Why Kermit The Frog Doesn't Sound The Same Anymore
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
- Kermit the Frog is one of the most iconic characters ever created. Jim Henson' The Muppets took the world by storm, and has carried a legacy of comedic entertainment for almost 50 years. But when Disney acquired The Muppets from The Jim Henson Company, one performer started pushing back to preserve the legacy of Kermit the Frog and ended up being let go from the iconic character.
#TheMuppets #KermitTheFrog #Nerdstalgic
Written by Chris Teregis
Edited by Dan Smiley 
Развлечения
Who's your favorite Muppet?
Gonzo. Always Gonzo. 😀
Kermit and Fozzie
And that scientist assistant and Swedish chef
Kermit is how I feel, Gonzo is who I am
Gonzo and Animal as a kid now it’s more of Rolf and Kermit
I do agree with Steve. If you're voice acting, and puppeteering a character for over 30 years, no one knows the character better than you. Because in a way, that Puppet is a part of you, but you also gotta make it grow. But like... 30 years. You have to at least listen to him a bit, even if you don't like it.
This is a great example or conservatives vs progressives.
On the one hand Disney wanted to PROGRESS the character of Kermit. Maybe a bit too far but that's their right.
The voice actor, on the other hand, wanted to CONSERVE the character as he knew him.
Neither is right or wrong.
But since they couldn't find a common middle ground this is what we got. A talented performer let go and a subpar interpretation of a character.
A real analog, if you will, for modern day life.
See that's the funny thing you actually don't. I mean it would probably be a good idea to do so but as shown in the video Steve has no actual power or real say in the direction of the character.
@@riffrucar6416 that's not the direct point.
Explicitly, no he has no power. But any person in Disney with experience and more importantly wisdom, will understand that after 30 years you have a deep understanding of the character.
Especially since whoever was calling the shots definitely would not have 30 years of experience.
@@NoTimeLeft_ lol yeah this video was about POLITICS
Well, there was a point in the show where it changed direction, and they pretty much made the changes he was asking for. Whether or not that's a coincidence or intentional, I don't know. But the change in direction resulted in even worse ratings. It wasn't doing bad enough to get canceled until after the changes were made. I'm sure that didn't exactly make Disney happy.
This video has a strange "Steve was in the wrong" vibe, despite presenting no conclusive evidence in either direction...
The argument "times change" also doesn't really work fully in this case either, because evidently Steve's concerns about the 2015 show were indeed founded in the end. In fact 'Muppets Haunted Mansion' went back to a more classic Muppets format, and (anecdotally speaking) did much better both critically and with fan reception.
Yeah, this video was weird.
Seriously, it feels like he’s trying to get invited to the next Disney premier.
I was getting that too.
Yep. Pretty sure the guy who did the character for 30 years! Was in the right there.
That’s funny, I think it’s overly generous to Whitmire.
So Steve basically got fired for saying the office knockoff of the muppets sucked and he was right as the audience agreed that it wasn't the muppets. Good job Disney.
I kind of liked that version of the Muppets. Maybe it’s just because it felt more like how they would be when the cameras weren’t rolling. Even though the cameras were rolling.
@@dubbingsync I did too
I can only imagine the menage a trois they will have kermit involved in now :(
Kermit will probably end up a non binary minor attracted them in a love trist with Mr/Ms.Piggy and Beaker :(
@@stevenrogersfineart4224 well Jurassic park did teach us that some frogs can change genders. So i think we are doomed either way.
actually bad job Disney they will be sued for firing Steve Whitmire in my opinion about Steve Whitmire was trying to protect Kermit The Frog from Disney because Steve Whitmire was doing Jim Henson a favor
First off, I loved The Muppets series. But I'm one of a few.
And I can't say I agree with the overall idea here. Just because someone OWNS a property, that doesn't mean they know what's best for the project. ESPECIALLY when it comes to someone coming in 30 years later and trying to change it. Now, i do agree with change being needed. But as any good director will tell you, you have to listen to your actors. They know the characters better. They just do. Creating a show or movie, is a collaboration, and needs to be treated as such.
Now not defending Steve outright here, if you swim upstream from change, yes you'll get let go. BUT I don't agree with Disney's my way or the highway attitude. But also...that's Disney for ya.
Yes! This precisely sums up how I feel exactly. Steve played Kermit for decades before Disney came along. Not to mention he was picked by Jim Hansen to play Kermit. Not only is he far more familiar to the character, he at least as an idea, after playing Kermit for so long, how The Muppets operate, trying to stay connected to Jim Hansen's vision.
Now I am not saying that change isn't needed, but Disney needs to understand that when you have a long, LONG established property that generally already has an established image and ways within it's own property that people come to expect, than any radical changes might not turn out so well.
If Steve was, indeed, unprofessional, then I am not going to defend him there. But on how he feels about how Kermit should be acted out and played, after playing him for 30 years, I am certainly going to agree with him here.
The ABC show was fantastic.
I loved the old Kermit voice and to me nothing will replace it
Agreed. Mark Hamill had voiced how he disagreed with the portrayal of Luke in the Sequel Trilogy and...look what we got. Even Temuera Morrison for Boba Fett has said how he thinks he talks too much and it ruins the mystery of the character. These actors DO have an eye for what the character should be after playing them for so long.
Now that said...I absolutely hate the route that Picard is going but Patrick Stewart seems fine with it. So it can't be said for everyone.
This 👏
Disney only "truly seeks to honor" their profits. They have absolutely zero respect for anything that isn't money. If they thought making Kermit hot pink tomorrow would bring in more money, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Just look at what they did to Star Wars with the sequel trilogy. Creative integrity is a foreign concept to their executives.
Thank thank thank thank thank you Disney is by far one of the worst companies and is a cancer to beloved established characters I wish some of these companies just didn't care about money (I know I sound unrealistic) but Disney just murders everything!!!!!!!!!
@@cookingwitchefzayy8830 1976
@@cookingwitchefzayy8830 That or virtue signaling these days.
Thanks for the comment, you articulated what I wanted to say better than I could have done.
This rings true with Encanto as well. The creatives had to fight like hell to give Luisa, the character with incredible strength as her gift, muscles. Disney execs thing women can't have muscles. They made way more merch of Isabela, the pretty, pink, perfect sister, because that's what kids want. But it turns out they gravitate to a strong (in this sense literally) woman who is also emotionally aware and intelligent.
Wasn't expecting Nerdstalgic to shill so hard for Disney. Steve is right, the fact that the show was cancelled after 17 episodes kinda proves that
I have no idea where you got the impression that Disney "seeks to honour" anything, not with Muppets, not with anything they sink their teeth in. What the actual... No. Just no. Yes, they have the right to turn Kermit hot pink, and they would totally do it in a SECOND if they thought it would bring more cash. Seek to honour, PFFFF.
Spot on! Yes, it is true Disney can make Kermit hot pink if they want. I, as one particular consumer and Muppet fan, would not like that one bit. I have nothing against the color pink. I just hate it on cars and frogs. I would not lay down one penny to see a pink Kermit. Disney can go stuff it!
fax
Disney does not even honor Walt Disney's vision - why would they honor anything moral, good, nor wholesome? Disney today is woke, gay, & racist!
I think it’s pretty clear that Steve was in the right here, Jim Henson productions always felt more friendly and warm, like homemade food vs Disney that felt like store bought. Like yeah it’s more consistent but it also loses that warm feeling. I’m sure Steve didn’t like having the company be bought out for those reasons but it was better then not having Jim Henson stuff at all. Still I think I’d be hard to see something you love and put so much care, time, and effort into only to see someone suck the life out of it.
And to be clear I’m pretty pissed about how this video sided with Disney over Steve.
that homemade food analogy is honestly the perfect way to talk about it
I didn't watch the latest show, I think I saw a little and decided everybody was just unnecessarily mean to each other. Nothing like the barely-controlled but basically loving chaos of the original Muppet Show. The last Muppets production I liked was Muppets Most Wanted. I just can't watch anything withe the new Kermit, he's literally being played by the evil Kermit. His expressions are just not it, the voice is still not Kermit. And last I saw a Muppets music video, they had even forgotten how to sing well. Oh well.
Here ! here !
Jim sold the company while he was alive. Saw that in the recent family supported documentary. He wanted to try new things and loved Disney.
Yeah, I'm with Steve on this one. Disney does NOT know what they're doing with this franchise. Asides from some funny RUclips videos, one great movie, and a truly fun Halloween special, everything related to the Muppets to come out of Disney has been annoyingly disappointing. That ABC Show in particular was pure garbage and that new series on Disney+ isn't much better. The fact that they keep ignoring Frank Oz's phone calls don't help. It always feels like Disney is treating this franchise like the odd duck because it's not making as much money as Star Wars or Marvel, which is really their fault in the first place.
Muppet Christmas Carol and Treasure Island were both Disney films. I would hardly call either of them disappointing. Heck Christmas Carol is one of the best Muppet films.
Yeah. I love this channel, but I swear I double-checked to see if this was a sponsored video. Listen, I support a long-running franchise like The Muppets making bold moves. But when that bold move turns out to be a terrible idea, I still give props for the effort, but you also have to acknowledge that it was a terrible idea. And in this case, clearly, Steve was right. It's not just a matter of him identifying too much with his character. He saw the project on which he'd been working for decades heading for the ditch and warned and when no one paid attention, got louder, and when they were still careening, he yelled...and they went into the ditch anyway. And then he's the one who gets blamed?
I agree
Disney: It’s -not- always about the money Spider-Man
@@HaddaClu The Muppets weren't purchased by Disney until 2004
I think I trust steve whitmeyer over Disney.
Facts
I’d trust nearly everything over Disney
Me too. And I don't believe those claims that Disney made about him.
@@OccupiedMuffins Agreed, if they buy a studio they just turn whatever franchise into bullcrap and animate it horribly. I’m pretty sure they bought blue sky studios and then shut them down and now Disney wants to make a Rio 3 which I know won’t be good. They honestly aren’t as good at they seem / described.
Just because Steve fought to preserve the essence of what the Muppets were, doesn’t make him wrong.
I get it, Disney owns the Muppets now. They’re the new boss, but that doesn’t make them right.
Especially not when you have someone who has literally been doing the character for almost 30 years trying to tell you that your direction is bad for the IP you want to make money on.....Im sure its also why they keep ignoring Frank Oz
Disney Need To Be Great full
They ruin everything they buy
@@BCGraphixArt they didn’t ruin “Nightmare Before Christmas”
@@mcuunofficial7499 truuue
Who knows the character better? Someone who played a character for 30 years or a corporation that bought the rights?
There's a lot of time in this video dedicated to justifying the corporation rather than artistic integrity. A publicly traded company does not care about "honor." Come on man. It's there for money and canned the muppets when they didn't make the money disney wanted.
The fact that even someone called OptimisticAudience calls out your bullshit take for defending the heartless corporation should be a good indicator that you had an awful take.
Seriously, I think you forgot the obligatory "This video is sponsored by our overlords at Disney: all hail their genius!" Does Disney have the right to do what they want with the Muppets? Yep. But as Ian Malcolm said, they were so busy thinking they could that they never stopped to think if they SHOULD! Given where the Muppets are today, Steve Whitmire looks like the smarter one in this room!
Seriously. I'm mad at the hours and hours I've wasted watching and supporting this disney shill's content
Whitmire wanted what’s best for the muppets, Disney wants what’s best for their bank account, artistic integrity be damned. “Honor the character”? Laughable.
Or virtue signal
I'm wondering if Disney owns the channel or something
The fact that that show died after a single season shows that Disney wasn't even looking out for their bank account. They were just blindly chasing a trend in the hope it would magically make money rain from the sky. From a mile a way it's clear the whole thought process that went into that show was "The Office is very popular and makes truckloads of money. Let's make The Office for kids!!!" It's the sort of idea that could only come out of a corporate committee.
This video feels oddly critical of Steve and unnecessarily supportive of Disney. Considering what Disney did to Star Wars, this seems textbook for them, see Mark Hamill interview. Yes, it is now Disney's toys, no one disputes that, but these icons belong to more to just a company. When you disrespect it, you are going to hear it from those close to it. I also don't understand the idea presented here that they had to change or die. Muppets had big success and that TV show was not one of them.They would have been fine if left to do their thing. Not everything is Marvel.
When I was a kid, I never understood why so many people hated Disney or called it an evil empire. But now I understand.
To be fair, while the DIsney of my youth was still a oversized greedy corporation responsible for much much harm, they weren't quite the artistically-devoid mega-monopoly they are now. They used to regard their creatives (animators, writers, directors, musicians etc.) with much more reverence establishing longer relationships with them and listening to their pitches. Now they assemble movies from the top down as though executives are creative people and they grab whatever they think will work right now and force the artists to work within their uninspired vision. When it inevitably goes poorly, they throw the artist under the bus, insult them and move on to a new already established property to ruin in the same manner. So yeah, always large and insidious, but never this powerful and unabashedly cruel.
I think the fact that the show got cancelled after 1 season shows who was right in the end.
I think the flagrant mismanagement Disney has made with all their other recent acquirements also solidifies his point for sure.
I think it was bad in general though.
Disney does not understand muppets. They dont understand star wars. They dont understand Disney
Disney ruins everything it touches these days...
It's not even a question; Steve was 100% right here and Disney might've ruined what was probably their best chance at keeping the Muppets alive.
i’m kind of surprised at the tone of this video, especially directly calling steve entitled. first time i’ve been like, ??? at one of nerdstalgic’s opinions.
Op is giving Disney way too much credit. They don't care about the integrity of the characters. The ABC series was garbage and the Haunted Mansion special was mediocre. Yes Disney owns them and they can do what they want, but it's disrespectful for them to disregard the spirit of the Muppet characters. They don't know what to do with the property, and they were too proud to take the suggestions of a man who knows the Muppets better than they do. Whitmire has every right to try to protect the characters, he was literally hand picked by the Hensons and worked along side the creator of the Muppets.
The Hensons regret not firing him earlier though, so that doesn't really stand anymore.
@@Haaris.Qureshi and i call bs on that
An interesting thing to note is Frank Oz's recent interview where he mentions Disney wouldn't want him back to do the Muppets again, citing a lot of reasons that line up with what Whitemire claimed. It's also interesting to note that all of the Muppet performers are still friends with Steve (they've done podcasts together) and Brian Henson spoke fondly of Steve last year. I'm in the camp that Disney didn't like Steve speaking up against their demands and fired him for speaking out. Steve probably could've handled things better, but I believe he was still in the right- what makes the Muppets the Muppets are the performers. They're the characters, they know how they act and speak and feel. Disney's scriptwriters do not, and if you take the control away from the Muppet performers, then the characters lose their soul and lose who they are.
Can you link me to Brian's comments or those podcasts with Steve and other performers? I'd love to hear them
I’ll always side with Steve on this issue. Frank only backs up what Steve was talking about
I would also like a link or a source for Brian’s comments about Steve! (I’d also love to know what podcasts you’re talking about! 😊)
@@booberfraggle See my comment above! The sources I gave P.E. Miranda are the same ones you're asking for.
@@charliemacsart I don’t see another previous comment from you other than the original. Maybe it isn’t showing up for some reason..?
As much as I understand where you’re coming from, the problem is that Disney doesn’t really know what to do with The Muppets. They have tried so much but it always ends up biting them back. It’s hard for them when it took them years to get some semblance. Cause not only is this coming from Steve Whitmere but look at Frank Oz and his takes on how The Muppets and Sesame Street are being handled. He doesn’t think either property, in their new parent owners, understands what makes each their own and what made their formulas work. Disney has had a roller coaster of trouble dealing with how to use the Muppets that they’re more a side thought versus a main enjoyment. And the way Bob Chapek is running Disney, he probably thinks the same too since he’s more corporate than creative.
Then again, most of this was done under the watch of Bob Iger.
Man, watching this actually made me realize just how right Steve Whitmire actually was for everything he attempted to do. Even as someone who really enjoyed the Office-styled Muppet reboot, I can fully agree that it was so far removed from who these characters are that it felt like a push in the wrong direction. It's like Disney truly doesn't understand what made the Muppets so beloved. Then they replaced Kermit's voice with an actor who, and I mean no disrespect to him as a person, sounds absolutely nothing like him in any capacity whatsoever. It went even further when they decided to do some random, internet-based Disney+ exclusive that, once again, failed to capture the heart of what they're all about and Matt Vogel still hasn't gotten even the slightest bit better as Kermit.
This whole thing's been a huge mess, and all because Disney didn't have the respect for the actor that knew the characters best. I just hope they can bounce back eventually. The Muppets deserve way better.
Disney doing what they do best--meddling with and ruining beloved franchises. Steve has been there and knew Jim Henson personally. I am pretty sure he knows more about the Muppets than the Disney corporation. They just wanted to plug the Muppets into a new "trendy" role that didn't nessecarily fit with the Muppets, but was micromanaged to appeal to the most people and make that money. Well....we know how well that approach worked with that bizarre ABC show. it sucked and Steve knew it. He got fired for saying what most Muppets fans probably wanted to say. So, kudos to Steve for staying real! Disney sucks now
They pulled a “....and just like that”
Having watched every episode of The Muppets through to cancellation...
Whitmire was probably right. They had no understanding of Kermit or Piggy and it took a complete course change in season two that was way too little and far too late.
They also fell into the same trap as later seasons of The Office with trying to create villains out of characters that didn't need to be villainous to create conflict.
Was this video sponsored by Disney ? The script is very anti-Steve Whitmire.
Agreed, I was surprised when Nerdstalgic started slamming Steve at the end. It felt more one-sided rather than a neutral observation.
@@gomichow I stopped watching, this was such a pro-coproration / anti-artist stance he took here very sad
Exactly my thoughts
This video is so defensive toward Disney that it seems like it was sponsored or someone is sucking up so that they could get work there. Just because a company owns a property does not mean they know what is good for it. Bethesda owned Fallout and made a mediocre RPG in 4 and an awful one in 76. Disney themselves owned Star Wars and massively botched their shitty sequel trilogy.
I'm more inclined to trust an artist and actor on their creative vision and understanding of a character, rather than a big faceless corporate entity that is out of touch with their properties and only sees them as dollar signs. I would say that the company didn't "honor" the legacy of Kermit considering how poorly that show turned out. They don't care about legacy unless it brings in dollars.
This chastising Whitmire in this video sounds so self-assured and smug too. One of the worst videos you put out.
The self assurance and smugness makes him sound like a stuck up know it all
I really have to agree with all the other comments defending Whitmire's point of view here and it really saddens me that RUclips removed/hid the dislike button because this feels like an opportunity where seeing the dislike count would make it clear to you and people watching that this video's opinion didn't seem to strike a cord with your general audience
its at like 1.7k to 300 rn
dont worry he sees the numbers
@@themiddleman5763 Oh okay thank you for the info!
@@themiddleman5763 Is there a third party website or tool we can use to see the ratio again ourselves? Like a reddit viewer for RUclips?
@@outlawscar3328 No. There's a tool called return youtube dislike but it's also worth mentioning return yt dislike doesnt actually show the real number, only a number gussed by an algorithm based on previous uploads and categories. It's currently under development to improve this though
Do not mean this to be antagonistic in anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts on the issue. I'm inclined to side with Steve Whitmire on this one.
Considering none of us truly know what went on behind the scenes (besides those directly involved), and can only speculate, when I look at Disney's history of firing artists who don't conform to their "vision" (Edgar Wright, Scott Derrickson, Phil Lord and Chris Miller, Gareth Edwards, potentially Colin Trevorrow and debatably Rian Johnson depending on if he ever makes that trilogy that was announced) and considering their output has pretty much consisted of remakes of their IP's or dull marvel films, I don't think they have the creative integrity of their franchises in mind. Disney is a massive corporation who only care about their profits. While legally they do own the Muppets and can do what ever they want with them, I don't think that equates to them knowing/doing what is best for them. Maybe letting the team who have been with the characters for as long as they have and have seen what audiences respond too, wouldn't be such a bad thing.
Given the history of the two sides, unless proven otherwise, I will side with the artist over the corporation.
Yeah it’s really weird that most of if not the latter half entirely of this video sounds like they were personally paid by Disney directly to write a hippie some light Disney and companies like it are allowed to do whatever they want with characters and performers, and that anyone who has anything contrary to say about it no matter how long your experience with the property or the character is some sort of entitled brat for speaking up
I think you make a lot of really good points. I think one major thing that Disney is forgetting is that these characters found there way into the hearts and minds of two generations. They did this by creating characters that many different personalities could relate to. In an effort to ensure that the new generation latches onto these characters they so often attempt to change them to adapt to the world instead of attempting to change the world to try and adapt to them. This can be a very difficult model to sell.
@@Closer2Zero They are, unfortunately, but then again we as the fans are able to withhold our money to show our disapproval.
Me too
Not to mention that Disney basically did the same thing to Frank Oz, but in a much quieter way. I will always side with Steve and Frank over this.
I'm with Steve. He knew Jim, he voiced Kermit with heart.
It's horrifying what franchises go through when their creators die. Traded and abused like smug hohos.
5:38 He's right, he _does_ know the Muppets better than the owner of the Muppets, the owner being Disney who just bought them decades after they existed and after Steve had been doing them. Just because Disney keeps buying different properties, doesn't mean they know those properties at all, let alone how best to handle them. Just look at how Disney has run so many other properties into the ground. 🙄 I'm sick of the "it's 's they can do what they want with it" trope. Just because you own something doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with it; you may be _allowed_ and _able_ to do whatever you want with it, but that doesn't make it _right_ (e.g. those jerks who get stuff on the first day a product is available, then smash it in the parking lot in front of all the people who camped out in the street for a week in hopes of getting one 😠).
It's really funny how you're framing this as "well, while Steve knew the character and was the character for 27 years and understands the character on a deep level, he didn't own Kermit so his opinion is moot" More weird Disney apologia, Steve was 100% correct about that AWFUL reboot.
Nice work putting this together! You guys used a clip from our podcast "Puppet Tears" interview with Matt V. Thank you for not cropping out the logo! Hopefully our interviews with Matt and Steve were some help! Cheers to Puppeteers!
Ooooh [subscribe]
@@hhhieronymusbotch thanks for your support!
Eh I feel like the people that actually know the character does know better than some shitty corporate overlord who threw money at it and "owns" it
Corporate ownership ruins creativity
Think you dropped the ball on this one dude. Disney does not seek to "honour" anything they get their claws on.
Disney is like Al from Al’s Toy Barn in Toy Story 2. They want to make money by polishing the item and displaying it’s lifeless corpse to be “loved for generations”. Sometimes they do worse and try to update it or fix it, sometimes they do better and extend its life. It depends on the individuals who get involved, not all of whom are bad.
Cause he moved on to play quarterback! For the Kansas City Chiefs!
Ha haaaa!!!;
That’s outta pocket
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I say it every time he does a post game 😂
I heard he's a ketchup spokesfrog now. Doing fairly well.
Yeah why does this video kinda side with Disney lmaooo I personally don’t think Steve was being entitled at all. I think Disney was trying to make him look bad because they were making soulless money grabbing decisions probably and Steve loved Kermit and wouldn’t stand for it.
Well, you've definitely made me sympathize with Whitmire on the topic... which doesn't seem to have been the purpose of this video. Soooooo... yeah.
Wow…who ever wrote the script for this one definitely took a side and didn’t hide it lol
Not only that, they took the *wrong* side.
The reason why this has more dislikes than the other videos nerstalgic puts out, is that this comes across as very opinionated, and as a result, comes from assumptions that are not known. It is spoken as if Disney was benevolent, and they knew what was best, had the best intent. This is not a given. Disney's intent is ambiguous, to say the least, it has had scandals in the past, and this assumption of Disney's judgement, is obviously over Steve's, is just not a given.
edit: After thinking it over. I'm really getting a dishonest vibe from this video. Almost like Disney paid them to make it. I really hope we're not seeing the decline of nerdstalgic with this one.
That's exactly what I felt, it's really weird the way they defended Disney, proclaiming they tried to be bold whilst respecting legacy, when everyone can see clear as day they only care about milking an intellectual property.
And it really bothers me the fact that it seems they're siding with the multimillion company with monopolistic practices and not with the actor that has given most of his professional life to a character, trying to protect the legacy of someone very close to him.
Watched 1 video for the 1st time and thought about subscribing. Watched this one next. Nah.
@@nemo7542who If I had that same introduction, I would come to the same conclusion. It's unfortunate because all the other ones I saw had been good. Even their most recent one on Johnny Bravo was good. They really should address, or amend this, otherwise I'll worry that it'll happen again. Just goes to show how fragile credibility can be.
@@callmeLilSparky trust is hard to gain, easy to lose abd even harder to gain back if ever
I’m with Steve. I saw the series. The performers needed to be listened to like we need blood in our veins.
I think he is in the right. I get that they own the character, and can ultimately do what they’re want, but he was right. The characters were going in a bad direction, and people didn’t like it. If Disney would have listened then the show would probably have been better. I really don’t like how much butt kissing for Disney you are doing here. They are a corporation who doesn’t care about these characters.
Legally own...which is only a geographical idea..
We all know who was right here...
So I wasn't the only one weirded out by this video? Thanks God. Anyone with half a brain cell can see what Disney's done to destroy some of the best production company's. Everytime they buy a studio that studio's quality drops. Pixar, Ghibli and yes the muppets.
yeah, the writing in this one seems to be very Disney friendly and negative toward Steve.
Honestly pathetic that anybody would actually care about honoring anything to do with the corporate side of Disney..
Aside from the weird siding-with-Disney vibe of this, there's a surprising amount of factual errors... The Muppet Show didn't start in 74, it started in 76. In the middle of a montage of clips of Steve and Kermit, there's a shot of Constantine (his green mole is visible, and the facial expression is very much not Kermit). The repeated referring to the performers as "the voices of" instead of, you know, performers who physically act, not just doing voices. And then the weird avoidance of the vast majority of the performers roles? Like, Steve is just "the voice of Rizzo" before Kermit, not "the performer of many characters, including Rizzo"? Steve was part of the group during the Muppet Show, Rizzo came in later as his first named major character, and he did plenty of other characters before Jim died (most notably Lips and Bean Bunny); Reportedly, Jim had already picked him out as a possible replacement, so it was his decision as well as his family's. Matt Vogel similarly had done many many minor characters and other roles before being picked to replace Caroll Spinney and Jerry Nelson (and, eventually, Steve), most notably the aforementioned Constantine. And I don't think ANY Muppet performer had been fired for being 'unprofessional' or whatever before Steve; Before Disney, as far as I'm aware, performers who suddenly disappeared had moved on or just weren't available, whether by death or not. Off the top of my head, Louise Gold is only available in the UK as she is based there, Frank Oz left by choice to become a director, Jim and Richard Hunt and Caroll Spinney all died, Jerry Nelson was semi-forced into retirement from failing health but showed up to live-voice the Count while Matt did the physical performing... This whole video feels disrespectful, more than anything else.
The more I think about it, the more this feels like a subtle attempt at character assassination.
Omg this video symptizing with Disney over an artist who seems to actually care about their craft 😭😂
The first 30 seconds are way off. The before clip is Jim Henson as Kermit and the after is Steve Whitmire as Kermit doing a worse than usual performance.
Personally I don’t think all characters should change with the times. Sure they can be occasionally reimagined but not in a way that destroys the original personality. Characters are iconic for a reason, we remember Batman and Superman because of there personality’s and beliefs. When a movie or show doesn’t align a character with either it’s really easy to tell. Especially when a movie is trying to change the tone to be more mature.
Jim handpicked Steve and Henson had everyone who plays their characters to be the characters, and they are. This is why there is nearly ever any member quitting and integrity to the characters are only what the OGs look for, because it's what they love. They have fun with their characters and taking that away from them is like taking a big bite away from their lives.
This video has an uncomfortable tone of "actors should keep their thoughts to themselves and read what's on the script", which is disappointing to say the least.
That said, I also found it a little telling that, back when this story broke, none of Whitmire's castmates spoke up in his defense. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that they agreed with Disney's decision or had problems with Whitmire, and maybe they just needed to hold onto their jobs. But hearing from the people who worked with him on a daily basis would have been more helpful in seeing the big picture.
You know I actually think you’re quite right and coming from the point of view that this channel is run at least in part by someone who hopes to be themselves a movie producer and script writer, I can see where that attitude could come from.
I also found it weird how no other performer talked up, but it makes sense or else they'd go on a kill streak. Steve also when commenting on his relationship with other performers around that time, he also respects that they really should keep their jobs.
Disney basically did the same thing to Frank Oz, but in a much quieter way. His other performers don’t have much room to speak up; Steve spoke his mind and was fired- common sense would prevent them from saying much either.
Well....he wasn't wrong!
Did this sound a little Disney propaganda-y to anyone else? Or just me? 🤷♀️
No it definitely is haha. The video is presented as if it's on Disney's side, for some weird reason, instead of looking at the situation objectively
I think The Muppets would be a way better entity right now, if Steve was the owner. Disney can be a consultant.
7:44 "they are doing their best to honor the character"
Big reach. Disney is for-profit, and wants the bottom line.
Next are you gonna tell me that even though Dave Goelz built the first Zoot puppet for the Muppet Show pilots and has been the sole performer of him for 47 years that he doesn't understand his character as well as Disney does? Will you say that Bill Barretta, who literally based Pepe on his aunt, doesn't understand Pepe as well as Disney does?
Dave Goelz: "I miss the sense of play that you get from a company that's owned by a person"
All of these performers are on record MULTIPLE times saying that when you do a character you put yourself into it. Jim Henson would let the performers put in advice for how their characters work, and Jerry Juhl (the head writer of the Muppets before his death) was friends with the performers. David Rudman (current Cookie Monster and Scooter) has his own company on the side that he runs similar to how he experienced the Muppets under Jim, and everyone who works on Spiffy Pictures absolutely loves it and has the time of their lives.
Yeah, but the fact is, he was right.
For a second I thought this was going to be an eight second video where you just say that Jim Henson died and could not voice him anymore. Didn't even realize Steve got fired.
I think this is a miss, buddy.
Its perfectly okay to criticize Whitmore and see what he may have done wrong on the issue.
However, to then go ahead and avoid critisizing Disney, one of the most exploitative media companies in the world, and argue that Legality equals Morality is a big miss.
"They own him now so they can do anything they want". On one hand thats entirely true, on the other hand Disney takes part in alot of deeply immoral practices, because hey, they aint illegal.
Agreed. I just found Nerdstalgic today. I was liking the first 2 videos I watched, but then I got to this one. A total miss! They almost had a new subscriber.
I don't really feel like Disney wants to honor anyone's legacy. They just want a profit, and keeping Hansen's family supposedly as experts is one of ways to keep a good face
The also kept George Lucas for the sequels, and look how they massacred his boy.
@@ImElMounstro George Lucas giving Disney the rights to star wars is like selling anakin back to slavery
They barely honor Walt Disney's legacy if at all.
The first two sentences are both wrong. The first clip is of Jim Henson who played Kermit for 35 years. The second clip is of Steve Whitmire, who was fired in 2016. Also the Henson family did not fire him, they merely said they supported Disney’s decision. Hopefully the rest of the video is more factually accurate.
Nope
Also, the muppet show came out in 1976 not 1974. Like did he even do any research 🙄
Honestly so baffling, I had to rewind to see if I misheard something in the narration but nope. Such a glaring error, doubt there’s much point watching the rest of the video to be honest.
I was gonna say… It’s pretty obviously Jim and Steve, especially since the first clip is The Muppet Show and Jim was very much alive for all of that. Also they sound fairly similar but Matt sounds suuuuper different
wish you didn't side with Disney 100% by the end
"Disney truly seek to honor Kermit"
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA what a bunch of bullshit. They only honor their bottomline and taking the "It's the audience fault for not accepting change" approach is nothing short of manipulative.
Didn’t shoot himself in the foot. From all indications, he was right. The show got canceled, & his statement was humble, professional, but most importantly, accurate.
I would really love to see @Nerdstalgic make a follow up response to some of these comments because I agree with everyone here 100% it's rare that I come away from one of these videos feeling like the critique was heavily biased in favor of a massive company and the video does not go into any details of Disney's history with mistreating talent, acquiring properties and then mishandling their stories and overall being a strict and unbending tyrant. I was honestly deeply disappointed in the tone of this video and I regret that RUclips has turned off dislikes so that everyone can really see the response.
I think the attachment that these performers have with the characters may bring life and nuance to the characters rather than just making them stock characters. After 30 years of playing a character there is some depth that is going to come naturally and will be more profound than just, "do Ernie's voice but a little more frazzled"
I’m not unfollowing because of this, but I wouldn’t be surprised if others did. This was just a bad video in general.
Steve would obviously have more knowledge of the character than Disney. Disney is just a corporation that meddles in their artists’ affairs for money.
'Disney could turn Kermit pink, but they won't, because they are great. Steve had a weird relationship with his character and got too close that's wrong, even though he played him for 30 years'
Lmfao exactly, this video is awful
Why do you sound like you're on the mouse's side?
Feeling bad for Mickey right now. It's not _his_ fault that Disney's like this. He's just a scapegoat!
Just because Disney owns something doesn’t mean they know what’s best, look at the Mulan remake; that was the worst remake I have ever seen, probably the worst movie I’ve seen.
I think the narrator is wrong on this one. Steve was 100% in the right here, it doesn’t matter who owns it, Steve knew what Henson would have wanted.
Leaving behind a character with a beautiful legacy is FAR greater than swapping and changing with the times desperate to remain relevant or try new things.
Steve was right as proven by the cancellation. If Disney want to do new things introduce a new character or make a new show? It would cost pennies to them.
I don’t think Steve was in the wrong on this
I still think Disney doesn’t give a single care about the Muppets, and only allows it to come back if it’s used to attain more money. And for that reason only.
You said hot pink....but that was purple.
The only reason why The Muppets aren't Jim Henson's creator anymore is because he frickin kicked the bucket yo
Do you think the big cheese would like it if his life's work, work about teaching morals and self acceptance, was turned into a C-list romcom?
First off, the start of the video is wrong. It played Jim Henson's Kermit as if it were Steve's, and then played Steve's Kermit saying "this is how he sounds now" as if it were Matt Vogel.
Second, the fact that Disney, Sesame Workshop, and The Jim Henson Company have all chosen not to work with Steve Whitmire should say something. They brought back Fraggle Rock and chose not to work with Steve even though he was one of the original cast members.
Third, Matt Vogel does not perform Snuffelupagus and Jerry stopped performing him decades ago.
I agree with Steve. He was literally hand chosen by Jim Henson's family to portray the character, and when you do that for almost 3 decades, you are undoubtedly going to see the character in a specific way. He wasn't trying to make it to where Kermit wasn't evolving with the times, he was simply trying to keep Jim's most iconic muppet the way that it was.
This video.. wth is this nerdstalgic.
I dont think he was claiming ownership, he was claiming a real understanding of a character. And you can HARDLY deny him that. Its like an artist being passionate about his art. Because at the end of the day, he WAS kermit the frog. If Disney decides the will abandon that character, thats their right. But that doesnt make it right.
If Disney owns an IP, it doesnt necessarily mean they will always be able to choose whats best for an IP.
Praise corporate!
Anyone else notice the irony in that in the 2011 "the Muppets", the villian wanted to replace the muppets with something darker and edgier. Disney actually did that and it failed miserably. You can update something without losing what made the thing special to begin with. Steve was right, and your conclusion makes little sense. The massive failure of the show is proof.
Disney destroying The Muppets much like they have with Star Wars and the MCU.
They destroyed SW no doubt in that. But they saved Marvel, they made it childish but commercialy good.
@@gurentgc3546 Not lately. The only thing that has come out of Marvel recently that was any good was Spider-Man. Everything else has failed since Endgame.
@@johnchafin3817 now it's failing but the influx of money and better cast was thanks to the mouse.
Acually it's intresting to note that if you play some characters for years, YOU will become them. It's kinda understudied subject in psychology, but some people can develop second personality for character if they play him for a long time.
The most known story about it is story of Noel Blanc story about "how his father was saved by Bugs Bunny" when he landed in coma after car accident. As it's know best cure for coma is talking to a person so he/she will wake up. However one of doctors "called" Bugs Bunny. And Mel responded with faint "What's up doc, i can hear ya", like Bugs would respond. After some trying finally Bugs Bunny "woke up" Blanc from a coma.
So if i have to trust someone knows Kermit more that anyone. It's the guy who voiced him.
Turning a show meant to teach kids about loving their differences and cherishing your community into some poorly written adult comedy would drive anyone mad.
I found out about the muppets adult comedy special after watching the 2011 movie, and boy was I disappointed with the lack of in-character moments and depth.
Calling it a new direction would be an understatement, and saying disney in any way wants to "Honor the character" is just corporate speak of "maintaining the brand".
Muppets was always an adult comedy. Sesame Street is the one that teaches kids.
@@Kibaoftheleaves It's not. The humor is very slapstick (Like Crazy Harry's explosions or Ms. Piggy's karate chop) and each episode of the first season or so always has a "Here's a little advice to think about' moment from the celebrity guest to a depressed muppet.
The only adult aspect of it I'd argue is the social commentary, which never goes anything beyond "Wow polticians suck" or the songs sang about unrequited love.
You only think the original muppet show is adult because sesame street is for 4 year olds and people sitting next to 4 year olds.
It's in no way for mature audiences, which would explain why people go to the show to relive the simplicity of the 90s.
@@themiddleman5763 Ah.. no, the show was geared towards adults. Jim Henson said many times that he specifically did NOT want The Muppet Show (or puppetry in general) to be seen as children’s media. That’s why the Muppet Show pilot was entitled “Sex and Violence”- he wanted to make it known that it wasn’t a children’s show. It has always been for adults, but family friendly enough for a kid to enjoy without picking up on some of the dirtier jokes. Besides, the idea that children are the only ones who need to consider morality isn’t really true; adults need that self-check just as much as kids do, and that’s something that Henson accomplished.
7:39 “Disney” and “honor the character” in the same sentence 😂 😂
The character might be completely different but hey he's not pink so respect
I mean you play a character for almost 30 years, and was chosen to do the character by the creator, that to me 100% says he knows what he's talking about, yeah voice actors and puppeteers don't have the power to say what goes for their character but they should, it really pisses me off how little the people who spend years with a character get a say on said character, shouldn't be acceptable
It ain't easy being green....
This is...odd. At first it seems like the goal is to present a thoughtful analysis of Steve Whitmire's firing from Disney/Muppets that takes a fair look at both sides. And for a lot of it, you seem to be doing a decent credible job. But from the beginning, your credibility gets a little undercut by the numerous incorrect facts that appear throughout (and misidentifying a voice in your intro when that's a large part of the subject matter does not help starting things off that strongly). A common mistake people make when writing about Muppet performers is referring to them as "voice artists" when they in fact are also the ones physically operating the puppets. You do point this out...but then fall back into the trap of treating them like voice talent only. But things really fall apart near the end as it seems like it's taking on an overall Disney apologist, anti-Steve tone using some really bizarre out there arguments to defend Disney's side and what seemed like it was first going to be pretty balanced ended up more like the Fox News version of "fair and balanced". One thing that really impressed me at first was that you seemed to be the very first piece on the subject that went into more detail as to the nature of what the contract dispute was about. So it seems like you had an inside source helping with this...but then given how it ended combined with the various errata in the facts, it appears that source must be someone from Disney contracting you to write a hit piece on Steve. I found this intriguing enough to check out what your other videos discussing The Muppets were like...and there weren't any others. This had a lot of potential to impress me and follow your channel but it had the opposite effect.
“he thinks he knows more than the owners” because he does. he had worked with jim for 12 years and saw how he performed kermit, then took the mantle in 1990 and performed kermit for almost 30 years. just because disney owns the muppets doesnt mean they know the most
Hold on... there's a glaring error here that should be addressed: The first line is "This is what Kermit sounded like for 27 years"... and the clear inference is that you are saying it's Steve Whitmire, as he's the focus of the video. (Who was let go after "27 years") But those were of JIM HENSON! Not Whitmire. You only had 2 short lines with Whitmire as Kermit. Which seems odd for a video about Steve Whitmire as Kermit.
Would nerdstalgic say the same thing about Jim Henson if he were fired from the Muppets by Disney? This is a SHIT take
Steve wanted what was best for the franchise. I stand behind him all the way. They have no clue with what to do with the muppets and it is honestly heartbreaking. They have so much potential and it’s ridiculous how they are flushing everything that Jim Henson would have wanted down the drain.
Steve was right
I feel like a lot of Disney's problems with the Muppets stem from the current management in some parts. They were purchased in 2004 during Micheal Eisner's reign around the time they were juggling their talent around to different studios for their movies and tv specials. Before that, Muppet's Christmas Carol and Treasure Island were distributed by Disney and I feel their quality remained fairly consistent overall at that time, though the franchise was still struggling for direction with Jim Henson's death. It's been said though that after Bob Iger took over a year later, any enthusiasm Eisner had for purchasing them took a back seat since it was purchased under his leadership and not Bob's. I still have a bit of hope for the franchise's future with recent management changes at The Muppet Studios and recent collaboration with Disney Parks and Immagneer.
I'm glad to see this episode. After watching the recent Muppet haunted mansion special, my biggest take away was that Kermit sounded off. His deeper tone and way of speaking just didn't sound quite right.
We said the same thing about Whitmire back in the day. Vogel will find the character.
@@TheChancellor212 it's been 5 years lol how much longer does he need to "find" the character
@@inyrui It's not like The Muppets have done much in the last five years
It simply isn't Kermit.
It says a lot that the show that he was fired for criticizing against was not like the muppets. He seems to know what the muppets is, and when telling them that the ABC show was not like the muppets he was fired. I miss Steve Whitmire
I can’t believe that Kermit the frog fired his voice I want them to make back the muppets back
The voice and puppeteering were him. In a way, he is Kermit the Frog.
The issue is there's a double whammy at play here. Sure, an actor, to an extent, gets direction from the Director and screenwriters, but there's a reason the studio hired that actor. But Steve not only has to deal with direction and possible creative differences for the acting, but also the personality of Kermit himself. Disney wants Kermit to be a certain way, but the problem is that Kermit isn't just a character they bought the rights to, Kermit *is* Steve. It would be one thing if Kermit was somehow a living breathing frog in some alternate universe where puppets are alive, and you asked Kermit to play a role a certain way, but it's a total other thing to ask Kermit's literal soul and personality *_off the clock_* to be a different person *and* act different. *_ESPECIALLY_* if the show in question is a pseudo reality show like The Office.
It's no wonder it didn't work.
Ok, but “The Muppets” series on ABC is honestly one of my favorite shows.
You know nobody asked what Kermit wanted
Disney continually buys up franchises and then tries to take them in new directions that conflict with the existing characterizations and storylines, resulting in a hot pile of garbage. Any franchise picked up by Disney is not worth following any longer.