I appreciate your perspective so much! Thank you so much for all the work you put into this. I think that if there was more discussion of the people, not as much could be glossed over so grossly. Unfortunately I think it's going to take a while to get the UK in general all on the same page, not just the NT - but it can't not happen eventually. Thank you for doing your part!
Wonderful video. Thank you for all of the research you put into it. It's breathtaking, the number of stories the National Trust could be sharing. And yet, and yet - they are not. It will be interesting to see how the Hall's exhibits evolve over the next while. If the last update was done sometime in the 1920's then there's nowhere else to go but up... I hope. - Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
"People were mentioned." That sums up a few historical places I've been to--as well as history classes I've taken where it's nothing but memorizing dates of battles and wars and governments. Ugh. I geek out over architecture and art, but I also want to see how people LIVED in their environment, and not just the hoity-toities. This was really fascinating! P.S. I tried to pop over to Mimi's channel but it gives a 404 error.
I don't know if you had chance to visit the Derby Museum, but if you are there again (and assuming the exhibits haven't changed) there's an exhibit I'd be interested to know your take on. There's a room showing all the objects, categorised by their use or presumed use, for which the museum does not have a legitimate provenance trail and which may have been bought or may have been looted or stolen.
Thank you for this report and update! I'm glad we have you to slap around another clueless, British museum. I love a good museum, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the lack of human narrative. We visited Buckingham Palace, and besides the fact that it was a really hot day, and the non-airconditioned palace had opened their windows and let in so many flies to crawl around on the antique fabrics and paintings, the tour was also not focused on the narratives of the people living there--present and historical. Things may have been improved since 1996 when we visited. In September we are going to Provence and hope to hit some museums. I'll report back.
I guess, for me, I like to know about all of the people who lived and worked in a place. When Cathy Hay decided not to continue to make the Peacock Dress, I fell that was a mistake. She took the time do a lot of research and while I expect no interpretation to be perfect, I would have liked to see the dress the way it was seen over 100 years ago. She could have also talked about the workmanship of the Indian embroiders, made sure that the name of the workshop and any employees were given credit. Just because the colonial masters were in charge, does not mean we don't display and acknowledge the craftmanship of the people under their thumb. I believe their excellent work should be displayed, even if we cannot name all of the people.
@@mcomeslast Those modern day craftsmen are _not_ generally paid a living wage because they are women working in the garment industry. One of the few non-sweatshops that was in communication with Ms. Hay? He was scolded by his elders for even considering the project. The peacock dress is remembered in India. And it is far from a fond memory. Which is why she was looking for beading companies in Dubai... If it was made, it was going to be done in a country other than India. - Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
@@stevezytveld6585 thanks. Yes, that would be an insult. I know there were other RUclips sewers who made the peacock dress (when everyone was sewing their fav Worth). I think they beaded their own dresses, which is what Cathy should have done.
@@mcomeslast What Ms. Hay was doing by hiring out the hard, hard work of the beading was exactly what Worth did. The dress exists. Why recreate something that celebrates the subcontinent being subjected to foreign rule?
@@stevezytveld6585 it’s also art. I’m glad discussing it keeps the history, including in this case, the bad parts in front of us. I see people screaming about this dress think nothing of ordering from Temu and Shein. As sewers, we love to sew and create. If it can keep history from being forgotten, great. But no one will dictate what I sew.
Yikes. Thank you for this. I've never been to Kedleston Hall - but I am a member of the National Trust. I can say that, thankfully, not all of their properties are as cold and devoid of human context and connection as you describe Kedleston as being. I believe that this is an aspect of the interpretation and presentation of their properties, and the stories behind them, that the NT is working on. However... unfortunately, this is in the face of some pushback - not least the reactionary, ahem, 'anti woke' group: Restore Trust. Yeah... Do better, and do it faster, NT. I would love to think they would take you up on your offer of consultancy.
If I ever visit I want to come with my homemade Mrs Garnett merch, my t-shirt with her painting saying "Go Garnett Go!" and share Garnett facts™ with my fellow visitors.
Also she was going to have the embroidery dobe by thr Indian company who had done the origibal and that company still had the origibal patterns. They were vert excited to do the project and proud of having made the original. That got entirely buried under the pearl clutching about the audacity of recreating the dress. The "meaning" of the dress buried all.
One of the owners of the Indian beading company Ms. Hay was in communication with was scolded by his elders for even considering the project. The original peacock dress is still remembered. It is not a fond memory. - Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
Neither of these comments is accurate. The company I was going to work with were a well known NY Indian family company who create costumes for Broadway and didn't particularly need the work afaik. Cathy, the company you're thinking of were Maayankraj Singh's contacts. If my contacts has had such a reaction I would have thought twice much sooner. As far as I was aware, my contacts were simply excited to do something ambitious. Or at least, that's all they conveyed to me.
Idk... I do tend to think: Did the person who designed that actually consider cleaning it - regularly. I'm always curious about planning, processes and systems people come up with. Sure, balls have social dynamics and rules. But that's why everything I know about wealthy people cones from period etiquette guides, and home care manuals.
I was so disappointed how everyone dogpiled on Cathy about the dress. She seemed to be trying to bring attention to the artists involved and educate on the labor injustice. The dress belonged to an aristocratic colonist which is very unfortunate. (Where's this same cancel energy for Worth who gladly dressed these colonists and accepted their blood money?) The bulk of England's major estate homes and institutions were funded by what we now see as unethical activities. As are many institutions of America and even Canada. Should they all shut their doors now that we recognize that? Social ethics were very different back during the peacock dress time. We cant change that. But we can separate the art from the artist with an understanding of the artists societal norms. The context of the era is important to keep in mind and educate on or else we couldn't enjoy absolutely anything of beauty from history. Classical artists used paints and materials that likely took advantage of miners or farmers. Do we now need to cancel them and remove them from museums? No one should enjoy or recreate famous paintings? In 100 years we'll look back on our current societal ethics and be disgusted by what was acceptable. We wear clothes made by poverty stricken communities and use synthetic materials that will never break down, etc. All we can do is try to be better than we were. I think its a shame the artists couldn't get their due praise because the purchaser was unethical. It required a more neuanced discussion for sure but it seemed to me Cathy was willing to learn and she got stomped on by everyone all at once. Anyhoo, I agree that the hall should be fully interpreted as a part of that familys legacy - the good and bad. Hopefully with this perspective they'll improve.
"Unethical activities"? English landowners directly owned people and worked them to death foreign lands for generation after generation. You mean that kind of unethical activity? The dress exists. It still exists, thanks to conservation work. It didn't need to be remade. The Indian beading companies that Ms. Hay was in contact with remember the original dress. It is not a fond memory. Which is why the beading company she was going to be working with was in Dubai. The orignal dress was specifically made to celebrate India being owned and controlled by the British. You cannot separate an object from it's context. - Cathy (&, accidentally, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
I am philosophical about happened in Sept/Oct/Nov 2021. I hold no bitterness or resentment about anything that anyone said or did, I don't take it personally, and I respectfully invite you to do the same. It was a conversation that needed to happen, and this particular dress was just one glaring example with which to talk about why context is important. It served a bigger purpose.
Huge fortunes are always built on exploitation and outright crimes. Kettlestone is a shrine to money, a way for the family to show off its wealth and power. It’s built on blood and bones, places like that all are. I grew up in the plantation South; keep finding the same old story of colonialism and exploitation keeps showing up in grand old houses.
If you designed a museum, what would you put in it & how would you arrange it? (Assume unlimited budget for the sake of a dream museum). To be slightly fair... that part of the hall was designed as the sort of extravagant display case common at the time. I'm sure the National Trust have to work within the limits of architecture. Although, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to at least create more of those laminated interpretation cards to tell more of the story of the people who lived there?
I would love to be involved in the creation of a city museum for my hometown. There's a provincial museum, but there isn't anything much for the history of the city. More generally, I think a food museum would be fun :)
@@professorpeachez Oh, nice! I think my hometown's history is basically, "There were Native Americans here until we took over. And now Six Flags is here." We do have a firehouse museum in town, though. Certainly no history of the town museum. A food museum could go a lot of ways, whether you do the whole hunter-gatherer through agriculture but or keep local... the foods eaten by the natives, then the settlers, food brought by various immigrant groups, local "We're famous for ___" specialties, etc. Neat idea!
Thank you very much for discussing the interpretation direction at this site. You have made me mindful of an issue to consider when I visit England for the first time next year. I'm now used to researching in advance how historical sites in the United States present the history of enslaved persons and their enslavers, Natives, and other marginalized persons. I definitely noticed some excellent changes in such interpretation when I recently visited New Orleans. Good video!
A little off topic, but it’s been killing me for several videos now…. Can you please share the name of the song right at the beginning of the video? I love it but can’t identify it! Please and thank youuuu
I appreciate your perspective so much! Thank you so much for all the work you put into this. I think that if there was more discussion of the people, not as much could be glossed over so grossly. Unfortunately I think it's going to take a while to get the UK in general all on the same page, not just the NT - but it can't not happen eventually. Thank you for doing your part!
Wonderful video. Thank you for all of the research you put into it. It's breathtaking, the number of stories the National Trust could be sharing. And yet, and yet - they are not. It will be interesting to see how the Hall's exhibits evolve over the next while. If the last update was done sometime in the 1920's then there's nowhere else to go but up... I hope.
- Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
"People were mentioned." That sums up a few historical places I've been to--as well as history classes I've taken where it's nothing but memorizing dates of battles and wars and governments. Ugh. I geek out over architecture and art, but I also want to see how people LIVED in their environment, and not just the hoity-toities. This was really fascinating!
P.S. I tried to pop over to Mimi's channel but it gives a 404 error.
The link to Mimi's channel is fixed! I'm glad you enjoyed the video :)
I don't know if you had chance to visit the Derby Museum, but if you are there again (and assuming the exhibits haven't changed) there's an exhibit I'd be interested to know your take on. There's a room showing all the objects, categorised by their use or presumed use, for which the museum does not have a legitimate provenance trail and which may have been bought or may have been looted or stolen.
Thank you for this report and update! I'm glad we have you to slap around another clueless, British museum. I love a good museum, and I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the lack of human narrative. We visited Buckingham Palace, and besides the fact that it was a really hot day, and the non-airconditioned palace had opened their windows and let in so many flies to crawl around on the antique fabrics and paintings, the tour was also not focused on the narratives of the people living there--present and historical. Things may have been improved since 1996 when we visited. In September we are going to Provence and hope to hit some museums. I'll report back.
Thank you for sharing Mimi’s channel!
Thanks for such an interesting & insightful video!
I guess, for me, I like to know about all of the people who lived and worked in a place. When Cathy Hay decided not to continue to make the Peacock Dress, I fell that was a mistake. She took the time do a lot of research and while I expect no interpretation to be perfect, I would have liked to see the dress the way it was seen over 100 years ago. She could have also talked about the workmanship of the Indian embroiders, made sure that the name of the workshop and any employees were given credit. Just because the colonial masters were in charge, does not mean we don't display and acknowledge the craftmanship of the people under their thumb. I believe their excellent work should be displayed, even if we cannot name all of the people.
Yes, she was bullied. She could have used it to showcase these craftsman now.
@@mcomeslast Those modern day craftsmen are _not_ generally paid a living wage because they are women working in the garment industry.
One of the few non-sweatshops that was in communication with Ms. Hay? He was scolded by his elders for even considering the project. The peacock dress is remembered in India. And it is far from a fond memory.
Which is why she was looking for beading companies in Dubai... If it was made, it was going to be done in a country other than India.
- Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
@@stevezytveld6585 thanks. Yes, that would be an insult. I know there were other RUclips sewers who made the peacock dress (when everyone was sewing their fav Worth). I think they beaded their own dresses, which is what Cathy should have done.
@@mcomeslast What Ms. Hay was doing by hiring out the hard, hard work of the beading was exactly what Worth did.
The dress exists. Why recreate something that celebrates the subcontinent being subjected to foreign rule?
@@stevezytveld6585 it’s also art. I’m glad discussing it keeps the history, including in this case, the bad parts in front of us. I see people screaming about this dress think nothing of ordering from Temu and Shein. As sewers, we love to sew and create. If it can keep history from being forgotten, great. But no one will dictate what I sew.
Absolutely love your content!! Keep it up!
Yikes. Thank you for this.
I've never been to Kedleston Hall - but I am a member of the National Trust. I can say that, thankfully, not all of their properties are as cold and devoid of human context and connection as you describe Kedleston as being. I believe that this is an aspect of the interpretation and presentation of their properties, and the stories behind them, that the NT is working on. However... unfortunately, this is in the face of some pushback - not least the reactionary, ahem, 'anti woke' group: Restore Trust.
Yeah... Do better, and do it faster, NT. I would love to think they would take you up on your offer of consultancy.
If I ever visit I want to come with my homemade Mrs Garnett merch, my t-shirt with her painting saying "Go Garnett Go!" and share Garnett facts™ with my fellow visitors.
I'd wear that tshirt
Well done. Good points.
Also she was going to have the embroidery dobe by thr Indian company who had done the origibal and that company still had the origibal patterns. They were vert excited to do the project and proud of having made the original. That got entirely buried under the pearl clutching about the audacity of recreating the dress. The "meaning" of the dress buried all.
One of the owners of the Indian beading company Ms. Hay was in communication with was scolded by his elders for even considering the project.
The original peacock dress is still remembered. It is not a fond memory.
- Cathy (&, accidently, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
Neither of these comments is accurate. The company I was going to work with were a well known NY Indian family company who create costumes for Broadway and didn't particularly need the work afaik. Cathy, the company you're thinking of were Maayankraj Singh's contacts. If my contacts has had such a reaction I would have thought twice much sooner. As far as I was aware, my contacts were simply excited to do something ambitious. Or at least, that's all they conveyed to me.
@@stevezytveld6585that sounds like a lot of hearsay.
Well presented arguments.
What a disappointing, missed opportunity on the part of the Hall to broaden their impact via a more human and interpretive presentation.
Thx for this video!!!
Idk... I do tend to think: Did the person who designed that actually consider cleaning it - regularly. I'm always curious about planning, processes and systems people come up with. Sure, balls have social dynamics and rules. But that's why everything I know about wealthy people cones from period etiquette guides, and home care manuals.
Such a bummer you weren't able to see the dress in person, but a great side quest nonetheless!
I was so disappointed how everyone dogpiled on Cathy about the dress. She seemed to be trying to bring attention to the artists involved and educate on the labor injustice. The dress belonged to an aristocratic colonist which is very unfortunate. (Where's this same cancel energy for Worth who gladly dressed these colonists and accepted their blood money?) The bulk of England's major estate homes and institutions were funded by what we now see as unethical activities. As are many institutions of America and even Canada. Should they all shut their doors now that we recognize that? Social ethics were very different back during the peacock dress time. We cant change that. But we can separate the art from the artist with an understanding of the artists societal norms. The context of the era is important to keep in mind and educate on or else we couldn't enjoy absolutely anything of beauty from history. Classical artists used paints and materials that likely took advantage of miners or farmers. Do we now need to cancel them and remove them from museums? No one should enjoy or recreate famous paintings? In 100 years we'll look back on our current societal ethics and be disgusted by what was acceptable. We wear clothes made by poverty stricken communities and use synthetic materials that will never break down, etc. All we can do is try to be better than we were. I think its a shame the artists couldn't get their due praise because the purchaser was unethical. It required a more neuanced discussion for sure but it seemed to me Cathy was willing to learn and she got stomped on by everyone all at once. Anyhoo, I agree that the hall should be fully interpreted as a part of that familys legacy - the good and bad. Hopefully with this perspective they'll improve.
"Unethical activities"? English landowners directly owned people and worked them to death foreign lands for generation after generation. You mean that kind of unethical activity?
The dress exists. It still exists, thanks to conservation work. It didn't need to be remade. The Indian beading companies that Ms. Hay was in contact with remember the original dress. It is not a fond memory. Which is why the beading company she was going to be working with was in Dubai.
The orignal dress was specifically made to celebrate India being owned and controlled by the British. You cannot separate an object from it's context.
- Cathy (&, accidentally, Steve), Ottawa/Bytown/Pimisi
I am philosophical about happened in Sept/Oct/Nov 2021. I hold no bitterness or resentment about anything that anyone said or did, I don't take it personally, and I respectfully invite you to do the same. It was a conversation that needed to happen, and this particular dress was just one glaring example with which to talk about why context is important. It served a bigger purpose.
Huge fortunes are always built on exploitation and outright crimes. Kettlestone is a shrine to money, a way for the family to show off its wealth and power. It’s built on blood and bones, places like that all are. I grew up in the plantation South; keep finding the same old story of colonialism and exploitation keeps showing up in grand old houses.
If you designed a museum, what would you put in it & how would you arrange it? (Assume unlimited budget for the sake of a dream museum).
To be slightly fair... that part of the hall was designed as the sort of extravagant display case common at the time. I'm sure the National Trust have to work within the limits of architecture. Although, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to at least create more of those laminated interpretation cards to tell more of the story of the people who lived there?
I would love to be involved in the creation of a city museum for my hometown. There's a provincial museum, but there isn't anything much for the history of the city. More generally, I think a food museum would be fun :)
@@professorpeachez Oh, nice! I think my hometown's history is basically, "There were Native Americans here until we took over. And now Six Flags is here." We do have a firehouse museum in town, though. Certainly no history of the town museum.
A food museum could go a lot of ways, whether you do the whole hunter-gatherer through agriculture but or keep local... the foods eaten by the natives, then the settlers, food brought by various immigrant groups, local "We're famous for ___" specialties, etc. Neat idea!
Thank you very much for discussing the interpretation direction at this site. You have made me mindful of an issue to consider when I visit England for the first time next year. I'm now used to researching in advance how historical sites in the United States present the history of enslaved persons and their enslavers, Natives, and other marginalized persons. I definitely noticed some excellent changes in such interpretation when I recently visited New Orleans. Good video!
A little off topic, but it’s been killing me for several videos now…. Can you please share the name of the song right at the beginning of the video? I love it but can’t identify it! Please and thank youuuu
Antonín Dvořák - Serenade for strings in E major :) I really like this piece which is why I use it so much
@@professorpeachezthank you so much!!
The link for Mimi's channel didn't work for me...
Ah! I'm not sure why it wasn't before, but it's fixed now!
V eye count = viscount
Hope you get employment as a NT Consultant.