i love your videos. i just started learning at 27 and you explain this in a way that i can actually understand. So thank you. New favorite welding channel.
Thanks for the kind words. I try to focus on making complex things simpler so everyone can have a better understanding of what’s going on. Luckily you don’t need a PHD or even an associates degree to be able to make decent welds and build really cool stuff. I am sure you will learn fast and be making cool stuff in no time, since you’re already out seeking knowledge to better your skills 😀👍
I'm just amazed how these videos are free for anyone to learn from. The experience and wisdom shows, and it's easy to follow when it's presented calmly with additional info boxes. The bend test showing the strength was great concrete example instead of just saying "trust me on this one".
I am glad you liked the video. I enjoy sharing information and help people better understand things so they can become more skilled 😀. There is a lot of “welding wisdom” that’s wrong, and that’s why I think it’s important to show simple practical tests to give evidence to support my opinion. That’s also why I encourage people to do their own testing, since regardless of what I say someone else can have different results. Although most of the time people have worse results than me 😅.
There is a use-case for every welding technology. It is good for me to listen to the advantages of other welding technologies that I cannot afford and don't wish to buy. I don't really fall into their use-cases. That said, my 110v buzz box with 60xx sticks, with all their limitations, fits my needs very well. I need to think more about the engineering of the piece, the cleanliness of the prep, how to better use all the juice I can out of my little '70s welder, and to practice and improve my welding. Within the limits of whatever machine you have, there is wide scope for improvement and doing the best looking and strongest weld you can. As I cannot weld in the winter, so am batching up all my welding ideas. Thanks, Greg.
Another interesting discussion so far! I look forward to enjoying the rest of the video, but so far, just as excellent as usual. It's becoming a habit for you to upload educational, attention-holding content. Keep on keeping on!
As someone who's trying to learn welding on my own practicing in my garage, this video is very informative. I struggled trying to understand what I can realistically weld based on thickness.
A good way to think of the “big picture” is thin material that’s not highly stressed will likely still hold together with minimal strength weld fillers and some weld defects. Thicker material that sees stress will be far more likely to cause weld failures due to weak welds (be in filler material or defect issues). If what you’re welding sees high vibration/impact forces/stress cycles/extreme heat changes/ or flat out a lot of force, weld defects and weak fillers should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes a poor design will never hold up regardless of the quality of weld, and in such cases reengineering should be looked at to fix the problem. The whole thing sounds complicated (and it can be) but realistically focus on putting down the cleanest welds you can with the right process and with reasonable engineering you won’t likely have failures.
Also, the practical limitations for the processes are accurate as described in the video. I will do a whole video with demonstrations on why those are the case, but for the time being use that as a guide. The upper limit of thickness really comes down to how much amperage the machine has. A 140amp wire welder shouldn’t be used to weld over 3/16th material. A 200a can weld about 1/4 with proper root fusion. A 240a machine can weld up to about 5/16th in the short circuit mode. Above 5/16th spray arc (think super high voltage like 27 volts, 210+ amps, and special gas mixtures) or dual shield (gas shielded flux core wire) should be used. With stick you can make clean welds on thicker steel with 3/32 and 1/8th rods without issue, between 80 and 130 amps. Tig can weld thick material without any issue, at or above about 130a.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank you, I have a question. I see and hear alot about multipasses they would use 6010 or 6011 as a Root pass and then use 7018 to fill. I understand that 6010/6011 has more penetration but would that effect the weld strength? or does 7018 fill essentially negate this. Why not just use 7018 as a root rod?
back from your 7024 video i bought 50lbs of 5/32 7024 and used most on my last 2 projects. how fast they put down metal, and how easy they restart was fantastic. i got around the flat only by flipping the object around with tractor and chains and welded whatever is facing up. only problem is sometimes tight filets they get wormholes where it dont connect to one side, theres so much puddle slag i couldnt tell when it happens. but there so fast and easy i considered it worth it to just go back with a 6010 and melt the wormholes closed. maybe not ideal but i enjoyed it more than 7018
Good stuff. I'm using my Christmas break to put together the bed for my skoolie crawler hauler. Figured I'd give my MIG a break and use the Rogue with 7018 to get some good practice in. On another note, my brother in law got me one of those HF titanium welding hoods for Christmas and it's surprisingly clearer than my miller digital elite from ~ 2011.
Thanks, Greg, this was very interesting and done well. There is another YT welder who is trained and experienced who left his pipeliner job to start his own welding business that appears to focus on steel fencing plus other steel tube\pipe projects. On farm fencing, fyi, he uses 80XX series stick rods. I don't want to speak for him, and maybe that's not always the case, but I heard him say it a few times. I'm not trying to impart right or wrong, just sharing what others seem to do who seem (from my noob perspective) to have some knowledge on the subject. Idk maybe he just had a lot of 80XX left laying around from his days of welding thick stuff. For my fencing, and your advice here notwithstanding, I probably would go with 7, but would also probably be fine with 6, as my loads are not anticipated to be large or under harsh freezes, etc. The ed you offer here is worth $1M, thanks Greg
So I have a lot of thoughts on that. 8010 is basically a higher strength 6010 specifically made for pipe. Using it on fencing and non liability stuff would likely work fine. The problem with 8010 is on practical applications (such as say welding a leaf spring hanger, or building your own trailer) it likely will not be as good as 7018. 7018 can handle impact forces, vibrations, and stress very well. Cellulose rods can be very strong, but they typically are used on things where the stresses are completely different than common things people make. I would almost guarantee you that 7018 will outperform 7010 and 8010 on a vast majority of things a person might make, and will be far better at making repairs. 8010 imparts hydrogen into the weld and that is something you don’t want to do when welding higher strength steel (say stuff on a tractor or loader) due to hydrogen embrittlement. From a realistic standpoint I would never use 8010 on fences because it costs way more money than cheap common 6010 or 6011, and there is very little to no benefit to using it. If I had a few pallets of it for free no doubt I would use it but it doesn’t make financial sense to buy over cheaper rods.
You got me thinking Greg. I have a project where I’ll need to do fillet welds on 1/4 plate. I was planning on using 6011 for penetration but now I’m thinking 7018 might be better. It will certainly look better.
On 1/4 inch and above I would use 7018. Keep in mind the loss of root penetration means it would be in your best interest to weld both sides of the fillet weld if possible. If what you’re welding is say square tube on a flat plate, the lack of a weld inside the tube isn’t a concern because the tube being fully welded outside prevents the weld from being stressed towards the face. 7018 will fuse the root, it just won’t have much beyond that. If you think that may be an issue it’s best to look at ways to improve that rather than going to 6011.
Im welding the unibody box frame under my jeep. Ill be cutting the rusted sections out and plating new metal over the area, so Im some what new to welding and useing flux core 030. it is where the controll arm mount to the frame , so its a stress area. Does what this video show apply to plating.dont worry about my feelings , I respect people that know moor than me.
I know the process you’re talking about well, it’s very common in the rust belt up here in the northern states. The most common solution to that issue is flux core. It will produce cleaner welds than short arc mig on sub par material, and it’s far easier than stick. When you plate over things you have the benefit of new clean steel helping to control burn though, and the lap weld that is created is far easier to weld than say a butt weld. If I were you I would practice on the same thickness material same as the weld position and once you can get solid welds on the practice switch to the real frame. Clean/prep the surface as much as possible, and if you make a hole in it wait for it to cool, clean it up, and start welding again. The fewer defects and cleaner the welds are the stronger t will be. Also, you may want to consider .035 wire. .035 tends to have more flux in it and it tends to handle contamination better. I would highly recommend that you buy a quality wire like Hobart fab shield 21b or Lincoln nr211. They tend to weld far better than cheaper options, and they don’t become brittle when they are welded multi pass/thick. Normal -gs spec wire becomes more brittle if you weld multi pass and that can be an issue if strength/impact resistance is required.
@@rvmagnum5415 I'm not trying to talk down to you but you said don't worry about hurting your feelings. If you are welding under a car plan ahead for a fire. Little fires are easy to put out if you have a plan.
According to an internet search the heat required for welding steel is between 35 and 65 kjoules per inch. Both the ESAB and Miller phone welding apps state that the short circuit welding process can be used for up to 3/8" steel. The ESAB app states that multiple passes are required. The Miller app does not mention whether multiple passes are required or not. Calculating the watts being used for the ESAB app, gives an upper range of 4305 watts which converts to 4.305 kjoules per second. Something else that popped up on search is "Typical heat input values for controlled heat input welding will tend to be ~1.0-~3.5kJ/mm. Cold cracking is a matter of concern only when heat input is less than 3 kJ/mm. When welding low alloyed steel, the heat input should be approx. 2,5 kJ/mm." Knowing the weld length an estimate of travel speed can be calculated. The heat input within a specific time for a specific size of steel must be the determining factors no matter what the welding process. Short circuit mig is not recommended by anybody for over 3/8" thickness. This must be because it fails on meeting the heat input within a specific time for steel over 3/8". I have seen a RUclips video that stated the proper mig welding technique was to keep the wire at the leading edge of the weld puddle. Could part of the problem with poor fusion with short circuit be that the wire was more in the weld puddle and not at its leading edge? It is a little confusing to me why TIG and stick multiple passes are OK for welding thicker steel which you defined as over 1/4" but not for short circuit mig to reach 3/8" thickness. Perhaps a mention in one of your videos how an estimate of travel speed can be calculated based on a given kjoules per inch? I do like your welding videos and am glad you like to talk because I like to listen.
When I was running er70-t11 self shielded wire I cut and etched a few welds and all of them had slag in the root. I didn’t really have that with 7018 unless my rod angle was really off. Surprisingly I built like 3 or 4 trailers with self shielded flux core and not one weld failed. Even though I was towing doubles and heavy loads of scrap at the time. Matter of fact the truck bed trailer I have as my banner picture on here was one of those trailers.
What you described is very common with self shielded flux core. Every cut and etch I have done with .035 self shielded flux core on 5/16th or thicker material has had 1-2 pin dots of porosity deep in the weld. The surface often looks spotless yet there is porosity internally. The welds t-11 deposits are incredibly strong, if not a bit brittle. They are definitely stronger than 60xx rods and you probably had more than adequate weld size for the job. Not to mention the welds probably had minimal defects at the surface which likely helped. Depending on how things were welded it’s entirely possible a root with slag wouldn’t be an issue because the material couldn’t bend in a way a weak root would be an issue. Where I find failures with stuff like that is impact force. A lot of guys weld on suspension parts on axles and frames for off road trucks with flux core, and it’s very common for the stuff to hold up to a lot of abuse but fail during a impact.
Awesome video! Do you have any advice on welding bicycle or motorcycle frames? Just having a hard time on settings trying to avoid having the puddle too hot but dont want change so much that I end with a cold weak weld. Thanks and Happy Holidays!
So I won’t sugar coat it, bike frames are probably the toughest situation for welding. The reasons are simple: 1) small round objects are hard to make long welds on. 2) thin material is tough to weld without making holes, 3) sometimes frames are made out of chromoly which although it doesn’t need a preheat (on bike tube thickness that is) it tends to be harder to weld without defects like undercut. I won’t lie, I know I could 100% weld bike frames with tig with perfect welds, mig is actually harder. It might take even me some time to dial in MiG welds. There are a ton of things you can do to “help” yourself on hard jobs like that. If the material is 1/8th (3.2mm) or thinner I would highly suggest looking at .024 mig wire if you’re mig welding it. The thinner wire allows you to make smaller welds and control blow through better. You must find a way to keep the wire angle consistent. On small tube it’s very easy to drastically change the angle the wire is being fed into the molten puddle, and that’s bad news. You will need to remove your hands/arms significantly to achieve consistent welds. Another major issue is uphill vs downhill. Welding uphill with mig is tough in general because the molten pool is so liquid. On thin stuff uphill welding is almost guaranteed holes with anything short of perfection in settings/movement. Downhill is far easier but it limits penetration and that can be a serious issue. If I had to tackle bike frames with mig I would practice running beads on the same diameter tube as the frame and once I got good I would weld the frame. I would try to avoid as many starts as possible, lack of fusion often follows a start with mig welding. I would likely weld the tube In 2 welds but if you’re unable 3 is ok, no more than 4. Presumably if you tack weld it together it is in your best interest to grind down the tacks and not just weld over them. You can leave tacks full thickness on the side you’re not welding first (to help prevent them from breaking) but the side you’re welding grind them down. Once welded feather the other side and then weld them. Welding over tacks creates a reduced fusion area around the tack and that’s not good. As far as heat to set things at, you want to set it so that you are achieving some root fusion. If you cut and etch a test joint and have 0 root fusion this is undesirable. Setting it too hot is also undesirable because you can get suck back inside the tube (where the weld pulls the inside of the tube out towards the weld as it solidifies). I know this is a significant amount of info and things to think of. The truth is if you make clean welds and get things dialed in, the welds should hold up longer than the tube will. Tig is actually the easiest to achieve near perfect welds on such things, that’s why I never spent much time getting good at mig on small bore thin wall pipe. Ta doable but takes practice. I need to do a video on this so I can fail a bunch and dial things in lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg wow, thank you very much! I bought a few tubes with the same diameter and practicing a lot. So far, I can do in 4 steps but planning to reduce to 3. The frame is 1.25 in diameter with a 1/8in wall. It has another tube inside to connect both sides and add strenght (it is a butt joint). It also requires a few rosette welds. So, in the end, I'll add a bevel to the frame and the hardtail kit already comes with the inner tube and a bevel on the outside tube, Thickness here might not be an issue with this additional tube. My biggest issue now is getting my puddle too hot (or too big). Really appreciate if you could do a video about it. There is a lot of info on square tubes, but almost none on round, specially on butt joints. Thanks again for the detailed reply!
27:43 that is actually backwards. You increase the length of the lever that the weld is holding, and so keeping the moment the same you reduce the force seen by the weld.
I think we both said the same thing. A multi pass weld would hold more of the lever, effectively reducing the lever length that can act on the toe of the weld. Most of the “lever” the weld is holding doesn’t move at all when pressure is applied in the press. The more passes the less of the “lever” moves under significant loading, reducing the lever length. The failure has to more to do with the tension on the face of the weld at the toe line than anything else. Increasing the length of the lever would require less pressure from the press to cause a failure at this point. The fulcrum comment was more in reference to bending the lever towards the face, I wasn’t clear on that at all. Multi pass welds on one side of a fillet weld will raise the fulcrum point of the “lever” when bent towards the face because nothing is holding the lever down to the plate. The weld on that fillet weld will handle thousands of pounds of pressure when bent away from the face (face tension) and hundreds if bent towards the face (root tension). The plate uses the weld itself as a fulcrum point when bent towards the face. With no root fusion it becomes trivially easy to break a fillet weld that’s welded on one side.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Looking forward to it! Would you consider including spray arc in discussions? Spray arc would be beneficial in discussions even for those who don't have a machine that does spray.
Thanks for another informative video 👍. I think I have a pretty solid idea of what process and filler to use for most of what I would do. I have a somewhat off topic question, that is how do I know what gauge/thickness metal to use for different projects or how strong each shape/thickness material is for a particular use? For example I built a welding cart as my first project, I used a combination of 2x2x1/8” angle, 16ga 1” square tube, 11ga 2” square tube, 3/4” 1/8 angle, iam sure most of that is overkill for it’s intended use but how do I know for future projects? Do you have a video or link to some kind of a guide for picking materials? Thanks again 👍
So that’s something I have never covered and definitely should. There are charts that cover certain strength aspects of box and round tube, so that you could calculate what wall thickness you need. The problem with these is that is only one detail that might need to be considered. When it comes to engineering most everything people make is over engineered (aka more material and stronger than it needs to be) and over welded (aka more weld than needed). The problem is, to better engineer something you really need to know what the forces are and you need to do calculations to determine what is the minimum required. Modern computer programs can help with that, but for the most part people stick with the “stronger than needed”. Or it breaks and they beef it up lol. When it comes to general use 1/8th material is very strong with decent welds on it. 1/8th wall tube is actually strong enough for roll cages. I use a lot of 1/8th material for general work. I use 1/4 inch or thicker when I need something to handle a lot of weight or take more impact force. .060 or thinner for light duty stuff is common, such as a plant stand or non liability stuff. Edit: one thing I commonly do is look at things already made that are similar to what I want to make, and figure out what was used. That’s a great way to avoid making something excessively heavy via oversized material thickness for the job. It doesn’t take long to get a feel for what you should use. And if it breaks, you know you need to beef it up lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks for the reply, would be great to see you come out with a video on the topic. Yup iam definitely guilty of the over do it mentality lol. When I build my welder cart I looked at the bottle rack on my works Lincoln power MiG 350mp to get an idea of metal gauge lol. Thanks again and have a good one.
Very good video! I have been checking the Rockwell C hardness of different welds on google and found 6013 at 29, 7018 at 37, and 6010 at 66! Does this seem correct for 6010? This would put it up there with hardfacing rods. Also, another question. Is it better to practice with several types of rods or is it better to get pretty good with one before trying another one? I have been practicing with 6010, 6013, 7014, and 7018 and they all behave differently. Thanks.
So 6010 tends to produce harder welds given the same material than 7018. I have been told (but never verified) that the 7018 and 6010 wire rods are identical and the difference in flux is what produces the change in performance. That might sound crazy but it’s entirely plausible since the same thing happens when you weld with mig and use c100 gas vs c25. C100 produces a harder arc with more penetration due to the reaction of the CO2. The downside is a loss in tensile strength over c25 and many other specs despite the same wire being used. I am not sure what the actual hardness of 6010 is but I can tell you welding on pipe it’s often far harder to grind out than 7018. Especially if you long arc it. As far as picking the right rod to use/train with, that’s a hard question, but this should help you. In the “real world” in the US 99% of work that is done with stick is done with either 7018 or 6010. If you can run those two rods you can run 8018-11018, and 7010-8010, which are also used to build stuff. Where 6011/7024/7014 6013, nickel 55, etc come into play is if you “special needs” and are limited to stick only. 6011 works better on thin material than 6010, same with 6013. 7014 and 7024 tend to work well on flat but welds, but aren’t really better than 7018. Nickel and stainless alloys are used for work with specific materials (cast iron, stainless, etc) and they are fine for those uses. When it comes to learning 6013 will be the easiest to learn with and the easiest for people to weld simple flat position welds. However if you have desires to weld things requiring strength or welding in any position, 6013/7014/6011 are not good choices. My thought is the faster a person can get good running 7018 the better. It works so well and has so few draw backs that you can literally use it for 90% of stick welding and switch to 6010-6011 for situations 7018 sucks at (such as filling holes, poor fit up, really terrible material, etc).
@ Thanks for the detailed answer! Based on this, I’ll try to focus practice sessions on 7018 and 6010. And once 6010 is mastered, everything else will be easier!
Appreciate the detailed breakdown! A bit off-topic, but I wanted to ask: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). Could you explain how to move them to Binance?
I have, I did a video on it here: ruclips.net/video/rFkcQnklIOI/видео.htmlsi=YpLqP0cX7RvBAXxh . I didn’t use it on steel, I doubt it would be stronger in the sense it would handle more stress without failing. The big issue with those wires is they need a ton of voltage to operate properly. So much voltage (24 volts) it’s common for many welders to not be able to run it at all. They do make a 309 self shielded wire that would be more suitable for steel use (I tested 308 in the video) but I am sure that too needs a lot of voltage. Stainless steel fillers (in the 308-309 type) tend to exceed 7018-flux core in tensile strength (not in yield generally for 308), but that doesn’t mean the weld will be “stronger” in general use. Normal .035 self shielded flux core that’s a t-11 and not a -gs is going to produce about the strongest welds you can expect from That process on mild steel. The issue with self shielded isn’t so much the weld material strength as it is controlling internal weld defects like porosity. For a fun experiment some time weld a fillet with flux core on 5/16th or thicker material and cut it into 3 pieces. I bet you atleast one of the cuts will have visible porosity. It’s a result of the weld pool solidifying faster than the gas can escape. The solution to this is larger wires and more amperage/heat input. That’s why the practical limit for .035 with perfectly clean welds tends to be a bit over 1/4 inch.
I will be honest, I have never read or seen strength testing with oxy fuel. However I can make some predictions (and will test it in the near future). Common oxy fuel rods (R45 and R60) are less strong than 7018. R45 is universally used only up to 1/4in, and r60 over that. It is possible to weld with er70 wire as well, but the performance is completely different than with say mig. When burning acetylene gas you produce co2 as a by product, which shields the molten weld. This also has an effect on the molten metal. In the case of mig 100% co2 increases penetration at the expense of some tensile strength/ductility. If I had to make a guess I would believe oxy fuel would produce a weld similar to 6011 in strength. It would likely have not very good penetration, but it would likely fuse the root. Where things would get interesting is how much the heat input would affect the actual steel. Mild steel can’t really be heat hardened but the super slow solidification of the oxy fuel weld and high elevated temps might have a significant effect to the steel. Any surface contamination like mill scale could react with the steel causing issues too. At one point oxy fuel was used for welding everything but there is a reason it’s uncommon to be used for welding now lol.
@makingmistakeswithgreg If your shop gets too cold, feel free to try some clean steel. As a side note: When I was in high school, I used coat hangers as my filler material. Other: In my area, IMS has steel cutoffs at 99 cents a pound. In some cases, cheaper than that. Just bought a 2ft × 4ft sheet of 17 Guage (.045 ") out the door, including tax license and dealer prep for under $9.
How would brazing joints compare in strength to welding a joint. Welding sort of looks like using epoxy putty on a joint instead of flowing liquid epoxy into the joint. How strong is the bond of the weld bead to the base metal? When I look at a table of the rod types they list EXXX2, EXXX5, and EXXX6 which I can't seem to find anyone selling. 6012 seems like an interesting rod as it show DC- and AC . 7015 and 7016 have no iron in the coating but look like are about the same as 7018.
So brazing functions under cohesion and welding is a fusion process. With brazing the base material isn’t melted, and the braze itself functions like a glue that doesn’t alloy with the base material. Brazing is incredibly strong for what it is (on thin metal it can often be stronger than the material because the material can’t generate enough force to break it). Brazing on thicker material (or anything that can impart significant force) is far weaker than an actual weld. One of the weird things with brazing is because it functions closer to a glue, making bigger brazes may actually allow the joint to be as strong as a weld. This is especially true on things like chromoly tube bike frames, which often fail in the heat affected zone and not the weld. By brazing them with a much bigger braze and not actually melting any of the tube, it is possible to have a frame that’s as strong as a welded one (if not stronger due to material issues). This becomes completely impractical on many things like thicker steel, 3 inch thick brazes to have the strength of a 3 pass weld is a waste of time and materials. Brazing also will handle shock loads, impact forces, low temps, and vibration significantly different than a weld. A actual weld is a fusion of base material and filler. Because it’s an alloy, the weld itself is often stronger than the base material. In the case of common “mild steel” there is no practical way of making a stronger joint than welding, especially for the size of a weld. Different rods with stick welding produce different strength welds. One of the confusing things with this is everyone is taught 60xx rods are equal in strength and all 70xx rods are equal. However this is simply not the case for two reasons: 1) this doesn’t account for actual test results, 60 and 70 refer to minimum tensile strength and not actual tested strength. 7018 is actually much stronger than 7014 in actual test results. 2) this doesn’t take into account joint configuration, part engineering, surface prep, how the weld is stressed, etc. a great example of this is a tig weld with er70 should be close to strength to 7018. However if you try to weld through contaminates with tig the weld will be full of defects and in practice be far weaker than 7018. Just like a car might be able to run a 11 second quarter mile with a expert driver and perfect conditions, high strength of a weld is as much to do with the skill of the welder, the conditions of the material, and the way the weld is stressed. As far as oddball rods, 6012 is commonly used to weld metal decking down. I have 3 rods of it and never have used it. My understanding is it’s a low penetration rod that’s less likely to have slag inclusions than 6013. Perfect for thinner material. 7016 I have run and t welds very similar to 7018. What you will find it many rods simply weld so similar to common rods that already exist everywhere that there isn’t much use for them. Some countries actually use 7016 and 7018 is impossible to find. Strange how that works sometimes.
So the issue with 6010 root is if you were to do that on steel that is higher strength or on a joint that is under a ton of tension as the weld solidifies, you may end up with what’s called hydrogen embrittlement (hydrogen cracking). 6010 has hydrogen (moisture) in the flux and it winds up into the weld, and the base material. 7018 was created to solve cracking issues that common rods (which had hydrogen in the flux) had on higher strength steel 6010 is commonly used as a root pass on pipe, but that open root beveled plate is a lot different than a highly stressed fillet weld. On normal mild steel fillet weld a 6010 root would give more strength if the plates were welded on one side. The increase in penetration over 7018 would reduce the leverage if the upright plate was bent towards the face of the single sided weld. If the upright plate had a small proper bevel and was welded multi pass with 7018 the results would be stronger than a 6010 root on a unbeveled plate. Generally speaking the strongest stick welds on mild steel you will get are with 7018. The weld will flex much like the mild steel and will hold things together.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks. I was just watching your hood video and trying to decide what to buy. Ive been using the hand held shield that comes with the HF FC welder haha.
Also greg tig is only used in industrial piping and exotic and indoors factory type welding and only on small pipe for the root and a hot fill pass... typically while flux core is used for most insanely thick multipass welds nothing else in industry but good production . And tig for thick welds rarely excess 3-8 thick is often filled with a wire process or stick process for more exotics to deposit more metal faster while mig is used for most applications as the clean up is minimal and production is very high and inside
For welding 3/8” or 1/2” with MIG would it be okay to heavily bevel the upright piece and then use multiple passes of ER70 .035 instead of stick welding with 7018? Other than taking additional time for the multiple passes and down time to cool between passes to minimize warping, what are the downsides? Hobbyists welder here.
Greg has a Video here on this channel that perfectly adresses your question. I would like to say: it depends. The procedure you are asking for is for a 100% fusion weld requested often for building pressure vessels, which is something a home-hobbyist should not take on. Even with the "excessive" bevel you need a pretty decent MIG-machine to gain enough fusion. The downside of stacking so many layers of weld may be very slow progression and/or excessive heat input which could weaken your groundmaterial and lead to bad warping. You can get away with it, but welding with 7018 or even 7016 or a decent MIG-machine that can handle 1,2mm wire and sprayarc would be the better and easier way (Suggestion). Put on a slight bevel and as many atringer beats as it takes ta achieve the proper weld hight. For singlesided welds about 0.7 and for doublesided 0.5 times the diameter of the thinnest parentmaterial.
Sebastianleicht said it perfectly. The issue on a fillet weld is you have two pieces of metal that need to be fused. A bevel on the upright plate will help some fusion to happen into it, but the base plate that’s unbeveled will still have poor fusion. The only proper solution to welding 3/8th or thicker material with wire is with spray or dual shield wire. You need a 220a + welder with atleast 25 volt output to do this. The reason this is an issue is due to how mig works. It’s using a small diameter wire to pass current. It uses high wire feed to hit high current levels. High wire feed without high voltage tends to cause the weld to stack up and not penetrate the root. This is why when you drag with mig on thick plates you get better root fusion, and why when you weld vertical up with mig you get much better fusion. Any molten pool you need to weld through to hit the root will limit penetration. Spray arc has a very strong digging arc via a combination of high amperage (aka high wire feed), high voltage (25+ volts) and most importantly: a specific gas mixture. With those things combined you can get proper welds on thicker plates. Without those things you will have weak welds on thick plates. Stick and tig perform far better on thicker plates than normal short circuit mig.
So that is what the “conventional” wisdom is, the problem is this doesn’t account for poor engineering. A 7018 weld is significantly stronger than mild steel base material, however it can be easily made to fail. 4 good examples of this would be: 1) you welded something made from 1/2in steel and undersized the weld, 2) you only welded one side of a fillet weld and the weld was stressed towards the face. 3) you welded mild steel with a filler that has limited ductility and the mild steel ends up tearing off the weld rather than everything moving together while staying attached (7018 vs 6010). 4) you rely on the weld itself to provide all of the resistance to flexing of a part rather than using a gusset. There are many things that can lead to weld failure (and part failures of something a person welded/repaired) and the actual strength of the weld wasn’t the problem. Case in point, the same size weld and same weld rod was used on 4 different thickness in this video, but the results were different. If that “fillet weld” was a part of something that someone was making it would be by far smarter to put a gusset on the part to avoid weld failure than to just keep adding more weld in attempt to have it hold together.
One of the hardest thing to convince some new welders is that in some instances penetration can be your enemy. That being when welding a very low tensile steel with say 6010 you can end up with a highly diluted weld puddle. That can throw the 60K tensile strength right down the toilet!
Absolutely. The same thing holds true with things like cast iron and even better hard face. Hard face rods need to be diluted as little as possible into the base material. If you go melting a bunch of hard face into steel, the steel will be so weak/brittle you can forget about having any strength. In many cases it’s simply not possible (or desirable) to have a weld that is “as strong as the base material” due to the base materials properties.
I just finished installing a staircase made out of 3\16 steel. We cut and fabbed . The gaps evrywhere when we were welding it together were huge, up to a quarter inch and even more here and there.. Im not a welder and my boss doing the welding was obviously amature at best even to me. I could be completly wrong about this but im really worried about the safety of anyone using these stairs over time.. Seems more like soldering than welding wirh the gaps i saw being filled. I have never welded a thing in my life so im not trying to criticize my boss, hes also my friend, we're a small but busy remodel company, and he is very good at alot of things... Im just worried about this and its bothering me, someone could get hurt if this fails in 5 years.. (edit I think it was TIG, had the spool feeding and 75/25 gas)
That will work really well on some thick steel. Wire processes are awesome on thick steel when you use the right gas and run spray. It’s the home hobby 200amp machines that only hit 23 volts that really limit wire welding.
Confidence built up over time and understanding of what’s going on/what needs to be done is how you tackle jobs with liability. Much like doing brakes on a car for the first time is daunting but after you do a few and don’t have things fall apart you are more confident lol.
As a non American (7018 god rod) it pains me when 6013 rods get roasted. There is such a wide range of 6013, almost deserves a sub category; i can almost guarantee that the 6013 rods available in America are purposely nasty to keep people using 6010 and 7018 🤣 That being said any positional work 7018 is the go, really enjoy 7024 for large fillets and high cell 6013 (murex vodex) for burning through paint and rusted cow shit repairing feeders and what not on the farm. Obviously welding and everything related comes down to application, design and how effective was the weld deposit. Badly designed weld joint will fail even with the strangest rod, well designed will fail equally with a weak rod! Regards from England
6013 definitely gets trashed here in the states due to what 6013 we have. The 6013 here universally runs ok for general flat welds but it tends to have excessive flux/slag inclusions on fillet welds, welds uphill far worse than many rods, and tends to be used mostly in 1.6mm rods for sheet metal. The version of rods you guys have make 6013 useable. Pretty strange how different countries adopt different things. It’s cool to hear you have 7024 rods, I am a big fan of those for flat position butt welds. They tend to have a lot of penetration and a nice bead profile.
@makingmistakeswithgreg in your opinion would 7024 be suitable for welding mild steel onto an excavator boom to reinforce a crack repair? Just thinking I could save time using 7024 but I also can see there could be issues with built up weld tension, hydrogen and distortion. Thanks for the video Greg
@@napsac4816taking in consideration that that boom may be made of S355 steel or higher , I would not necessarily do that, depending on the thickness of the parentmaterial may be preheating will be necessary (please refer to the spec of the steel-manufacturers)
I think i was trying to say that most of the weld repairs and broken equipment is due to poor weld design/engineering than the weld itself. Mostly from er70 wire feeders; spray and pray like 😂
It’s pretty crazy how strong er70 is even with a poor weld, but bad engineering will break anything lol. Where er70 mig gets people in trouble is it’s very easy to make a really nice looking weld that performs poorly. A decent looking 7018 stick weld will perform reliably on thicker steel. On steel 5/16th and thicker a spray and pray mig weld that visually looks good is anybody’s guess as to how bad the root and sidewall fusion is. Combine that with people never checking their work and you have a recipe for failure soup lol.
i love your videos. i just started learning at 27 and you explain this in a way that i can actually understand. So thank you. New favorite welding channel.
Thanks for the kind words. I try to focus on making complex things simpler so everyone can have a better understanding of what’s going on. Luckily you don’t need a PHD or even an associates degree to be able to make decent welds and build really cool stuff. I am sure you will learn fast and be making cool stuff in no time, since you’re already out seeking knowledge to better your skills 😀👍
I'm just amazed how these videos are free for anyone to learn from. The experience and wisdom shows, and it's easy to follow when it's presented calmly with additional info boxes. The bend test showing the strength was great concrete example instead of just saying "trust me on this one".
I am glad you liked the video. I enjoy sharing information and help people better understand things so they can become more skilled 😀. There is a lot of “welding wisdom” that’s wrong, and that’s why I think it’s important to show simple practical tests to give evidence to support my opinion. That’s also why I encourage people to do their own testing, since regardless of what I say someone else can have different results. Although most of the time people have worse results than me 😅.
There is a use-case for every welding technology. It is good for me to listen to the advantages of other welding technologies that I cannot afford and don't wish to buy. I don't really fall into their use-cases. That said, my 110v buzz box with 60xx sticks, with all their limitations, fits my needs very well. I need to think more about the engineering of the piece, the cleanliness of the prep, how to better use all the juice I can out of my little '70s welder, and to practice and improve my welding. Within the limits of whatever machine you have, there is wide scope for improvement and doing the best looking and strongest weld you can. As I cannot weld in the winter, so am batching up all my welding ideas. Thanks, Greg.
Another interesting discussion so far! I look forward to enjoying the rest of the video, but so far, just as excellent as usual. It's becoming a habit for you to upload educational, attention-holding content. Keep on keeping on!
Thanks for the kind words 😀👍
As someone who's trying to learn welding on my own practicing in my garage, this video is very informative. I struggled trying to understand what I can realistically weld based on thickness.
A good way to think of the “big picture” is thin material that’s not highly stressed will likely still hold together with minimal strength weld fillers and some weld defects. Thicker material that sees stress will be far more likely to cause weld failures due to weak welds (be in filler material or defect issues). If what you’re welding sees high vibration/impact forces/stress cycles/extreme heat changes/ or flat out a lot of force, weld defects and weak fillers should be avoided at all costs. Sometimes a poor design will never hold up regardless of the quality of weld, and in such cases reengineering should be looked at to fix the problem. The whole thing sounds complicated (and it can be) but realistically focus on putting down the cleanest welds you can with the right process and with reasonable engineering you won’t likely have failures.
Also, the practical limitations for the processes are accurate as described in the video. I will do a whole video with demonstrations on why those are the case, but for the time being use that as a guide. The upper limit of thickness really comes down to how much amperage the machine has. A 140amp wire welder shouldn’t be used to weld over 3/16th material. A 200a can weld about 1/4 with proper root fusion. A 240a machine can weld up to about 5/16th in the short circuit mode. Above 5/16th spray arc (think super high voltage like 27 volts, 210+ amps, and special gas mixtures) or dual shield (gas shielded flux core wire) should be used. With stick you can make clean welds on thicker steel with 3/32 and 1/8th rods without issue, between 80 and 130 amps. Tig can weld thick material without any issue, at or above about 130a.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thank you, I have a question. I see and hear alot about multipasses they would use 6010 or 6011 as a Root pass and then use 7018 to fill. I understand that 6010/6011 has more penetration but would that effect the weld strength? or does 7018 fill essentially negate this. Why not just use 7018 as a root rod?
I appreciate this coverage without getting buried in metalurgy.
Greg, we welded 8018 cold at the shipyard but we had a 450 F interpass. 11018 required a 200f preheat and a 300f interpass.
Good information as usual! Thanks for sharing! Greg! 👍👌
No problem 😀👍
Yay a post Christmas dose of Greg. BTW you 11018/high strength rod video was fantastic, really informative.
Glad you liked it 😀👍.
back from your 7024 video i bought 50lbs of 5/32 7024 and used most on my last 2 projects. how fast they put down metal, and how easy they restart was fantastic. i got around the flat only by flipping the object around with tractor and chains and welded whatever is facing up. only problem is sometimes tight filets they get wormholes where it dont connect to one side, theres so much puddle slag i couldnt tell when it happens. but there so fast and easy i considered it worth it to just go back with a 6010 and melt the wormholes closed. maybe not ideal but i enjoyed it more than 7018
nicely done Greg, my complements! Happy New Year to you and yours.
Good stuff. I'm using my Christmas break to put together the bed for my skoolie crawler hauler. Figured I'd give my MIG a break and use the Rogue with 7018 to get some good practice in. On another note, my brother in law got me one of those HF titanium welding hoods for Christmas and it's surprisingly clearer than my miller digital elite from ~ 2011.
Thanks, Greg, this was very interesting and done well. There is another YT welder who is trained and experienced who left his pipeliner job to start his own welding business that appears to focus on steel fencing plus other steel tube\pipe projects. On farm fencing, fyi, he uses 80XX series stick rods. I don't want to speak for him, and maybe that's not always the case, but I heard him say it a few times. I'm not trying to impart right or wrong, just sharing what others seem to do who seem (from my noob perspective) to have some knowledge on the subject. Idk maybe he just had a lot of 80XX left laying around from his days of welding thick stuff. For my fencing, and your advice here notwithstanding, I probably would go with 7, but would also probably be fine with 6, as my loads are not anticipated to be large or under harsh freezes, etc.
The ed you offer here is worth $1M, thanks Greg
So I have a lot of thoughts on that. 8010 is basically a higher strength 6010 specifically made for pipe. Using it on fencing and non liability stuff would likely work fine. The problem with 8010 is on practical applications (such as say welding a leaf spring hanger, or building your own trailer) it likely will not be as good as 7018. 7018 can handle impact forces, vibrations, and stress very well. Cellulose rods can be very strong, but they typically are used on things where the stresses are completely different than common things people make. I would almost guarantee you that 7018 will outperform 7010 and 8010 on a vast majority of things a person might make, and will be far better at making repairs. 8010 imparts hydrogen into the weld and that is something you don’t want to do when welding higher strength steel (say stuff on a tractor or loader) due to hydrogen embrittlement.
From a realistic standpoint I would never use 8010 on fences because it costs way more money than cheap common 6010 or 6011, and there is very little to no benefit to using it. If I had a few pallets of it for free no doubt I would use it but it doesn’t make financial sense to buy over cheaper rods.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Wow, that's a lot of deep knowledge there, Greg, thanks for sharing with us!
You got me thinking Greg. I have a project where I’ll need to do fillet welds on 1/4 plate. I was planning on using 6011 for penetration but now I’m thinking 7018 might be better. It will certainly look better.
On 1/4 inch and above I would use 7018. Keep in mind the loss of root penetration means it would be in your best interest to weld both sides of the fillet weld if possible. If what you’re welding is say square tube on a flat plate, the lack of a weld inside the tube isn’t a concern because the tube being fully welded outside prevents the weld from being stressed towards the face. 7018 will fuse the root, it just won’t have much beyond that. If you think that may be an issue it’s best to look at ways to improve that rather than going to 6011.
That was helpful. I could use a chart like you have that shows basic welding types correlated with use and thickness. Couldn’t find one online yet
I made a note to make a nice chart for everyone to download with a bunch of useful info. I will do that soon for sure 👍.
Wow, thanks. I would appreciate that!
Im welding the unibody box frame under my jeep. Ill be cutting the rusted sections out and plating new metal over the area, so Im some what new to welding and useing flux core 030. it is where the controll arm mount to the frame , so its a stress area. Does what this video show apply to plating.dont worry about my feelings , I respect people that know moor than me.
I know the process you’re talking about well, it’s very common in the rust belt up here in the northern states. The most common solution to that issue is flux core. It will produce cleaner welds than short arc mig on sub par material, and it’s far easier than stick. When you plate over things you have the benefit of new clean steel helping to control burn though, and the lap weld that is created is far easier to weld than say a butt weld. If I were you I would practice on the same thickness material same as the weld position and once you can get solid welds on the practice switch to the real frame. Clean/prep the surface as much as possible, and if you make a hole in it wait for it to cool, clean it up, and start welding again. The fewer defects and cleaner the welds are the stronger t will be. Also, you may want to consider .035 wire. .035 tends to have more flux in it and it tends to handle contamination better. I would highly recommend that you buy a quality wire like Hobart fab shield 21b or Lincoln nr211. They tend to weld far better than cheaper options, and they don’t become brittle when they are welded multi pass/thick. Normal -gs spec wire becomes more brittle if you weld multi pass and that can be an issue if strength/impact resistance is required.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for the fast reply , I have been practicing , I will switch to the 035 , thank you.
@makingmistakeswithgreg awesome advice, i appreciate it boss
@@rvmagnum5415 I'm not trying to talk down to you but you said don't worry about hurting your feelings. If you are welding under a car plan ahead for a fire. Little fires are easy to put out if you have a plan.
According to an internet search the heat required for welding steel is between 35 and 65 kjoules per inch. Both the ESAB and Miller phone welding apps state that the short circuit welding process can be used for up to 3/8" steel. The ESAB app states that multiple passes are required. The Miller app does not mention whether multiple passes are required or not. Calculating the watts being used for the ESAB app, gives an upper range of 4305 watts which converts to 4.305 kjoules per second. Something else that popped up on search is "Typical heat input values for controlled heat input welding will tend to be ~1.0-~3.5kJ/mm. Cold cracking is a matter of concern only when heat input is less than 3 kJ/mm. When welding low alloyed steel, the heat input should be approx. 2,5 kJ/mm." Knowing the weld length an estimate of travel speed can be calculated. The heat input within a specific time for a specific size of steel must be the determining factors no matter what the welding process. Short circuit mig is not recommended by anybody for over 3/8" thickness. This must be because it fails on meeting the heat input within a specific time for steel over 3/8". I have seen a RUclips video that stated the proper mig welding technique was to keep the wire at the leading edge of the weld puddle. Could part of the problem with poor fusion with short circuit be that the wire was more in the weld puddle and not at its leading edge? It is a little confusing to me why TIG and stick multiple passes are OK for welding thicker steel which you defined as over 1/4" but not for short circuit mig to reach 3/8" thickness. Perhaps a mention in one of your videos how an estimate of travel speed can be calculated based on a given kjoules per inch? I do like your welding videos and am glad you like to talk because I like to listen.
solid!
When I was running er70-t11 self shielded wire I cut and etched a few welds and all of them had slag in the root. I didn’t really have that with 7018 unless my rod angle was really off. Surprisingly I built like 3 or 4 trailers with self shielded flux core and not one weld failed. Even though I was towing doubles and heavy loads of scrap at the time. Matter of fact the truck bed trailer I have as my banner picture on here was one of those trailers.
What you described is very common with self shielded flux core. Every cut and etch I have done with .035 self shielded flux core on 5/16th or thicker material has had 1-2 pin dots of porosity deep in the weld. The surface often looks spotless yet there is porosity internally. The welds t-11 deposits are incredibly strong, if not a bit brittle. They are definitely stronger than 60xx rods and you probably had more than adequate weld size for the job. Not to mention the welds probably had minimal defects at the surface which likely helped. Depending on how things were welded it’s entirely possible a root with slag wouldn’t be an issue because the material couldn’t bend in a way a weak root would be an issue. Where I find failures with stuff like that is impact force. A lot of guys weld on suspension parts on axles and frames for off road trucks with flux core, and it’s very common for the stuff to hold up to a lot of abuse but fail during a impact.
Awesome video! Do you have any advice on welding bicycle or motorcycle frames? Just having a hard time on settings trying to avoid having the puddle too hot but dont want change so much that I end with a cold weak weld. Thanks and Happy Holidays!
So I won’t sugar coat it, bike frames are probably the toughest situation for welding. The reasons are simple: 1) small round objects are hard to make long welds on. 2) thin material is tough to weld without making holes, 3) sometimes frames are made out of chromoly which although it doesn’t need a preheat (on bike tube thickness that is) it tends to be harder to weld without defects like undercut. I won’t lie, I know I could 100% weld bike frames with tig with perfect welds, mig is actually harder. It might take even me some time to dial in MiG welds.
There are a ton of things you can do to “help” yourself on hard jobs like that. If the material is 1/8th (3.2mm) or thinner I would highly suggest looking at .024 mig wire if you’re mig welding it. The thinner wire allows you to make smaller welds and control blow through better. You must find a way to keep the wire angle consistent. On small tube it’s very easy to drastically change the angle the wire is being fed into the molten puddle, and that’s bad news. You will need to remove your hands/arms significantly to achieve consistent welds. Another major issue is uphill vs downhill. Welding uphill with mig is tough in general because the molten pool is so liquid. On thin stuff uphill welding is almost guaranteed holes with anything short of perfection in settings/movement. Downhill is far easier but it limits penetration and that can be a serious issue.
If I had to tackle bike frames with mig I would practice running beads on the same diameter tube as the frame and once I got good I would weld the frame. I would try to avoid as many starts as possible, lack of fusion often follows a start with mig welding. I would likely weld the tube In 2 welds but if you’re unable 3 is ok, no more than 4. Presumably if you tack weld it together it is in your best interest to grind down the tacks and not just weld over them. You can leave tacks full thickness on the side you’re not welding first (to help prevent them from breaking) but the side you’re welding grind them down. Once welded feather the other side and then weld them. Welding over tacks creates a reduced fusion area around the tack and that’s not good. As far as heat to set things at, you want to set it so that you are achieving some root fusion. If you cut and etch a test joint and have 0 root fusion this is undesirable. Setting it too hot is also undesirable because you can get suck back inside the tube (where the weld pulls the inside of the tube out towards the weld as it solidifies).
I know this is a significant amount of info and things to think of. The truth is if you make clean welds and get things dialed in, the welds should hold up longer than the tube will. Tig is actually the easiest to achieve near perfect welds on such things, that’s why I never spent much time getting good at mig on small bore thin wall pipe. Ta doable but takes practice. I need to do a video on this so I can fail a bunch and dial things in lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg wow, thank you very much! I bought a few tubes with the same diameter and practicing a lot. So far, I can do in 4 steps but planning to reduce to 3.
The frame is 1.25 in diameter with a 1/8in wall. It has another tube inside to connect both sides and add strenght (it is a butt joint). It also requires a few rosette welds.
So, in the end, I'll add a bevel to the frame and the hardtail kit already comes with the inner tube and a bevel on the outside tube, Thickness here might not be an issue with this additional tube. My biggest issue now is getting my puddle too hot (or too big).
Really appreciate if you could do a video about it. There is a lot of info on square tubes, but almost none on round, specially on butt joints.
Thanks again for the detailed reply!
27:43 that is actually backwards. You increase the length of the lever that the weld is holding, and so keeping the moment the same you reduce the force seen by the weld.
I think we both said the same thing. A multi pass weld would hold more of the lever, effectively reducing the lever length that can act on the toe of the weld. Most of the “lever” the weld is holding doesn’t move at all when pressure is applied in the press. The more passes the less of the “lever” moves under significant loading, reducing the lever length. The failure has to more to do with the tension on the face of the weld at the toe line than anything else. Increasing the length of the lever would require less pressure from the press to cause a failure at this point. The fulcrum comment was more in reference to bending the lever towards the face, I wasn’t clear on that at all. Multi pass welds on one side of a fillet weld will raise the fulcrum point of the “lever” when bent towards the face because nothing is holding the lever down to the plate. The weld on that fillet weld will handle thousands of pounds of pressure when bent away from the face (face tension) and hundreds if bent towards the face (root tension). The plate uses the weld itself as a fulcrum point when bent towards the face. With no root fusion it becomes trivially easy to break a fillet weld that’s welded on one side.
The chart was good 👍
Soon I will be doing a whole video on practical demonstrations showing limitations to help out 😀👍
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Looking forward to it! Would you consider including spray arc in discussions? Spray arc would be beneficial in discussions even for those who don't have a machine that does spray.
Good stuff Greg, but can we get better close-ups?
Sir. Root penetration can change brand to brand stickrod. ?
Thanks for another informative video 👍. I think I have a pretty solid idea of what process and filler to use for most of what I would do. I have a somewhat off topic question, that is how do I know what gauge/thickness metal to use for different projects or how strong each shape/thickness material is for a particular use? For example I built a welding cart as my first project, I used a combination of 2x2x1/8” angle, 16ga 1” square tube, 11ga 2” square tube, 3/4” 1/8 angle, iam sure most of that is overkill for it’s intended use but how do I know for future projects? Do you have a video or link to some kind of a guide for picking materials? Thanks again 👍
So that’s something I have never covered and definitely should. There are charts that cover certain strength aspects of box and round tube, so that you could calculate what wall thickness you need. The problem with these is that is only one detail that might need to be considered. When it comes to engineering most everything people make is over engineered (aka more material and stronger than it needs to be) and over welded (aka more weld than needed). The problem is, to better engineer something you really need to know what the forces are and you need to do calculations to determine what is the minimum required. Modern computer programs can help with that, but for the most part people stick with the “stronger than needed”. Or it breaks and they beef it up lol.
When it comes to general use 1/8th material is very strong with decent welds on it. 1/8th wall tube is actually strong enough for roll cages. I use a lot of 1/8th material for general work. I use 1/4 inch or thicker when I need something to handle a lot of weight or take more impact force. .060 or thinner for light duty stuff is common, such as a plant stand or non liability stuff.
Edit: one thing I commonly do is look at things already made that are similar to what I want to make, and figure out what was used. That’s a great way to avoid making something excessively heavy via oversized material thickness for the job. It doesn’t take long to get a feel for what you should use. And if it breaks, you know you need to beef it up lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks for the reply, would be great to see you come out with a video on the topic. Yup iam definitely guilty of the over do it mentality lol. When I build my welder cart I looked at the bottle rack on my works Lincoln power MiG 350mp to get an idea of metal gauge lol. Thanks again and have a good one.
Very good video! I have been checking the Rockwell C hardness of different welds on google and found 6013 at 29, 7018 at 37, and 6010 at 66! Does this seem correct for 6010? This would put it up there with hardfacing rods. Also, another question. Is it better to practice with several types of rods or is it better to get pretty good with one before trying another one? I have been practicing with 6010, 6013, 7014, and 7018 and they all behave differently. Thanks.
So 6010 tends to produce harder welds given the same material than 7018. I have been told (but never verified) that the 7018 and 6010 wire rods are identical and the difference in flux is what produces the change in performance. That might sound crazy but it’s entirely plausible since the same thing happens when you weld with mig and use c100 gas vs c25. C100 produces a harder arc with more penetration due to the reaction of the CO2. The downside is a loss in tensile strength over c25 and many other specs despite the same wire being used. I am not sure what the actual hardness of 6010 is but I can tell you welding on pipe it’s often far harder to grind out than 7018. Especially if you long arc it.
As far as picking the right rod to use/train with, that’s a hard question, but this should help you. In the “real world” in the US 99% of work that is done with stick is done with either 7018 or 6010. If you can run those two rods you can run 8018-11018, and 7010-8010, which are also used to build stuff. Where 6011/7024/7014 6013, nickel 55, etc come into play is if you “special needs” and are limited to stick only. 6011 works better on thin material than 6010, same with 6013. 7014 and 7024 tend to work well on flat but welds, but aren’t really better than 7018. Nickel and stainless alloys are used for work with specific materials (cast iron, stainless, etc) and they are fine for those uses. When it comes to learning 6013 will be the easiest to learn with and the easiest for people to weld simple flat position welds. However if you have desires to weld things requiring strength or welding in any position, 6013/7014/6011 are not good choices. My thought is the faster a person can get good running 7018 the better. It works so well and has so few draw backs that you can literally use it for 90% of stick welding and switch to 6010-6011 for situations 7018 sucks at (such as filling holes, poor fit up, really terrible material, etc).
@ Thanks for the detailed answer! Based on this, I’ll try to focus practice sessions on 7018 and 6010. And once 6010 is mastered, everything else will be easier!
Appreciate the detailed breakdown! A bit off-topic, but I wanted to ask: I have a SafePal wallet with USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). Could you explain how to move them to Binance?
Greg, have you ever ran stainless flux core wire? I'm curious if it's stronger or weaker on mild steel than a regular flux wire like nr211-mp.
I have, I did a video on it here: ruclips.net/video/rFkcQnklIOI/видео.htmlsi=YpLqP0cX7RvBAXxh . I didn’t use it on steel, I doubt it would be stronger in the sense it would handle more stress without failing. The big issue with those wires is they need a ton of voltage to operate properly. So much voltage (24 volts) it’s common for many welders to not be able to run it at all. They do make a 309 self shielded wire that would be more suitable for steel use (I tested 308 in the video) but I am sure that too needs a lot of voltage. Stainless steel fillers (in the 308-309 type) tend to exceed 7018-flux core in tensile strength (not in yield generally for 308), but that doesn’t mean the weld will be “stronger” in general use.
Normal .035 self shielded flux core that’s a t-11 and not a -gs is going to produce about the strongest welds you can expect from That process on mild steel. The issue with self shielded isn’t so much the weld material strength as it is controlling internal weld defects like porosity. For a fun experiment some time weld a fillet with flux core on 5/16th or thicker material and cut it into 3 pieces. I bet you atleast one of the cuts will have visible porosity. It’s a result of the weld pool solidifying faster than the gas can escape. The solution to this is larger wires and more amperage/heat input. That’s why the practical limit for .035 with perfectly clean welds tends to be a bit over 1/4 inch.
@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for thoroughly answering my questions Greg. I will definitely watch the video you linked. Have a happy new year!
How does OXY/ACETYLENE rate for strength vs. thickness?
I will be honest, I have never read or seen strength testing with oxy fuel. However I can make some predictions (and will test it in the near future). Common oxy fuel rods (R45 and R60) are less strong than 7018. R45 is universally used only up to 1/4in, and r60 over that. It is possible to weld with er70 wire as well, but the performance is completely different than with say mig. When burning acetylene gas you produce co2 as a by product, which shields the molten weld. This also has an effect on the molten metal. In the case of mig 100% co2 increases penetration at the expense of some tensile strength/ductility. If I had to make a guess I would believe oxy fuel would produce a weld similar to 6011 in strength. It would likely have not very good penetration, but it would likely fuse the root. Where things would get interesting is how much the heat input would affect the actual steel. Mild steel can’t really be heat hardened but the super slow solidification of the oxy fuel weld and high elevated temps might have a significant effect to the steel. Any surface contamination like mill scale could react with the steel causing issues too. At one point oxy fuel was used for welding everything but there is a reason it’s uncommon to be used for welding now lol.
@makingmistakeswithgreg If your shop gets too cold, feel free to try some clean steel.
As a side note: When I was in high school, I used coat hangers as my filler material.
Other: In my area, IMS has steel cutoffs at 99 cents a pound. In some cases, cheaper than that. Just bought a 2ft × 4ft sheet of 17 Guage (.045 ") out the door, including tax license and dealer prep for under $9.
How would brazing joints compare in strength to welding a joint. Welding sort of looks like using epoxy putty on a joint instead of flowing liquid epoxy into the joint. How strong is the bond of the weld bead to the base metal?
When I look at a table of the rod types they list EXXX2, EXXX5, and EXXX6 which I can't seem to find anyone selling. 6012 seems like an interesting rod as it show DC- and AC . 7015 and 7016 have no iron in the coating but look like are about the same as 7018.
So brazing functions under cohesion and welding is a fusion process. With brazing the base material isn’t melted, and the braze itself functions like a glue that doesn’t alloy with the base material. Brazing is incredibly strong for what it is (on thin metal it can often be stronger than the material because the material can’t generate enough force to break it). Brazing on thicker material (or anything that can impart significant force) is far weaker than an actual weld. One of the weird things with brazing is because it functions closer to a glue, making bigger brazes may actually allow the joint to be as strong as a weld. This is especially true on things like chromoly tube bike frames, which often fail in the heat affected zone and not the weld. By brazing them with a much bigger braze and not actually melting any of the tube, it is possible to have a frame that’s as strong as a welded one (if not stronger due to material issues). This becomes completely impractical on many things like thicker steel, 3 inch thick brazes to have the strength of a 3 pass weld is a waste of time and materials. Brazing also will handle shock loads, impact forces, low temps, and vibration significantly different than a weld. A actual weld is a fusion of base material and filler. Because it’s an alloy, the weld itself is often stronger than the base material. In the case of common “mild steel” there is no practical way of making a stronger joint than welding, especially for the size of a weld.
Different rods with stick welding produce different strength welds. One of the confusing things with this is everyone is taught 60xx rods are equal in strength and all 70xx rods are equal. However this is simply not the case for two reasons: 1) this doesn’t account for actual test results, 60 and 70 refer to minimum tensile strength and not actual tested strength. 7018 is actually much stronger than 7014 in actual test results. 2) this doesn’t take into account joint configuration, part engineering, surface prep, how the weld is stressed, etc. a great example of this is a tig weld with er70 should be close to strength to 7018. However if you try to weld through contaminates with tig the weld will be full of defects and in practice be far weaker than 7018. Just like a car might be able to run a 11 second quarter mile with a expert driver and perfect conditions, high strength of a weld is as much to do with the skill of the welder, the conditions of the material, and the way the weld is stressed.
As far as oddball rods, 6012 is commonly used to weld metal decking down. I have 3 rods of it and never have used it. My understanding is it’s a low penetration rod that’s less likely to have slag inclusions than 6013. Perfect for thinner material. 7016 I have run and t welds very similar to 7018. What you will find it many rods simply weld so similar to common rods that already exist everywhere that there isn’t much use for them. Some countries actually use 7016 and 7018 is impossible to find. Strange how that works sometimes.
Wow!!! That is a lot of Excellent information in your reply. Perhaps worthy of its own video? 😃
If welding a 3/8 plate like you did, would running a 6010 root pass with 2 7018 cover passes be better than just using 7018 for all 3?
So the issue with 6010 root is if you were to do that on steel that is higher strength or on a joint that is under a ton of tension as the weld solidifies, you may end up with what’s called hydrogen embrittlement (hydrogen cracking). 6010 has hydrogen (moisture) in the flux and it winds up into the weld, and the base material. 7018 was created to solve cracking issues that common rods (which had hydrogen in the flux) had on higher strength steel
6010 is commonly used as a root pass on pipe, but that open root beveled plate is a lot different than a highly stressed fillet weld. On normal mild steel fillet weld a 6010 root would give more strength if the plates were welded on one side. The increase in penetration over 7018 would reduce the leverage if the upright plate was bent towards the face of the single sided weld. If the upright plate had a small proper bevel and was welded multi pass with 7018 the results would be stronger than a 6010 root on a unbeveled plate. Generally speaking the strongest stick welds on mild steel you will get are with 7018. The weld will flex much like the mild steel and will hold things together.
Guess what Ì got for Christmas? A welding helmet! Talk about a Christmas miracle 😁
Glad to hear that 😀. May your welds improve with that new hood 😀👍
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks. I was just watching your hood video and trying to decide what to buy. Ive been using the hand held shield that comes with the HF FC welder haha.
Also greg tig is only used in industrial piping and exotic and indoors factory type welding and only on small pipe for the root and a hot fill pass... typically while flux core is used for most insanely thick multipass welds nothing else in industry but good production . And tig for thick welds rarely excess 3-8 thick is often filled with a wire process or stick process for more exotics to deposit more metal faster while mig is used for most applications as the clean up is minimal and production is very high and inside
For welding 3/8” or 1/2” with MIG would it be okay to heavily bevel the upright piece and then use multiple passes of ER70 .035 instead of stick welding with 7018? Other than taking additional time for the multiple passes and down time to cool between passes to minimize warping, what are the downsides? Hobbyists welder here.
Greg has a Video here on this channel that perfectly adresses your question.
I would like to say: it depends. The procedure you are asking for is for a 100% fusion weld requested often for building pressure vessels, which is something a home-hobbyist should not take on. Even with the "excessive" bevel you need a pretty decent MIG-machine to gain enough fusion. The downside of stacking so many layers of weld may be very slow progression and/or excessive heat input which could weaken your groundmaterial and lead to bad warping. You can get away with it, but welding with 7018 or even 7016 or a decent MIG-machine that can handle 1,2mm wire and sprayarc would be the better and easier way (Suggestion). Put on a slight bevel and as many atringer beats as it takes ta achieve the proper weld hight. For singlesided welds about 0.7 and for doublesided 0.5 times the diameter of the thinnest parentmaterial.
Sebastianleicht said it perfectly. The issue on a fillet weld is you have two pieces of metal that need to be fused. A bevel on the upright plate will help some fusion to happen into it, but the base plate that’s unbeveled will still have poor fusion. The only proper solution to welding 3/8th or thicker material with wire is with spray or dual shield wire. You need a 220a + welder with atleast 25 volt output to do this.
The reason this is an issue is due to how mig works. It’s using a small diameter wire to pass current. It uses high wire feed to hit high current levels. High wire feed without high voltage tends to cause the weld to stack up and not penetrate the root. This is why when you drag with mig on thick plates you get better root fusion, and why when you weld vertical up with mig you get much better fusion. Any molten pool you need to weld through to hit the root will limit penetration. Spray arc has a very strong digging arc via a combination of high amperage (aka high wire feed), high voltage (25+ volts) and most importantly: a specific gas mixture. With those things combined you can get proper welds on thicker plates. Without those things you will have weak welds on thick plates. Stick and tig perform far better on thicker plates than normal short circuit mig.
So, for structural stuff, don't you want to end up with a joint that is stronger than the base material?
So that is what the “conventional” wisdom is, the problem is this doesn’t account for poor engineering. A 7018 weld is significantly stronger than mild steel base material, however it can be easily made to fail. 4 good examples of this would be: 1) you welded something made from 1/2in steel and undersized the weld, 2) you only welded one side of a fillet weld and the weld was stressed towards the face. 3) you welded mild steel with a filler that has limited ductility and the mild steel ends up tearing off the weld rather than everything moving together while staying attached (7018 vs 6010). 4) you rely on the weld itself to provide all of the resistance to flexing of a part rather than using a gusset. There are many things that can lead to weld failure (and part failures of something a person welded/repaired) and the actual strength of the weld wasn’t the problem. Case in point, the same size weld and same weld rod was used on 4 different thickness in this video, but the results were different. If that “fillet weld” was a part of something that someone was making it would be by far smarter to put a gusset on the part to avoid weld failure than to just keep adding more weld in attempt to have it hold together.
One of the hardest thing to convince some new welders is that in some instances penetration can be your enemy. That being when welding a very low tensile steel with say 6010 you can end up with a highly diluted weld puddle. That can throw the 60K tensile strength right down the toilet!
Absolutely. The same thing holds true with things like cast iron and even better hard face. Hard face rods need to be diluted as little as possible into the base material. If you go melting a bunch of hard face into steel, the steel will be so weak/brittle you can forget about having any strength. In many cases it’s simply not possible (or desirable) to have a weld that is “as strong as the base material” due to the base materials properties.
I just finished installing a staircase made out of 3\16 steel. We cut and fabbed . The gaps evrywhere when we were welding it together were huge, up to a quarter inch and even more here and there.. Im not a welder and my boss doing the welding was obviously amature at best even to me. I could be completly wrong about this but im really worried about the safety of anyone using these stairs over time.. Seems more like soldering than welding wirh the gaps i saw being filled. I have never welded a thing in my life so im not trying to criticize my boss, hes also my friend, we're a small but busy remodel company, and he is very good at alot of things... Im just worried about this and its bothering me, someone could get hurt if this fails in 5 years.. (edit I think it was TIG, had the spool feeding and 75/25 gas)
You should form a welding class at your work shop.
I just burn er70s6 0.35 toss er 28v plus with 500 plus wire a co2 mix we good 👍
That will work really well on some thick steel. Wire processes are awesome on thick steel when you use the right gas and run spray. It’s the home hobby 200amp machines that only hit 23 volts that really limit wire welding.
I have the privilege of being a hobby / home / project / DIY welder and using MIG like a hot glue gun for steel.
Sometimes, the more you know, the less you want to tackle those "easy" jobs. (Like welding a new hitch to the nose of your flatbed trailer.)
Confidence built up over time and understanding of what’s going on/what needs to be done is how you tackle jobs with liability. Much like doing brakes on a car for the first time is daunting but after you do a few and don’t have things fall apart you are more confident lol.
As a non American (7018 god rod) it pains me when 6013 rods get roasted. There is such a wide range of 6013, almost deserves a sub category; i can almost guarantee that the 6013 rods available in America are purposely nasty to keep people using 6010 and 7018 🤣
That being said any positional work 7018 is the go, really enjoy 7024 for large fillets and high cell 6013 (murex vodex) for burning through paint and rusted cow shit repairing feeders and what not on the farm.
Obviously welding and everything related comes down to application, design and how effective was the weld deposit.
Badly designed weld joint will fail even with the strangest rod, well designed will fail equally with a weak rod!
Regards from England
6013 definitely gets trashed here in the states due to what 6013 we have. The 6013 here universally runs ok for general flat welds but it tends to have excessive flux/slag inclusions on fillet welds, welds uphill far worse than many rods, and tends to be used mostly in 1.6mm rods for sheet metal. The version of rods you guys have make 6013 useable. Pretty strange how different countries adopt different things. It’s cool to hear you have 7024 rods, I am a big fan of those for flat position butt welds. They tend to have a lot of penetration and a nice bead profile.
@makingmistakeswithgreg in your opinion would 7024 be suitable for welding mild steel onto an excavator boom to reinforce a crack repair? Just thinking I could save time using 7024 but I also can see there could be issues with built up weld tension, hydrogen and distortion.
Thanks for the video Greg
@@napsac4816taking in consideration that that boom may be made of S355 steel or higher , I would not necessarily do that, depending on the thickness of the parentmaterial may be preheating will be necessary (please refer to the spec of the steel-manufacturers)
I think i was trying to say that most of the weld repairs and broken equipment is due to poor weld design/engineering than the weld itself. Mostly from er70 wire feeders; spray and pray like 😂
It’s pretty crazy how strong er70 is even with a poor weld, but bad engineering will break anything lol. Where er70 mig gets people in trouble is it’s very easy to make a really nice looking weld that performs poorly. A decent looking 7018 stick weld will perform reliably on thicker steel. On steel 5/16th and thicker a spray and pray mig weld that visually looks good is anybody’s guess as to how bad the root and sidewall fusion is. Combine that with people never checking their work and you have a recipe for failure soup lol.