Debunking "The Bible vs. Joseph Smith"
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
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Joel Kramer, of "Expedition Bible" fame, made an anti-mormon hit piece. In this video, we react to "The Bible vs. Joseph Smith". We hope you like it.
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![Chlöe - Shake (Feat. Jeremih) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aDs_1ufpfv8/mqdefault.jpg)
I had a professor say that the loss of plain and precious truths weren't things that were literally erased from the Bible or manuscripts, but by the lens of interpretation prevents understanding the the plain and precious truths.
What does the professor have to say about all the books that never made it into the bible or the myriad of Joseph Smith translations that correct false doctrines?
@@benjamingregersen9777 can you give me reference to which writing this is if Justyn Martyr? I have his works on an app and would love to read this. Please and thanks 😊
@@matthewkramer9975 I absolutely can reference that for you. The statement is actually from Justin the Martyr's most famous publication. I forget the name of it, but I will do my due diligence and give you a direct quote. I believe the article I shared quoted and referenced that quote, but I will look it up. I will also wish to tell you that Origen of Alexandria who was an important scriptorian and Christian historian from the 2nd century, responded in agreement with a Pagan philosopher that pointed out that the New Testament text had been altered multiple times over and the originals didn't exist anymore. Origen wrote that the New Testament was altered by many to make it agree with their doctrines, and he likewise said that books and verses of the text were essentially removed if it didn't agree with the doctrine they were pushing. Origen still defended the New Testament in the same vein as the Latter-day Saints do. The New Testament is still scripture and full of truth even if aspects of it have been altered or lost forever. I firmly believe the Bible is a most valuable book of scripture and is worth defending even if some of it has either been altered or lost. It's hard to not recognize that parts of it aren't missing when there's so many references to scripture totally missing contained within the Bible text itself. The Bible itself essentially testifies that there's missing scripture within it. Jesus literally references Solomon when he casts an evil spirit from someone in the New Testament text. The question needs to be asked what Biblical text regarding Solomon is Jesus referencing? Because I know of no Biblical text that discusses Solomon having the ability to control evil spirits. Obviously Christ is referencing scripture that's totally missing.
Apparently the link I shared glitched and didn't send earlier. So I'm sharing it now. There's compelling evidence from the 2nd Century that scripture was either altered or removed entirely from the Bible. You may not like fairmormon but you really can't argue with the quotes from early Christian Church fathers and the sources that back them up. The sources and quotes are totally legitimate.
@@matthewkramer9975 I found it! Justin the Martyr wrote the following:
"And I said, I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Esdras made in reference to the law of the passover, they have taken away the following: ‘And Esdras said to the people, This passover is our Saviour and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations.’ And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: ‘I [was] like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter: they devised a device against me, saying, Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered.’ And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: "The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation."
Source: "Dialogue with Trypho" by Justin the Martyr
Hey my brothers from Ward Radio. I’m a member up in Alberta Canada. I was raised Baptist and my first exposer to the church was when I was 9, my Mom rent a movie called the other side of heaven. I loved it, but my family criticized it for being Mormon. Shortly after my church started feeding me anti Mormon propaganda, I started collecting the materials on my own, and as a kid I bought this dvd, “ The Bible VS Joseph Smith.” I probably paid 20 dollars for it, so I know that anti Mormonism is a cash cow for the evangelicals. Anyway this was my go to and I would engage the Missionaries everywhere I would find them.
Years later after reading the Book of Mormon to prove it wrong, I had visions of God telling me this was his church. I soon got the opportunity to help the missionaries with one gentleman who was throwing this film at them. I had the chuckle of telling him I would use this video to challenge the members, and had the opportunity to show him the lies in it. I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are this as well. Keep up the good work.
Awesome story! Thanks for sharing
Wow
So you fell for a lying Deceiving spirit as Apostle Paul wrote" If I we or an angel from heaven come preaching a different Jesus or Gospel Let him be Aacursed" that means damned to Hell
@@BlueskyGladue The Jesus of the Athanasian Creed is a different Jesus from the New Testament Jesus. Though we aren't too concerned about taking it upon ourselves to damn people to hell
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls datin g to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were bro ught by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone chan ged one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
Hugh Nibley said scripture resides not in what we read, but in what we understand.
He could not face the truth of the Book of Abraham...
15:45
the "bible" itself tells us it is missing scripture.
numbers 21:14 - book of the wars of the lord.
joshua 10:13 - book of jasher.
1 kings 11:14 - book of acts of solomon.
1 chronicles 29:29 - book of samuel the seer, book of gad the seer, book of nathan the
prophet.
2 chronicles 9:29 - prophecy of ahijah, visions of iddo the seer.
2 chronicles 12:15 - book of shemaiah.
2 chronicles 20:34 - book of jehu.
2 chronicles 33:19 - sayings of the seers.
1 corinthians 5:9 - earlier epistle before 1 corinthians.
ephesians 3:3 - earlier epistle to the ephesians.
colossians 4:16 - epistle to the church of laodicea.
jude 1:14 - prophecies of enoch mentioned by jude.
God promised to preserve his word in many places of the scriptures.
"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever." -- Psalm 12:6-7 KJV
Those books that you point out are not necessarily scriptures, or are compiled elsewhere.
.. then how do u still use the bible wit the Book of Mormon it don’t work that way u can’t cherry pick what Bible verses u want to fit ur false narrative it’s literally proven Mormonism is false it’s a cult man
@@John3.36 And how are you determining whether those books are scripture or not? By what authority are you doing this?
@@harmonillustration By what authority do you question God's word?
@@John3.36 That made no sense.
You said, "Those books that you point out are not necessarily scriptures" and I'm asking you what authority you have to determine whether or not those books are scripture or not.
Questioning you is not questioning God's word, my guy.
I watched this about a month after joining the church and was able to debunk back then
Hah! That is hilarious
Woot!
@@WARDRADIOthe mormons are nothing but a lying bunch people knee deep in Paganism
you must be great at parties
@@WARDRADIOJoseph Smith is so dumb He was Quoting the Apostles word for word, Joseph Smith was Nephi He Plagiarized the Bible Not 1 Prophet Quote the Apostles
My confirmation bias went crazy in this episode. I watched this video a few months ago, and I was so convinced that this dude wasn't even a member I was telling to my whole family about my suspicions. When I saw this and found out that I'm not the only one with this idea, I felt so validated. Great video, I love these kinds of debunkings.
Yeah I had the same thought when I first saw it, it was so staged
@@clearstonewindows True true. The first thing that got me was when he said that all non latter day saints went to hell... I don't think this man got taught the plan of salvation. Glad you saw similar things.
Amen! Thought the same thing
Please debunk the bad things people believe about Warren Jeffs.
Attack the messenger not the message.
Might be cynical of me to say, but for me, you guys debunking Anti-Mormon content is the most fun stuff you guys produce.
Also thought it was hilarious when Kwaku showed up all of a sudden.
I think it's the catharsis that makes it so entertaining.
When you are so used to taking the bashing and walking away or de-escalating to try and keep the spirit it is very cathartic to have someone call out what you wanted to call out.
@@chyhodgson7726 this exactly.
This is what they started the channel for, way back when it was midnight mormons. Hell even before that with This Is The Show. That's how I found them. TITS was such an aggressive form of apologetics, I was immediately hooked.
Yes! I found this original video when I was alone, and I was shocked that this was a video that was different than other anti info. I loved the channel this came from because he does great archeology info, and was shocked to find such anti Joseph smith/book of Mormon content. I needed this back then. I’m glad I found it.
the fact you guys call it anti-mormon shows your blindsided no its anti mormon!!!!! your guys really are something else
My coworker showed me this video a year ago and I just about died from cringe. That "LDS" dude is an evangelical who sucks at acting. There is no way he's real
You should send this video back to him 😉
I would but Evangelicals don’t care about truth unfortunately🤷🏼♂️😂
Proof?
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses th ere being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins b eing used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footn otes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
BTW, Todd Bolen is, as always, a "Doctor" in the Theological Seminary tradition. Calling him a historical geographer is a bit of a stretch. His M.A. was in "Holy Land Studies", which I have a hard time taking seriously. Instead, if he went somewhere and got a real geography degree it would be "Historical Geography of Southwest Asia". Once again the antis masquerade their divinity/seminary school graduate experts as secular scholars.
Elder McConkie talked about what a miracle it is that we have the Bible and how worthy it is despite some shortcomings.
McConkie was a Bible machine! I strongly suggest all Latter-day Saints to study his three volume New Testament commentary!
We need more McConkies in the church today!
Im glad you guys are going through this. Its the same video someone important to me hoped would break my faith after they left
Yeah, this video made me question my faith a while back, but after researching these things for myself for quite a long time I found that these just are really bad arguments.
Send this to them! 😂
Just prove one part incorrect, the whole n narrative will fall apart. The easiest is to complain about Jerusalem and Bethlehem not being near each other. Then he says it is 6 miles away...oh, so far away. Suburbs are that far and further and still considered the main city if asked where you live. And if you've never been to Bethlehem, you wouldn't use that name, you would use the place you have knowledge of.
At 1:10 the fact that we had more of Genesis than was in tthe Bible was the first thing that really got my wife interested in the Church.
Joseph Smith WROTE HIMSELF INTO THE SCRITPURE
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
If he is a member and did study it out, it would only strengthen his testimony.
Bro. Gifford is probably doing just fine, and probably found out some good answers along the way.
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this do cument from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is alwa ys massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
21:50
it makes perfect sense in english ... when someone asks where you are from you generally say the largest city near where you live.
"i'm from detroit" does not necessarily mean you actually live in the city limits of detroit.
Unless the person you're talking to is familiar with the area, you rarely need to get specific. I used to live in a city of a half million people, but when it's part of the Los Angeles megaplex and you're talking to someone in Seoul Korea, you tend to say Los Angeles.
For Alma, "Jerusalem" is close enough. For the angels telling the shepherds to find the baby in the manger, GPS and turn-by-turn directions are appropriate.
@@JamesWrightLBC
that was my point.
@@lukev483
so, am i.
howdy neighbor.
I tell people all the time that I’m from Salt Lake or the Salt Lake area. Most people outside of Utah aren’t going to know where Layton is.
@@JamesWrightLBC
"For the angels telling the shepherds to find the baby in the manger, GPS and turn-by-turn directions are appropriate."
nope.
not needed, when being led by the spirit.
“Where are the original gold plates?? Only Joseph Smith saw them!”
-person who says there’s thousands of ancient documents backing up the Bible but hasn’t ever seen them
The Lord provided 12 eye witnesses who testified that the plates existed. Angels from heavan testify.
So you say that Joseph was the only one that saw them.?
You lie. You are deceived.
Do some simple research before you spread untruths.
@@michaelee5897 They're...pointing out an ironic logical fallacy?
@@michaelee5897Stop lying on Jesus
they are so lost its incredibly sad
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles an d the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
It's mainly because of the archeology, "friendly" writers, and "hostile" writers mentioned above that the Jesus Seminar, who are PhD level ashiest/agnostics who study Christ and the Bible, concluded that Jesus really lived in Judea 2,000 years ago, was known as a miracle workers, died on the cross under Pilate, and that his disciples really believed they had seen him risen from the dead.
The fact that there are contradictions between manuscripts is often sited as proof against trusting scripture, when it actually does the opposite. The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
There is also all the undisigned coincidence between not only the four Gospels, but the rest of the New and Old Testaments too.
Matthew 2:22 talks about Joseph not wanting to return to Judea after fleeing to Egypt because Archelaus was ruling. That's all the info on that the Bible gives. Josephus, the Jewish historian, tells us about the things Archelaus did and how evil he was. Put these two peices of evidence together, we get the full picture.
This sort of thing happens through the text with the seemingly useless details matching up perfectly with extra Biblical sources, lending to the credibility of the text.
The Apostles willingness to be killed not for saying they believed Jesus had risen, but they knew he had risen, because they saw him.
If the tomb wasn't empty, they would've paraded the body around to stomp out any idea of Jesus being ressurrected, but Christianty spread because there was no body in the tomb.
If someone stole the body, why were nearly all the Apostles willing to be killed for saying they'd seen Jesus risen? They were thousands of miles away from one another before phones and the internet and were being threaten, tortured, and murdered for their claim. Not one "broke" and said it was a lie to save themselves.
It's because of the evidence that I believe in Jesus.
I tell people all the time that I live in Dallas… Even though I live well outside of Dallas. Everybody who lives near a large metro area, does the same thing.
Me too. "I grew up in L.A.". No I didn't. I was born in Van Nuys and lived in Northridge. "I lived in Phoenix for 24 years". Actually, I lived in PHX for only 3 years, the rest in Scottsdale, Tempe and Mesa.
Especially if you are trying to explain it to someone on another continent. The town my family lived in when i was on my mission in Argentina was at least an hour drive away from the Houston metro. I still said I was from Houston.
@@lukev483 same
Yep!! I say “Modesto” or “Stockton” for the same reason!!
Not taking the time to explain to someone that you are from a suburb of a large city, versus the actual city is quite different from explaining in writing where Jesus was born.
Great discussion, guys! After 20 years of arguing with people online about the Church and getting nowhere (except making myself crazy), I have found that the main issue with Christians is that they think I am trying to "lure them away from the Bible". I keep telling them that I am trying to HELP them, that the Book of Mormon and the LDS Church brings you CLOSER to Jesus Christ and the Bible. But they just can't see it. They won't even give it a chance. They are so indoctrinated with "there is only the Bible" that trying to explain things to them is fruitless.
I guess my hangup is I don't see the fruit from the BOM that I know has been produced by the Holy Bible.
Edit: I'm not saying the LDS believers don't have any good fruit. I'm saying that unless you are familiar with the best fruit the Bible has produced, the BOM fruit might look impressive to you.
At Jerusalem is BIBLICAL !!! Alma 7 vs 10 ) "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."
2 Kings 14 vs 20 ) "And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David."
Luke 2 vs 4 ) "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judæa, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)"
@@truthbebold4009Wow..you are not being intellectually honest if you can't see what good the LDS church has done since Joseph Smith. Even many people who don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet can see the wonderful families and realize the wonderful accomplishments. I hope you dig a little deeper on your own.
@@lukev483The Bible is a fictional book.
@@dwRS1 So you basically identified the problem I have with the LDS. To the LDS mindset, good deeds, charity, relatively kind people, familial ties, etc are the good fruit that the BOM and LDS beliefs produce. These are much needed fruit in this corrupt society but that's kinda the bare minimum that we should see for all believers in Christ Jesus. I'm talking about real fruit. What I mean is watch The Insanity of God or look into the life of Desmond Doss. Don't just compare modern LDS with modern Western Christians. Explore what it really means to live for God and live by faith. Challenge yourself. Don't settle for a mediocre spiritual experience.
The Bible also says that Bethlehem is "at" Jerusalem and I'll prove it. Anti-Mormons need to know that the Bible makes the same so-called blunder as the Book of Mormon. Read the following verses.
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." -Luke 2:11
"And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David." -2nd Kings 14:20
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." -Alma 7:10
The hilarious thing about this is the fact that 2nd Kings 14:20 and Alma 7:10 both use the same verbiage to inform us that Bethlehem (the City of David) is "at" Jerusalem. Honestly this is a Biblical slam dunk for the Book of Mormon's scriptural authenticity, and every member should remember Luke 2:11 and 2nd Kings 14:20. I think 2nd Kings 14:20 should be memorized just for the purposes of responding to these clowns claiming that Latter-day Saints believe that Christ was born in Jerusalem. Of course that isn't true, but let's start using the Bible against them. Every single time I've shown Luke 2:10 and 2nd Kings 14:20 to Anti-Mormons it shuts their entire argument. They can't respond to it. Then show them a websters dictionary and explain to them that neither the Bible or Book of Mormon made a fatal blunder because the dictionary says that word "at" in this context means "near."
Trust me, 2nd Kings 14:20 crushes their argument every single time. True Story!!!
The following is a Biblical reference to the Land of Jerusalem which reads, "While Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and all his army and all the kingdoms and peoples in the empire he ruled were fighting against Jerusalem and all its surrounding towns, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD." - Jeremiah 34:1
"Jerusalem and all of its surrounding towns???" This is a total slam dunk in favor of the Book of Mormon.
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
“Lehi 'dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days' (1 Nephi 1:4), yet his sons had to 'go down to the land of our father's inheritance' to pick up their property (1 Nephi 3:16, 22). The apparent anomaly is readily explained by the Amarna Letters, in which we read that 'a city of the land of Jerusalem, Bet-Ninib, has been captured!' It was the rule in Palestine and Syria from ancient times ... for a large area around a city and all the inhabitants of that area to bear the name of the city.... But this was quite unknown at the time the Book of Mormon was written" (Nibley, Approach to the Book of Mormon, 101-2).
The Bible also says that Bethlehem is "at" Jerusalem and I'll prove it. Anti-Mormons need to know that the Bible makes the same so-called blunder as the Book of Mormon. Read the following verses.
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." -Luke 2:11
"And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David." -2nd Kings 14:20
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." -Alma 7:10
The hilarious thing about this is the fact that 2nd Kings 14:20 and Alma 7:10 both use the same verbiage to inform us that Bethlehem (the City of David) is "at" Jerusalem. Honestly this is a Biblical slam dunk for the Book of Mormon's scriptural authenticity, and every member should remember Luke 2:11 and 2nd Kings 14:20. I think 2nd Kings 14:20 should be memorized just for the purposes of responding to these clowns claiming that Latter-day Saints believe that Christ was born in Jerusalem. Of course that isn't true, but let's start using the Bible against them. Every single time I've shown Luke 2:10 and 2nd Kings 14:20 to Anti-Mormons it shuts down their entire argument. They can't respond to it. Then show them a websters dictionary and explain to them that neither the Bible or Book of Mormon made a fatal blunder because the dictionary says that word "at" in this context means "near."
Trust me, 2nd Kings 14:20 crushes their argument every single time. True Story!!!
@@benjamingregersen9777You Mormons are just Wrong learn your Bible Jesus was born in ( Bethlehem) Let's prove Alma 7:10 Wrong, Matthew 2:1-8, Luke 2:1-7 Stop Teaching lies
@@benjamingregersen9777That's totally false
@@james8996 accept that it's not false. The following is a Biblical reference to the Land of Jerusalem which reads, "While Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and all his army and all the kingdoms and peoples in the empire he ruled were fighting against Jerusalem and all its surrounding towns, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD." - Jeremiah 34:1
"Jerusalem and all of its surrounding towns???" This is a total slam dunk in favor of the Book of Mormon.
On the subject of being at Jerusalem, check out 2 Kings 14:20. It also refers to the city of David as being at Jerusalem.
That's a cool thought but unfortunately in all instances except Luke 2 "The city of David" refers to Jerusalem.
@netherquartz8946 I disagree with you on that. The reason Bethlehem is called the City of David is because Bethlehem is in the Land of Jerusalem, which has been proven by archeology time and time again. The reason that the City of David, which is Bethlehem, is "at" Jerusalem and not "in" Jerusalem is because the Webster's dictionary literally informs us that the word "at" means nearby. So, the City of David is "near" Jerusalem and not in Jerusalem. So, the City of David obviously cannot be Jerusalem if it's "near" Jerusalem, and not "in" Jerusalem. Anyone who thinks that a city can be "near" itself doesn't understand the meaning of words and is therefore a complete idiot for not knowing how to properly use words. Bethlehem is obviously the City of David, which is "at" Jerusalem. 2nd Kings 14:20 is a slam dunk for the Book of Mormon. True Story!!!
@@benjamingregersen9777 You can disagree with me all you want but unfortunately I am correct.
Just search online "City of David" and you will find that I am correct and everywhere except Luke 2 that means Jerusalem.
Here is a portion of a website.
"When did Bethlehem become the “city of David”?
That title had always been given to Jerusalem. Forty times in the Old Testament, Jerusalem is referred to as the city of David, and no other city in the Bible is ever called by that name. Until Luke’s gospel."
I agree about Alma saying Christ will be born at Jersualem means the land of Jersualem. I'm just trying to help point out errors members are making so they don't look like idiots. The city of David in the bible refers to the city of Jerusalem except in Luke where it means Bethlehem.
I agree with you. 2nd Kings 14:20 essentially says the same thing as the Book of Mormon. They both say "at" Jerusalem in the context of being "nearby" Jerusalem.
@@benjamingregersen9777 Yeah. What Jonah said about "at" being understood that way by ancient Hebrew speakers is spot on.
I still can't buy he's an actual member. He gives it up so easy and gives them every answer they want as if he is reading their script. Maybe he's still on church records who has been inactive since his youth and just doesn't care.
Or, he wasn't prepared for the situation. He is probably a regular guy who grew up in the church and didn't have a lot of exposure to contrary points of view.
Luke 24:32 New King James Version (NKJV)
And they said to one another, “Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?”
This is what LDS people are referring to when speaking of the witness of the Holy Ghost testifying of truth with a burning in the bosom.
These guys who claim to "know the Bible", most of them spend all day reading John and the writings of Paul. Start talking about anything else and they become mediocre "Bible believers" really fast.
Yeah, they skip or don't read all the other stuff in there that's identical to the bom and even more crazy.
You too may want to brush up on your Bible, Big Guy.@@SHREKfiona1234
How do you know what other people read or don't? That's like them saying you've never read the Bible. The Christian church I frequented in England read and taught from Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah, Matthew, Peter, Revelation. U should try reading the Bible for once (ouch! U see?). Quit the you/us v them mentality.
What's identical? Like the Isaiah and Malachi passages. The Matthew passages? @@SHREKfiona1234
@@anthonyrippa686 Because I went on a mission and have chatted with many 'Bible believers' on the Internet and in real life. If it's not from Paul or in the Book of John they have no idea what they are talking about and usually look really dumb when they say things like, "Show me in the Bible where God speaks to man like He did to Joseph Smith!" Then I pull out like six examples and their face becomes dull like the face of a mannequin.
I've probably watched 40+ videos from you guys and this is my favorite yet. I love the quote about why would a con man put at Jerusalem when he knows he was born in Bethlehem. I said that today about the story of Nephi and Laban. Why would he put something so difficult for so many people as the spirit telling a prophet to kill Laban if he was trying to trick them. He wouldn't he would've written about peace and rainbows and unicorns.
Yes!
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accur acy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
@trentitybrehm5105 wow seems like you've really done your homework. Good job. I guess I'll just believe you over the witness I received from the Holy spirit that testified to me the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.
I’m convinced he’s an actor. It was staged. They’re liars for pretending that he’s your average member or active at all. His body language, eye contact, answers, the sighs, the support of the narrative, nothing adds up.
I agree.
I also agree.@@angelalewis3645
Whether he was a Mormon or not doesn't change the fact that Joseph Smith's "inspired" version of the Isaiah does not match the Isaiah scroll. Shouldn't you be looking into this and following Deuteronomy 18 if you really love God?
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those dis ciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
I have been saying for years, that if a “debunker” went head to head with our prophet, or any general authority, rather than a random member, that any argument used would be torn to pieces in seconds, but these debunkers never go head to head with a general authority, or anyone actually knowledgable, they stand outside a ward or the conference center and engage a random person, who by the way, is attending these buildings to learn and be taught…
Funny how that works…
They are not scared to debate ..no way, Prophet or Apostles would do that. Also I've watched will my own eyes. They say if we're wrong you still have no right to say it. Hahaha very funny.
Cardon, you have mentioned a few times that you have a “list when dealing with anti-Mormons” can you show us that list? Post it somewhere?
Knowing he is an active member shows how important this channel is. Sunday School has become a dairy meaning that all we get is milk. You guys are the butcher shop giving us the meat we need. Keep it going!!!
I have felt that for years. I found the priesthood manual from 1957 at my grandparents house and it was written by Hugh Nibley. Now we have gospel doctrine lessons from the same manual as primary.
I've had the thought that, perhaps, since the meat of the Gospel is not as immediately accessible as the milk is, that we engage in active Faith in searching it out in this day-and-age of access. "He who has ears, let him hear" of old has become "He who has the mind to, search for it" (or something like that, I'm not very creative).
The guy who is supposed to be a lifelong member isn't too bright or he is not a lifelong member. You choose.
I love how they keep saying, "They found a complete copy of Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls." I have seen that "complete" Isaiah scroll. It could pass for Swiss cheese. If it was made of a stronger material you could use it to catch fish or butterflies. And I have seen nothing addressing whether the text in our current book of Isaiah perfectly fits the gaps caused by those holes. And of course they didn't mention the other Isaiah scrolls, that even though they are less complete, they have enough to show at least three other variations of Isaiah, two of which have that verse that says "And all the ships of Tarshish, and all the ships of the sea." Exactly like the version of that verse of Isaiah in The Book Of Mormon. It's clear these guys cherry pick things that supports their ideas, and ignores everything that cannot support or completely contradicts their ideas. And of course the reverse is true for anything that supports The Book Of Mormon, for the evidence that's weaker, they exaggerate how weak, and if the evidence is too strong, they either act like it's weak by using old data, or they ignore it and hope nobody notices. Yet in all these they are lying, because their father is the father of lies.
Exactly! The proof is in all the evidence of extracelestial beings visiting us everyday!
@@JIKOKALOL I'm not sure if it was Joseph Smith Jr. or one of the other Prophets who said that no being who didn't belong to this world would be able to visit it. No resurrected person or spirits from the other worlds without number. So you only have the fallen angels pretending to be people who died or other things, and messenger angels of the righteous who have already lived, are living now or will live on this world in the future.
OK Swiss cheese!! More lies to protect the Church.
These hardened evangelicals just don't have joy in their eyes. Joel, Paul Trask, Jeff Durbin, Hello Saints guy, Mike Winger, etc. They all have the same hollow joyless eyes and voices.
@@lukev483I'm not surprised you are wondering
Anti debunking are my FAVORITE episodes 👌😅🥳. Great job guys. I attended a meeting yesterday where I'm hoping I sent many more subs your way
@lukev483 I'm going to decide you're not as bad as you think you are or wish to be😇. You're probably a super nice guy that's putting on a tough guy act😇.
You just don't seem like the anti mormon I usually know or talk to. You don't have a mean enough tone😊.
The Jerusalem/bethlehem argument is probably the dumbest argument we get.
I'd argue 200 pound plates is up there
That's a fair point. I think its more fun to argue though haha@@lukehanson_
but they weren't 200lbs... I'm sure you know that, but it's a moot argument.@@lukehanson_
@@kz6fittycent yes, but people still make the argument, and it's funny
@@lukehanson_ Yeah, all this stuff gets recycled yet presented as new.
That anti video was super cringe. Great job debunking, not that it was a hard one to debunk 😂. But good episode.
Glad you enjoyed it
@@WARDRADIOYou have to have knowledge of the Bible to Disprove the lies the fake As Mormon church try to come with, First that Lehi Story is Bullshit that's right bullshit, ( GOD never told Any Israelites to flee to America who's telling that lie the Mormons
Anti's. Please don't drink the water downstream from your own Horses and think your drinking Pure water . go to OUR sources /web🎉 sites/apps uncontaminated by your horses.
Anti's are aflame with indignation and studied art. They pour out the sour vinegar of invective and anger. Surely this is the age of the gifted Pickle Sucker.
Anti's have Contempt prior to serious and fair Investigations. Nothing superficial.
Now that we have finish the episode.. my teens watched with me and they laughed so hard👍🤣🤣.
You guys were all hilarious!! Jonah had my son on the floor laughing when he did that Jesus bit🤣🤣. We rewatched that line about five times just to hear my son laugh that much🤣👍. Great episode!! You keep getting better
😂
Why didn't Nephi say the longitude and latitude coordinates of Bethlehem, instead of saying Jerusalem? 10000+ miles away.
Exactly!!!
@@TheArkisSteadyNephi is Joseph Smith and Anybody with Brian Can prove that
It is a great documentary and helped a lot of mormons see the truth. I mean most don't even know about Joseph Smith's translation of the Bible let alone have a copy of it. Most don't know about all of Joseph Smith's prophecies. I think that the Mormon Church should be honest about everything about their Prophet.
I commented on this anti- Joseph Smith video a while back, which is something I rarely do, because I don't want to argue with idiots and get into a contentious back and forth. But this was so ridiculous. I decided to comment and bare my strong testimony of the Prophet Joseph.
I am a convert of about 20 years to the Church. I served a mission and am active in the Church today. Prior to joining the Church I was very involved in anti-Mormonism and was associated with a Church that strongly pushed the anti-Mormon rhetoric. My comment on this apparent situation is this: if this man’s faith in the Restored Gospel is that easily shaken by the things the well-prepared anti-Mormon preacher presented, then his faith in the Bible and mainstream Christianity would be just as easily shaken by arguments made by a well-prepared atheist. Faith based in facts and archaeological evidence is one built on a foundation of sand. My faith in Christ and in His restored gospel, although supplemented by those things, is based on the personal witnesses I have received from the Holy Ghost. No archaeologist or theologian can touch that part of my testimony with their “facts”.
And shame on Evangelical preachers who, rather than build on the faith of others, seek to destroy and replace their faith.
My
Dude i know I gonna get hate for this, but I actually went on a quest to find the errors of the Bible and see if there was any way to fix them by the spirit or other manuscripts. My quest in the New Testament alone took me several directions and over a year so far. From working with the JST and discovering Brother Joseph's methods with the Lord, to researching the Critical Text variants, fragments, ancient papyri that have been translated, looking through Multiple Greek Lexicons to discover deeper nuances in the text that the KJV translators didn't touch upon, and even discovering work that had been done on old Hebrew and Aramaic copies of the New Testament like detullet & munster, the old Syriac, and the peshitta that I found a nazarene rabbi explaining about. And in my research of those, i found things that corrected portions of the greek texts that have come down to us as well. I also looked at archaic words in the KJV that an evangelical pastor calls "false friends" because they no longer mean what they meant in 1611. There was also the perusal of the Geneva Bible and discovering some of the good translator connections it contains that contribute to understanding the text, and I had to meditate upon and search over 50 English translations in some verses to get what the actual meaning was. I'm now in the end stages, and I can say that looking at English Bibles that came before it, and modern Bibles based on the critical text rather than the received text, that the KJV still feels like one of the best that is being offered even with the dozens of errors it contains. The base Christian community fights like cats and dogs on the best translations and the war between the recieved text and the Critical Text continues unfortunately. I'm so glad that our church doesn't really deal with that cause we have prophetic excerpts and additional scriptures that clarify many important matters. Overall I feel my quest was productive. Can't wait till I get to the Old Testament.
There's a Sister over at Scripture Central that helps draw additional understanding from various other translations of the Bible that aids in understanding Gospel Principles. Other translations can help, but I'm also very grateful of the KJV.
You mentioned his name.... I would love to see you guys get Brother Bart Erhman on the show talking about textual criticism. I think y'all would have a good time.
Fragile faith begins with Sola Scriptura....
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have cop ies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remains, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
They called him a “generational Mormon”
Gentlemen, we love the show! Maybe work on using some 30+ year technology, and level the broadcast volume so all mics and audio are broadcast level for the listeners? Some of your audio is so soft, we need to turn the volume way up to hear it, then others are so loud we have to turn the volume back down. It's a real pain in the kiester, not to mention the ears while wearing headphones. We're not going to name names, but someone needs to run the mixing board better. Repent bro C. 😉😉
I think "Christians" should start working out the BIble first, because the Bible alone offers enough material to have a criticle look at, and in the process I am sure the one or the other would become more humble about criticizing Joseph Smith...
The world can thank the Roman Catholic Church for the Bible . Council of Rome 382 under Pope Damasus 1, first time we had a full Bible that included the Old Testament and the newly recognized 27 books of the New Testament that every Protestant has in their Bible today. Ask your self why you believe your Bible as constructed today is true, it’s because the Roman Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit with the authority given to her by Jesus Christ deemed it to be so. As much as it might pain all Protestants including Mormons, this is a fact of history that simply cannot be denied. Have. Great day.
14:49 “without the sacrifice of millions” is portrayed in a video about the Waldensians. Hannah Stoddard just did a great presentation on this topic. When you know the sacrifices required to put any scriptures in our hands you can’t ignore the miracles.
Guys i thought he was an actor too. But i get where he is coming from. For fifty three years of my fifty five years of being a member, i didnt know really that much of the church and or its history or the scriptures. But i was about to leave the church and prayed to the lord to show me please where i can fi d answers and ot show me its not true. That same day! I started getting answer to my questions . And my faith has i creased so much. I know that this is the true church of our lord jesus Christ. I thankful to the lotd.
The guy in the Mets hat is so ignorant. Strawman after strawman. I don't think he said anything true. Also, good job cutting out the parts that explain the historicity of ancient texts. You guys are full of ignorance. I cant say I'm surprised though. Maybe one day you'll acknowledge the actual arguments presented and wont just spout lies. Try some critical thinking for once guys.
Great stuff, guys! Long time watcher, first-time commentor. Just a note for Jonah. Russian is an Indo-European language and "at Jerusalem..." was translated in early, Russian versions of the Book of Mormon as "в Иерусалеме..." which would more closely mean in English, "in Jerusalem." Not completely certain, but I believe it was changed to "на" for a time, which I felt was the most accurate for "at..." But it is currently "в земле Уерусалма..." which is, "in the land of Jerusalem...."
The bottom line though, we don't need a separate foreign language to know that the English "at" that Joseph Smith was inspired to use in this context is akin to the way we use "at" for broadly defined areas, like "at an airport," or "at home," or "at a beach," (not that it's incorrect to use "on" or "in" for those locations). But when using "at" for referencing a specific placename, it would infer that it is in the vicinity of that name, just like Bethlehem is in the vicinity of Jerusalem. Everyone can agree on that, right?
This anti interviewer uses the same "in Bethlehem" vs "at Jerusalem" argument to justify his own research regarding Abraham's alter in his video on Mamre where he quotes Genesis 13:18 (not sure what version) as saying "in Mamre at Hebron" as meaning the land of Hebron.
Brad, Wondering a bit about what you said in the opener: "God cannot lie. We can misunderstand what he says" Just started the video so I'll find out if there's some context to that in a bit but I've definitely heard that same sentiment said in many ways many times.
My question is how do we know something like this? Could we be misunderstanding that he ever claimed he can't lie?
I enjoy watching you all debunk Anti-Mormon thinking. Especially the way they present their arguments.
A side note...I find it a bit irritating to watch the screen suddenly jump to the full page add to contribute to Ward Radio via VENMO , which totally covers up a reaction or comment by someone that I want to see, but can't. It comes up WAY too often. Why can't it be smaller and in a corner so it doesn't cover up what I am viewing. I'll see it, smaller and in a corner. Please modify that add from FULL screen to something smaller. thanks ;o)
Have you guys explored the podcast “the Bible and beyond”? It’s so wonderful to find a non Lds Christian group accepting scripture outside of Bible cannon and making a case for it.
I will say that St. Nick punching arius happened during the council of nicea, which didn't discuss the biblical canon. It was affirmed by the Council of Rome, the Synod of Hippo, two of the Councils of Carthage, the Council of Florence, and finally, as an article of faith, by the Council of Trent. But it doesn't really matter tho
Yeah. Its a mess
21:23 - the very first page of the BOM even differentiates between Jerusalem the land and Jerusalem the city.
(Looking at you 1 Ne 1:4, 7.)
The Bible also says that Bethlehem is "at" Jerusalem and I'll prove it. Anti-Mormons need to know that the Bible makes the same so-called blunder as the Book of Mormon. Read the following verses.
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." -Luke 2:11
"And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David." -2nd Kings 14:20
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." -Alma 7:10
The hilarious thing about this is the fact that 2nd Kings 14:20 and Alma 7:10 both use the same verbiage to inform us that Bethlehem (the City of David) is "at" Jerusalem. Honestly this is a Biblical slam dunk for the Book of Mormon's scriptural authenticity, and every member should remember Luke 2:11 and 2nd Kings 14:20. I think 2nd Kings 14:20 should be memorized just for the purposes of responding to these clowns claiming that Latter-day Saints believe that Christ was born in Jerusalem. Of course that isn't true, but let's start using the Bible against them. Every single time I've shown Luke 2:10 and 2nd Kings 14:20 to Anti-Mormons it shuts their entire argument. They can't respond to it. Then show them a websters dictionary and explain to them that neither the Bible or Book of Mormon made a fatal blunder because the dictionary says that word "at" in this context means "near."
Trust me, 2nd Kings 14:20 crushes their argument every single time. True Story!!!
@@benjamingregersen9777 I used that argument on my mission, but it’s not as big of a slam dunk as you think. Jerusalem (the city) was also called the city of David, so there is some interpretation as to whether this is Jerusalem the city or Bethlehem the city.
But sticking with the actual text of the BOM, it very clearly separates the city of Jerusalem from the land, and it is highly consistent with other land areas such as the city of nephi/land of nephi, city of Zarahemla: land of z, city of bountiful/ land of bountiful etc. add this to the Dead Sea scrolls, and that’s where you get your slam dunk.
The biblical argument you shared sounds good, but it has some holes in it.
Ultimately we agree - BOM is correct.
@Heartsinmelody I ultimately agree with what you said about the land of Jerusalem in the Book of Mormon and the dead sea scrolls, but what if I told you that the land of Jerusalem is also evident in the Bible. The Bible says it even though those specific words aren't used. For example, take a look at this Jeremiah verse, which reads, "While Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and all his army and all the kingdoms and peoples in the empire he ruled were fighting against Jerusalem and all its surrounding towns, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD." -Jeremiah 34:1
This verse literally says that Babylon attacked Jerusalem and all of Jerusalem's surrounding towns. It sure seems evident that the Bible indicates that there was a land of Jerusalem after reading this verse and others. I will get to 2nd Kings 14:20 when I find more time. I do disagree with you on that verse because it clearly indicates that the City of David it describes is "near" Jerusalem rather than actually being Jerusalem. It also makes zero sense for the writer to write two different names for the same place in one verse. I believe that it's quite obvious that the verse is describing a city of David that's separate from Jerusalem. It's near Jerusalem, not in Jerusalem. It's dumb to conclude that the writer of 2nd Kings is telling us that the city of David is near itself. Just think about how ridiculous that sounds. Anyone who thinks that the City of David referred to in 2nd Kings is the same exact place as the City of Jerusalem clearly needs to relearn how to properly use words. You were correct on your mission, buddy.
@@benjamingregersen9777 2 kings city of David is Jerusalem the city . The Luke 2 verse refers to where David’s ancestors were from, not the city of David (Jerusalem) which was his political capital city. It also says ‘at Jerusalem’ - not near, and doesn’t the refer to it as ‘the land’ of Jerusalem in this instance.
It’s clear from other text though that Alma 7:10 is historically correct, and if JS was just making it up he would have surely put Bethlehem instead of ‘At Jerusalem, which is the land of….’
Looking a Nephi chapter 1 and 3, we see lehi dwelt at Jerusalem, yet he clearly didn’t live in the city of Jerusalem as when they went back to get the gold to buy the plates of brass they went back down away from the city Jerusalem to whereever their house was (yet still in the land of Jerusalem).
BOM is entirely consistent on this, and anyone that brings up Alma 7:10 as an issue for the BOM is simply ignorant, a poor scholar, or dishonest.
@Heartsinmelody Wrong, but I will get to that in a second. First I just want to let you know that I agree with you that whoever raises this as an issue against the Book of Mormon is dishonest, however I completely disagree with your assertion that the City of David in 2nd Kings is the city of Jerusalem because it contradicts Jewish history as recorded in the Bible, and it just makes zero sense, especially when you consider that the land of Jerusalem has already been created at this point because Jeroboam divided the Kingdom into two kingdoms which made "the land of Jerusalem" a thing. Jeruboam wanted all the nearby little towns and cities to be connected to Jerusalem even though it was no longer the capital city of Israel at this point, and thus, the land of Jerusalem was born, also known as judia by the way. It is interesting that Joseph and Mary entered Judea when they arrived at Bethlehem. Judea is the land of Jerusalem, and the Bible establishes that Bethlehem was in Judea. Again, that's just more evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon. The City of David in 2nd Kings is Bethlehem because Bethlehem was called that after Jerusalem lost its status as the capital city of Israel. I will die on that hill because I know that's the truth. Jerusalem was no longer the capital city in 2nd Kings, and Reoboam changed everything by dividing the Kingdom of Israel. Thus, the land of Jerusalem was born. This is Biblical fact, by the way. True story!!!
At Jerusalem is BIBLICAL !!! Alma 7 vs 10 ) "And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God."
2 Kings 14 vs 20 ) "And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David."
Luke 2 vs 4 ) "And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judæa, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)"
Cool thought but unfortunately it's not correct. The city of David refers to Jerusalem everywhere except Luke 2 when it is used to refer to Bethlehem.
@@netherquartz8946 You either believe the Bible or you don't... Evidence is clear that in all three books... the place is the same . You are free to stick your head back in the sand now. thanks.
@@niroms8199 No, I know this because my head isn't in the sand. What's funny is based on your comment you assumed I am someone who I am not. I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints. I was intrigued by your comment and thought that's cool. But with a quick search on Google and finding a few reliable websites on this topic it was clear that in Kings the city of David is referring to Jerusalem and in Luke the city of David is referring to Bethlehem.
I totally agree that Alma is referring to the land around Jerusalem as all them Nephites at least remember Nephi came from Jerusalem. If Alma said specifically Bethlem they would be like huh? And Alma would then have to clarify, it's a little place near Jerusalem.
Kwaku outta no where 😂
Loving the new intro and all the new music.
When saying God wants us to grapple with these things and still choose him it makes me think of "through mists of darkness we MUST go." It really is part of the plan that we individual work through the murkiness towards the light.
1 Nephi 13:40 - “These last records, which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb”
This is why the Book of Mormon is so important! It ESTABLISHES the truth of the Bible! It becomes the measuring stick with which we measure truth from a book with such a complicated history.
MY REQUESTED VIDEO!!! Thank you ward radio!
The discussion of "at Jerusalem" reminds me of the principle of simplicity, then complexity, then simplicity through complexity
The guys at Church History Matters say this all the time - are you quoting them? If so, say so! They deserve all the listeners they can get! They're awesome!
The fact that at 34:14 they again compare Joseph smith to Jesus Christ is shocking .
This questioner is soiling my name. It's hard to hear y'all speak the name of "Joel" with such distaste - haha. I love how you guys approach this. As a young missionary who knew nothing going out and would have likely reacted similarly early on in my mission; but not anymore though. Thankfully, my post-mission study has shown me the major problems with evangelicals attacks. Even with the exmo attacks I have learned so much about the enemies who choose to ignore and misrepresent.
I've seen this video actually. It was so weird to watch someone say "I've never thought about that, I guess I quit my faith". I think it was actually a setup or fake....but yeah so weird. Also, with the testing of prophet stuff, it's like just a tear down of any leader including the pope. UGGGGH I almost dont want to watch this video again...
Listen to the talk “A Profile of a Prophet” by Hugh B Brown. It’s silly to say “Joseph Smith Jr ‘failed’ the prophet test.”
Great job guys! Love the debunking videos.
Although Joel Kramer is in the dark about Mormonism, he does some good work in other areas, such as showing historical evidence of the events spoken of in the Bible. If he could be enlightened about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, I think he could be an amazing warrior for the LDS Church, so to speak.
Well there is a reason he is so knowledgeable about the bible and rejects mormonism.... because it is not the word of God
If this guys an active member, then my name is Brad Whitbeck
A couple of points about Alma 7 and "at Jerusalem". The other night my wife got irked with another RUclipsr who kept talking about a "Denver" restaurant he was at, that was actually 40+ miles outside of Denver. The guy wasn't from Colorado and probably thought of everything Denver as long as he could Uber from the airport hotel. The other point: Neph made clear that he went out of his way to not teach his people "the things of the Jews" so the people likely had a subset of the scriptures. The only city from the old world the Nephites likely were taught about was Jerusalem - the one they left before it was destroyed. Just ask the people of Zarahemla. They're never going back so why bother teaching old world geography?
Good points.
The Bible also says that Bethlehem is "at" Jerusalem and I'll prove it. Anti-Mormons need to know that the Bible makes the same so-called blunder as the Book of Mormon. Read the following verses.
"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." -Luke 2:11
"And they brought him on horses: and he was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David." -2nd Kings 14:20
"And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God." -Alma 7:10
The hilarious thing about this is the fact that 2nd Kings 14:20 and Alma 7:10 both use the same verbiage to inform us that Bethlehem (the City of David) is "at" Jerusalem. Honestly this is a Biblical slam dunk for the Book of Mormon's scriptural authenticity, and every member should remember Luke 2:11 and 2nd Kings 14:20. I think 2nd Kings 14:20 should be memorized just for the purposes of responding to these clowns claiming that Latter-day Saints believe that Christ was born in Jerusalem. Of course that isn't true, but let's start using the Bible against them. Every single time I've shown Luke 2:10 and 2nd Kings 14:20 to Anti-Mormons it shuts their entire argument. They can't respond to it. Then show them a websters dictionary and explain to them that neither the Bible or Book of Mormon made a fatal blunder because the dictionary says that word "at" in this context means "near."
Trust me, 2nd Kings 14:20 crushes their argument every single time. True Story!!!
@42:20 Unfortunately this is how strip mall evangelicals are taught the conversation will go if they have an opportunity to teach Mormons "the truth"
P.S. Your comparison of this "minister" to an abusive COP, is an insult to abusive COPs.... lol😂😅😂😅😂
Joseph Smith LITERALLY made baseless changes to the KJV Bible.
The original books... You're kidding right? Who would even be able to verify that one book or another were the "original." There are hundreds of manuscripts from the time shortly after Jesus that we know of. How many ancient manuscripts exist of what John Smith, supposedly, translated? Can you find at least one?
I recommend everyone watch the original documentary. These guys are liars and deceivers.
I remember getting cornered when I was 11 years old at a 1st Baptist church by two old church ladies. Man that was messed up.
Let me see if im hearing you correctly.... you said you've read, prayed and tested. Isn't that the same things you would hear from a Muslim, Hindu or JW.? Those things within themselves do not establish truth. Bad argument
21:42 do these guys not realize no latter day saint ever argues that Jesus was born in Jerusalem? When has an LDS missionary ever said "actually according to the Book of Mormon Jesus was born in Jerusalem. The new testament got that wrong!" Never! None of us have ever made that argument! That's what Muslims do when they refer to the Quran compared to bible!
The Lamanites had a city named Jerusalem. So Alma would have distinguished by saying the land of their forefathers 🤦🏻♂️.
These videos are why I am here. I appreciate y'all.
52:00 when you hire an aspiring actor through Craigslist to play a member of the church 😂
Joseph's prophecy about a temple in Missouri still holds up if you look at how people of his time defined the word "generation." From Webster's 1828 dictionary:
1. Production; formation; as the generation of sounds or of curves or equations.
2. A single succession in natural descent, as the children of the same parents; hence, an age. Thus we say, the third, the fourth, or the tenth generation. Genesis 15:16.
3. The people of the same period, or living at the same time. "O faithless and perverse generation." Luke 9:41.
4. Genealogy; a series of children or descendants from the same stock. "This is the book of the generations of Adam." Genesis 5:1.
5. A family; a race.
6. Progeny; offspring.
Look at definitions 5 and 6. As long as the Latter-day Saints retain their identity as such, the prophecy hasn't failed.
@17:05 A friend and I were just having this discussion this past week about how the Book Of Mormon says that plain and precious truths were lost...but then also refers to _elements of God's covenant_ that were lost. There are very few people today outside the LDS faith - who believe the Bible - that think in terms of covenant membership, covenant blessings, covenant responsibilities, and covenant promises (eternal marriage, exaltation, temple worship, etc)
No one thinks this way because they have been conditioned not to accept anything they aren't already familiar with...thereby limiting their own utility in the Lord's service.
The rest of this guy’s stuff is 🔥🔥🔥. It’s unfortunate that he decided to pick a fight with us.
I think he’s an actor.
Completely agree, the interviewee is either a paid actor or is poorly grounded in his faith.
In Alma 7:10 (the Book of Mormon), they say Jesus would be born in Jerusalem.
Micha 5:2 (from the Old Testament) Messiah is prophecied to be born in Bethlehem. We have copies of this document from the Dead Sea Scrolls dating to a century or two before Christ.
Bethlehem is a different city than Jerusalem. Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:1)
1 Nephi 18:25, 2 Nephi 12:7, Mosiah 9:9, and Ether 9:19 discribes plants and animals being in the Americas that we know were no here until they were brought by colonizers.
1 Nephi 19, 1 Nephi 18:25 discusses there being metal working like swords, armor, and coins when there is no evidence anywhere in the Americas of any metal work being done or ever found.
Alma 11 talks about metal coins being used as currency when there are no metal coins to be found anywhere in the Americas until colonialism.
Mormon 8:2 and Ether 15 discuss battles with hundreds of thousands to millions of people, using armor and metals, with chariots, and there is no evidence of any such battles taking place. Even with small battles, there is always massive amounts of evidence that it happened from human remain s, armor, arrowheads, swords, ect. and we find none of that for these battles.
Jesus created Lucifer and all things that are created. John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16-17
Isaiah 43:10
“You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
Isaiah 44:6
“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
Proverbs 28:26
He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.
Jeramiah 17:9
“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
We have the writing of the disciples of the Apostles and the disciples of those disciples, and they not only quote much of the New Testament, but all the core idea of Christianty are present. Jesus being God, the Son of God, dying for sins, burial, resurrection, ascension to heaven.
We also have writing of Jewish and Pagan contemporary historians who were hostile towards Jesus, who say the same things : Jesus being worshipped as God, the Son of God, dying for on the cross, burial, resurrection.
The archeology matches the Bible perfectly all the way from Genesis through the New Testament.
The fact that there are so many manuscripts makes it easy to tell when someone changed one, and modern Bibles are transparent about any differences in the footnotes. Over 5,000 manuscripts in the original Greek and 20,000 in other lanuages. None of those differences found between manuscripts change anything about any core doctrines of Christianity, they are mainly a handwriting error on a letter or a different way to word something that means the same thing. There is 99.5% accuracy between the manuscripts according to scholars.
The Book of Mormon has none of this.
I heard some bros dusheing out saying.. 'well probably this and probably that and o what an idiot'. Thanks alot for showing your fruit gentleman.
Here is the scripture in Deuteronomy that the whole argument is based upon, "20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."
When you read it carefully you will see that the question is, how to know if what the prophet is saying is from God or not. The last verse basically says the prophets sometimes say things 'presumptuously' so don't worry about it. It never says that a prophet who speaks presumptuously is not a prophet.
The bottom line is that people can take advantage of others by taking scriptures out of context, making them admit to things they know are not correct.
One more point using the logic of the presenter and the expert on scripture: Isaiah writes down a bunch of stuff and says it is from God; there is no other manuscript to verify what he says, so it is based solely on his word; therefore, it can't possibly be true. Isaiah just made that stuff up. How can we know? Because the Nile never dried up like he prophesied in chapter 19.
According to this logic used against the Book of Mormon, then The Revelation of John had failed, too.
“100 of apocryphal” you’ve read 100s? There aren’t 100s…
And Protestants and Catholics only disagree on the deuterocanon and whether it should be a part of the Old Testament, they both agree on the New Testament completely
Yes, hundreds. I have. ??? That's what I do. And yes there are hundreds. ??? Are you new here?
And what about the Orthodox? Armenians? Ethiopians? Bulgarians? Arians? Manicheans? Indo-Syrians? How about them?
@ 1:00 I think Greg just wanted a free trip to Israel so he answered whatever questions they wanted him to answer. Haha
If I was an alien from another planet( I have no dog in the fight) I'm just standing near two fellas talking. One fella says" I'm looking at the map and it says Bobtown is 50 miles to our east". And the second fella says " No, Bobtown is 50 miles to our west,you have a bad reprinted version of the original map" Again,I'm an outsider, i don't know who has an accurate copy of the map. Then all of the sudden all of us hear an excited voice as it rushes toward usdeclaring" Fellas! Rejoice with us we have found the original map!!!!" Now what is the logical response for all that hear and see this? This scenario is exactly like the book of Isaiah. Both the Bible and Book of Mormon contain this Book. The Bible claims the book to say one thing ( for nearly 2000 years) Joseph Smith says " No that is not what the book says. God has revealed to me it says this instead. Then lo and behold , the book of Isaiah is found! Which one was right? Someone is lying
“We have no ancient manuscripts of the Bible, we have at best ones from the 4th and 5th century”
….you mean ancient…?
We have no ancient original manuscripts of the Bible. Zero. Not a one. We have copies of copies of copies of copies made centuries after the fact. The best we can do is copies from the 4th or 5th century.
This reminds me of the LDS Church Historian who admitted in his dirary that he was determined to change Church history to fit his bias. That sounds like what could have happened over centuries.
Great episode gentlemen! Nailed it, well done!
NOTE on "plain and precious truths" being lost. I should have read the verses I was referencing in 1st Nephi 13 here some are:
for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
29 because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book... because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb,
H2S comment. What’s your background on knowing about this stuff?
@@i2rtw 3 internships at oil refineries. Plus the chemistry classes
I think the work of Don, Dan McClellan and Val Larsen. it’s important to note the apostasy didn’t start after Jesus died. Part of the plain and precious truths seem to have been lost when Lehi left Jerusalem. The northern kingdom that already fallen contained the tribe of Joseph. The southern kingdom from Josiah reformed how they taught the history and worship. We can’t downplay the conflating of the divine council to YHWH by Josiah. He’s generally applauded for his actions when he may be the reason for the only one God and Trinity mess. And taking Heavenly Mother out of the picture. And reforming the Hebrew Bible for political and monetary gain
I still think he's an actor BUT if he's not, I hope his Ward got him into some classes.
Of course he is. Only an imposter would pronounce Alma like The Allman Brothers
I think it would make sense for LDS to actually have the earlier Bibles with the apocrypha. I intend to order one. Removing those books was a church of England move, not us so we should really have access to all of them as a matter of regular study.
Yes, Brad! God, in fact, cannot lie. It’s hard to lie when you don’t exist.
I like how you guys completely skipped the part of the dead sea scrolls completely obliterating Isaiah 29 Joseph Smith translation Joseph Smith is a fraud, a fake a phony, and he is not a true profit of God. nice and easy for you guys to skip over that part of the dead scrolls. It would’ve ended this video a lot quicker.😂
The problem with these three gentleman's approach to this topic is flawed from the beginning. We can all talk about when this chapter was written or that book was written and so on.......but don't dance around THE topic.......did Joseph Smith fail in ANY of his prophesies? Without that being HONESTLY evaluated there is no need to discuss further topics
100%
IM SORRY THIS GUY IS NOT A LIFELONG MEMBER!! hahahahaha