One thing I don't like about the lightsaber duels on the Disney + shows is that the blades don't trail as well when they're twirled compared to the prequels.
Not to mention the complete abandonment of the John Williams style scores. So much of the duels feel so generic and boring cause the scores are so not-star wars.
The music editing is something not touched on enough. Yes, John Williams did the score for the sequel films but they were edited and mashed around so poorly
And rightfully so, he was an ass. His approach to his life and his lineage were all wrong. And no matter how many opportunities he was given to turn away he still chose poorly. Up until the very last second which was rushed af. His stubbornness was always his worst quality.
Yeah but the idea of the character was that you see his progression into a Vader-like figure, becoming stronger and really coming into his role as the leader of the dark side. By the end of The Last Jedi, I felt that film did a great job of getting that character to where he needed to be for the final film. When him and Rey have a duel in Rise of Skywalker, they showed that Rey was totally out-matched. So I really think these complaints started in TFA, when by the end, it really wasn't an issue for the arc of the trilogy with that character. For all the complaints I have with the trilogy, Kylo Ren was the highlight of that trilogy and it was one thing they got (mostly) right.
@@jaxyaboy He should literally be the most capable living Jedi after Luke and Leia at that time. Him getting his ass kicked by Rey will never not be a ridiculous thing for the first film in a trilogy. Moreover, his stubbornness wasn't his worse quality. It has his penchant for wildly acting out against his authority figures, who he sees as betraying him.
@@ed1rko17 TLJ showed that Rey only beat Kylo Ren in TFA because he wasn't bringing his A game and if he did, he would have won their fight. Much as I detest Rise of Palpatine and find its saber duels utterly forgettable, we do still see Kylo Ren was the better swordsman and Rey only won their last fight because of his asspull redemption.
Exactly. How can you be scared of a villain that looses in the first film? They should have written it so he absolutely destroyed Rey and Finn, and they had to be rescued somehow. That at least would have saved a shred of Kylo's reputation from the trilogy.
I also really like the speed of the Prequel duels because it explicitly makes the characters feel superhuman, the Sequel duel speeds feel more like the Fallen Order/Survivor games but falls into the problem of it seeming slower since the viewer isn't actively participating and making decisions. Like how being a passenger in a car feels slower to driving even though the actual speed is the same for both.
There's a huge difference between a wonky strike in slomo and deleting an entire weapon in edit to justify your character surviving when she shouldn't.
Yeah but it's something you only notice if you slow down and look for it. Ain't nobody noticing that opening night unless they are looking for reasons to hate.
@@lewis8552 A guy suddenly going from dual-wielding to not dual-wielding is not hard to notice. The knife was there...and then it wasn't. Not something you had to to slow down to notice.
The issue with the throne room scene isn't that the choreography was bad, it was moreso that: 1. Half the guards just stand around doing nothing for half of the fight 2. Some of the guards' weapons just kinda disappear because of convenience for the protagonist
And there’s no build up to the guards. Like how the heck do these random non force users keep up with Rey and kylo. Prequel would kill them like instantly 😂
@@JoopBoop If you want to say you don't actually pay attention when you watch movies, that's fine. But why are you insulting those that do? It's very clear he has two daggers. The movie specifically shows him separating his blade into two, and you see him using both moments before one of them literally disappears. I saw it in the cinema opening night, because you don't need the movie to be slowed down. It's not like a strike where an actor misses their cue, and it's not really noticeable at normal speed. It's right there in the middle of the screen.
@@JoopBoop if the actors fumble the coreography so badly that you need to edit out weapons, you make them stop and do it again i think the culprit is the red curtain that they had to burn in every take
Okay, about the Throne Room duel. Its not about "Pausing and over analysing the choreography." There is just so much pointless, easily fixable, terrible choreography that its like Disney did not try at all.
For George's live action duels, I'd have to say Obi Wan vs Grievous. Most of the shots are too close up and many of the opposing and defending doesn't look as great as the rest of the duels (especially in the Prequels). That specific duel was supposed to be more grand, with the stunt coordinate Nick Gillard saying it was the most choreographed duel he made. Obi Wan was supposed to go against the magna guards first, and then engage General Grievous. But in ROTS the magna guards just instantly get crushed, and he immediately faces Grievous. If you've seen ROTS bts footage of Ewan fighting many guys in green bodysuits with large staffs, that's the scene Nick was proud of...that they cut
@@Blanktester685might wanna reread the start of their comment, they specified the George Lucas live action fights, which would mean original trilogy and prequels only
The magna guard fight getting cut was entirely understandable. Obi Wan and Anakin had already faced them earlier in the movie, the film already the most saber action of any Star Wars movie, and the scene we got was right in character for Obi Wan. I, too, was disappointed with the Grievous fight initially. But, the commentary explained choreographing a 4-armed character with a 2-armed stuntman was basically impossible. Most of the close-ups were to emphasize Grievous losing his hands. I can't be upset with a limitation like that. When I want peak Grievous, I just go back to the 03 animated series. It had no such limitations.
Looooooved the sigh killing all the Jedi in episode 5. The metal to disrupt lightsabers was epic. Brutal as well. Glad that show at least produced that
17:35 Another thing I think is worth noting, the way Luke plays this out is much more in line with what the jedi truly stand for. Taking arguably the more peaceful option and using the force how Yoda taught him to all those years ago in empire strikes back. For knowledge and defence, not attack. Which is only bolstered by the fact that after Luke shows up to save the last of the resistance, not a single other person (save for Luke himself) dies.
@@HoustonSoto that clearly doesn’t mean NEVER attack your enemies or evil people I think people don’t take into account that yoda and obiwan wanted luke to kill Vader and the emperor ( he didn’t and still won but still)
The worst part of that duel (other than not getting to see an actual display of Luke's power, which would have been nice) is that Luke fucking dies at the end. That pissed me off so much.
Alright, I’ll give you the praise for Kylo killing Snoke. I think the potential for Kylo after that was good. But they wasted it so I can’t really forgive it
I remember when I watched Last Jedi for this time this part made my jaw dropped and I was so excited for the story potential that could come from it. I honestly think there's such wasted potential in this, and the part after where Kylo asks Rey to join him. In an alternate universe Rey says yes and we get much a more nuanced story in the final movie focused on the two. It was such an interesting set up.
It was a great moment but it unfortunately killed its surprise when they showed Kylo slowly turning the lightsaber toward Snoke when he was mid monologue. Had they took that bit out it would’ve been one of the greatest twists in the movies
@someotherdude6626 yeah because as it stands. The sith lord didn't expect the obvious betrayal whenthe point is the sith betray. Plus Kylo was meant to complete his training after 7. All he gets is insulted and then loses again. When ep 9 came out i genuinely expected Hux to be a bigger villain cuz wtf was Kylo going to do
Day 1727372 of saying Rey should have had her own Saber Pike or a saber connected to her walking staff that complimented a style Daisy Ridley is comfortable with instead of flailing a saber around
Should’ve been a saberstaff (a perfect weapon to symbolize her past as a scavenger to her future as a Jedi Knight). That should’ve been taken from the Duel of the Fates draft and made into reality.
zesty by itself doesn't bother me, its that drag on the end of a lot of sentences. I couldn't make it past the first minute. "devoueeerrr" "eveeerr" "evolviinnnng"
I know it’s not technically a duel, but the Vader hallway scene in Rogue One absolutely RIPS, and is easily the best lightsaber scene in the Disney era
For all its faults, the acolyte still has some great choreography and epic duels. no love for it? The speed is the closest probably to the prequels, there’s less obnoxious shaky cam, the use of the helmet in the battle in episode 5 is new and changes up the battle formula; it’s pretty strong for lightsaber duels in the Disney era. Would this not be a high point for Disney lightsaber duels? (Just the fights, not story, Just The Fights) I’d at least give it your praise of if you don’t slow it down it’s great and enjoyable! [Also I think Ray Stevenson is awesome in his duels as his fighting style benefits from the slower strikes and heavier sabres due to his size and *gravitas*]
Headbutting lightsabers is not cool. Nor does it make fights interesting. Normal people laughed at it and continue to call it ridiculous. They way people fought didn't make sense to normal people. Im glad you liked the fights but you're in the very minority. Also even if I was to grant that these are the best duels in Disney Star Wars, what does pointing out Well done Make-up on a corpse really mean?
@@TheMonkePrince People hated the storytelling, the fights were actually well choreographed. Not the greatest but the best we’ve had in nearly a decade. Prove me wrong.
@@Binks129They were mediocre at best, just guys swinging swords, there wasn't really context, story, emotion, action They fall arkund the same area as Obi Wan vs Darth Vader on the Death Star, but are definitely better than the other recent disney stuff Like, I expect stuff similar to the Prequels, but there's just lightsabers, nothing else despite being over 50 years in the future
Are you joking? Those fights were absolute GARBAGE. Get some actual standards. I could have done better grabbing my friends and some toy lightsabers like we did as kids.
9:09 Well AcHuaLlY the first time was in AOTC in the segment when Anakin cuts the power cable and he fights Dooku in the dark. They used some clunky props for that segment, but to a great result.
The Obi-Wan vs Vader final fight could’ve started on a cooled volcanic planet. As the fight rages on, the very ground they stand on can start to flare and combust until the end where the area is unrecognizable from the beginning of the fight. This could show the fight and light inside Obi-Wan coming back and depending on how the frame is positioned. This could also show how Vader always destroys everything through his revenge, the calm grounds into raging lava. The light from the lava can shine onto Obi-Wan while he is on top of solid cooled ground while the lava around Vader still flows, showing his undying anger.
The first Kylo/Rey duel in RoS is hilarious cause it's via Force-wifi and you realize that there are stormtroopers watching Kylo talking to himself and swinging his lightsaber at nothing.
I totally understand people liking this fight, but only because it's visual interesting. The fighting is barebones and so freaking bad. So much overs winging and so much force put into a weapon that is pure light. It doesn't weigh anything. Why would you use so much force to strike someone. I could kill both Rey and kylo easily with no training in a lightsaber fight. It just needs a single dodge and a there is no way anyone of them could parry anything. Even if there are open defenses in the prequels, their speed is just inhuman and noone would ever be able to easily kill the enemy without getting killed themselves.
No the LED sabers are terrible. There is little-to-no grace, form, or style in the way that they're handled or choreographed, especially when compared to the prequels. The lightsaber is supposed to be a lightweight instrument of precision, not a lumbering baseball bat. Any added realism of the lighting from the LEDs is immediately squashed by the fact that you can see in their physics that they do not handle in a way befitting a lightweight weapon - a lightweight weapon mind you where ALL of the weight/balancing should be in the hilt. They really missed the forest for the trees with these sequels in more ways than one, but I find the fights, or lack thereof to be particularly bold and egregious on Disney's part. Shame on this corporation for being so full-hardy as to think they could easily appropriate one of the largest IP's of all time; taking something beloved by millions across multiple generations and reducing it to ashes in a mere decade.
According to Lucas and Hamill, in the original film, the lightsaber was supposed to be heavy, requiring two hands to use. As the OT and skill of the wielders progressed, Lucas introduced more speed and one-handed use to showcase that skill. That eventually led into the super quick choreography of the PT. I wouldn't say you're wrong. But, your statement does require some context. Supposed neo-masters of the Force should not have been playing baseball with their sabers.
For the record, I do remember watching that throne room scene on opening night, and I absolutely could tell that something was wrong. The whole thing just felt... off! It was extremely vindicating to have those slowed-down experts explain to me exactly what went wrong, after the fact; because the spectacle wasn't enough to cover shoddy workmanship, in this case, and I don't think they should be excused.
Yeah, even as a little kid, I could tell something was off there. Then I watched the slow motion of the guy blatantly missing Rey completely when she was exposed. At least in the prequel trilogy, you could argue that they were trying to hit a lower part of the body, hence the weapons clashing. In the throne room, the guy swings at literally nothing.
I'm surprised there was no mention (or even a clip if I'm not mistaken) of the Ahsoka vs Anakin duel. Out of all the Disney Plus series, this fight showed that Hayden has still got it! Unencumbered by a Vader suit and despite the heavier LED blades--- Hayden fights as Anakin just as fluidly as he did in the prequels, and even makes Rosario Dawson look good. I suppose it's just another one of those "morsels of quality," but at least out of every streaming fight we've seen, it's one I actually like going back to: the choreography is good, there's emotional stakes, and it served the story!
In the throne room fight, I didn't notice some of the clipping and magically disappearing weapons on opening night, but I sure as hell noticed when Rey kicks away 3 guys with a single kick and the wall randomly goes up in flames when a laser-weapon hits it.
That's not a flaw with the choreography, that's intentional. The three guards' weapons were locked together, so just by basic physics, if Rey kicks one of the guards, the force is going to knock all of them back unless they drop their weapons - which they obviously didn't want to do.
@@ed1rko17 1) How did highly trained guards end up being so awkward as to get their weapons all locked together? 2) There's no way Rey has the strength to kick all 3 of them back with that much force. 3) It looks completely ridiculous, which is important in a visual medium. 4) I've never seen a movie in history that needed more defending than TLJ. What's up with that?
@@FullFatVideos Is it supposed to be a big curtain? It doesn't look like a big curtain. That whole set just looks weird to me, anyway. Just a big, red, featureless background.
@@originaldarkwater You're not wrong for thinking that. In most Lightsaber duels the background has always mattered in some way whether it's lighting or any stage hazards it makes a fight more memorable
Out of the sequels, the only one I actually liked was The Force Awakens. I still hated the fact that Rey bested Kylo in the first round. Even him being injured, even with her being naturally gifted in the force, even with Rey having taken care of herself growing up, it still makes zero sense that she should win. It would’ve been fine if the ground shook and Kylo fell tripped and she capitalized it, that would’ve been better. From that fight though, there was never tension in terms of who would win each fight.
I remember rolling my eyes though both Finn vs Kylo and Kylo/Rey vs the red guards. Fake Luke vs Kylo was decent but short and anticlimactic. I never watched TRoS and never will. Edit: To elaborate on the difference between Luke vs Kylo and Kenobi vs Maul. What makes KvM so good is how it integrates the context of those two characters' stories leading up to that point. In a vacuum without all that, it would just be a quick and clean duel where Maul comes out looking like a bit of a chump, which is basically what LvK is.
I think the fact that you can't really see what's going on in the Disney lightsaber duels is a feature rather than a mistake. It's clear to me from watching them that the actors didn't train all that much for the Disney duels, probably in part because Disney has rushed pretty much every Star Wars production they've undertaken. So with the actors just kind of half-assing the fights, the mid shots that hide the full lightsaber arcs are really just meant to hide the fact that the choreography and execution just isn't that good.
The problem with the throne room fight is there are too many examples of people just sort of almost engaging and then backing up and dancing around doing nothing for no reason and I absolutely noticed it when I watch the movie and it was really annoying to me.
I think the only lightsaber 'duel' that I enjoyed from the disney era was that short bit of vader vs the 3rd sister or whatever, just cause of how powerful vader was and how useless the sister was
The worst lightsaber fight is the Mace Windu Palpatine fight in RotS, it’s so poorly put together, it’s pretty statically shot, no interesting choreography or camera angles, and bless them Sam Jackson & Ian McDiarmid are not the best with lightsabers.
@@benc77 Yeah, these two are some of the most powerful force users & sabre users in the galaxy, a fight between them should be stellar, but it just isn’t.
I'm sure you're aware, but there was a full choreographed fight with stuntmen done, the training clips are here on RUclips. I believe the Palpatine double was injured, and strapped for time they just got Ian McDiarmuid to do it, and bless him, he tried.
I wanna agree with you about the throne fight....but yes I did notice the guy on front spinning his sword, having a clear shot at Rey, missing & chasing her blade (and not even meeting it from what the perspective we have). It was the main thing in frame on the left hand side. It's very obvious.
For having training Lightsabers myself (that don't have neons in the blades nor sounds, like barebones sparring Lightsabers), saying they're heavy is honestly horrendous. It is NOT that heavy and yes, it will fatigue you like anything else but to say it's the cause of such choreography is bad faith. I have been able to go nuts in terms of speed with them during spar sessions and while the technology has evolved to being more efficient today, if they feel this light to use then the older generation of sparring lightsabers wouldn't've been that bad. Now yes, they do weigh a bit so you cannot completely replicate Prequel Era like duels, but you can ABSOLUTELY go nuts with great control if you take the time to properly use them (like any sparring weapon, take full metal training swords, they weigh a lot but with proper training and understanding of the mechanics of it, you can go pretty quickly). But this is what I think of these Lightsaber fights. I still enjoy watching some of them whilst hating others, but they simply lack proper choreography and practice for proper usage.
Honestly, if it wasn't for youtubers pointing it out, I wouldn't have noticed those details in the throne room scene. When I saw the movie for the first time, and even the second, I found the coreography enjoyable and dynamic. I never watched TLJ again after that. But that scene stood out as, at least, entertaining. And I don't think it's an 'I am Iron Man' moment. I think it's a Harry vs Voldermort moment. Damn, the whole movie is basically The Deathly Hallows 1 & 2. EDIT: WAIT, GRACIE ABRAMS IS A NEPO BABY? She's a great artist on her own right, I didn't know she had anything to do with JJ D:
Honestly, I think both of the "duels" in The Last Jedi are pretty strong stuff; far from the best in the series' history, but I really enjoy both sequences, the throne room fight is a solid attempt to recapture the frenetic energy and visceral violence of the prequels fights (even if the choreography is somewhat sloppy), while the confrontation between Luke and Kylo Ren lands when it comes to the character and story behind the "fight", and I'm sorry but the moment it's revealed that Luke was a projection the whole time is a goosebump-inspiring moment. Even though it wasn't mentioned in the video, I think The Acolyte really nailed it when it came to lightsaber combat, the duels we get were really slick and stylish (thanks in large part to the clear wuxia influence) and featured some really great choreography. Easily the best lightsaber fights we've gotten from the Disney era, though that isn't much of a high bar to clear to be honest. Meanwhile the duels in Ahsoka are for me the worst, particularly the ones in the finale, which just feel weightless and forgettable - ironically, the only bit of lightsaber-related material I can sort of remember from the show is when Ezra actually chooses _not_ to use one in the penultimate episode...before going back and using one in the finale anyway.
Completely agree honestly, the Obi Wan/Ahsoka duels are just so bland and tasteless to me. Not bad, but very mediocre. Meanwhile for all its failures The Acolyte has weirdly really good choreography, and I actually love the idea of peacetime Jedi relying on a lot of martial arts, and only drawing a lightsaber when really necessary
It's true. I didn't notice those mistakes. But I found it eye rolling that they took on 6 to 2. It feels somewhat slowed down this way. 4 against 2 would have sufficed and would have made the choreography a bit more manageable
People always complain that you can’t find a middle ground between the choreographed high speed of the prequels and the realism of the OT, but duels were literally perfected in the KOTOR shorts
Those weren't even a middle ground. They were even more "ridiculous" than the prequel duels. Jedi dual-wielding with a double-bladed saber, trooper wrestling a Sith, a Jedi Force-blocking a lightsaber just to Force-Kamehameha a Sith? Those shorts were fire. Only duels that were crazier were in the 03 micro-series.
I hear you, but Luke using specifically that blue lightsaber in TLJ is literally the central drama of the movie. He takes up that blue lightsaber that he tossed away at the beginning of the film. It shows that he has recommitted himself to what he was initially rejecting, and becomes what the galaxy needed him to be. That's the core tenant of so much of the drama of the sequel trilogy. Not only that, but as Kylo Ren states at the end of TFA, he believes that lightsaber belongs to him, so it's also following up on that. As a bonus, Luke using the blue saber is more iconic, because him using it in ESB is the most iconic moment in all of Star Wars.
@@ed1rko17 Arguably, he didn't have any lightsaber when the most iconic moment in Star Wars happened. For Luke, his green lightsaber in the Emperor's Throne Room is way more iconic. Or catching it as R2 ejects it towards him on Tatooine. Maybe that's just me. I don't see him with blue, in my mind.
Hayden carries the duel in Ahsoka, and it was disappointing to see Ahsoka keep using one because Rosario couldn’t seem to handle two. Surprisingly, I thought Ariana Greenblatt swung the sabers better than Rosario.
the issue is Rosario is in her 40s. Hayden had extensive training in swordsmanship at a very young age during the making of the prequels, which is why his movement still look good despite being 40 himself Its a hard thing to learn when you are age 40 and never had any background in sword fighting
In the Ahsoka-Anakin fights, you could literally see Hayden Christensen waiting for Rosario to get into position. The one bright spot in that series was Ariana Greenblat as young Ahsoka. Being a trained gymnast, she made the bit of fighting she had look good.
I couldn't quite put my hand on why the final fight with Kylo and Rey seemed to rub me the wrong way and now that you put words to it, I feel whole. The fight was just slow and the heavy blades are VERY evident. I also agree that the streaming fights, Ahsoka in particular, felt too choreographed and unnatural. The few clips you showed also really exemplified the "I'm here at this stop pose waiting for the next strike."
My biggest problem with the sequel fights (and a lot of modern fight scenes) is that they try so hard to look pretty that they end up looking fake. There’s too many perfectly framed shots, too many movements that are played to the camera and too much cheesy dialogue that you are constantly reminded that you are watching a movie. I agree the way people dissected the throne room fight was a bit over the top but my problem with that scene was always the visuals. It looks like a bunch of people on a movie set, it doesn’t look like people in a real world having a real fight. That’s the best way I can describe my problem with almost all of the sequel movie fights.
Honestly this is ironically my biggest problem with the prequel fights, where the flashiness and over-the-top theatricality shatters my immersion in the actual fight. All of the prequel fights to some extent, but most egregiously the ROTS ones, are so over-choreographed & almost gimmicky that it feels, well, like a choreographed dance instead of a battle to the death. I really appreciated the return to the OT's more lowkey fights in the sequels because it actually feels like people are trying to kill each other with their sabers again
I literally have the opposite opinion. I think the sequel fights don’t look good because they’re trying too hard to be based in realism. They don’t play to the medium enough. Prequel duels are fun ridiculous and make no sense. They are over the top and that’s why they’re fun.
@@MrInfinity418 I can respect that, & it's a totally valid opinion, but it's not really my thing. For the same reason I disagree with Full Fat on most of McDiarmid's performance in ROTS because I'd really like to be able to appreciate the gravity of the moment & take it seriously but can't because of Palpy's goofy ass lines & delivery, but to each his own ig
I will say I think Duel of the Fates strikes the best balance of the prequel fights between theatricality & believability, I buy Maul way more as a Sith assassin than I do Dooku or Palpy as actual duelists
As mentioned for the sequels they used plastic LED lit blades. You can't really swing those with the same force like the aluminum or carbon fiber blades of the prequels. Also, the LED technology makes the hilts thicker and more difficult to hold than the thinner more ergonomic ones from the prequels. Daisy Ridley's hands are (presumably) smaller than Ewan McGregor's or Hayden Christensen's, yet her lightsaber hilt is way bulkier. And she clearly didn't train for 2-3 months like those guys did. Hell, her choreographer bragged how she learned her stuff in 90 minute and in the TLJ we see her awkwardly swing at that rock on planet Ireland and we see why it was only 90 minutes. I don't know if it was a creative choice to make the hilts more bulkier or they knew that their over-priced toys in Galaxy's Edge are gonna be that bulky to fit the electronics, so they made the movie ones also... fat. It's hilarious that fan-made lightsabers you can get online are easier to handle and fit all the electronics for the LED lights AND a sound card, AND are more screen accurate, but a multi-billion dollar company can't do that. On the topic of choreography, first they tried to remove themselves from the prequels than they backtracked, but never got truly back. They made a big hoopla about Anakin's signature move, that behind the back spin/block, so they had him do it in both Kenobi and Ahsoka. Yet, the difference that in ROTS it's done so close to Obi-Wan that it actually blocks Obi-Wan's swing, yet in both Kenobi and Ahsoka, when Anakin does it it's while his opponent is several feet away from him, so he's just prancing around for no reason. Also, the attempt to translate the Clone Wars type choreography to live-action with constant 2 second pauses between 3 swings didn't work. Makes the whole thing stilted and you realized that Rosario Dawson spins around for no reason when there's nobody near her.
My problem with the throne room fight is that I did notice several messed choreography moments, the initial clash between Ray and the 4 guard where they aim higher than she is and bind their own weapons together. I noticed it immediately and now after every rewatch I notice something else. And what I hate is that it’s all on Ray, Kylo’s half is actually decent and good. But Ray’s is horrible. Daisy Ridley clearly either didn’t get enough prep time for the scene or just didn’t care enough to get it right and it annoys me cuz you can clearly tell that Adam Driver is throwing his all into it.
That’s cause the sequels only ever used blue and red except for 2 flash back scenes and Rey having the yellow lightsaber at the end, which apparently in concept art she was gonna have a double bladed blue lightsaber, she should of had a double bladed yellow one, it would of been cool to see a light side character use a double blade in live action or actually in animation too besides the old republic ones. Even if they didn’t do that she should of had the yellow saber the whole movie, at least make something about her cool
Making the blades heavier in this era of star wars honestly feels fitting for the setting. These are post empire force wielders, trained by the survivors of order 66 and the crumbling empire. The dramatism baked into republic era lightsaber forms was abandoned for a reason - and the most legendary saber duellist in recent history was Vader, who's entire style was defined by power rather than speed. The problem is that other aspects of the scene detract from that. No lost limbs, no grit to the fight - hell we don't even see any trees cleaved in half and falling over. The prop sabers are made to _feel_ like prop sabers. The close camera angles sacrifice a lot of the dramatic natural lighting gained from using real props. It _could_ have felt like the most impactful, weighty, gritty, and dangerous era of sabers. More diverse choreography than the OT, but with equal or worse consequences, and the benefits of practical lighting and the realism of physical weight. Instead, they made the right call with the sabers and style, but undermined that at every turn. classic abrams
Last month, on December 29, I went to a concert where they were playing John Williams music, and it was an absolutely magical experience. The second half of the concert was entirely dedicated to Star Wars tracks. And I was rather pleasantly surprised when they played the music from the finale of The Force Awakens, when Rey finds Luke on Ahch-To, followed by the end credits theme, which also includes Rey, Kylo and the Resistance's motifs. I wasn't expecting that, considering the sequel trilogy's reputation, but it was pretty big of the people behind the concert to acknowledge these flicks like that and give them some due because, for all their faults, there are some good things about them, no matter how much people don't want to admit it. This video acts as a nice companion piece to that concert. You were fair and did a great job breaking down these duels, listing off their pros and cons, especially the Finn/Rey/Kylo fight. I hope you do more similar videos on the sequel trilogy this year.
6:50 Wow, that's a perfect idea of Finn's character. Why couldn't Rian or J.J. come up with like, anything interesting with Finn that relates to his past as a stormtrooper?
Because they decided to wing it instead of actually sitting down and planning things out. Let me tell you about two of the most famous comic book stories from the 90s - Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage and The Death of Superman. You know why these stories were successful? Because the artists working on them actually planned out every single beat, bringing up ideas and discussing what works and what doesn't while simultaneously making sure that everything that the various creative teams handling the different titles comprising the books will have synergy and gel together in one coherent package. The team behind Maximum Carnage locked themselves in a hotel room for a few days and spent their time there ironing out every single detail of the story's 14 chapters. And that is exactly what Kathleen Kennedy should have done - she should have reserved a presidential suite in a fancy hotel for Abrams, Johnson and Trevorrow (before he was fired), all expenses paid, told them to plot out the entire overarching storyline of the trilogy over the course of a few days, make sure their respective visions and ideas actually gel, and then come back when they are ready and present what they have come up with. But then again, I'm not the head of a multi-billion dollar company, so what the heck do I know, right?
@dvass7253 I second all of that. Imagine bring the Disney Lucasfilm CEO. You were handling the largest film franchise of all time! Why wouldn't you pour ALL of your resources into crafting the continuation of such a cultural important series? Honestly, they probably just assumed Star Wars was too big to fail. They thought showing us recognizable inagry would be enough. Big mistake.
24:46 The problem with Ahsoka is that the actress isn't athletic. Ahsoka as a character is very athletic, and it shows in her fighting style in the animated series's, but it seems the live action actress is just not physically capable of the moves.
@@TheKiltedGerman Exactly, It's not necessarily something against her as an actress, but she probably shouldn't have been chosen for this role, because even her running in some scenes looks awkward. They would have to use a lot of doubles for her for the athletic scenes to look good, in my opinion.
@ Yeah, that's fair. Definitely a compromise to get her star power added to the show. But, the writing should have been adjusted given her physical limitations. Reminds me of one of the reasons Tom Holland got the role as Spider Man was because he was a trained gymnast and the stunts/poses came naturally to him.
I'm not crazy about the lightsaber fights in the Sequels, too, and that's mainly because REY IS NOT A SWORDSMAN! She absolutely rips with her staff in The Force Awakens against the guys that attack her, and in The Last Jedi she even put's Luke in his place forcing him to grab an antenna to protect himself from her attacks, and only once he manages to get the staff away from her does she cheat and turn his lightsaber against him, but he's basically on the backfoot the entire time. When the lightsaber cracks in half in The Last Jedi, that's the time to make a double bladed lightsaber, it's clearly more suited to her skillset. There's nothing wrong with having the hero use a double bladed lightsaber, it's not inherently evil, it's just a tool, and I bet she'd have been really good with it, too. Also, would that not have been a neat inversion of The Phantom Menace where the main villain had that type of a weapon but now it's being used by the hero? So much wasted potential in The Rise of Skywalker. The best fights are in The Last Jedi, I do very much enjoy the throne room fight, and if only Luke's lightsaber had been green on Crait, but I like what I saw in that movie. I do also like the dual location duel from The Rise of Skywalker specifically because it is such an interesting concept and it builds off what was teased in The Last Jedi. The worst fight is also in The Rise of Skywalker on the Death Star wreckage. It's just a fight to have a fight, and Rey is the aggressor, which doesn't look good considering she's supposed to be the hero. The wirework jumps feel like they didn't have enough buildup to jump so far, the fight is slow and sluggish, and I am not a fan of blocking the blades with the Force.It's a neat idea for certain characters that are just on a completely different power level, but now it just seems like a gimmick. Oh, what if they just didn't use their lightsaber and blocked it with the Force? Yeah, but what's the point? Vader doing it against Reva works, everyone else though, it kind of sucks. Oh, and the first fight between Obi-Wan and Vader sucks. It just doesn't feel like either Hayden Christensen or David Prowse's movements as Vader. The second fight is halfway decent becoming a bit more like the 2D Clone Wars action with Obi-Wan chucking all those rocks, but the actual duel itself, it's still only okay. I disagree about Ahsoka though, I found the fights in her show to be pretty good, much more on the level with what we've seen with the character before. Nothing will ever top what she's capable of in animation though, but it at least felt a bit more what lightsaber duels should be. I also just hate the look of the lightsabers these days. They're way too thick and chubby. They're rounded at the ends instead of that long taper from the Originals and Episodes I and II and Rebels, nor do they have a sharp point on the end like Episode III and Clone Wars, they're just a long tube with a rounded end, just like the LED sabers they use on set. They're already replacing the blades anyway since they're only being used for lighting, now just make them look how they're supposed to. Okay, and while you dodged a bullet in not watching The Acolyte from a storytelling standpoint, the action is actually pretty rad, particularly the episode Night which is pretty much nonstop lightsaber action. Unfortunately though, the lightsabers kind of appear to just be the LED blades, no post production done to fix how they look, or they were post-processed to be more like how actual light is captured in camera, making them much more hollow in their movement, there's not that solid white core like most other things we've seen. Also, while Night is good, it's all spectacle over substance within the larger picture of The Acolyte. There's great action throughout the show, but if there's no narrative to back it up and make that action satisfying beyond surface level visuals, then what's the point?
@@JediMaestr0 there's "not being entirely realistic", and then there's editing out weapons you, the director, somehow forgot were there when shooting the scene. Go watch a Wuxia film. Those fights are beyond ridiculous. What they don't do is depend on continuity errors and have guys standing around in the actual shot.
It’s because there’s no build up to the guards. Like who the heck are these non force users who are just randomly fighting now in the big fight of the movie. Rey and kylo should’ve killed them instantly. That’s in my opinion why it felt weurd
In my opinion the biggest factor on what makes a good lightsaber duel is the context. For example, Luke and Vader's duel in The Empire Strikes Back is not as exciting in the beginning but its their first duel. Vader was testing Luke, even toying with him by just fighting with one hand, Luke uses everything he learned from Yoda including force jumps to surprise Vader, then the duel increase in tension and ferocity, going through several locations until the climactic end where even the music suddenly chages when Vader cuts off Luke's hand.
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rey yells in anger with just about every lightsaber blow she takes? That's behavior that I would expect from a dark side user, if anyone, and yet, they never have even a hint of Rey being in any real danger of falling to the dark side, jump-scare-dark-side-Rey-vision notwithstanding. I'm guessing they told her to do it that way to make her feel more dramatic, intense and "man-like" for lack of a better term, but it really just exposes how little the people making Star Wars at Disney (with a few notable exceptions) actually understand Star Wars.
The first duel between Kenobi and Vader on the show is the worst. It burns all the anticipation of their long awaited duel, it makes Vader look like a dumbass when he lets Obi-Wan be rescued instead of extinguishing the fire and grabbing him with the Force and just on a technical level, fuck. The choreo, lightning the shaky cam.... it's atrocious
One idea for what they could have done with Kylo Ren being the Emperor could have had him being manipulated by Palpatine’s Sith Ghost leading him down a path that would have let to Palpatine possessing him. Kind of like one of the storylines in “Star Wars The Old Republic” where a Darkside user possessed the main character and tried to manipulate you to use his power to attempt to gain more control and put himself in a position where he could rule over the galaxy pretending to be you, the person who just saved it. There were so many things they could have done differently to make it better, like one idea I had was they could have kept the same story but have Palpatine actually posses Ray then have Kylo return to the light as Ben and help defeat him and become “Ben Skywalker” since he is a wanted war criminal and would need a new identity to rebuild the Jedi order. It would also be poetic having the final fight be again “Skywalker vs Palpatine”. And so Ray isn’t just a puppet in the end it could be interesting to see her spirit trying to fight off Palpatine’s control as well, saving Ben in key moments where he would have been killed.
I didn't even realise that the pre-Disney era of lightsaber combat was heavily inspired by Kendo until I became a Kendoka and learned to fight in a similar manner 🤔🤔🤔
What I like about Ben killing Snoke is how it’s shows that even if a person can read your thoughts and emotions, doesn’t mean they can’t misinterpret them and draw the wrong conclusions. The fact that Ben was cunning enough to acknowledge and take advantage of this shows that he’s more than just a whiny darksider as most people perceive him as. Ironically it was Rey being the one to lose control on that scene meanwhile Kylo was able to remain composed long enough to deceive Snoke. Kylo’s composure can also show that he still has a bit of that Jedi influence in him which can explain why his eyes never turn Sith red. He’s kinda like Dooku in that regard.
What’s the best lightsaber duel from the Disney shows? I wouldn’t say it counts but the Mando Season 2 Luke fight will always be an awesome moment and one of my favourite moments
Its a cool fight, I think because a lot of it is cg replacement the blades seem to move faster - its probably easier to fake the speed when its just blocking laser fire vs clashing blades with two actors
A final note is that Luke's blue saber really did ruin the reveal of him not being there. Like... I get the idea that we see what Kylo is seeing. If he wasn't so hot-headed and took a moment, he would have figured out that Luke couldn't have had his blue saber. But the over-reliance of Anakin's blade is just so stupid
Love how we put down the rematch between Vader and Obi ignoring the fact that this the midway between their slowest encounter and their fastest encounter and that they are clearly aging as well as having different reasons as to why they are slower. Obi an older man who has trained in years. Vader a literal walking cyborg. No sorry, but that rematch in the desert was absolutely amazing. It showcased how Vader has to move now thanks to his suit. That was the fight you could have left out.
The problem is not LED sabers per se, most fan films use them as well. The problem that Disney/ILM have over complicated their lightsaber design. They are all RGB and have wireless DMX (light control like actual filming lights) and that requires heavy batteries as well. ILM can make simple glow sticks like dueling sabers fans use and be as fast as prequel duels with almost no compromise. Even you need some special lighting effect, it can be moved to a close up with a special FX saber with all bells and whistles.
I honestly always thought that the reason lightsabres didn't cast light on the user was because of its magnetic chamber, or whatever it's called, that they use to keep the blade shape, basically letting only minimal light escape, enough to see the blade, but not enough to cast a noticeable colour change. When Disney added the lights, the choreography took a massive plummet because they had to avoid breaking the props, which then lead to the fights being awful. They really didn't need lights or realism with the sabres, it's stories about space wizards after all, just a good story and better fights, which they have neither at the moment, except for a couple exceptions
You don't need to slow down the video to notice Rey kicking one red guy, and then three of them go spinning away, or that Kylo just pointlessly stabbed his saber into the ground.
It's weird hearing somebody say in the same breath that they love the prequel fights but dislike the sequel fights because they lack grit. Ballet with glowsticks never seemed that gritty to me.
That's like claiming Neo vs Agent smith wasn't gritty. Just because it's choreographed and quickly paced doesn't mean it lacks grit. Every time a lightsaber touches someone in the prequels, there's a consequence.
@@TheKiltedGerman It's the style. It's too polished and balletic. It looks like actors performing choreography. Then, at the end of the choreography, somebody's missing a hand. But it doesn't have the feeling of grit - to me, anyway.
@ That isn't an argument. You just described nearly every action film involving melee between characters. Every action film looks like actors performing choreography. The Matrix does the same thing. John Wick does the same thing. Every kung fu or Bruce Lee movie does the same thing. Every Marvel fight does the same thing. Every other Star Wars movie looks like the actors performing choreography. This argument is only ever applied to the prequels and I'm sick of seeing it. There aren't any movies where they just tell the actors to literally fight each other. You would have to try and argue how every other movie fight is somehow more "gritty" despite being entirely choreographed.
@@TheKiltedGerman The argument is that the choreography has a different feel to it. I'm sure we'll both agree here: the fight choreography in The Princess Bride feels very different to the fight choreography in Saving Private Ryan and both feel different to the choreo in Charlie Chaplin films. They have different styles, tones, and objectives. What I am trying to say is that the Prequel fights feel pre-planned and balletic to me. And, please, I would like to restate: to me. If they feel different to you: fine. That's your experience with them. Some fights in movies feel choreographed and are stellar. Achilles vs. Hector in Troy, for instance, never feels realistic, but it's amazing. Other fights feel raw and real. In The Fighter, I found myself questioning whether or not they were really hammering each other in that ring. Some fights look choreographed and they telegraph that fact, sapping energy and effectiveness. A lot of television fights on shows from the '50s or '60s have this tone to them. They look rehearsed and like actors are just going through the motions. The energy, drive, and tone is wrong. Of course, all movies are scripted (improv notwithstanding) and all fights are choreographed (hopefully, anyway, for safety) but some movies make you feel like the plot is filled with eye-roll-inducing deus ex machina and some fights belie their artificial nature.
@@ghr8184 Dude, I have zero clue how you can complain about the prequels feeling "pre-planned and balletic" in one paragraph, just to praise Achilles v. Hector in another. It's the same kind of fight choreography. Brad Pitt literally twirled a spear around him and jumped around Eric Bana. And before you start, no, that is not a criticism of Troy's fight choreography. If this is the best explanation you or anyone else can come up with, I'm not taking this argument seriously anymore. What you have is a selective suspension of disbelief. I don't know why. I don't care. It isn't rational, and you try conflating it with legitimately badly done choreography to justify it.
The "Maul vs Obi-Wan" duel In "Rebels" was soooooo good because you see Obi-Wan finding Maul's Shatter Point. It brings back the first Duel they both had how Maul killed Qui-Gonn. The difference was Obi-Wan had grown past that, but Maul was still the same person deep down inside. Maul literately tried the exact same move he used to kill Qui-Gonn, but Obi-Wan saw it coming & countered it easily. Maul tried to knock his saber to the side, hit him in the head with his hilt, & stab him in the torso like he did to Qui-Gonn. Obi-Wan just waited until Maul dropped his guard by attacking with his hilt, & cut straight through his lightsaber.
I remember watching a video showing comparing the duels from the Prequels to the sequels From the serious lack of Training you can tell was given to the Sequel trilogy cast compared to the Prequel trilogy having numerous months of Training,from the lack of flair and agility or flips,to the lack of force powers mixed with the lightsaber dueling. Something i feel the Prequels got major Flack on only to get its due later on was with the choreography. Alot of people considered it unrealistic or too overchoreographed but I saw it as George highlighting not only how the Jedi were the "PEACEKEEPERS OF THEIR TIME" but also the fact that they are ALL practically Superhuman due to the Force. They shouldn't be moving realistically or seemingly bound by regular human movement limits. They should be fast enough to dodge blasters,and the ability to maneuver laser beams.
The prequels are literally the only context in which I have ever heard the "over choreographed" argument used in. Matrix movies, John Wick films, the Raid movies, all the old kung fu films, every other movie sword fight, every single fist fight in every single superhero movie ever...nothing. It's only the prequels that are somehow over choreographed.
What they can do is mix the use of LED sabers and lighter sabers in filming. Use the thin sticks for wider and longer shots that focus on style and dynamism. Then switch them with the lit up handhelds for close ups and character moments, like when we see the main actors instead of their stunt counterparts.
Ive seen multiple people say TLJ is worth it for the throne room fight. Thats how smooth brain's react to any lightsaber combat. Even if its god awful.
One of things that stood out to me about of the finale of Ahsoka was has bad the fight scenes were, especially the duel between Ahsoka and Elsbeth. Ahsoka was moving much slower and was obviously stiff compared to Elsbeth. So when Ahsoka wins the fight, you don't believe it. The finale was a let down for many reasons, but that part what really bad.
The worst fight to be is Rey v Kylo when they’re on the destroyed Death Star in Rise of Skywalker. It was just slow and anticlimactic and I could only think, how is a piece of the Death Star even here when both literally blow up to bits
It’s not that the Throne Room fight has mistakes, it’s that the mistakes are very noticeable, there are a lot, and even the film makers noticed them. When I first saw it in theaters I was excited during the fight, but when I left the theater I started to feel that stuff about the whole movie was weird. Later when I could watch it again at home I started finding parts about the Throne Room that weren’t right. It started to feel more like a fight in an amateur play than something serious. And I’ve seen all the fights multiple times and it’s still the only one that feels very wrong.
I actually think Ahsoka's first fight with Baylan is really good. It's a shame that their follow up fight isn't anywhere near as good, but it is what it is.
Because this channel has gotten so high and mighty and almost never takes the time to appreciate the good. It’s fallen quite hard for the easy clicks of negativity.
@@jimnicholls5215or that it’s just not considered canon in they eyes of those who care about the franchise. They broke the universe of Star Wars with that show if you do consider it. With that said, cool, there’s few good things about it. Doesn’t mean it should be on this list
The Acolyte, overloaded with problems, nevertheless had some great fight choreography and light saber duels, occasionally even being actually innovative - without breaking canon…well, light saber canon, anyway.
@ lightsaber canon doesn’t allow 90% of what the show represented unfortunately. I understand innovative, and there was a little bit that made sense, but I’ve seen fan films with good choreography. Doesn’t make it canon, and sure as shit didn’t cost a hundred million
I like to believe that in the originals and the sequels, the jedi to be aren’t being trained by Warriors. They’re being trained by old people. Rey, Kylo and even Finn aren’t warriors like Obi and Anakin. Compared to them, the newbies are just that, newbies. so seeing them swing without a purpose makes sense. but i wish the prequel style was kept
I didn't really notice the Disney Sequel era's lack of green blades until you pointed it out here, and now I know it will haunt me every time I rewatch Last Jedi. This is Jedi Consular erasure, and I will not stand for it. 😡
gonna push back against a couple of things: while i do think luke using his own saber would have looked nice and fixed the color diversity issue the sequels had, i actually love that luke uses anakin's saber. it's a taunt. the saber that kylo couldn't get his grubby mitts on. i also love that luke doesn't KNOW the saber got split in half, and kylo is too fucking angry to piece together the fact that it has. i also genuinely think i would have been insulted if they had sheev swirling lightsabers around AGAIN. it was bad enough in the prequels and clone wars, but having him swing a laser sword AFTER he brushes off luke's lightsaber as just a "jedi weapon" just seems like adding EVEN MORE insult to palatine's character.
The Obi-Wan/Vader fight is easily better than any duel in the sequels. Luke showing up in the Mandalorian season 2 finale is easily the best moment in Disney Star Wars! Second maybe to the Vader hallway fight!
I absolutely love the force awakens fight, love the lighting the storytelling and the choreography. The implementation of heavier LED sabers really works for that scene, everyone is inexperienced and tired and it’s a night time. but I really don’t understand why they were adamant to use the LED sabers for any other fight, none of the others used the light the same way.
There's no reason the sequels needed those real sabers after the starkiller base duel. If the scene doesn't benefit from the practical lighting they provide, then they only serve to slow the actors down.
Literally EVERY “duel” in the Obiwan show was the worst. Yes! Even the “Rematch of the Century” All of them are very POORLY choreographed, the special effects were trash (there isn’t even a hole for the blade to come out in the anakin training duel), Reva is annoying af, the writing is atrocious (making it nearly impossible to take it seriously), and OMG the Annoying shaky cam. Overall they’re all just unwatchable. You can tell that they literally did NOT EVEN TRY At all. Yeah the sequel duels we’re also bad (Hell TLJ didn’t even have a duel and TROS had the same problems as the Obiwan duels), but at the very least they were visually stunning and looked cool, something I can’t say for the Obiwan show. (Even if they literally made no sense).
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Might you ever cover Ahsoka vs Darth Vader?
@@Kakaragi I wrote a draft of it back in the day, maybe I could add in their subsequent dreamscape fight in the world between worlds now
The crazy camera shake with multiple cuts for Obi Wan vs Vader duel should be considered a crime
That entire show is a crime
That show is so mediocre in terms of direction that even if you dont known anything about cinema you can sense it.
Agree a thousand times over. Of all the Disney lightsaber duels, I rank it #1 in suckiness.
Why? It was all the way back in A New Hope, but I wouldn’t call the camera work “shaky” in it.
@@fern8336 he was referring to the obi wan kenobi show haha
One thing I don't like about the lightsaber duels on the Disney + shows is that the blades don't trail as well when they're twirled compared to the prequels.
Not to mention the complete abandonment of the John Williams style scores. So much of the duels feel so generic and boring cause the scores are so not-star wars.
this!
The music editing is something not touched on enough. Yes, John Williams did the score for the sequel films but they were edited and mashed around so poorly
The problem with having Kylo be the big bad of E9 was that he'd spent the last 2 movies getting his ass kicked.
And rightfully so, he was an ass. His approach to his life and his lineage were all wrong. And no matter how many opportunities he was given to turn away he still chose poorly. Up until the very last second which was rushed af.
His stubbornness was always his worst quality.
Yeah but the idea of the character was that you see his progression into a Vader-like figure, becoming stronger and really coming into his role as the leader of the dark side. By the end of The Last Jedi, I felt that film did a great job of getting that character to where he needed to be for the final film. When him and Rey have a duel in Rise of Skywalker, they showed that Rey was totally out-matched. So I really think these complaints started in TFA, when by the end, it really wasn't an issue for the arc of the trilogy with that character. For all the complaints I have with the trilogy, Kylo Ren was the highlight of that trilogy and it was one thing they got (mostly) right.
@@jaxyaboy He should literally be the most capable living Jedi after Luke and Leia at that time. Him getting his ass kicked by Rey will never not be a ridiculous thing for the first film in a trilogy. Moreover, his stubbornness wasn't his worse quality. It has his penchant for wildly acting out against his authority figures, who he sees as betraying him.
@@ed1rko17 TLJ showed that Rey only beat Kylo Ren in TFA because he wasn't bringing his A game and if he did, he would have won their fight. Much as I detest Rise of Palpatine and find its saber duels utterly forgettable, we do still see Kylo Ren was the better swordsman and Rey only won their last fight because of his asspull redemption.
Exactly. How can you be scared of a villain that looses in the first film? They should have written it so he absolutely destroyed Rey and Finn, and they had to be rescued somehow. That at least would have saved a shred of Kylo's reputation from the trilogy.
I also really like the speed of the Prequel duels because it explicitly makes the characters feel superhuman, the Sequel duel speeds feel more like the Fallen Order/Survivor games but falls into the problem of it seeming slower since the viewer isn't actively participating and making decisions. Like how being a passenger in a car feels slower to driving even though the actual speed is the same for both.
There's a huge difference between a wonky strike in slomo and deleting an entire weapon in edit to justify your character surviving when she shouldn't.
Yeah but it's something you only notice if you slow down and look for it. Ain't nobody noticing that opening night unless they are looking for reasons to hate.
@@lewis8552 A guy suddenly going from dual-wielding to not dual-wielding is not hard to notice. The knife was there...and then it wasn't. Not something you had to to slow down to notice.
The issue with the throne room scene isn't that the choreography was bad, it was moreso that:
1. Half the guards just stand around doing nothing for half of the fight
2. Some of the guards' weapons just kinda disappear because of convenience for the protagonist
And there’s no build up to the guards. Like how the heck do these random non force users keep up with Rey and kylo. Prequel would kill them like instantly 😂
And did you notice these weapons disappearing when watching it, or did you need a RUclipsr to slow it down and point it out to you?
@JoopBoop it isn't exactly discreet my guy, same with half of them just standing around twirling their weapons while 2 attack at a time
@@JoopBoop
If you want to say you don't actually pay attention when you watch movies, that's fine. But why are you insulting those that do?
It's very clear he has two daggers. The movie specifically shows him separating his blade into two, and you see him using both moments before one of them literally disappears. I saw it in the cinema opening night, because you don't need the movie to be slowed down. It's not like a strike where an actor misses their cue, and it's not really noticeable at normal speed. It's right there in the middle of the screen.
@@JoopBoop if the actors fumble the coreography so badly that you need to edit out weapons, you make them stop and do it again
i think the culprit is the red curtain that they had to burn in every take
Okay, about the Throne Room duel. Its not about "Pausing and over analysing the choreography." There is just so much pointless, easily fixable, terrible choreography that its like Disney did not try at all.
For George's live action duels, I'd have to say Obi Wan vs Grievous. Most of the shots are too close up and many of the opposing and defending doesn't look as great as the rest of the duels (especially in the Prequels). That specific duel was supposed to be more grand, with the stunt coordinate Nick Gillard saying it was the most choreographed duel he made. Obi Wan was supposed to go against the magna guards first, and then engage General Grievous. But in ROTS the magna guards just instantly get crushed, and he immediately faces Grievous. If you've seen ROTS bts footage of Ewan fighting many guys in green bodysuits with large staffs, that's the scene Nick was proud of...that they cut
throne room fight scene... watch shadversitys video and tell me its better then this.
@@Blanktester685might wanna reread the start of their comment, they specified the George Lucas live action fights, which would mean original trilogy and prequels only
@@Blanktester685 what are you talking about man
@@turzilla don't mind them. They didn't read the first sentence before replying
The magna guard fight getting cut was entirely understandable. Obi Wan and Anakin had already faced them earlier in the movie, the film already the most saber action of any Star Wars movie, and the scene we got was right in character for Obi Wan.
I, too, was disappointed with the Grievous fight initially. But, the commentary explained choreographing a 4-armed character with a 2-armed stuntman was basically impossible. Most of the close-ups were to emphasize Grievous losing his hands. I can't be upset with a limitation like that. When I want peak Grievous, I just go back to the 03 animated series. It had no such limitations.
dang i really wanted your thoughts on the acolyte duels
The acolyte easily has the best lightsaber fights in the Disney era
I was wondering, too. Maybe he hasn't seen the acolyte.
Qimir vs Sol was a phenomenal battle.
Looooooved the sigh killing all the Jedi in episode 5. The metal to disrupt lightsabers was epic. Brutal as well. Glad that show at least produced that
@@MrTDWfan I hope if anything disney takes away from that show, is that the action was done really well
17:35 Another thing I think is worth noting, the way Luke plays this out is much more in line with what the jedi truly stand for. Taking arguably the more peaceful option and using the force how Yoda taught him to all those years ago in empire strikes back. For knowledge and defence, not attack. Which is only bolstered by the fact that after Luke shows up to save the last of the resistance, not a single other person (save for Luke himself) dies.
THANK YOU. “The force is used for knowledge and defense, never attack”. People got so hot on saber duels that they became too bloodthirsty
@@HoustonSoto that clearly doesn’t mean NEVER attack your enemies or evil people I think people don’t take into account that yoda and obiwan wanted luke to kill Vader and the emperor ( he didn’t and still won but still)
I always think of Obi-Wan “there are alternatives to fighting.”
The worst part of that duel (other than not getting to see an actual display of Luke's power, which would have been nice) is that Luke fucking dies at the end. That pissed me off so much.
The quote lost all meaning when he willingly to late the galaxy fall to evil because of dumbass mistake.
Alright, I’ll give you the praise for Kylo killing Snoke. I think the potential for Kylo after that was good. But they wasted it so I can’t really forgive it
I remember when I watched Last Jedi for this time this part made my jaw dropped and I was so excited for the story potential that could come from it.
I honestly think there's such wasted potential in this, and the part after where Kylo asks Rey to join him. In an alternate universe Rey says yes and we get much a more nuanced story in the final movie focused on the two. It was such an interesting set up.
It was a great moment but it unfortunately killed its surprise when they showed Kylo slowly turning the lightsaber toward Snoke when he was mid monologue. Had they took that bit out it would’ve been one of the greatest twists in the movies
@someotherdude6626 yeah because as it stands. The sith lord didn't expect the obvious betrayal whenthe point is the sith betray.
Plus Kylo was meant to complete his training after 7. All he gets is insulted and then loses again. When ep 9 came out i genuinely expected Hux to be a bigger villain cuz wtf was Kylo going to do
Day 1727372 of saying Rey should have had her own Saber Pike or a saber connected to her walking staff that complimented a style Daisy Ridley is comfortable with instead of flailing a saber around
That still bothers me,
Why establish that she is good with a staff if she just never uses it once she leaves jaku?
This would have fixed the Sequels in ways that JJ couldn't even imagine
Should’ve been a saberstaff (a perfect weapon to symbolize her past as a scavenger to her future as a Jedi Knight). That should’ve been taken from the Duel of the Fates draft and made into reality.
0:24 that "to devour" sounded so zesty😂😂😂
The narrator drags the end of his words a lot doesn’t he 😂
zesty by itself doesn't bother me, its that drag on the end of a lot of sentences. I couldn't make it past the first minute. "devoueeerrr" "eveeerr" "evolviinnnng"
Devouwaaa💅💅✨✨
I know it’s not technically a duel, but the Vader hallway scene in Rogue One absolutely RIPS, and is easily the best lightsaber scene in the Disney era
For all its faults, the acolyte still has some great choreography and epic duels. no love for it? The speed is the closest probably to the prequels, there’s less obnoxious shaky cam, the use of the helmet in the battle in episode 5 is new and changes up the battle formula; it’s pretty strong for lightsaber duels in the Disney era. Would this not be a high point for Disney lightsaber duels? (Just the fights, not story, Just The Fights) I’d at least give it your praise of if you don’t slow it down it’s great and enjoyable!
[Also I think Ray Stevenson is awesome in his duels as his fighting style benefits from the slower strikes and heavier sabres due to his size and *gravitas*]
Headbutting lightsabers is not cool. Nor does it make fights interesting. Normal people laughed at it and continue to call it ridiculous. They way people fought didn't make sense to normal people. Im glad you liked the fights but you're in the very minority.
Also even if I was to grant that these are the best duels in Disney Star Wars, what does pointing out Well done Make-up on a corpse really mean?
@@TheMonkePrince People hated the storytelling, the fights were actually well choreographed. Not the greatest but the best we’ve had in nearly a decade. Prove me wrong.
@@Binks129They were mediocre at best, just guys swinging swords, there wasn't really context, story, emotion, action
They fall arkund the same area as Obi Wan vs Darth Vader on the Death Star, but are definitely better than the other recent disney stuff
Like, I expect stuff similar to the Prequels, but there's just lightsabers, nothing else despite being over 50 years in the future
@@glauberglousger956 I asked a simple question. Name one better in the past decade.
Are you joking? Those fights were absolute GARBAGE. Get some actual standards. I could have done better grabbing my friends and some toy lightsabers like we did as kids.
9:09 Well AcHuaLlY the first time was in AOTC in the segment when Anakin cuts the power cable and he fights Dooku in the dark. They used some clunky props for that segment, but to a great result.
The Obi-Wan vs Vader final fight could’ve started on a cooled volcanic planet. As the fight rages on, the very ground they stand on can start to flare and combust until the end where the area is unrecognizable from the beginning of the fight.
This could show the fight and light inside Obi-Wan coming back and depending on how the frame is positioned. This could also show how Vader always destroys everything through his revenge, the calm grounds into raging lava. The light from the lava can shine onto Obi-Wan while he is on top of solid cooled ground while the lava around Vader still flows, showing his undying anger.
The first Kylo/Rey duel in RoS is hilarious cause it's via Force-wifi and you realize that there are stormtroopers watching Kylo talking to himself and swinging his lightsaber at nothing.
I totally understand people liking this fight, but only because it's visual interesting. The fighting is barebones and so freaking bad. So much overs winging and so much force put into a weapon that is pure light. It doesn't weigh anything. Why would you use so much force to strike someone. I could kill both Rey and kylo easily with no training in a lightsaber fight.
It just needs a single dodge and a there is no way anyone of them could parry anything.
Even if there are open defenses in the prequels, their speed is just inhuman and noone would ever be able to easily kill the enemy without getting killed themselves.
No the LED sabers are terrible. There is little-to-no grace, form, or style in the way that they're handled or choreographed, especially when compared to the prequels. The lightsaber is supposed to be a lightweight instrument of precision, not a lumbering baseball bat. Any added realism of the lighting from the LEDs is immediately squashed by the fact that you can see in their physics that they do not handle in a way befitting a lightweight weapon - a lightweight weapon mind you where ALL of the weight/balancing should be in the hilt.
They really missed the forest for the trees with these sequels in more ways than one, but I find the fights, or lack thereof to be particularly bold and egregious on Disney's part.
Shame on this corporation for being so full-hardy as to think they could easily appropriate one of the largest IP's of all time; taking something beloved by millions across multiple generations and reducing it to ashes in a mere decade.
According to Lucas and Hamill, in the original film, the lightsaber was supposed to be heavy, requiring two hands to use. As the OT and skill of the wielders progressed, Lucas introduced more speed and one-handed use to showcase that skill. That eventually led into the super quick choreography of the PT.
I wouldn't say you're wrong. But, your statement does require some context. Supposed neo-masters of the Force should not have been playing baseball with their sabers.
For the record, I do remember watching that throne room scene on opening night, and I absolutely could tell that something was wrong. The whole thing just felt... off! It was extremely vindicating to have those slowed-down experts explain to me exactly what went wrong, after the fact; because the spectacle wasn't enough to cover shoddy workmanship, in this case, and I don't think they should be excused.
yea his defense for the throne room scene was “if u can’t notice a mistake at regular speed then it’s invalid”
Yeah, even as a little kid, I could tell something was off there. Then I watched the slow motion of the guy blatantly missing Rey completely when she was exposed. At least in the prequel trilogy, you could argue that they were trying to hit a lower part of the body, hence the weapons clashing. In the throne room, the guy swings at literally nothing.
I wouldn’t sacrifice choreography for realism
I'm surprised there was no mention (or even a clip if I'm not mistaken) of the Ahsoka vs Anakin duel. Out of all the Disney Plus series, this fight showed that Hayden has still got it! Unencumbered by a Vader suit and despite the heavier LED blades--- Hayden fights as Anakin just as fluidly as he did in the prequels, and even makes Rosario Dawson look good. I suppose it's just another one of those "morsels of quality," but at least out of every streaming fight we've seen, it's one I actually like going back to: the choreography is good, there's emotional stakes, and it served the story!
Star wars gotta start doing heavy CGI on lightsaber battles to make them look more interesting
In the throne room fight, I didn't notice some of the clipping and magically disappearing weapons on opening night, but I sure as hell noticed when Rey kicks away 3 guys with a single kick and the wall randomly goes up in flames when a laser-weapon hits it.
I don't see the problem with the wall catching on fire?
That's not a flaw with the choreography, that's intentional. The three guards' weapons were locked together, so just by basic physics, if Rey kicks one of the guards, the force is going to knock all of them back unless they drop their weapons - which they obviously didn't want to do.
@@ed1rko17 1) How did highly trained guards end up being so awkward as to get their weapons all locked together?
2) There's no way Rey has the strength to kick all 3 of them back with that much force.
3) It looks completely ridiculous, which is important in a visual medium.
4) I've never seen a movie in history that needed more defending than TLJ. What's up with that?
@@FullFatVideos Is it supposed to be a big curtain? It doesn't look like a big curtain. That whole set just looks weird to me, anyway. Just a big, red, featureless background.
@@originaldarkwater You're not wrong for thinking that. In most Lightsaber duels the background has always mattered in some way whether it's lighting or any stage hazards it makes a fight more memorable
Out of the sequels, the only one I actually liked was The Force Awakens. I still hated the fact that Rey bested Kylo in the first round. Even him being injured, even with her being naturally gifted in the force, even with Rey having taken care of herself growing up, it still makes zero sense that she should win. It would’ve been fine if the ground shook and Kylo fell tripped and she capitalized it, that would’ve been better. From that fight though, there was never tension in terms of who would win each fight.
It's like every crappy fantasy novel where the protagonist is the author's self-insert character and beats the antagonist in their first meeting.
I remember rolling my eyes though both Finn vs Kylo and Kylo/Rey vs the red guards. Fake Luke vs Kylo was decent but short and anticlimactic. I never watched TRoS and never will.
Edit: To elaborate on the difference between Luke vs Kylo and Kenobi vs Maul. What makes KvM so good is how it integrates the context of those two characters' stories leading up to that point. In a vacuum without all that, it would just be a quick and clean duel where Maul comes out looking like a bit of a chump, which is basically what LvK is.
It makes me sad because I’m pretty sure Nick Gillard would find a way to help Rosario Dawson shine with the choreography if given the chance.
I think the fact that you can't really see what's going on in the Disney lightsaber duels is a feature rather than a mistake. It's clear to me from watching them that the actors didn't train all that much for the Disney duels, probably in part because Disney has rushed pretty much every Star Wars production they've undertaken. So with the actors just kind of half-assing the fights, the mid shots that hide the full lightsaber arcs are really just meant to hide the fact that the choreography and execution just isn't that good.
The problem with the throne room fight is there are too many examples of people just sort of almost engaging and then backing up and dancing around doing nothing for no reason and I absolutely noticed it when I watch the movie and it was really annoying to me.
I think the only lightsaber 'duel' that I enjoyed from the disney era was that short bit of vader vs the 3rd sister or whatever, just cause of how powerful vader was and how useless the sister was
The worst lightsaber fight is the Mace Windu Palpatine fight in RotS, it’s so poorly put together, it’s pretty statically shot, no interesting choreography or camera angles, and bless them Sam Jackson & Ian McDiarmid are not the best with lightsabers.
Fr it’s meant to be two saber masters but it looks like two drunk people fighting
@@benc77 I disagree! ruclips.net/video/Iezm0mPz2-0/видео.html
@@FullFatVideos il give it a watch
@@benc77
Yeah, these two are some of the most powerful force users & sabre users in the galaxy, a fight between them should be stellar, but it just isn’t.
I'm sure you're aware, but there was a full choreographed fight with stuntmen done, the training clips are here on RUclips. I believe the Palpatine double was injured, and strapped for time they just got Ian McDiarmuid to do it, and bless him, he tried.
I think it's really great. Not as great as prequels but still really great and better than Disney plus shows.
I wanna agree with you about the throne fight....but yes I did notice the guy on front spinning his sword, having a clear shot at Rey, missing & chasing her blade (and not even meeting it from what the perspective we have).
It was the main thing in frame on the left hand side. It's very obvious.
For having training Lightsabers myself (that don't have neons in the blades nor sounds, like barebones sparring Lightsabers), saying they're heavy is honestly horrendous. It is NOT that heavy and yes, it will fatigue you like anything else but to say it's the cause of such choreography is bad faith. I have been able to go nuts in terms of speed with them during spar sessions and while the technology has evolved to being more efficient today, if they feel this light to use then the older generation of sparring lightsabers wouldn't've been that bad.
Now yes, they do weigh a bit so you cannot completely replicate Prequel Era like duels, but you can ABSOLUTELY go nuts with great control if you take the time to properly use them (like any sparring weapon, take full metal training swords, they weigh a lot but with proper training and understanding of the mechanics of it, you can go pretty quickly). But this is what I think of these Lightsaber fights. I still enjoy watching some of them whilst hating others, but they simply lack proper choreography and practice for proper usage.
No actor in the Disney era has been able to sell lightsabre duels. I never got the sense that anyone was in danger
Honestly, if it wasn't for youtubers pointing it out, I wouldn't have noticed those details in the throne room scene.
When I saw the movie for the first time, and even the second, I found the coreography enjoyable and dynamic.
I never watched TLJ again after that. But that scene stood out as, at least, entertaining.
And I don't think it's an 'I am Iron Man' moment. I think it's a Harry vs Voldermort moment.
Damn, the whole movie is basically The Deathly Hallows 1 & 2.
EDIT: WAIT, GRACIE ABRAMS IS A NEPO BABY?
She's a great artist on her own right, I didn't know she had anything to do with JJ D:
Honestly, I think both of the "duels" in The Last Jedi are pretty strong stuff; far from the best in the series' history, but I really enjoy both sequences, the throne room fight is a solid attempt to recapture the frenetic energy and visceral violence of the prequels fights (even if the choreography is somewhat sloppy), while the confrontation between Luke and Kylo Ren lands when it comes to the character and story behind the "fight", and I'm sorry but the moment it's revealed that Luke was a projection the whole time is a goosebump-inspiring moment.
Even though it wasn't mentioned in the video, I think The Acolyte really nailed it when it came to lightsaber combat, the duels we get were really slick and stylish (thanks in large part to the clear wuxia influence) and featured some really great choreography. Easily the best lightsaber fights we've gotten from the Disney era, though that isn't much of a high bar to clear to be honest. Meanwhile the duels in Ahsoka are for me the worst, particularly the ones in the finale, which just feel weightless and forgettable - ironically, the only bit of lightsaber-related material I can sort of remember from the show is when Ezra actually chooses _not_ to use one in the penultimate episode...before going back and using one in the finale anyway.
Completely agree honestly, the Obi Wan/Ahsoka duels are just so bland and tasteless to me. Not bad, but very mediocre. Meanwhile for all its failures The Acolyte has weirdly really good choreography, and I actually love the idea of peacetime Jedi relying on a lot of martial arts, and only drawing a lightsaber when really necessary
It's true. I didn't notice those mistakes. But I found it eye rolling that they took on 6 to 2. It feels somewhat slowed down this way. 4 against 2 would have sufficed and would have made the choreography a bit more manageable
People always complain that you can’t find a middle ground between the choreographed high speed of the prequels and the realism of the OT, but duels were literally perfected in the KOTOR shorts
The ahsoka show kinda did this with the first Baylon fight I noticed it was slow but the swings felt powerful especially with Baylon
Those weren't even a middle ground. They were even more "ridiculous" than the prequel duels. Jedi dual-wielding with a double-bladed saber, trooper wrestling a Sith, a Jedi Force-blocking a lightsaber just to Force-Kamehameha a Sith? Those shorts were fire. Only duels that were crazier were in the 03 micro-series.
Great points about the Anakin saber. Its like hyping up "Stalin's Mosin-Nagant" or whatever. The weapon has done unspeakable evil, why celebrate it?
I hear you, but Luke using specifically that blue lightsaber in TLJ is literally the central drama of the movie. He takes up that blue lightsaber that he tossed away at the beginning of the film. It shows that he has recommitted himself to what he was initially rejecting, and becomes what the galaxy needed him to be. That's the core tenant of so much of the drama of the sequel trilogy. Not only that, but as Kylo Ren states at the end of TFA, he believes that lightsaber belongs to him, so it's also following up on that. As a bonus, Luke using the blue saber is more iconic, because him using it in ESB is the most iconic moment in all of Star Wars.
@@ed1rko17
Arguably, he didn't have any lightsaber when the most iconic moment in Star Wars happened.
For Luke, his green lightsaber in the Emperor's Throne Room is way more iconic. Or catching it as R2 ejects it towards him on Tatooine. Maybe that's just me. I don't see him with blue, in my mind.
4:34 Hate how bouncy these new sabers are.
Hayden carries the duel in Ahsoka, and it was disappointing to see Ahsoka keep using one because Rosario couldn’t seem to handle two. Surprisingly, I thought Ariana Greenblatt swung the sabers better than Rosario.
the issue is Rosario is in her 40s. Hayden had extensive training in swordsmanship at a very young age during the making of the prequels, which is why his movement still look good despite being 40 himself
Its a hard thing to learn when you are age 40 and never had any background in sword fighting
@ that’s true, I just can’t understand why they don’t stunt double her more often. It’s not like they don’t have the money too.
@ He's also probably just in overall better shape for his age.
In the Ahsoka-Anakin fights, you could literally see Hayden Christensen waiting for Rosario to get into position. The one bright spot in that series was Ariana Greenblat as young Ahsoka. Being a trained gymnast, she made the bit of fighting she had look good.
I couldn't quite put my hand on why the final fight with Kylo and Rey seemed to rub me the wrong way and now that you put words to it, I feel whole. The fight was just slow and the heavy blades are VERY evident.
I also agree that the streaming fights, Ahsoka in particular, felt too choreographed and unnatural. The few clips you showed also really exemplified the "I'm here at this stop pose waiting for the next strike."
My biggest problem with the sequel fights (and a lot of modern fight scenes) is that they try so hard to look pretty that they end up looking fake. There’s too many perfectly framed shots, too many movements that are played to the camera and too much cheesy dialogue that you are constantly reminded that you are watching a movie. I agree the way people dissected the throne room fight was a bit over the top but my problem with that scene was always the visuals. It looks like a bunch of people on a movie set, it doesn’t look like people in a real world having a real fight. That’s the best way I can describe my problem with almost all of the sequel movie fights.
Honestly this is ironically my biggest problem with the prequel fights, where the flashiness and over-the-top theatricality shatters my immersion in the actual fight. All of the prequel fights to some extent, but most egregiously the ROTS ones, are so over-choreographed & almost gimmicky that it feels, well, like a choreographed dance instead of a battle to the death. I really appreciated the return to the OT's more lowkey fights in the sequels because it actually feels like people are trying to kill each other with their sabers again
Plus the constant use of glaringly obvious cg backdrops/elements in the prequel fights don't really help with immersion either
I literally have the opposite opinion. I think the sequel fights don’t look good because they’re trying too hard to be based in realism. They don’t play to the medium enough. Prequel duels are fun ridiculous and make no sense. They are over the top and that’s why they’re fun.
@@MrInfinity418 I can respect that, & it's a totally valid opinion, but it's not really my thing. For the same reason I disagree with Full Fat on most of McDiarmid's performance in ROTS because I'd really like to be able to appreciate the gravity of the moment & take it seriously but can't because of Palpy's goofy ass lines & delivery, but to each his own ig
I will say I think Duel of the Fates strikes the best balance of the prequel fights between theatricality & believability, I buy Maul way more as a Sith assassin than I do Dooku or Palpy as actual duelists
As mentioned for the sequels they used plastic LED lit blades. You can't really swing those with the same force like the aluminum or carbon fiber blades of the prequels. Also, the LED technology makes the hilts thicker and more difficult to hold than the thinner more ergonomic ones from the prequels. Daisy Ridley's hands are (presumably) smaller than Ewan McGregor's or Hayden Christensen's, yet her lightsaber hilt is way bulkier. And she clearly didn't train for 2-3 months like those guys did. Hell, her choreographer bragged how she learned her stuff in 90 minute and in the TLJ we see her awkwardly swing at that rock on planet Ireland and we see why it was only 90 minutes.
I don't know if it was a creative choice to make the hilts more bulkier or they knew that their over-priced toys in Galaxy's Edge are gonna be that bulky to fit the electronics, so they made the movie ones also... fat. It's hilarious that fan-made lightsabers you can get online are easier to handle and fit all the electronics for the LED lights AND a sound card, AND are more screen accurate, but a multi-billion dollar company can't do that.
On the topic of choreography, first they tried to remove themselves from the prequels than they backtracked, but never got truly back. They made a big hoopla about Anakin's signature move, that behind the back spin/block, so they had him do it in both Kenobi and Ahsoka. Yet, the difference that in ROTS it's done so close to Obi-Wan that it actually blocks Obi-Wan's swing, yet in both Kenobi and Ahsoka, when Anakin does it it's while his opponent is several feet away from him, so he's just prancing around for no reason. Also, the attempt to translate the Clone Wars type choreography to live-action with constant 2 second pauses between 3 swings didn't work. Makes the whole thing stilted and you realized that Rosario Dawson spins around for no reason when there's nobody near her.
Lol, Planet Ireland got me.
My problem with the throne room fight is that I did notice several messed choreography moments, the initial clash between Ray and the 4 guard where they aim higher than she is and bind their own weapons together. I noticed it immediately and now after every rewatch I notice something else. And what I hate is that it’s all on Ray, Kylo’s half is actually decent and good. But Ray’s is horrible. Daisy Ridley clearly either didn’t get enough prep time for the scene or just didn’t care enough to get it right and it annoys me cuz you can clearly tell that Adam Driver is throwing his all into it.
My brother and I also hate the overabundance of blue lightsabers. We both love how few there are in the Mandalorian
That’s cause the sequels only ever used blue and red except for 2 flash back scenes and Rey having the yellow lightsaber at the end, which apparently in concept art she was gonna have a double bladed blue lightsaber, she should of had a double bladed yellow one, it would of been cool to see a light side character use a double blade in live action or actually in animation too besides the old republic ones. Even if they didn’t do that she should of had the yellow saber the whole movie, at least make something about her cool
Making the blades heavier in this era of star wars honestly feels fitting for the setting. These are post empire force wielders, trained by the survivors of order 66 and the crumbling empire. The dramatism baked into republic era lightsaber forms was abandoned for a reason - and the most legendary saber duellist in recent history was Vader, who's entire style was defined by power rather than speed. The problem is that other aspects of the scene detract from that. No lost limbs, no grit to the fight - hell we don't even see any trees cleaved in half and falling over. The prop sabers are made to _feel_ like prop sabers. The close camera angles sacrifice a lot of the dramatic natural lighting gained from using real props. It _could_ have felt like the most impactful, weighty, gritty, and dangerous era of sabers. More diverse choreography than the OT, but with equal or worse consequences, and the benefits of practical lighting and the realism of physical weight. Instead, they made the right call with the sabers and style, but undermined that at every turn. classic abrams
Last month, on December 29, I went to a concert where they were playing John Williams music, and it was an absolutely magical experience. The second half of the concert was entirely dedicated to Star Wars tracks. And I was rather pleasantly surprised when they played the music from the finale of The Force Awakens, when Rey finds Luke on Ahch-To, followed by the end credits theme, which also includes Rey, Kylo and the Resistance's motifs. I wasn't expecting that, considering the sequel trilogy's reputation, but it was pretty big of the people behind the concert to acknowledge these flicks like that and give them some due because, for all their faults, there are some good things about them, no matter how much people don't want to admit it. This video acts as a nice companion piece to that concert. You were fair and did a great job breaking down these duels, listing off their pros and cons, especially the Finn/Rey/Kylo fight. I hope you do more similar videos on the sequel trilogy this year.
John Williams is the one part of any Star Wars film no one complains about.
Bro went to the bathroom at the end lol.
6:50 Wow, that's a perfect idea of Finn's character.
Why couldn't Rian or J.J. come up with like, anything interesting with Finn that relates to his past as a stormtrooper?
Because they decided to wing it instead of actually sitting down and planning things out. Let me tell you about two of the most famous comic book stories from the 90s - Spider-Man: Maximum Carnage and The Death of Superman. You know why these stories were successful? Because the artists working on them actually planned out every single beat, bringing up ideas and discussing what works and what doesn't while simultaneously making sure that everything that the various creative teams handling the different titles comprising the books will have synergy and gel together in one coherent package. The team behind Maximum Carnage locked themselves in a hotel room for a few days and spent their time there ironing out every single detail of the story's 14 chapters. And that is exactly what Kathleen Kennedy should have done - she should have reserved a presidential suite in a fancy hotel for Abrams, Johnson and Trevorrow (before he was fired), all expenses paid, told them to plot out the entire overarching storyline of the trilogy over the course of a few days, make sure their respective visions and ideas actually gel, and then come back when they are ready and present what they have come up with. But then again, I'm not the head of a multi-billion dollar company, so what the heck do I know, right?
@dvass7253 I second all of that. Imagine bring the Disney Lucasfilm CEO. You were handling the largest film franchise of all time! Why wouldn't you pour ALL of your resources into crafting the continuation of such a cultural important series?
Honestly, they probably just assumed Star Wars was too big to fail. They thought showing us recognizable inagry would be enough. Big mistake.
Because the Chinese audience wouldn't accept a black guy actually being a significant character. I'm only half-joking.
24:46 The problem with Ahsoka is that the actress isn't athletic. Ahsoka as a character is very athletic, and it shows in her fighting style in the animated series's, but it seems the live action actress is just not physically capable of the moves.
And I’d imagine that her head peice doesn’t make it easy to move either
Can't blame her. Rosaria Dawson ain't a young lady anymore. But, that's what doubles are for. Worked just fine for Christopher Lee 20 years earlier.
@@TheKiltedGerman Exactly, It's not necessarily something against her as an actress, but she probably shouldn't have been chosen for this role, because even her running in some scenes looks awkward. They would have to use a lot of doubles for her for the athletic scenes to look good, in my opinion.
@ Yeah, that's fair. Definitely a compromise to get her star power added to the show. But, the writing should have been adjusted given her physical limitations. Reminds me of one of the reasons Tom Holland got the role as Spider Man was because he was a trained gymnast and the stunts/poses came naturally to him.
My brother in christ, we just saw one of the guards miss on purpose her head in normal speed.
I'm not crazy about the lightsaber fights in the Sequels, too, and that's mainly because REY IS NOT A SWORDSMAN! She absolutely rips with her staff in The Force Awakens against the guys that attack her, and in The Last Jedi she even put's Luke in his place forcing him to grab an antenna to protect himself from her attacks, and only once he manages to get the staff away from her does she cheat and turn his lightsaber against him, but he's basically on the backfoot the entire time. When the lightsaber cracks in half in The Last Jedi, that's the time to make a double bladed lightsaber, it's clearly more suited to her skillset. There's nothing wrong with having the hero use a double bladed lightsaber, it's not inherently evil, it's just a tool, and I bet she'd have been really good with it, too. Also, would that not have been a neat inversion of The Phantom Menace where the main villain had that type of a weapon but now it's being used by the hero? So much wasted potential in The Rise of Skywalker.
The best fights are in The Last Jedi, I do very much enjoy the throne room fight, and if only Luke's lightsaber had been green on Crait, but I like what I saw in that movie. I do also like the dual location duel from The Rise of Skywalker specifically because it is such an interesting concept and it builds off what was teased in The Last Jedi. The worst fight is also in The Rise of Skywalker on the Death Star wreckage. It's just a fight to have a fight, and Rey is the aggressor, which doesn't look good considering she's supposed to be the hero. The wirework jumps feel like they didn't have enough buildup to jump so far, the fight is slow and sluggish, and I am not a fan of blocking the blades with the Force.It's a neat idea for certain characters that are just on a completely different power level, but now it just seems like a gimmick. Oh, what if they just didn't use their lightsaber and blocked it with the Force? Yeah, but what's the point? Vader doing it against Reva works, everyone else though, it kind of sucks.
Oh, and the first fight between Obi-Wan and Vader sucks. It just doesn't feel like either Hayden Christensen or David Prowse's movements as Vader. The second fight is halfway decent becoming a bit more like the 2D Clone Wars action with Obi-Wan chucking all those rocks, but the actual duel itself, it's still only okay.
I disagree about Ahsoka though, I found the fights in her show to be pretty good, much more on the level with what we've seen with the character before. Nothing will ever top what she's capable of in animation though, but it at least felt a bit more what lightsaber duels should be.
I also just hate the look of the lightsabers these days. They're way too thick and chubby. They're rounded at the ends instead of that long taper from the Originals and Episodes I and II and Rebels, nor do they have a sharp point on the end like Episode III and Clone Wars, they're just a long tube with a rounded end, just like the LED sabers they use on set. They're already replacing the blades anyway since they're only being used for lighting, now just make them look how they're supposed to.
Okay, and while you dodged a bullet in not watching The Acolyte from a storytelling standpoint, the action is actually pretty rad, particularly the episode Night which is pretty much nonstop lightsaber action. Unfortunately though, the lightsabers kind of appear to just be the LED blades, no post production done to fix how they look, or they were post-processed to be more like how actual light is captured in camera, making them much more hollow in their movement, there's not that solid white core like most other things we've seen. Also, while Night is good, it's all spectacle over substance within the larger picture of The Acolyte. There's great action throughout the show, but if there's no narrative to back it up and make that action satisfying beyond surface level visuals, then what's the point?
Dang, I pretty much agree with all of this. Well said
It doesn't matter what style you give Rey she is a MaRey Sue for a reason.
this gotta be bait if you think the throne room fight was choreograph well.
@@Blanktester685 You don’t have to think a fight is realistically choreographed to enjoy it
@@JediMaestr0 there's "not being entirely realistic", and then there's editing out weapons you, the director, somehow forgot were there when shooting the scene. Go watch a Wuxia film. Those fights are beyond ridiculous. What they don't do is depend on continuity errors and have guys standing around in the actual shot.
Nah, when I saw that throne room fight in theaters, I didn't see the errors but it was underwhelming. It was weird and I didn't know why
It’s because there’s no build up to the guards. Like who the heck are these non force users who are just randomly fighting now in the big fight of the movie. Rey and kylo should’ve killed them instantly. That’s in my opinion why it felt weurd
21:36
Oh gods you just reminded me of all the media that tried to copy the "i am iron man" scene for years
Lightsabers are canonically heavy, and the prequel trilogy was with masters at their prime.
To summarise, Disney need to design sabers that are lighter, but are still LED lit
I would be happy with the light in post like before tbh. Choreography and cinematography over blade light
Slowing down sure, but 13:09 here rey teleporting hands is so in the face its hilarious
Or 13:14 rey kicking 3 guys at once, like come on, its not a nit picking background stuntman slipping and failing
12:03 Fair or not, this scene has forever cemented Rian Johnson in my mind as a pretentious prick who thinks of himself as an "artiste".
In my opinion the biggest factor on what makes a good lightsaber duel is the context. For example, Luke and Vader's duel in The Empire Strikes Back is not as exciting in the beginning but its their first duel. Vader was testing Luke, even toying with him by just fighting with one hand, Luke uses everything he learned from Yoda including force jumps to surprise Vader, then the duel increase in tension and ferocity, going through several locations until the climactic end where even the music suddenly chages when Vader cuts off Luke's hand.
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rey yells in anger with just about every lightsaber blow she takes? That's behavior that I would expect from a dark side user, if anyone, and yet, they never have even a hint of Rey being in any real danger of falling to the dark side, jump-scare-dark-side-Rey-vision notwithstanding. I'm guessing they told her to do it that way to make her feel more dramatic, intense and "man-like" for lack of a better term, but it really just exposes how little the people making Star Wars at Disney (with a few notable exceptions) actually understand Star Wars.
The first duel between Kenobi and Vader on the show is the worst. It burns all the anticipation of their long awaited duel, it makes Vader look like a dumbass when he lets Obi-Wan be rescued instead of extinguishing the fire and grabbing him with the Force and just on a technical level, fuck. The choreo, lightning the shaky cam.... it's atrocious
One idea for what they could have done with Kylo Ren being the Emperor could have had him being manipulated by Palpatine’s Sith Ghost leading him down a path that would have let to Palpatine possessing him. Kind of like one of the storylines in “Star Wars The Old Republic” where a Darkside user possessed the main character and tried to manipulate you to use his power to attempt to gain more control and put himself in a position where he could rule over the galaxy pretending to be you, the person who just saved it.
There were so many things they could have done differently to make it better, like one idea I had was they could have kept the same story but have Palpatine actually posses Ray then have Kylo return to the light as Ben and help defeat him and become “Ben Skywalker” since he is a wanted war criminal and would need a new identity to rebuild the Jedi order. It would also be poetic having the final fight be again “Skywalker vs Palpatine”. And so Ray isn’t just a puppet in the end it could be interesting to see her spirit trying to fight off Palpatine’s control as well, saving Ben in key moments where he would have been killed.
J.J. Abrams didn't turn Snoke into Sidious. He just revealed that Snoke was created by Sidious in Star Wars 9.
No he turned snoke into sidious. It’s pretty obvious there was never a plan to bring back palpatine
I didn't even realise that the pre-Disney era of lightsaber combat was heavily inspired by Kendo until I became a Kendoka and learned to fight in a similar manner 🤔🤔🤔
What I like about Ben killing Snoke is how it’s shows that even if a person can read your thoughts and emotions, doesn’t mean they can’t misinterpret them and draw the wrong conclusions. The fact that Ben was cunning enough to acknowledge and take advantage of this shows that he’s more than just a whiny darksider as most people perceive him as. Ironically it was Rey being the one to lose control on that scene meanwhile Kylo was able to remain composed long enough to deceive Snoke. Kylo’s composure can also show that he still has a bit of that Jedi influence in him which can explain why his eyes never turn Sith red. He’s kinda like Dooku in that regard.
11:14 11:23 i like the way he gets humbled as well, twice even
I fucking hate the sparks. Lightsabers never made sparks until Disney got ahold of it.
What’s the best lightsaber duel from the Disney shows? I wouldn’t say it counts but the Mando Season 2 Luke fight will always be an awesome moment and one of my favourite moments
Its a cool fight, I think because a lot of it is cg replacement the blades seem to move faster - its probably easier to fake the speed when its just blocking laser fire vs clashing blades with two actors
@@FullFatVideosThat’s true, it fixes one of the main ‘Disney era’ problems with the slow heavy swings. It feels in the same vein as the prequel duels
A final note is that Luke's blue saber really did ruin the reveal of him not being there. Like... I get the idea that we see what Kylo is seeing. If he wasn't so hot-headed and took a moment, he would have figured out that Luke couldn't have had his blue saber. But the over-reliance of Anakin's blade is just so stupid
Love how we put down the rematch between Vader and Obi ignoring the fact that this the midway between their slowest encounter and their fastest encounter and that they are clearly aging as well as having different reasons as to why they are slower.
Obi an older man who has trained in years.
Vader a literal walking cyborg.
No sorry, but that rematch in the desert was absolutely amazing. It showcased how Vader has to move now thanks to his suit. That was the fight you could have left out.
they rly wasted kylo and finn, bro....
The problem is not LED sabers per se, most fan films use them as well. The problem that Disney/ILM have over complicated their lightsaber design. They are all RGB and have wireless DMX (light control like actual filming lights) and that requires heavy batteries as well. ILM can make simple glow sticks like dueling sabers fans use and be as fast as prequel duels with almost no compromise. Even you need some special lighting effect, it can be moved to a close up with a special FX saber with all bells and whistles.
I honestly always thought that the reason lightsabres didn't cast light on the user was because of its magnetic chamber, or whatever it's called, that they use to keep the blade shape, basically letting only minimal light escape, enough to see the blade, but not enough to cast a noticeable colour change. When Disney added the lights, the choreography took a massive plummet because they had to avoid breaking the props, which then lead to the fights being awful. They really didn't need lights or realism with the sabres, it's stories about space wizards after all, just a good story and better fights, which they have neither at the moment, except for a couple exceptions
You don't need to slow down the video to notice Rey kicking one red guy, and then three of them go spinning away, or that Kylo just pointlessly stabbed his saber into the ground.
It's weird hearing somebody say in the same breath that they love the prequel fights but dislike the sequel fights because they lack grit. Ballet with glowsticks never seemed that gritty to me.
That's like claiming Neo vs Agent smith wasn't gritty. Just because it's choreographed and quickly paced doesn't mean it lacks grit. Every time a lightsaber touches someone in the prequels, there's a consequence.
@@TheKiltedGerman It's the style. It's too polished and balletic. It looks like actors performing choreography. Then, at the end of the choreography, somebody's missing a hand. But it doesn't have the feeling of grit - to me, anyway.
@ That isn't an argument. You just described nearly every action film involving melee between characters. Every action film looks like actors performing choreography. The Matrix does the same thing. John Wick does the same thing. Every kung fu or Bruce Lee movie does the same thing. Every Marvel fight does the same thing. Every other Star Wars movie looks like the actors performing choreography.
This argument is only ever applied to the prequels and I'm sick of seeing it. There aren't any movies where they just tell the actors to literally fight each other. You would have to try and argue how every other movie fight is somehow more "gritty" despite being entirely choreographed.
@@TheKiltedGerman The argument is that the choreography has a different feel to it. I'm sure we'll both agree here: the fight choreography in The Princess Bride feels very different to the fight choreography in Saving Private Ryan and both feel different to the choreo in Charlie Chaplin films. They have different styles, tones, and objectives.
What I am trying to say is that the Prequel fights feel pre-planned and balletic to me. And, please, I would like to restate: to me. If they feel different to you: fine. That's your experience with them.
Some fights in movies feel choreographed and are stellar. Achilles vs. Hector in Troy, for instance, never feels realistic, but it's amazing. Other fights feel raw and real. In The Fighter, I found myself questioning whether or not they were really hammering each other in that ring. Some fights look choreographed and they telegraph that fact, sapping energy and effectiveness. A lot of television fights on shows from the '50s or '60s have this tone to them. They look rehearsed and like actors are just going through the motions. The energy, drive, and tone is wrong.
Of course, all movies are scripted (improv notwithstanding) and all fights are choreographed (hopefully, anyway, for safety) but some movies make you feel like the plot is filled with eye-roll-inducing deus ex machina and some fights belie their artificial nature.
@@ghr8184 Dude, I have zero clue how you can complain about the prequels feeling "pre-planned and balletic" in one paragraph, just to praise Achilles v. Hector in another. It's the same kind of fight choreography. Brad Pitt literally twirled a spear around him and jumped around Eric Bana. And before you start, no, that is not a criticism of Troy's fight choreography.
If this is the best explanation you or anyone else can come up with, I'm not taking this argument seriously anymore. What you have is a selective suspension of disbelief. I don't know why. I don't care. It isn't rational, and you try conflating it with legitimately badly done choreography to justify it.
The "Maul vs Obi-Wan" duel In "Rebels" was soooooo good because you see Obi-Wan finding Maul's Shatter Point.
It brings back the first Duel they both had how Maul killed Qui-Gonn. The difference was Obi-Wan had grown past that, but Maul was still the same person deep down inside.
Maul literately tried the exact same move he used to kill Qui-Gonn, but Obi-Wan saw it coming & countered it easily. Maul tried to knock his saber to the side, hit him in the head with his hilt, & stab him in the torso like he did to Qui-Gonn. Obi-Wan just waited until Maul dropped his guard by attacking with his hilt, & cut straight through his lightsaber.
i 100% noticed the one dude just throw his weapon for no reason
I remember watching a video showing comparing the duels from the Prequels to the sequels
From the serious lack of Training you can tell was given to the Sequel trilogy cast compared to the Prequel trilogy having numerous months of Training,from the lack of flair and agility or flips,to the lack of force powers mixed with the lightsaber dueling.
Something i feel the Prequels got major Flack on only to get its due later on was with the choreography. Alot of people considered it unrealistic or too overchoreographed but I saw it as George highlighting not only how the Jedi were the "PEACEKEEPERS OF THEIR TIME" but also the fact that they are ALL practically Superhuman due to the Force.
They shouldn't be moving realistically or seemingly bound by regular human movement limits. They should be fast enough to dodge blasters,and the ability to maneuver laser beams.
The prequels are literally the only context in which I have ever heard the "over choreographed" argument used in. Matrix movies, John Wick films, the Raid movies, all the old kung fu films, every other movie sword fight, every single fist fight in every single superhero movie ever...nothing. It's only the prequels that are somehow over choreographed.
They are not dueling, they are dancing
What they can do is mix the use of LED sabers and lighter sabers in filming. Use the thin sticks for wider and longer shots that focus on style and dynamism. Then switch them with the lit up handhelds for close ups and character moments, like when we see the main actors instead of their stunt counterparts.
Ive seen multiple people say TLJ is worth it for the throne room fight. Thats how smooth brain's react to any lightsaber combat. Even if its god awful.
One of things that stood out to me about of the finale of Ahsoka was has bad the fight scenes were, especially the duel between Ahsoka and Elsbeth. Ahsoka was moving much slower and was obviously stiff compared to Elsbeth. So when Ahsoka wins the fight, you don't believe it. The finale was a let down for many reasons, but that part what really bad.
The worst fight to be is Rey v Kylo when they’re on the destroyed Death Star in Rise of Skywalker. It was just slow and anticlimactic and I could only think, how is a piece of the Death Star even here when both literally blow up to bits
It’s not that the Throne Room fight has mistakes, it’s that the mistakes are very noticeable, there are a lot, and even the film makers noticed them.
When I first saw it in theaters I was excited during the fight, but when I left the theater I started to feel that stuff about the whole movie was weird. Later when I could watch it again at home I started finding parts about the Throne Room that weren’t right. It started to feel more like a fight in an amateur play than something serious. And I’ve seen all the fights multiple times and it’s still the only one that feels very wrong.
The lightsabers are WAY TOO HEAVY. Drives me crazy.
I actually think Ahsoka's first fight with Baylan is really good. It's a shame that their follow up fight isn't anywhere near as good, but it is what it is.
I will say that Adam Driver nailed all of Kylo’s lightsaber choreography and made that shit look good.
The Acolyte has two of the best saber duels not sure why that was omitted
Because this channel has gotten so high and mighty and almost never takes the time to appreciate the good. It’s fallen quite hard for the easy clicks of negativity.
@ shame
@@jimnicholls5215or that it’s just not considered canon in they eyes of those who care about the franchise. They broke the universe of Star Wars with that show if you do consider it. With that said, cool, there’s few good things about it. Doesn’t mean it should be on this list
The Acolyte, overloaded with problems, nevertheless had some great fight choreography and light saber duels, occasionally even being actually innovative - without breaking canon…well, light saber canon, anyway.
@ lightsaber canon doesn’t allow 90% of what the show represented unfortunately. I understand innovative, and there was a little bit that made sense, but I’ve seen fan films with good choreography. Doesn’t make it canon, and sure as shit didn’t cost a hundred million
I like to believe that in the originals and the sequels, the jedi to be aren’t being trained by Warriors. They’re being trained by old people. Rey, Kylo and even Finn aren’t warriors like Obi and Anakin. Compared to them, the newbies are just that, newbies. so seeing them swing without a purpose makes sense. but i wish the prequel style was kept
I didn't really notice the Disney Sequel era's lack of green blades until you pointed it out here, and now I know it will haunt me every time I rewatch Last Jedi.
This is Jedi Consular erasure, and I will not stand for it. 😡
gonna push back against a couple of things:
while i do think luke using his own saber would have looked nice and fixed the color diversity issue the sequels had, i actually love that luke uses anakin's saber. it's a taunt. the saber that kylo couldn't get his grubby mitts on. i also love that luke doesn't KNOW the saber got split in half, and kylo is too fucking angry to piece together the fact that it has.
i also genuinely think i would have been insulted if they had sheev swirling lightsabers around AGAIN. it was bad enough in the prequels and clone wars, but having him swing a laser sword AFTER he brushes off luke's lightsaber as just a "jedi weapon" just seems like adding EVEN MORE insult to palatine's character.
The Obi-Wan/Vader fight is easily better than any duel in the sequels. Luke showing up in the Mandalorian season 2 finale is easily the best moment in Disney Star Wars! Second maybe to the Vader hallway fight!
I absolutely love the force awakens fight, love the lighting the storytelling and the choreography. The implementation of heavier LED sabers really works for that scene, everyone is inexperienced and tired and it’s a night time. but I really don’t understand why they were adamant to use the LED sabers for any other fight, none of the others used the light the same way.
There's no reason the sequels needed those real sabers after the starkiller base duel. If the scene doesn't benefit from the practical lighting they provide, then they only serve to slow the actors down.
Literally EVERY “duel” in the Obiwan show was the worst. Yes! Even the “Rematch of the Century”
All of them are very POORLY choreographed, the special effects were trash (there isn’t even a hole for the blade to come out in the anakin training duel), Reva is annoying af, the writing is atrocious (making it nearly impossible to take it seriously), and OMG the Annoying shaky cam. Overall they’re all just unwatchable.
You can tell that they literally did NOT EVEN TRY At all.
Yeah the sequel duels we’re also bad (Hell TLJ didn’t even have a duel and TROS had the same problems as the Obiwan duels), but at the very least they were visually stunning and looked cool, something I can’t say for the Obiwan show. (Even if they literally made no sense).