Great analysis and further makes the point that if you want to do anything construction related in the UK and have it turn out right, on time and on budget, then do it yourself! Looks like you have an excellent integration of sketchup with the your excel costing sheet, would you do an upload explaining your workflow sometime? I watch a lot of UK based construction related youtube and you content is top stuff and extremely useful !
Thanks a lot for your comment. On the SketchUp and spreadsheet integration, I made a video about my approach here. It didn’t seem to get a lot of interest so I haven’t followed up on it, which surprised me as I think the workflow has saved me so much hassle over the years and would be great for self builders. Here’s the vid…let me know what you think. GARDEN ROOM Sketchup tutorial build in 12 minutes with Sizes, downloads, order materials from model ruclips.net/video/3Or2ZQhWJ1U/видео.html
Thank you so much for this. I'm in the USA, Abq NM, and need to build a home workshop on concrete slab and in 2 stages. The end goal is 22ft deep x 60ft wide with a desired 10ft internal ceiling height, but will need to build just 22ft x 30ft at first due to costs. I also want to build the wall frames sturdy enough to eventually support a potential second floor living space / granny flat that would take up about 2/3 of the same 22x60 footprint (so the roof will be a truss system that can be easily removed at some point). Because I weld, I'm initially looking at using 4" square tubes for the main wall posts, set on 36" deep footers and set 4ft (or rather 4'-4" OC) apart with 4ft x 10ft of common stick frame walls in between the posts with a single wood stud set at 24" on center rather than typical 16" OC. Therefore this would create two large channels for insulation, potentially with 3.5" of spray foam as I was thinking I'd first cover the exterior of the walls in corrugated metal panels affixed direct to the steel posts and wood studs (and thus spray direct to the metal sheeting). Regardless, because of the envisioned 4ft spacings in between the main structural steel posts, I've been considering SIPs but have yet to do a cost comparison to see if what would probably be 22 of them would be a better way to go vs having to self-build each wall section (which would also come out to roughly 22 sections...plus door and garage door). I also don't know how the SIPs would attach to the steel posts vs using glue and what would likely be 2" metal screws for securing the standard stud framed walls. Lastly, I do like that SIPs have OSB on both sides as I could just keep that as the finished surface for the interior walls and seal / epoxy paint them and it gives an added exterior insulation layer. This also calls into question if the exterior OSB layer should then be foil faced and /or if I'd also need some plastic vapor barrier between the OSB and exterior metal paneling (vs the other method of spray foam direct). I use to build a lot of various stuff in my 20's (55 now) and worked for a time as a house framer, but this envisioned design is new territory for me in wanting to use both steel, wood, and some modern commercial build qualities. Please tell me your thoughts if ya got any! Thanks.
Great video, I’ve been installing sip kits for a while and I’ve noticed a lot of people wanting to build out of sips are looking to make green homes, ultra modern homes , energy efficient and make them air tight etc
Great videos, thanks. However I would like to point out that your timber-framed wall example that reaches a u-value of 0.10w/m2K adds up to an overall wall thickness of 427mm, not 328mm as stated. A similar wall thickness to the SIPS example and no reason why it should be that different in thickness anyway.
Im looking yo build a 50sqm extrnsion for a house in London, so heavily researching SIPS. With labour costs being so high in London, SIPS is looking considerably cheaper than traditional methods (not timber frame however). The other factor is the general standard of builders in London is very poor in the domestic residential market. Having the extension facrory made is very appealing as if planned well glazing can be order once the SIPs design has been signed off.
If you can make the economic argument work, and you don’t have the supply issues I mentioned in the video, yes SIPs will definitely help as you’re not so reliant on checking they’re using the right insulation, breather membrane, vapour barrier etc. Your quality control issues will centre around the glues they use for the stick junctions, and the junction with the sub structure. Thanks for your comment
Really interesting comparison. I've been researching a lot of content around SIPs recently and very interested in their potential in the UK. I hadn't come across an analysis as focused as this. It seems harsh but the numbers don't lie. I do believe that SIPs will overtake traditional building in the near future once manufacturing processes have improved and costs come down
I hope SIPs and other prefabricated technologies prosper…..but the problem the UK has always had since the 90s in the construction industry is lack of investment in plant and prefabrication. Volume house builders are just so dominant in the uk, and history tells us they are not going to change, despite their rhetoric. Just look at their sales brochures for what’s important to them. It’s left to smaller companies to innovate and for that, they need investment, which isn’t forthcoming. I know because I’ve been there myself. Thanks a lot for your comment.
What you want is both. Fabrication of Timberframe in factory, then brought to site. The huge savings come during the electrical phase where no special cutting away of SIP and fishing wiring through channels. I see no advantage to SIP.
You are very detailed and Thank you for the video. The only problem when you compare a DIY project to a project engineered and installed by a company it will be vastly more expensive. I would have like to see you contact a custom contractor and see what he priced it out as. You stated the SIPs dealer would deliver and install the walls. So I would like to see the cost of the same treatment with timber frame build. Not everyone has a garage of tools and team to DIY. $4.6k for a contractor to build an insulated studio in my backyard is an insane deal. You can't buy per built sheds for that cheap.
I’m not comparing a DIY project. No idea where you get that. The figures I show are with industry day rates and it’s a perfectly valid comparison to sips. I’ve no idea where you get the 4.6k for a studio in your backyard. You have your foundations, your roof, drainage and a host of other things to include, over and above, exactly the same for both methods. You mention tools, irrelevant, you need tools for both methods. Sheds? What??
@@build-better-things To clarify 5:22 "...for me and my colleges to build the walls and the roof..." To my understanding of DIY you and your friends building something is doing it yourself. When the SIP supplier installs the walls and roof that would not classify as Doing it yourself. I apologize. I understand my error when stating the cost for the entire cabin was $4.6k. My entire point was at 3:25 you stated transport, installation, and assembly by the SIPs company. This means you as the consumer are not using any tools or labor to build the walls and roof of this building. Comparing the price to building the walls and roof with your friends over 3 days is not a fair comparison. The fact that you repletely state this is real world numbers. Did you factor in the years of building experience you have and all the prices of the tools you will use. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you said at 5:22.
All my pricing in the examples shown in the video include labour costs at rates I charge my customers. If it’s for my own developments, I still need to factor in labour rates where lending is involved. Yes, of course DIY has no labour cost. Yes , it appears you’ve misunderstood it.
I worked most of my career as an analyst in the City. We took a lot of stick for being a bit shark like but at least when I was there, reputation was everything and you kept your word. I the last 4 years of my career I switched coverage to green tech. You almost wanted to count your fingers if you shook hands. No concept of shareholder value, they just expected shareholders to cough up more for no return! Some interesting ideas but no idea how to implement cost effectively . Fuel cell tech was the worst billions pumped in over 4 decades but we still do not have a commercially viable fuel cell. I suspect SIPs is much the same and heat pumps too. You take a simple and good idea and turn it over to the double glazing boys, who ramp up the price and blow the budget. Sips are a very basic concept, 2 sheets of 11mm OSB at £10 per sheet and a sheet of foam £58 ex vat, some glue and a press. Let’s say £90 in materials. So why are they so pricey? Lack of scale and lack of nous! Materials are cheap probably less than £90 presses are not. The number of presses limits production, hence big lead times and deposits required to finance holding the materials. How many presses would a manufacturer need depends on glue setting time but each press would probably cost between £30k and £50k more for computer control. It suddenly becomes a capital an ,machine intensive operation which needs volume for economy of scale.
Yes. House builders won’t invest in the cap ex because they say demand isn’t there. It’s true. Demand isn’t there because there’s no economies of scale. Classic chicken and egg in construction industry in UK.
I don't recommend buying from the dictators but I bought SIP panels with 15mm OSB in 2019, total thickness was 15+190+15 (OSB+EPS+OSB) and I payed 105 USD per piece (1200x3000) so about 30 USD per square meter, then I payed a high price for the 20 feet shipping container but I got even more when I sold it in Sweden so I can't add that cost really, but I can add the 2000USD customs fee for handling import and 25% VAT (bought it as private customer so no VAT return.) But in total I payed close to 8000 USD for 145 square meter of outer wall with 190mm EPS insulation which I think is very price competitive. I also bought 150 sheets of grade B+ pine Plywood for 34 USD per piece and 54 pieces of 6m long 45x300 LVL Beams that are flawless for 60 USD per piece. So regarding how crazy the prices became in Sweden during Covid I saved a real big chunk by the China trades but I'm not sure I would do it again.
Interesting video, full of useful information but you were talking about EPS SIPs not PIR so I'm not sure the thickness comparison for a given U-value, with timber frame infilled with PIR, stacks up. However PIR SIPS would be even more expensive than EPS ones so the cost comparison certainly does.
The reason I didn’t cover PIR was because the three manufacturers I looked at didn’t use them. Agree with the points you make about thickness and cost, and thanks for your comment.
Ive just built a garden room using sips. For me the cost increase (not all that much) was worth it for the speed of construction which saves me money - because quite simply money is time!
Good to hear. My experience was different from yours. I tried for several weeks to get them to just reply to my emails, all 3 companies. Then the only one to come back , minimum of 10 weeks for delivery of panels… after the engineering!!!?. So probably 3 - 4 months. What a joke. No speed. For timber frame on the other hand, I can get the whole kit delivered to my door within a few days, and built within a couple of weeks tops. My thinking was, imagine if they’re like that now, what it’s going to be like once they’ve actually got my deposit. Hopefully your experience was different.
@@build-better-things Don't get me wrong, I contacted a couple of companies and heard nothing. The one I used had good customer service from the start i.e. responded to my e-mails! I ordered ahead of when I anticipated to build and even though I live in the Scottish Highlands I received them around 5-6 weeks after ordering which was pretty decent (they were up front about how long it would take and kept to this schedule). I'd agree that if you want the materials quickly, SIPs have a definite draw back next to going to a merchant and picking up all that you need that day or so.
Very interesting. I always found SIPs companies to come across a bit ‘salesy’. I wonder if they become more cost effective with larger buildings, like a 3000sqft new build.
Yes, that’s when SIPs can get a little more competitive, through the prefabrication process then speed of construction to wind and watertight. Even then, I’d be very careful about marketing claims of the benefits, and forensic with the comparison (hidden costs such as crane costs, engineering costs, costs of drawing up the schedule of panels). Important to remember…places like in the USA, land availability means 3000sqft new build house opportunities are not uncommon, in the UK, for example, due to the planning policies and the cost of land, you’d need to be very wealthy or very lucky or be in a very remote location to have the luxury of a new build home of that size. Thanks for your comment.
Great video but there is no way you can build timber framed building for that price. The cost of labour would be enormous unless you did it yourself. Builders don't do hourly rates they will price the whole job.
I’ve showed the labour figures in the video within the spreadsheet. These are day rate prices I charged my own customers at the time of making. If there’s no way, as you say, then would you increase 1) the time I’ve allowed in the spreadsheet, or 2) increase the labour rates, and how long would you allow, and at what rate?
Really good insight provided here with the facts.......... Great video...... I have had a few friends recommending Sips but the math never added up to me
Great comparison, but there seems so much bias in it. Cost comparison alone it would have been great to have 2-3 quotes for the timber frame build. Seeing the sips build cost was based on a fully built structure. I imagine timber is more expensive with labour factored in from a non DIYers persepctive. Also the likes of kingspan tek-13 achieves a 0.13 u value for a wall thickness of 370mm as a reference.
I really don’t care which system I use, I just want to use the best, which is why I do the analysis. I mention in the video I went for 3 quotes…did you see that bit? On the labour cost, I factored in industry timber frame build rates in the spreadsheet part of the video, as I need it to be a like for like comparison with SIPs without the diy element. For Diyers further savings over SIPs could be made therefore . Kingspan Tek13 is not a like for like comparison as it returns only 0.13. I used 0.10 as the u value benchmark for the comparison. Maybe it’s you that has the bias 😉. Only joking and thanks for the comment.
@@build-better-things He was asking for quotes for the timber frame build. You asked for 3 quotes for the SIPs. Also I would love to find a contract that could build a studio for $4.6k. For comparison Home Depo sells a insulated shed 12x24 for $4.4k. There is no way a contractor is quoting a custom build under 10k.
You’ve said the same in another comment. You are confused about the 4.6k, I’ve tried to explain in the other comment. Whether Sips or Stick construction, you have membrane, drainage, electrics, foundations, site clearance and a host of other things. This is a like for like comparison for just the timber skeleton and the insulation
Since I was in the carpenters union, and I have built several kinds of construction, I personally stick with SIP. Our company put up seven metal SIP schools in Florida versus another company who put a eight conventional. WE were done 7 months ahead of the others guys. Wood SIPs are slightly more difficult because of weight. However, Planning is always the secret on every job, but SIPs are too easy.
SIPs should be easier, except they’re not, at least not in the UK, and I hope I made it clear why, in the video. Pricing is one thing, SIPs in the UK is very expensive, I don’t mind paying for value, but, customer service is non existent, pathetic in fact, from all three of the manufacturers I approached, there’s no excuse for it, it costs nothing to engage with your potential customers and it says a lot about the attitude of the people running these companies .
I can understand because I once dealt with a manufacturer there. The regulations and taxes in the UK are over the top, as well. Sorry. In 2006, I traveled thru the US to find a good. cost effective manufacturer. I have great support, better pricing, and a refined process. Things have improved in the US because this kind of construction is more widely known and understood than 20years ago. Now, from a build perspective, it is hard to beat a SIP. I am restarting my building business and only building Timber frame with wood SIP overlay, metal SIP for garage and barns (and houseboat). Easy process, super solid house, very flexible and scalable system. @@build-better-things
Pricing up for an Aframe in Sweden, self build,,for some reason the local building planner is pushing for SIPS, which makes no sense, as my last roofing project was all stick with 380mm insulation/truss depth. Seems to be a breakdown in thought between architects and builders.
Everyone loves SIPs, especially architects. They think they’re better, but I don’t think they’ve ever actually analysed them, because they’ve never actually had to go through the experience of buying them. I would imagine your local planner in Sweden can only make rulings based on performance, not choice of specification, so for example, heat loss, air tightness, breathable aspect. All of this can be objectively compared and demonstrated using either technologies. I wouldn’t have thought they would perform any differently with regards Sweden’s specific climate given they’re both made of essentially the same materials.
@@build-better-things Given my current house has walls made of sticks wrapped in straw and mud, they lose the "green" argument everytime, but seem fixated on "R" value above all else, including what people can afford.
Hi @build-better-things, I'm wondering how you batten out the exterior of the stud wall over the insulation and which side of the I insulation the breather membrane goes? Finally, the DPM, would you lap that up over the insulation or between that and the OSB and over or behind the breather membrane? I was totally sold on SIPs but I've done the sums and it's madness how much cheaper timber framing is. (I'm looking at building an approx 6mx6m infill extension on a 1930s detached house). I've commented about suspended v solid floor as I'd like suspended but until now the solid seemed marginally cheaper, however now I've done the sums on the framing suspended flooring seems like a winner. Just need some hefty joists (or easi-joists) to span the 6m! Unless of course you would recommend at least one block support and divide the flooring up into sections?
Hi. Breather membrane on cold side. If you mean the battens for the cladding, long screws through the insulation and membrane and into the wall studs. I’m not sure what you mean about DPM. That goes under your concrete slab or below the solum fora suspended timber floor. In terms of my preference, I’ll go for timber floor with solum over concrete all day long. I’ve made videos about Dpm, timber walls with insulation, and solum so check those out and thanks for the comment
@@build-better-things Thank you 👍🏼 The DPM laping was something I had seen advised elsewhere. The idea being that you pin the dpm excess up against the side of the structure, however that felt like a way for condensation to run down and get trapped 🤷🏻♂️ I'll go and find those other videos now.
Have you heard or anyone using a sips floor with timber framing for the rest of the build? Would you think there's any advantage to this idea if building a small house that would sit on a pier and beam foundation?
I think with sips it’s about economies of volume. Just getting a floor set up for you on their presses isn’t going to be cheap. However, getting the floor down and a working platform in place is a big deal. I’d do it if I could trust the manufacturer to deliver. My experience is they (sips manufacturers) take your money but then don’t deliver in the time they promise.
sips can work well. don’t agree with you that it’s less work, unless it’s a very big job, or you’ve already got a press, or you do lots of repeat work with a local manufacturer.
Yes, you choose which insulation manufacturer you want, and most of them have an online calculator where you fill in your wall, floor or roof makeups, and it selects the appropriate insulation. Good luck.
@@build-better-thingsThanks Jerry, that's great. Is there a calculator that can then help me work out how much energy is required to heat a space given the estimated u value. That would be useful to work out ROI of various types of insulation. Thanks again.
For that you need to calculate the volume of each room, then you can go to a heating company, one that sells radiators, and that have calculators that do that.
The problem here is, you didn't consider IMPs, such as steel-skinned SIPs. Granted, most people want "pretty"... which includes interior/exterior cladding and a load of other unnecessary factors. If your customer is sensible, and just wants a structure to serve the purpose... steel-skinned SIPs can't be beat, aside from lead times. Often requires no exterior framing for single story, minimal thermal bridging, drastically reduced dried-in times, reduced vertical and gross load. The only downside is the added cost/time/materials of conduit for interior electrical. Steel SIPs provide the best investment for buyers, because a larger portion of the investment is going where it is most important... insulative performance, envelope, and structural integrity.... ESPECIALLY with modern code changes focusing so much on energy efficiency and moisture control.
For small domestic projects, Steel sips are even more expensive than the timber sips I mention here….(so way WAY more expensive than frame), ugly, crazy long lead times, and, contrary to what you say, they perform no better than timber frame, since we’re measuring by u value versus overall thickness. I know, because I’ve done the maths. You clearly like them, so by all means spend 3 to 4 times your budget to get the same result as frame, but that isn’t feasible, nor is it reality for most. Once you include cladding, service voids, fixings and flashings, they’re the worse solution by far, and not worth considering.
@build-better-things - I guess things are different in your location. Steel SIPs are more expensive... but the speed and labor savings are significant. Also, I don't know where you get your performance numbers from... but an 8" stick frame wall stands no chance against the clear wall R-rating of an 8" steel-skinned panel, even with an EPS core.
Except, …like all who promote sips with these claims ,….you’re conveniently forgetting about including the additional elements you need to add for SIPs, to get a like for comparison to timber frame. I go through it in the video.
@build-better-things - "...the addtional elements you need to add for SIPs." IMPs require track, screws, and non-skinning sealer. If your experience says otherwise, you were using the wrong SIPs. The only questionably addtional requirement of IMPs, is conduit for electrical... but considering the elimination of drywall and paint, I wouldn't call that addtional.
Strip foundation with timber suspended floor. Reason being if you’re doing timber frame for the walls and roof, with all the set up that entails, why not do it for the floor as well. Concrete floor is fine as well, but you’d still need a strip foundation for the loading of the walls. If it’s a simple garden room, I’ve seen people building their walls off a slab they’ve poured, not sure I’d do that, without thickening up the edges to take wall loadings, then you’re as well saying, why don’t I just put in mini piles as I’m doing here, which is perfect for a suspended timber floor. Don’t underestimate the work that goes into pouring a slab with insulation and Dpm as well. Hope that helps
I like the piles idea as its an easier option. Another idea I seen was steal beam on concrete small patio type slab foundation with suspended timber floor. Which looks even easier.
Hi Jerry. How do you fasten 50mm insulation externally over the studs? How would i then fasten render board over the pir? Im assuming I'll need some sort of DPM between render board and PIR. Thanks again.
Put a couple of temporary fixings through the insulation into the studs , to support your insulation, then add your breather membrane, then you fix your vertical battens through the insulation and into your studs using tube washers and fasteners which will also support your insulation. Then you add counter battens and then your render board.
@@build-better-things Amazing thanks! What if I don't want the ventilation behind the render board in the interest of making the wall as thin as possible? Can I use some sort of waterproof render that will keep the rain off the wall? I'll have a good quality vapour control layer on the inside so no moisture will get through in to the studs from inside. Similarly if the render is perfectly waterproof then the studs will remain high and dry permanently. I know some of the EWI manufacturers claim their silicone render can provide that degree of waterproofing to the outside. What do you think?
@@build-better-things Thanks Jerry, I'll definitely keep the ventilation gap. I've got a load of 10mm battens that I can use as vertical battens and counter battens = 20mm gap. Is that adequate or is more required? Also, can you help me understand the science of ventilation gaps. What exactly is the ventilation gap drying out if water can't get in from inside or outside? Thanks again.
@@DoctorRetina strictly speaking needs to be 50mm but for a single story you might be ok at 20 if you’re really set on reducing the depth. Need to have gaps or vents too and bottom. The purpose of the ventilated cavity is two fold. To allow vapour to evaporatethrough the breather membrane, combat any dew point , as well as any residual moisture that gets in through damp or the outside. Look up “rain screen” to get a full description as I can’t do it here
Great analysis and further makes the point that if you want to do anything construction related in the UK and have it turn out right, on time and on budget, then do it yourself!
Looks like you have an excellent integration of sketchup with the your excel costing sheet, would you do an upload explaining your workflow sometime?
I watch a lot of UK based construction related youtube and you content is top stuff and extremely useful !
Thanks a lot for your comment. On the SketchUp and spreadsheet integration, I made a video about my approach here. It didn’t seem to get a lot of interest so I haven’t followed up on it, which surprised me as I think the workflow has saved me so much hassle over the years and would be great for self builders. Here’s the vid…let me know what you think.
GARDEN ROOM Sketchup tutorial build in 12 minutes with Sizes, downloads, order materials from model
ruclips.net/video/3Or2ZQhWJ1U/видео.html
Thank you so much for this. I'm in the USA, Abq NM, and need to build a home workshop on concrete slab and in 2 stages. The end goal is 22ft deep x 60ft wide with a desired 10ft internal ceiling height, but will need to build just 22ft x 30ft at first due to costs. I also want to build the wall frames sturdy enough to eventually support a potential second floor living space / granny flat that would take up about 2/3 of the same 22x60 footprint (so the roof will be a truss system that can be easily removed at some point). Because I weld, I'm initially looking at using 4" square tubes for the main wall posts, set on 36" deep footers and set 4ft (or rather 4'-4" OC) apart with 4ft x 10ft of common stick frame walls in between the posts with a single wood stud set at 24" on center rather than typical 16" OC. Therefore this would create two large channels for insulation, potentially with 3.5" of spray foam as I was thinking I'd first cover the exterior of the walls in corrugated metal panels affixed direct to the steel posts and wood studs (and thus spray direct to the metal sheeting).
Regardless, because of the envisioned 4ft spacings in between the main structural steel posts, I've been considering SIPs but have yet to do a cost comparison to see if what would probably be 22 of them would be a better way to go vs having to self-build each wall section (which would also come out to roughly 22 sections...plus door and garage door). I also don't know how the SIPs would attach to the steel posts vs using glue and what would likely be 2" metal screws for securing the standard stud framed walls. Lastly, I do like that SIPs have OSB on both sides as I could just keep that as the finished surface for the interior walls and seal / epoxy paint them and it gives an added exterior insulation layer. This also calls into question if the exterior OSB layer should then be foil faced and /or if I'd also need some plastic vapor barrier between the OSB and exterior metal paneling (vs the other method of spray foam direct).
I use to build a lot of various stuff in my 20's (55 now) and worked for a time as a house framer, but this envisioned design is new territory for me in wanting to use both steel, wood, and some modern commercial build qualities. Please tell me your thoughts if ya got any! Thanks.
Great video, I’ve been installing sip kits for a while and I’ve noticed a lot of people wanting to build out of sips are looking to make green homes, ultra modern homes , energy efficient and make them air tight etc
Great videos, thanks. However I would like to point out that your timber-framed wall example that reaches a u-value of 0.10w/m2K adds up to an overall wall thickness of 427mm, not 328mm as stated. A similar wall thickness to the SIPS example and no reason why it should be that different in thickness anyway.
Great content! Keep up the good work. Getting me prepped to build my outbuilding 🙏
Thanks. Good luck with your project.
Im looking yo build a 50sqm extrnsion for a house in London, so heavily researching SIPS. With labour costs being so high in London, SIPS is looking considerably cheaper than traditional methods (not timber frame however). The other factor is the general standard of builders in London is very poor in the domestic residential market. Having the extension facrory made is very appealing as if planned well glazing can be order once the SIPs design has been signed off.
If you can make the economic argument work, and you don’t have the supply issues I mentioned in the video, yes SIPs will definitely help as you’re not so reliant on checking they’re using the right insulation, breather membrane, vapour barrier etc. Your quality control issues will centre around the glues they use for the stick junctions, and the junction with the sub structure. Thanks for your comment
Thoroughly enjoyable and informative, thank you Sir.
Really interesting comparison. I've been researching a lot of content around SIPs recently and very interested in their potential in the UK. I hadn't come across an analysis as focused as this. It seems harsh but the numbers don't lie. I do believe that SIPs will overtake traditional building in the near future once manufacturing processes have improved and costs come down
I hope SIPs and other prefabricated technologies prosper…..but the problem the UK has always had since the 90s in the construction industry is lack of investment in plant and prefabrication. Volume house builders are just so dominant in the uk, and history tells us they are not going to change, despite their rhetoric. Just look at their sales brochures for what’s important to them. It’s left to smaller companies to innovate and for that, they need investment, which isn’t forthcoming. I know because I’ve been there myself. Thanks a lot for your comment.
What you want is both.
Fabrication of Timberframe in factory, then brought to site. The huge savings come during the electrical phase where no special cutting away of SIP and fishing wiring through channels.
I see no advantage to SIP.
You are very detailed and Thank you for the video. The only problem when you compare a DIY project to a project engineered and installed by a company it will be vastly more expensive. I would have like to see you contact a custom contractor and see what he priced it out as. You stated the SIPs dealer would deliver and install the walls. So I would like to see the cost of the same treatment with timber frame build. Not everyone has a garage of tools and team to DIY. $4.6k for a contractor to build an insulated studio in my backyard is an insane deal. You can't buy per built sheds for that cheap.
I’m not comparing a DIY project. No idea where you get that. The figures I show are with industry day rates and it’s a perfectly valid comparison to sips. I’ve no idea where you get the 4.6k for a studio in your backyard. You have your foundations, your roof, drainage and a host of other things to include, over and above, exactly the same for both methods. You mention tools, irrelevant, you need tools for both methods. Sheds? What??
@@build-better-things To clarify
5:22 "...for me and my colleges to build the walls and the roof..." To my understanding of DIY you and your friends building something is doing it yourself. When the SIP supplier installs the walls and roof that would not classify as Doing it yourself.
I apologize. I understand my error when stating the cost for the entire cabin was $4.6k.
My entire point was at 3:25 you stated transport, installation, and assembly by the SIPs company. This means you as the consumer are not using any tools or labor to build the walls and roof of this building. Comparing the price to building the walls and roof with your friends over 3 days is not a fair comparison. The fact that you repletely state this is real world numbers. Did you factor in the years of building experience you have and all the prices of the tools you will use. Please let me know if I misunderstood what you said at 5:22.
All my pricing in the examples shown in the video include labour costs at rates I charge my customers. If it’s for my own developments, I still need to factor in labour rates where lending is involved. Yes, of course DIY has no labour cost. Yes , it appears you’ve misunderstood it.
Excellent analysis, thank you.
I worked most of my career as an analyst in the City. We took a lot of stick for being a bit shark like but at least when I was there, reputation was everything and you kept your word. I the last 4 years of my career I switched coverage to green tech. You almost wanted to count your fingers if you shook hands. No concept of shareholder value, they just expected shareholders to cough up more for no return! Some interesting ideas but no idea how to implement cost effectively . Fuel cell tech was the worst billions pumped in over 4 decades but we still do not have a commercially viable fuel cell. I suspect SIPs is much the same and heat pumps too. You take a simple and good idea and turn it over to the double glazing boys, who ramp up the price and blow the budget. Sips are a very basic concept, 2 sheets of 11mm OSB at £10 per sheet and a sheet of foam £58 ex vat, some glue and a press. Let’s say £90 in materials. So why are they so pricey? Lack of scale and lack of nous! Materials are cheap probably less than £90 presses are not. The number of presses limits production, hence big lead times and deposits required to finance holding the materials. How many presses would a manufacturer need depends on glue setting time but each press would probably cost between £30k and £50k more for computer control. It suddenly becomes a capital an ,machine intensive operation which needs volume for economy of scale.
Yes. House builders won’t invest in the cap ex because they say demand isn’t there. It’s true. Demand isn’t there because there’s no economies of scale. Classic chicken and egg in construction industry in UK.
I don't recommend buying from the dictators but I bought SIP panels with 15mm OSB in 2019, total thickness was 15+190+15 (OSB+EPS+OSB) and I payed 105 USD per piece (1200x3000) so about 30 USD per square meter, then I payed a high price for the 20 feet shipping container but I got even more when I sold it in Sweden so I can't add that cost really, but I can add the 2000USD customs fee for handling import and 25% VAT (bought it as private customer so no VAT return.) But in total I payed close to 8000 USD for 145 square meter of outer wall with 190mm EPS insulation which I think is very price competitive. I also bought 150 sheets of grade B+ pine Plywood for 34 USD per piece and 54 pieces of 6m long 45x300 LVL Beams that are flawless for 60 USD per piece. So regarding how crazy the prices became in Sweden during Covid I saved a real big chunk by the China trades but I'm not sure I would do it again.
Bloody love this guy.
Your thickness calculation is wrong for the timber frame. Its actually 427mm thick.
Interesting video, full of useful information but you were talking about EPS SIPs not PIR so I'm not sure the thickness comparison for a given U-value, with timber frame infilled with PIR, stacks up. However PIR SIPS would be even more expensive than EPS ones so the cost comparison certainly does.
The reason I didn’t cover PIR was because the three manufacturers I looked at didn’t use them. Agree with the points you make about thickness and cost, and thanks for your comment.
Ive just built a garden room using sips. For me the cost increase (not all that much) was worth it for the speed of construction which saves me money - because quite simply money is time!
Good to hear. My experience was different from yours. I tried for several weeks to get them to just reply to my emails, all 3 companies. Then the only one to come back , minimum of 10 weeks for delivery of panels… after the engineering!!!?. So probably 3 - 4 months. What a joke. No speed. For timber frame on the other hand, I can get the whole kit delivered to my door within a few days, and built within a couple of weeks tops. My thinking was, imagine if they’re like that now, what it’s going to be like once they’ve actually got my deposit. Hopefully your experience was different.
@@build-better-things Don't get me wrong, I contacted a couple of companies and heard nothing. The one I used had good customer service from the start i.e. responded to my e-mails! I ordered ahead of when I anticipated to build and even though I live in the Scottish Highlands I received them around 5-6 weeks after ordering which was pretty decent (they were up front about how long it would take and kept to this schedule). I'd agree that if you want the materials quickly, SIPs have a definite draw back next to going to a merchant and picking up all that you need that day or so.
Very interesting. I always found SIPs companies to come across a bit ‘salesy’.
I wonder if they become more cost effective with larger buildings, like a 3000sqft new build.
Yes, that’s when SIPs can get a little more competitive, through the prefabrication process then speed of construction to wind and watertight. Even then, I’d be very careful about marketing claims of the benefits, and forensic with the comparison (hidden costs such as crane costs, engineering costs, costs of drawing up the schedule of panels). Important to remember…places like in the USA, land availability means 3000sqft new build house opportunities are not uncommon, in the UK, for example, due to the planning policies and the cost of land, you’d need to be very wealthy or very lucky or be in a very remote location to have the luxury of a new build home of that size. Thanks for your comment.
Great video but there is no way you can build timber framed building for that price. The cost of labour would be enormous unless you did it yourself. Builders don't do hourly rates they will price the whole job.
I’ve showed the labour figures in the video within the spreadsheet. These are day rate prices I charged my own customers at the time of making. If there’s no way, as you say, then would you increase 1) the time I’ve allowed in the spreadsheet, or 2) increase the labour rates, and how long would you allow, and at what rate?
Really good insight provided here with the facts.......... Great video...... I have had a few friends recommending Sips but the math never added up to me
Thanks for your comment Peter.
U must be using low prices would struggle to get materials alone for that price IMO
Great comparison, but there seems so much bias in it.
Cost comparison alone it would have been great to have 2-3 quotes for the timber frame build. Seeing the sips build cost was based on a fully built structure. I imagine timber is more expensive with labour factored in from a non DIYers persepctive.
Also the likes of kingspan tek-13 achieves a 0.13 u value for a wall thickness of 370mm as a reference.
I really don’t care which system I use, I just want to use the best, which is why I do the analysis. I mention in the video I went for 3 quotes…did you see that bit? On the labour cost, I factored in industry timber frame build rates in the spreadsheet part of the video, as I need it to be a like for like comparison with SIPs without the diy element. For Diyers further savings over SIPs could be made therefore .
Kingspan Tek13 is not a like for like comparison as it returns only 0.13. I used 0.10 as the u value benchmark for the comparison. Maybe it’s you that has the bias 😉. Only joking and thanks for the comment.
@@build-better-things He was asking for quotes for the timber frame build. You asked for 3 quotes for the SIPs. Also I would love to find a contract that could build a studio for $4.6k. For comparison Home Depo sells a insulated shed 12x24 for $4.4k. There is no way a contractor is quoting a custom build under 10k.
You’ve said the same in another comment. You are confused about the 4.6k, I’ve tried to explain in the other comment. Whether Sips or Stick construction, you have membrane, drainage, electrics, foundations, site clearance and a host of other things. This is a like for like comparison for just the timber skeleton and the insulation
Since I was in the carpenters union, and I have built several kinds of construction, I personally stick with SIP. Our company put up seven metal SIP schools in Florida versus another company who put a eight conventional. WE were done 7 months ahead of the others guys. Wood SIPs are slightly more difficult because of weight. However, Planning is always the secret on every job, but SIPs are too easy.
SIPs should be easier, except they’re not, at least not in the UK, and I hope I made it clear why, in the video. Pricing is one thing, SIPs in the UK is very expensive, I don’t mind paying for value, but, customer service is non existent, pathetic in fact, from all three of the manufacturers I approached, there’s no excuse for it, it costs nothing to engage with your potential customers and it says a lot about the attitude of the people running these companies .
I can understand because I once dealt with a manufacturer there. The regulations and taxes in the UK are over the top, as well. Sorry. In 2006, I traveled thru the US to find a good. cost effective manufacturer. I have great support, better pricing, and a refined process. Things have improved in the US because this kind of construction is more widely known and understood than 20years ago. Now, from a build perspective, it is hard to beat a SIP. I am restarting my building business and only building Timber frame with wood SIP overlay, metal SIP for garage and barns (and houseboat). Easy process, super solid house, very flexible and scalable system. @@build-better-things
@@build-better-things I always hate it when they treat you like a number.
Pricing up for an Aframe in Sweden, self build,,for some reason the local building planner is pushing for SIPS, which makes no sense, as my last roofing project was all stick with 380mm insulation/truss depth. Seems to be a breakdown in thought between architects and builders.
Everyone loves SIPs, especially architects. They think they’re better, but I don’t think they’ve ever actually analysed them, because they’ve never actually had to go through the experience of buying them. I would imagine your local planner in Sweden can only make rulings based on performance, not choice of specification, so for example, heat loss, air tightness, breathable aspect. All of this can be objectively compared and demonstrated using either technologies. I wouldn’t have thought they would perform any differently with regards Sweden’s specific climate given they’re both made of essentially the same materials.
@@build-better-things Given my current house has walls made of sticks wrapped in straw and mud, they lose the "green" argument everytime, but seem fixated on "R" value above all else, including what people can afford.
Hi @build-better-things, I'm wondering how you batten out the exterior of the stud wall over the insulation and which side of the I insulation the breather membrane goes? Finally, the DPM, would you lap that up over the insulation or between that and the OSB and over or behind the breather membrane?
I was totally sold on SIPs but I've done the sums and it's madness how much cheaper timber framing is. (I'm looking at building an approx 6mx6m infill extension on a 1930s detached house). I've commented about suspended v solid floor as I'd like suspended but until now the solid seemed marginally cheaper, however now I've done the sums on the framing suspended flooring seems like a winner. Just need some hefty joists (or easi-joists) to span the 6m! Unless of course you would recommend at least one block support and divide the flooring up into sections?
Hi. Breather membrane on cold side. If you mean the battens for the cladding, long screws through the insulation and membrane and into the wall studs. I’m not sure what you mean about DPM. That goes under your concrete slab or below the solum fora suspended timber floor. In terms of my preference, I’ll go for timber floor with solum over concrete all day long. I’ve made videos about Dpm, timber walls with insulation, and solum so check those out and thanks for the comment
@@build-better-things Thank you 👍🏼 The DPM laping was something I had seen advised elsewhere. The idea being that you pin the dpm excess up against the side of the structure, however that felt like a way for condensation to run down and get trapped 🤷🏻♂️ I'll go and find those other videos now.
Have you heard or anyone using a sips floor with timber framing for the rest of the build? Would you think there's any advantage to this idea if building a small house that would sit on a pier and beam foundation?
I think with sips it’s about economies of volume. Just getting a floor set up for you on their presses isn’t going to be cheap. However, getting the floor down and a working platform in place is a big deal. I’d do it if I could trust the manufacturer to deliver. My experience is they (sips manufacturers) take your money but then don’t deliver in the time they promise.
My company build almost everything with Sip, its a really nice system. We also do traditional timber frame but its a lot of more work.
sips can work well. don’t agree with you that it’s less work, unless it’s a very big job, or you’ve already got a press, or you do lots of repeat work with a local manufacturer.
Great vid.
How can i calculate u value of my wall, is there an online calculator or better yet a spreadsheet?
Thanks
Yes, you choose which insulation manufacturer you want, and most of them have an online calculator where you fill in your wall, floor or roof makeups, and it selects the appropriate insulation. Good luck.
@@build-better-thingsThanks Jerry, that's great. Is there a calculator that can then help me work out how much energy is required to heat a space given the estimated u value. That would be useful to work out ROI of various types of insulation.
Thanks again.
For that you need to calculate the volume of each room, then you can go to a heating company, one that sells radiators, and that have calculators that do that.
The problem here is, you didn't consider IMPs, such as steel-skinned SIPs. Granted, most people want "pretty"... which includes interior/exterior cladding and a load of other unnecessary factors. If your customer is sensible, and just wants a structure to serve the purpose... steel-skinned SIPs can't be beat, aside from lead times. Often requires no exterior framing for single story, minimal thermal bridging, drastically reduced dried-in times, reduced vertical and gross load. The only downside is the added cost/time/materials of conduit for interior electrical.
Steel SIPs provide the best investment for buyers, because a larger portion of the investment is going where it is most important... insulative performance, envelope, and structural integrity.... ESPECIALLY with modern code changes focusing so much on energy efficiency and moisture control.
For small domestic projects, Steel sips are even more expensive than the timber sips I mention here….(so way WAY more expensive than frame), ugly, crazy long lead times, and, contrary to what you say, they perform no better than timber frame, since we’re measuring by u value versus overall thickness. I know, because I’ve done the maths. You clearly like them, so by all means spend 3 to 4 times your budget to get the same result as frame, but that isn’t feasible, nor is it reality for most. Once you include cladding, service voids, fixings and flashings, they’re the worse solution by far, and not worth considering.
@build-better-things - I guess things are different in your location. Steel SIPs are more expensive... but the speed and labor savings are significant. Also, I don't know where you get your performance numbers from... but an 8" stick frame wall stands no chance against the clear wall R-rating of an 8" steel-skinned panel, even with an EPS core.
Except, …like all who promote sips with these claims ,….you’re conveniently forgetting about including the additional elements you need to add for SIPs, to get a like for comparison to timber frame. I go through it in the video.
@build-better-things - "...the addtional elements you need to add for SIPs."
IMPs require track, screws, and non-skinning sealer. If your experience says otherwise, you were using the wrong SIPs. The only questionably addtional requirement of IMPs, is conduit for electrical... but considering the elimination of drywall and paint, I wouldn't call that addtional.
What kind of foundation would you recommend for those wooden frame extensions. Does it have to be concrete base with brick border
Strip foundation with timber suspended floor. Reason being if you’re doing timber frame for the walls and roof, with all the set up that entails, why not do it for the floor as well. Concrete floor is fine as well, but you’d still need a strip foundation for the loading of the walls. If it’s a simple garden room, I’ve seen people building their walls off a slab they’ve poured, not sure I’d do that, without thickening up the edges to take wall loadings, then you’re as well saying, why don’t I just put in mini piles as I’m doing here, which is perfect for a suspended timber floor. Don’t underestimate the work that goes into pouring a slab with insulation and Dpm as well. Hope that helps
I like the piles idea as its an easier option. Another idea I seen was steal beam on concrete small patio type slab foundation with suspended timber floor. Which looks even easier.
I’m sold, going to do timber frame and spray foam insulation. Great video
@stephenosman2462 Be careful with spray foam and make sure you read up on it. It’s not something I would recommend.
Hi Jerry.
How do you fasten 50mm insulation externally over the studs?
How would i then fasten render board over the pir? Im assuming I'll need some sort of DPM between render board and PIR.
Thanks again.
Put a couple of temporary fixings through the insulation into the studs , to support your insulation, then add your breather membrane, then you fix your vertical battens through the insulation and into your studs using tube washers and fasteners which will also support your insulation. Then you add counter battens and then your render board.
@@build-better-things
Amazing thanks!
What if I don't want the ventilation behind the render board in the interest of making the wall as thin as possible?
Can I use some sort of waterproof render that will keep the rain off the wall?
I'll have a good quality vapour control layer on the inside so no moisture will get through in to the studs from inside.
Similarly if the render is perfectly waterproof then the studs will remain high and dry permanently.
I know some of the EWI manufacturers claim their silicone render can provide that degree of waterproofing to the outside.
What do you think?
@DoctorRetina you definitely, 100pc , need ventilation between the membrane and your render board, regardless of the vapour barrier.
@@build-better-things
Thanks Jerry, I'll definitely keep the ventilation gap.
I've got a load of 10mm battens that I can use as vertical battens and counter battens = 20mm gap. Is that adequate or is more required?
Also, can you help me understand the science of ventilation gaps. What exactly is the ventilation gap drying out if water can't get in from inside or outside?
Thanks again.
@@DoctorRetina strictly speaking needs to be 50mm but for a single story you might be ok at 20 if you’re really set on reducing the depth. Need to have gaps or vents too and bottom. The purpose of the ventilated cavity is two fold. To allow vapour to evaporatethrough the breather membrane, combat any dew point , as well as any residual moisture that gets in through damp or the outside. Look up “rain screen” to get a full description as I can’t do it here
Your great at this stuff keep it up, so much bullshit out there.
Use both. Wrap your timber frame in sips. No brainer
Except your wall will be around 400mm thick and then there’s the cost.
@@build-better-things you can get sips in different thicknesses. 4” foam for walls and 6” for roof! The cost will be made up in efficiency!
Four inch sips panels perform worse than four inch PIR boards. You wrap your studs in PIR, which is what I show in the video , never with sips.