i agree because it has the audience thinking who's method works better when it comes to dealing with criminals Same with civil war it got you questioning whether the avengers need to be controlled by government or given free reign to do what they want
i am gutted that Dawn of Justice was not like this Snyder fucked up Batman v Superman 3 years of build up and that is what fans were given as a result the Ultimate edition was slightly better but the main fault was the script and Snyder is at fault becuse he authorized that script to be used for the movie i fear for JL this year due to him being the one that directed it
Right? That movie could have been about the debate of revenge vs justice, and where the line is drawn and how we define each. But it was bogged down with just poor pacing. I hope JL is at least a good action movie.
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever.
Jon Bernthal is perfect as “The Punisher” hopefully he’ll be back in future MCU movies, marvel has stated they wanted him and Charlie cox to return their roles.
@@That_1_BohemianYeah but we created insanity as a definition. Think about what would actually help civilization. Get rid of the evil "another definition we created" and you'll live an easier life, if that's what you want.
@@ras523sar "when does someone come for you to get justice?" Who desides when someone is evil? And how do you prevent it from being an excuse? Daredevil is right, you cant kill because some "bad" people are redeemable and can/or are good people. It's impossible to know. This version of Frank is emotionally unstable and mentally unhealthy. FURY is a 7 deadly sin for a reason, it doesn't justify your actions.
@@That_1_Bohemiano if someone is shooting old women and the police kill them it's unjustified because the killer might have turned their life around? You're forgetting that in the real world if you attempt to kill someone or hurt them in any way shape or form that you're life is forfeit. If you don't believe that someone who takes lives by force and unjustly has the right to have their life taken by force then you're insane. I guess in you're opinion we should just release all the lifers in prison or release people on death row or all the rapists back into society so that they might try and not harm others by default.
this is why I need MCU to dive into street level stuff way more, outside of someone like Spider-Man you wouldn't get this type of dialogue with the Avengers or anyone else lmaoo
@@storm5ds68 i mean all of their villains are crazy psychopaths' to a being out of this world, for the avengers, yeah you try to do "humanely talk" to Thor go ahead, like the only normal convo of the avengers is Stark and Rogers ramble in Age of Ultron while their breaking logs at Clints house.
@@storm5ds68 the avengers aren’t like this in the comics, they deal with people who constantly try to do something to the planet or the universe. You can’t always just sit down and have a philosophical argument with someone when they have an army trying to kill people.
Yep. And when Daredevil called Frank insane at the end, I noticed how both sides are partially right. Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome. That’s precisely what Daredevil does; he has the same people arrested or injured (or killed, in Nobu’s case), and it doesn’t work, yet he continues to do it, expecting a different outcome.
@@hyphen6025 Sometimes that can be good as it fits certain characters as that's what they do but other times, Marvel movies can go WAY over board with that.
@@hyphen6025 There were jokes but they fit the character. Such as Santa Claus joke. Punisher has a very blunt personality so flipping off Daredevil with something so traditional fits him.
@@kaana8421 The Santa line isnt really a joke. Its a saying , comparing hope to a fantasy. A recent MCU joke wouldve been some goofy statement to undercut all the tension.
Well technically this scene is fan service as it is ripped directly from a punisher comic. It's almost an exact replication but yeah this scene is phenomenal and another great scene is the graveyard where Frank and daredevil talk.
Yknow, something tells me that Frank, even as The Punisher is still a Soldier longing for death after the shit he'd been through, at least that's what I got from that line... it's kinda sad...
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter Yeah sometimes people just see too much of the bad things than recognising the good things. The world isn't black and white and not everyone who did wrong was bad and redemption was possible in very bad people too. But Frank is also right about it that sometimes it's just too late to fix it and going back. There are people who will never be able to change or becoming better sometimes at the end of an day they just smile and laugh at others even if they are going to die
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter For an example look at batman. A lot of things could have been avoided if he just have got rid of the Joker who definitely can't be fixed.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter What makes vigilantes who won't kill unrealistic isn't that regular people DON'T believe in not killing, even criminals. Obviously most people have that moral fiber. What makes it unrealistic is that yes, lots of people wouldn't believe in killing, but virtually ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE would never feel the need for vengeance against criminals that is required to become a vigilante. Likewise anyone with enough burning vengeance against criminals, would find it also REMARKABLY difficult to not kill the worst of them. So, I don't see ANYONE 'shitting' on DDs convictions. I see people remarking on the serious implausibility of a VIGILANTE who risks his life and serious jail time, to punish criminals, and then also will only punish them so much, and stop before risking their lives. It's more unrealistic than most of what else happens in these shows. That's all.
@@freighttrain7143 respectfully, I've seen many people just outright say that DD is being an immature idiot. His way is obviously less pragmatic, but the reason he believes what he believes and acts the way he acts is super important for his character. I see people dismissing him completely because he doesn't do things Frank's way. I love their dichotomy, and it's not really an argument with an easy answer. I don't think it's inaccurate while going through multiple comments sections to say that people are outright shitting on his convictions. They're free to do so, obviously, it just annoys me to see, and I'm clearly in the minority. I appreciated the comment I replied to because it was one of the few reasonably worded ones I could find. Thanks for the thoughtful response. 🙏
The way they make their characters sound like they’re actually having an argument instead of repeating memorized lines is amazing. Two amazing, severely underrated actors
You're so godamn right. Even with all the publicity they've gotten in recent years - Bernthal in Punisher, Walking Dead, Shot Caller, The Unforgivable and Charlie Cox in Daredevil, Theory of Everything, Legacy... Even with all of that, these guys are so fucking criminally underrated it's ridiculous. One thing Marvel Netflix did impossibly well, better than pretty much any other superhero franchising - the casting.
@@alexwyckoff8962 Marvel has some insane luck with casting, Im telling ya. Their casting department should be set for life from Disney, their work is that good. The entire first avengers cast, Tom Holland, Charlie Cox, John Bernthal, Vincent D'Onofrio, the entire Gaurdians of the Galaxy crew, both 1 and 2, etc.
not everyone is capable of redemption, but some people are. If someone kills your family etc, and you kill that person, personally I wouldnt blame you for it (even though you probably... shouldnt..) But that doesnt mean that objectively that person is incapable of becoming better, or that that person didnt have a reason to do what they did. Even if it's just that they were paid to do it, as disgusting as that might be. Or in Frank's case, if your family just got in the way of a gang fight (which he thinks is what happened). There's no way that out of the lets say 100 people Punisher kills, every single one of them is an evil rotten bastard down to their core, even if one out of 100 of them really is. You can't know that if you were under the same circumstances you wouldnt have been a criminal yourself. You cant know what lead them down that path, or what they would do if they were given a way out. It's not like he's exclusively going after the big crime bosses either, everyone is fair game to him. Of course in a life or death situation you dont have time to contemplate everyone's sob story, but the Punisher basically goes out of his way to kill people and he's proud of it too.
While that's possible that redemption can occur you have to remember that they stole someone else's life and opportunities to grow. They aren't more worthy of life than the people they killed. Even if they could change they forfeit that chance when they steal it from others. If you kill an innocent you don't deserve the second chance you didn't give them. It's not just about killing. There will always be a difference between killing an innocent person and an evil person.
92Beyo I gotta disagree with you. I think Matt's argument was kind of ridiculous. About hope and light in ppl. You're not gonna change Frank's mind with any type of spiritual shit lol. But I guess it depends on your point of view.
I know right? It's like the director just said. Okay daredevil defend this opinion and punisher defend the other, after about 2 minutes and 50 seconds punch daredevil.
I believe the director told them that the scene had to flow in the most natural way possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Cox and Bernthal improvised their lines.
This is why I'm kinda excited yet scared of the Daredevil joining the Disney+ Shows because I'm kinda curious how they'll handle this but also nervous if they would ruin it. I'll just hope for the best. It's Marvel after all. Things usually work out sooner or later.
@@musyrifo it’s marvel after all?? Bruh I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to marvel at all. Phase 4 is a joke, literally everything in marvel is a joke. Every piece of dialogue is. Every action scene cuts away to some joke. Plus it’s not hard to see the political agendas / woke aspect.
To be honest, I'd be with the Punisher on this one, because do you know what question I would ask Daredevil? How long do innocent people have to grieve and fear for themselves and their loved ones while you wait for evil men to find redemption?
"Wanna talk about santa claus?" I don't know how they do it so well, but I love the way they manage to make it a serious conversation/debate about whether or not murder can be justified, while also being subtly funny in a way that doesn't feel forced or like the writers were expecting the audience to wet themselves laughing.
Daredevil dropped both "you're insane" and "I'll take you down"... lol all they needed was an instance of swapping "kill" with "destroy" and they'd have the trifecta of classic cartoony hero-villain banters. Any yet hey, to their credit, they still pulled it off!
@@hkp7240 he had a protection artifact that made the stare not work the stare would have worked if not bc of said artifact wich was a feather from an angel way,still frank has guilt..his family he blames himself for their death
"What happens the day someone decides you deserve it?" "Tell you what, they better not miss." The fantastic discussion aside, this line always cracked me up.
He is self-aware, he knows that he has done some bad shit, torture, killing innocents especially during his stint in Kandahar, and he blames himself for the death of his family. Ultimately, he believes that he deserves to be punished as well and to be put down. But until that day comes, he is gonna take all the beatings the world gonna give him, and kill all the degenerates on his way to his own demise.
One underrated thing in this scene that also should be worth mentioning is how Frank is not trying to convince Matt but make Matt UNDERSTAND his reasons. He even tells him that “I’m not a bad guy red”. The problem is the trauma Frank holds onto mixed with the fact he isn’t necessarily FULLY wrong about the ideals of criminals and how easy it is for them to get out and to strike again. It’s just the way he handles it.
@@johnLennon255 ehhh, not much. to understand is to realise the place where which the opinion falls from. to convince to change the actions based off what is said
@@johnLennon255no, kinda like with Thanos in Infinity War. We understand why Thanos believes that he need to wipe out half the life in the universe. But do you agree with what he's doing? Kinda like that. Understand his motives but don't agree with them.
@@matheuscruz8574 if I remember correctly Frank said it first in the Punisher meets Daredevil comic a while back by Frank Miller. I don't know the source so you'd have to look it up.
+Max Frankow enlisted men spend a lot of time answering questions lazer quick to sgts. If you spend a few years doing something consistently you would become good at it.
That's because he's right, evil people don't deserve the slightest sympathy. They prey on the weak and people like Frank (i.e. the police,military,and sheepdog civillians) prey on them.
@@asterixobelix20 Who are you trying to impress with your mad grammar skills? I know you think you're better than everyone else because you end every sentence with a period but you just look like an uptight jackass to normal people
"You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear, but what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid?" - Red Hood
Why is it that I get the feeling that Batman just wants to play cat and mouse with criminals? Like he just throws them in prison knowing they'll go back and boom, he's got another game night again to satisfy his desires to take them out. Damn the victims of these criminals, the bat wants to play.
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x more like batman trying to fix the system by the book with his only friend Jim in a f*cked up city. Both of them trust each other to the core and know both of them won't crack. If they did that means they lost the self righteousness to protect the city. He know murder is a crime that is the end and non redeemable. Plus batman is a detective not an executioner. If he wants to play the cat and mouse, he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good.
@@carenthusiasm345 "he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good." *Joker exists*
@@tauhid9983 It was a Punisher line in one of his early appearances from the 80s (in a Frank Miller Daredevil comic), then a Joker line, then a Punisher line again.
@@geoffreysorkin5774 shit I didn't know. I doubt alan moore copied it from frank miller or anything lol. But I guess that's the running theme with bad guys eh? lol
Alex USTP I’m glad that I wasn’t the only person that seen how The Punisher versus Daredevil debate is similar to how people that support death penalty versus the people that are against the death penalty.
If it was your love one depends on your believe cause some want them forever in jail and some want them dead it should be left to the victims families if they live or die
Frank: I'm a better father than you! Matt: What? Frank: You got a broken woman, a weak boy, look around and see what you've caused Matt: Now hang on a second
Holy crap. Writers who obviously understand the characters and who have read the source material were behind this scene. Sad that Disney has abandoned that approach with their current crop of shows.
LOL that's 100% NOT true at all as Disney writers CAN be this good as This show was made and written UNDER Disney. You do realize this WAS a disney show FOR netflix, right? And disney writers in general everywhere CAN learn and do good to do better completely and entirely for their shows as they've stated they're going to learn from what they've done to do BETTER than before.
@@Gadget-Walkmen Yeah, but people in comment sections have this insatiable need to be walking cliches and one of them involves saying "Disney bad" so they'll never admit that fact just because it contradicts their agenda and complaints even though they're still gonna watch whatever disney comes out with.
@@disturbedrenegade9815 basically yeah, Disney haters are the worst when they act like this and not realize this show came out UNDER Disney. I have no doubt disney plus is gonna make a great show for Daredevil completely!
Afflicted15 Both metaphorically and literally. Matt is blind literally, but also does not see that some people are beyond redemption, while Frank is a veteran literally, but also has experience in seeing that pure evil exists, and that evil will never change
@Avenging Demon no. Its very subjective. There is no right answer. Every case with different scenarios need to be looked at carefully, and then make a fair decision to both parties. But us humans are too impatient for that, so we decide the easier one, hence the law system.
@@lex_rodriguez why? Every person he kills is irredeemable, and they are sick murderers, rapists freaks. Some people deserve to die for their sins, often because they're too numerous to count. You probably live life hoping the best of people, and that's nice, I wish I could. But I can't, I've seen the shittyness of people and how they won't change. I don't think all criminals should die and I don't think all murderers should die, so do end up repenting and feeling regret and sadness at what they did. But then there are the ones who take pride in it, they deserve nothing
Metalhead2968 4 Life That’s the thing. You agree with killing but also oppose the thought of killing. That’s why this debate is subjective. There is no correct answer. You can’t have the idea of: Kill this guy because, don’t kill this guy because. They have both killed, thus both deserve punishment. Also, nearly 7/10 of humans on this doomed planet is shitty. Only on a rare occasion will you meet a genuinely kind person. Stay safe during this pandemic my good sir.
Maybe him and Spider-Man could meet each other and they have similar argument. I mean DD and Spider-Man have the similar ideologies that go against Punisher’s
Even though i fcking dig Jon Berntal as a Punisher, deep in my heart I don't wish to see him ruined by Disney. They have no guts to make Punisher with the same rating as Netflix did. All we gonna get , is movie for kids and Chinese with 12+rate. Mark my words when they gonna ruin Daredevil. Scene from Spiderman already confirmed my concerns, it's all about fun now and nothing serious. Hawkeye , in the meantime ruined Wilson Fisk already . Scene looks like some avengers movie (explosion near character, throwback for 15 meters and hit by a car and not a single drop of blood, like nothing even happened to him) that's a Circus. P.S: even Jon Bernthal said he won't return as a Punisher unless Disney willing to make changes in ratings. He don't wana ruin his character.
@boobie maniac Only if Disney would give back filming rights to Netflix, otherwise it's gonna be horsesh.t, and Berntal knows it as a fun of Punisher character so he will not take part of ruining it.
@@DoctorDewgong average goody two shoes daredevil thinking things in life are like in tv shows that everyone can be fixed,hope? lol ask about hope to the victims of criminals the only hope u gonna get is for the criminals to pay one way or another
That's my favorite part too. He gets hoarse . I think because he's not talking about other men. He's talking about himself too. He wants redemption for himself as well.
"You ever doubt yourself Frank? "Not even for a second" This is what I love about The Punisher. He feels no remorse for what he did. His sense of justice overwhelms his conscience. Nothing can stop him once he decides someone should die. EDIT: I’m not saying I 100% agree with Punisher’s beliefs. What I admire most about him is that he never doubts himself. Most heroes would feel conflicted about their choices, but not him. He never goes back on his word except for a really compelling reason (like the time he nearly killed John Pilgrim but ultimately decided against it).
I think that the Penance Stare makes u feel whatever your “victims” felt when you hurted/killed them I think that it doesnt work on Frank because he doesnt feel remorse, And if he was a “Bad” guy he would feel like everything bad that happens to him is deserved He doesnt feel guilty for his actions, He actually believes that everyone he killed deserved it, And if he “feels” their pain, He doesnt care, For him they are scum on the earth that doesnt deserve to live
The Penance Stare's power and judgement depends on how much the Rider wants to punish the sinner and its more than possible Ghost Rider allowed Frank to live as the only difference between them was Frank wasn't supernaturally powered. He was merely shocked that all the people Frank killed were evil and that he doesn't regret killing anyone as most people would even if they were evil.
So did Daredevil whose father was murdered and he lost his eyesight. That didn't make him bitter. He saw the difference between vengeance and justice and chose to do the right thing. If he wanted, he could be far more deadlier than Punisher. Would have brought the entire mob and mafia of New York to their knees single handedly but he chose not to.
@@MrMadhusudhan45 totally different. Matt's dad died when he was blind and he was a kid. Still innocent. Frank was already a grown man in the military and had his family brutally murdered in front of him.
Let's check out more comics information: • Elektra died in front of him and thar didn't made him bitter (ok, just a little, but he didn't turned into a Punisher) • Karen died in front of him • Foggy "died" in front of him • Blindspot (he is like a son to DD) was blinded by a serial killer in "front" of him (he hearded everything) • Milla Donovan got crazy little by little in front of him • Heather Glenn committed suicide after a phone call with him • His personal life was literally destroyed on Born Again • He broke up with Kirsten McDuffie on a terrible way • He was possessed by a demon and had to "kill" himself for stopping him All of this and much more are daredevil's life tragedies, and he never turned up to what Frank is. Daredevil is a character *made* for being destroyed and *always* get up. That's the main difference about Daredevil and Punisher: Red gets up, Frank stays down.
The most human exchange between the hero & the anti-hero that you will ever watch, see, witness or encounter. Take your pick. This was so spot on. You have to appreciate it no matter what. It doesn’t get more real than this.
why couldnt Batman v Superman have been like this as well i am a marvel and DC fan but i felt let down by DOJ tbh the ultimate edition was a bit better but i ultimately believe Zack Snyder fucked it up because it is him who has final say on the script and i still fear for JL this year with him directing it
I wished Season 2 was more like this. While I loved Elektra, her and The Hand took the spot light away from Punisher. I cared way more for Frank's revenge and his arguments with Matt than The Hand's master plan (which was underwhelming in Defenders)
My favorite part is how it actually sounds like 2 people talking like you can actually imagine people having this argument. The writing and the actors portraying it. Perfection
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever
Theyre both wrong. You dont give a man a second chance to kill you and your children and you dont kill him either. You kneecap him or cut of his hands or eliminate his ability to be a threat. You make it so he cant do it again. Killing is unnecessary most of the time. You get the same results by making so they simply cant do it again but are still alive to think about it. Bullet in the knew. Dislocate his joints so hell be lucky to ever regain feeling. Shatter his legs. Cut off his primary hand. Take out his eyes, etc. Ironic punishment or poetic justice. You decide
While there are those that have changed, what about those that can't change their ways? Daredevil sees good in all people, which is absolutely fucking retarded. While there are those that have a POSSIBLY of changing, his logic risks innocent people's live all because of Daredevil's stupid ideology to get murdered, raped etc. While Punisher's way makes sure that no innocent person get hurt by putting down criminals that deserve to die in his point of view.
Acute Cloudd yeah SOME people really can change... but how about some that unable to? how many victim has to suffer from them before they finally change?
+Thossaphorn Asawachinachot One thing that can then complicate things even further is that if one builds a culture, where the common mindset is “once a bad guy, always a bad guy”, then this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy that increases the amount of irredeemable monsters in society, the very thing which is often provided as proof that Punisher’s methods are needed in the first place. (a bunch of extra thoughts below): If a person has done something horrible in the past, but still feels a grain of genuine guilt and conflict, then being surrounded by people who basically voice the message of “men like you can never change” is not going to help him. If anything, that might convince him even further that he cannot change, making it even more likely that he will not even try to get off of his current path. In those hypothetical cases, then that could still increase the amount of people he/she hurts before being caught/killed. Similarly, Punisher definitely has an important point when he says that the justice system is screwed up, sick with corruption, and/or inept. But at the same time, if everyone believes as he does that becoming a vigilante who executes criminals is the only choice left, then that only increases the chances of us having a future where nobody even tries to fix our justice system. In short, the justice system might become broken beyond repair, but possibly only because everyone treats it as such. It is kind of like Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein”, with the one difference being that it involves a man/system who actually is somewhat of a monster having its destiny of becoming an even worse monster (or at least not turning good) further sealed, whereas Frankenstein’s creature actually was innocent and child-like, only to have its fate of growing into a monster be sealed by society treating him as one. I can sympathize with both of their points of view. I think what sums up the differences between Punisher and Daredevil’s mindsets is that Daredevil is willing to take a risk, for better or worse, in hopes that the door for a better society/humanity can be opened. Punisher is convinced that it is not possible for society/humanity to get much better, so he does what he feels will at least guarantee that it cannot get worse than it already is.
Acute Cloudd No, Punisher can be right. In the real world if the cops tell you surrender you do so or get shot. Matt has a point that they should *try* to bring criminals to justice, but it’s foolish to say no killing them no matter what. Sometimes it’s them or some innocent family.
I think this season could’ve been perfection if they took out everything surrounding The Hand and just focused on DD and Punisher along with their moral clash
i went back to watch daredevil just for the punisher scenes, literally skipped over everything with the hand i didnt care lol punisher just meshes perfectly in this season
2:15 admittedly though, Daredevil just gave punisher's argument the best defense "there's something broken in you you can't fix" that is punishers whole argument, that there are some people who are simply too crazy and too evil to live (both sides made good points in my opinion)
0:35 Conversely, Frank gave Matt’s argument the best defense. “You shot up a hospital”, “Yeah nobody got hurt who didn’t deserve it.” How can you trust Frank to always know who does and doesn’t “deserve it”, is he psychic? Because if he’s ever wrong, that’s death, not the hospital or jail.
@@mackattack315 Frank isn’t just spraying and praying. He’s arguably one of the most well trained and deadly accurate soldiers in the world. It isn’t so much about knowing who deserves it or not, as it is he quite literally knows exactly who he’s gunning for before he even takes action. If he doesn’t wanna hit someone, he’s not gonna hit them.
Idk about that one Seth. Daredevil didn't exactly didn't write Frank off as a nut job who would never see reason, he just identified who he was at that moment. Given what Red said I'm willing to bet he wanted a chance to rehabilitate Frank or get him to see things from his perspective. Remember how he said there's a little good in everyone, even in Frank. Basically I believe that Daredevil's philosophy is that no one's ever too broken to be thrown away.
Yeah. I'm on Punisher on this that's the problem about fighting for Truth and Justice in the superhero world. The battle never ends. It's an unending game of cat and mouse with the hero bringing the villain to prison only for them to get out do the same thing again. Joker probably said it well in Injustice: God's Among Us. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah but you need both kinds of people. The truth is, some people can be redeemed. And that's worth it. But the number of people who are willing to do the redeeming is very small. Most people don't care about others problems. They don't believe in forgiveness. You screw up once? Your done. You had one chance and you blew it. You're beyond redemption. Most people feel that way. It takes an incredible amount of character and willpower to be the one who gives others a second chance. The problem with this philosophical debate from a superhero perspective though is that the superheros never actually do anything to help those they fight to actually become better. So the idea of killing the villain makes more sense. That's why I loved animated justice league. The scene with flash and the "villain" who was off his meds while drinking in the bar was perfect.
This argument has to be ONE OF the overall best dialogues in recent TV history. Excellently written, realistically delivered by DD and Punisher, containing the perfect "push and pull", tension and release..... Pure freaking gold.
I would definitely side with Punisher on this one. The problem for fighting for Truth and Justice in the world of superhero is that the battle never ends. The hero brings the villain to jail only for the villain to go out and cause chaos once again. I think Joker from Injustice 1 said it well. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah, but the problem is that Punisher's methods can also end up killing innocents or create more criminals who may end up taking the place of the guys he killed. (Like a never ending cycle)
@@anjaneyasreetrout2444 sorry for the late reply just got back home from work. That is true IF there is anyone from that world that can replace the bad guys. Honestly the no-kill rule is for superheroes who are either naive or just won't see they're error. In a crossover between Marvel and DC when Punisher was about to kill the Joker, Batman arrived and just allows him to run away. In my opinion the Cons far outweighs the Pros. While people will call anti-heroes psychopaths, murderers, or among other thing. They do what no other heroes could never do. End the War between villains and heroes. Of course that is if anyone who has the guts to step up on the big table and took his/her place. Then good luck.
@@arkhamknight9001 I get your perspective, but if we’re talking about the Punisher specifically, he literally at the end of this very episode, destroys the biker gang’s bikes at the bar across the street, inciting them into charging the apartment complex full of innocents, all just to escape Daredevil who was kicking his ass. And who has to save the day? Daredevil
Their ideologies were explained perfectly in this scene: Daredevil believes that every human being, no matter how deplorable, still have some good in them, and thus should not be killed. The Punisher believes that the people he puts down have no good left in them, and thus are not worth letting live. This is why Daredevil is one of the best shows i've ever watched.
The way when they talk over each other while arguing yet you can still hear them because the actors delivered their lines and gave each other room to be heard. Just wow
1:42 - 1:48 best sequence in my opinion. Not only their arguments, but you can see how the actors did it brilliantly, interrupting, yelling at each other, agreeing that they disagree. Pure gold.
To me, this makes Matt’s character arc in season 3 so much more powerful. Right at the moment he beats Kingpin and is wanting to snap his neck, Matt stops himself from doing it. Probably not because he thinks there’s good in Fisk but because he knows there is good in himself that would be destroyed if he followed through with it. Amazing writing and an amazing show.
Also later in this season Daredevil tells Frank that he’s willing to kill, but only this one time, and Frank explains to him that’s not how it works, once you do it once you’re a killer forever. That also probably helped Daredevil stop himself from killing Fisk.
@@ErikDayne exactly Matt can kill just once but that isn't how it works. Kingpin even stated that "the more one kills, the more easier it becomes" Frank is the living example. An individual who did so much killing, he's beyond saving
So basically Daredevil put innocent lives aside so that he could feel good about himself for “not falling to their level” even though killing a crime lord would do nothing but help people in the long run. How selfish of him.
I believe that people who belive in redemption for evil people are admirable, because they have an optimism that should be envied, but their optimism is also to a fault because they underestimate how evil people can be. People can change, for the better even and I believe that, but how many innocent people have to live on in fear and grief knowing that evil people can torment and take away their livelihood of themselves and their loved and be left unchecked.
From what I’ve seen from other fictional stories, change and redemption is possible for anyone, but it comes down to it being a choice; the villain in question may be asking “why would I want to change, I’m fine with who I am,” redemption is possible; but it can’t be forced
Ever since I was a kid, I always believed in the good in humanity, that people can change for the better. It's when you're young when you tend to underestimate how evil people can be. But then one day, I talked with a police officer who often visited my mom's cafe, and when I told him that I was bullied he told me that there were 3 kinds of people that do evil: 1. People who do evil things because they don't know it's evil. 2. People who do evil things and know it's wrong, but they don't care. 3. People who do evil things and know it's wrong, and worse, they enjoy doing it.
I like how Frank even in the middle of an argument actually says things like "Whats that?" and "What?" in a genuine manner, like whilst they totally disagree Franks still listening to him.
That's the one thing preventing it from being a realistic argument, if it was realistic they'd just be ignoring the other while they try to talk, and yell over each other the whole time. Ruined my immersion.
@@JustapErson Everything that which you’ve said and saying right now only proves and shows that YOUR WRONG in everything you’ve been saying here as EVERYTHING about the conversation and the scene was a COMPLETE “realistic argument” entirely as it was realistic as realistic can get entirely. It WAS completely realistic throughout as you don’t need to have them “jUst bE iGnOriNg tHe oThEr wHilE thEy trY tO tALk, ANd yELl oVeR eaCh oVer tHe wHoLe aRguMeNt” lol not even close no. Both Daredevil and The Punisher are INTELLIGENT men who are trying to convince each other that they’re side is the right side so they CAN’T simply “ignore each other and talk”, they need to LISTEN to each other and try to counter their arguments that which they’ve LAYED out for each other. That’s what makes the whole discussion argument between them so compelling AND realistic, because they’re both trying to RATIONALLY counter each other’s arguments with their own line of reason and makes the audience WANTS to listen to what they have to say. This is PEAK realism discussion argument between two smart people, not just two Buffon on the street having a drunk argument. It’s one of the MOST immersion gripping and engaging scene of all time and absolutely NOTHING about it “rUiNeD” ANYONE’S “immersion” in the slightest when they’re not looking for nonsensical reasons to complain about something over nothing. Lol at you BADLY saying “rUiNeD mY iMmeRsIoN”, yes because you made up a nonsensical scenario for you to ALLOW it on yourself for you to even DARE it “rUiN” ANY kind of your weak “ImMerSIoN”. It didn’t “rUiN” ANYONE else’s “immersion” at all in the slightest because EVERYONE but YOU here is sensible which you have clearly proven you are entirely not here at all based on the what you’re saying as this rooftop scene is pitch PERFECT throughout as the most immersive scene ever made in a superhero show/movie. You’re just whining for literally NO reason on trying to find something to complain about here, nothing more or else here. Just stop as you’re COMPLETELY wrong here.
There’s something so engaging about the acting and writing. I love how it’s so realistic and they’re talking over each other. Both these dudes are giving it their all. This show is so compelling, I can’t stop watching it.
Thats the acting. Notice that theyre breathing and talking at thr same time. I think that is the reason why it sounds so realistic. But the lines they say have to be realistic too.
There’s nothing wrong with something feeling like a comic book at all, these ARE comic book characters after all and some of the best arcs of this show ARE best on comic book storylines here as you can make comic characters sound EXACTLY like real people all the time. No idea on where your coming from when you say but you’re completely wrong to do and say so!
@@Gadget-Walkmen He's not wrong at all. The comic books are obviously a much inferior way of telling stories, the dialogue is not written nearly as well. Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner. Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation, hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted.
@@JustapErson He IS wrong entirely AND you are as well as NOTHING you've said here makes ANY sense at all as there are COUNTLESS comic books that have VASTLY superior style of storytelling when your properly tell a story WITHIN that medium such as Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Batman: Hush, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all WAY better than their live actions and animated film counterparts because of how well the story is told here. You BADLY saying that "tHe cOmIC bOoKs Are ObIVoUsLY a MuCH inFerIoR wAy oF teLlIng StORiEs" is 100% WRONG as NOTHING about comic books are "inFeRioR" in ANY way if you actually bothered to see how fantastic ways stories have been told through mediums. "the dialogue is not written nearly as well." LOL Just no. spoken like someone whose NEVER read a comic as there is countless comic books with phenomenal dialogue that's better than even movies like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ultimate Spider-man, The Killing Joke, Daredevil: Born Again. You have NO idea on what you're talking about at all when you say this nonsense of "tHe dIaLOgue iS nOt WrItTeN nEaRlY aS wElL.", lol just no. The dialogue is written PHENOMENALLY and spectacularly well and done. The Dialogue is written JUST as well if you actually bothered to see how well written they all are. The only thing you've established here is that you've NEVER read a comic book in your life or you completely failed to understand how excellently well done they are for you to be spewing out this nonsense right here entirely in ANY way, that' for certain. "Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner." This scene isn't pulled from ANY specific comic at all and just because it's live action, doesn't mean it's good at all. There are plenty of comic book that are WAY better than it's live action and animated counterparts like The Killing Joke, Watchmen, Batman: Hush, as I've mentioned beforehand and the source material of the comic are WAY better overall in comparison. The "probably clear winner" is whatever is done RIGHT within it's own medium correctly as there is such thing as a BAD adaption, which you fail to notice here whenever you say anything here at all. "Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation," There is no "cLeArLy hErE" AT ALL as all it matters is WHAT the context is for one to be better than the other in the SPECIFIC situation you're talking about here. Inspiration and adaption can ONLY be as good as whatever they're doing within their own medium, that's it. "hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted." Obviously whatever Marvel does is inspired by comics than directly adapting any specific storyline EXACTLY as it was but like I said, Marvel does a excellent job at doing what they do through inspiration from what's been done in THEIR specific context, just like other Cinematic Universes should do so as well. In other cases, adapted stories can be done FANTASTICALLY well from adaption of any comic storyline and it can be just as amazing as any inspired by storyline, like I said, it all depends on what's been done on a case by case scenario which you don't get AT ALL here in the slightest.
I REALLY like how the Punisher can't look Daredevil in the eye in all of this. Knowing he is blind, he freely makes it show that he doesn't feel justified with his body language. He moves around, does other things, and even when sitting in front of him, he looks side to side instead of looking straight at him. I LOVE that.
@@the8u9 he kinda does the same thing in walking dead and wolf of wall street where he looks off to the side when he's annoyed at someone. He probably does the same thing in real life lol
@@darrenwalsh5030 Exactly.That's the way it's always been in the comics,too. You can have The Punisher and Groot,Howard The Duck and Squirrel Girl and so on and so forth all exist in the same universe. I love that about comics,that you can have all of these different kinds of characters all co-exist in the same universe.
I love how much of an emphasis the show gave to daredevils ideals of not taking a human life. The expression, the desparation in his voice to make punisher understand was immense in this scene
For me i think they're both right. The problem is that they're both too absolute. Frank thinks all criminals deserve death. But some can have redemption. While matt says that they can be redeemed some people don't really deserve to breath. They're points both have flaws,which is why they are both right yet wrong at the same time
@Aaron Neville Jessica Jones has no morality but whatever she personally feels. She treats some criminals like scimbags and others like victims, based purely on how much she identifies with them.
In my opinion if comic books were real then daredevils way is more easier but this is reality and in reality u gotta make the hard choice that punisher makes
It's not just that,as someone else on the comments section here said,Frank doesn't care who DD is under the mask.Some people would have taken DD's mask off out of sheer curiousness just to see who he really is but it didn't make any difference to The Punisher.
What I love most about this scene is that it reflects the conversation Matt and Foggy had in the first season but while those two were discussing the dangers of vigilantism Frank and Matt are here discussing the principles and morality behind it
Insanity: repeating an act the exact same way and expecting a different outcome each time. Daredevil: punches the same criminals over and over and expects them to change.
@Literal_Potato He still fucking died, regenerating doesn't change the fact that he killed. He knew he would die, his enemy healing doesn't change his actions.
@@theoutlawking9123 There's a lot of distance between kicking someone off a roof in a fight to save someone and going on a crusade where you leave no enemies alive like Frank.
Pure Fun and Stopmotions Even my younger brother wasn't that impressed. I made him watch 'New Batman/Superman Adventures' right after and he got hooked on that instead.
"People change. Or they die before they do." - Orochimaru "People don't change. They only become more of who they truly are." - Eagle Flies This is something I've been thinking about a lot.
both are bullshit. First, is just a cheap line try to sound deep. what ? next thing you would tell me water is wet ? it is imply "People always change" but there are people who never learn for shit. That is where the statement is a bullshit, It just prevent the denies by saying "they just doesn't have the chance to change" Second is utter stupid. Thing change people. Even science prove this, even our brain cell will not say the same. It will change 100% to new and the old cell will gone completely after years.
*In an alternate universe* Batman: What about you Jason, what happens the day someone decides you deserve it? Red Hood: I'll tell you what, they better not miss.
@@ariqsyafwan4987 Batman : But would that makes you better? What's the difference between you and them? Red Hood : Maybe sometimes, people need to get their hands dirty to cleanse this wretched world
@@Bouya_Harumichi Red Hood: simple, These murderers kill innocent people either to get a point across, fear, etc. Me I protect the innocent by killing those murderers to deter other would be murderers
I love how anti-heroes always make so much more sense when arguing the killing thing with heroes. Both Peace Keeper and Punisher acknowledge that the criminals get out and just kill again.
I agree with Frank on the fact that not everybody has the “flicker of light” in them and are totally evil. But I would prefer Matts approach in dealing with them
They both have good points it’s just Punisher takes it a bit far. Punisher does it to just about whoever he deems as such. Some people that may have actually had a chance at redemption. While Daredevil may give them a chance and those that take it good, but he leaves an impression. That to those who don’t change you will he right back here looking at me.
When the Punisher disemboweled and hung a man from a tree, and beat a woman for half an hour before throwing her out the 50th story window, because they were both involved in trafficking young girls as slaves, he did the right thing. Unforgivable crimes bring out the Punisher. If he guns down a down on his luck liqour store robber, that's when I agree with Daredevil.
Think about the colossal amount of lives that could have been saved if Batman dealt with the Joker like the Punisher would. There is a certain point where this is no redemption for someone. To pretend that is never the case is also just as insane as killing all criminals.
Amazing scene, amazing writing. Amazing acting. Perfect philosophical talk. You know why this season was so successful? You genuinely understand where each guy is coming from. Frank isn’t the villain… he’s the antagonist. Big difference.
God damn right, only thing i didnt like is when he shot grotto at the hospital,there's so many innocent people at that place that couldve been caught, good thing no one did
I wouldn't even say he's that. He's very violent-minded, I'll give you that. But he's still a hero. The people he kills are ultra scumbags, after all. Even kills corrupt cops.
@@dr.josemanalo2141 He was a marine force recon lieutenant and an excellent marksman, he knew what he was doing. They mentioned it in this scene actually about how "nobody got hurt who didn't deserve it" those other people were never in danger there except Grotto because Frank is accurate and very well trained
God the emotion of these two. Both respect and hate each other. till the end part of calling him crazy, they were fighting like old friends who after years apart met don't recognize each other.
I think if they want to have a rated R side in the MCU then Punisher's upcoming show is the perfect starting point. He dropped an F-bomb in this scene like it was no big deal so they could continue that in his show.
Everyone pointing out how the dialogue sounds like an actual conversation proves that A. Both actors are incredible and B. That whoever wrote the dialogue is a fucking artist at their work
@Wicker 2 Or maybe he doesn't think that someone being broken in some unfixable way necessarily means they're pure evil. Or maybe being in a heated argument with a murderer who has him chained made him say something out of ire to offend Frank that he doesn't _really_ believe. Y'know, there's more than one possible interpretation lol
@Wicker 2 I don't think he is a hypocrite. I think he is just trying to implore Punisher to start believing again that there is a glimmer of goodness in everyone. Like the Punisher has almost completely blocked it out, but it is still there. And he just says "You can't be fixed and you're a nutjob" to compare Punisher to the criminals. Like "if you think this, then you are the bad guy as well"
@Wicker 2 Daredevil is trying to make Frank look like the hypocrite, but it doesn't work. that is what I am trying to say. Like he is saying that he is just as bad as the criminals, and he deserves a chance as well. But he doesn't expect Frank to be so nonchalant about knowing that he is a horrible person.
![Punisher Prison Fight Scene | Daredevil (2x9) [HD]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/d2M5ObsKw4Y/mqdefault.jpg)
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
This is one of the best philosophical debates in television history.
i agree because it has the audience thinking who's method works better when it comes to dealing with criminals
Same with civil war it got you questioning whether the avengers need to be controlled by government or given free reign to do what they want
It's also cool because they get to the core of each argument, and attack both head on.
i am gutted that Dawn of Justice was not like this Snyder fucked up Batman v Superman 3 years of build up and that is what fans were given as a result the Ultimate edition was slightly better but the main fault was the script and Snyder is at fault becuse he authorized that script to be used for the movie i fear for JL this year due to him being the one that directed it
Right? That movie could have been about the debate of revenge vs justice, and where the line is drawn and how we define each. But it was bogged down with just poor pacing.
I hope JL is at least a good action movie.
That's why Punisher made such a great antagonist to Daredevil, because of the deep moral debate.
When the two smartest kids in class have different answers
Love that
Teachers dealing with bullies
when two bullied kid are discussing about school shooting
And they're both right
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever.
"You hit them, they get back up. I hit them and they _stay_ down."
Yep, that's definitely something the Punisher would say.
i think he did, in a comic book. they already had this argument in a old issue.
Rob "Punisher: Welcome back, frank" to be exact
Ian Greene "Vengeance has consumed you, it's consuming them,...I'm done letting it consume me" - something Black Panther would say
one of the best quotes in history :)
Ian Greene "I AM BATMAN" SOMETHING THAT BATMAN DEFINITELY WOULD SAY
I can’t be the only one who loves how the punisher calls daredevil “red”
When you say goodbye to your communist friend: "See you around red"
I honest to god love it
Sort of unrelated but his voice seems a lot more high-pitched in this show
Lemmeask you sumptin Red
Jon Bernthal is perfect as “The Punisher” hopefully he’ll be back in future MCU movies, marvel has stated they wanted him and Charlie cox to return their roles.
"you hit em and they get back up, I hit em and they stay down"
I got chills
Yeah but did you miss the part where Daredevil points out it's insane? Because it is
@@That_1_BohemianYeah but we created insanity as a definition. Think about what would actually help civilization. Get rid of the evil "another definition we created" and you'll live an easier life, if that's what you want.
@@ras523sar "when does someone come for you to get justice?"
Who desides when someone is evil? And how do you prevent it from being an excuse?
Daredevil is right, you cant kill because some "bad" people are redeemable and can/or are good people. It's impossible to know.
This version of Frank is emotionally unstable and mentally unhealthy. FURY is a 7 deadly sin for a reason, it doesn't justify your actions.
@@That_1_Bohemian all he did was call him insane and gave naive answer to franks unwavering based logic
@@That_1_Bohemiano if someone is shooting old women and the police kill them it's unjustified because the killer might have turned their life around? You're forgetting that in the real world if you attempt to kill someone or hurt them in any way shape or form that you're life is forfeit. If you don't believe that someone who takes lives by force and unjustly has the right to have their life taken by force then you're insane. I guess in you're opinion we should just release all the lifers in prison or release people on death row or all the rapists back into society so that they might try and not harm others by default.
I kinda love how they don't "sound like superheros". They sound like people.
this is why I need MCU to dive into street level stuff way more, outside of someone like Spider-Man you wouldn't get this type of dialogue with the Avengers or anyone else lmaoo
@@storm5ds68 i mean all of their villains are crazy psychopaths' to a being out of this world, for the avengers, yeah you try to do "humanely talk" to Thor go ahead, like the only normal convo of the avengers is Stark and Rogers ramble in Age of Ultron while their breaking logs at Clints house.
@@storm5ds68 the avengers aren’t like this in the comics, they deal with people who constantly try to do something to the planet or the universe. You can’t always just sit down and have a philosophical argument with someone when they have an army trying to kill people.
I LOVE THAT PART. NO LIKE F KING DISNEY HAYKEYE SERIE
@@storm5ds68 that is why daredevil and kingpin are in the mcu now!
This is one of the most realistic arguments in tv history. They cut each other off and they stumble on their words and it’s amazing
Definitely. And so intense. And they both have good points
Take notes Aaron Sorkin.
Kellz Main yep these two are amazing as their characters
@@EdVarkarion Aaron Sorkin doesn't need any notes he's excellent at writing philosophical discussions and arguments in his shows and movies!
Yep. And when Daredevil called Frank insane at the end, I noticed how both sides are partially right. Insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome.
That’s precisely what Daredevil does; he has the same people arrested or injured (or killed, in Nobu’s case), and it doesn’t work, yet he continues to do it, expecting a different outcome.
"So you just put em in the morgue"
"You goddamn right i do"
The confidence in this man speech is truly unbelievable
No sign of denial in that quote alone that is
Idk if that's how you use hands down
Lmao the Punisher rules.
They couldn’t have casted Frank Castle with anyone better than Bernthal and I will live and die with that opinion
Sorry to ruin the devils number or likes
No fan service, no flashy fight choreography, no dramatic score, just two damn good actors delivering a damn good argument in a damn good tv show.
Most importantly, no cheesy one-line jokes
@@hyphen6025 Sometimes that can be good as it fits certain characters as that's what they do but other times, Marvel movies can go WAY over board with that.
@@hyphen6025 There were jokes but they fit the character. Such as Santa Claus joke. Punisher has a very blunt personality so flipping off Daredevil with something so traditional fits him.
@@kaana8421 The Santa line isnt really a joke. Its a saying , comparing hope to a fantasy. A recent MCU joke wouldve been some goofy statement to undercut all the tension.
Well technically this scene is fan service as it is ripped directly from a punisher comic. It's almost an exact replication but yeah this scene is phenomenal and another great scene is the graveyard where Frank and daredevil talk.
DD:
Killing people is bad!
Punisher:
Letting psychopaths live is bad!
Comic book writers:
Writing new villains every week is hard!
So, nobody wins at the end of the day?
:(
@@unknownguy8687 So Daredevil wins because you don't have to constantly write new villains if they don't die.
Back in the day Marvel and DC had tons of villains. Blame all the readers who stopped caring for episodic media.
@@RIDDICK0911 you mean dying and coming back to life again?
@@THE_BIGGEST_HATER no, I mean c- d- and e- listers. Dying and coming back is just another sin of serialized narrative.
Frank "...look around..."
DDevil "really, bruh?"
Well to be fair, Frank dosent know that daredevil is blind.
😂😂😂
Matt: congratulations you’ve played yourself
@@sebaslikesanimations1447 it's fixed
Frank “What have you seen?”
"What happens when someone decides you deserve it?"
"I tell you what, they better not miss."
Laconian savagery
"How do you shoot the devil in the back?" *Holds up fucked up looking hand* "What if you miss?"
"If you hit me you better give it your best shot because if I get back up I'll eat you."
Silver Excel Poor Shane. At least both of Bernthal's characters are consistent, they're nutjobs.
Yknow, something tells me that Frank, even as The Punisher is still a Soldier longing for death after the shit he'd been through, at least that's what I got from that line... it's kinda sad...
Matt is right that there is good even in evil people but Frank is right that these people would never try and bring out that good in themselves
Most reasonable take. I hate seeing people shit on Daredevil's convictions.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter Yeah sometimes people just see too much of the bad things than recognising the good things. The world isn't black and white and not everyone who did wrong was bad and redemption was possible in very bad people too. But Frank is also right about it that sometimes it's just too late to fix it and going back. There are people who will never be able to change or becoming better sometimes at the end of an day they just smile and laugh at others even if they are going to die
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter For an example look at batman. A lot of things could have been avoided if he just have got rid of the Joker who definitely can't be fixed.
@@JazzyUnderscoreTrumpeter What makes vigilantes who won't kill unrealistic isn't that regular people DON'T believe in not killing, even criminals. Obviously most people have that moral fiber.
What makes it unrealistic is that yes, lots of people wouldn't believe in killing, but virtually ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE would never feel the need for vengeance against criminals that is required to become a vigilante.
Likewise anyone with enough burning vengeance against criminals, would find it also REMARKABLY difficult to not kill the worst of them.
So, I don't see ANYONE 'shitting' on DDs convictions. I see people remarking on the serious implausibility of a VIGILANTE who risks his life and serious jail time, to punish criminals, and then also will only punish them so much, and stop before risking their lives.
It's more unrealistic than most of what else happens in these shows. That's all.
@@freighttrain7143 respectfully, I've seen many people just outright say that DD is being an immature idiot. His way is obviously less pragmatic, but the reason he believes what he believes and acts the way he acts is super important for his character. I see people dismissing him completely because he doesn't do things Frank's way. I love their dichotomy, and it's not really an argument with an easy answer. I don't think it's inaccurate while going through multiple comments sections to say that people are outright shitting on his convictions. They're free to do so, obviously, it just annoys me to see, and I'm clearly in the minority. I appreciated the comment I replied to because it was one of the few reasonably worded ones I could find. Thanks for the thoughtful response. 🙏
The way they make their characters sound like they’re actually having an argument instead of repeating memorized lines is amazing. Two amazing, severely underrated actors
You're so godamn right. Even with all the publicity they've gotten in recent years - Bernthal in Punisher, Walking Dead, Shot Caller, The Unforgivable and Charlie Cox in Daredevil, Theory of Everything, Legacy... Even with all of that, these guys are so fucking criminally underrated it's ridiculous.
One thing Marvel Netflix did impossibly well, better than pretty much any other superhero franchising - the casting.
@@alexwyckoff8962 well said bub
Well that’s just acting my guy, if it doesn’t sound real then it’s a bad performance
Idk this is pretty stale arguing
@@alexwyckoff8962 Marvel has some insane luck with casting, Im telling ya. Their casting department should be set for life from Disney, their work is that good. The entire first avengers cast, Tom Holland, Charlie Cox, John Bernthal, Vincent D'Onofrio, the entire Gaurdians of the Galaxy crew, both 1 and 2, etc.
Both sides have a point, that's the beauty of the scene.
But here's the rub: not everyone is capable of redemption.
not everyone is capable of redemption, but some people are. If someone kills your family etc, and you kill that person, personally I wouldnt blame you for it (even though you probably... shouldnt..) But that doesnt mean that objectively that person is incapable of becoming better, or that that person didnt have a reason to do what they did. Even if it's just that they were paid to do it, as disgusting as that might be. Or in Frank's case, if your family just got in the way of a gang fight (which he thinks is what happened). There's no way that out of the lets say 100 people Punisher kills, every single one of them is an evil rotten bastard down to their core, even if one out of 100 of them really is. You can't know that if you were under the same circumstances you wouldnt have been a criminal yourself. You cant know what lead them down that path, or what they would do if they were given a way out. It's not like he's exclusively going after the big crime bosses either, everyone is fair game to him. Of course in a life or death situation you dont have time to contemplate everyone's sob story, but the Punisher basically goes out of his way to kill people and he's proud of it too.
While that's possible that redemption can occur you have to remember that they stole someone else's life and opportunities to grow. They aren't more worthy of life than the people they killed. Even if they could change they forfeit that chance when they steal it from others. If you kill an innocent you don't deserve the second chance you didn't give them. It's not just about killing. There will always be a difference between killing an innocent person and an evil person.
92Beyo I gotta disagree with you. I think Matt's argument was kind of ridiculous. About hope and light in ppl. You're not gonna change Frank's mind with any type of spiritual shit lol. But I guess it depends on your point of view.
92Beyo I know a lot of other ppl said this too but once Matt started talking about hope and light in ppl he just sounded naive
This flows like an actual conversation. It doesn’t sound scripted in the least
I know right? It's like the director just said. Okay daredevil defend this opinion and punisher defend the other, after about 2 minutes and 50 seconds punch daredevil.
I believe the director told them that the scene had to flow in the most natural way possible. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that Cox and Bernthal improvised their lines.
Platinum Peyton that’s how he is , whenever he acts that’s how it was with him on the walking dead
Hey Wyatt
Just like Goodfellas
This is the kind of scene the Disney+ shows will NEVER even strive for.
This is why I'm kinda excited yet scared of the Daredevil joining the Disney+ Shows because I'm kinda curious how they'll handle this but also nervous if they would ruin it. I'll just hope for the best. It's Marvel after all. Things usually work out sooner or later.
100% they will fuck up both daredevil and punisher. bet my new sets of expensive electric guitar strings on it
@@ros3m4ries
Wouldn't shock me in the least.
I'll bet it won't even have a lot of night scenes, the new Daredevil show.
@@musyrifo it’s marvel after all?? Bruh I don’t think you’ve been paying attention to marvel at all. Phase 4 is a joke, literally everything in marvel is a joke. Every piece of dialogue is. Every action scene cuts away to some joke. Plus it’s not hard to see the political agendas / woke aspect.
@@117MasterSpartan people are still using woke really ok
"You never think for one second; shit, I hust killed a human being!?"
"You're being generous."
This part really got me.
To be honest, I'd be with the Punisher on this one, because do you know what question I would ask Daredevil? How long do innocent people have to grieve and fear for themselves and their loved ones while you wait for evil men to find redemption?
I'm honestly having a hard time understanding the comeback. Can someone explain?
@@pepper1234ization The people the punisher kills are so beyond what is defined socially as a "human being", they're monsters.
Hust..._..You mean just
He said that being pretty generous.
"You hit em and they get back up, I hit em an they stay down!" this quote gives me chills, such an epic line
The Geek Same, its badass! :)
Epic indeed
Best line,sums up the difference between the two. Ever read Welcome Back Frank?
so true, he's a wheeler dealer, they ethier end up rolling out in a chair or a hearse. XD
I still can't move on from this line even after watching it a year ago. A line that sticks in my head... PERMANENTLY! :D
"They better not miss" Billy Russo missed. Then he got his face pushed down against glass...
Russo created The Punisher.
Castle created Jigsaw
@@SilentDanDisney And what Jigsaw created ?
@@macedon379 nothing really
@@salvadorlucero1034 the movie Saw.
*laugh track*
@@rabbid3433 then the movie saw created jigsa- wait a goddamn minute.
“You wanna know why”
“Why”
“Because you’re insane”
This dialogue is so badass yet funny asf at the same time
"Wanna talk about santa claus?" I don't know how they do it so well, but I love the way they manage to make it a serious conversation/debate about whether or not murder can be justified, while also being subtly funny in a way that doesn't feel forced or like the writers were expecting the audience to wet themselves laughing.
Daredevil dropped both "you're insane" and "I'll take you down"... lol all they needed was an instance of swapping "kill" with "destroy" and they'd have the trifecta of classic cartoony hero-villain banters. Any yet hey, to their credit, they still pulled it off!
Says the guy running around in a devil outfit deluding himself he can change the world
Oh the cynical pessimistic grouchy guy, that thinks people can't change even though there's OVERWELMING evidence of that.
2:41 idk why matt felt like your toddler younger brother picking a fight with you when he legit is as tall as your waist in the last line🤣
Comic fact: Ghost Rider's penance stare, which affects people who have sinned, does nothing to Punisher, because he feels no regret killing criminals.
that's actually really cool
@@hkp7240 he had a protection artifact that made the stare not work the stare would have worked if not bc of said artifact wich was a feather from an angel way,still frank has guilt..his family he blames himself for their death
Same for Thanos because he believe everything he did.
Thats pretty dumb and bad writing, thats not even how his penance stare works. If it would be it wouldn't work a lot of times.
@@toniotrussardi8126 which issue is this?
"What happens the day someone decides you deserve it?"
"Tell you what, they better not miss."
The fantastic discussion aside, this line always cracked me up.
It’s exactly what he thinks too, comics punisher said once “at the bottom of my long long list, is my name too”
He is self-aware, he knows that he has done some bad shit, torture, killing innocents especially during his stint in Kandahar, and he blames himself for the death of his family. Ultimately, he believes that he deserves to be punished as well and to be put down. But until that day comes, he is gonna take all the beatings the world gonna give him, and kill all the degenerates on his way to his own demise.
I think you guys are missing the point he means “they better not miss” because he’s gonna kill them if they don’t first
@@jackrobinson3833 …….thank you captain obvious.
@@jackrobinson3833 But also because he has nothing to lose which makes him even more dangerous
DD: “What about hope?”
Punisher: “🙄 oh fuck”
Spot on reaction.
“You wanna talk about Santa Claus? You wanna talk about Santa Claus?” I chuckle at that line.
@@bloodyrose1985 I freaking love Frank so much. XD
Right lol
For a psychopath, yeah it is
Murdock: What about hope?
Castle: I was hoping you wouldn't bring UP hope!
One underrated thing in this scene that also should be worth mentioning is how Frank is not trying to convince Matt but make Matt UNDERSTAND his reasons. He even tells him that “I’m not a bad guy red”. The problem is the trauma Frank holds onto mixed with the fact he isn’t necessarily FULLY wrong about the ideals of criminals and how easy it is for them to get out and to strike again. It’s just the way he handles it.
Isn't making someone understand the same thing as convincing
@@johnLennon255 Not sure, but it could be.
@@johnLennon255 ehhh, not much. to understand is to realise the place where which the opinion falls from. to convince to change the actions based off what is said
Yeah Frank doesn’t care what Matt thinks but he wanted him to know he isn’t a madman, he’s actually doing a good thing for the city
@@johnLennon255no, kinda like with Thanos in Infinity War.
We understand why Thanos believes that he need to wipe out half the life in the universe.
But do you agree with what he's doing? Kinda like that. Understand his motives but don't agree with them.
“You know, you’re one bad day away from being me.” 💀
Which part did he say that? Is it between 1:44 and 1:50 because I cant find it at all...... what the hell lol
@@artofmartialcinemaamc5334 This is the Joker's line to Batman
@@matheuscruz8574 if I remember correctly Frank said it first in the Punisher meets Daredevil comic a while back by Frank Miller. I don't know the source so you'd have to look it up.
@@LoganSimpkins04 funny because daredevil has had that one bad day and kept going
Nah he said it in the show
"so you put'em in the morgue?"
"you're damn right I do!"
epic.......not even a hint of hesitation.....
Willverinerage what did you expect he's trained not to hesitate.
not even for a second
Has nothing to do with training...
+Max Frankow enlisted men spend a lot of time answering questions lazer quick to sgts. If you spend a few years doing something consistently you would become good at it.
That's because he's right, evil people don't deserve the slightest sympathy. They prey on the weak and people like Frank (i.e. the police,military,and sheepdog civillians) prey on them.
“So you just put em in the morgue?”
“You're god damn right I do!”
Savagery.
@Raven jesus christ you're annoying
@@Dynamo_066 Just as annoying as the people who can't learn the difference between "your" and "you're" either because of laziness or stupidity.
@@asterixobelix20 Who are you trying to impress with your mad grammar skills? I know you think you're better than everyone else because you end every sentence with a period but you just look like an uptight jackass to normal people
"They put one of yours in the hospital, you put one of their's in a morgue, that...is the Chicago way".
@@asterixobelix20 lol whats the point tho
"You can't stop crime. That's what you never understood. I'm controlling it. You wanna rule them by fear, but what do you do with the ones who aren't afraid?" - Red Hood
He beats them up. That's kind of the point.
@@TheCompleteMentalyea red hood is talking about the ppl who ain’t afraid to get beat up for thoes wat do u do
Why is it that I get the feeling that Batman just wants to play cat and mouse with criminals? Like he just throws them in prison knowing they'll go back and boom, he's got another game night again to satisfy his desires to take them out. Damn the victims of these criminals, the bat wants to play.
@@user-ko5ul7yi1x more like batman trying to fix the system by the book with his only friend Jim in a f*cked up city. Both of them trust each other to the core and know both of them won't crack. If they did that means they lost the self righteousness to protect the city. He know murder is a crime that is the end and non redeemable. Plus batman is a detective not an executioner. If he wants to play the cat and mouse, he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good.
@@carenthusiasm345 "he wouldn't have helped a lot of villians to redeem themselves and become productive to the city for the greater good."
*Joker exists*
Missed that line: "you're one bad day away from becoming me"
@shattered Rubyinserts mark Hamill laugh while beating Jason Todd with a crowbar *mwhahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHA*
That’s what the final season was about. Daredevil faced his “bad day” and in the end stayed good.
that's a straight up joker line lol
@@tauhid9983 It was a Punisher line in one of his early appearances from the 80s (in a Frank Miller Daredevil comic), then a Joker line, then a Punisher line again.
@@geoffreysorkin5774 shit I didn't know. I doubt alan moore copied it from frank miller or anything lol. But I guess that's the running theme with bad guys eh? lol
What’s cool is that this is literally the death penalty debate; and both sides bring up great points
Alex USTP I’m glad that I wasn’t the only person that seen how The Punisher versus Daredevil debate is similar to how people that support death penalty versus the people that are against the death penalty.
If it was your love one depends on your believe cause some want them forever in jail and some want them dead it should be left to the victims families if they live or die
The thing with the death penalty is that if there is even a chance that a person didn’t do something it can cause innocent lives to be lost
Antonio Rodriguez That’s why the important part isn’t if they live or die, the important part comes in the law’s judgment and ours.
deloreandmc85 That’s a pretty black and white view of the world you got there buddy.
"I really have to spell it out for you Rick?"
"Wait who's Rick?"
"Nevermind"
You're right, matt... That Is enough!
LOL i see what you did there...
Frank: I'm a better father than you!
Matt: What?
Frank: You got a broken woman, a weak boy, look around and see what you've caused
Matt: Now hang on a second
L’me ask you sumthin’ Matt *rubs the back of his head furiously*
Walking dead was never the same once him and Meryl left.
Holy crap. Writers who obviously understand the characters and who have read the source material were behind this scene. Sad that Disney has abandoned that approach with their current crop of shows.
Disney is evil
Disney: We don't do that here.
LOL that's 100% NOT true at all as Disney writers CAN be this good as This show was made and written UNDER Disney. You do realize this WAS a disney show FOR netflix, right? And disney writers in general everywhere CAN learn and do good to do better completely and entirely for their shows as they've stated they're going to learn from what they've done to do BETTER than before.
@@Gadget-Walkmen Yeah, but people in comment sections have this insatiable need to be walking cliches and one of them involves saying "Disney bad" so they'll never admit that fact just because it contradicts their agenda and complaints even though they're still gonna watch whatever disney comes out with.
@@disturbedrenegade9815 basically yeah, Disney haters are the worst when they act like this and not realize this show came out UNDER Disney. I have no doubt disney plus is gonna make a great show for Daredevil completely!
"Youre one bad day away from being me" -Punisher
We all can relate to this somehow
Joker said it first
Sounds like punisher is a joker fanboy
@@barry2349 exactly
Timestamp?
@@afmorales7155 of what?
so this is what a blind man arguing with a veteran looks like
Afflicted15 there's so much significance to your comment and it's sad that it was overlooked by the rest in here
Now that you bring it up, holy shit
What's the significance of this comment?
Muhammad Usman You're too blind to see it
Afflicted15 Both metaphorically and literally. Matt is blind literally, but also does not see that some people are beyond redemption, while Frank is a veteran literally, but also has experience in seeing that pure evil exists, and that evil will never change
The street-level and more brutal version of the dialogue between the Vision and Ultron.
@Avenging Demon no. Its very subjective. There is no right answer. Every case with different scenarios need to be looked at carefully, and then make a fair decision to both parties. But us humans are too impatient for that, so we decide the easier one, hence the law system.
@Avenging Demon They're both right and they're both wrong; however, the fact that you think Frank is completely right is kinda unsettling.
@@lex_rodriguez why? Every person he kills is irredeemable, and they are sick murderers, rapists freaks. Some people deserve to die for their sins, often because they're too numerous to count. You probably live life hoping the best of people, and that's nice, I wish I could. But I can't, I've seen the shittyness of people and how they won't change. I don't think all criminals should die and I don't think all murderers should die, so do end up repenting and feeling regret and sadness at what they did. But then there are the ones who take pride in it, they deserve nothing
Metalhead2968 4 Life
That’s the thing. You agree with killing but also oppose the thought of killing. That’s why this debate is subjective. There is no correct answer. You can’t have the idea of: Kill this guy because, don’t kill this guy because. They have both killed, thus both deserve punishment.
Also, nearly 7/10 of humans on this doomed planet is shitty. Only on a rare occasion will you meet a genuinely kind person.
Stay safe during this pandemic my good sir.
@@sleepingzoro7530 no, someone that killed to protect innocent people, doesn't deserve punishment, period.
1:35 I love how punisher tells a blind guy to look around 🤣🤣🤣
I don't think he knows he's blind here at all.
Listen around red 😄
Smell around red
Feel around red
I might as well try it in real life..with real blind people😂
Now that Charlie Cox is confirmed to return as Daredevil, Jon Bernthal needs to return as Punisher. This argument needs to happen on the big screen!
All Netflix customes
Maybe him and Spider-Man could meet each other and they have similar argument. I mean DD and Spider-Man have the similar ideologies that go against Punisher’s
Even though i fcking dig Jon Berntal as a Punisher, deep in my heart I don't wish to see him ruined by Disney. They have no guts to make Punisher with the same rating as Netflix did. All we gonna get , is movie for kids and Chinese with 12+rate.
Mark my words when they gonna ruin Daredevil. Scene from Spiderman already confirmed my concerns, it's all about fun now and nothing serious.
Hawkeye , in the meantime ruined Wilson Fisk already . Scene looks like some avengers movie (explosion near character, throwback for 15 meters and hit by a car and not a single drop of blood, like nothing even happened to him) that's a Circus.
P.S: even Jon Bernthal said he won't return as a Punisher unless Disney willing to make changes in ratings. He don't wana ruin his character.
@@anonymousfx5254 is really sad, Disney as always ruining everything, we need to do something
@boobie maniac Only if Disney would give back filming rights to Netflix, otherwise it's gonna be horsesh.t, and Berntal knows it as a fun of Punisher character so he will not take part of ruining it.
"what about hope?" "Oh fuck" LMFAOOOOOOOOOO i swear that always killed me
I love it when Frank says “You wanna talk about Santa Claus? You wanna talk about Santa Claus?”
Classic meat head Punisher when someone tries to convince him that killing people on the street is bad
@@DoctorDewgong average goody two shoes daredevil thinking things in life are like in tv shows that everyone can be fixed,hope? lol ask about hope to the victims of criminals the only hope u gonna get is for the criminals to pay one way or another
@@DoctorDewgong daredevil has as much blood on his hands as criminals he leaves alive
@@brothersofwrath4785 Daredevil does not exist
2:09 The way Charlie Cox's voice cracks a bit when he says "No, Frank, to try again, Frank." gets me every time.
That's my favorite part too. He gets hoarse . I think because he's not talking about other men. He's talking about himself too. He wants redemption for himself as well.
His father as well. Ray Nadeem from season 3. Redemption is possible
@@catherinesanchez1185 why does he want redemption for himself when he never did anything bad?
@@aryan7767 not for everyone.
@@magallanesagustin4952 Catholic guilt mate. Plus he is conflicted about even beating the shit out of guys.
“You hit them, they get back up. I hit them and they stay down!”
Pretty cool quote
"You ever doubt yourself Frank?
"Not even for a second"
This is what I love about The Punisher. He feels no remorse for what he did. His sense of justice overwhelms his conscience. Nothing can stop him once he decides someone should die.
EDIT: I’m not saying I 100% agree with Punisher’s beliefs. What I admire most about him is that he never doubts himself. Most heroes would feel conflicted about their choices, but not him. He never goes back on his word except for a really compelling reason (like the time he nearly killed John Pilgrim but ultimately decided against it).
That's why Ghost Rider's stare doesn't work on him.
@@GingerZombie29 which was bullshit because that's not how the penance stare works
Yeah, but that’s overestimating himself. Which is not always good. It can get the better of him.
I think that the Penance Stare makes u feel whatever your “victims” felt when you hurted/killed them
I think that it doesnt work on Frank because he doesnt feel remorse, And if he was a “Bad” guy he would feel like everything bad that happens to him is deserved
He doesnt feel guilty for his actions, He actually believes that everyone he killed deserved it, And if he “feels” their pain, He doesnt care, For him they are scum on the earth that doesnt deserve to live
The Penance Stare's power and judgement depends on how much the Rider wants to punish the sinner and its more than possible Ghost Rider allowed Frank to live as the only difference between them was Frank wasn't supernaturally powered. He was merely shocked that all the people Frank killed were evil and that he doesn't regret killing anyone as most people would even if they were evil.
"There's really something broken in you."
I mean, the man had his wife and kids murdered in front of him.
So did Daredevil whose father was murdered and he lost his eyesight. That didn't make him bitter. He saw the difference between vengeance and justice and chose to do the right thing. If he wanted, he could be far more deadlier than Punisher. Would have brought the entire mob and mafia of New York to their knees single handedly but he chose not to.
@@MrMadhusudhan45 totally different. Matt's dad died when he was blind and he was a kid. Still innocent. Frank was already a grown man in the military and had his family brutally murdered in front of him.
Let's check out more comics information:
• Elektra died in front of him and thar didn't made him bitter (ok, just a little, but he didn't turned into a Punisher)
• Karen died in front of him
• Foggy "died" in front of him
• Blindspot (he is like a son to DD) was blinded by a serial killer in "front" of him (he hearded everything)
• Milla Donovan got crazy little by little in front of him
• Heather Glenn committed suicide after a phone call with him
• His personal life was literally destroyed on Born Again
• He broke up with Kirsten McDuffie on a terrible way
• He was possessed by a demon and had to "kill" himself for stopping him
All of this and much more are daredevil's life tragedies, and he never turned up to what Frank is. Daredevil is a character *made* for being destroyed and *always* get up. That's the main difference about Daredevil and Punisher: Red gets up, Frank stays down.
The tragic part about that line is that it's also referring to Frank's fractured skull.
@@lucasmiguel4734 great comment
The most human exchange between the hero & the anti-hero that you will ever watch, see, witness or encounter. Take your pick. This was so spot on. You have to appreciate it no matter what. It doesn’t get more real than this.
Morally good and morally neutral at its very best
@@kainkong274, yep! Totally agree! So satisfying all at once!
@@NYG1991 indeed so
Frank's more of a hero then daredevil ever could be.
@@kainkong274, oh yes!
Best scene of season two. Daredevil vs. Punisher mental battle. Insane writing.
why couldnt Batman v Superman have been like this as well i am a marvel and DC fan but i felt let down by DOJ tbh the ultimate edition was a bit better but i ultimately believe Zack Snyder fucked it up because it is him who has final say on the script and i still fear for JL this year with him directing it
It really is a scene that Aaron Sorkin or David Mamot WISH they wrote. So well written with such terrific performances.
I wished Season 2 was more like this. While I loved Elektra, her and The Hand took the spot light away from Punisher. I cared way more for Frank's revenge and his arguments with Matt than The Hand's master plan (which was underwhelming in Defenders)
Every dialogue scene between Matt and Frank ar beyond amazing.
Fantastic scene, only thing better to me was Punishers graveyard scene.
If you call the punisher a "Nut job" straight to his face and he leaves you alive, you're the luckiest.
It means he hasn't deemed you as guilty. I love Punisher in the comic of Civil War. Captain America beats him up and Punisher doesn't fight back.
@@TopcatsLair because Cap was his hero.
@@Morningstar91939 Man, when I heard about that I wanted to cry.
Man without fear!
@@TopcatsLair because he still knows matt’s a good guy
"Look around, Red." Haha good one.
Lmao
Lol it took me awhile
Frank: look around Red...
Matt: *shrugs*
@@jimmy2k4o xD
DAMN!!!
My favorite part is how it actually sounds like 2 people talking like you can actually imagine people having this argument. The writing and the actors portraying it. Perfection
Some agree with Daredevil
Some agree with The Punisher
While everyone agrees that their argument really makes you think about issues in real life
There's a third argument in there.
Bruh your everywhere dawg🤣
Here's the problem with Daredevil's argument: yes, some people deserve a second chance, but what message does that send to future criminals who wanna commit heinous crimes? It shows that people can get a 2nd chance and maybe do the same heinous act against an innocent person. Frank's argument makes more sense because of the message it sends: You a rapist, pedophile, etc? You're gonna go in the morgue. No questions. It prevents, or atleast makes people think twice about doing those sort of crimes ever
@@caffreydavis218 Depending on the crime. Death seems better for murderers, rapists and pedos, etc but petty theft or something don't deserve death
Theyre both wrong. You dont give a man a second chance to kill you and your children and you dont kill him either. You kneecap him or cut of his hands or eliminate his ability to be a threat. You make it so he cant do it again. Killing is unnecessary most of the time. You get the same results by making so they simply cant do it again but are still alive to think about it. Bullet in the knew. Dislocate his joints so hell be lucky to ever regain feeling. Shatter his legs. Cut off his primary hand. Take out his eyes, etc. Ironic punishment or poetic justice. You decide
The brilliance of this argument is that they're both correct. They just have different times for their views to be appropriate.
Punisher is wrong. In the real world people have been reabilitated and changed their ways
While there are those that have changed, what about those that can't change their ways?
Daredevil sees good in all people, which is absolutely fucking retarded. While there are those that have a POSSIBLY of changing, his logic risks innocent people's live all because of Daredevil's stupid ideology to get murdered, raped etc.
While Punisher's way makes sure that no innocent person get hurt by putting down criminals that deserve to die in his point of view.
Acute Cloudd yeah SOME people really can change... but how about some that unable to? how many victim has to suffer from them before they finally change?
+Thossaphorn Asawachinachot
One thing that can then complicate things even further is that if one builds a culture, where the common mindset is “once a bad guy, always a bad guy”, then this could become a self-fulfilling prophecy that increases the amount of irredeemable monsters in society, the very thing which is often provided as proof that Punisher’s methods are needed in the first place.
(a bunch of extra thoughts below):
If a person has done something horrible in the past, but still feels a grain of genuine guilt and conflict, then being surrounded by people who basically voice the message of “men like you can never change” is not going to help him. If anything, that might convince him even further that he cannot change, making it even more likely that he will not even try to get off of his current path. In those hypothetical cases, then that could still increase the amount of people he/she hurts before being caught/killed. Similarly, Punisher definitely has an important point when he says that the justice system is screwed up, sick with corruption, and/or inept. But at the same time, if everyone believes as he does that becoming a vigilante who executes criminals is the only choice left, then that only increases the chances of us having a future where nobody even tries to fix our justice system. In short, the justice system might become broken beyond repair, but possibly only because everyone treats it as such. It is kind of like Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein”, with the one difference being that it involves a man/system who actually is somewhat of a monster having its destiny of becoming an even worse monster (or at least not turning good) further sealed, whereas Frankenstein’s creature actually was innocent and child-like, only to have its fate of growing into a monster be sealed by society treating him as one.
I can sympathize with both of their points of view. I think what sums up the differences between Punisher and Daredevil’s mindsets is that Daredevil is willing to take a risk, for better or worse, in hopes that the door for a better society/humanity can be opened. Punisher is convinced that it is not possible for society/humanity to get much better, so he does what he feels will at least guarantee that it cannot get worse than it already is.
Acute Cloudd No, Punisher can be right. In the real world if the cops tell you surrender you do so or get shot. Matt has a point that they should *try* to bring criminals to justice, but it’s foolish to say no killing them no matter what.
Sometimes it’s them or some innocent family.
I think this season could’ve been perfection if they took out everything surrounding The Hand and just focused on DD and Punisher along with their moral clash
I liked the Hand, but just should've been in smaller doses
@@thee_morpheus Agreed the Defenders should have taken the Hand storyline completely.
Actually, the entirety of the hand stuff with elektra is pretty much the same thing, specially the flashbacks.
i went back to watch daredevil just for the punisher scenes, literally skipped over everything with the hand i didnt care lol punisher just meshes perfectly in this season
@@holdmyseatbelt1184 i watched daredevil just for the punisher as well
"Crime can not be tolerated. Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society's understanding." -Ra's al Ghul
Just imagine if they had this scene with Bruce and Ducard
Exactly!
Not exactly kid. You just prude bullying.
2:15 admittedly though, Daredevil just gave punisher's argument the best defense "there's something broken in you you can't fix" that is punishers whole argument, that there are some people who are simply too crazy and too evil to live (both sides made good points in my opinion)
Fucking genius! Am stunned! Your insight is deep bro.
0:35 Conversely, Frank gave Matt’s argument the best defense. “You shot up a hospital”, “Yeah nobody got hurt who didn’t deserve it.” How can you trust Frank to always know who does and doesn’t “deserve it”, is he psychic? Because if he’s ever wrong, that’s death, not the hospital or jail.
@@mackattack315 Frank isn’t just spraying and praying. He’s arguably one of the most well trained and deadly accurate soldiers in the world. It isn’t so much about knowing who deserves it or not, as it is he quite literally knows exactly who he’s gunning for before he even takes action. If he doesn’t wanna hit someone, he’s not gonna hit them.
Idk about that one Seth. Daredevil didn't exactly didn't write Frank off as a nut job who would never see reason, he just identified who he was at that moment. Given what Red said I'm willing to bet he wanted a chance to rehabilitate Frank or get him to see things from his perspective. Remember how he said there's a little good in everyone, even in Frank. Basically I believe that Daredevil's philosophy is that no one's ever too broken to be thrown away.
Thought the same thing, I agree with the rest of DDs argument though
"You hit 'em and they get back up, I hit 'em, THEY STAY DOWN!!"
That's my favorite line.
“Try again” is my favorite.
amazing dialogue
Yeah. I'm on Punisher on this that's the problem about fighting for Truth and Justice in the superhero world. The battle never ends. It's an unending game of cat and mouse with the hero bringing the villain to prison only for them to get out do the same thing again.
Joker probably said it well in Injustice: God's Among Us. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah but you need both kinds of people. The truth is, some people can be redeemed. And that's worth it. But the number of people who are willing to do the redeeming is very small.
Most people don't care about others problems. They don't believe in forgiveness. You screw up once? Your done. You had one chance and you blew it. You're beyond redemption. Most people feel that way.
It takes an incredible amount of character and willpower to be the one who gives others a second chance. The problem with this philosophical debate from a superhero perspective though is that the superheros never actually do anything to help those they fight to actually become better. So the idea of killing the villain makes more sense.
That's why I loved animated justice league. The scene with flash and the "villain" who was off his meds while drinking in the bar was perfect.
Facts too.
the acting between Charlie and Jon were perfect.
Bro really told daredevil to look around 😭
He’s knows that he can still see, he ain’t entirely blind. He even tests this.
This argument has to be ONE OF the overall best dialogues in recent TV history. Excellently written, realistically delivered by DD and Punisher, containing the perfect "push and pull", tension and release.....
Pure freaking gold.
I like how you call them DD and Punisher rather than Charlie and Jon
This is how Batman V Superman should've been.
@@goodjoejoe this is how Batman and Red Hood was
What's great about this argument is that neither of them are wrong.
I would definitely side with Punisher on this one. The problem for fighting for Truth and Justice in the world of superhero is that the battle never ends. The hero brings the villain to jail only for the villain to go out and cause chaos once again.
I think Joker from Injustice 1 said it well. "You think you can have a family. That locking me up will magically reform me. And they'll be safe. So big, so dumb."
@@arkhamknight9001 yeah, but the problem is that Punisher's methods can also end up killing innocents or create more criminals who may end up taking the place of the guys he killed. (Like a never ending cycle)
@@anjaneyasreetrout2444 sorry for the late reply just got back home from work.
That is true IF there is anyone from that world that can replace the bad guys. Honestly the no-kill rule is for superheroes who are either naive or just won't see they're error. In a crossover between Marvel and DC when Punisher was about to kill the Joker, Batman arrived and just allows him to run away.
In my opinion the Cons far outweighs the Pros. While people will call anti-heroes psychopaths, murderers, or among other thing. They do what no other heroes could never do. End the War between villains and heroes. Of course that is if anyone who has the guts to step up on the big table and took his/her place. Then good luck.
@@arkhamknight9001 I get your perspective, but if we’re talking about the Punisher specifically, he literally at the end of this very episode, destroys the biker gang’s bikes at the bar across the street, inciting them into charging the apartment complex full of innocents, all just to escape Daredevil who was kicking his ass. And who has to save the day? Daredevil
A sly Cooper fan 👍👍👍
Their ideologies were explained perfectly in this scene:
Daredevil believes that every human being, no matter how deplorable, still have some good in them, and thus should not be killed.
The Punisher believes that the people he puts down have no good left in them, and thus are not worth letting live.
This is why Daredevil is one of the best shows i've ever watched.
@Some Damn OUTLAW I completely missed that scene.
It's been years since I've watched it though. I watched DD as it was released.
@Some Damn OUTLAW how he didnt kill him stick did Tf you mean "excuses"
@@mr.doctorcaptain1124 he never killed anybody he fell of the building survived then stick cut his head off finally killing him not matt
@@prodigen3683 that's right, I remember that scene now. Good call
Matt is a Catholic to his core, he'd turn into another Frank otherwise and almost did in Season 3.
The way when they talk over each other while arguing yet you can still hear them because the actors delivered their lines and gave each other room to be heard. Just wow
1:42 - 1:48 best sequence in my opinion. Not only their arguments, but you can see how the actors did it brilliantly, interrupting, yelling at each other, agreeing that they disagree. Pure gold.
Milorad Cukavac 100% agreed
Then someone would come and replace the joker. The cycle never stops
I think it extends to at least 1:53
I love how real this scene feels.
And it involves a dude dressed in a devil costume.
People can be dressed like that making real arguments. What I'm surprised is how a blind man can be a tough vigilante.
To me, this makes Matt’s character arc in season 3 so much more powerful. Right at the moment he beats Kingpin and is wanting to snap his neck, Matt stops himself from doing it. Probably not because he thinks there’s good in Fisk but because he knows there is good in himself that would be destroyed if he followed through with it.
Amazing writing and an amazing show.
Also later in this season Daredevil tells Frank that he’s willing to kill, but only this one time, and Frank explains to him that’s not how it works, once you do it once you’re a killer forever. That also probably helped Daredevil stop himself from killing Fisk.
@@ErikDayne exactly Matt can kill just once but that isn't how it works. Kingpin even stated that "the more one kills, the more easier it becomes" Frank is the living example. An individual who did so much killing, he's beyond saving
Very well put
Batman explained to Jason why he refused to kill joker because he wouldn’t be able to stop after he did so.
So basically Daredevil put innocent lives aside so that he could feel good about himself for “not falling to their level” even though killing a crime lord would do nothing but help people in the long run.
How selfish of him.
I miss this series. Such intelligent writing and brilliant acting.
Frank thinks Matt is naive for his beliefs, and Matt thinks Frank is crazy for his. Perspective is a powerful thing!!
I believe that people who belive in redemption for evil people are admirable, because they have an optimism that should be envied, but their optimism is also to a fault because they underestimate how evil people can be.
People can change, for the better even and I believe that, but how many innocent people have to live on in fear and grief knowing that evil people can torment and take away their livelihood of themselves and their loved and be left unchecked.
Fool Slayer 💯 agree with you
Subjectivity
Objectivity
From what I’ve seen from other fictional stories, change and redemption is possible for anyone, but it comes down to it being a choice; the villain in question may be asking “why would I want to change, I’m fine with who I am,” redemption is possible; but it can’t be forced
1:35
Punisher: Look around you
Daredevil: Here's the thing Sherlock, I *can't*
Before he knew he was blind
Ever since I was a kid, I always believed in the good in humanity, that people can change for the better. It's when you're young when you tend to underestimate how evil people can be. But then one day, I talked with a police officer who often visited my mom's cafe, and when I told him that I was bullied he told me that there were 3 kinds of people that do evil:
1. People who do evil things because they don't know it's evil.
2. People who do evil things and know it's wrong, but they don't care.
3. People who do evil things and know it's wrong, and worse, they enjoy doing it.
The first kind deserves a second chance the other two deserve a bullet in their heads.
Yep the world can be horrible,but there are people who can change that perspective
sorry but it is a d&d stuff,u talked about Caotic Good,Caotic Neutral and Caotic Evil
A cop with a realistic look on life? That's rare.
You've just described Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Evil my friend
I love that chuckle the Punisher does before knocking Matt out.
it's like: "haha. Insane yeah? Would an insane person do this?!"
“I’ll show you insane.”
LMAO, that's hilarious
I mean… kinda?
I like how Frank even in the middle of an argument actually says things like "Whats that?" and "What?" in a genuine manner, like whilst they totally disagree Franks still listening to him.
That's the one thing preventing it from being a realistic argument, if it was realistic they'd just be ignoring the other while they try to talk, and yell over each other the whole time. Ruined my immersion.
@@JustapErson Everything that which you’ve said and saying right now only proves and shows that YOUR WRONG in everything you’ve been saying here as EVERYTHING about the conversation and the scene was a COMPLETE “realistic argument” entirely as it was realistic as realistic can get entirely.
It WAS completely realistic throughout as you don’t need to have them “jUst bE iGnOriNg tHe oThEr wHilE thEy trY tO tALk, ANd yELl oVeR eaCh oVer tHe wHoLe aRguMeNt” lol not even close no. Both Daredevil and The Punisher are INTELLIGENT men who are trying to convince each other that they’re side is the right side so they CAN’T simply “ignore each other and talk”, they need to LISTEN to each other and try to counter their arguments that which they’ve LAYED out for each other. That’s what makes the whole discussion argument between them so compelling AND realistic, because they’re both trying to RATIONALLY counter each other’s arguments with their own line of reason and makes the audience WANTS to listen to what they have to say.
This is PEAK realism discussion argument between two smart people, not just two Buffon on the street having a drunk argument.
It’s one of the MOST immersion gripping and engaging scene of all time and absolutely NOTHING about it “rUiNeD” ANYONE’S “immersion” in the slightest when they’re not looking for nonsensical reasons to complain about something over nothing.
Lol at you BADLY saying “rUiNeD mY iMmeRsIoN”, yes because you made up a nonsensical scenario for you to ALLOW it on yourself for you to even DARE it “rUiN” ANY kind of your weak “ImMerSIoN”.
It didn’t “rUiN” ANYONE else’s “immersion” at all in the slightest because EVERYONE but YOU here is sensible which you have clearly proven you are entirely not here at all based on the what you’re saying as this rooftop scene is pitch PERFECT throughout as the most immersive scene ever made in a superhero show/movie. You’re just whining for literally NO reason on trying to find something to complain about here, nothing more or else here. Just stop as you’re COMPLETELY wrong here.
@@JustapErson Brain dead take
@Jeremy Reynolds LOL You gotta do what you gotta do.
@@JustapErson dogshit take
There’s something so engaging about the acting and writing. I love how it’s so realistic and they’re talking over each other. Both these dudes are giving it their all. This show is so compelling, I can’t stop watching it.
No replies ?
@@princemichael81 yeah, these two.
Thats the acting. Notice that theyre breathing and talking at thr same time. I think that is the reason why it sounds so realistic. But the lines they say have to be realistic too.
Also great editing
Gotta love how organic this feels. This doesn't feel like a "come back to the light" plea from a comic book, this is an argument between men.
There’s nothing wrong with something feeling like a comic book at all, these ARE comic book characters after all and some of the best arcs of this show ARE best on comic book storylines here as you can make comic characters sound EXACTLY like real people all the time. No idea on where your coming from when you say but you’re completely wrong to do and say so!
@@Gadget-Walkmen He's not wrong at all. The comic books are obviously a much inferior way of telling stories, the dialogue is not written nearly as well. Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner.
Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation, hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted.
@@JustapErson He IS wrong entirely AND you are as well as NOTHING you've said here makes ANY sense at all as there are COUNTLESS comic books that have VASTLY superior style of storytelling when your properly tell a story WITHIN that medium such as Watchmen, The Killing Joke, Batman: Hush, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen are all WAY better than their live actions and animated film counterparts because of how well the story is told here.
You BADLY saying that "tHe cOmIC bOoKs Are ObIVoUsLY a MuCH inFerIoR wAy oF teLlIng StORiEs" is 100% WRONG as NOTHING about comic books are "inFeRioR" in ANY way if you actually bothered to see how fantastic ways stories have been told through mediums.
"the dialogue is not written nearly as well."
LOL Just no. spoken like someone whose NEVER read a comic as there is countless comic books with phenomenal dialogue that's better than even movies like Watchmen, V for Vendetta, Ultimate Spider-man, The Killing Joke, Daredevil: Born Again.
You have NO idea on what you're talking about at all when you say this nonsense of "tHe dIaLOgue iS nOt WrItTeN nEaRlY aS wElL.", lol just no. The dialogue is written PHENOMENALLY and spectacularly well and done.
The Dialogue is written JUST as well if you actually bothered to see how well written they all are.
The only thing you've established here is that you've NEVER read a comic book in your life or you completely failed to understand how excellently well done they are for you to be spewing out this nonsense right here entirely in ANY way, that' for certain.
"Compare the scene to the comic and there's probably a clear winner."
This scene isn't pulled from ANY specific comic at all and just because it's live action, doesn't mean it's good at all. There are plenty of comic book that are WAY better than it's live action and animated counterparts like The Killing Joke, Watchmen, Batman: Hush, as I've mentioned beforehand and the source material of the comic are WAY better overall in comparison.
The "probably clear winner" is whatever is done RIGHT within it's own medium correctly as there is such thing as a BAD adaption, which you fail to notice here whenever you say anything here at all.
"Clearly here inspiration is better than adaptation,"
There is no "cLeArLy hErE" AT ALL as all it matters is WHAT the context is for one to be better than the other in the SPECIFIC situation you're talking about here.
Inspiration and adaption can ONLY be as good as whatever they're doing within their own medium, that's it.
"hence why (I think) everything that marvel does is inspired by instead of adapted."
Obviously whatever Marvel does is inspired by comics than directly adapting any specific storyline EXACTLY as it was but like I said, Marvel does a excellent job at doing what they do through inspiration from what's been done in THEIR specific context, just like other Cinematic Universes should do so as well.
In other cases, adapted stories can be done FANTASTICALLY well from adaption of any comic storyline and it can be just as amazing as any inspired by storyline, like I said, it all depends on what's been done on a case by case scenario which you don't get AT ALL here in the slightest.
@@Gadget-Walkmen nerd
@@domagojgalekovic8507 Not even close, but you most certainly with what you're TERRIBLY saying right now here. That's for sure!
I REALLY like how the Punisher can't look Daredevil in the eye in all of this. Knowing he is blind, he freely makes it show that he doesn't feel justified with his body language. He moves around, does other things, and even when sitting in front of him, he looks side to side instead of looking straight at him. I LOVE that.
honestly I think that's how Jon Bernthal acts
@@andrewwong2399 oh really?? Haha did I give too much credit?
@@the8u9 he kinda does the same thing in walking dead and wolf of wall street where he looks off to the side when he's annoyed at someone. He probably does the same thing in real life lol
@@andrewwong2399 ohhhhhhhh haha you're totally right
Except that he doesn't know he is blind
"You left men hanging from meat hooks!" "They got of easy in my opinion!" All know thats childs play to punisher 😨😂
lol thats the funniest line he said
"You shot up a hospital!"
"What about you, Frank? What happens the day someone decides you deserve it?"
You run around the city like it's your damn shooting gallery.
Yeah. So you just put 'em in the morgue!
Let’s just remember in this same universe baby groot is dancing to mr blue sky
And I love it even more for that reason.
ANYTHING can happen in the Marvel universe.
Lol
The MCU baby
@@darrenwalsh5030 Exactly.That's the way it's always been in the comics,too. You can have The Punisher and Groot,Howard The Duck and Squirrel Girl and so on and so forth all exist in the same universe.
I love that about comics,that you can have all of these different kinds of characters all co-exist in the same universe.
@@JR-ju3kj just like real life! All the genres and different kinds of people rolled into one.
Daredevil is currently the most honest depiction/representation of Catholicism, and this debate was staggeringly good.
Dresses as a devil*
I love how much of an emphasis the show gave to daredevils ideals of not taking a human life. The expression, the desparation in his voice to make punisher understand was immense in this scene
For me i think they're both right. The problem is that they're both too absolute. Frank thinks all criminals deserve death. But some can have redemption. While matt says that they can be redeemed some people don't really deserve to breath. They're points both have flaws,which is why they are both right yet wrong at the same time
Well not all criminals just the truly horrible ones. He doesn’t kill thieves or smugglers unless of course they do drugs dude.
@Aaron Neville Jessica Jones has no morality but whatever she personally feels. She treats some criminals like scimbags and others like victims, based purely on how much she identifies with them.
Aaron Neville bruh why you so toxic
In my opinion if comic books were real then daredevils way is more easier but this is reality and in reality u gotta make the hard choice that punisher makes
@Aaron Neville you are waaay too sensitive ugly man calm thy virginity
"You wanna talk about santa clause?"
Lmfaoooo that is the BEST way someone has ever said hope is not real. Thats my favorite punisher quote ever haha.
His "Oh, fuck." Right before is funny
@@phillipwalling7470 yeah I thought I heard that too, was that allowed on this show?
@@xelasti6225 It was a Netflix original, swearing was probably free game
@@xelasti6225 One of the episodes in Season 2 started off by panning out of a hole through someones chest; swearing is nothing.
@@xelasti6225 A dude committed suicide in season 1 after giving away Kingpins name, he impaled his own head on a metal spike.
I like the fact that frank respects DD letting the mask stay on
It's not just that,as someone else on the comments section here said,Frank doesn't care who DD is under the mask.Some people would have taken DD's mask off out of sheer curiousness just to see who he really is but it didn't make any difference to The Punisher.
What I love most about this scene is that it reflects the conversation Matt and Foggy had in the first season but while those two were discussing the dangers of vigilantism Frank and Matt are here discussing the principles and morality behind it
Daredevil "do you wanna know the definition of insanity?"
*gets punched*
Insanity: repeating an act the exact same way and expecting a different outcome each time.
Daredevil: punches the same criminals over and over and expects them to change.
@@patrioticjustice9040 fits
@@patrioticjustice9040 Pretty much.
Punisher: keeps shooting criminals expecting crime to just stop one day
“Shit I just killed a human being”
“That’s being generous”.
Awesome scene.
The fact that DD breaks his "No Kill" rule at the end when Nobu kills Elektra, proves Frank was right.
@Literal_Potato He still fucking died, regenerating doesn't change the fact that he killed. He knew he would die, his enemy healing doesn't change his actions.
@Cinereous the outlaw king has a point there comes a time where it comes down to the crunch sometimes its the best thing you can do for a human being
"One bad day from being like me"
@@theoutlawking9123 There's a lot of distance between kicking someone off a roof in a fight to save someone and going on a crusade where you leave no enemies alive like Frank.
This is something Batman vs superman was missing dreadfully! The clashing of ideologies
Michael Nally They had a clash... it didn't make any sense and was a clusterfuck, but it was there.
Wonderin'_Stud Only for simple minds
Pure Fun and Stopmotions Even my younger brother wasn't that impressed. I made him watch 'New Batman/Superman Adventures' right after and he got hooked on that instead.
Superman and Wonder Woman had this conversation in the comics. Wonder Woman thinks a lot like Punisher.
G. Miller She's a trainer warrior as a kid. So it's expected.
I wouldn't even be surprised if Clark still goes to church on sundays.
It's hard to believe this is the same Daredevil in She-Hulk, it really is.
daredevil is a very nuanced character who can be both kind and funny as well as dark and gritty:)
He was overall consistent in She-hulk as he was dealing with a light hearted situation.
"People change. Or they die before they do." - Orochimaru
"People don't change. They only become more of who they truly are." - Eagle Flies
This is something I've been thinking about a lot.
TheBannonCannon did you just quote Red Dead 2 ?
Both versions are true
both are bullshit.
First, is just a cheap line try to sound deep. what ? next thing you would tell me water is wet ? it is imply "People always change" but there are people who never learn for shit. That is where the statement is a bullshit, It just prevent the denies by saying "they just doesn't have the chance to change"
Second is utter stupid. Thing change people. Even science prove this, even our brain cell will not say the same. It will change 100% to new and the old cell will gone completely after years.
Corny ass
Only God can change people.
Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
*In an alternate universe*
Batman: What about you Jason, what happens the day someone decides you deserve it?
Red Hood: I'll tell you what, they better not miss.
Batman : If you kill a killer, then the number of killers in this world stays the same
Red Hood : that's why i always kill more than one
@@ariqsyafwan4987 Batman : But would that makes you better? What's the difference between you and them?
Red Hood : Maybe sometimes, people need to get their hands dirty to cleanse this wretched world
That's probably the best batman movie I've seen... Under the red hood... The ending... The greatest
@@Bouya_Harumichi Red Hood: simple, These murderers kill innocent people either to get a point across, fear, etc. Me I protect the innocent by killing those murderers to deter other would be murderers
@@ariqsyafwan4987 I'm 90% sure Batman never said that.
DD: "What happens the day someone decided you deserve it?"
FC: "I'll tell you what, they better not miss."
Fuckin' gangster!
"Because you're insane!"
"I take your point. Counterpoint-" WRENCH.
I love how anti-heroes always make so much more sense when arguing the killing thing with heroes. Both Peace Keeper and Punisher acknowledge that the criminals get out and just kill again.
They are the true heroes, that's why.
In a perfect world, parangon would be right, in the real world, vigilantes makes sense (even some villains make more sense than some heroes)
@@guifire9747 That's right.
Despite Peacemaker calling Batman a jackass.
Ok psychopath
I agree with Frank on the fact that not everybody has the “flicker of light” in them and are totally evil. But I would prefer Matts approach in dealing with them
They both have good points it’s just Punisher takes it a bit far. Punisher does it to just about whoever he deems as such. Some people that may have actually had a chance at redemption. While Daredevil may give them a chance and those that take it good, but he leaves an impression. That to those who don’t change you will he right back here looking at me.
When the Punisher disemboweled and hung a man from a tree, and beat a woman for half an hour before throwing her out the 50th story window, because they were both involved in trafficking young girls as slaves, he did the right thing. Unforgivable crimes bring out the Punisher.
If he guns down a down on his luck liqour store robber, that's when I agree with Daredevil.
Think about the colossal amount of lives that could have been saved if Batman dealt with the Joker like the Punisher would. There is a certain point where this is no redemption for someone. To pretend that is never the case is also just as insane as killing all criminals.
Joker literally destroys Matt's and Bruce's ideology completely.
The worst crimes joker done is after he was given a 2nd chance.
@@Slayer8957 It shouldn't fall onto Bruce to be the one to execute Joker. That should be up to the courts.
Amazing scene, amazing writing. Amazing acting. Perfect philosophical talk. You know why this season was so successful? You genuinely understand where each guy is coming from. Frank isn’t the villain… he’s the antagonist. Big difference.
God damn right, only thing i didnt like is when he shot grotto at the hospital,there's so many innocent people at that place that couldve been caught, good thing no one did
I wouldn't even say he's that.
He's very violent-minded, I'll give you that. But he's still a hero. The people he kills are ultra scumbags, after all. Even kills corrupt cops.
@@dr.josemanalo2141 He was a marine force recon lieutenant and an excellent marksman, he knew what he was doing. They mentioned it in this scene actually about how "nobody got hurt who didn't deserve it" those other people were never in danger there except Grotto because Frank is accurate and very well trained
One of my favorite scenes in television history. I can't wait for more Daredevil in the MCU.
God the emotion of these two. Both respect and hate each other. till the end part of calling him crazy, they were fighting like old friends who after years apart met don't recognize each other.
Lunardivider24 you reminded me of magneto and professor x
I think if they want to have a rated R side in the MCU then Punisher's upcoming show is the perfect starting point. He dropped an F-bomb in this scene like it was no big deal so they could continue that in his show.
when did punisher say the f word?
vice2vursa 1:58
Damn I noticed that too and I was surprised they let it happen when I rewatched it
Why do americans consider ''FUCK'' a big deal, lol is just a bad word, whats the big deal with it
It's a TV MA right
the most beautifully written argument scene in television history
Nah arrow vs diggle takes that (if you watch arrow) but this is still good
*that you’ve seen
@@OlderG0ds bruh that shit was two years ago
Everyone pointing out how the dialogue sounds like an actual conversation proves that A. Both actors are incredible and B. That whoever wrote the dialogue is a fucking artist at their work
The dialogue is just so realistic. The way they cut eachother off and have such confidence. Im just amazed..
"I live in the real world, I've seen it"
"What have you seen?!"
'Well I'm blind so nothing really'
"Redemption"
Matt: “Everyone can be fixed there’s always a glimmer of goodness.”
Also Matt: “If you don’t get that you can’t be fixed and you’re a nutjob”
Also Matt: "There is goodness in people, even in you."
@Wicker 2 Or maybe he doesn't think that someone being broken in some unfixable way necessarily means they're pure evil. Or maybe being in a heated argument with a murderer who has him chained made him say something out of ire to offend Frank that he doesn't _really_ believe. Y'know, there's more than one possible interpretation lol
@Wicker 2 I don't think he is a hypocrite. I think he is just trying to implore Punisher to start believing again that there is a glimmer of goodness in everyone. Like the Punisher has almost completely blocked it out, but it is still there. And he just says "You can't be fixed and you're a nutjob" to compare Punisher to the criminals. Like "if you think this, then you are the bad guy as well"
@Wicker 2 Daredevil is trying to make Frank look like the hypocrite, but it doesn't work. that is what I am trying to say. Like he is saying that he is just as bad as the criminals, and he deserves a chance as well. But he doesn't expect Frank to be so nonchalant about knowing that he is a horrible person.
I dunno, maybe.
Netflix was such a good place for these characters. The Disney/MCU execs would never allow something this layered