Which Nation has their Rugby Organised BEST?? (and which are a TOTAL MESS?!)
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- Опубликовано: 29 июл 2024
- There is SO much talk of financial strife in rugby - clubs going bust, Unions and players fighting, strike threats and the like - what IS going on?! I attempt take you around the World and look at the different ways countries have their domestic and national rugby teams setup. What can we learn? What works best? Which are making the biggest hash of it?
00:00 Intro
00:32 Ireland
03:30 Wales
06:14 New Zealand
08:09 Australia
09:22 Scotland
11:05 South Africa
12:57 England
14:41 France
17:20 USA
18:57 Summary - Good and Bad 
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Ulster represent the entire province. This includes the 6 counties that make up northern Ireland. And 3 ulster counties that are in the Republic. NI is part of Ulster, not the other way around.
Thanks Barry...much appreciated. Hopefully the principle and thrust was on the money, if not the fine detail.
Aye, just a small geography note as NI and Ulster sometimes get mistaken for the same area. These mid week and post match vids are great stuff Tim.
Tommy Bowe, Ulster, Ireland and B&I Lions player, was born in Monaghan, which is in Ulster but not NI.
@@EggchasersRugby no worries pal, I understood what you were saying..we can be a bit touchy about Ulster as 1 third of it is in the Republic.
Yah I live in Monaghan and you would not believe the amount off ppl in Ireland especially Dublin that I have to explain that Monaghan is in Ulster and the Republic of Ireland not NI, so it happens a lot, it’s an easy mistake
A clarification on the JIFF systems: Foreigners can be JIFF qualified. To be a JIFF you need to either spend at least 3 years in a French academy before turning 18 or be a player-member of the FFR for 5 consecutive seasons before your 23rd birthday.
A major criticism about the JIFF system is that it just means that foreign players are coming over younger and younger so they can hit those three seasons before turning 18.
The IRFU centrally funds some of the top players but not all. Keenan who has more than 25 caps has just been given his first central contract. Recently it is said there are 20 such contracts. Incidentally, Ulster is a province of 9 counties only 6 of which are in Northern Ireland. And the people of Kerry, Cork and Limerick would smile at the idea that Wales has a monopoly of local rivalry. A factor you have omitted from your analysis (and which many would say is as important as any other) is the stream of players produced in Leinster by "private schools". They are well funded and provide superior facilities and coaching. I did a check last year and St Michael's College alone had 10 former pupils in an international match day squad. The administrative/financial/management end of the system is undoubtedly superior to the other "Home Nations" but so is the support.
You missed a LOT with South Africa. One of the reasons we have so much talent on display is because of competitive School Rugby. Once a boy turns 10, he is able to play gor Craven week with the best other players in the country. High schools like Grey College, Affies, Paarl, etc recruite players out of Primary schools to develop their game. After that the best will be selected for Junior Club teams or a University team. Those who don't make it can get into a local team and may get an opportunity at a Junior Club team. Most clubs have between 4 and 6 teams, including a First, Second, and Third string team. A development team that play local clubs, like the Naka Bulle and a Junior team for every age group.
Same sort of thing happens in NZ. The jr rugby and school setups in RSA and NZ are amazing.
You are so right about the school system and it is getting more competitive as the years go by. Just to add on to what you said. Imagine if the exchange rate between the rand and Pond/Euro was half of what it is right now, then so many more players would come back to the country.
Love the Irish system personally. Get to see many more players play with a great deal of passion and often the case that Irish players tend to stay with their provincial clubs due to this passion which I feel makes these teams certainly punch above their weight in Europe and domestically.
Great video as always!
When you say 'passion' you have to also clarify fan passion. One reason the Irish clubs do so well is because they have consistent fan support above and beyond what you see anywhere else if you take this in relation to the population. Wales just do not get the turnout to help fund their clubs.
Your slightly incorrect in saying northern Ireland is Ulster , the Provence of Ulster has three county's that are in fact in the republic of Ireland not all of Ulster is northern Ireland.
Scotland have also done a great job of outsourcing player development to South Africa
😂😂😂
Was that when the 1822 settlers landed?
@@gertvanniekerk46 hee hee love this - not having a go at scotland - Ireland done the exact same as did NZ or Wales or OZ even Eng have plenty of non english born etc
Hi Tim, regarding the JIFF system, it stands for Jeunes Issues de Formation Française, basically young player coming from a French academy. Which as you rightly say, each of the top 14 and pro d2 have to have an academy. In reality all teams in the top 4 divisions have academies, and probably far lower down as well. JIFF players are worth a fortune to clubs for obvious reasons.
Further, rugby isn’t played in schools, because very little sport is played in schools other than gym. Why is this? Because all sports are played through clubs and kids go to those clubs every Wednesday and Saturday. Once they’re past 8 years old, they can also go to the clubs on Friday afternoons, and all the clubs have a bus that goes round the schools to pick the kids up and drop them off. It’s a great system as it doesn’t allow possibly ideological schools to control the exercise children get. Locally all the kids I know change sport most years, including fencing, golf, handball, etc. Most stick to kevball and rugby, but we do push them towards other sports to broaden the horizon.
Concerning the governmental support: almost every stadium is owned by the local authority in France. Maybe La Défense isn’t and perhaps one other, maybe Marcel Michelin. So the clubs don’t have the huge costs involved in building and upkeep. Each club is seen as a source of local pride, thus the fanatical local support. Look on the shirts of all the teams, you’ll always see the town council and the regional council logos on them. It’s a huge partnership, and again a big source of local pride.
For the record I’m a huge Castres supporter, partly because they play for the club, the badge, the town and the supporters. The boys all come and have a beer in the bars after the games and there’s a good old style family atmosphere in the ground. The players are very very accessible, and are constantly visiting sponsors and even businesses which aren’t sponsors, especially if they’re Michel Bras, because who wouldn’t want to visit the restaurant of the worlds best chef? Community is far more here than it is in the uk where there’s a big lump of pure lip service.
Sponsorship: this is one of the great things about regionalism, again it’s all about local pride. Sponsors in France do not give money purely for financial reasons (what do I get out versus what I put in?), there’s a genuine pride in contributing. Plus you get a 100% credit on your taxes for sponsoring. That’ll always help.
Ownership. The uk has a few multi millionaires involved in clubs. France has billionaires, either personal like Altrad and Boujalel and Wilde, or Michelin etc. Intouchable in terms of their financial input. BUT small teams like Castres can still win the top 14 even when they have only have 1/3 the budget of the giants like Toulouse.
Lastly, I will watch a game this evening on Tv (thursday) mont de Marson v Béziers. Tomorrow night I’ll watch any of the other pro d2 games, probably the Nevers game because the owners of the restaurant I’ll be eating in are the cousins of the Nevers captain. then on Saturday I’ll watch the Montpellier game whilst driving to Castres for the game against Lyon. Once I’m home i’ll have my dinner in front of the Toulon v stade F game. To cap off the weekend I’ll have my dinner in front of racing v Toulouse (also known as the “pain au chocolats v les chocolatines”). All on one channel, canal + who pay over 100 million euros each year for those rights, take a look at how much sky/bt sport etc pay for rights in the uk. We get four nights a week live rugby. Some Sundays they show a third division game.
Literal rugby heaven. You should come over for a weekend and go to three live games. It’s tiring but fun, and you get squeeze in a quick session in trevor brennans bar!
What a BRILLIANT message. Thanks for sharing so much information...absolutely fascinating.
I work for BT Sport so the TV deal is something I know all about and I wish they'd replicate in England. It's such long term thinking and means the drop off from Top 14 to Pro D2 isn't nearly as much of a cliff edge as England.
Sounds 100% like rugby heaven!
@@jonnygeorge7325 from the U20 through to being number two in the rankings, I’d say they’re showing they’re up for the final.
Somehow French rugby seems to have structured itself from 2005-ish. Similar to what happened in French football from the 1990s - with some degree of success for the national team but still not enough money for clubs (contrary to rugby).
As you say Ireland had a pre existing national sport model based on the GAA, which was formed to encompass the whole island based on the thousand year old internal territorial division; the four (originally five) provinces. So it was natural for rugby to follow suite despite the later partition of the country. You mistakenly said 'Northern Ireland Ulster' which is two separate things. Ulster is 9 counties, 3 in the Republic and 6 which constitute Northern Ireland. Interesting topic though. Your channel will grow fast if you continue making original content like this. Good work.
Appreciate it. Yep - you're not the first person to correct me on NI being part of Ulster not vice-versa - every day is a school day!
@@EggchasersRugby Really enjoy your content! I was on a plane home from the Italy game and noticed someone else watching one of your videos and ended to chatting to them! Very interesting stuff.
Also yeah the Ulster thing is pointed out and I guess with these RUclips videos no one else reads all the other comments so everyone says the same thing over and over 🤪
A lot of Ireland's current model is almost by accident/luck. Prior to professionalism the 4 provinces had been playing Interprovincial games for 50+ years and were able naturally form teams from that. A lot of the current success has come from private schools developing players to a near professional level - gyms, training 5 days/week, with little funding needed from the IRFU, who then just flow into the academys.
There are still issues with getting rugby into rural and working class communities, there were no Irish born players who on Saturday that didn’t go to private schools, we’re not seeing enough 2nd generation kids from Eastern Europe or African etc like we’re seeing in football or athletics. That suggests we’re not in those type of communities winning hearts and minds
@@briancurtis5796 I believe you may not be quite correct here - Craig Casey went to a non-fee paying school, the fees at Ian Hendersons's school were nominal
Thank you so much for this video. Really important info for rugby fans who want to understand more about what makes nations successful, and funding/structures certainly play an important role. Keep up the excellent work. Only recently came across your channel and have been very impressed with the content so far.
Very Informative ! Thank you.
In France 🇫🇷, one of issues of the system is the length of our championship hence too many games for the players, but lately there were some improvements between the clubs and the FFR.
Agreed. Top 14 is amazing...but a brutal schedule. Glad to hear there may be a bit of balance.
Important to that even prior to the GAA the provinces have long histories stretching back in Irish history. They had their own kings and Queens, fought wars had their own mythologies.
So yeah it was a pretty good trick to consolidate chunks of the island into teams for what was at the time (and still probably is) a less supported sport here.
Gave people something associateable to get behind and didn't dilute the player or support base too much.
Thanks Adrian! Did NOT realise that.
Very enlightened... Keep up the good work 👍👍
Tim, this is an excellent insight and summarisation of the funding models of clubs aligned to national squads in the major rugby nations. Great video - keep up the good work.🏉
Bonus points for pronounce Connacht correctly! Great research and very informative. Subcribed.
This was a very enjoyable video and original too. It isn't the first time I've come across your videos. I've come across a couple in the past week or so. they we're suggested to me on the algorithm. ANYWAYS I just wanted to say, I enjoyed this, and you got a sub. Big up from Dublin.
Excellent and very interesting piece. As an Irish supporter I would also point out the excellent academy system too for each province, but especially the Leinster one. For the last 10-15 years in particular they have been producing a conveyor belt of great talent who are nurtured very carefully on the ladder and train with the senior squads frequently.
South African Schools rugby is HUGE here and very well organised. Part of the reason we have so much talent.
Nice vid thanks for putting this together Tim.
Excellent video again mate, recently became a subscriber and have no regrets! Would be interesting to see a part two to this video, maybe covering South American systems as well as the likes of Italy and Japan? I imagine the research would be a lot tougher but would be very interesting to hear!
Great analysis.. well done.. have subscribed 👌🏽
really informative, thanks for producing this great video!
It’s amazing to see my country Ireland now doing well considering rugby is our 4th most popular sport and a general population of 5/6 million! We punch well above our weight in all areas.
an Irish man called Harry. ok
@John incorrect. 6.5 million
@@laoch5658 ?
@@john-el1ciwith a lower player pool than all of them so it’s invalid
Hey mate. I'm only commenting to say I love your videos and appreciate your work and effort. Big fan here, and I hope you keep it up. You're making great content! Well done 👏
Appreciate you taking the time to say so 👊
@Eggchasers Rugby No bother, mate. I listen to your podcast on flights for work, and I find the RUclips content really enjoyable. Great stuff!
Están estos equipos internacionales y su organización que será mejor o peor pero ahí están y luego nosotros tenemos a España! Con unos jugadores que tienen dos cojones bien puestos pero los de la corbata y sus decisiones de sillón y despacho nos impiden crecer y estar en programas que hablan de rugby internacional y alcanzar otra dimensión.
A ver si para 2027 damos ese pasito a delante...un abrazo a todos los amantes del rugby desde España!
What an informed and intelligent video not surprised this applies to everyone you put out there is never a bias due to counrty as its lovely to hear it outside ones own countries review get a more balanced point of view keep it up
Many thanks Joan.
Fully agree your assessment of the huge advantage the Irish provinces gives the IRFU over parts of the GB. Provinces existed in pre Norman Celtic Ireland and were adopted as a method of subdividing the island by the Norman's and remained in place right up to today.
Parish, county, province then nation !
Joe Mulhall, Where has the IRFU an "advantage over parts of the GB?" Your statement seems unclear.
@C Cahill apologies. Concept of provinces doesn't exist in GB (England Scotland or Wales) to anything like the same extent. Counties are much bigger entities in GB, so big that other than in Cricket counties are not really used for team identification. There are geographical areas such as 'home counties ' or 'west country' or 'North' or 'Midlands' but these are not used for formal teams and certainly don't generate the same following locally that provinces in Ireland would.
Other contributors point out the the 4 provinces of Ireland link back to 4 the gaelic celtic kingdoms that made up Ireland.
Glad I'm subscribed, your very knowledgeable about the game.
Really enjoy your show and keep up the good work. Two points that perhaps you should include when detailing how nations organize (and adapt certain strategies to) their rugby: (1) number of senior players involved (worth noting Ireland is circa 10th in the world, where rugby plays second fiddle to 2x GAA codes and football, and (2) the structure of the URC competition (and it's previous incumbent the Pro14) needs major reviewing - it's not purely the IRFU's central contract system that can keep Sexton wrapped in cotton wool; it's the opposition, depth of talent, and format...
As a American, the one issue MLR has is the foreign player allotment. They do a foreign player cap on your roster, but there are no match day requirements. What we are seeing is lots of young foreign players who might of missed on super rugby or the SA URC franchises coming and starting every match. Also a lot of that salary cap goes to foreign players while a lot of the Americans are on part time contracts and still working non rugby jobs. Another note is we also have a franchise playing in the South America comp and which has gone for a all domestic squad.
Interesting! Really appreciate the information
Drawing on my own experience of playing senior club rugby in ireland as well as what I have seen over the last few years, the Irish system is the best at maximising the limited player numbers and resources available to them (when compared to other sports like GAA and football). The irfu and the 4 provinces are generally all pulling in the same direction so all decisions are made for the greater good (e.g. moving players to different provinces like joey carbery to increase the player pool at international level). The biggest challenge that the irfu and the provinces face is the limited reach of rugby in traditional GAA and football areas as well as developing players through clubs rather than depending on the schools system. Thankfully this is being addressed and some progress has been made. A perfect example of this is the 6 munster lads that have all come from west cork which is a very strong GAA area with no history of producing professional rugby players.
Great points, thank you!
The crop coming through at Munster are class...was hoping to see Coombes get some game time.
@Eggchasers Rugby unfortunately Coombes had a very poor game against the new Zealand A team in November. However, he appears to have taken the hard learnings from this and really worked on his fitness and overall game contributions so I think he is an injury away from making the match day 23 man squad
@@101MIGHTYJOE , If you looked at the "team" that was around him had he the power of Finn McCool he would not have been able to "shine." It seemed to me that there was not an enormous attention, or anticipation, by the coaching staff of what they would have to face. If Coombes was in Scotland , England, or Wales he would already, barring injuries be a regular starter. If the Irish system is a good one, it also has faults and how "central contracts" are awarded can create some difficulties. I hope Coombes grandparents were born in Skibereen, or at least in Ireland otherwise, like Ben Healey he could fly away.
This is proper rugby commentary from a real fan. Good work.
The current IRFU setup was established in 1879 and the provincial sides Munster, Leinster and Ulster were setup at the same time. Connacht was setup in 1886. The first inter provincial competition was held on 1920 So you're right, the existing organisation of the game in Ireland really served us well when Rugby went professional.
very impressive job. congratulations!
when it comes to the French system, not everything is perfect but there has been an undeniable improvement for the past ten years. And JIFF means Joueurs Issus des Filières de Formation, "players from training programmes".
I recently discover and appreciate your work on this channel, I subscribe :) greetings from France
I think a big bit that's missed about Irelands success in respect to Wales or Scotland is the huge amount of private money that gets pumped into the structures underneath Leinster. Probably millions maybe 10s of millions every year year after year that gives Leinster huge quantities of ready made talented professionals who they can keep to the age of 23 or 24. If they don't make it at Leinster they can go off to Ulster Munster or Connacht and have solid careers.
Even in my school who where not big on rugby in any way we had a South African international coaching us at 15 and the head of S&C was ex Wasps. We got knocked out in the first round of the 2011 LSC by a very good Clongows wood side with Tadhg Bernie and Ed Byrne in there. Jack Conan and Luke McGrath would have been in that year group as well. From what I hear now 10 years on the standard today would make us look micky mouse in comparison. I think that's the real difference. The structure on top has to be right but pumping millions into 25 + schools that are professional rugby academics in all but name is ultimately what separates Ireland.
Thanks for the intel. You are absolutely right. A select number of schools have a phenomenal number of international alumni...an incredible production line.
Fast becoming one of the best Rugby YT channels if not already really
Appreciate you watching 👊
This is an excellent video. Thanks very much!
Much appreciated.
Very useful analysis and summary of a complex subject with competing forces.
Only scratched the surface as well...glad it was useful
Great content..... Very enjoyable channel.
Appreciate it Colm
This was so interesting! Well done on the research and breaking down the club and union systems! Think you nailed it on the South African context too. We're basically letting the big-money rugby nations pay our best players, while we cultivate them from a national perspective this side of the world :P
rassie said something interesting: let the european clubs pay top money to look after & develop our players, this opens space in our local clubs to cost-effectively develop more players, all the while keeping english or irish or french youngsters from developing properly bcs the class-A saffas are keeping them out of their positions
@@lm_b5080 Precisely - it's completely in SA's favour. I think the idea of having a nation's players to HAVE play in their domestic leagues is silly. For example, Pollard bringing that tactical English rugby approach back to SA, Faf de Klerk returning with some sneaky tricks he's clearly learning in the Japanese league, all combining into a more rounded side. And yeah, solid point on the Saffas keeping the locals (French, etc) out of their key positions - that's their fault for signing the SA boys :P
Irfu made a deliberate choice to ba k the provinces, threw club rugby under the bus as they knew they couldn't afford to fund the clubs to a similar extent. This has helped make our provisional teams very successful and built the sport at the club level. So maybe it'll all work out in the end. One interesting thing though, most of our best talent come from a small number of private schools straight into academies a d cutting out clubs.
We have to be missing out on naturally talented players who do not get a proper look in, because their parents can not afford to send them to a private school.
@@Norrie_Rugger Most of those players with potential end up playing GAA, because it's what's accessible.
We are seeing a lot more players come through now outside the traditional schools in leinster
@@rossheeney correct. Tadhg Furlong, Michael Milne and Jamie Osborne to name 3. It's likely the majority of Leinster players will continue to be found from the private schools for a long time to come but the door is far from closed for others.
One thing the IRFU could do to further improve things is to allow the fringe players, the third and fourth choice players of the provincial sides , play for their clubs when not included in match day 23s. There is an incredible amount of talent in the provincial sides and when th they are at full strength outside the international windows and with few injuries, these fringe players hardly get any game time.
Thanks. This is good intel. Sharing is caring
Fascinating video. Thanks, I learned a lot. I feel like the RFU and Premiership Rugby are just pretending like nothing ever happened after the bankruptcies. I don't get any sense of urgency.
What a great breakdown of these systems. And yes, I wish Australian Rugby allowed our players to play where they want. Look at how good Nick White was after some time in Devon..
Very insightful. Thanks a mil
While the Irish system does work really well, it could work even better. The A.I.L. was a feeder system in the early years of professionalism that has fallen out of favour, if there was more talent mining and support there, Ireland and the provinces can become even better.
Brilliant analysis on international setups, really enjoyed it.
Brilliant content, thanks !
Thanks for watching!
Great video. Very informative. Content like this looking at the deep factors underpinning pretty much everything the rugby is about in each country is really hard to find. On the USA, I would say that if that train does ever get up to speed then WR might as well paint the Web Ellis Trophy red white and blue. The talent pool there probably more than all the other tier-1 teams combined. And they're big people as well.
100%! Thanks
Yes, this was a very good and informative overview of the different professional set ups. The differences are very interesting and diverse, with varying degrees of success and failure. Rugby is still a very young sport professionally, and is still some way behind the big hitters like football, American sport and even cricket for that matter. The professional problems inherent in English rugby in particular; and to a lesser extent in Wales and Australia, are extremely good for rugby to speed up its professionalism compared to other sporting codes. Hopefully, these shocks, booms, busts and inventive solutions will lead to a better quality global product over time.
Brilliant work.
Very informative 🎯
Appreciate you watching.
in terms of sources of funding - the one maybe left out - is private funding. There is a US style super pac that chips in for big contracts for Munster, Dennis o Brien for Leinster - even Rory McIllroy for Ulster - unsure Connacht in GAA heartland (amateur teams with €2m annual budgets for their senior men's team!) have got much if any kind of a private backing to top things off but it has been a factor - ie Damien de Allende rocky Elsom Charles piatau etc .. which on top of very good central funding pushes the provincial system even further forward.
Thanks, very informative
Fantastic video, well done. In addition to the points below. It seems that the government support is also crucial, the tax breaks that the Irish system allows Irish players to keep more in their pocket and is a positive reason for staying. I feel that government is really important to each of the nations. I believe that during Covid, the Scottish government provided support through the form of a grant rather a loan like the RFU and WRU received. Talking to people around the time it was seen that supporting rugby was partly investing into the local economy. My father had a restaurant near Murrayfield and he needed the match day income to be sustainable. I don't think the same sentiment exists in England and Waled which is another challenge
One element of the Irish set up that you omitted is that, even with Ireland's limited population, Rugby is either only the third or fourth most popular team sport. Ireland's rugby playing population is therefore incredibly small, especially when compared to English, French, New Zealand and Wales (Rugby is the National sport).
So, the IRFU cannot afford to not have control of its key players...
The IRFU’s also has it's provincial succession policy in place. This generally allows for only one foreign player per position to be signed across the four provinces.
For example, if Leinster has signed a foreign 2nd row in to its ranks then no other Irish province can.
Great videos by the way.
IRFU oversight of non Irish qualified players is very important (& was very controversial when introduced).
@@alanmulcahy7749 Yep. I remember Ulster being unhappy about Ruan having to leave.
Thanks for sharing this great analysis
JIFF means Jeune Issu de la Formation Francaise, which litteraly translates into Young Player Educated Within French Academies.
JIFF: Joueur Issu de la Formation Française, players that have gone through French Rugby academies. They put this system in place rather than based on citizenship because otherwise it would have broken EU rules regarding discrimination. Eventually there are French players such as Thibault Flament who are not JIFF and some foreign players, especially Pacific islanders, who joined a French Rugby academy in their mid-teens who are JIFF. Obviously the large majority of JIFF players are French.
Great video as always. The main thing I don’t like about the Scottish system is by only having 2 pro teams we limit the opportunities players get. For example players like Kyle Rowe and Cameron Henderson had to leave Scotland to get game time but I imagine there are plenty who don’t leave and waste there careers away being squad players for Edinburgh or Glasgow when they might have the potential to be greater
the counter arguement, is only having two teams concentrates talent, and develops strong chemistry between players.
A friend and I both agree that Scotland should have a third team. Be it a reviving of the Reviers or set up a Highland team. It would add an extra dimension to the game and broaden the selection pool for the nation.
Thank you; great work!
Merci!
excellent analysis
Great analysis!
Very useful video, Tim, informative and thought-provoking. Nailing my colours to the English mast - as your good self - I agree we need to scrap the ‘you can only play for England if you play in England’ ruling.
After that, I reckon we are probably best served loosely following the French type model and (controversially) reducing the number of clubs playing in the Premiership. I’d do this by withdrawing the bulk of the RFU funding, placing the emphasis back on the clubs to become more self-sustaining (financially) and only getting a top-up from the RFU, based on bringing English qualified players through to the First XV level. That would be the only contribution from the RFU. Clubs would either individually or collectively have to negotiate TV/Broadcasting/ Sponsorship deals. I think this ‘tough love’ would bring about a natural reduction in the number of Premiership clubs (regular or aspiring), which in turn would lead to less player burn-out and more meaningful fixtures.
Otherwise, I can only see a return to the old days where you had set regions: South West, London & Home Counties, Midlands and the North. Clubs being condensed into one of the Four regions. Then you could follow either the Irish or New Zealand models with the top English qualified players centrally contracted and part funded by the RFU, before being leased back to the regions. In this system, even in this scenario, I’d still scrap the only being eligible to play for England if you play in England rule. After all if someone with more money than sense wants to pay our top players mega bucks, then great …! It would be up to the players’ agents to negotiate the appropriate release clauses in their contracts when they sign!
There are benefits in our players playing in other countries as they are usually exposed to other high quality team mates and opposition as well as different styles of coaching. Not paying their high salaries means the RFU can focus on pathways for younger players and catering for specific positional deficiencies within the national set-up.
Club system works better in England than Ireland. English premier clubs are a rough match for Irish province s
@@knoll9812 Can’t see the English system changing anytime soon. However, the number of clubs in the Premiership is an issue IMO .I believe we need to reduce the number, which will mean fewer matches - good for avoiding player burn-out and hopefully meaning an increase in more meaningful , competitive matches.
In nz the Nelson rfu (nz's oldest club)and Marlborough rfu clubs were forced together, as rivals most said it wouldn't work but the tasman mako show all you need is some success lol.
I enjoyed this. Great piece of research. Ireland should be small in the rugby world, but their system is great. So many young players coming through all the well-funded academies and almost all of the players who play for the four provinces are Irish qualified. As for England, they need to look very hard at their system for the national team. Wales, is a mess. I watch games in England and Ireland with full stadiums. Wales provincial teams can't fill a car park, never mind a stadium. Anyway, well done for this.
Excellent video!! Although America's MLR may be doing some good things. I think it's embarrassing to be awarded a RWC but not even qualify 8 yrs out.
Great vid! Very eye opening. I do think NZs model is struggling tho. The true power of nz rugby in the 20th century was in club rugby, which amateur, below the npc (Pro-Am comp). club players were actually the infrastructure and support base for npc. In the past 20 years, that's been stripped away. Today, there's little connection to npc teams, particularly in the SR cities, and super rugby is struggling badly for interest. I think it's a system on the brink
Exactly - club/NPC was our stength Sadly,all the money has been put into the top tier to keep our top players,which has seen the base of the pyramid die.
That is what has killed our game.
Joe forced the issue with the Irish Union after they sacked Kidney, hence the delay to his appointment, essentially it was NZRU 2.0. Overall your assement is excellent, good to watch, added you to my list, suggest you and @TwoCentsRugby and the breakdown are the real go to for me.
Great analysis
A few points on the Irish system.
People overestimate the wage bill. Looking from England or France, yes, Leinster’s team would cost a bomb. But because they develop their own players, they get them for a relative pittance until they’re established. Keenan has only just signed his first central contract. He would’ve been on a lot less than expected up to that. Apparently when Sexton won his second Heineken Cup in 2011, he was still on around 100k per year. You also get them cheaper near the end of their career in a lot of cases because they know they won’t be flogged and they often have families and don’t want to move countries.
Private schools do provide an incredible amount of players. But mainly to Leinster. The other provinces don’t have the same supply line (Ulster do to a degree). Other schools and the clubs also provide players.
The IRFU needed to be ruthless at the start of professionalism. Rugby is in 4th place for field sports in Ireland behind both codes of the GAA and soccer. Irish clubs could never be brought up to the standard like Welsh ones might have. A ready made provincial identity made it easy but even then, they did try and disband Connacht at one stage.
People say “imagine how good England would be with 4 provinces”. England has 56 million people. London alone has 9 million. Ireland has 7. London had London Irish, Harlequins, Saracen’s and Wasps. London vs Ireland would be a fairer comparison.
And lastly, there’s no guarantee that Ireland will continue to be where they are now. It’s quite possible we see a dry spell for talent and a few bad coaching appointments (ahem, Matt O’Connor, ahem) and the wheels come off.
And the WRU earn broadly the same as the IRFU per year, some year more. The Millennium Stadium and it’s hotel make good money. Their setup with regional franchises is just messy and it’s own workings is a blazer-ridden sh1tshow. But I still believe if Ospreys or Cardiff had won the Heineken cup in 2009, it might’ve worked. Instead the Galacticos got hammered in Thomond and Cardiff went out in the cruelest way possible and a lot of Welsh fans turned their back on the whole thing. It would be better for everybody in the URC and Six Nations if they got their act together.
Great analysis and timely for us (Wales)
Great video. As you rightly say, very difficult to get actual figures on Irish Rugby . However ,only a tiny number of players , rumoured to be 14 are now centrally contracted. For example , Hugo Keenan is latest . JVDF as World player of the year , is NOT centrally contracted. Private second level schools effectively provide Leinster with 14 academies ! . Yes , very well supported with Leinster selling around 12000 season tickets.
It is rumoured the highest salaries are around the 500k euro mark for the top few players , then drop to 200k Euro very quickly and top club players on less than 100k euro a year . Academy players who Leinster use a number during the year are on around 10k euro and first year contract players on about 30k euro. Again, nothing ever officially released on salaries but, that is general salaries from various sources. Keep up the great work !
I've learned that from your, and other comments.
Didn't realise the number of IRFU contracts was so small. Very interesting.
@@EggchasersRugby prior covid it was 29 as far as I remember and many were not renewed simply by people retiring or going overseas to play ( Simon Zebo ). People like James Lowe , Gibson Park , Mac Hanson are not on central contracts . Wunderkid Jamie Osborne is on very small money . Glad to help !
I agree that whatever system is used needs to be tailored to the needs of the individual union.
Here in NZ the ABs, while playing for their Super Rugby franchise have limits on the number of games they can play and how many consecutive games they can play. The National Provincial Championship is used as a development league for up and coming players with SR players who didn't get picked for the ABs able to act as mentors to the youngsters.
But the star players are still connected to their club sides and occasionally, for example when returning from injury, will go back and have a run out for their club, which is fantastic for the community. On the day in 2010 that NZ played Australia in Christchurch Sonny Bill Williams played for the Belfast club and there was a huge crowd that afternoon. And more recently Dan Carter went back to play for Southbridge on the return from one of his injuries, this happens regularly.
Ireland
French fan here, very interesting video, very informative. Irish model is excellent of course. What I don't understand for European nations is when you are not allowed to play for your national team when you don't play in the country. I mean, Paris is a 2 hours flight from Dublin or Edinburgh, not 24hrs. It is very close and it wouldn't cause much issues for organization (Toulouse is very happy to have Jack Willis by the way). Wales should do like Scotland, works for them. The JIFF system works in France as 10 years ago, it was like 70% foreigners in top club teams (like Toulon with Wilkinson, Giteau...) it worked for them (3 times Cup winners) but not for National Team (was a disaster between 2010 and 2020). The very bad thing is French League Top 14 is very long and very tiring to play, from September to June, with no stop, play every week-end.
Thank you. I agree with you. I think it would be a benefit to a national team to have some star players experiencing a different rugby environment. Zach Mercer has got SO much better at Montpellier - cannot wait till he is back.
I also really want England to have an equivalent to the JIFF system.
@jpb7887 your last point is very true. The French clubs pay big money to their players but expect value for that money. The IRFU learned its lesson when, 10 years ago, they didn't offer Johnny Sexton enough money in a contract negotiation and he went to France. They made exceptions for him and allowed him to play for Ireland (because they had to to - he was crucial!), but he was playing at Racing in the weeks that the Six Nations matches weren't being played, and therefore often damaged upon his return to the national team, or injured and unavailable. They realised their mistake and started paying the top Irish players more on central contracts (still nothing like the French clubs pay, or even what the English clubs used to pay I think, but I stand open to correction here). But, more importantly, Irish players also realised how much the Irish system protected them from over-playing and prolonged their careers. As an example of moving abroad for more money (I can only assume this here, and I am not being judgmental, as a player has a finite amount of time to make good money), look for instance, at great Welsh players that went to France, such as Jamie Roberts and Leigh Halfpenny. Both world class players before they went. I would argue that their playing careers were cut short by their experience in France, or at the very least their stature and confidence were diminished by it. As the video argues very coherently, each union must decide what works best for its circumstances. Countries like SA and NZ, with a surplus of excellent players, will have to allow them go abroad. Countries like Ireland don't have the player depth to allow that to happen.
@@peterroycroft I like your last sentence and the meaningful comparison between NZ / RSA and Ireland regarding depth of players squad and payment. Then I guess the Scotland model is hybrid, actually à model that works for them with Hogg and Russel playing abroad and excellent.
It’s not about the flight time to Paris. It’s about the Top 14 having the money to outbid other leagues. It would mean the Irish provinces losing most of it’s biggest stars and the collapse in performances at Heineken Cup and league level. Allied to that is the lack of access to players for training camps etc. Basically it would mean Irish rugby feeding layers to the Top 14 while Irish provinces and the national team drop back to the bottom of top tier rugby again. Ticket sales would plummet and the money to fund underage rugby would dry up. There’s literally no benefit to ireland dropping the rules on player eligibility.
Loved it!
Rugby is also the 4th sport in Ireland. just saying.....when you mentioned union was the 4th followed in Oz. great video bud! listen to ye guys every week since day one. Munster fan and Gavin Coombes fan boy! #supergav
Hi, you will find in Ireland because we are a small nation the whole of Ireland supporter the national team by that I mean GAA, Football ect they will all support each other’s particular sport , and the national rugby team. The provinces have great support for that reason.
Nice bit of work.
England back in the very old days used the county system. The Northern counties played each other before losing to Gloucestershire. No use now of course but it does show how things can radically change.
Ireland were fortunate, and the IRFU was shrewd to exploit, the fact that Ireland had historical provinces with established rugby teams nearly as old as the sport itself.
Correct me if I’m wrong. When English Rugby went professional it was the players who instigated for clubs to have the financial control of domestic rugby and took it away from the RFU. They did this because they didn’t trust the ‘old farts’ to share the money or be able to run a successful business. Ironically though, nations with governing bodies who have better control of their pro teams produce a better spectator sport product, look after players better and produce better national teams. If English pro teams were controlled by the RFU I think we would all be complaining that the ‘men in blazers’ were incompetent and greedy, instead we get to complain about clubs being greedy and not interested in the National team.
I think that the Irish system works so well because then provinces seem focussed on feeding the national team, would Saracens, for instance, care if none of their players went for national duty? of course not. there is also a more clear pathway onto the national team which must encourage players
I understand what you are saying about the England development however Saracens have one of the strongest rugby academy’s and actively promote from within their catchment and support their development into the English National System. Consider how many Saracen academy players represented at U20 level. Certainly some academies are stronger than others but not sure Saracens is representative of English player development
Spot on analysis.
Leinster sell 11000 season tickets. Ulster and Munster sell over 8,000 season tickets Connaught sell 4,000 + season tickets Galway ground only holds 7/8000. That helps to fund the game. Remember that rugby is the 3rd game in Ireland behind GAA football and hurling and soccer. Winning a few trophies is a great help. The games being played on Friday nights and Saturday evenings is also a help.
One thing to note is that Irish success is primarily based on private money in the form of private schools around the country feeding through Irish internationals that are ready baked from leaving school. The private school kids get picked up as academy Irish players or go through to the big clubs while being on the feeder for the Irish team. This is unique to Ireland as its a very small closed but intense system. Other countries, Like England, may have similar but the large size there almost rules against them with players getting lost in the system. Many in the know in Ireland also criticise the IFRU (Irish Union) for only supporting local clubs, which don't bring through many international players and any good players here don't feed into the academy and lose interest in pro prospects. Also another Issue in Ireland is that all (very high %) of the talented sports people gravitate toward the GAA sports as it forms the backbone of most Irish towns. Rugby players are a tiny minority of the sports players in the country. If Ireland do well in a World Cup it may convince more youngsters to play the game and then we would have some amazing new talent to bring to the game.
Excellent points, but in fairness it would be hard for someone overseas it see that level of detail.
Appreciate the information. Well beyond my understanding so thanks for filling in the gaps. It tallies from conversations I've had with people at Leinster - incredible schools system - which they hope to build on with outreach to the North of Dublin...some serious untapped talent outside of the usual pathway. What a positive place Irish rugby is in!
What you'll find, is the more successful your team is the more the eyes will get picked out of it by foreign clubs. It's not necessarily the best players either that get taken, it's the next level too. The James Lowes of this world.
The 4 teams in Wales are not regions. The WRU just reduced the number of club team that play in the top flight to 4 club teams. As you say, it made no sense. The only proper ‘regional’ setup in Wales would have been something based on the old county setup or maybe just having it split between West, Mid and East regional teams (maybe a North Wales team too). There is also an argument to go back to a club structure like in France which allows for clubs who do well to get promotion to the top flight since this would resurrect interest at a grass roots level which has collapsed over the last 15 years or so.
The “regionalisation” was an attempt to please everyone. To reduce the number of teams but also maintain a semblance of connection to former clubs (eg Neath-Swansea Ospreys).
The game isn’t rich enough in wales to emulate the French system either.
Regionalisation has worked in that it made the national team competitive (multiple grand slams, finishing 4th twice in the wc, competing and beating everyone aside the All blacks) after decades of failures, but I fear the economic issues are really coming to bare on what was shaky foundations.
I think the Irish affinity for their Provence is not based on GAA. Many others here have described the history of the Irish Provences, but to say that I support Munster rugby has nothing to do with GAA. I’m from Cork and in Munster, all the other counties are our bitter rivals in football and hurling. I would have very little interest in supporting another Munster county in the All Ireland series. I may hope to see perhaps Waterford win an All Ireland as I did Limerick a few years ago but this has nothing to do with them being from Munster. I would equally support Mayo, Wexford or Antrim to win an All Ireland and they are each from the other 3 Provences.
In Scotland, there was a third pro team, which folded some years ago for similar reasons that the Welsh regions are struggling. The Border Reivers couldn't get past the local rivalries of all the border town teams (Melrose, Gala etc.). The last few years has also seen the start of the Super6, a semi-professional league of 6 teams. This was (as far as I'm aware) to try and bridge the gap between the amateur and professional game to help with player development. Whether it'll work, only time will tell.
We actually had 4 teams to start with
@@johngamba4823 Did we? I remember talk of one over Aberdeen way, but didn't know if there actually was a team.
I remember the Reivers! Only adds to the sense that Scotland have learned lessons that Wales seem intent on ignoring.
@@abrahamtomahawk The original pro teams were just the old districts with new names. The North & Midlands became Caledonia Reds but folded fairly quickly
@@johngamba4823 Caledonia Reds! That's them. Cheers.
Nice breakdown mate ...
In Ireland, when professionalism started, individual clubs were still more popular than the Provinces (I remember the first year of the Heineken Cup and Leinster played in a half full Lansdowne Road). However, these clubs never had the numbers of supporters to support a professional game so the IRFU had to go down the provincial route by default - there was no other option. This turned out to a godsend for the IRFU but important to remember that there was no other choice at the time - unlike in England or Wales for example.
It's true. It's easy to look back and say it was a genius move but if truth be told, having 8-10 professional clubs in Ireland was unlikely to ever work. We just don't have enough players.
The provincial setup of rugby in Ireland cannot be compared to the GAA, which provides the country with its two most popular sports Gaelic football and Hurling. In fact, by fan base and player participation, rugby is the fourth most popular sport in Ireland, behind soccer. Compared to rugby, the GAA's basic structure is formed around county- focused club competitions, elite inter-county club competitions and college-based competitions. The elite competitions in Gaelic football and Hurling are inter-county within the framework of All Ireland Championship competitions preceded by a four tier division based National League Championship system for each of the two codes. Clubs supply players to Gaelic football and Hurling academies run by each county. The county panels comprise top players in each code who represent their counties in elite competitions. GAA Identiy is important here. It flows from club, the community the club is located in and represents, to the county system. It attracts very large crowds at each level. By comparison, club rugby isn't a major crowd draw in Ireland, and it lacks mass appeal and community identity. The provincial rugby system is a huge step above, taking top players from national senior club rugby participants, enhancing skills in well funded academies. However successful the four province rugby structure is in Ireland, in both domestic and European competitions, it too lacks the kind of local community base and local identity enjoyed by the GAA and its games. The GAA's provincial Gaelic football and Hurling competitions, year on year, attract larger crowds than rugby. It's amazing, given rugby's place in the order of most popular sports in Ireland, that the country is competitive at international level in this sport at all.
Something to note about the Irish system is that tha majority of players either on the national team and at least leinster come from the private school system. Almost none evolve from the amateur clubs. There seems to be a disconnect from the amateur club system and the professional game.
Just the other day I read an article about amateur clubs scheduling games during the Irish international games. Meaning a lot of amateur players were not in a position to watch the games live.
As for the province loyalty I think that stems from the GAA where you support the county where you were born no matter where you live. The follow on from that is you support the province your county is located.
It really be understated just how import JIFF has been. Look at the "great" Toulon side, that won back to back, that had 3 Frenchmen in the entire 23. Now look at La Rochelle Toulouse Toulon Stade, all have elibigble players to contribute.
100%!
South Africa have to sort out the travel arrangements regarding playing in the URC. It’s a bit messy at the moment.
I think Joe Schmidt and Andy Farrell are a big factor in Ireland being no.1.
Have to agree. And to think we (England) let Farrell go!🙈
In Ireland,
All professional sport people after 10 years can claim all their taxes back .
The 10 years don’t have to run consecutively .
So take Sexton for example.. he went to Paris for 2 years ..
he just adds the years before and after up and at the end get the all his taxes back .. no upper limit on how many years you can collect.. so that’s another incentive to keep the lads here .
Nice big lump at the end of your playing career .
I wasnt sure of the detail but I was aware of the tax break. Wow...that is a hefty incentive to stay put! It should definitely have made the list of bullet points.
@@EggchasersRugby It was put in place to support horse racing originally because it earns the country an awful lot of money and the minister for finance of the day was A: a horse racing fan, and B: a bit of a chancer. It came about in 2002 and is available to all professional sports people. Irish players factor it into their pay offers when they’re deciding on taking an overseas contract for more money.
Yes this is a great incentive for Irish players to play at home, however it’s not ALL their tax, it’s 40% of their tax paid in those 10 years. Does not include money earned from sponsorship etc.
I have some SA heritage and formative years. A few other factors outside of the professional association which make SA produce great players:
A). A fantastic school system. Very serious rugby teams / coaches. Almost all had to play rugby in my day. I didn’t want to - but was happy later that I was forced to. Wonderful memories.
B). Outdoor and sporty life style backed by more sunshine.
C). Excellent mixed diet including affordable quality meat, fish, vegetables and fruit.
D). Genetics. Some of the people come from big genetic stock.
E). Regular altitude training can’t be avoided. Is beneficial. Resultant high fitness levels.
F) A rugby culture. People love rugby passionately. They take it seriously.
The professional systems has a solid foundation. An excess of quality players. Scotland decided to benefit from that most. England might consider the same.
No. We need to stay English. I rather an England team lost than a world 15 won.
C) Don't forget pap! That gives our boys' diet an edge over every other country
Hi John
Why do you think that the high quality of the South African School rugby hasn’t translated to success at national U20 level ? The U20 RWC’s have been dominated by France,England and New Zealand. I am really surprised that South Africa hasn’t done better.
What is the path for a rugby player post school to the national set up ?
@@patrickchilds2987 quota system
As French, just a small mistake, French players can play abroad and still be eligible for national team (as Picamoles did a few years ago) but it just does not really apply as all French players plays in Top 14 because of the JIFF system
One thing I want to add for NZ is that many people still feel more connected to their Provincial teams and because the Super Rugby teams are just the major cities so, the tribalism isn't there unless you live in Christchurch. For example the Blues include Northland, North Harbour and Auckland but no one likes Auckland so the disconnect is wide.
Your knowledge is excellent