I totally agree with you 1000%. I’ve been training in Wing Chun for 7yrs now. I am always adapting. It should evolve. The greatest power to all species is their ability to adapt. The same goes for Wing Chun and all martial arts
Sifu Arenda I agree with you completely that we should definitely improve the adaptability of our Wing Chun. The positioning of our hands should be based on our opponent fighting guard. In order for Wing Chun to go further into the future and not become Extinct it needs to Evolve to survive in its Practicality in street fighting. Be safe 🙏
I complitely agree with your position. Wing Chun must evolve, simply by the fact that nowadays we have to face with a different situation with respect to 300 years ago (do we had Mma fighters 300 years ago...?). Also the guard must be changed according to different opponents and fighiting’s situations
I agree 100%👊^^✋ to maintain a tradition well still evolving. Its best to keep to guide lines^^ as guid lines hold principle^^ from here it just comes down to dedication.training.knowledge&understanding. My mum& grandpa taught me that the stance is used to help u understand center line theory^^ not to even stand like this. Best guard is to protect ur face. Hands up. Best way to protect is to intercept and attack. Also great vid👊^^✋
Totally in agreement with you, I have seen according to history that ip man is one of the pioneers in accepting the evolution of wing chun, that brought him problems with other families, but he worked on what he believed was best for Wing chun. Something curious is that when ip ching and ip chun perform chum kiu, one of them does an uppercut, and the other brother does soto uke in his movements. As you said combat strategies should be based on strengths and weaknesses, all martial arts evolve, wing chun is no exception. Excellent video, thank you.
What got me the ability to use my wing chun was doing sayoc kali and Isshin Ryu in University. Boxing has evolved, because of the rules and equipment. Essentially you were allowed to use Greco-Roman Wrestling techniques in early boxing then the throws and strangles were removed, but still allowed holding and hitting, then that was made illegal and bigger gloves made infighting and trapping more important now they allow more on the referee to manage the infighting and clinch.
As long as the principles are intact you can express it in many ways.A wise old man once said "Just because you stick to a principle doesn't mean it shouldn't allow changes."
I got into wing chun when I was younger my uncle was a Sifu so I had no choice. Before covid I started training Wing Chun again along with Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian Jiu jitsu my wing Chun background has helped me pick up JKD quickly. I've also become a fan of the videos of Wing Chun SiFu and BJJ black belt Dr Mark Phillips, I've sort of become a fan of the idea that is tradition actually that important? or is learning the skills you have to ensure you will get home?
I see lots of Wing Chun blocking hands in boxing ... Mayweather's shoulder roll is a version of Kuan sau (bong + tan), his dirty boxing forearm head control is a version of lan sau, Lomachenko does a downward pull on shelled up guard to create opening is a version of jut sau, MMA wrestling dirty boxing has lots of techniques in line with Wing Chun principles push and pull disrupting balance while striking... the principles are universal.
Wing Chun is provides a foundation of technique to grow on, but its the concept that matters, which is speed and efficiency. So in my opinion if a hook at a giving moment becomes more efficient, because you can actually hit the target, when a center line straight punch gets blocked, then the hook while not being as close; however with it connecting makes it more efficient and therefor wing chun. Which is the clear evolution of any martial art.
One must adapt and evolve or it won't last. Bruce Lee's JKD has Wing Chun roots. His Wing Chun involved to JKD. All martial arts share the same principles, only their training methods are different. Like Bruce Lee says, we all have two arms and two legs, so how can we fight any different. Duncan Leoung was my Sifu as well. I was his student back in 1991.
As a lot of street fights end up on the ground (a majority of the time) then some form of grappling e.g. BJJ techniques could be learnt. Not as a part of Trad training, but as a personal adjunct to potentially round out ones skill sets. Even a tad of boxing training, head-movement etc may be a useful additional tool for some who's W.C. skills are not going to fully get the job done. Just my two cents worth. #wingchun #ultimatemartialarts
@Pedro Elefante It appears you are right. But it leave roughly 30+ percent to contend with. A third ! That is a significant amount. rollingaroundbjj.com/fights-end-up-on-ground/
A lot of people have been taken in by this so called fact. The Gracies and the UFC franchise repeated it enough that it became ‘a fact’. I realise that you’ve researched it now, but thought that you might like to know where it originated.
The people willing to push and refine their martial art are, ironically, the one's who are truly keeping the tradition alive. The people who want to keep everything exactly the same are like museum caretakers.
I agree with you Sifu a 100% Only have a question. When you say wing Chun should evolve, do you refer only to the position and new ways of training or also new techniques and combo to be added or to modified?
Hi Tomas, I’m referring to perfecting the basics, adding new combos and ways of training using the same techniques, principles and theory. Take care! Sifu
I honestly don't think all of wing chun has been revealed. I think that the majority of practitioners don't practice how it's supposed to be. Due to the cultural revolution & other events, real martial arts almost died out, including wing chun. I think a lot of people have the correct individual parts but I think almost no one puts them together correctly. Another channel (which I won't mention) points out that the double jum sao position from the SLT form is the correct ready stance & it makes a great deal of sense. The double jum sao looks like the interview position of some modern self defense systems & is very difficult to penetrate if one has a modicum of practice with it. It acts like a sentry that can pick off straight shots as well as round with little movement. So in order to make sense of this, think what wing chun was made for, self defense that was based off of the human body instead of the animal systems that came before it. Many people will hold there hands up as if to say, "I don't want trouble". Also, facing your opponent head to head does follow the principle of not fighting force with force. You're clashing when you do that. Wing chun does not clash, it seeks out weakness like water seeping into a crack. In order to do this in an altercation, one must move to the side or back of the aggressor so that they are open to attack yet has a difficult time attacking back. Therefore the moment an attack is imminent, one should blade off to the 1-3 O'clock position or the 9-11 O'clock position while keeping your front square to them. This keeps your centerline square to their motherline while their centerline is facing away from you. With the guard up, & blading off, you almost automatically bridge with your opponent.
Devils advocate: agree one needs to be aware of their guard when out in the open. But we want to be sure we don’t evolve to be a parody of kickboxing. Wing chun is a close range body sticking art it should evolve on how to bridge that gap against modern styles. Being a bridge based style in my opinion it is a advanced system not a beginners system. To close the gap and shutdown another style is an advanced skill. That explains why so much wing chun fights look like shit. Boxers have disdain for wing chunners because a. They lack power under pressure and b. They have shit footwork.
I don't think Wing Chun should evolve. It's fine to call it a traditional martial art and to describe it as the way Yip Man fought and the way Bruce Lee learned to fight. People will still study it for its authenticity. I think it's possible to add your own flavor to it with your own exercises, as Wong Sheung Leung did when he put those giant crash pads against the walls. But because there isn't an arena to try new things, it's really impossible for Wing Chun to evolve in a way that guarantees combat effectiveness. There's no sports competition, and therefore no competitive arena which could help people discard bad techniques and elevate good techniques. In MMA, for example, it was once considered really bad to be on the ground on your back with your back towards the cage. Many people thought the match was over once a person was pressed against the cage in a prone position. Then someone invented "wall walking," and suddenly it wasn't so bad. MMA evolved. Jigoro Kano was losing in the gym against a big Japanese dude, so he adopted the "fireman's carry" from wrestling, called it "kata guruma," and a new technique was born. Years later, when it became illegal to grab the leg, people invented the modified kata guruma, which relies exclusively on the arm pull. Judo evolved. In BJJ years ago, a prominent athlete got injured and couldn't do full guard. That athlete, Gordo, suddenly realized how much potential existed in half guard. Suddenly everyone started playing half guard. BJJ evolved. I don't think a martial art can evolve in a good way if there's no arena for testing techniques. I think Sifu Duncan's Wing Chun is combat effective as it is right now against regular people in a surprise street encounter. But if you're going to change your guard against a strong kicker, or a boxer, or whatever, I think you need a mechanism for testing your techniques against these strong fighters. Otherwise it's all theoretical.
Every martial arts was reinvented by whoever the head of the style was.Martial arts was never turned into a particular system with dogmatic rules until greedy instructors figured out this is a way to keep students and promote themselves to some ridiculous rank and claim they invented some kind of new way of fighting.Its all bullshit.There was a time when martial arts was used strictly as self defense and i don’t think anyone during those times was concerned were a technique came from or who discovered it as long as it could save their life in a fight.Thats another reason why a lot of peoples trained in secrecy to prevent others from steeling their techniques and using it against them.So this stupid notion of martial artist that persists to this day that we dont do this and we dont do that all you have to see is how most martial artist feared in the early stages of the ufc because they dint know how to grapple.
Learn the basics, the core principles. Too much change and you change the art form. Usually for the worse. JuJutsu went from a beautifully traditional Japanese martial art and lifestyle to mud wrestling without the mud. PLEASE. These art forms were developed over many years of refinement by cultures that most people do not understand. If you want to 'evolve', do what Bruce Lee did. Give it a different name.
I’m aware of the Gwai Mah stance, it’s a very common stance in many Kung fu systems. If you prefer to drop your knee and punch your opponent (instead of using a kick) and feel like you’re not going against the Wing Chun centreline theory (shortest distance). Then suit yourself.
the issues are not "evolve", the single issue lies in 99.99% teach/learn subset of wc. Any wc school bearing a last name, like Wong, Cho, Yip, Cheung, Lee, Moy,, Kwok...or using labels such as Practical, Tranditional ...yada yada as a qualifiers/identifiers are all heading away from what wc is all about. Few realize and care to find out the parentage of wc, not able to discern platform level vs implementation level known as "style". I learned proper English from the Jesuits, but I m not speaking Father Bianca's English, I am speaking simply English. WC came from the platform parents, each consists of inherited theories, axioms and dita, few care to look at these 300+ principles....and most coming up with ...say Tan Sau de jour, bong sau of the week, some even gave this good thing a good face-lift.......enough said for this 70 years old !
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I totally agree with you 1000%. I’ve been training in Wing Chun for 7yrs now. I am always adapting. It should evolve. The greatest power to all species is their ability to adapt. The same goes for Wing Chun and all martial arts
Sifu Arenda I agree with you completely that we should definitely improve the adaptability of our Wing Chun. The positioning of our hands should be based on our opponent fighting guard. In order for Wing Chun to go further into the future and not become Extinct it needs to Evolve to survive in its Practicality in street fighting. Be safe 🙏
I complitely agree with your position. Wing Chun must evolve, simply by the fact that nowadays we have to face with a different situation with respect to 300 years ago (do we had Mma fighters 300 years ago...?). Also the guard must be changed according to different opponents and fighiting’s situations
I agree 100%👊^^✋ to maintain a tradition well still evolving. Its best to keep to guide lines^^ as guid lines hold principle^^ from here it just comes down to dedication.training.knowledge&understanding. My mum& grandpa taught me that the stance is used to help u understand center line theory^^ not to even stand like this. Best guard is to protect ur face. Hands up. Best way to protect is to intercept and attack. Also great vid👊^^✋
Agreed. Things should change as outside forces change.
Totally in agreement with you, I have seen according to history that ip man is one of the pioneers in accepting the evolution of wing chun, that brought him problems with other families, but he worked on what he believed was best for Wing chun. Something curious is that when ip ching and ip chun perform chum kiu, one of them does an uppercut, and the other brother does soto uke in his movements. As you said combat strategies should be based on strengths and weaknesses, all martial arts evolve, wing chun is no exception. Excellent video, thank you.
What got me the ability to use my wing chun was doing sayoc kali and Isshin Ryu in University. Boxing has evolved, because of the rules and equipment. Essentially you were allowed to use Greco-Roman Wrestling techniques in early boxing then the throws and strangles were removed, but still allowed holding and hitting, then that was made illegal and bigger gloves made infighting and trapping more important now they allow more on the referee to manage the infighting and clinch.
As long as the principles are intact you can express it in many ways.A wise old man once said "Just because you stick to a principle doesn't mean it shouldn't allow changes."
Yes, I agree ! Hand position covering face in ready position during the approach or as defence reaction is very good practice.
100% spot on
I agree, we should also change
Different positions for different situations and ... different intentions.
100% agree
I got into wing chun when I was younger my uncle was a Sifu so I had no choice. Before covid I started training Wing Chun again along with Jeet Kune Do and Brazilian Jiu jitsu my wing Chun background has helped me pick up JKD quickly. I've also become a fan of the videos of Wing Chun SiFu and BJJ black belt Dr Mark Phillips, I've sort of become a fan of the idea that is tradition actually that important? or is learning the skills you have to ensure you will get home?
I agree with you. Very nice put. Thank you.
The only reason you have Wing Chun is because someone's thinking and fighting evolved.
I see lots of Wing Chun blocking hands in boxing ... Mayweather's shoulder roll is a version of Kuan sau (bong + tan), his dirty boxing forearm head control is a version of lan sau, Lomachenko does a downward pull on shelled up guard to create opening is a version of jut sau, MMA wrestling dirty boxing has lots of techniques in line with Wing Chun principles push and pull disrupting balance while striking... the principles are universal.
Wing Chun is provides a foundation of technique to grow on, but its the concept that matters, which is speed and efficiency. So in my opinion if a hook at a giving moment becomes more efficient, because you can actually hit the target, when a center line straight punch gets blocked, then the hook while not being as close; however with it connecting makes it more efficient and therefor wing chun. Which is the clear evolution of any martial art.
As a hook is a staple of Applied Wing Chun there is no inconsistency.
One must adapt and evolve or it won't last. Bruce Lee's JKD has Wing Chun roots. His Wing Chun involved to JKD. All martial arts share the same principles, only their training methods are different. Like Bruce Lee says, we all have two arms and two legs, so how can we fight any different. Duncan Leoung was my Sifu as well. I was his student back in 1991.
As a lot of street fights end up on the ground (a majority of the time) then some form of grappling e.g. BJJ techniques could be learnt. Not as a part of Trad training, but as a personal adjunct to potentially round out ones skill sets. Even a tad of boxing training, head-movement etc may be a useful additional tool for some who's W.C. skills are not going to fully get the job done. Just my two cents worth. #wingchun #ultimatemartialarts
@Pedro Elefante It appears you are right. But it leave roughly 30+ percent to contend with. A third ! That is a significant amount. rollingaroundbjj.com/fights-end-up-on-ground/
A lot of people have been taken in by this so called fact. The Gracies and the UFC franchise repeated it enough that it became ‘a fact’. I realise that you’ve researched it now, but thought that you might like to know where it originated.
The people willing to push and refine their martial art are, ironically, the one's who are truly keeping the tradition alive. The people who want to keep everything exactly the same are like museum caretakers.
Boxing evolved due changes in rules & the addition of gloves. Without gloves, the old pugilistic style is superior.
I agree with you Sifu a 100%
Only have a question. When you say wing Chun should evolve, do you refer only to the position and new ways of training or also new techniques and combo to be added or to modified?
Hi Tomas,
I’m referring to perfecting the basics, adding new combos and ways of training using the same techniques, principles and theory.
Take care!
Sifu
I honestly don't think all of wing chun has been revealed. I think that the majority of practitioners don't practice how it's supposed to be. Due to the cultural revolution & other events, real martial arts almost died out, including wing chun. I think a lot of people have the correct individual parts but I think almost no one puts them together correctly.
Another channel (which I won't mention) points out that the double jum sao position from the SLT form is the correct ready stance & it makes a great deal of sense.
The double jum sao looks like the interview position of some modern self defense systems & is very difficult to penetrate if one has a modicum of practice with it. It acts like a sentry that can pick off straight shots as well as round with little movement.
So in order to make sense of this, think what wing chun was made for, self defense that was based off of the human body instead of the animal systems that came before it.
Many people will hold there hands up as if to say, "I don't want trouble".
Also, facing your opponent head to head does follow the principle of not fighting force with force. You're clashing when you do that. Wing chun does not clash, it seeks out weakness like water seeping into a crack. In order to do this in an altercation, one must move to the side or back of the aggressor so that they are open to attack yet has a difficult time attacking back.
Therefore the moment an attack is imminent, one should blade off to the 1-3 O'clock position or the 9-11 O'clock position while keeping your front square to them. This keeps your centerline square to their motherline while their centerline is facing away from you.
With the guard up, & blading off, you almost automatically bridge with your opponent.
I want to know your Wing Chun genealogy.
Pain Killer Ip Man - Duncan Leung - myself
Devils advocate: agree one needs to be aware of their guard when out in the open. But we want to be sure we don’t evolve to be a parody of kickboxing. Wing chun is a close range body sticking art it should evolve on how to bridge that gap against modern styles. Being a bridge based style in my opinion it is a advanced system not a beginners system. To close the gap and shutdown another style is an advanced skill. That explains why so much wing chun fights look like shit. Boxers have disdain for wing chunners because a. They lack power under pressure and b. They have shit footwork.
I don't think Wing Chun should evolve. It's fine to call it a traditional martial art and to describe it as the way Yip Man fought and the way Bruce Lee learned to fight. People will still study it for its authenticity. I think it's possible to add your own flavor to it with your own exercises, as Wong Sheung Leung did when he put those giant crash pads against the walls. But because there isn't an arena to try new things, it's really impossible for Wing Chun to evolve in a way that guarantees combat effectiveness. There's no sports competition, and therefore no competitive arena which could help people discard bad techniques and elevate good techniques.
In MMA, for example, it was once considered really bad to be on the ground on your back with your back towards the cage. Many people thought the match was over once a person was pressed against the cage in a prone position. Then someone invented "wall walking," and suddenly it wasn't so bad. MMA evolved.
Jigoro Kano was losing in the gym against a big Japanese dude, so he adopted the "fireman's carry" from wrestling, called it "kata guruma," and a new technique was born. Years later, when it became illegal to grab the leg, people invented the modified kata guruma, which relies exclusively on the arm pull. Judo evolved.
In BJJ years ago, a prominent athlete got injured and couldn't do full guard. That athlete, Gordo, suddenly realized how much potential existed in half guard. Suddenly everyone started playing half guard. BJJ evolved.
I don't think a martial art can evolve in a good way if there's no arena for testing techniques. I think Sifu Duncan's Wing Chun is combat effective as it is right now against regular people in a surprise street encounter. But if you're going to change your guard against a strong kicker, or a boxer, or whatever, I think you need a mechanism for testing your techniques against these strong fighters. Otherwise it's all theoretical.
Every martial arts was reinvented by whoever the head of the style was.Martial arts was never turned into a particular system with dogmatic rules until greedy instructors figured out this is a way to keep students and promote themselves to some ridiculous rank and claim they invented some kind of new way of fighting.Its all bullshit.There was a time when martial arts was used strictly as self defense and i don’t think anyone during those times was concerned were a technique came from or who discovered it as long as it could save their life in a fight.Thats another reason why a lot of peoples trained in secrecy to prevent others from steeling their techniques and using it against them.So this stupid notion of martial artist that persists to this day that we dont do this and we dont do that all you have to see is how most martial artist feared in the early stages of the ufc because they dint know how to grapple.
Learn the basics, the core principles.
Too much change and you change the art form.
Usually for the worse.
JuJutsu went from a beautifully traditional Japanese martial art and lifestyle to mud wrestling without the mud.
PLEASE.
These art forms were developed over many years of refinement by cultures that most people do not understand.
If you want to 'evolve', do what Bruce Lee did. Give it a different name.
that guard is stupid I dont use it , it telegraphs ur intention , keep what is useful , throw away that which isnt
Wing Chun has a Kneeling Stance called a Gwai Mah. So what Donnie Yen in that movie IS Wing Chun.
I’m aware of the Gwai Mah stance, it’s a very common stance in many Kung fu systems.
If you prefer to drop your knee and punch your opponent (instead of using a kick) and feel like you’re not going against the Wing Chun centreline theory (shortest distance). Then suit yourself.
the issues are not "evolve", the single issue lies in 99.99% teach/learn subset of wc. Any wc school bearing a last name, like Wong, Cho, Yip, Cheung, Lee, Moy,, Kwok...or using labels such as Practical, Tranditional ...yada yada as a qualifiers/identifiers are all heading away from what wc is all about. Few realize and care to find out the parentage of wc, not able to discern platform level vs implementation level known as "style". I learned proper English from the Jesuits, but I m not speaking Father Bianca's English, I am speaking simply English. WC came from the platform parents, each consists of inherited theories, axioms and dita, few care to look at these 300+ principles....and most coming up with ...say Tan Sau de jour, bong sau of the week, some even gave this good thing a good face-lift.......enough said for this 70 years old !