as the ONLY legal currency ?
Im of the option that legion population js much lower than the ncr due to reliance on tribals plus keep in mind that the ncr polulation of 700k is only due to them only controlling southern california. Plus north cal and san Francisco could be up to two million on the higher end
I want a new west coast fallout that happens after the 2nd battle of Hoover Dam 😢
I like how they went into the deep lore of how the two factions tax their people like I can’t just pickpocket peoples’ belongings and sell it back to them 😂
I really think the Enclave would have been the dominating faction in the east coast. But you know, we can't make our poster boy BoS to look bad.
It is interesting how the Legion doesn't really resemble the actual late Roman Republic or the Roman Empire. The historical Roman during both the Republic and Empire heavily used conscription (even after the reforms attributed to Marius and before the late imperial increase in conscripts). During the mid Republic, almost the entire Roman army was a conscript army. Even during the late Republic that began to favor paid volunteers, Caesar and Pompey were both known to heavily conscript to fight in their civil wars. So it is surprising the Legion doesn't conscript from its own territories. And the historical Romans had a lot of civil wars...so it is surprising the Legion does not. The Romans also had a complex and extensive tax system...while the Legion does not.
I was always purely on NCR. But considering the wasteland and slavery aside...the Legion has some points
5:18 casually owns 918,000 caps
>crushing taxes
>ever inflating currency
Hail to caezar!
As a former Flagstaff citizen, Legion choosing Flag cracks me up, easily one of the worst cities in the state.
Legion propaganda
Whered they get all this ancient equipment?
I actually curious on how life in legion territory, since they have their own currency, it means trades exist there, like they already showed in the game, caravab life is easier on legion land, but knowing their society consist of slavery and military service, I do wonder is there even a civilian is legion territory? who and how the ordinary civilian life look like over there that they even have their own currency and those currency actually have any value
True to Caesar!
Ave!
@@theneocypher amicus! :)
So basically the Legion is America when it wiped out the Indians.
Not that’s the ncr when they massacred bitter springs
Cesar's legion isn't a rehash of Rome. Ironically, he's a rehash of Atilla the Hun.
I just have spent my first play through just going
I want that NCR rifle
I’m still confused why anyone would want to live under the NCR as a regular citizen you’d be fucked into poverty
Being poor is better than being a slave.
@@10gamer64plus you’d be allowed to get drunk
You completly ignored the NCR food crisis and also somhow managed to portay the legion way to positivlz
Y'all ready for Bethesda to retcon all this in their new tv show🤣🤣
I side with Yes Man because governments and corporations caused the apocalypse to begin with. Return to tribal and city state.
They already were tribals, and that was a shit life too.
3:43 If whoever designed this hypothetical trade network was aware of real-world history, we can safely assume that if foreign trade isn't taxed, then the internal affairs aren't, either. It's honestly baffling that they wouldn't tax foreign trade at all. So much so that it makes me think he might have been referring to not being taxed EXCESSIVELY, rather than at all.
Had to come back to real Fallout lore to escape the Mickey Mouse cartoon Amazon made.
L