i agree because it has the audience thinking who's method works better when it comes to dealing with criminals Same with civil war it got you questioning whether the avengers need to be controlled by government or given free reign to do what they want
i am gutted that Dawn of Justice was not like this Snyder fucked up Batman v Superman 3 years of build up and that is what fans were given as a result the Ultimate edition was slightly better but the main fault was the script and Snyder is at fault becuse he authorized that script to be used for the movie i fear for JL this year due to him being the one that directed it
Right? That movie could have been about the debate of revenge vs justice, and where the line is drawn and how we define each. But it was bogged down with just poor pacing. I hope JL is at least a good action movie.
Yep. And when Daredevil called Frank insane at the end, I noticed how both sides are partially right. Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome. That’s precisely what Daredevil does; he has the same people arrested or injured (or killed, in Nobu’s case), and it doesn’t work, yet he continues to do it, expecting a different outcome.
@@That_1_BohemianYeah but we created insanity as a definition. Think about what would actually help civilization. Get rid of the evil "another definition we created" and you'll live an easier life, if that's what you want.
@@ras523sar "when does someone come for you to get justice?" Who desides when someone is evil? And how do you prevent it from being an excuse? Daredevil is right, you cant kill because some "bad" people are redeemable and can/or are good people. It's impossible to know. This version of Frank is emotionally unstable and mentally unhealthy. FURY is a 7 deadly sin for a reason, it doesn't justify your actions.
@@That_1_Bohemiano if someone is shooting old women and the police kill them it's unjustified because the killer might have turned their life around? You're forgetting that in the real world if you attempt to kill someone or hurt them in any way shape or form that you're life is forfeit. If you don't believe that someone who takes lives by force and unjustly has the right to have their life taken by force then you're insane. I guess in you're opinion we should just release all the lifers in prison or release people on death row or all the rapists back into society so that they might try and not harm others by default.
@@hyphen6025 Sometimes that can be good as it fits certain characters as that's what they do but other times, Marvel movies can go WAY over board with that.
@@hyphen6025 There were jokes but they fit the character. Such as Santa Claus joke. Punisher has a very blunt personality so flipping off Daredevil with something so traditional fits him.
@@kaana8421 The Santa line isnt really a joke. Its a saying , comparing hope to a fantasy. A recent MCU joke wouldve been some goofy statement to undercut all the tension.
Well technically this scene is fan service as it is ripped directly from a punisher comic. It's almost an exact replication but yeah this scene is phenomenal and another great scene is the graveyard where Frank and daredevil talk.
This is why I'm kinda excited yet scared of the Daredevil joining the Disney+ Shows because I'm kinda curious how they'll handle this but also nervous if they would ruin it. I'll just hope for the best. It's Marvel after all. Things usually work out sooner or later.
@@musyrifo it’s marvel after all?? Bruh I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to marvel at all. Phase 4 is a joke, literally everything in marvel is a joke. Every piece of dialogue is. Every action scene cuts away to some joke. Plus it’s not hard to see the political agendas / woke aspect.
Jon Bernthal is perfect as “The Punisher” hopefully he’ll be back in future MCU movies, marvel has stated they wanted him and Charlie cox to return their roles.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter Yeah sometimes people just see too much of the bad things than recognising the good things. The world isn't black and white and not everyone who did wrong was bad and redemption was possible in very bad people too. But Frank is also right about it that sometimes it's just too late to fix it and going back. There are people who will never be able to change or becoming better sometimes at the end of an day they just smile and laugh at others even if they are going to die
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter For an example look at batman. A lot of things could have been avoided if he just have got rid of the Joker who definitely can't be fixed.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter What makes vigilantes who won't kill unrealistic isn't that regular people DON'T believe in not killing, even criminals. Obviously most people have that moral fiber. What makes it unrealistic is that yes, lots of people wouldn't believe in killing, but virtually ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE would never feel the need for vengeance against criminals that is required to become a vigilante. Likewise anyone with enough burning vengeance against criminals, would find it also REMARKABLY difficult to not kill the worst of them. So, I don't see ANYONE 'shitting' on DDs convictions. I see people remarking on the serious implausibility of a VIGILANTE who risks his life and serious jail time, to punish criminals, and then also will only punish them so much, and stop before risking their lives. It's more unrealistic than most of what else happens in these shows. That's all.
@@freighttrain7143 respectfully, I've seen many people just outright say that DD is being an immature idiot. His way is obviously less pragmatic, but the reason he believes what he believes and acts the way he acts is super important for his character. I see people dismissing him completely because he doesn't do things Frank's way. I love their dichotomy, and it's not really an argument with an easy answer. I don't think it's inaccurate while going through multiple comments sections to say that people are outright shitting on his convictions. They're free to do so, obviously, it just annoys me to see, and I'm clearly in the minority. I appreciated the comment I replied to because it was one of the few reasonably worded ones I could find. Thanks for the thoughtful response. 🙏
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever.
"Wanna talk about santa claus?" I don't know how they do it so well, but I love the way they manage to make it a serious conversation/debate about whether or not murder can be justified, while also being subtly funny in a way that doesn't feel forced or like the writers were expecting the audience to wet themselves laughing.
Daredevil dropped both "you're insane" and "I'll take you down"... lol all they needed was an instance of swapping "kill" with "destroy" and they'd have the trifecta of classic cartoony hero-villain banters. Any yet hey, to their credit, they still pulled it off!
There’s nothing wrong with something feeling like a comic book at all, these ARE comic book characters after all and some of the best arcs of this show ARE best on comic book storylines here as you can make comic characters sound EXACTLY like real people all the time. No idea on where your coming from when you say but you’re completely wrong to do and say so!
@@Gadget-Walkmen He's not wrong at all. The comic books are obviously a much inferior way of telling stories, the dialogue is not written nearly as well. Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner. Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation, hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted.
@@JustapErson He IS wrong entirely AND you are as well as NOTHING you've said here makes ANY sense at all as there are COUNTLESS comic books that have VASTLY superior style of storytelling when your properly tell a story WITHIN that medium such as Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Batman: Hush, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all WAY better than their live actions and animated film counterparts because of how well the story is told here. You BADLY saying that "tHe cOmIC bOoKs Are ObIVoUsLY a MuCH inFerIoR wAy oF teLlIng StORiEs" is 100% WRONG as NOTHING about comic books are "inFeRioR" in ANY way if you actually bothered to see how fantastic ways stories have been told through mediums. "the dialogue is not written nearly as well." LOL Just no. spoken like someone whose NEVER read a comic as there is countless comic books with phenomenal dialogue that's better than even movies like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ultimate Spider-man, The Killing Joke, Daredevil: Born Again. You have NO idea on what you're talking about at all when you say this nonsense of "tHe dIaLOgue iS nOt WrItTeN nEaRlY aS wElL.", lol just no. The dialogue is written PHENOMENALLY and spectacularly well and done. The Dialogue is written JUST as well if you actually bothered to see how well written they all are. The only thing you've established here is that you've NEVER read a comic book in your life or you completely failed to understand how excellently well done they are for you to be spewing out this nonsense right here entirely in ANY way, that' for certain. "Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner." This scene isn't pulled from ANY specific comic at all and just because it's live action, doesn't mean it's good at all. There are plenty of comic book that are WAY better than it's live action and animated counterparts like The Killing Joke, Watchmen, Batman: Hush, as I've mentioned beforehand and the source material of the comic are WAY better overall in comparison. The "probably clear winner" is whatever is done RIGHT within it's own medium correctly as there is such thing as a BAD adaption, which you fail to notice here whenever you say anything here at all. "Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation," There is no "cLeArLy hErE" AT ALL as all it matters is WHAT the context is for one to be better than the other in the SPECIFIC situation you're talking about here. Inspiration and adaption can ONLY be as good as whatever they're doing within their own medium, that's it. "hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted." Obviously whatever Marvel does is inspired by comics than directly adapting any specific storyline EXACTLY as it was but like I said, Marvel does a excellent job at doing what they do through inspiration from what's been done in THEIR specific context, just like other Cinematic Universes should do so as well. In other cases, adapted stories can be done FANTASTICALLY well from adaption of any comic storyline and it can be just as amazing as any inspired by storyline, like I said, it all depends on what's been done on a case by case scenario which you don't get AT ALL here in the slightest.
this is why I need MCU to dive into street level stuff way more, outside of someone like Spider-Man you wouldn't get this type of dialogue with the Avengers or anyone else lmaoo
@@storm5ds68 i mean all of their villains are crazy psychopaths' to a being out of this world, for the avengers, yeah you try to do "humanely talk" to Thor go ahead, like the only normal convo of the avengers is Stark and Rogers ramble in Age of Ultron while their breaking logs at Clints house.
@@storm5ds68 the avengers aren’t like this in the comics, they deal with people who constantly try to do something to the planet or the universe. You can’t always just sit down and have a philosophical argument with someone when they have an army trying to kill people.
One underrated thing in this scene that also should be worth mentioning is how Frank is not trying to convince Matt but make Matt UNDERSTAND his reasons. He even tells him that “I’m not a bad guy red”. The problem is the trauma Frank holds onto mixed with the fact he isn’t necessarily FULLY wrong about the ideals of criminals and how easy it is for them to get out and to strike again. It’s just the way he handles it.
@@johnLennon255 ehhh, not much. to understand is to realise the place where which the opinion falls from. to convince to change the actions based off what is said
@@johnLennon255no, kinda like with Thanos in Infinity War. We understand why Thanos believes that he need to wipe out half the life in the universe. But do you agree with what he's doing? Kinda like that. Understand his motives but don't agree with them.
"You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear, but what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid?" - Red Hood
Why is it that I get the feeling that Batman just wants to play cat and mouse with criminals? Like he just throws them in prison knowing they'll go back and boom, he's got another game night again to satisfy his desires to take them out. Damn the victims of these criminals, the bat wants to play.
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x more like batman trying to fix the system by the book with his only friend Jim in a f*cked up city. Both of them trust each other to the core and know both of them won't crack. If they did that means they lost the self righteousness to protect the city. He know murder is a crime that is the end and non redeemable. Plus batman is a detective not an executioner. If he wants to play the cat and mouse, he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good.
@@carenthusiasm345 "he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good." *Joker exists*
Yknow, something tells me that Frank, even as The Punisher is still a Soldier longing for death after the shit he'd been through, at least that's what I got from that line... it's kinda sad...
not everyone is capable of redemption, but some people are. If someone kills your family etc, and you kill that person, personally I wouldnt blame you for it (even though you probably... shouldnt..) But that doesnt mean that objectively that person is incapable of becoming better, or that that person didnt have a reason to do what they did. Even if it's just that they were paid to do it, as disgusting as that might be. Or in Frank's case, if your family just got in the way of a gang fight (which he thinks is what happened). There's no way that out of the lets say 100 people Punisher kills, every single one of them is an evil rotten bastard down to their core, even if one out of 100 of them really is. You can't know that if you were under the same circumstances you wouldnt have been a criminal yourself. You cant know what lead them down that path, or what they would do if they were given a way out. It's not like he's exclusively going after the big crime bosses either, everyone is fair game to him. Of course in a life or death situation you dont have time to contemplate everyone's sob story, but the Punisher basically goes out of his way to kill people and he's proud of it too.
While that's possible that redemption can occur you have to remember that they stole someone else's life and opportunities to grow. They aren't more worthy of life than the people they killed. Even if they could change they forfeit that chance when they steal it from others. If you kill an innocent you don't deserve the second chance you didn't give them. It's not just about killing. There will always be a difference between killing an innocent person and an evil person.
92Beyo I gotta disagree with you. I think Matt's argument was kind of ridiculous. About hope and light in ppl. You're not gonna change Frank's mind with any type of spiritual shit lol. But I guess it depends on your point of view.
The way they make their characters sound like they’re actually having an argument instead of repeating memorized lines is amazing. Two amazing, severely underrated actors
You're so godamn right. Even with all the publicity they've gotten in recent years - Bernthal in Punisher, Walking Dead, Shot Caller, The Unforgivable and Charlie Cox in Daredevil, Theory of Everything, Legacy... Even with all of that, these guys are so fucking criminally underrated it's ridiculous. One thing Marvel Netflix did impossibly well, better than pretty much any other superhero franchising - the casting.
@@alexwyckoff8962 Marvel has some insane luck with casting, Im telling ya. Their casting department should be set for life from Disney, their work is that good. The entire first avengers cast, Tom Holland, Charlie Cox, John Bernthal, Vincent D'Onofrio, the entire Gaurdians of the Galaxy crew, both 1 and 2, etc.
Holy crap. Writers who obviously understand the characters and who have read the source material were behind this scene. Sad that Disney has abandoned that approach with their current crop of shows.
LOL that's 100% NOT true at all as Disney writers CAN be this good as This show was made and written UNDER Disney. You do realize this WAS a disney show FOR netflix, right? And disney writers in general everywhere CAN learn and do good to do better completely and entirely for their shows as they've stated they're going to learn from what they've done to do BETTER than before.
@@Gadget-Walkmen Yeah, but people in comment sections have this insatiable need to be walking cliches and one of them involves saying "Disney bad" so they'll never admit that fact just because it contradicts their agenda and complaints even though they're still gonna watch whatever disney comes out with.
@@disturbedrenegade9815 basically yeah, Disney haters are the worst when they act like this and not realize this show came out UNDER Disney. I have no doubt disney plus is gonna make a great show for Daredevil completely!
I know right? It's like the director just said. Okay daredevil defend this opinion and punisher defend the other, after about 2 minutes and 50 seconds punch daredevil.
I believe the director told them that the scene had to flow in the most natural way possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Cox and Bernthal improvised their lines.
@@hkp7240 he had a protection artifact that made the stare not work the stare would have worked if not bc of said artifact wich was a feather from an angel way,still frank has guilt..his family he blames himself for their death
The most human exchange between the hero & the anti-hero that you will ever watch, see, witness or encounter. Take your pick. This was so spot on. You have to appreciate it no matter what. It doesn’t get more real than this.
To be honest, I'd be with the Punisher on this one, because do you know what question I would ask Daredevil? How long do innocent people have to grieve and fear for themselves and their loved ones while you wait for evil men to find redemption?
I REALLY like how the Punisher can't look Daredevil in the eye in all of this. Knowing he is blind, he freely makes it show that he doesn't feel justified with his body language. He moves around, does other things, and even when sitting in front of him, he looks side to side instead of looking straight at him. I LOVE that.
@@the8u9 he kinda does the same thing in walking dead and wolf of wall street where he looks off to the side when he's annoyed at someone. He probably does the same thing in real life lol
"What happens the day someone decides you deserve it?" "Tell you what, they better not miss." The fantastic discussion aside, this line always cracked me up.
He is self-aware, he knows that he has done some bad shit, torture, killing innocents especially during his stint in Kandahar, and he blames himself for the death of his family. Ultimately, he believes that he deserves to be punished as well and to be put down. But until that day comes, he is gonna take all the beatings the world gonna give him, and kill all the degenerates on his way to his own demise.
My favorite part is how it actually sounds like 2 people talking like you can actually imagine people having this argument. The writing and the actors portraying it. Perfection
The way when they talk over each other while arguing yet you can still hear them because the actors delivered their lines and gave each other room to be heard. Just wow
Afflicted15 Both metaphorically and literally. Matt is blind literally, but also does not see that some people are beyond redemption, while Frank is a veteran literally, but also has experience in seeing that pure evil exists, and that evil will never change
We kind of got a scene similar to this whenever Tony and Steve talked about the sokovia accords. The idea of being under the governments surveillance and being independent
+Max Frankow enlisted men spend a lot of time answering questions lazer quick to sgts. If you spend a few years doing something consistently you would become good at it.
That's because he's right, evil people don't deserve the slightest sympathy. They prey on the weak and people like Frank (i.e. the police,military,and sheepdog civillians) prey on them.
What I love most about this scene is that it reflects the conversation Matt and Foggy had in the first season but while those two were discussing the dangers of vigilantism Frank and Matt are here discussing the principles and morality behind it
@@DoctorDewgong average goody two shoes daredevil thinking things in life are like in tv shows that everyone can be fixed,hope? lol ask about hope to the victims of criminals the only hope u gonna get is for the criminals to pay one way or another
@@matheuscruz8574 if I remember correctly Frank said it first in the Punisher meets Daredevil comic a while back by Frank Miller. I don't know the source so you'd have to look it up.
Yeah basically except Batman will find many other ways and methods to take down criminals outside of killing them that some will call questionable, like in Batman TAS where a criminal was barely hanging for his life and begged Batman & Robin for help, but Batman refused until he got the information he wanted even coldly stating “we’re not the police.” Batman & Daredevil have a strong moral code against taking lives but the difference is Batman wouldn’t mind breaking every bone in a criminals body to achieve his mission, while Daredevil will only get brutal against crime if the situation gets crazy, otherwise he’ll mostly just try to knock criminals out quickly and will only resort to actual pain when it comes to interrogation.
Kind of yeah, Daredevil is religous and that guides his view of taking life while Batmans is guided by his parents death causing him to never want to see another person die like that. Frank is a lot more brutal than redhood, redhood would use fear to keep criminals in line the punisher would just kill them
Alex USTP I’m glad that I wasn’t the only person that seen how The Punisher versus Daredevil debate is similar to how people that support death penalty versus the people that are against the death penalty.
If it was your love one depends on your believe cause some want them forever in jail and some want them dead it should be left to the victims families if they live or die
@@toniotrussardi8126 jail time isn't supposed to fix them it's supposed to remove people from society who are a danger to society. Your solution is to just kill??
So did Daredevil whose father was murdered and he lost his eyesight. That didn't make him bitter. He saw the difference between vengeance and justice and chose to do the right thing. If he wanted, he could be far more deadlier than Punisher. Would have brought the entire mob and mafia of New York to their knees single handedly but he chose not to.
@@MrMadhusudhan45 totally different. Matt's dad died when he was blind and he was a kid. Still innocent. Frank was already a grown man in the military and had his family brutally murdered in front of him.
Let's check out more comics information: • Elektra died in front of him and thar didn't made him bitter (ok, just a little, but he didn't turned into a Punisher) • Karen died in front of him • Foggy "died" in front of him • Blindspot (he is like a son to DD) was blinded by a serial killer in "front" of him (he hearded everything) • Milla Donovan got crazy little by little in front of him • Heather Glenn committed suicide after a phone call with him • His personal life was literally destroyed on Born Again • He broke up with Kirsten McDuffie on a terrible way • He was possessed by a demon and had to "kill" himself for stopping him All of this and much more are daredevil's life tragedies, and he never turned up to what Frank is. Daredevil is a character *made* for being destroyed and *always* get up. That's the main difference about Daredevil and Punisher: Red gets up, Frank stays down.
this scene still feel so organic. i really feel like the director just told them to defend their side and just go at it for a bit. Stumbling over words, talking over each other, the yelling at certain points,, feels totally natural
@@tauhid9983 It was a Punisher line in one of his early appearances from the 80s (in a Frank Miller Daredevil comic), then a Joker line, then a Punisher line again.
@@geoffreysorkin5774 shit I didn't know. I doubt alan moore copied it from frank miller or anything lol. But I guess that's the running theme with bad guys eh? lol
Frank: I'm a better father than you! Matt: What? Frank: You got a broken woman, a weak boy, look around and see what you've caused Matt: Now hang on a second
@@ArtoriasTheRock daredevil is already breaking the law just by being a vigilante for that matter so him talking about court and jury is hypocrisy. The thing is, if you are gonna take justice upon yourself, you better finish what you started for the corrupted authorities will not put them in place
Their ideologies were explained perfectly in this scene: Daredevil believes that every human being, no matter how deplorable, still have some good in them, and thus should not be killed. The Punisher believes that the people he puts down have no good left in them, and thus are not worth letting live. This is why Daredevil is one of the best shows i've ever watched.
Maybe him and Spider-Man could meet each other and they have similar argument. I mean DD and Spider-Man have the similar ideologies that go against Punisher’s
Even though i fcking dig Jon Berntal as a Punisher, deep in my heart I don't wish to see him ruined by Disney. They have no guts to make Punisher with the same rating as Netflix did. All we gonna get , is movie for kids and Chinese with 12+rate. Mark my words when they gonna ruin Daredevil. Scene from Spiderman already confirmed my concerns, it's all about fun now and nothing serious. Hawkeye , in the meantime ruined Wilson Fisk already . Scene looks like some avengers movie (explosion near character, throwback for 15 meters and hit by a car and not a single drop of blood, like nothing even happened to him) that's a Circus. P.S: even Jon Bernthal said he won't return as a Punisher unless Disney willing to make changes in ratings. He don't wana ruin his character.
@boobie maniac Only if Disney would give back filming rights to Netflix, otherwise it's gonna be horsesh.t, and Berntal knows it as a fun of Punisher character so he will not take part of ruining it.
I'm with Frank on this. Because heroes like Daredevil, Batman, Spider-Man, all the heroes who refuse to kill because they believe a person can be redeemed, are always making an implicit moral calculation when they say that, and it's that the potential good in an evil person is worth sacrificing the actual good in all the innocent victims they hurt. And I think that's a terrible moral position to take. If the point of being a hero is to make the world a better place filled with goodness, then it only makes sense to get rid of the people who snuff that goodness out, even if a tiny bit of goodness can be found in them.
@@nobody-fp5is It's really no different than what we and every other society has done throughout human history. That's why the counterargument makes no sense. The history of humanity is a history of governmental bodies defining the boundaries of morality, deciding who is deserving of punishment/death or not. For thousands of years, the decisions delivered by these governing authorities were about as arbitrary as any rogue vigilante, only compounded and legitimized by the overbearing power of the state. Even in the modern world, we haven't really come that far. Our so-called justice systems are only distinguished by virtue of the number of people (jurors) who get to decide on a person's fate, and judges who have to abide by specific punishments regulated by, again, an overbearing authoritative governmental institution. All of these are just as arbitrary as what Frank Castle does, and the way we do things is no more accurate or fool-proof than what Castle does, regardless of how much we like to pretend that it is. Innocent people get sentenced to death row or life in prison in our justice system all the time, and guilty people go free all the time. Perhaps juries and courts are slightly better at not making these kinds of mistakes than vigilantes would be, but I'm willing to bet that they aren't that much better. And even then, the actual punishments meted out to criminals are completely arbitrary, the decision of any jury no matter how seemingly unprejudiced is going to be colored to some degree by bias, and judges are likewise biased regardless of how much we think otherwise. This idea that a liberal judicial system is a more functional alternative to vigilante justice is a joke, and society believes it because it's only marginally true and it makes people feel more secure. You could argue that vigilante justice is often excessive in its retribution, and I can agree to that. On the other hand, the criminal justice system is often not nearly hard enough on big-time criminals, and also too hard on people who have committed very trivial offenses. The only reason that a justice system is preferable to vigilante justice is because it keeps society stable and orderly, and it makes people feel comfortable with the state of things.
There's one major problem with that view though: What if you get it wrong? I'm sure you've heard the stories about innocent bystanders in active shootings who took down the shooter only to get shot dead when the cops arrive on the scene. The cops' actions in that moment make sense, they're showing up to a shooting gallery and when they arrive they find a bunch of dead bodies and a guy with a gun in his hand but when they unload on him they're killing an innocent man.
@@bagser1 Juries and judges get things wrong too. Plenty of innocent victims have gone to prison for life or death row through juridical incompetence or malpractice, or through pure jury bias. Whether it's one lone vigilante or a court full of people, you can't escape bias and human error. The justice system doesn't make the "what if you're wrong" problem go away.
It’s really a question of morality most of the time for people the logical choice would be just to kill said villain like the joker etc but at the same time if you kill every bad guy that comes what’s the difference between you and them.Killing someone is still. A sin whether if they deserved it or not
@@awesomerad6022 No, it doesn't make us the same. I really hate when people say that. It's one of the dumbest, most morally inept statements probably ever made. No, killing somebody who likes to murder innocent people or rpe people or do any other heinous crime, DOES NOT make us the same as them. You know why? Because the people we'd be killing aren't innocent. When you say shit like that, what you're actually doing is morally equating people like the Joker to the people he kills, which is a morally reprehensible and nonsensical thing to say. There are already millions of ways that "we" are better than "them." If killing was the only thing that separated "us" from "them", then you're basically saying that everyone is already a monster and no one is good.
Everyone pointing out how the dialogue sounds like an actual conversation proves that A. Both actors are incredible and B. That whoever wrote the dialogue is a fucking artist at their work
"You ever doubt yourself Frank? "Not even for a second" This is what I love about The Punisher. He feels no remorse for what he did. His sense of justice overwhelms his conscience. Nothing can stop him once he decides someone should die. EDIT: I’m not saying I 100% agree with Punisher’s beliefs. What I admire most about him is that he never doubts himself. Most heroes would feel conflicted about their choices, but not him. He never goes back on his word except for a really compelling reason (like the time he nearly killed John Pilgrim but ultimately decided against it).
I think that the Penance Stare makes u feel whatever your “victims” felt when you hurted/killed them I think that it doesnt work on Frank because he doesnt feel remorse, And if he was a “Bad” guy he would feel like everything bad that happens to him is deserved He doesnt feel guilty for his actions, He actually believes that everyone he killed deserved it, And if he “feels” their pain, He doesnt care, For him they are scum on the earth that doesnt deserve to live
The Penance Stare's power and judgement depends on how much the Rider wants to punish the sinner and its more than possible Ghost Rider allowed Frank to live as the only difference between them was Frank wasn't supernaturally powered. He was merely shocked that all the people Frank killed were evil and that he doesn't regret killing anyone as most people would even if they were evil.
I love how much of an emphasis the show gave to daredevils ideals of not taking a human life. The expression, the desparation in his voice to make punisher understand was immense in this scene
I honestly agree with Frank’s argument a lot. Some deserve redemption, but most, even if a traumatic run in with one of them were to happen, they’d chalk it up to “I’m lucky, but I’m gonna keep doing my own thing”
Frank kills those who specifically have had multiple chances to change and chose not to. You never hear of punisher murdering a 1st time offender snatching a purse from an old lady. He kills serial rapists, murderers, and kidnappers. He goes for the lowest society has to offer and DD sees everyone as a first time offender in his eyes so he alwayse thinks another chance is an option. For these types of human beings, they gave up that chance a long before they ran into him or the Punisher. Even the justice system itself agrees with Frank to a degree, as some crimes can literally earn you a lawful death as punishment.
@@qualicumjack3906No he isn't. There are a good amount of criminals who change their ways and become good, functioning members of society. This has been the case billions of times throughout Human history. However, not all criminals are like this. So both Frank AND Matt are right, and they're both wrong. And that's the point. Neither has a perfect argument and they're both extremely flawed
@Avenging Demon no. Its very subjective. There is no right answer. Every case with different scenarios need to be looked at carefully, and then make a fair decision to both parties. But us humans are too impatient for that, so we decide the easier one, hence the law system.
@@lex_rodriguez why? Every person he kills is irredeemable, and they are sick murderers, rapists freaks. Some people deserve to die for their sins, often because they're too numerous to count. You probably live life hoping the best of people, and that's nice, I wish I could. But I can't, I've seen the shittyness of people and how they won't change. I don't think all criminals should die and I don't think all murderers should die, so do end up repenting and feeling regret and sadness at what they did. But then there are the ones who take pride in it, they deserve nothing
Metalhead2968 4 Life That’s the thing. You agree with killing but also oppose the thought of killing. That’s why this debate is subjective. There is no correct answer. You can’t have the idea of: Kill this guy because, don’t kill this guy because. They have both killed, thus both deserve punishment. Also, nearly 7/10 of humans on this doomed planet is shitty. Only on a rare occasion will you meet a genuinely kind person. Stay safe during this pandemic my good sir.
That's my favorite part too. He gets hoarse . I think because he's not talking about other men. He's talking about himself too. He wants redemption for himself as well.
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever
Theyre both wrong. You dont give a man a second chance to kill you and your children and you dont kill him either. You kneecap him or cut of his hands or eliminate his ability to be a threat. You make it so he cant do it again. Killing is unnecessary most of the time. You get the same results by making so they simply cant do it again but are still alive to think about it. Bullet in the knew. Dislocate his joints so hell be lucky to ever regain feeling. Shatter his legs. Cut off his primary hand. Take out his eyes, etc. Ironic punishment or poetic justice. You decide
@@cinereous9214 He still fucking died, regenerating doesn't change the fact that he killed. He knew he would die, his enemy healing doesn't change his actions.
@@cinereous9214 the outlaw king has a point there comes a time where it comes down to the crunch sometimes its the best thing you can do for a human being
@@theoutlawking9123 There's a lot of distance between kicking someone off a roof in a fight to save someone and going on a crusade where you leave no enemies alive like Frank.
I don’t know how is the situation in North America but as someone who was born in Latin America I can’t help being on Punisher side. I mean there have being cases of a thug head shooting a 8 years old child just for fun and being released one week after being caught. That’s why a lot of people of my generation studied and worked their asses of to literally ran away to other continents so we can start a new life. Growing up in places like this makes you lacks of hope.
I can relate, I've lived around gang violence in Puerto Rico. The bastards go to jail and when the come out they do the same shit again. They're animals.
i grew up in africa and i also 100% agree with punisher, ''rehabilitation'' in general is a very privileged thing imo that can only work in places like norway, there is no rehabilitating the ppl i grew up around...
I watched daredevil about 2 years ago after I watched this video of their "argument". To all the people who are saying punisher is right(or they side with the punisher) When you see the outcome of their ideologies and you realise how much daredevil is holding inside of him you are gonna have mad respect for him!
Daredevil doesn’t even know how many people he has killed. Many of the goons he punches, kicks in the head & throws down stairs could have died later. He doesn’t know.
While there are those that have changed, what about those that can't change their ways? Daredevil sees good in all people, which is absolutely fucking retarded. While there are those that have a POSSIBLY of changing, his logic risks innocent people's live all because of Daredevil's stupid ideology to get murdered, raped etc. While Punisher's way makes sure that no innocent person get hurt by putting down criminals that deserve to die in his point of view.
Acute Cloudd yeah SOME people really can change... but how about some that unable to? how many victim has to suffer from them before they finally change?
+Thossaphorn Asawachinachot One thing that can then complicate things even further is that if one builds a culture, where the common mindset is “once a bad guy, always a bad guy”, then this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy that increases the amount of irredeemable monsters in society, the very thing which is often provided as proof that Punisher’s methods are needed in the first place. (a bunch of extra thoughts below): If a person has done something horrible in the past, but still feels a grain of genuine guilt and conflict, then being surrounded by people who basically voice the message of “men like you can never change” is not going to help him. If anything, that might convince him even further that he cannot change, making it even more likely that he will not even try to get off of his current path. In those hypothetical cases, then that could still increase the amount of people he/she hurts before being caught/killed. Similarly, Punisher definitely has an important point when he says that the justice system is screwed up, sick with corruption, and/or inept. But at the same time, if everyone believes as he does that becoming a vigilante who executes criminals is the only choice left, then that only increases the chances of us having a future where nobody even tries to fix our justice system. In short, the justice system might become broken beyond repair, but possibly only because everyone treats it as such. It is kind of like Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein”, with the one difference being that it involves a man/system who actually is somewhat of a monster having its destiny of becoming an even worse monster (or at least not turning good) further sealed, whereas Frankenstein’s creature actually was innocent and child-like, only to have its fate of growing into a monster be sealed by society treating him as one. I can sympathize with both of their points of view. I think what sums up the differences between Punisher and Daredevil’s mindsets is that Daredevil is willing to take a risk, for better or worse, in hopes that the door for a better society/humanity can be opened. Punisher is convinced that it is not possible for society/humanity to get much better, so he does what he feels will at least guarantee that it cannot get worse than it already is.
Acute Cloudd No, Punisher can be right. In the real world if the cops tell you surrender you do so or get shot. Matt has a point that they should *try* to bring criminals to justice, but it’s foolish to say no killing them no matter what. Sometimes it’s them or some innocent family.
why couldnt Batman v Superman have been like this as well i am a marvel and DC fan but i felt let down by DOJ tbh the ultimate edition was a bit better but i ultimately believe Zack Snyder fucked it up because it is him who has final say on the script and i still fear for JL this year with him directing it
I wished Season 2 was more like this. While I loved Elektra, her and The Hand took the spot light away from Punisher. I cared way more for Frank's revenge and his arguments with Matt than The Hand's master plan (which was underwhelming in Defenders)
I would definitely side with Punisher on this one. The problem for fighting for Truth and Justice in the world of superhero is that the battle never ends. The hero brings the villain to jail only for the villain to go out and cause chaos once again. I think Joker from Injustice 1 said it well. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah, but the problem is that Punisher's methods can also end up killing innocents or create more criminals who may end up taking the place of the guys he killed. (Like a never ending cycle)
@@anjaneyasreetrout2444 sorry for the late reply just got back home from work. That is true IF there is anyone from that world that can replace the bad guys. Honestly the no-kill rule is for superheroes who are either naive or just won't see they're error. In a crossover between Marvel and DC when Punisher was about to kill the Joker, Batman arrived and just allows him to run away. In my opinion the Cons far outweighs the Pros. While people will call anti-heroes psychopaths, murderers, or among other thing. They do what no other heroes could never do. End the War between villains and heroes. Of course that is if anyone who has the guts to step up on the big table and took his/her place. Then good luck.
@@arkhamknight9001 I get your perspective, but if we’re talking about the Punisher specifically, he literally at the end of this very episode, destroys the biker gang’s bikes at the bar across the street, inciting them into charging the apartment complex full of innocents, all just to escape Daredevil who was kicking his ass. And who has to save the day? Daredevil
I think this season could’ve been perfection if they took out everything surrounding The Hand and just focused on DD and Punisher along with their moral clash
i went back to watch daredevil just for the punisher scenes, literally skipped over everything with the hand i didnt care lol punisher just meshes perfectly in this season
"You hit 'em and they get back up. I hit 'em and they stay down." reminds me of a line Batman says in Batman v Superman, "Criminals are like weeds, Alfred; pull one up, another grows in its place." If you put one in jail, they'll break out. If you kill one, another one will take its place. Its a never ending battle, so whichever way you choose to do it, you'd still be making the world a safer place.
Yeah. I'm on Punisher on this that's the problem about fighting for Truth and Justice in the superhero world. The battle never ends. It's an unending game of cat and mouse with the hero bringing the villain to prison only for them to get out do the same thing again. Joker probably said it well in Injustice: God's Among Us. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah but you need both kinds of people. The truth is, some people can be redeemed. And that's worth it. But the number of people who are willing to do the redeeming is very small. Most people don't care about others problems. They don't believe in forgiveness. You screw up once? Your done. You had one chance and you blew it. You're beyond redemption. Most people feel that way. It takes an incredible amount of character and willpower to be the one who gives others a second chance. The problem with this philosophical debate from a superhero perspective though is that the superheros never actually do anything to help those they fight to actually become better. So the idea of killing the villain makes more sense. That's why I loved animated justice league. The scene with flash and the "villain" who was off his meds while drinking in the bar was perfect.
I agree more with Punisher in this case. Daredevil is more a reactive force to protect the innocent while Punisher is proactive in removing the threats.
Ha, funny. Frank reacts most if not all the time, he doesn't seek people before they do something. They got Franks attention after they've done something. Frank is a murderer and that's about it.
This argument has to be ONE OF the overall best dialogues in recent TV history. Excellently written, realistically delivered by DD and Punisher, containing the perfect "push and pull", tension and release..... Pure freaking gold.
For me i think they're both right. The problem is that they're both too absolute. Frank thinks all criminals deserve death. But some can have redemption. While matt says that they can be redeemed some people don't really deserve to breath. They're points both have flaws,which is why they are both right yet wrong at the same time
@Aaron Neville Jessica Jones has no morality but whatever she personally feels. She treats some criminals like scimbags and others like victims, based purely on how much she identifies with them.
In my opinion if comic books were real then daredevils way is more easier but this is reality and in reality u gotta make the hard choice that punisher makes
@@darrenwalsh5030 Exactly.That's the way it's always been in the comics,too. You can have The Punisher and Groot,Howard The Duck and Squirrel Girl and so on and so forth all exist in the same universe. I love that about comics,that you can have all of these different kinds of characters all co-exist in the same universe.
![Punisher Prison Fight Scene | Daredevil (2x9) [HD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/d2M5ObsKw4Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![Punisher Prison Fight Scene | Daredevil (2x9) [HD]](/img/tr.png)
This is one of the best philosophical debates in television history.
i agree because it has the audience thinking who's method works better when it comes to dealing with criminals
Same with civil war it got you questioning whether the avengers need to be controlled by government or given free reign to do what they want
It's also cool because they get to the core of each argument, and attack both head on.
i am gutted that Dawn of Justice was not like this Snyder fucked up Batman v Superman 3 years of build up and that is what fans were given as a result the Ultimate edition was slightly better but the main fault was the script and Snyder is at fault becuse he authorized that script to be used for the movie i fear for JL this year due to him being the one that directed it
Right? That movie could have been about the debate of revenge vs justice, and where the line is drawn and how we define each. But it was bogged down with just poor pacing.
I hope JL is at least a good action movie.
That's why Punisher made such a great antagonist to Daredevil, because of the deep moral debate.
This is one of the most realistic arguments in tv history. They cut each other off and they stumble on their words and it’s amazing
Definitely. And so intense. And they both have good points
Take notes Aaron Sorkin.
Kellz Main yep these two are amazing as their characters
@@spartancolonel Aaron Sorkin doesn't need any notes he's excellent at writing philosophical discussions and arguments in his shows and movies!
Yep. And when Daredevil called Frank insane at the end, I noticed how both sides are partially right. Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome.
That’s precisely what Daredevil does; he has the same people arrested or injured (or killed, in Nobu’s case), and it doesn’t work, yet he continues to do it, expecting a different outcome.
"you hit em and they get back up, I hit em and they stay down"
I got chills
Yeah but did you miss the part where Daredevil points out it's insane? Because it is
@@That_1_BohemianYeah but we created insanity as a definition. Think about what would actually help civilization. Get rid of the evil "another definition we created" and you'll live an easier life, if that's what you want.
@@ras523sar "when does someone come for you to get justice?"
Who desides when someone is evil? And how do you prevent it from being an excuse?
Daredevil is right, you cant kill because some "bad" people are redeemable and can/or are good people. It's impossible to know.
This version of Frank is emotionally unstable and mentally unhealthy. FURY is a 7 deadly sin for a reason, it doesn't justify your actions.
@@That_1_Bohemian all he did was call him insane and gave naive answer to franks unwavering based logic
@@That_1_Bohemiano if someone is shooting old women and the police kill them it's unjustified because the killer might have turned their life around? You're forgetting that in the real world if you attempt to kill someone or hurt them in any way shape or form that you're life is forfeit. If you don't believe that someone who takes lives by force and unjustly has the right to have their life taken by force then you're insane. I guess in you're opinion we should just release all the lifers in prison or release people on death row or all the rapists back into society so that they might try and not harm others by default.
No fan service, no flashy fight choreography, no dramatic score, just two damn good actors delivering a damn good argument in a damn good tv show.
Most importantly, no cheesy one-line jokes
@@hyphen6025 Sometimes that can be good as it fits certain characters as that's what they do but other times, Marvel movies can go WAY over board with that.
@@hyphen6025 There were jokes but they fit the character. Such as Santa Claus joke. Punisher has a very blunt personality so flipping off Daredevil with something so traditional fits him.
@@kaana8421 The Santa line isnt really a joke. Its a saying , comparing hope to a fantasy. A recent MCU joke wouldve been some goofy statement to undercut all the tension.
Well technically this scene is fan service as it is ripped directly from a punisher comic. It's almost an exact replication but yeah this scene is phenomenal and another great scene is the graveyard where Frank and daredevil talk.
This is the kind of scene the Disney+ shows will NEVER even strive for.
This is why I'm kinda excited yet scared of the Daredevil joining the Disney+ Shows because I'm kinda curious how they'll handle this but also nervous if they would ruin it. I'll just hope for the best. It's Marvel after all. Things usually work out sooner or later.
100% they will fuck up both daredevil and punisher. bet my new sets of expensive electric guitar strings on it
@@aryasenaputra3226
Wouldn't shock me in the least.
I'll bet it won't even have a lot of night scenes, the new Daredevil show.
@@musyrifo it’s marvel after all?? Bruh I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to marvel at all. Phase 4 is a joke, literally everything in marvel is a joke. Every piece of dialogue is. Every action scene cuts away to some joke. Plus it’s not hard to see the political agendas / woke aspect.
@@117MasterSpartan people are still using woke really ok
I can’t be the only one who loves how the punisher calls daredevil “red”
When you say goodbye to your communist friend: "See you around red"
I honest to god love it
Sort of unrelated but his voice seems a lot more high-pitched in this show
Lemmeask you sumptin Red
Jon Bernthal is perfect as “The Punisher” hopefully he’ll be back in future MCU movies, marvel has stated they wanted him and Charlie cox to return their roles.
"You hit them, they get back up. I hit them and they _stay_ down."
Yep, that's definitely something the Punisher would say.
i think he did, in a comic book. they already had this argument in a old issue.
Rob "Punisher: Welcome back, frank" to be exact
Ian Greene "Vengeance has consumed you, it's consuming them,...I'm done letting it consume me" - something Black Panther would say
one of the best quotes in history :)
Ian Greene "I AM BATMAN" SOMETHING THAT BATMAN DEFINITELY WOULD SAY
Matt is right that there is good even in evil people but Frank is right that these people would never try and bring out that good in themselves
Most reasonable take. I hate seeing people shit on Daredevil's convictions.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter Yeah sometimes people just see too much of the bad things than recognising the good things. The world isn't black and white and not everyone who did wrong was bad and redemption was possible in very bad people too. But Frank is also right about it that sometimes it's just too late to fix it and going back. There are people who will never be able to change or becoming better sometimes at the end of an day they just smile and laugh at others even if they are going to die
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter For an example look at batman. A lot of things could have been avoided if he just have got rid of the Joker who definitely can't be fixed.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter What makes vigilantes who won't kill unrealistic isn't that regular people DON'T believe in not killing, even criminals. Obviously most people have that moral fiber.
What makes it unrealistic is that yes, lots of people wouldn't believe in killing, but virtually ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE would never feel the need for vengeance against criminals that is required to become a vigilante.
Likewise anyone with enough burning vengeance against criminals, would find it also REMARKABLY difficult to not kill the worst of them.
So, I don't see ANYONE 'shitting' on DDs convictions. I see people remarking on the serious implausibility of a VIGILANTE who risks his life and serious jail time, to punish criminals, and then also will only punish them so much, and stop before risking their lives.
It's more unrealistic than most of what else happens in these shows. That's all.
@@freighttrain7143 respectfully, I've seen many people just outright say that DD is being an immature idiot. His way is obviously less pragmatic, but the reason he believes what he believes and acts the way he acts is super important for his character. I see people dismissing him completely because he doesn't do things Frank's way. I love their dichotomy, and it's not really an argument with an easy answer. I don't think it's inaccurate while going through multiple comments sections to say that people are outright shitting on his convictions. They're free to do so, obviously, it just annoys me to see, and I'm clearly in the minority. I appreciated the comment I replied to because it was one of the few reasonably worded ones I could find. Thanks for the thoughtful response. 🙏
I can't stop thinking about the neighbors...
"Wtf is going on up there?! I'm trying to sleep, goddamit!" 😂
😂😂😂😂
They're lucky they weren't in Boston, it'll be a neighborhood scream fest in no time.
@@Jackw00pw00p2 EY I'M TRYNA SLEEP OVAH 'EA
"Hey, you both make good points, so just fuck off and let everyone sleep!"
I'd be minding my business 😂
When the two smartest kids in class have different answers
Love that
Teachers dealing with bullies
when two bullied kid are discussing about school shooting
And they're both right
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever.
DD:
Killing people is bad!
Punisher:
Letting psychopaths live is bad!
Comic book writers:
Writing new villains every week is hard!
So, nobody wins at the end of the day?
:(
@@unknownguy8687 So Daredevil wins because you don't have to constantly write new villains if they don't die.
Back in the day Marvel and DC had tons of villains. Blame all the readers who stopped caring for episodic media.
@@RIDDICK0911 you mean dying and coming back to life again?
@@THE_BIGGEST_HATER no, I mean c- d- and e- listers. Dying and coming back is just another sin of serialized narrative.
“You wanna know why”
“Why”
“Because you’re insane”
This dialogue is so badass yet funny asf at the same time
"Wanna talk about santa claus?" I don't know how they do it so well, but I love the way they manage to make it a serious conversation/debate about whether or not murder can be justified, while also being subtly funny in a way that doesn't feel forced or like the writers were expecting the audience to wet themselves laughing.
Daredevil dropped both "you're insane" and "I'll take you down"... lol all they needed was an instance of swapping "kill" with "destroy" and they'd have the trifecta of classic cartoony hero-villain banters. Any yet hey, to their credit, they still pulled it off!
Says the guy running around in a devil outfit deluding himself he can change the world
Gotta love how organic this feels. This doesn't feel like a "come back to the light" plea from a comic book, this is an argument between men.
There’s nothing wrong with something feeling like a comic book at all, these ARE comic book characters after all and some of the best arcs of this show ARE best on comic book storylines here as you can make comic characters sound EXACTLY like real people all the time. No idea on where your coming from when you say but you’re completely wrong to do and say so!
@@Gadget-Walkmen He's not wrong at all. The comic books are obviously a much inferior way of telling stories, the dialogue is not written nearly as well. Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner.
Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation, hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted.
@@JustapErson He IS wrong entirely AND you are as well as NOTHING you've said here makes ANY sense at all as there are COUNTLESS comic books that have VASTLY superior style of storytelling when your properly tell a story WITHIN that medium such as Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Batman: Hush, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all WAY better than their live actions and animated film counterparts because of how well the story is told here.
You BADLY saying that "tHe cOmIC bOoKs Are ObIVoUsLY a MuCH inFerIoR wAy oF teLlIng StORiEs" is 100% WRONG as NOTHING about comic books are "inFeRioR" in ANY way if you actually bothered to see how fantastic ways stories have been told through mediums.
"the dialogue is not written nearly as well."
LOL Just no. spoken like someone whose NEVER read a comic as there is countless comic books with phenomenal dialogue that's better than even movies like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ultimate Spider-man, The Killing Joke, Daredevil: Born Again.
You have NO idea on what you're talking about at all when you say this nonsense of "tHe dIaLOgue iS nOt WrItTeN nEaRlY aS wElL.", lol just no. The dialogue is written PHENOMENALLY and spectacularly well and done.
The Dialogue is written JUST as well if you actually bothered to see how well written they all are.
The only thing you've established here is that you've NEVER read a comic book in your life or you completely failed to understand how excellently well done they are for you to be spewing out this nonsense right here entirely in ANY way, that' for certain.
"Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner."
This scene isn't pulled from ANY specific comic at all and just because it's live action, doesn't mean it's good at all. There are plenty of comic book that are WAY better than it's live action and animated counterparts like The Killing Joke, Watchmen, Batman: Hush, as I've mentioned beforehand and the source material of the comic are WAY better overall in comparison.
The "probably clear winner" is whatever is done RIGHT within it's own medium correctly as there is such thing as a BAD adaption, which you fail to notice here whenever you say anything here at all.
"Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation,"
There is no "cLeArLy hErE" AT ALL as all it matters is WHAT the context is for one to be better than the other in the SPECIFIC situation you're talking about here.
Inspiration and adaption can ONLY be as good as whatever they're doing within their own medium, that's it.
"hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted."
Obviously whatever Marvel does is inspired by comics than directly adapting any specific storyline EXACTLY as it was but like I said, Marvel does a excellent job at doing what they do through inspiration from what's been done in THEIR specific context, just like other Cinematic Universes should do so as well.
In other cases, adapted stories can be done FANTASTICALLY well from adaption of any comic storyline and it can be just as amazing as any inspired by storyline, like I said, it all depends on what's been done on a case by case scenario which you don't get AT ALL here in the slightest.
@@Gadget-Walkmen nerd
@@domagojgalekovic8507 Not even close, but you most certainly with what you're TERRIBLY saying right now here. That's for sure!
I kinda love how they don't "sound like superheros". They sound like people.
this is why I need MCU to dive into street level stuff way more, outside of someone like Spider-Man you wouldn't get this type of dialogue with the Avengers or anyone else lmaoo
@@storm5ds68 i mean all of their villains are crazy psychopaths' to a being out of this world, for the avengers, yeah you try to do "humanely talk" to Thor go ahead, like the only normal convo of the avengers is Stark and Rogers ramble in Age of Ultron while their breaking logs at Clints house.
@@storm5ds68 the avengers aren’t like this in the comics, they deal with people who constantly try to do something to the planet or the universe. You can’t always just sit down and have a philosophical argument with someone when they have an army trying to kill people.
I LOVE THAT PART. NO LIKE F KING DISNEY HAYKEYE SERIE
@@storm5ds68 that is why daredevil and kingpin are in the mcu now!
"So you just put em in the morgue"
"You goddamn right i do"
The confidence in this man speech is truly unbelievable
No sign of denial in that quote alone that is
Idk if that's how you use hands down
Lmao the Punisher rules.
They couldn’t have casted Frank Castle with anyone better than Bernthal and I will live and die with that opinion
Sorry to ruin the devils number or likes
One underrated thing in this scene that also should be worth mentioning is how Frank is not trying to convince Matt but make Matt UNDERSTAND his reasons. He even tells him that “I’m not a bad guy red”. The problem is the trauma Frank holds onto mixed with the fact he isn’t necessarily FULLY wrong about the ideals of criminals and how easy it is for them to get out and to strike again. It’s just the way he handles it.
Isn't making someone understand the same thing as convincing
@@johnLennon255 Not sure, but it could be.
@@johnLennon255 ehhh, not much. to understand is to realise the place where which the opinion falls from. to convince to change the actions based off what is said
Yeah Frank doesn’t care what Matt thinks but he wanted him to know he isn’t a madman, he’s actually doing a good thing for the city
@@johnLennon255no, kinda like with Thanos in Infinity War.
We understand why Thanos believes that he need to wipe out half the life in the universe.
But do you agree with what he's doing? Kinda like that. Understand his motives but don't agree with them.
"You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear, but what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid?" - Red Hood
He beats them up. That's kind of the point.
@@TheCompleteMentalyea red hood is talking about the ppl who ain’t afraid to get beat up for thoes wat do u do
Why is it that I get the feeling that Batman just wants to play cat and mouse with criminals? Like he just throws them in prison knowing they'll go back and boom, he's got another game night again to satisfy his desires to take them out. Damn the victims of these criminals, the bat wants to play.
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x more like batman trying to fix the system by the book with his only friend Jim in a f*cked up city. Both of them trust each other to the core and know both of them won't crack. If they did that means they lost the self righteousness to protect the city. He know murder is a crime that is the end and non redeemable. Plus batman is a detective not an executioner. If he wants to play the cat and mouse, he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good.
@@carenthusiasm345 "he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good."
*Joker exists*
"What happens when someone decides you deserve it?"
"I tell you what, they better not miss."
Laconian savagery
"How do you shoot the devil in the back?" *Holds up fucked up looking hand* "What if you miss?"
"If you hit me you better give it your best shot because if I get back up I'll eat you."
Silver Excel Poor Shane. At least both of Bernthal's characters are consistent, they're nutjobs.
Yknow, something tells me that Frank, even as The Punisher is still a Soldier longing for death after the shit he'd been through, at least that's what I got from that line... it's kinda sad...
Frank "...look around..."
DDevil "really, bruh?"
Well to be fair, Frank dosent know that daredevil is blind.
😂😂😂
Matt: congratulations you’ve played yourself
@@sebaslikesanimations1447 it's fixed
Frank “What have you seen?”
1:35 I love how punisher tells a blind guy to look around 🤣🤣🤣
I don't think he knows he's blind here at all.
Listen around red 😄
Smell around red
Feel around red
I might as well try it in real life..with real blind people😂
Bro really told daredevil to look around 😭
He’s knows that he can still see, he ain’t entirely blind. He even tests this.
Both sides have a point, that's the beauty of the scene.
But here's the rub: not everyone is capable of redemption.
not everyone is capable of redemption, but some people are. If someone kills your family etc, and you kill that person, personally I wouldnt blame you for it (even though you probably... shouldnt..) But that doesnt mean that objectively that person is incapable of becoming better, or that that person didnt have a reason to do what they did. Even if it's just that they were paid to do it, as disgusting as that might be. Or in Frank's case, if your family just got in the way of a gang fight (which he thinks is what happened). There's no way that out of the lets say 100 people Punisher kills, every single one of them is an evil rotten bastard down to their core, even if one out of 100 of them really is. You can't know that if you were under the same circumstances you wouldnt have been a criminal yourself. You cant know what lead them down that path, or what they would do if they were given a way out. It's not like he's exclusively going after the big crime bosses either, everyone is fair game to him. Of course in a life or death situation you dont have time to contemplate everyone's sob story, but the Punisher basically goes out of his way to kill people and he's proud of it too.
While that's possible that redemption can occur you have to remember that they stole someone else's life and opportunities to grow. They aren't more worthy of life than the people they killed. Even if they could change they forfeit that chance when they steal it from others. If you kill an innocent you don't deserve the second chance you didn't give them. It's not just about killing. There will always be a difference between killing an innocent person and an evil person.
92Beyo I gotta disagree with you. I think Matt's argument was kind of ridiculous. About hope and light in ppl. You're not gonna change Frank's mind with any type of spiritual shit lol. But I guess it depends on your point of view.
92Beyo I know a lot of other ppl said this too but once Matt started talking about hope and light in ppl he just sounded naive
The way they make their characters sound like they’re actually having an argument instead of repeating memorized lines is amazing. Two amazing, severely underrated actors
You're so godamn right. Even with all the publicity they've gotten in recent years - Bernthal in Punisher, Walking Dead, Shot Caller, The Unforgivable and Charlie Cox in Daredevil, Theory of Everything, Legacy... Even with all of that, these guys are so fucking criminally underrated it's ridiculous.
One thing Marvel Netflix did impossibly well, better than pretty much any other superhero franchising - the casting.
@@alexwyckoff8962 well said bub
Well that’s just acting my guy, if it doesn’t sound real then it’s a bad performance
Idk this is pretty stale arguing
@@alexwyckoff8962 Marvel has some insane luck with casting, Im telling ya. Their casting department should be set for life from Disney, their work is that good. The entire first avengers cast, Tom Holland, Charlie Cox, John Bernthal, Vincent D'Onofrio, the entire Gaurdians of the Galaxy crew, both 1 and 2, etc.
Holy crap. Writers who obviously understand the characters and who have read the source material were behind this scene. Sad that Disney has abandoned that approach with their current crop of shows.
Disney is evil
Disney: We don't do that here.
LOL that's 100% NOT true at all as Disney writers CAN be this good as This show was made and written UNDER Disney. You do realize this WAS a disney show FOR netflix, right? And disney writers in general everywhere CAN learn and do good to do better completely and entirely for their shows as they've stated they're going to learn from what they've done to do BETTER than before.
@@Gadget-Walkmen Yeah, but people in comment sections have this insatiable need to be walking cliches and one of them involves saying "Disney bad" so they'll never admit that fact just because it contradicts their agenda and complaints even though they're still gonna watch whatever disney comes out with.
@@disturbedrenegade9815 basically yeah, Disney haters are the worst when they act like this and not realize this show came out UNDER Disney. I have no doubt disney plus is gonna make a great show for Daredevil completely!
“You hit them, they get back up. I hit them and they stay down!”
Pretty cool quote
This flows like an actual conversation. It doesn’t sound scripted in the least
I know right? It's like the director just said. Okay daredevil defend this opinion and punisher defend the other, after about 2 minutes and 50 seconds punch daredevil.
I believe the director told them that the scene had to flow in the most natural way possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Cox and Bernthal improvised their lines.
Platinum Peyton that’s how he is , whenever he acts that’s how it was with him on the walking dead
Hey Wyatt
Just like Goodfellas
Comic fact: Ghost Rider's penance stare, which affects people who have sinned, does nothing to Punisher, because he feels no regret killing criminals.
that's actually really cool
@@hkp7240 he had a protection artifact that made the stare not work the stare would have worked if not bc of said artifact wich was a feather from an angel way,still frank has guilt..his family he blames himself for their death
Same for Thanos because he believe everything he did.
Thats pretty dumb and bad writing, thats not even how his penance stare works. If it would be it wouldn't work a lot of times.
@@toniotrussardi8126 which issue is this?
The most human exchange between the hero & the anti-hero that you will ever watch, see, witness or encounter. Take your pick. This was so spot on. You have to appreciate it no matter what. It doesn’t get more real than this.
Morally good and morally neutral at its very best
@@kainkong274, yep! Totally agree! So satisfying all at once!
@@NYG1991 indeed so
Frank's more of a hero then daredevil ever could be.
@@kainkong274, oh yes!
"Crime can not be tolerated. Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding." -Ra's al Ghul
Just imagine if they had this scene with Bruce and Ducard
Exactly!
"You never think for one second; shit, I hust killed a human being!?"
"You're being generous."
This part really got me.
To be honest, I'd be with the Punisher on this one, because do you know what question I would ask Daredevil? How long do innocent people have to grieve and fear for themselves and their loved ones while you wait for evil men to find redemption?
I'm honestly having a hard time understanding the comeback. Can someone explain?
@@pepper1234ization The people the punisher kills are so beyond what is defined socially as a "human being", they're monsters.
Hust..._..You mean just
He said that being pretty generous.
"They better not miss" Billy Russo missed. Then he got his face pushed down against glass...
Russo created The Punisher.
Castle created Jigsaw
@@danielmoorefield4891 And what Jigsaw created ?
@@macedon379 nothing really
@@salvadorlucero1034 the movie Saw.
*laugh track*
@@rabbid3433 then the movie saw created jigsa- wait a goddamn minute.
I love that chuckle the Punisher does before knocking Matt out.
it's like: "haha. Insane yeah? Would an insane person do this?!"
“I’ll show you insane.”
LMAO, that's hilarious
I REALLY like how the Punisher can't look Daredevil in the eye in all of this. Knowing he is blind, he freely makes it show that he doesn't feel justified with his body language. He moves around, does other things, and even when sitting in front of him, he looks side to side instead of looking straight at him. I LOVE that.
honestly I think that's how Jon Bernthal acts
@@andrewwong2399 oh really?? Haha did I give too much credit?
@@the8u9 he kinda does the same thing in walking dead and wolf of wall street where he looks off to the side when he's annoyed at someone. He probably does the same thing in real life lol
@@andrewwong2399 ohhhhhhhh haha you're totally right
Except that he doesn't know he is blind
DD: “What about hope?”
Punisher: “🙄 oh fuck”
Spot on reaction.
“You wanna talk about Santa Claus? You wanna talk about Santa Claus?” I chuckle at that line.
@@bloodyrose1985 I freaking love Frank so much. XD
Right lol
For a psychopath, yeah it is
Murdock: What about hope?
Castle: I was hoping you wouldn't bring UP hope!
"What happens the day someone decides you deserve it?"
"Tell you what, they better not miss."
The fantastic discussion aside, this line always cracked me up.
It’s exactly what he thinks too, comics punisher said once “at the bottom of my long long list, is my name too”
He is self-aware, he knows that he has done some bad shit, torture, killing innocents especially during his stint in Kandahar, and he blames himself for the death of his family. Ultimately, he believes that he deserves to be punished as well and to be put down. But until that day comes, he is gonna take all the beatings the world gonna give him, and kill all the degenerates on his way to his own demise.
I think you guys are missing the point he means “they better not miss” because he’s gonna kill them if they don’t first
@@jackrobinson3833 …….thank you captain obvious.
@@jackrobinson3833 But also because he has nothing to lose which makes him even more dangerous
My favorite part is how it actually sounds like 2 people talking like you can actually imagine people having this argument. The writing and the actors portraying it. Perfection
The way when they talk over each other while arguing yet you can still hear them because the actors delivered their lines and gave each other room to be heard. Just wow
so this is what a blind man arguing with a veteran looks like
Afflicted15 there's so much significance to your comment and it's sad that it was overlooked by the rest in here
Now that you bring it up, holy shit
What's the significance of this comment?
Muhammad Usman You're too blind to see it
Afflicted15 Both metaphorically and literally. Matt is blind literally, but also does not see that some people are beyond redemption, while Frank is a veteran literally, but also has experience in seeing that pure evil exists, and that evil will never change
I miss this series. Such intelligent writing and brilliant acting.
The MCU desperately needs scenes like this.
But it can never because people love one liner cheesy jokes in every scene
We kind of got a scene similar to this whenever Tony and Steve talked about the sokovia accords. The idea of being under the governments surveillance and being independent
Haven't had good dialog in Ann MCU flick since Infinity War
"You hit em and they get back up, I hit em an they stay down!" this quote gives me chills, such an epic line
The Geek Same, its badass! :)
Epic indeed
Best line,sums up the difference between the two. Ever read Welcome Back Frank?
so true, he's a wheeler dealer, they ethier end up rolling out in a chair or a hearse. XD
I still can't move on from this line even after watching it a year ago. A line that sticks in my head... PERMANENTLY! :D
"so you put'em in the morgue?"
"you're damn right I do!"
epic.......not even a hint of hesitation.....
Willverinerage what did you expect he's trained not to hesitate.
not even for a second
Has nothing to do with training...
+Max Frankow enlisted men spend a lot of time answering questions lazer quick to sgts. If you spend a few years doing something consistently you would become good at it.
That's because he's right, evil people don't deserve the slightest sympathy. They prey on the weak and people like Frank (i.e. the police,military,and sheepdog civillians) prey on them.
What I love most about this scene is that it reflects the conversation Matt and Foggy had in the first season but while those two were discussing the dangers of vigilantism Frank and Matt are here discussing the principles and morality behind it
"what about hope?" "Oh fuck" LMFAOOOOOOOOOO i swear that always killed me
I love it when Frank says “You wanna talk about Santa Claus? You wanna talk about Santa Claus?”
Classic meat head Punisher when someone tries to convince him that killing people on the street is bad
@@DoctorDewgong average goody two shoes daredevil thinking things in life are like in tv shows that everyone can be fixed,hope? lol ask about hope to the victims of criminals the only hope u gonna get is for the criminals to pay one way or another
@@DoctorDewgong daredevil has as much blood on his hands as criminals he leaves alive
@@brothersofwrath4785 Daredevil does not exist
“You know, you’re one bad day away from being me.” 💀
Which part did he say that? Is it between 1:44 and 1:50 because I cant find it at all...... what the hell lol
@@artofmartialcinemaamc5334 This is the Joker's line to Batman
@@matheuscruz8574 if I remember correctly Frank said it first in the Punisher meets Daredevil comic a while back by Frank Miller. I don't know the source so you'd have to look it up.
@@LoganSimpkins04 funny because daredevil has had that one bad day and kept going
Nah he said it in the show
So basically Batman is Daredevil and Red hood is Punisher here
Yeah basically except Batman will find many other ways and methods to take down criminals outside of killing them that some will call questionable, like in Batman TAS where a criminal was barely hanging for his life and begged Batman & Robin for help, but Batman refused until he got the information he wanted even coldly stating “we’re not the police.”
Batman & Daredevil have a strong moral code against taking lives but the difference is Batman wouldn’t mind breaking every bone in a criminals body to achieve his mission, while Daredevil will only get brutal against crime if the situation gets crazy, otherwise he’ll mostly just try to knock criminals out quickly and will only resort to actual pain when it comes to interrogation.
I like to think punisher is arguing for his own sake rather than being for someone else
Kind of yeah, Daredevil is religous and that guides his view of taking life while Batmans is guided by his parents death causing him to never want to see another person die like that. Frank is a lot more brutal than redhood, redhood would use fear to keep criminals in line the punisher would just kill them
“Hey Siri, what’s the definition of acting?”
What’s cool is that this is literally the death penalty debate; and both sides bring up great points
Alex USTP I’m glad that I wasn’t the only person that seen how The Punisher versus Daredevil debate is similar to how people that support death penalty versus the people that are against the death penalty.
If it was your love one depends on your believe cause some want them forever in jail and some want them dead it should be left to the victims families if they live or die
The thing with the death penalty is that if there is even a chance that a person didn’t do something it can cause innocent lives to be lost
Antonio Rodriguez That’s why the important part isn’t if they live or die, the important part comes in the law’s judgment and ours.
deloreandmc85 That’s a pretty black and white view of the world you got there buddy.
If you call the punisher a "Nut job" straight to his face and he leaves you alive, you're the luckiest.
It means he hasn't deemed you as guilty. I love Punisher in the comic of Civil War. Captain America beats him up and Punisher doesn't fight back.
@@TopcatsLair because Cap was his hero.
@@Morningstar91939 Man, when I heard about that I wanted to cry.
Man without fear!
@@TopcatsLair because he still knows matt’s a good guy
THIS is why Punisher is the Anti-Hero the world NEEDS but doesn't deserve.
Funny. This scene told me, "this is why the world NEEDS more daredevil and less meat head Punishers"
@@DoctorDewgong my guy jail time barely fixes anything sometimes make criminals even worse once they leave
@@toniotrussardi8126 jail time isn't supposed to fix them it's supposed to remove people from society who are a danger to society. Your solution is to just kill??
@@toniotrussardi8126 What sort of criminals are we talking about? Truly evil ones or all of them including petty thieves?
@@snnnaaaaaakeeeee4470 Who do you fucking think you fucking idiot? We're talking in context to the show which are OBJECTIVELY WRONG crimes.
"Because you're insane!"
"I take your point. Counterpoint-" WRENCH.
"Youre one bad day away from being me" -Punisher
We all can relate to this somehow
Joker said it first
Sounds like punisher is a joker fanboy
@@barry2349 exactly
Timestamp?
@@afmorales7155 of what?
"There's really something broken in you."
I mean, the man had his wife and kids murdered in front of him.
So did Daredevil whose father was murdered and he lost his eyesight. That didn't make him bitter. He saw the difference between vengeance and justice and chose to do the right thing. If he wanted, he could be far more deadlier than Punisher. Would have brought the entire mob and mafia of New York to their knees single handedly but he chose not to.
@@MrMadhusudhan45 totally different. Matt's dad died when he was blind and he was a kid. Still innocent. Frank was already a grown man in the military and had his family brutally murdered in front of him.
Let's check out more comics information:
• Elektra died in front of him and thar didn't made him bitter (ok, just a little, but he didn't turned into a Punisher)
• Karen died in front of him
• Foggy "died" in front of him
• Blindspot (he is like a son to DD) was blinded by a serial killer in "front" of him (he hearded everything)
• Milla Donovan got crazy little by little in front of him
• Heather Glenn committed suicide after a phone call with him
• His personal life was literally destroyed on Born Again
• He broke up with Kirsten McDuffie on a terrible way
• He was possessed by a demon and had to "kill" himself for stopping him
All of this and much more are daredevil's life tragedies, and he never turned up to what Frank is. Daredevil is a character *made* for being destroyed and *always* get up. That's the main difference about Daredevil and Punisher: Red gets up, Frank stays down.
The tragic part about that line is that it's also referring to Frank's fractured skull.
@@lucasmiguel4734 great comment
this scene still feel so organic. i really feel like the director just told them to defend their side and just go at it for a bit. Stumbling over words, talking over each other, the yelling at certain points,, feels totally natural
"you hit them they get up" "I hit them they stay down" damn such powerful words.
True but also terrifying. One wrong judgement from Punisher and an innocent man is suddenly dead
Missed that line: "you're one bad day away from becoming me"
@shattered Rubyinserts mark Hamill laugh while beating Jason Todd with a crowbar *mwhahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA*
That’s what the final season was about. Daredevil faced his “bad day” and in the end stayed good.
that's a straight up joker line lol
@@tauhid9983 It was a Punisher line in one of his early appearances from the 80s (in a Frank Miller Daredevil comic), then a Joker line, then a Punisher line again.
@@geoffreysorkin5774 shit I didn't know. I doubt alan moore copied it from frank miller or anything lol. But I guess that's the running theme with bad guys eh? lol
"I really have to spell it out for you Rick?"
"Wait who's Rick?"
"Nevermind"
You're right, matt... That Is enough!
LOL i see what you did there...
Frank: I'm a better father than you!
Matt: What?
Frank: You got a broken woman, a weak boy, look around and see what you've caused
Matt: Now hang on a second
L’me ask you sumthin’ Matt *rubs the back of his head furiously*
Walking dead was never the same once him and Meryl left.
2:03 Punisher:What have you seen?
Daredevil:
Good point.
Daredevil: Civilian
Punisher: Veteran
No DD, there are people you can't have walking on earth
Ain't that the truth
@@ArtoriasTheRock muderers and rapists get to decide who lives and dies??????
It is about doing what's necessary
@@ArtoriasTheRock daredevil is already breaking the law just by being a vigilante for that matter so him talking about court and jury is hypocrisy. The thing is, if you are gonna take justice upon yourself, you better finish what you started for the corrupted authorities will not put them in place
Punisher is a fucking psycho tho
Most of the people he kills aren't Wilson Fisk, they're people in desperate situations that made bad choices
@@yurifairy2969 like the russian mafia?
“M’ask you summin’ Red”
*head rub*
"Ehh, you gotta do watcha gotta do"
hasn’t changed since the walking dead lol
He’s a good actor.
Qevon i know i was kidding; he’s a fantastic actor
It's hard to believe this is the same Daredevil in She-Hulk, it really is.
daredevil is a very nuanced character who can be both kind and funny as well as dark and gritty:)
He was overall consistent in She-hulk as he was dealing with a light hearted situation.
"you left men on meat hooks"
"They got off easy!"
They got off easy. Their female victims got "hooked" and are living to carry that ordeal in their heads forever.
Their ideologies were explained perfectly in this scene:
Daredevil believes that every human being, no matter how deplorable, still have some good in them, and thus should not be killed.
The Punisher believes that the people he puts down have no good left in them, and thus are not worth letting live.
This is why Daredevil is one of the best shows i've ever watched.
@Some Damn OUTLAW I completely missed that scene.
It's been years since I've watched it though. I watched DD as it was released.
@Some Damn OUTLAW how he didnt kill him stick did Tf you mean "excuses"
@@mr.doctorcaptain1124 he never killed anybody he fell of the building survived then stick cut his head off finally killing him not matt
@@prodigen3683 that's right, I remember that scene now. Good call
Matt is a Catholic to his core, he'd turn into another Frank otherwise and almost did in Season 3.
Now that Charlie Cox is confirmed to return as Daredevil, Jon Bernthal needs to return as Punisher. This argument needs to happen on the big screen!
All Netflix customes
Maybe him and Spider-Man could meet each other and they have similar argument. I mean DD and Spider-Man have the similar ideologies that go against Punisher’s
Even though i fcking dig Jon Berntal as a Punisher, deep in my heart I don't wish to see him ruined by Disney. They have no guts to make Punisher with the same rating as Netflix did. All we gonna get , is movie for kids and Chinese with 12+rate.
Mark my words when they gonna ruin Daredevil. Scene from Spiderman already confirmed my concerns, it's all about fun now and nothing serious.
Hawkeye , in the meantime ruined Wilson Fisk already . Scene looks like some avengers movie (explosion near character, throwback for 15 meters and hit by a car and not a single drop of blood, like nothing even happened to him) that's a Circus.
P.S: even Jon Bernthal said he won't return as a Punisher unless Disney willing to make changes in ratings. He don't wana ruin his character.
@@anonymousfx5254 is really sad, Disney as always ruining everything, we need to do something
@boobie maniac Only if Disney would give back filming rights to Netflix, otherwise it's gonna be horsesh.t, and Berntal knows it as a fun of Punisher character so he will not take part of ruining it.
I'm with Frank on this. Because heroes like Daredevil, Batman, Spider-Man, all the heroes who refuse to kill because they believe a person can be redeemed, are always making an implicit moral calculation when they say that, and it's that the potential good in an evil person is worth sacrificing the actual good in all the innocent victims they hurt. And I think that's a terrible moral position to take. If the point of being a hero is to make the world a better place filled with goodness, then it only makes sense to get rid of the people who snuff that goodness out, even if a tiny bit of goodness can be found in them.
@@nobody-fp5is It's really no different than what we and every other society has done throughout human history. That's why the counterargument makes no sense.
The history of humanity is a history of governmental bodies defining the boundaries of morality, deciding who is deserving of punishment/death or not. For thousands of years, the decisions delivered by these governing authorities were about as arbitrary as any rogue vigilante, only compounded and legitimized by the overbearing power of the state. Even in the modern world, we haven't really come that far. Our so-called justice systems are only distinguished by virtue of the number of people (jurors) who get to decide on a person's fate, and judges who have to abide by specific punishments regulated by, again, an overbearing authoritative governmental institution. All of these are just as arbitrary as what Frank Castle does, and the way we do things is no more accurate or fool-proof than what Castle does, regardless of how much we like to pretend that it is. Innocent people get sentenced to death row or life in prison in our justice system all the time, and guilty people go free all the time. Perhaps juries and courts are slightly better at not making these kinds of mistakes than vigilantes would be, but I'm willing to bet that they aren't that much better. And even then, the actual punishments meted out to criminals are completely arbitrary, the decision of any jury no matter how seemingly unprejudiced is going to be colored to some degree by bias, and judges are likewise biased regardless of how much we think otherwise. This idea that a liberal judicial system is a more functional alternative to vigilante justice is a joke, and society believes it because it's only marginally true and it makes people feel more secure. You could argue that vigilante justice is often excessive in its retribution, and I can agree to that. On the other hand, the criminal justice system is often not nearly hard enough on big-time criminals, and also too hard on people who have committed very trivial offenses. The only reason that a justice system is preferable to vigilante justice is because it keeps society stable and orderly, and it makes people feel comfortable with the state of things.
There's one major problem with that view though: What if you get it wrong?
I'm sure you've heard the stories about innocent bystanders in active shootings who took down the shooter only to get shot dead when the cops arrive on the scene. The cops' actions in that moment make sense, they're showing up to a shooting gallery and when they arrive they find a bunch of dead bodies and a guy with a gun in his hand but when they unload on him they're killing an innocent man.
@@bagser1 Juries and judges get things wrong too. Plenty of innocent victims have gone to prison for life or death row through juridical incompetence or malpractice, or through pure jury bias.
Whether it's one lone vigilante or a court full of people, you can't escape bias and human error. The justice system doesn't make the "what if you're wrong" problem go away.
It’s really a question of morality most of the time for people the logical choice would be just to kill said villain like the joker etc but at the same time if you kill every bad guy that comes what’s the difference between you and them.Killing someone is still. A sin whether if they deserved it or not
@@awesomerad6022 No, it doesn't make us the same. I really hate when people say that. It's one of the dumbest, most morally inept statements probably ever made. No, killing somebody who likes to murder innocent people or rpe people or do any other heinous crime, DOES NOT make us the same as them. You know why? Because the people we'd be killing aren't innocent. When you say shit like that, what you're actually doing is morally equating people like the Joker to the people he kills, which is a morally reprehensible and nonsensical thing to say. There are already millions of ways that "we" are better than "them." If killing was the only thing that separated "us" from "them", then you're basically saying that everyone is already a monster and no one is good.
Everyone pointing out how the dialogue sounds like an actual conversation proves that A. Both actors are incredible and B. That whoever wrote the dialogue is a fucking artist at their work
"Look around, Red." Haha good one.
Lmao
Lol it took me awhile
Frank: look around Red...
Matt: *shrugs*
@@jimmy2k4o xD
DAMN!!!
"You ever doubt yourself Frank?
"Not even for a second"
This is what I love about The Punisher. He feels no remorse for what he did. His sense of justice overwhelms his conscience. Nothing can stop him once he decides someone should die.
EDIT: I’m not saying I 100% agree with Punisher’s beliefs. What I admire most about him is that he never doubts himself. Most heroes would feel conflicted about their choices, but not him. He never goes back on his word except for a really compelling reason (like the time he nearly killed John Pilgrim but ultimately decided against it).
That's why Ghost Rider's stare doesn't work on him.
@@GingerZombie29 which was bullshit because that's not how the penance stare works
Yeah, but that’s overestimating himself. Which is not always good. It can get the better of him.
I think that the Penance Stare makes u feel whatever your “victims” felt when you hurted/killed them
I think that it doesnt work on Frank because he doesnt feel remorse, And if he was a “Bad” guy he would feel like everything bad that happens to him is deserved
He doesnt feel guilty for his actions, He actually believes that everyone he killed deserved it, And if he “feels” their pain, He doesnt care, For him they are scum on the earth that doesnt deserve to live
The Penance Stare's power and judgement depends on how much the Rider wants to punish the sinner and its more than possible Ghost Rider allowed Frank to live as the only difference between them was Frank wasn't supernaturally powered. He was merely shocked that all the people Frank killed were evil and that he doesn't regret killing anyone as most people would even if they were evil.
I love how much of an emphasis the show gave to daredevils ideals of not taking a human life. The expression, the desparation in his voice to make punisher understand was immense in this scene
I honestly agree with Frank’s argument a lot. Some deserve redemption, but most, even if a traumatic run in with one of them were to happen, they’d chalk it up to “I’m lucky, but I’m gonna keep doing my own thing”
Frank's given people breaks before. Frank's just right
Frank is completely right 100%
Frank kills those who specifically have had multiple chances to change and chose not to. You never hear of punisher murdering a 1st time offender snatching a purse from an old lady. He kills serial rapists, murderers, and kidnappers. He goes for the lowest society has to offer and DD sees everyone as a first time offender in his eyes so he alwayse thinks another chance is an option. For these types of human beings, they gave up that chance a long before they ran into him or the Punisher. Even the justice system itself agrees with Frank to a degree, as some crimes can literally earn you a lawful death as punishment.
@@qualicumjack3906No he isn't. There are a good amount of criminals who change their ways and become good, functioning members of society. This has been the case billions of times throughout Human history.
However, not all criminals are like this. So both Frank AND Matt are right, and they're both wrong. And that's the point. Neither has a perfect argument and they're both extremely flawed
The street-level and more brutal version of the dialogue between the Vision and Ultron.
@Avenging Demon no. Its very subjective. There is no right answer. Every case with different scenarios need to be looked at carefully, and then make a fair decision to both parties. But us humans are too impatient for that, so we decide the easier one, hence the law system.
@Avenging Demon They're both right and they're both wrong; however, the fact that you think Frank is completely right is kinda unsettling.
@@lex_rodriguez why? Every person he kills is irredeemable, and they are sick murderers, rapists freaks. Some people deserve to die for their sins, often because they're too numerous to count. You probably live life hoping the best of people, and that's nice, I wish I could. But I can't, I've seen the shittyness of people and how they won't change. I don't think all criminals should die and I don't think all murderers should die, so do end up repenting and feeling regret and sadness at what they did. But then there are the ones who take pride in it, they deserve nothing
Metalhead2968 4 Life
That’s the thing. You agree with killing but also oppose the thought of killing. That’s why this debate is subjective. There is no correct answer. You can’t have the idea of: Kill this guy because, don’t kill this guy because. They have both killed, thus both deserve punishment.
Also, nearly 7/10 of humans on this doomed planet is shitty. Only on a rare occasion will you meet a genuinely kind person.
Stay safe during this pandemic my good sir.
@@sleepingzoro7530 no, someone that killed to protect innocent people, doesn't deserve punishment, period.
2:09 The way Charlie Cox's voice cracks a bit when he says "No, Frank, to try again, Frank." gets me every time.
That's my favorite part too. He gets hoarse . I think because he's not talking about other men. He's talking about himself too. He wants redemption for himself as well.
His father as well. Ray Nadeem from season 3. Redemption is possible
@@catherinesanchez1185 why does he want redemption for himself when he never did anything bad?
@@aryan7767 not for everyone.
@@magallanesagustin4952 Catholic guilt mate. Plus he is conflicted about even beating the shit out of guys.
One of my favorite scenes in television history. I can't wait for more Daredevil in the MCU.
"You hit'em and they get back up. I hit'em and they STAY DOWN!"
Some agree with Daredevil
Some agree with The Punisher
While everyone agrees that their argument really makes you think about issues in real life
There's a third argument in there.
Bruh your everywhere dawg🤣
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever
@@caffreydavis218 Depending on the crime. Death seems better for murderers, rapists and pedos, etc but petty theft or something don't deserve death
Theyre both wrong. You dont give a man a second chance to kill you and your children and you dont kill him either. You kneecap him or cut of his hands or eliminate his ability to be a threat. You make it so he cant do it again. Killing is unnecessary most of the time. You get the same results by making so they simply cant do it again but are still alive to think about it. Bullet in the knew. Dislocate his joints so hell be lucky to ever regain feeling. Shatter his legs. Cut off his primary hand. Take out his eyes, etc. Ironic punishment or poetic justice. You decide
“Shit I just killed a human being”
“That’s being generous”.
Awesome scene.
The fact that DD breaks his "No Kill" rule at the end when Nobu kills Elektra, proves Frank was right.
@@cinereous9214 He still fucking died, regenerating doesn't change the fact that he killed. He knew he would die, his enemy healing doesn't change his actions.
@@cinereous9214 the outlaw king has a point there comes a time where it comes down to the crunch sometimes its the best thing you can do for a human being
"One bad day from being like me"
@@theoutlawking9123 There's a lot of distance between kicking someone off a roof in a fight to save someone and going on a crusade where you leave no enemies alive like Frank.
I don’t know how is the situation in North America but as someone who was born in Latin America I can’t help being on Punisher side. I mean there have being cases of a thug head shooting a 8 years old child just for fun and being released one week after being caught. That’s why a lot of people of my generation studied and worked their asses of to literally ran away to other continents so we can start a new life. Growing up in places like this makes you lacks of hope.
I can relate, I've lived around gang violence in Puerto Rico. The bastards go to jail and when the come out they do the same shit again. They're animals.
i grew up in africa and i also 100% agree with punisher, ''rehabilitation'' in general is a very privileged thing imo that can only work in places like norway, there is no rehabilitating the ppl i grew up around...
I watched daredevil about 2 years ago after I watched this video of their "argument".
To all the people who are saying punisher is right(or they side with the punisher)
When you see the outcome of their ideologies and you realise how much daredevil is holding inside of him you are gonna have mad respect for him!
Daredevil has as much blood on his hands as the criminals he refuses to kill
Daredevil doesn’t even know how many people he has killed. Many of the goons he punches, kicks in the head & throws down stairs could have died later. He doesn’t know.
The brilliance of this argument is that they're both correct. They just have different times for their views to be appropriate.
Punisher is wrong. In the real world people have been reabilitated and changed their ways
While there are those that have changed, what about those that can't change their ways?
Daredevil sees good in all people, which is absolutely fucking retarded. While there are those that have a POSSIBLY of changing, his logic risks innocent people's live all because of Daredevil's stupid ideology to get murdered, raped etc.
While Punisher's way makes sure that no innocent person get hurt by putting down criminals that deserve to die in his point of view.
Acute Cloudd yeah SOME people really can change... but how about some that unable to? how many victim has to suffer from them before they finally change?
+Thossaphorn Asawachinachot
One thing that can then complicate things even further is that if one builds a culture, where the common mindset is “once a bad guy, always a bad guy”, then this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy that increases the amount of irredeemable monsters in society, the very thing which is often provided as proof that Punisher’s methods are needed in the first place.
(a bunch of extra thoughts below):
If a person has done something horrible in the past, but still feels a grain of genuine guilt and conflict, then being surrounded by people who basically voice the message of “men like you can never change” is not going to help him. If anything, that might convince him even further that he cannot change, making it even more likely that he will not even try to get off of his current path. In those hypothetical cases, then that could still increase the amount of people he/she hurts before being caught/killed. Similarly, Punisher definitely has an important point when he says that the justice system is screwed up, sick with corruption, and/or inept. But at the same time, if everyone believes as he does that becoming a vigilante who executes criminals is the only choice left, then that only increases the chances of us having a future where nobody even tries to fix our justice system. In short, the justice system might become broken beyond repair, but possibly only because everyone treats it as such. It is kind of like Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein”, with the one difference being that it involves a man/system who actually is somewhat of a monster having its destiny of becoming an even worse monster (or at least not turning good) further sealed, whereas Frankenstein’s creature actually was innocent and child-like, only to have its fate of growing into a monster be sealed by society treating him as one.
I can sympathize with both of their points of view. I think what sums up the differences between Punisher and Daredevil’s mindsets is that Daredevil is willing to take a risk, for better or worse, in hopes that the door for a better society/humanity can be opened. Punisher is convinced that it is not possible for society/humanity to get much better, so he does what he feels will at least guarantee that it cannot get worse than it already is.
Acute Cloudd No, Punisher can be right. In the real world if the cops tell you surrender you do so or get shot. Matt has a point that they should *try* to bring criminals to justice, but it’s foolish to say no killing them no matter what.
Sometimes it’s them or some innocent family.
the acting between Charlie and Jon were perfect.
This is the best debate at the heart of all superhero stuff.
Can't believe this show existed, it was perfect.
Best scene of season two. Daredevil vs. Punisher mental battle. Insane writing.
why couldnt Batman v Superman have been like this as well i am a marvel and DC fan but i felt let down by DOJ tbh the ultimate edition was a bit better but i ultimately believe Zack Snyder fucked it up because it is him who has final say on the script and i still fear for JL this year with him directing it
It really is a scene that Aaron Sorkin or David Mamot WISH they wrote. So well written with such terrific performances.
I wished Season 2 was more like this. While I loved Elektra, her and The Hand took the spot light away from Punisher. I cared way more for Frank's revenge and his arguments with Matt than The Hand's master plan (which was underwhelming in Defenders)
Every dialogue scene between Matt and Frank ar beyond amazing.
Fantastic scene, only thing better to me was Punishers graveyard scene.
What's great about this argument is that neither of them are wrong.
I would definitely side with Punisher on this one. The problem for fighting for Truth and Justice in the world of superhero is that the battle never ends. The hero brings the villain to jail only for the villain to go out and cause chaos once again.
I think Joker from Injustice 1 said it well. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah, but the problem is that Punisher's methods can also end up killing innocents or create more criminals who may end up taking the place of the guys he killed. (Like a never ending cycle)
@@anjaneyasreetrout2444 sorry for the late reply just got back home from work.
That is true IF there is anyone from that world that can replace the bad guys. Honestly the no-kill rule is for superheroes who are either naive or just won't see they're error. In a crossover between Marvel and DC when Punisher was about to kill the Joker, Batman arrived and just allows him to run away.
In my opinion the Cons far outweighs the Pros. While people will call anti-heroes psychopaths, murderers, or among other thing. They do what no other heroes could never do. End the War between villains and heroes. Of course that is if anyone who has the guts to step up on the big table and took his/her place. Then good luck.
@@arkhamknight9001 I get your perspective, but if we’re talking about the Punisher specifically, he literally at the end of this very episode, destroys the biker gang’s bikes at the bar across the street, inciting them into charging the apartment complex full of innocents, all just to escape Daredevil who was kicking his ass. And who has to save the day? Daredevil
A sly Cooper fan 👍👍👍
this is how people argue in real life, finally someone put a scene where people cut eachother off , this is realistic
Netflix was such a good place for these characters. The Disney/MCU execs would never allow something this layered
I think this season could’ve been perfection if they took out everything surrounding The Hand and just focused on DD and Punisher along with their moral clash
I liked the Hand, but just should've been in smaller doses
@@thee_morpheus Agreed the Defenders should have taken the Hand storyline completely.
Actually, the entirety of the hand stuff with elektra is pretty much the same thing, specially the flashbacks.
i went back to watch daredevil just for the punisher scenes, literally skipped over everything with the hand i didnt care lol punisher just meshes perfectly in this season
@@holdmyseatbelt1184 i watched daredevil just for the punisher as well
DD: "What happens the day someone decided you deserve it?"
FC: "I'll tell you what, they better not miss."
Fuckin' gangster!
"You hit 'em and they get back up. I hit 'em and they stay down." reminds me of a line Batman says in Batman v Superman, "Criminals are like weeds, Alfred; pull one up, another grows in its place."
If you put one in jail, they'll break out. If you kill one, another one will take its place. Its a never ending battle, so whichever way you choose to do it, you'd still be making the world a safer place.
The way they stutter and talk over each other, this is one of the most realistic arguments I've seen in media.
"You hit 'em and they get back up, I hit 'em, THEY STAY DOWN!!"
That's my favorite line.
“Try again” is my favorite.
amazing dialogue
Yeah. I'm on Punisher on this that's the problem about fighting for Truth and Justice in the superhero world. The battle never ends. It's an unending game of cat and mouse with the hero bringing the villain to prison only for them to get out do the same thing again.
Joker probably said it well in Injustice: God's Among Us. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah but you need both kinds of people. The truth is, some people can be redeemed. And that's worth it. But the number of people who are willing to do the redeeming is very small.
Most people don't care about others problems. They don't believe in forgiveness. You screw up once? Your done. You had one chance and you blew it. You're beyond redemption. Most people feel that way.
It takes an incredible amount of character and willpower to be the one who gives others a second chance. The problem with this philosophical debate from a superhero perspective though is that the superheros never actually do anything to help those they fight to actually become better. So the idea of killing the villain makes more sense.
That's why I loved animated justice league. The scene with flash and the "villain" who was off his meds while drinking in the bar was perfect.
Facts too.
We need a punisher in this world
We live in a soft generation
I agree more with Punisher in this case. Daredevil is more a reactive force to protect the innocent while Punisher is proactive in removing the threats.
Daredevil is more reactive in temporarily delaying deaths of the innocent
Ha, funny. Frank reacts most if not all the time, he doesn't seek people before they do something. They got Franks attention after they've done something. Frank is a murderer and that's about it.
This argument has to be ONE OF the overall best dialogues in recent TV history. Excellently written, realistically delivered by DD and Punisher, containing the perfect "push and pull", tension and release.....
Pure freaking gold.
I like how you call them DD and Punisher rather than Charlie and Jon
This is how Batman V Superman should've been.
@@goodjoejoe this is how Batman and Red Hood was
For me i think they're both right. The problem is that they're both too absolute. Frank thinks all criminals deserve death. But some can have redemption. While matt says that they can be redeemed some people don't really deserve to breath. They're points both have flaws,which is why they are both right yet wrong at the same time
Well not all criminals just the truly horrible ones. He doesn’t kill thieves or smugglers unless of course they do drugs dude.
@Aaron Neville Jessica Jones has no morality but whatever she personally feels. She treats some criminals like scimbags and others like victims, based purely on how much she identifies with them.
Aaron Neville bruh why you so toxic
In my opinion if comic books were real then daredevils way is more easier but this is reality and in reality u gotta make the hard choice that punisher makes
@Aaron Neville you are waaay too sensitive ugly man calm thy virginity
Just came here after daredevil had segs with she-hulk. Now I'm convinced that netflix's marvel is in a separate universe
This is one of my favorite scenes in all of media. It made me watch this show after seeing this video and I'm loving it.
Let’s just remember in this same universe baby groot is dancing to mr blue sky
And I love it even more for that reason.
ANYTHING can happen in the Marvel universe.
Lol
The MCU baby
@@darrenwalsh5030 Exactly.That's the way it's always been in the comics,too. You can have The Punisher and Groot,Howard The Duck and Squirrel Girl and so on and so forth all exist in the same universe.
I love that about comics,that you can have all of these different kinds of characters all co-exist in the same universe.
@@JR-ju3kj just like real life! All the genres and different kinds of people rolled into one.
I love how real this scene feels.
And it involves a dude dressed in a devil costume.
People can be dressed like that making real arguments. What I'm surprised is how a blind man can be a tough vigilante.
“You’re unhinged Frank. You’re insane” says the guy wearing a red devil outfit.
That has nothing to do with their argument you are just hating daredevil