Comics were not necessarily "better" 40-10 years ago. However there was a more consistent standard of content that felt more connected. In the 80's and 90's if you picked up a Marvel comic it would read and feel a certain way. There was the Marvel and DC style to comics. Now there is much wider feel, style or vibe to them
I can certainly agree to this and I feel they even as someone who started reading in the 2000’s. There is less cohesion throughout the respective big two universes.
I loved the flow & vibe of this convo. Y’all gained a new sub + notifications on + y’all have entered my top comic book youtubers list. My top 5 Marvel events (I’m 29 so there’s a lot I still haven’t gone back to read): 1. Not necessarily an event, but the entirety of Pete fighting Doc Ock -> Mindswap -> Superior Spider-Man -> Return of Peter Parker. There’s a lot of moments in that saga that made me feel for Octavius, a character I’d never cared much about until then 2. House of M 3. Annihilation, because it really got me into Silver Surfer 4. Spider-Men, because I wrote something extremely similar to it (conceptually) some months before on the Marvel forums back when you could post fan-fics. 5. Spider-Man: The Other, because it was the first event I collected in full & what got me to discover which comic shops I liked. My mom really went all out to make sure I got every issue of it that I could, and she was barely a superhero fan.
Thanks so much, really appreciate that you enjoyed our show so much! Not many go the extra mile of turning on notifications. I like your list, thanks for sharing it! We just read Annihilation for our Book Club. It was my first time reading it and I’ve been reading comics for 20 years 😂😂 Hope to keep seeing you around!
I wish there was an easy way to find data on this but I think its more of the quality is spread out so much more over multiple comic companies and genres. With that amount titles, people can't see all the quality because its not in their favorites (character, company etc.) We are probably near at all time high of number of comics titles being produced then any previous era and impacts peoples view. The cream usually rises to the top of sales but I do think there are "ceilings" for certain genre of comics and certain less recognized characters.
Yeah I agree completely. I wish I had made this point during the conversation but there is a ridiculous amount of comics being published, and a large majority of the ones I read are at least solid. And as most of you know, I pull a lot of books per week.
@@TheComicsPals I was trying to look up actual numbers in the 90s and one point I saw DC only had 23 books come out in one month. Marvel had somewhere in 40 range.
No, comics were objectively worse back then. Stories had zero thought put into them and all the debut comics of popular superheroes were objectively poorly written. The artist and the time period carried most of these comics. A lot of those OG runs were canceled about as quick as the same stuff comicsgate losers complain about.
Just got to the part that Comic Explained joined the podcast and this is AMAZING. Love Rob. As for my top 5 Marvel events: 5. Secret Wars (1984): This was my first event so it will always hold a special place in my heart. Yeah, it’s incredibly simple, but also incredibly novel at time and while it isn’t as good as Crisis on Infinite Earths (my favorite DC saga despite me being way more of a Marvel fan). 4. Civil War: For the longest time, up until Jonathan Hickman’s Avengers, I felt just like Rob still feels today: I couldn’t possibly think that nothing could ever top that saga. I still love it, but like many others, I feel like Jonathan Hickman and even more so Captain America: Civil War taught me that not only that I was much more in love with the IDEA of Civil War than what actually happened and how it happened. Captain America: Civil War rewired my brain and it was the first time that I truly understood that simply adapting comic books to a different medium shouldn’t be a thing and not only that, that it’s possible to take the philosophical premise of Civil War and actually elevate it for something better. I still love it, but it’s easily the saga that didn’t age well for me the more I think about it. So while it isn’t my favorite saga of all time any longer, I’m still in love with the premise, I just think that was the first time that the MCU took a famous Marvel saga and actually elevate it. 3. Spider-Verse: I see this as Dan Slott’s magnum opus, the best and more bombastic Spider-Man saga of all time and one of the most influential comic book sagas of all time. Spider-Island brought me back to Amazing Spider-Man after the seven stages of grief after One More Day and the Death of Spider-Man in Ultimate Spider-Man). It’s the saga that actually made me love Miles Morales as Spider-Man, one of the biggest love letters to Spider-Man and took storylines that I despised from the JMS’s era (Spider-Totem, Morlun, Web of Life, etc) and not only elevated, but made it make sense with the Spider-Man mythos. It made me a full blown Brand New Day believer and its influence can be felt in comic and pop culture to this day through the Spider-Verse films and I’d even dare to say the MCU as well. 2. Jim Starlin’s Infinity Saga: This is Marvel’s ACTUAL answer to Infinite Crisis on Infinite Earths, in my mind. Secret Wars was reactionary and an excuse to sell toys. But Infinity Saga, Infinity Saga is not only special and made something like Annihilation possible, but shaped what an actual cosmic saga should look like. I’d dare to say that this is the actual high that every Marvel event is trying to achieve, and one single saga was able to top it and at this point anyone could guess what’s my top 1. My point is that there is a reason why the MCU’s Infinity Saga adapted Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War and Infinity Crusade. It elevated Thanos as the biggest cosmic threat and actually made me more scared of him than any of Marvel villains, and I include all of them, even Doctor Doom. It’s Jim Starlin’s magnum opus and I don’t think we would be living in a world where Marvel dominated pop culture as much as it did without this one. So many iconic moments across this saga, it’s even hard for me to give it the top 2, the more I think about it. 1. Secret Wars (2015): Jonathan Hickman’s magnum opus. It should not work. It should just be yet another gimmick event, like the several times that Marvel tried to bring a version of Secret Wars back. And yet it’s in my opinion not only the best Marvel saga, but the best saga in mainstream comics of all time, so much so that it’s hard, very hard for me to connect with Avengers in comics to this day. Something about the lead up to Secret Wars and Jonathan Hickman interweaving his take on the Avengers and Fantastic Four culminating with Secret Wars gave this saga a whole different meaning. It cemented Jonathan Hickman as one of the best mainstream comic book writers not only of the 21st century, but of all time. It’s arguably my most reread saga and run of all time, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.
If Jim Shooter was running D.C. or Marvel comics, how many creators who didn't quit, would still be employed within the first month of his hiring?!!? LOL - he'd probably fire half of both companies
I like the wrestling comparison I was into it for a little bit between 93 and 95 then I became a hardcore fan from 96 until 2006. I don't feel the need to critique the current show my nephew is really into wrestling now from the toys to the video games. The 80's babies are becoming the old men that they used to despise 35 years ago😆. You have some basketball fans who claim that they stopped watching the NBA when Jordan retired but they can't stop talking about current players.
Yes exactly. People who have to constantly talk about how much better things were in their era are insufferable. And you know what? If you can get past your biases and nostalgia, you might even find that you’ve been missing some really good stuff along the way. There’s been a LOT of great basketball since Jordan’s day.
I decide when to drop a book when I realize it is sinking to the bottom of my pull list week to week or month to month. If I realize I'm not excited to read something I'll give it that most recent issue to redeem itself and then drop or keep it based on that reaction. I do think generally the quality of comics coming out right now is pretty high, though
I really dived deep In comics in the last 5 years an I still love it. But I've been reading the mid 2000s and I can see the difference. Especially when it has more Sexual scenes an Raunchy costumes and references. So from a guy that grew up watching the Attitude Era of wrestling, I love that kind of storytelling a bit better.
I think comics are comics. Though there are some modern troupes that annoy me. Inconsistent creative teams, I’d take nine issues a year from the same time, rather than 12 from different artists. Not committing to long runs. Every ten issues, we reboot to number one. Let’s try and aim for sixty issues. Stop celebrating “milestones” by increasing the price and adding pointless backups.
Judt wanna say this convo was awesome and i feel like i come out of every video with a better understanding of the comic industry. Now for the actual question i think its the same with every media or interest, expand your horizons and find something different, there is so much more than just marvel and dc.
Really glad to hear that Michael, thank you for sharing. I agree wholeheartedly; there’s far too many good things in media to be engaging with things you don’t like. It’s a weird thing to do.
Wednesday was always new comic book day until I stopped buying regularly around 2004, at what point did the dates change? During Covid lockdown? And at what point did it go back to Wednesday, what was the prior releases dates for new comics?
I disagree that good = sales. For instance, the box office for Transformers is infinitely high than the Godfather, but it’s self evident that the Godfather is better to virtually everybody. This makes it clear to me that when we think of “good” art we have some culturally shared ideas that don’t always align with financials. So many comics are designed to be inoffensive slop that 10 people will buy out of habit, but that doesn’t mean All Star Batman and Robin was better than the Walking Dead. In a perfect market the cream will always rise to the top, but we don’t live in a perfect market. We live in a market influenced by anti-intellectualism, habit, and primitive instincts that keep us from pursuing art we know is the best. And to be clear that im not a prude, I often prefer worse comics to better comics I could buy. There’s a lot more factors to a purchase decision than quality.
You're asking the wrong question. There's plenty of legitimate reasons to conclude quality is better or worse than decades ago, depending on what factors an individual prioritizes. It's a subjective, and ultimately, unhelpful debate. The more important questions should focus on sales, why are sales dwindling, and what can be done about it? Clearly, quality is a factor in that line of questioning. In short, the better question would be, "Are the current crop of creators and editors helping or hurting comic sales?"
I guess it depends on what you consider classic but I would say that’s ridiculous. Edit: I personally wouldn’t consider the 2000s “classic” that feels like last week to me. Regardless. Every company has its ups and downs. Just a couple years ago Marvel was really great. Chips DD, Cates Venom, Ewings Hulk, (some may disagree with the next one) Coates cap and of course his Black Panther . I think the problem is there is so much good stuff now that the bad really stands out. As opposed to in the 90s and 80s the good stuff stood out as great and the great is timeless
To expand on my point physical, tangible items can’t be beaten by digital. It’s soulless and devoid of human interaction I.e. at my LCS it’s about more than just getting my books, it’s the interactions I have, the sensory aspect (holding, smell etc). The print media market is like vinyl at the moment it’s hot! Booktok is huge!
I think it's as simple as growing older and interests change with time. With that comes a more narrow mind of today's books. Objectively books are better than ever and more are produced than ever before. Plus like what most people say is that what ever starting point got you into comics will always be your favorite era. To reiterate, it's people's growth over time that changes their interests without even realizing it. The bad part I would say is that people interpret that change as comics are the worse they have ever been. Of course there are outliers but for the most part there is good for every type of genre/character/setting and so on.
Yeah there’s no argument that I could really entertain that suggests comics are bad now. That just seems weird. Bad compared to when? Even if you think they’re not as good as your favorite era, there’s no way they’re BAD.
3:00 It's around this mark that Rob's point about digital fell apart. Sean is right. Whether digital or physical, you still have the same problem with some stories being too continuity heavy and/or just confusing.
Honestly It's hard to look at the whole of comics because of the number of independents coming out every month, and that number continues to rise. As far as quality goes, the state of comics is harder to guage now than ever, because even 5 years ago someone may be able to see a descent amount of the comics being released, but now very few if anyone sees enough of the industries books to know how good the industry is. I see maybe 10-20 indepenent books a month and I wish I could see more of them because many of them look dope as heck and have the dopest premises....
The thing is that there are way too many options to read books you don’t enjoy. It is possible to get an idea of the state of the industry if you use your wallet and brain in conjunction. I enjoy probably 85%-90% of the books I read, and the ones I don’t enjoy are typically books I read for the show or things I give a chance to. Anyone can do this.
Monica at this point is probably my favorite comic book of all time and it came out like a year ago. It’s truly a masterpiece and blows most old and current comics out of the water
While i don’t particularly love Amazing Spider-Man’s current run, I one hundred percent understand Sean’s sentiment on it and more, CLEARLY that book is beloved and the idea that people only buy it because they are completionists like several vocal comic book reviewers say is ludicrous. My favorite Amazing Spider-Man run of all time is Dan Slott’s Amazing Spider-Man, and that was plagued with online hate as well. And just like Sean, just because Sean loves Amazing Spider-Man current run and I’m not feeling it doesn’t mean that I don’t think that run should exist. I AM very much excited for Joe Kelly’s and Ed McGuiness’ Amazing Spider-Man run though. Spider-Man and Deadpool is an absolute gem and these two creators together is always gold. My point is: more people should be more chill with how they love or don’t love a comic book run. There are always a comic book for you, and I’m sick and tired of the Spider-Man fandom acting like aging and old disgruntled Star Wars fans with Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man exists and while I don’t like it as much as everyone else, it’s brilliant, so just get that. Spectacular Spider-Men has been giving me my Spider-Men fix for now and that’s completely fine. Also, love Sean’s rant against the racist bullshit.
TLDR: All New All Different Ghost Rider was a waste. Great talk. About the All New All Different phase of Marvel, I just want to talk about Ghost Rider. Ghost Rider had volume 1 about Johnny Blaze, and it was great . Then 1990 vol. 2 brings in Danny Ketch, and that sparks interest in Johnny Blaze, so we have two Ghost Rider books for a time. These books do well at first, but don’t make the cut when Marvel almost shuttered its doors in 1998. and you end up with three mini-series to test the waters for a Ghost Rider return, Hammer Lane 2002, Road To Damnation 2006 (by Ennis which was amazing), and Trail of Tears 2007 (also by Ennis and amazing). Road To Damnation did well so, they relaunch it with Way and Jason Aaron. This culminated with the Heaven’s on Fire story which is amazing. Ghost Rider is doing well. Only bad run they have had is that 2002 Hammer Lane. So, they relaunch the title and make Alejandra Jones the new Ghost Rider. I could write pages about everything they did in this series, but for every success they made huge blunders. The title ends, it is 3 years after Heaven’s on Fire where it feels like Ghost Rider is great and we are now 3 years past Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch being the main character in a Ghost Rider comic. Marvel announces All New All Different Ghost Rider and we get Robbie Reyes. The book starts off and doesn’t follow much of the preexisting Ghost Rider lore, and has Tradd Moore art that doesn’t fit the normal occult, supernatural, paranormal, and dark stories vibe that are in a Ghost Rider comic. Then in addition to Moore’s very bright splashy art, the stories felt like a cartoonish coming of age story, and not like Ghost Rider. It was like an edgy Spider-Man origin. The final story arc of the initial run has a very dark feel and finally feels like something out of Ghost Rider and it gave me hope, that this Ghost Rider would have a different feel, and finally has some momentum. Those who have read it know that when Robbie’s little brother dresses up like Ninja Wolf, there was fear in what happens next and I was finally hooked. Then they cancel after the next arc, do the Marvel thing relaunch, same writer to get a new number 1, but this time instead of about Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider it is about Robbie, X-23, and Cho Hulk. It sheds readers fast and gets canceled fast. It ends up 2019 before I have an ongoing monthly Ghost Rider to read about Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch. The worst thing is they have introduced 3 new Ghost Riders in that time if you count Cosmic Ghost Rider. Jones Ghost Rider is killed in a throw away tie in to Absolute Carnage. Robbie Reyes I would be interested in reading again as a guy who is trying to do the Spider-Man like thing and balance work, school, taking care of his little brother, and his constant fight against a spirit who wants to corrupt him. However, Jason Aaron then makes him an Avenger and he has been elevated to a place where we will never see them flesh out his character. He never developed the whole story on his own, and we can’t go back to him feeling like a more grounded “Friendly Neighborhood Ghost Rider”. He went from if I need to do this (hunt evil) I am gonna do it on my terms taking out the worst of the worst and keeping my brother safe. To I am earths mightiest hero. The initial story arcs made jokes about speed, and he became a joke about editorial speed, going from an up and coming superhero to Avengers tier before he established and audience and I feel no one will no this character in 15 years. So, I tell people I think Robbie Reyes was a wasted concept that disrupted Ghost Rider, and peoples gut reaction is like yours that maybe I am just an old man angry that things changed, when really I have been buying Ghost Rider comics for 30 years and had to experience a decade of them trying to replace characters, that will sell a mid-tier monthly title that I love, with two attempts they never followed through with. They can never go back to the Robbie Reyes origin and there is not enough character work to tell the next Robbie Reyes story, or at least without a very talented writer who is going to dedicate time to a character who will soon be forgotten.
@andrewduitsman3918: It sounds like they've done what DC and MARVEL have continued to do which is bring in so many new characters with the same name and mostly the same powers that it's diluted the original concept.
I wanted to respond to this for two reasons: one, I respect your loyalty to Ghost Rider! I think that’s awesome and I love the uniqueness of everyone’s list of favorites. I’ve never known anyone who loved GR as much as you do. Two, I do NOT think you’re just an old guy angry things changed. The point of this conversation was to try and bring nuance to the way we talk about comics. Everything you just described doesn’t read to me like a guy mad about change, it reads like a guy who has a connection and affection for a character that Marvel didn’t take care of and do right by. I can get behind that very easily. Your articulation and ability to pick out specific logical reasons for your argument is a far cry from what we were talking about with respect to people who can’t accept change.
@@TheComicsPals Thanks for the response. I apologize if my comment was to preachy. It was really hard around the time that one of my favorite books got replaced by new characters for almost decade. Not only did it lose the momentum from the previous run, but it also created this reoccurring conversation. Me, "man, the new Ghost Rider is kind of bad." Other people, "no it is so good, the Hell Charger is awesome." Me, "yes the car is cool, but are you reading the story? This was dumb, this was dumb...." Other people, "grumble grumble, you are an old man yelling at clouds." It felt like a book I love got hijacked and speculators happy for the idea of a new Ghost Rider who were not reading it, were attacking OG fans, because that was easier than defending Alejandra Jones as Ghost Rider, or the tonal shift with Robbie Reyes.
I always liken it to classic rock stations and the claim that music sucks these days too. Classic Rock stations get to cherry-pick the best stuff from previous eras. There’s so much crappy old music but you never hear it because why would anyone revisit that. There are so many crappy old comics. Everytime I read an old Steve Englehart comic and he brings out Mantis for no reason, I regret learning to read. But most people just get cherry pick the best stuff from the past, or stuff they have nostalgic appreciation for.
There's so much good music still coming out under the radar, I think a lot of old heads get off on the idea that they're the last generation to have good music. Even if you introduced them to new good stuff, some of them would be in such denial it'd be sad. Not all of them, I've seen some boomers still discovering cool music.
Nostalgia is a major factor for sure. A lot of them also have ulterior reasoning as to why they don’t like modern comics that have nothing to do with quality.
Everybody has there own natural attrition rate for the grind of weekly mainstream Marvel/DC comics. Getting yourself geared up again and again for the next climatic story and a new beginning. I peaked between 2003-2011 and then tried a bunch of times to get back to in the 2010s and now my pull list floats between 3-5 titles none of which are the usual big titles and I'm perfectly happy. But I don't attribute that to comics getting worse but I could see how people would confuse the two...though of course some people genuinely feel that way for reasons more logical than "not white guys write more of this now than they used to."
Certainly there are people like that and I hold a lot of space for that. When I spoke on how race and gender and age are a factor I’m talking about a very specific sort of reader.
If they mean only Marvel and DC, they should say that and not just act like the rest of the exciting stuff in the industry doesn't exist. And maybe they should read those, i'll never understand people who limit their own options then complain there's nothing good. Even at the big 2, there's still good writers and artists working for them. I think one issue that can be tough for creators at the big 2 to tackle is bringing fresh ideas with characters who've been around since the 40s. Can't be easy. Readers ask for something different, but they really dont want that. That's why they'd rather say comics suck now instead of discovering anything by the other publishers.
Yeah, most of the people who say that can’t seem to find one single thing they’ve enjoyed in mainstream comics in xx amount of years. If that’s the case, why still be engaged?
"A good comic will sell" is the same as "if it doesn't sell, it's a bad comic." A bad comic could still sell, and you can't use sales figures to determine if the comic is likely to be worth reading. "If it sells, then it's a good comic" is the same as "bad comics won't sell." A comic that isn't selling need not be bad. It could be good. Using sales figures to determine if a book is worth picking up is a good strategy, but you'd be missing out on some good comics.
A comic that isn’t selling isn’t necessarily bad, but there are more “bad” comics that don’t sell than good ones that don’t sell. Largely the cream rises to the top.
I agree that there Should be room for criticism, heck there should be room for down right hating certain comics or certain writing or art. But the problem is there are 2 types of people (CG and 50 old gate keepers) who will straight up blast modern comics non stop as a hobby/profession it seems. They both overlap and intersect in many ways and they have the same goals and aspirations, namely, go back to how things were in "classic era" of... not the 40s, 50s, 60s or 70s but, you guessed it, the 80s and 90s ! truth be told they make up a huge portion of the direct market and are the loudest voice on RUclips (not reddit or twitter? I think its a site-demographic thing?). you can easily differentiate between someone who genuinely has criticism of modern stories and a jaded cg/ cg-light person. like you guys, I am 2000s era kind of guy and I have been disliking modern comics (for various reasons) for a while. so I downsized my intake quite a bit. but ""nonstop"" whining and complaining about funny books and movies is not a good look on any man, let alone middle-aged fathers and family men.
Current day comics aren’t good because of many things. A good value for your comic book dollar is super important. If you don’t get a full story in one issue it’s frustrating. Even more so if there is no payoff when the larger story ends. If the story of the character “evolves”, as an editor, writer, creator, you have to respect the fans and the lore. If the fans don’t buy in, it’s up to the owner of the IP to course correct, not tell the reader “this story isn’t for you”. They shouldn’t be surprised when fans get mad that their favorite character is no longer recognizable. Fan is short for FANATIC. If you don’t get bent out of shape when the editors or writers or artists do THEIR version of the comic then you may not be a fan but just a casual reader. As a casual reader that can dip in and out of a comic you may be able to shrug it off but you are also probably not the die hard fan that buys EVERY issue of that one comic. And when your one comic is evolving into something unrecognizable to you and the editors and writers don’t course correct they shouldn’t be surprised that sales go down. Because the fan believed them when they told them, “this book is no longer for you.”
I agree insofar as sales will drop if fans feel alienated. That’s a good thing and it’s the knob that fans have to turn in order to show their feelings to editors and creators. That being said, while it’s sad to realize that something might not be for you anymore it’s not the end of the world. I love the Avengers, I pulled it for nearly 20 years straight. I do not enjoy the current run at all, so right now it’s not for me. There are a lot of books that are though so I read those. We’re all adults presumably, life does go on.
@@TheComicsPals I agree that we can and should move on when the comic takes a direction that we dislike (or offends). But I don't begrudge people voicing their displeasure that their favorite books are out of character(no longer for them). I also don't begrudge the paying fans when they clap back at the owners of the IPs when they call the old fans names to dismiss their grievence when the fan no longer buys the book that is no longer made for them. The tone of the discourse on both sides is what causes the temperature to rise. The love of comics is evident, otherwise one side would quitely disappear and people would be left scratching their heads why things are so bad (or maybe why they're great). We can care to listen to those angry voices or not but I don't think either side is going to stop reviewing comics and expressing reasons they like their comics and ALL the reasons the DON'T. We can agree or disagree with the voices we trust but the sales of the comics can determine who is more commited to their opinion in the end IMHO. (If they start reporting those numbers again.)
Give Haywire another chance. It's a Soderbergh film with an all star cast (and the repugnant Carano). Then watch Michael Clayton and see if you can explain either plot a week later. I enjoyed them both a lot but I can't tell you the story if there was a gun to my head.
Just look at the image that was used in the discussion. Would people rather read the Brave and the Bold 54 or Waid and Mora's Justice League which hasn't been released yet? The new one wouldsurely be the answer more than not.
'DEI' screams racist/misogynist/sexist/transphobe/homophobe. Talk the stories, not this conspiracy. Read cyber frog is a great call. Has an issue even been published yet?
Prez sold poorly but I think that was a better quality product than most current top selling comic. Sales doesn't equal quality. There is correlation not causation. Around 57:30 that was really over the top the way Tyler was spoken to.
Every type of media ( movies,video games,music,etc..) created in the 80’-90’ are definitely better than what we got nowadays cause they created basically every concepts . But I still enjoy what’s done todays
Nah man, things do evolve and something’s do get better. If you think media peaked 30-40 years ago you’re missing out or not allowing yourself to see all the good we currently have access to.
The writing isn't good in today's world for DC and Marvel, mainly because the writers they are getting are activists and don't have much experience. The writers we were getting back in 60s to the 2000s were people who have had lives and even had an understanding of the characters they were writing for. But I find it no coincidence that Marvel started to go downhill the moment they bought out by Disney, thus becoming more corporate.
some people aren't rascist but like the original character as they were, or hate when a character is put into a story (often on t.v.) for inclusion when they wouldn't have been there in real life history...
I come here to watch your discussion and just like that, one of you guys has to drop the word “woke” to describe why the current era of comics are bad. I’m just gonna say, make your point without using a flip floppy word that with nobody really knows the meaning of but everyone over uses. Just talk comics.
??? What are you talking about? None of us feel that way about comics nor is that word in any of our vocabulary in a serious way. We literally just released a video last week about that word and concept and disagreeing with the notion. Listen more closely before you come to the comments bashing people
Saying classic books is 20 years ago, well yes OG Ultimate Universe was 20 years ago and the start of Bendis Marvel was 20 years ago so of course nothing can compete with the best age of comics, I say classic starts at 1990 down. And yes morden is still better. Watchmen Is the only book worth reading from before 2000.
I think DC hasnt been great across the board since 2018. Rebirth was hit after hit for the most part. There are exceptions like anything from Jeremy Adams or any of Tom Kings mini series but ive not liked the trinity in a long time. And Harley Quinn is honestly a character I cant stand anymore. Cant say im looking forward to the future outside of GL but here's hoping DC commit. im getting tired of the constant relaunches from them and Marvel. I miss when a writers would pen a long 50-100 issue run
There are definitely some good comics, you need to look for them. However there are also many horrible ones, which you don't have to look for. Since many of the bad comics are from Marvel DC.
Also as an Australian, this conversation is very American. You guys need to open your mind past the Americans and be worldwide if you want to reach a global audience, I couldn't relate to half the stuff you guys talked about.
I’m from Brazil and I think Sam Wilson as Captain America can be genius when done right. I guess that comic books by default reach a worldwide audience and it’s obvious that Comic Pals do that. I’m not sure why Sam Wilson as Captain America or Steve Rogers as Captain America for that matter should be seen differently by an Australian or a Brazilian. A good story is a good story, representation matters and there is a lot of power in an Afro-American man taking over Captain America’s mantle and shield. If I can get that as a Brazilian, I’m not sure why an Australian wouldn’t. English isn’t even my first language and I get it just fine.
Comics were not necessarily "better" 40-10 years ago. However there was a more consistent standard of content that felt more connected. In the 80's and 90's if you picked up a Marvel comic it would read and feel a certain way. There was the Marvel and DC style to comics. Now there is much wider feel, style or vibe to them
I can certainly agree to this and I feel they even as someone who started reading in the 2000’s. There is less cohesion throughout the respective big two universes.
I loved the flow & vibe of this convo. Y’all gained a new sub + notifications on + y’all have entered my top comic book youtubers list.
My top 5 Marvel events (I’m 29 so there’s a lot I still haven’t gone back to read):
1. Not necessarily an event, but the entirety of Pete fighting Doc Ock -> Mindswap -> Superior Spider-Man -> Return of Peter Parker. There’s a lot of moments in that saga that made me feel for Octavius, a character I’d never cared much about until then
2. House of M
3. Annihilation, because it really got me into Silver Surfer
4. Spider-Men, because I wrote something extremely similar to it (conceptually) some months before on the Marvel forums back when you could post fan-fics.
5. Spider-Man: The Other, because it was the first event I collected in full & what got me to discover which comic shops I liked. My mom really went all out to make sure I got every issue of it that I could, and she was barely a superhero fan.
Thanks so much, really appreciate that you enjoyed our show so much! Not many go the extra mile of turning on notifications. I like your list, thanks for sharing it! We just read Annihilation for our Book Club. It was my first time reading it and I’ve been reading comics for 20 years 😂😂
Hope to keep seeing you around!
I wish there was an easy way to find data on this but I think its more of the quality is spread out so much more over multiple comic companies and genres. With that amount titles, people can't see all the quality because its not in their favorites (character, company etc.) We are probably near at all time high of number of comics titles being produced then any previous era and impacts peoples view. The cream usually rises to the top of sales but I do think there are "ceilings" for certain genre of comics and certain less recognized characters.
Yeah I agree completely. I wish I had made this point during the conversation but there is a ridiculous amount of comics being published, and a large majority of the ones I read are at least solid. And as most of you know, I pull a lot of books per week.
@@TheComicsPals I was trying to look up actual numbers in the 90s and one point I saw DC only had 23 books come out in one month. Marvel had somewhere in 40 range.
No, comics were objectively worse back then. Stories had zero thought put into them and all the debut comics of popular superheroes were objectively poorly written. The artist and the time period carried most of these comics. A lot of those OG runs were canceled about as quick as the same stuff comicsgate losers complain about.
Just got to the part that Comic Explained joined the podcast and this is AMAZING. Love Rob.
As for my top 5 Marvel events:
5. Secret Wars (1984): This was my first event so it will always hold a special place in my heart. Yeah, it’s incredibly simple, but also incredibly novel at time and while it isn’t as good as Crisis on Infinite Earths (my favorite DC saga despite me being way more of a Marvel fan).
4. Civil War: For the longest time, up until Jonathan Hickman’s Avengers, I felt just like Rob still feels today: I couldn’t possibly think that nothing could ever top that saga. I still love it, but like many others, I feel like Jonathan Hickman and even more so Captain America: Civil War taught me that not only that I was much more in love with the IDEA of Civil War than what actually happened and how it happened. Captain America: Civil War rewired my brain and it was the first time that I truly understood that simply adapting comic books to a different medium shouldn’t be a thing and not only that, that it’s possible to take the philosophical premise of Civil War and actually elevate it for something better. I still love it, but it’s easily the saga that didn’t age well for me the more I think about it. So while it isn’t my favorite saga of all time any longer, I’m still in love with the premise, I just think that was the first time that the MCU took a famous Marvel saga and actually elevate it.
3. Spider-Verse: I see this as Dan Slott’s magnum opus, the best and more bombastic Spider-Man saga of all time and one of the most influential comic book sagas of all time. Spider-Island brought me back to Amazing Spider-Man after the seven stages of grief after One More Day and the Death of Spider-Man in Ultimate Spider-Man). It’s the saga that actually made me love Miles Morales as Spider-Man, one of the biggest love letters to Spider-Man and took storylines that I despised from the JMS’s era (Spider-Totem, Morlun, Web of Life, etc) and not only elevated, but made it make sense with the Spider-Man mythos. It made me a full blown Brand New Day believer and its influence can be felt in comic and pop culture to this day through the Spider-Verse films and I’d even dare to say the MCU as well.
2. Jim Starlin’s Infinity Saga: This is Marvel’s ACTUAL answer to Infinite Crisis on Infinite Earths, in my mind. Secret Wars was reactionary and an excuse to sell toys. But Infinity Saga, Infinity Saga is not only special and made something like Annihilation possible, but shaped what an actual cosmic saga should look like. I’d dare to say that this is the actual high that every Marvel event is trying to achieve, and one single saga was able to top it and at this point anyone could guess what’s my top 1. My point is that there is a reason why the MCU’s Infinity Saga adapted Infinity Gauntlet, Infinity War and Infinity Crusade. It elevated Thanos as the biggest cosmic threat and actually made me more scared of him than any of Marvel villains, and I include all of them, even Doctor Doom. It’s Jim Starlin’s magnum opus and I don’t think we would be living in a world where Marvel dominated pop culture as much as it did without this one. So many iconic moments across this saga, it’s even hard for me to give it the top 2, the more I think about it.
1. Secret Wars (2015): Jonathan Hickman’s magnum opus. It should not work. It should just be yet another gimmick event, like the several times that Marvel tried to bring a version of Secret Wars back. And yet it’s in my opinion not only the best Marvel saga, but the best saga in mainstream comics of all time, so much so that it’s hard, very hard for me to connect with Avengers in comics to this day. Something about the lead up to Secret Wars and Jonathan Hickman interweaving his take on the Avengers and Fantastic Four culminating with Secret Wars gave this saga a whole different meaning. It cemented Jonathan Hickman as one of the best mainstream comic book writers not only of the 21st century, but of all time. It’s arguably my most reread saga and run of all time, and I’m sure I’m not alone in that.
If Jim Shooter was running D.C. or Marvel comics, how many creators who didn't quit, would still be employed within the first month of his hiring?!!? LOL - he'd probably fire half of both companies
I like the wrestling comparison I was into it for a little bit between 93 and 95 then I became a hardcore fan from 96 until 2006. I don't feel the need to critique the current show my nephew is really into wrestling now from the toys to the video games. The 80's babies are becoming the old men that they used to despise 35 years ago😆. You have some basketball fans who claim that they stopped watching the NBA when Jordan retired but they can't stop talking about current players.
Yes exactly. People who have to constantly talk about how much better things were in their era are insufferable. And you know what? If you can get past your biases and nostalgia, you might even find that you’ve been missing some really good stuff along the way. There’s been a LOT of great basketball since Jordan’s day.
You guys are the go to podcast while I'm playing Spider-Man 2!
Enjoy! It’s a great game.
I decide when to drop a book when I realize it is sinking to the bottom of my pull list week to week or month to month. If I realize I'm not excited to read something I'll give it that most recent issue to redeem itself and then drop or keep it based on that reaction. I do think generally the quality of comics coming out right now is pretty high, though
I really dived deep In comics in the last 5 years an I still love it. But I've been reading the mid 2000s and I can see the difference. Especially when it has more Sexual scenes an Raunchy costumes and references. So from a guy that grew up watching the Attitude Era of wrestling, I love that kind of storytelling a bit better.
Yeah I hear you. As a fellow Attitude Era baby I definitely know what you mean. But I appreciate the evolution too.
I think comics are comics. Though there are some modern troupes that annoy me.
Inconsistent creative teams, I’d take nine issues a year from the same time, rather than 12 from different artists.
Not committing to long runs. Every ten issues, we reboot to number one. Let’s try and aim for sixty issues.
Stop celebrating “milestones” by increasing the price and adding pointless backups.
Agreed on all points.
Judt wanna say this convo was awesome and i feel like i come out of every video with a better understanding of the comic industry. Now for the actual question i think its the same with every media or interest, expand your horizons and find something different, there is so much more than just marvel and dc.
Really glad to hear that Michael, thank you for sharing. I agree wholeheartedly; there’s far too many good things in media to be engaging with things you don’t like. It’s a weird thing to do.
Wednesday was always new comic book day until I stopped buying regularly around 2004, at what point did the dates change? During Covid lockdown? And at what point did it go back to Wednesday, what was the prior releases dates for new comics?
DC changed it during COVID to Tuesdays. It just went back to Wednesdays a little over a month ago I wanna say.
I disagree that good = sales. For instance, the box office for Transformers is infinitely high than the Godfather, but it’s self evident that the Godfather is better to virtually everybody. This makes it clear to me that when we think of “good” art we have some culturally shared ideas that don’t always align with financials. So many comics are designed to be inoffensive slop that 10 people will buy out of habit, but that doesn’t mean All Star Batman and Robin was better than the Walking Dead. In a perfect market the cream will always rise to the top, but we don’t live in a perfect market. We live in a market influenced by anti-intellectualism, habit, and primitive instincts that keep us from pursuing art we know is the best. And to be clear that im not a prude, I often prefer worse comics to better comics I could buy. There’s a lot more factors to a purchase decision than quality.
You're asking the wrong question. There's plenty of legitimate reasons to conclude quality is better or worse than decades ago, depending on what factors an individual prioritizes. It's a subjective, and ultimately, unhelpful debate.
The more important questions should focus on sales, why are sales dwindling, and what can be done about it? Clearly, quality is a factor in that line of questioning.
In short, the better question would be, "Are the current crop of creators and editors helping or hurting comic sales?"
You have a channel right? Make that video! This is the topic we wanted to discuss and it went well.
Also if you actually listened to the conversation you know we discuss sales as well, and have had that conversation many, many times.
I guess it depends on what you consider classic but I would say that’s ridiculous. Edit: I personally wouldn’t consider the 2000s “classic” that feels like last week to me. Regardless. Every company has its ups and downs. Just a couple years ago Marvel was really great. Chips DD, Cates Venom, Ewings Hulk, (some may disagree with the next one) Coates cap and of course his Black Panther . I think the problem is there is so much good stuff now that the bad really stands out. As opposed to in the 90s and 80s the good stuff stood out as great and the great is timeless
It feels like last week but it’s two decades ago!
Another great topic and video - must say I wholeheartedly disagree with comics explained’s take on comic stores and digital.
To expand on my point physical, tangible items can’t be beaten by digital. It’s soulless and devoid of human interaction I.e. at my LCS it’s about more than just getting my books, it’s the interactions I have, the sensory aspect (holding, smell etc). The print media market is like vinyl at the moment it’s hot! Booktok is huge!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the discussion!
I think it's as simple as growing older and interests change with time. With that comes a more narrow mind of today's books. Objectively books are better than ever and more are produced than ever before. Plus like what most people say is that what ever starting point got you into comics will always be your favorite era. To reiterate, it's people's growth over time that changes their interests without even realizing it. The bad part I would say is that people interpret that change as comics are the worse they have ever been. Of course there are outliers but for the most part there is good for every type of genre/character/setting and so on.
Yeah there’s no argument that I could really entertain that suggests comics are bad now. That just seems weird. Bad compared to when? Even if you think they’re not as good as your favorite era, there’s no way they’re BAD.
3:00 It's around this mark that Rob's point about digital fell apart.
Sean is right. Whether digital or physical, you still have the same problem with some stories being too continuity heavy and/or just confusing.
Really amazing show.
Thanks a lot!
Honestly It's hard to look at the whole of comics because of the number of independents coming out every month, and that number continues to rise. As far as quality goes, the state of comics is harder to guage now than ever, because even 5 years ago someone may be able to see a descent amount of the comics being released, but now very few if anyone sees enough of the industries books to know how good the industry is.
I see maybe 10-20 indepenent books a month and I wish I could see more of them because many of them look dope as heck and have the dopest premises....
The thing is that there are way too many options to read books you don’t enjoy. It is possible to get an idea of the state of the industry if you use your wallet and brain in conjunction. I enjoy probably 85%-90% of the books I read, and the ones I don’t enjoy are typically books I read for the show or things I give a chance to. Anyone can do this.
Monica at this point is probably my favorite comic book of all time and it came out like a year ago. It’s truly a masterpiece and blows most old and current comics out of the water
Haven’t heard of it! I’ll have to give it a look.
While i don’t particularly love Amazing Spider-Man’s current run, I one hundred percent understand Sean’s sentiment on it and more, CLEARLY that book is beloved and the idea that people only buy it because they are completionists like several vocal comic book reviewers say is ludicrous. My favorite Amazing Spider-Man run of all time is Dan Slott’s Amazing Spider-Man, and that was plagued with online hate as well. And just like Sean, just because Sean loves Amazing Spider-Man current run and I’m not feeling it doesn’t mean that I don’t think that run should exist. I AM very much excited for Joe Kelly’s and Ed McGuiness’ Amazing Spider-Man run though. Spider-Man and Deadpool is an absolute gem and these two creators together is always gold.
My point is: more people should be more chill with how they love or don’t love a comic book run. There are always a comic book for you, and I’m sick and tired of the Spider-Man fandom acting like aging and old disgruntled Star Wars fans with Spider-Man. Ultimate Spider-Man exists and while I don’t like it as much as everyone else, it’s brilliant, so just get that. Spectacular Spider-Men has been giving me my Spider-Men fix for now and that’s completely fine. Also, love Sean’s rant against the racist bullshit.
Couldn’t agree more. Thanks for the comment!
Stop. ASM has been trash since Slott was chased out
@@FreshNews247Ok.
TLDR: All New All Different Ghost Rider was a waste.
Great talk. About the All New All Different phase of Marvel, I just want to talk about Ghost Rider. Ghost Rider had volume 1 about Johnny Blaze, and it was great . Then 1990 vol. 2 brings in Danny Ketch, and that sparks interest in Johnny Blaze, so we have two Ghost Rider books for a time. These books do well at first, but don’t make the cut when Marvel almost shuttered its doors in 1998. and you end up with three mini-series to test the waters for a Ghost Rider return, Hammer Lane 2002, Road To Damnation 2006 (by Ennis which was amazing), and Trail of Tears 2007 (also by Ennis and amazing). Road To Damnation did well so, they relaunch it with Way and Jason Aaron. This culminated with the Heaven’s on Fire story which is amazing. Ghost Rider is doing well. Only bad run they have had is that 2002 Hammer Lane.
So, they relaunch the title and make Alejandra Jones the new Ghost Rider. I could write pages about everything they did in this series, but for every success they made huge blunders. The title ends, it is 3 years after Heaven’s on Fire where it feels like Ghost Rider is great and we are now 3 years past Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch being the main character in a Ghost Rider comic.
Marvel announces All New All Different Ghost Rider and we get Robbie Reyes. The book starts off and doesn’t follow much of the preexisting Ghost Rider lore, and has Tradd Moore art that doesn’t fit the normal occult, supernatural, paranormal, and dark stories vibe that are in a Ghost Rider comic. Then in addition to Moore’s very bright splashy art, the stories felt like a cartoonish coming of age story, and not like Ghost Rider. It was like an edgy Spider-Man origin. The final story arc of the initial run has a very dark feel and finally feels like something out of Ghost Rider and it gave me hope, that this Ghost Rider would have a different feel, and finally has some momentum. Those who have read it know that when Robbie’s little brother dresses up like Ninja Wolf, there was fear in what happens next and I was finally hooked. Then they cancel after the next arc, do the Marvel thing relaunch, same writer to get a new number 1, but this time instead of about Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider it is about Robbie, X-23, and Cho Hulk. It sheds readers fast and gets canceled fast. It ends up 2019 before I have an ongoing monthly Ghost Rider to read about Johnny Blaze or Danny Ketch.
The worst thing is they have introduced 3 new Ghost Riders in that time if you count Cosmic Ghost Rider. Jones Ghost Rider is killed in a throw away tie in to Absolute Carnage. Robbie Reyes I would be interested in reading again as a guy who is trying to do the Spider-Man like thing and balance work, school, taking care of his little brother, and his constant fight against a spirit who wants to corrupt him. However, Jason Aaron then makes him an Avenger and he has been elevated to a place where we will never see them flesh out his character. He never developed the whole story on his own, and we can’t go back to him feeling like a more grounded “Friendly Neighborhood Ghost Rider”. He went from if I need to do this (hunt evil) I am gonna do it on my terms taking out the worst of the worst and keeping my brother safe. To I am earths mightiest hero. The initial story arcs made jokes about speed, and he became a joke about editorial speed, going from an up and coming superhero to Avengers tier before he established and audience and I feel no one will no this character in 15 years. So, I tell people I think Robbie Reyes was a wasted concept that disrupted Ghost Rider, and peoples gut reaction is like yours that maybe I am just an old man angry that things changed, when really I have been buying Ghost Rider comics for 30 years and had to experience a decade of them trying to replace characters, that will sell a mid-tier monthly title that I love, with two attempts they never followed through with. They can never go back to the Robbie Reyes origin and there is not enough character work to tell the next Robbie Reyes story, or at least without a very talented writer who is going to dedicate time to a character who will soon be forgotten.
@andrewduitsman3918: It sounds like they've done what DC and MARVEL have continued to do which is bring in so many new characters with the same name and mostly the same powers that it's diluted the original concept.
I wanted to respond to this for two reasons: one, I respect your loyalty to Ghost Rider! I think that’s awesome and I love the uniqueness of everyone’s list of favorites. I’ve never known anyone who loved GR as much as you do.
Two, I do NOT think you’re just an old guy angry things changed. The point of this conversation was to try and bring nuance to the way we talk about comics. Everything you just described doesn’t read to me like a guy mad about change, it reads like a guy who has a connection and affection for a character that Marvel didn’t take care of and do right by. I can get behind that very easily. Your articulation and ability to pick out specific logical reasons for your argument is a far cry from what we were talking about with respect to people who can’t accept change.
@@TheComicsPals Thanks for the response. I apologize if my comment was to preachy. It was really hard around the time that one of my favorite books got replaced by new characters for almost decade. Not only did it lose the momentum from the previous run, but it also created this reoccurring conversation. Me, "man, the new Ghost Rider is kind of bad." Other people, "no it is so good, the Hell Charger is awesome." Me, "yes the car is cool, but are you reading the story? This was dumb, this was dumb...." Other people, "grumble grumble, you are an old man yelling at clouds." It felt like a book I love got hijacked and speculators happy for the idea of a new Ghost Rider who were not reading it, were attacking OG fans, because that was easier than defending Alejandra Jones as Ghost Rider, or the tonal shift with Robbie Reyes.
I always liken it to classic rock stations and the claim that music sucks these days too. Classic Rock stations get to cherry-pick the best stuff from previous eras. There’s so much crappy old music but you never hear it because why would anyone revisit that.
There are so many crappy old comics. Everytime I read an old Steve Englehart comic and he brings out Mantis for no reason, I regret learning to read. But most people just get cherry pick the best stuff from the past, or stuff they have nostalgic appreciation for.
There's so much good music still coming out under the radar, I think a lot of old heads get off on the idea that they're the last generation to have good music. Even if you introduced them to new good stuff, some of them would be in such denial it'd be sad. Not all of them, I've seen some boomers still discovering cool music.
Nostalgia is a major factor for sure. A lot of them also have ulterior reasoning as to why they don’t like modern comics that have nothing to do with quality.
Everybody has there own natural attrition rate for the grind of weekly mainstream Marvel/DC comics. Getting yourself geared up again and again for the next climatic story and a new beginning. I peaked between 2003-2011 and then tried a bunch of times to get back to in the 2010s and now my pull list floats between 3-5 titles none of which are the usual big titles and I'm perfectly happy. But I don't attribute that to comics getting worse but I could see how people would confuse the two...though of course some people genuinely feel that way for reasons more logical than "not white guys write more of this now than they used to."
Certainly there are people like that and I hold a lot of space for that. When I spoke on how race and gender and age are a factor I’m talking about a very specific sort of reader.
If they mean only Marvel and DC, they should say that and not just act like the rest of the exciting stuff in the industry doesn't exist. And maybe they should read those, i'll never understand people who limit their own options then complain there's nothing good.
Even at the big 2, there's still good writers and artists working for them. I think one issue that can be tough for creators at the big 2 to tackle is bringing fresh ideas with characters who've been around since the 40s. Can't be easy.
Readers ask for something different, but they really dont want that. That's why they'd rather say comics suck now instead of discovering anything by the other publishers.
Yeah, most of the people who say that can’t seem to find one single thing they’ve enjoyed in mainstream comics in xx amount of years. If that’s the case, why still be engaged?
"A good comic will sell" is the same as "if it doesn't sell, it's a bad comic."
A bad comic could still sell, and you can't use sales figures to determine if the comic is likely to be worth reading.
"If it sells, then it's a good comic" is the same as "bad comics won't sell."
A comic that isn't selling need not be bad. It could be good. Using sales figures to determine if a book is worth picking up is a good strategy, but you'd be missing out on some good comics.
A comic that isn’t selling isn’t necessarily bad, but there are more “bad” comics that don’t sell than good ones that don’t sell. Largely the cream rises to the top.
I agree that there Should be room for criticism, heck there should be room for down right hating certain comics or certain writing or art. But the problem is there are 2 types of people (CG and 50 old gate keepers) who will straight up blast modern comics non stop as a hobby/profession it seems. They both overlap and intersect in many ways and they have the same goals and aspirations, namely, go back to how things were in "classic era" of... not the 40s, 50s, 60s or 70s but, you guessed it, the 80s and 90s !
truth be told they make up a huge portion of the direct market and are the loudest voice on RUclips (not reddit or twitter? I think its a site-demographic thing?). you can easily differentiate between someone who genuinely has criticism of modern stories and a jaded cg/ cg-light person.
like you guys, I am 2000s era kind of guy and I have been disliking modern comics (for various reasons) for a while. so I downsized my intake quite a bit. but ""nonstop"" whining and complaining about funny books and movies is not a good look on any man, let alone middle-aged fathers and family men.
Current day comics aren’t good because of many things. A good value for your comic book dollar is super important.
If you don’t get a full story in one issue it’s frustrating. Even more so if there is no payoff when the larger story ends.
If the story of the character “evolves”, as an editor, writer, creator, you have to respect the fans and the lore. If the fans don’t buy in, it’s up to the owner of the IP to course correct, not tell the reader “this story isn’t for you”.
They shouldn’t be surprised when fans get mad that their favorite character is no longer recognizable.
Fan is short for FANATIC. If you don’t get bent out of shape when the editors or writers or artists do THEIR version of the comic then you may not be a fan but just a casual reader.
As a casual reader that can dip in and out of a comic you may be able to shrug it off but you are also probably not the die hard fan that buys EVERY issue of that one comic.
And when your one comic is evolving into something unrecognizable to you and the editors and writers don’t course correct they shouldn’t be surprised that sales go down. Because the fan believed them when they told them, “this book is no longer for you.”
I agree insofar as sales will drop if fans feel alienated. That’s a good thing and it’s the knob that fans have to turn in order to show their feelings to editors and creators. That being said, while it’s sad to realize that something might not be for you anymore it’s not the end of the world. I love the Avengers, I pulled it for nearly 20 years straight. I do not enjoy the current run at all, so right now it’s not for me. There are a lot of books that are though so I read those. We’re all adults presumably, life does go on.
@@TheComicsPals I agree that we can and should move on when the comic takes a direction that we dislike (or offends). But I don't begrudge people voicing their displeasure that their favorite books are out of character(no longer for them). I also don't begrudge the paying fans when they clap back at the owners of the IPs when they call the old fans names to dismiss their grievence when the fan no longer buys the book that is no longer made for them.
The tone of the discourse on both sides is what causes the temperature to rise. The love of comics is evident, otherwise one side would quitely disappear and people would be left scratching their heads why things are so bad (or maybe why they're great).
We can care to listen to those angry voices or not but I don't think either side is going to stop reviewing comics and expressing reasons they like their comics and ALL the reasons the DON'T. We can agree or disagree with the voices we trust but the sales of the comics can determine who is more commited to their opinion in the end IMHO. (If they start reporting those numbers again.)
I agree with Marco and Tyler - your taste or disinterest doesnt mean the stories are bad, they just arent for you. Find something for you.
Give Haywire another chance. It's a Soderbergh film with an all star cast (and the repugnant Carano).
Then watch Michael Clayton and see if you can explain either plot a week later. I enjoyed them both a lot but I can't tell you the story if there was a gun to my head.
Just look at the image that was used in the discussion. Would people rather read the Brave and the Bold 54 or Waid and Mora's Justice League which hasn't been released yet? The new one wouldsurely be the answer more than not.
'DEI' screams racist/misogynist/sexist/transphobe/homophobe. Talk the stories, not this conspiracy.
Read cyber frog is a great call. Has an issue even been published yet?
Prez sold poorly but I think that was a better quality product than most current top selling comic.
Sales doesn't equal quality. There is correlation not causation.
Around 57:30 that was really over the top the way Tyler was spoken to.
Bone, Kingdom come, marvels, sandman, wildstorm - all the 90s.
Every type of media ( movies,video games,music,etc..) created in the 80’-90’ are definitely better than what we got nowadays cause they created basically every concepts . But I still enjoy what’s done todays
Nah man, things do evolve and something’s do get better. If you think media peaked 30-40 years ago you’re missing out or not allowing yourself to see all the good we currently have access to.
The writing isn't good in today's world for DC and Marvel, mainly because the writers they are getting are activists and don't have much experience. The writers we were getting back in 60s to the 2000s were people who have had lives and even had an understanding of the characters they were writing for. But I find it no coincidence that Marvel started to go downhill the moment they bought out by Disney, thus becoming more corporate.
Unfortunately your mind is totally made up. I don’t agree with any of this.
I was so scared when Rob disagreed with Sean. I was worried he was going to blow up and scare Rob away.
Now why would that happen?
@@TheComicsPalsRob who?
@@TheComicsPals I watch the show often and you're very passionate. That's why I watch.
Thanks, I appreciate that that’s a part of why you watch.
some people aren't rascist but like the original character as they were, or hate when a character is put into a story (often on t.v.) for inclusion when they wouldn't have been there in real life history...
I come here to watch your discussion and just like that, one of you guys has to drop the word “woke” to describe why the current era of comics are bad. I’m just gonna say, make your point without using a flip floppy word that with nobody really knows the meaning of but everyone over uses. Just talk comics.
??? What are you talking about? None of us feel that way about comics nor is that word in any of our vocabulary in a serious way. We literally just released a video last week about that word and concept and disagreeing with the notion. Listen more closely before you come to the comments bashing people
Art isn't subjective. Your taste in art is subjective.
Saying classic books is 20 years ago, well yes OG Ultimate Universe was 20 years ago and the start of Bendis Marvel was 20 years ago so of course nothing can compete with the best age of comics, I say classic starts at 1990 down. And yes morden is still better. Watchmen Is the only book worth reading from before 2000.
I think DC hasnt been great across the board since 2018. Rebirth was hit after hit for the most part.
There are exceptions like anything from Jeremy Adams or any of Tom Kings mini series but ive not liked the trinity in a long time. And Harley Quinn is honestly a character I cant stand anymore.
Cant say im looking forward to the future outside of GL but here's hoping DC commit. im getting tired of the constant relaunches from them and Marvel. I miss when a writers would pen a long 50-100 issue run
Comics sucks now.peope just buy covers and don't even read them .those who read them don't come back to them
Comics definitely don’t suck now. Try reading some?
There are definitely some good comics, you need to look for them. However there are also many horrible ones, which you don't have to look for. Since many of the bad comics are from Marvel DC.
@markhowd7117 and many from marvel and dc are good
@zullumaster123 no, they are far and few
@@markhowd7117 nah, I've read quite a few.
Also as an Australian, this conversation is very American. You guys need to open your mind past the Americans and be worldwide if you want to reach a global audience, I couldn't relate to half the stuff you guys talked about.
I mean we’re American and we’re speaking on our experience and the Western comics direct market. What are we supposed to do? Sorry?
@TheComicsPals I agree but I'm saying think what would a boy in East Asia think when he sees Sam Wilson as Captain America? Open that mind
I’m from Brazil and I think Sam Wilson as Captain America can be genius when done right. I guess that comic books by default reach a worldwide audience and it’s obvious that Comic Pals do that. I’m not sure why Sam Wilson as Captain America or Steve Rogers as Captain America for that matter should be seen differently by an Australian or a Brazilian. A good story is a good story, representation matters and there is a lot of power in an Afro-American man taking over Captain America’s mantle and shield. If I can get that as a Brazilian, I’m not sure why an Australian wouldn’t. English isn’t even my first language and I get it just fine.
Thank you.