Is Social Media Ruining Comics?
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- Опубликовано: 7 ноя 2024
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The only people who complain MORE about comics than comic readers are people who don't read the comics.
It's so funny how true this is.
This is so damn true smh lol
RUclipsrs that don't read the comics that try and get clicks with hate is the biggest group or my algorithm is completely messed up
Facts, I have so many “comic” twitter accounts muted because they’re usually posting out of context panels and a complaint. Like all their posts are mainly criticisms because “engagement” no value to be seen.
its those people who watched comic shorts on tik tok, YT, they keep asking like "WHY" this, "why" that, "why ____ (insert) character got nerfed", "why Spider-Man suffer", "why writers make ____ character suffer", then processed to bring up reason why mangas are better (mangas are the same as comics no worse then, there are still pedo shits, sexualizing teenagers, but those so called fans dont care -_-) ,like dudes just read the damn comics, you will get the "WHY", and dont get me started on those who complain about art style, people want it to be japanese style googey big eyes, cuteness and shit, they want everything comic to be like that its so sad.
Outside of this show and the Discord, I really don't engage with comics social media anymore. I didn't make a conscious decision about it, but just realized one day I was good with this community, the books themselves, and some friends I have.
The one part of it that troubles me, that you guys discussed, is how it gives toxic people an open door to directly harass and abuse both creators and others in the fan community. And there's no way to reason with the people doing it, because they're 100% convinced they're in the right.
It's scary. I can't imagine the kind of garbage in, say, Gail Simone's inbox.
I’m sure there’s a lot of negativity out there, but I’ve been fortunate enough to curate a social media feed that is really positive.
Near Mint Condition, Comics Are Dope, Comics Report, Comic Tropes, and of course Comics Pals are the foundation of my feed, and they’re all loving comics and happy to talk about how great they are.
Those are definitely great spaces for comics discussion, and I'm happy you include us among them!
I’m in a similar place, I just ignore a lot of the people hating just to hate and watch similar creators who don’t waste their energy on hating and rage bate
Totally agreed on the RUclips front.
Social media has generally been bad for discourse on all fronts. It feels like almost every facet of culture is now about some kind of tribal-identity-signaling. You can dodge the nut-jobs, as I have with mine, but the toxicity that permeates social media tends to be the stuff that is most sensational, and hits the most eyes. Algorithms have an incentive to promote that for ad revenue and further engagement.
The incentives need to change for the multi-billion-dollar social media corporations, for the kinds of content that thrive on it to change too.
Yeah you're on point with this. As a fan of Amazing Spider-Man, let me tell you how fun it's been to go on social for the last couple years and see nothing but vitriol about the book. Real fun.
Great discussion, guys!
I think the main problem about this is that some comics I like to read or would like to read get cancelled early or don't even get made because people are discouraged from reading them on social media.
Whenever an online comic space gets too large like Twitter it goes to crap. Smaller spaces with good moderation usually have very interesting discussion. There are many discords including the Comic Pals one, and the app League of Comic Geeks, where I feel satisfied with the conversation. I’m also not afraid to have a hot take in these places because people have actual respect
Yeah and sadly those spaces are becoming harder to find as places for adults to converse on the internet continue to be consolidated around a handful of sites. I'm glad you feel safe on our Discord, it's our biggest goal that we can have reasonable and respectful conversation.
@@TheComicsPals yes I usually just lurk but the conversation are always high quality
During Secret Empire, discourse over Not My Captain America was so late that I had my non-Comic Book Reader Friends either asking me if it was true or raging over how they could do such a thing to a beloved (MCU) character?! And I believed that was largely due to social media.
That's the closest to the type of reaction Death of Superman got that I've ever experienced, when my non-English speaking aunt asked me about that.
But, to a point of the video, it was a lot of people who don't read comic books judging them.
And I feel that this also negatively affected the Netflix Iron Fist (but positively affected Netflix Luke Cage), but I begin to digress (to maybe being more MCU-centric)...
Yeah I completely agree about the the reaction to Secret Empire. So much of the overreaction was from people who don’t read comics, and they exposed themselves as non readers because they thought it was really OUR Captain America.
Pop culture imprint has given the non-comic public (normies) a stake in the characters (re: Captain America, Batman, Spider-Man, Superman, Joker, Iron Man, and so on). I had Spider-Man underwear at a very young age before I ever read a single comic.
I had strong opinions on Batgirl, myself, growing up mainly based on my exposure to her via reruns of Batman 66 and also Batman the Animated Series. The DC comics I read at the time were more Green Lantern and Flash, and of course, Babs wasn't Batgirl then, so I as a teen, in turn didn't care. I wanted her to be as TV had leveraged the Batgirl IP. Is that right or wrong?
You see Batman in a costume you dislike, the colors don't match what you want, it could be a deal breaker. I bought 90s Catwoman comics simply because of her outfit. There's all sorts of reasons someone who is a comic reader will favor this book over that book. Non comic readers imo do not favor the format. THey'd rather tv, movies, or books.
My brother, not a comic reader, thinks GotG is the greatest comic book IP based on those 3 movies.
I do get my family comics each year for Christmas, so I do my part to get them some source material.
"Be good, be kind, be cool."
There it is, right there. Thanks to you ALL for another great -- and important -- discussion!
Thank YOU Dirk!
Really enjoyed this conversation. I don't use social media anymore for these reasons, I have a small group of friends on our community forum but that's as far as I'll go. The podcasts I do now are just for fun and I don't worry about numbers as much.
Yeah, outside of responding to comments on our channel, the only engagement I have with others about comics is through our Discord server. I have no interest in rolling in the muck as it were. Just do you!
I wonder if publishers learned enough about caving to public opinion from the Armageddon 2001 incident where DC tried to pivot too hard
I think the part of it is the change of writing through the years. Like ASM for example or the Bendis Superman run. If you have displeased people they got a platform to spew with
It's just unfortunate that people can't constructively discuss their grievances without getting into the vitriol and nastiness we see so frequently.
@@TheComicsPals Its the nature of the beast sadly. Its easier to spit venom than be sensible.
Ruining? No. Complicating. Yes.
Social Media is ruining any any all discourse. I literally just watched this mess between 2 star wars channels. Ive seen so much discourse in the DC/Marvel fandoms.
But there's still really good stuff out there (for example, present company).
Yeah the Star Wars fandom is a dumpster fire right now sadly. I'm glad you include us in the good stuff!
So I've been building up my collection from scratch after a long hiatus. I posted my unread trades on Reddit as kind of 'where do I start?' Largely people were nice, but there was that one guy who said something along the lines of "Pfffft typical, boring." So I responded with: "Okay, do you have any recommendations?" He didn't respond which has me thinking he was either trolling or didn't want to be judged himself.
I'm about post my recent haul on that subredditt. It's a bit eclectic and open to criticism. I feel like I got to get ready for a verbal fight
Hey dude, love what you love. Unabashedly. Don’t let anyone tell you what you like is wrong or boring or anything like that. If you want a place to talk comics where you don’t have to worry about that kind of garbage, join our Discord server. It’s a great community of people who love comics and respect people’s opinions about the stories we all love.
I agree that a lot of those being negative about comics are those that do not read them they may have at some point but no longer do and now are made that in there view the character is being portrayed differently to what they remember (does that make any sense?)
Social media has democratized opinions. I believe the saying goes, a comic got a letter back in the day, one letter, one opinion could represent 1,000 of the readership or some kind of percentage depending on readership. "This issue was good/so-so/it stinks" dismissing any one opinion is dangerous because it most likely does fall in line with other readership.
People have had cutting opinions on comics for as long as I can remember. Happened in comic stories, the letter page, on the playground in school, on the weekends talking comics with friends.
I remember people trashing Heros Reborn and Rob/Jim. I vividly remember people saying these books sucked the month they came out (F4/Cap America). That's when I kind of knew the shine was off the 'Image comic artist rockstars' going further into the later 90s. Further back, I remember one comic shop owner trashing Image books even as his customer base where buying them at crazy amounts, he'd recommend DC books in his back issue bins, but of course me and other teens wouldn't listen, we needed Emo Spawn doing nothing for issues after issues lol.
One of the most interesting things to me is how people sometimes talk as if social media MADE people worse/more rude or biting in their opinions. Does no one remember the world before Twitter?
Social Media ruins everything
Sure its like Spoilers for a movie. There is supposed limit to discussions that allow for a reader to have a more private experience that is enhanced by not over criticizing a media or just seeing it inside the experience itself. We gain allies to talk about the content with, at the cost a natural experience. The numbers increase but that's also coming with something else that its a flip of a coin if the discussion is helping the comic or not.
To be fair I don't think saying something negative is always wrong nor do I think we should 100% be cognizant of trying to help sell comics at all times, but there is a level of vitriol and tearing down that doesn't add anything of value to the discourse, and that's where I get frustrated.
I try to be a moderate about it. I think there's certainly a case to argue for the issue of self inserts and bad storytelling and art, but I agree that the conversation happens on both sides where it gets quite heated without any real appreciation for the book being discussed. I certainly don't really bother with social media these days because I don't think you're able to have a nuanced discussion on them - I actually miss the days of moderated forums.
I agree, I much preferred the forum days. I don’t mind people not enjoying this or that book, I just want to know that their reasoning is based in what actually happened in the book.
@@TheComicsPals Right exactly, and the worrying thing is that you can't even have that conversation on a place like reddit where you could *make* a long form argument, but Social Media has just conditioned people to make short, snappy responses in the endless quest for karma.
I feel we are getting to know a lot of inside stuff and sadly
It’s ruining legacy a little
Such as?
It is weird because reading comics is a very insular activity so your feelings are your own especially if you don't like something but when you have social media being like the best comic ever written the reader might feel annoyed (Like did we read the same comic) or defensive (Everyone likes it but me, so am i not getting it) which can lead to negative actions (posting some hate comments, ETC.), Positives (maybe give a comic a reread) or neutral (I don't like it so Im not buying/reading anymore and im not gonna have a reaction to anyone who says they do).
It's strange to feel the need to react strongly to someone feeling differently than you in any way. Like why care?
I feel like most of the time when I see people being negative it’s either stupid political reasons, or the character and story isn’t doing exactly what they want them to do.
When it comes to the quality of comics suffering from social media I think it’s possible. I’m sure a lot of writers don’t write characters being really evil or anything really bad because they fear people will come after them saying that they’re bad for writing a character who is bad. Don’t know if this happens that often, but I feel like it would with how I see people assume certain writers are what they write.
I can see that for sure. Being worried about blowback by having characters 'cross the line' in the mind of the reader. Marvel feels like it pulled way back from risky storytelling after Secret Empire.
When it comes to something like comics or sports or anything that i love an i spend my money or a big chunk of my time investing in then ill create an echo chamber of mostly positivity reactions. I like difference of opinions but you can tell if its coming from hate or just want to be a hot taker.
Yeah totally. We have to use our brains to separate out the people who just want to scream to be heard for clicks and money, from the people who are genuinely trying to engage in good faith.
I don't think social media is ruining comics but I do believe it has destroyed the chance of having a decent conversation.
I come to comic book channels for recommendations and to listen to good fun discussions. I think the NBA and more recently the WNBA have the most toxic fan bases on social media. The comic book and movie plus the video game spaces are not that far behind. Back before RUclips and social media the heated debates were just on internet forums and did not reach mainstream media. But now a fan can try to get a heated reaction out of Tom King or Kevin Durant.
You’re totally right and I like your NBA example because the toxicity is out of control. Especially the Caitlyn Clark hate. I miss the forum days a lot, but I get that experience still through our Discord server.
Social media ruins everything, god forbid you should like any star wars outside of the origin trilogy, omg, comics are the same, I will be a fair here though one thing, america i did not think was a good book, I checked out the book when it was coming out and I felt it was poorly drawn and written, it happens, and the book was cancelled, not the end of the world, doesn't affect me one way or the other. The way people are talking about absolute DC is gonna fail is gonna suck is sickening, it's not even out yet, but yet that's what social media has become
Yeah, being a fan of Star Wars is rough right now on social media. I wouldn't dream of taking part in that discourse. On the subject of America, it's completely okay to criticize a book and think something isn't good. I just feel like it crosses the line and gets vitriolic far too often.
@@TheComicsPals no doubt, I have been collecting for a little over 30 years now, still have a weekly pull list, I was around when spiderman 300 was still relatively new, back then the discourse was mostly the same, I can remember everyone hating what Peter David did with the hulk, bashing what was going on with X-Men, complaining about McFarlane/Larsen and the way spiderman was drawn etc, the difference was it was low key and mostly local, guess nothing has changed huh lol
You're free to like what you like but did you really need what you like to be star wars over getting your own sci-fi series aimed at you?
I find the problem is companies chasing the buzz and gimmicks rather than putting out different products aimed at different target audiences
If you want the bad conversation around star wars to go away then all you need to do is produce different products aimed at different groups
The old star wars universe ( the old comics ect. Ect.)
The new (shin) classic Star wars universe ( rebooted classic universe , with lower power levels)
And the Disneyfied bad y.a version that just has star wars aesthetics slapped on.
Then let the customer decide what they like most.
Twitter is the worst place for any fandom…Instagram I would say is the best. I stick to IG, and every time I go back to Twitter I’m immediately reminded why I left.
Why do you feel IG is the best?
@@TheComicsPals because I don’t have to go in the comments if I don’t want to. I can just enjoy the pictures and reels in my feed from like minded people. Once you get into a place where people share their opinions on anything is when the enjoyment diminishes. Places like Twitter is just one big echo chamber that doesn’t add any real value in my opinion. You can block and mute all the people you want, but because Twitter is built on engagement and anybody can have a blue check now you will always run to shitty people and ridiculous takes.
You are so right about that. I don’t use IG very much personally but what you’re saying makes a ton of sense.
Well I read comic books and I interact with comic social media I can say I can agree and disagree with bad as well because I see it from both sides yes social media kinda do ruin comments but just the fandom itself can also ruin comics as well. And yes a lot of the issues that's going on in comics Don't really have much to do with comments honestly and it kind of sucks but a lot of these issues if they're not addressed people aren't going to read them because the sales are definitely an employment there are way too many stores that use to sell comic books that are closing or get rid of them for other things it's a real problem that you know as much as we try to pretend like it doesn't exist there's a real issue that I really wish the comic book industry would fix. But instead they want to engage with the fandom and attack them which cause more division and more fighting online instead of fixing the problem.
There are a LOT of problems in comics. The thing is that 99% of them cannot be fixed by creators. So why in the world would anyone attack a creator over their problems with the industry overall?
@@TheComicsPals Well think about it if the creators don't fix the problem then why would the people who used to read comic books or why should people get invested in a comic books if you're not going to fix the problem because before 2010 we never really got attacked by the writers Yeah they might have said some moments or whatever but DC Marvel back in the past when they have real editors and executives would never allow the creators and artists to attack the fandom now they're allowing the artists and the creators to attack the fandom which creates the division then they're making decisions that retroactively break continuity or change a character around just for some diversity and inclusion points You can't keep changing these characters these books and attacking the fandom when they don't like your choices and then expect them to keep supporting your books like that weirdo with the red hair Kelly Sue Dickcon Said if you don't like my books don't buy them simple as that okay great when every creator says stuff like that guess what People take you up on that offer You can't constantly attack the fandom and then try to blame the fandom for the reason why things are going bad for the comic book industry. And that's what I'm saying see you're over here saying like oh what's the point The point is that if the audience is telling you they don't like something you don't double down on it You listen to them you have to take criticism That's the problem nowadays is that these companies think that they're not supposed to take criticism they think that they're not supposed to change They think that they're not supposed to make things that appeal to the majority not the minority audience and that's why the stores are losing out That's why people aren't interested in the comic books They are so why people are having arguments on these comic books that's why we have been in a golden era of comic book movies and all it did is diminish the sales of comic books how does that work what's the point So you making these comic book movies based on these comics but then you don't want to fix the comic books that people are engaged in You want to know how comic books got along all these years because they were passed down from generation to generation but if you keep turning off the fandom then he's comic books are worth nothing because now what are they doing they're jumping to the current era of comic books stories that are turning people off and have you not seen what the MCU and DC has done they jump to recent additions to the comic books the stuff that people said that they don't like but DC and marble decided to double down on it and now people are walking away That's a problem Yes you have to put that blame mostly on the creators executives artists at DC Marvel or whoever comic book industry because it is their fault because if they didn't open up their big mouths if they didn't think that they knew better than the fandom We wouldn't be in this mess because we've all had arguments before in comic books that's under nature but that we're getting to the point where the companies created this division and now they're stuck with it because they refuse to fix the problem because they don't want to apologize because they will have to admit they were wrong and now these companies are what they're combining they're selling off assets to try to survive but if you don't fix the problem you're going to continue to go down the same path. Eddie and you're going to make more videos saying the same thing but you got to put the blame on the creators the executives the artists at the comic book industry because it is their fault because if they didn't do these dumb changes if they didn't turn off the fan base if they didn't think they knew better we wouldn't be in this mess. Funny how comic books was doing better before the 2010s then they are now The sales are embarrassing to the point where you got independent people make a comic books that are out selling DC and Marvel That's a problem because they're not being in stores There are other people's websites which DC and Marvel and other comic books industries they want that money but they can't get it because they want to think that they can do whatever. But this will be around about thing over and over again the fact of the matter is until people put that blame on the comic industry and until the industry takes responsibility you will always have this.
I’m sorry but this comment is extremely long with no formatting. I cannot sit and read this this way.
Uh, no...forever storytelling imploded comic books. We want character growth, we want endings that make the journey something to reflect on, we want consequences. Younger people don't want to be doing homework of four or five other series to understand one story arch.
You speak for yourself. I was that younger person and I LOVED doing the "homework" you refer to, which is actually just reading comics.
Forever storytelling imploded comics? When did it change, because last I checked Batman and Superman, who were created in the 30's, have had stories told about them in perpetuity AND in continuity. So are you saying that comics have been ruined since then?
@@TheComicsPals …how much money do you think we got to spend when comics are $5, and digital new releases aren’t advertised on platforms by their own companies?? We’d rather buy a $7.99 to $12.99 manga volume that doesn’t preach to me some modern events (I’m not white or straight so the bigot argument is not valid) or shameful product placement (Avengers had Spider-Man literally reference Five-Guys burgers in the middle of an intergalactic battle). The fact the industry is pressuring QR codes hiding pages from physical books is a SCAM!!! The market is abusing its own fanbase.
Ah, so you addressed 0 of my points. Your argument is invalid, good day.
Comics are expensive, there's not many places to find comics, some people are outgrowing comics, there's more alternatives to comics etc these are some of the complaints paying customers have told me. None have complained about social media, social media just changes how people talk about comics, but it doesn't ruin the actual books. Yes, there are people who talk about comics without having read them but that happens in every fandom. Movies, games, whatever you’ll always have folks jumping in who aren’t fully informed. That's not ruining comics, it’s just part of being in a fanbase.
As for creators getting harassed no argument there, it sucks but that’s a broader problem with the internet in general, not just comics. Look at any industry, creators get backlash. It’s unfair to act like this is something new because of social media also and I'm not justifying any untoward behavior from anyone but a lot of creators have themelsevs behaved unethically, they helped create this hostile atmosphere because no standards of behavior were applied in interactions with consumers.
The point about no nuanced discussions is fair, but come on it’s Twitter. That platform’s built for short comments, not deep dives. There are plenty of other places where people can have actual conversations. Creators in every field have had to self-promote for decades. Social media just gives them a better way to do it. Lastly I hope that sentiment of being good, kind and cool is something you actually live by and not just a fake positive platitude meant to silence critics and subtly label them as being the opposite of the phrase.
Who was acting like it was something new? We were discussing the fact that it happens and it’s awful and there is MORE opportunity in the social media age for harassment and misbehavior than ever before, not that it never existed. Also, we’re discussing comics, so of course the scope of the discussion is limited to that, so I’m not sure what any other industry has to do with this one.
I’m also not sure why you called out the final statement of the video in that manner. Do your research into us if you want to know, but you’re bringing baggage into this comment that has nothing to do with us or the point of the video or anything, for that matter.
@@TheComicsPals I get that no one was acting like harassment is new, but the way it was framed in the video made it seem like social media was being blamed as the factor making things worse. social media definitely makes it easier for harassment to happen but this isn’t a problem that's unique to comics or even new. It happens across all industries and it's been around long before the rise of social media in light of that bringing up other industries wasn’t off topic it was to show that this issue wasn't exclusive to comics. When we're talking about something like harassment, it’s not just a comics issue. It’s an internet wide issue and limiting the conversation to just one scope kind of misses the bigger picture.
Regarding my comment about the final statement I don’t mince words and I don’t care for fake positivity. If something feels performative, I’m going to call it out. That’s just my way of being blunt and honest. You either stand for those values or you really don't. Either way don’t take it personally if it doesn’t apply let it fly, simple as that.
You just said “the way it was framed in the video made it seem like social media was being blamed as the factor for making things worse”. Your vey next sentence: “social media definitely makes it easier for harassment to happen.” Okay so you agree that social media made things worse.
And again, whether it’s happening in all industries or not is immaterial to the conversation about COMICS. I’m not making videos about the world, I’m making videos about comic books and our community, so obviously we’re going to speak to that and focus on that. I’m genuinely not sure why that’s not clicking.
My point was you could learn about us for yourself instead of making comments that don’t apply to us. It feels performative to you but you don’t know us at all.