So the solution to avoid using a chess clock… is basically a chess clock with more steps. And the possibility of unfairly penalizing someone. And that takes forever to explain and still doesn’t make sense. Woo.
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Strictly speaking it would be a time measurement device, to signal when a certain amount of time has passed. Since it doesn't "Split" anything, I would assume it is *not* inappropriate.
I ran events for Warmachine and Hordes for 8+ years and chess clocks solve so many problems (that's where the "Death Clock" term came from - it was a rule where if a player's clock ran out they immediately lost the game as if their warcaster/warlock had been killed). They take a little getting used to if you've never played on a clock before, but they're so much better than timed turns (the timing method before chess clocks became popular in tabletop mini games) because it's totally fine if you have a crucial turn that takes a while to play out - you'd just better be prepared to play that much faster afterward. You can even play big armies on a chess clock, if you practice doing so. But if you bring 1000 goblins to a tournament and you want to have a little chat about all of their individual hopes and dreams in every game, either you or your opponent is going to have a bad time. Chess clocks make sure the bad time falls squarely where it belongs - on you. And hey, if the thought of just focusing on playing the game and not having a complete beer-and-pretzels experience every time makes you sad, guess what? Nobody will make you play by tournament rules unless you are attending or preparing for a tournament. Just don't go to tournaments.
@@thehonestwargamerstreams I've run entire tournaments that had less than 7 hours of actual game time (four 90-minute rounds, e.g.); if I were running an event and ONE GAME took that long, I'd give both players a loss and start calculating scores so everyone could go home and get on with their lives. Like... Age of Sigmar? Whatever it is, it's +1 now, because Sigmar had a birthday in the time it took for you to navel-gaze your way through that game. JFC. (came here via Square Based, big fan)
This might be some of the dumbest AoS ''guidline'' things I've ever heard about... I am a very casual player, but I enjoy the 3h(ish) time limit. I do not have time to play a 5 round AoS game for 5-10+ hours. I got other shit to do. The chess clock makes for a far more enjoyable game for me so I dont have to wait for my opponent all day long. It gets you to be more active in the moment, make quicker decisions and play in a far more spontaneous manner, which I also find far more enjoyable. Which also gets you more focused and immersed in the game as a general. I play Sons of Behemat and I love them (I know Rob hates them). I spent over 2000 hours handsculpting and painting my 8k points army by myself over the last 4 years. I enjoy the casual playstyle of big simpel monsters running up at the enemy and just smashing things to bits. So having a low model count army and being forced to make quicker decisions because of chessclocks makes for a far more enjoyable gaming experience. If my opponent wants to play a 200+ model count army, then I am all for it. But that means they made the choice of bringing such a time consuming force so they need to able to play it within their alloted time, and it is on them to play faster. Ofc I would let my opponent play within my time if there is some left on mine, but it still needs to be within the 3h timelimit of the game we both signed up for. If you go to a tournament that has 3h games? Then chose a force you think you can play within that timeframe WITH your opponent.. I think it is utter bullshit that one player gets more time allowed, if you both signed up for 1.5h of your own gaming time(or 3h combined). TLDR: As a casual player I find chessclocks really fun to play with.
I mean this just feels like GW all over. Rules that are so over-written and over-complicated their almost completely impossible to understand when the actual solution is actually just really simple.
One thing I’d like to see in the ongoing conversations around chess clocks is accessibility. What has the community proposal been for players who may be mobility impaired (and thus potentially slower in moving around the board as a whole or in moving miniatures) or equally the stress and pressure that a ticking clock can place upon people who are neuro diverse. Has this been discussed anywhere in the community?
Does it need discussion? Those sorts of situations are pretty easily handled at the table in my experience. If they need more time let's commit to only going 4 or even 3 turns up front. Not every tournament game needs to go 5 rounds, it just needs to be completed under the tournament round limit
@@metal995 I was more wondering if there was a protocol for additional time being provided in such circumstances? I certainly think saying play less warhammer is not the answer. For example, Why should an individual in a wheelchair only get to play 4 rounds?
@jonfisher4106 tournament conditions are bound to external real-world constraints such as the number of hours the venue is booked, the fact that people have to go home at the end, lunch breaks etc. Allowing more time to a person is, of course, possible but cannot affect the need to meet those external requirements. Otherwise everybody is penalised. Also, clock are simply a way to FAIRLY manage time, it simply helps you to materialise the time passing better. If you start a game of AOS in tournament there is already a " time constraint" over your head that might stress you, clock help you to manage it.
@@TheHonestWargamer totally, I’ve seen nothing but good experiences. I just wondered if it had been discussed with the introduction of clocks is all. For example, in school exams some additional time is often provided for certain conditions. You are more likely to see requests for dietary requirements in Tournament Packs than say requests for any special assistance. Might be nice to think about adding some paragraphs to packs on how special circumstances will be accommodated with the use of clocks 😀
I wasn't sure what to make of this when you started, Rob but then you started reading the actual rules and guidelines and that's just fucking insane. It's needlessly complicated...when you could just use a fucking clock!!
This has been Brandts opinion on clocks for years. Milestones is the nova method and it’s incredibly easy to exploit. This document is a bit insane and shows where rules are going wrong 😅 What they did at Nova this year is some of the top players would stall the game until they missed milestones and then would call a judge to then get equal time. It’s absurd.
This video is a great example of why “comedy will never be able to reach reality”. No comedian would ever think this and even if it did, we d never laugh probably because “he tried too hard and went way too far”. Laughed so fucking much watching this video. I love that I got to learn this is a thing from you Rob. I really fucking do. So damn entertaining ( and frightening to think that this company can still act so dumb out of nowhere )
Chess clocks works terrible in warhammer. It works in chess because there are no rules question, no rules discussions, no gray areas whos time the clock is on, no way interracting with the game in the opponents turn. Its "I go, you go" back and forth. There is also no need to be exact with movements, distances or checking dice rolls. Clocks force you to play fast in a game where precision is vital. That said, while chess clocks functions poorly in warhammer, the alternative is worse. "Just winging it" isnt an option in a tournament that has to run on schedule and as much as I dislike clocks I dislike calling a game after turn 2 because my opponent took 2.5h to complete 2 turns and deploy a hell of a lot more. It also mean I can feel like I can take my time, because it becomes MY time, and not stress through my turns to finish on time when my opponent slow played like crazy. I think part of my dislike for clocks also stems from my feeling that 3h just isnt enought to introduce yourself, set up, deploy and play 5 turns of warhammer. Maybe I would like them more if tournaments here gave us 3.5 or 4h on the clock. Prohibiting clocks EVEN IF BOTH PLAYERS AGREE is wild though.
Great post. I love the rational for not liking chess clocks is nothing to do with chess clocks and just that round times are too short to have a social game.
They work pretty well in games like Warhammer though tbh. It keeps time division fair, and it allows judges to give a little additional time for rules questions, similar to magic, yu-gi-oh, warmachine Mk 2+3, 40k, etc. It also just helps keeps things on a schedule that is pretty close to the time allotted per round. It requires a different skill of time management and functioning well under pressure though.
@@suspecthalo I disagree. Some lists by design take more time to play and be effective than others. A Sons of Behemat list will simply not take as long to play a turn with as a Skaven or Gloomspite list. Should a Skaven player be forced to play his 50 - 100 model army as quickly as a Sons player's 5 model army? Should a Sons player really expect a horde list to be played as quickly as gargants? Wouldn't that place unnecessary stress to play quickly on the Skaven player? I can understand that the alternative isn't exactly attractive: nobody likes losing a 4 hour game that only went to Round 2 because you didn't have enough time to move your models to the objectives while your opponent meticulously measured every millimeter that every one of his 60 clanrats moved. That said I would argue that in a setting where both players are acting like mature adults and nobody is attempting to cheat the other that a setup without chess clocks is more fair to both players than one with them.
@@TheBaconShaman While you could make the argument that the decision time should be divided equally and the 200 clanrat army should have more time than the SoB player because it just takes more time to move/roll dice for so many models, it doesn't work in a bigger context. Sure vs SoB the rats might take some extra time but what happens in the next game when he faces 200 zombies? And 200 goblins in the game after that? If you go to a tournament, you need to be able to finish a game in 1.5h (assuming 3h is the decided match lenght), and if you can do that in other matches then there is no reason you can't do it vs SoB. My experience has been that clocks makes most games less fun but turn the occasional unplayable game, vs an incredibly slow opponent, into a a real game of warhammer. For that reason I don't bring chess clocks to tournaments but certainly won't blame an opponent for doing so (tournaments here always plays chess clocks if one player requests it).
@@umpac123 I think you missed my point. I'm fully aware that in a timed format that you need to be able to play your models in a reasonable time frame, but when a horde army plays a horde army both players face the same struggle against the clock. The game may very well end early, but, assuming equal skill, both players will have played roughly the same amount of time. This does not occur when a player who runs an elite list plays against a horde. Even the fastest clanrat spammer will struggle to finish in a similar time frame to the slowest megagargant list. The ease of being able to play the army slowly in a timed format is an inherent advantage that the Sons player has that was not intended for nor balanced around. This simple fact makes horde armies weaker in tournament play than they should be based on their rules and points costs, and in some formats makes them unplayable. If the rules of the game, the models in the range, and the theme of the army all support creating an army list that runs large numbers of models then I don't think we should be enforcing that the competitions where we celebrate the highest expression of gaming skill penalize those lists because they take longer to use.
It feels like these clock rules were meant to be released on April 1 and accidentally held back for 6 months. When you got to the bit about "clock status" I started giggling uncontrollably. Talk about making something way more complicated than it needs to be.
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Honestly it feels like a rule from 2nd edition 40k or something. "Time-splitting device," a 40 point piece of wargear with several pages worth of rules.
I never knew something was missing in my life....a clock policy...every day is a school day. Somebody actually spent time and was paid to come up with this!
I might be in the minority here, but I actually do understand what their intentions are by calling chess clocks “inappropriate”, and only want to utilize them in edge case scenarios. Having to manage a clock back and forth for every type of interaction (saves, wards, covering fire in the opponents turn and then your own stuff in your turn etc etc), sorta takes focus away from them game, and puts time management in the front of the game instead of being an intention or a guideline. Again I do feel like a system like this encourages people to “vibe it out” in time (to use your own words), showing good sportsmanship. However, for the edge cases, where people are unable to adhere to the guidelines, there are contingencies in place, where clocks can be put in the forefront and everything can be centered around them, which is fine to complete a game that’s not on track. Personally I do feel like a chess clocks takes something away from the game, but I’m also not planning on competing for worlds anytime soon, so maybe my opinion isn’t valid :-).
@RagDollRat I personally play some complex and some large armies. I should have no right to more time than my opponent. It's my choice to bring a larger army and my opponent should not be penalised. The faxt is that there's only so much time in a round and literally the only way it can be fair is for both players to get an equal share.
I think you have a valid point. Usually I agree with Rob's point of view on most things .. but there is another aspect of the game that hasn't been discussed, or that I've seen. And that is, experienced vs. non-experienced players. It can really be intimidating for an inexperienced player, and perhaps one with a bigger army to feel an added pressure of a chess clock. And an added pressure playing against an experienced player who may be getting through turns quicker. It adds to an overall unwanted feeling that the inexperienced player is always using their full amount of time, and them feeling rushed or intimidated to look up a rule, and perhaps they would feel like an annoyance in the game and have a less enjoyable time. Which is maybe what the overall spirit of the game is about .. the subtraction of the clock seems a little more universally inclusive .. and yes, the additional clock rules at the end, are really for specific situations that need to be controlled, that are within the discretion of the organizers. I think it makes sense .. the additional rules may seem complicated, but they are really not there for the sake of complication .. they are there for the sake of more inclusion for inexperienced and younger, or players with larger armies while maintaining an ability to control some things that may get out of hand.
Imagine writing a 4 page document and being THIS insane and ruining and event purely because you want to die on a hill you stood on years ago. Wild levels of ego.
I I understand what GW tries to do here (it is though a problem in game design that SBG take 2-3 times the time to play as gargants, while other board games make efforts to keep the same economy of actions across players),. I was very happy with how this casual feeling turned out in Warhammerfest. On the other hand, it makes no sense to forbid two players to use a clock if they both agree in an event like Warhammer Worlds.
Even as a lazy casual this was hilarious thanks! The addition of Terrible Terry Tate the office linebacker could add some real jeopardy to enhance the situation!
People need to have an equal amount of time because if they don't people will take the piss where prizes are availble and time their opponent out in one way or another
I've never seen a game of AoS played with a chess clock, how do people normally handle actions you perform in your opponent's turn, including rolling saves and wards etc?
The sarcasm is strong with this one! This sounds like it was written by a lawyer who has never played a game. I think that is the sort of thing that puts people off tournaments
@@thehonestwargamerstreams yeah of course, I'd love to come up to one of your events one day cos it sounds ace, but when the big boys at GeeDubs are putting out rules like this... gives a bad vibe to people thinking about getting into the event scene
Chess clocks in tourneys are so needed. Recent RTT I attended winner played DOT horror spam. Not a single game did he make it past turn 3 and they had to talk it out to determine winner. If you bring an army that requires 5 full rounds have a chance at chewing through and take so long as we can only get through 3 rounds its incredibly unfair.
I'm not surprised Rob - as you recall, in quite a big event, Games Workshop Ended Time just before the launch of Age of Sigmar, so acknowledging Time is inappropriate as it would be a reference to a previous game system and would only confuse players. We can't have people accidentally ranking up on square bases in the middle of the World Championship Wrestling event
Wouldn't want to win this way if overtime is possible and the other player doesn't take forever. Would've just pushed him a bit to hurry up and make the significant desicions. Wouldn't feel like an honest win for me
I do have the feeling, all they wanted to do: You dont loose to the clock... Wich is fine, you could just simply remove points for going over the time limit...
I’m really struggling to think of something, anything, that rivals this in terms of convoluted, absurdity. Either someone is terrified of clocks unless completely necessary OR they’re just really against a logical system that works for everyone else because they can’t copyright it as their own system. It so bad it’s hilarious though and this video made me laugh.
'3.3.3.1 "Clocked" Status' gave me a laugh. Using a chess clock? Obviously inappropriate. Yuck. Writing a sub-sub-sub-chapter explaining the "clocked" player status effect? Totally normal and appropriate.
At the start of the video I was thinking "who really cares about some tournament rules for clocks, it makes no difference to 90% of people". By the end of it I was literally cackling at the depth of depraved absurdity of these official GW guidelines, this is an absolute clown moment that deserves the spotlight and I found it hilarious
2 things - 1 - All Clock Managers must be certified by Flava Flav 2 - Mike must have an Advanced Degree in Steiner Math, as that is the only way this makes any degree of sense to us mere mortals
I don’t like chess clocks and the mini game it creates. I do like how GW announces the time and the approximate place both players should be within a game. A good compromise would be to have an enforcement halfway into the game to where if you are way behind midway then you split the time. Nothing is perfect but I see both points…..
It sounds to me like they want to treat it more like golf than chess. Finish the round in a reasonable time or be put on a clock. I’m fine with that. As long as both players have enough time to complete their game, the actual time split doesn’t matter. What I think is less fair is having to stop the game early because of time constraints. Like you would never just call it after 16 holes of golf because some time clock runs out.
I prefer tournaments that give a bit more, 3,5 h games. It leaves a bit more room for having casual conversations, have fun and so on, without sacrificing trying to win tournament / taking it serrious.
I'm against clocks, but sometimes are necessary. Sincerely i've seen more opponents with small amount of pieces and abilities use much more time. The real way to cut ti,es should be digital,dice throwing, it save tones of time
I think the bigger question here is: of course the game is not designed to be "timed" and about "who can do the most actions in an hour", but there is also a... clinically interesting matter to discuss, which is what kind of people could possible take 2 hours to play HALF of an AoS-game...
I agree this is nuts, and that clocks are totally necessary but I will also say 40k tournaments especially are kind of joking themselves by having 3 hour rounds. Either tournaments need to lower the points threshold or they need to start sooner/break rounds up better.
Well that's how it works in magic, the rounds have a time limit, not all player play at the same pace, and it depends on the deck, state of the play etc. If a player takes too long to make decisions you can call a judge and he can be issue a warning to your opponent (I don't know the ins and outs, it's really complicated). Since a game of magic is shorter, maybe it's more applicable that an AOS game. I guess it require to have many more judge (a lot of time the judge stay to evaluate if the player is indeed playing too slow). A Chess clock seems really practical in a lot of cases indeed, that's sad that they didn't embrace it. But it is feasible without, and yeah they probably didn't think of time while designing it, which is fine.
So the solution to avoid using a chess clock… is basically a chess clock with more steps. And the possibility of unfairly penalizing someone. And that takes forever to explain and still doesn’t make sense. Woo.
Games Workshop rules writing in a nutshell.
@@TheArchTroll Also making everyone deeply unhappy at some point and screwing them out of their time and money.
Waiting for a $230 40k Time-splitting Device announcement.
I've ordered 2
@@thehonestwargamerstreams AoS sold seperately as their milestones are incompatible and part of radically different space-time continuums.
Limited edition. They'll make 500 of them and never release any more, but also make the game almost impossible to play without one.
Clock
keywords: Inappropriate
Genuinely lolled
Command phase ability (army)
Movement -6
Surely this isn’t real. But if it is - thrilled to bring my three foot hourglass to the next tournament. It’s not a clock!
Is it a split time device?
@@thehonestwargamerstreams It's technically got 2 different chambers. GET IT OUT OF HERE!
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Strictly speaking it would be a time measurement device, to signal when a certain amount of time has passed. Since it doesn't "Split" anything, I would assume it is *not* inappropriate.
Inappropriate!
@@thehonestwargamerstreams yep. Some time in the top, some time in the bottom. Banned.
The sass during reading their statement was why I subbed in the first place, well done
Thankyou x
The only explanation that makes sense is that this policy was written by a comic book villain whose family was murdered by clocks
Coming soon to Football, no more clocks. Each team will now just get equal turns with the ball
Equal please
Football does not have equal time either. One team can play a game where they draw out the clock to give the other team less attempts to score.
@@MrJadeskiesthat’s why he’s highlighting how dumb it is. To assume they’ll have equal time is Naive
I want to see all clock mangers walking around like Flavor Flav 😂
To be fair, I accept the argument that a really good game of AoS exists outside of regular time and space.
Pretty much sums up the overwritten word salad that rules have become.
“Chat GPT simplify these new clock rules”: Use a chess-clock
yeah my first thought was this just screams GW's approach to everything....
Like this is super clown fiesta vibe, what on earth
I ran events for Warmachine and Hordes for 8+ years and chess clocks solve so many problems (that's where the "Death Clock" term came from - it was a rule where if a player's clock ran out they immediately lost the game as if their warcaster/warlock had been killed). They take a little getting used to if you've never played on a clock before, but they're so much better than timed turns (the timing method before chess clocks became popular in tabletop mini games) because it's totally fine if you have a crucial turn that takes a while to play out - you'd just better be prepared to play that much faster afterward. You can even play big armies on a chess clock, if you practice doing so. But if you bring 1000 goblins to a tournament and you want to have a little chat about all of their individual hopes and dreams in every game, either you or your opponent is going to have a bad time. Chess clocks make sure the bad time falls squarely where it belongs - on you.
And hey, if the thought of just focusing on playing the game and not having a complete beer-and-pretzels experience every time makes you sad, guess what? Nobody will make you play by tournament rules unless you are attending or preparing for a tournament. Just don't go to tournaments.
Well thought out reply and I back this up 100%
@@thehonestwargamerstreams I've run entire tournaments that had less than 7 hours of actual game time (four 90-minute rounds, e.g.); if I were running an event and ONE GAME took that long, I'd give both players a loss and start calculating scores so everyone could go home and get on with their lives.
Like... Age of Sigmar? Whatever it is, it's +1 now, because Sigmar had a birthday in the time it took for you to navel-gaze your way through that game. JFC.
(came here via Square Based, big fan)
“Times is real.” - James Workshop
This might be some of the dumbest AoS ''guidline'' things I've ever heard about...
I am a very casual player, but I enjoy the 3h(ish) time limit. I do not have time to play a 5 round AoS game for 5-10+ hours. I got other shit to do.
The chess clock makes for a far more enjoyable game for me so I dont have to wait for my opponent all day long. It gets you to be more active in the moment, make quicker decisions and play in a far more spontaneous manner, which I also find far more enjoyable. Which also gets you more focused and immersed in the game as a general.
I play Sons of Behemat and I love them (I know Rob hates them). I spent over 2000 hours handsculpting and painting my 8k points army by myself over the last 4 years.
I enjoy the casual playstyle of big simpel monsters running up at the enemy and just smashing things to bits. So having a low model count army and being forced to make quicker decisions because of chessclocks makes for a far more enjoyable gaming experience.
If my opponent wants to play a 200+ model count army, then I am all for it. But that means they made the choice of bringing such a time consuming force so they need to able to play it within their alloted time, and it is on them to play faster.
Ofc I would let my opponent play within my time if there is some left on mine, but it still needs to be within the 3h timelimit of the game we both signed up for.
If you go to a tournament that has 3h games? Then chose a force you think you can play within that timeframe WITH your opponent.. I think it is utter bullshit that one player gets more time allowed, if you both signed up for 1.5h of your own gaming time(or 3h combined).
TLDR: As a casual player I find chessclocks really fun to play with.
Sob have bugger all to do tho. You played other armies with a chess clock?
Maybe the intent is that during the game the Time Management staff walk through the venue with a gong, calling out the time? 🤔
It's the only reasonable response
Tecnopriests of Mars would approve this document 😉👍🏻
I can't wait to report my boss to HR for inappropriate conduct after I get a warning for turning up to work 3 hours late based on vibes
He will miss his milestone for sure!
I mean this just feels like GW all over.
Rules that are so over-written and over-complicated their almost completely impossible to understand when the actual solution is actually just really simple.
One thing I’d like to see in the ongoing conversations around chess clocks is accessibility.
What has the community proposal been for players who may be mobility impaired (and thus potentially slower in moving around the board as a whole or in moving miniatures) or equally the stress and pressure that a ticking clock can place upon people who are neuro diverse.
Has this been discussed anywhere in the community?
Does it need discussion? Those sorts of situations are pretty easily handled at the table in my experience. If they need more time let's commit to only going 4 or even 3 turns up front. Not every tournament game needs to go 5 rounds, it just needs to be completed under the tournament round limit
@@metal995 I was more wondering if there was a protocol for additional time being provided in such circumstances?
I certainly think saying play less warhammer is not the answer. For example, Why should an individual in a wheelchair only get to play 4 rounds?
If someone needs help then a TO and also the other players will almost always accommodate. We are community buddy
@jonfisher4106 tournament conditions are bound to external real-world constraints such as the number of hours the venue is booked, the fact that people have to go home at the end, lunch breaks etc. Allowing more time to a person is, of course, possible but cannot affect the need to meet those external requirements. Otherwise everybody is penalised.
Also, clock are simply a way to FAIRLY manage time, it simply helps you to materialise the time passing better. If you start a game of AOS in tournament there is already a " time constraint" over your head that might stress you, clock help you to manage it.
@@TheHonestWargamer totally, I’ve seen nothing but good experiences. I just wondered if it had been discussed with the introduction of clocks is all.
For example, in school exams some additional time is often provided for certain conditions.
You are more likely to see requests for dietary requirements in Tournament Packs than say requests for any special assistance. Might be nice to think about adding some paragraphs to packs on how special circumstances will be accommodated with the use of clocks 😀
Wow, this new Kharadron Timelords Army Book leak is weird
It's super weird
I wasn't sure what to make of this when you started, Rob but then you started reading the actual rules and guidelines and that's just fucking insane. It's needlessly complicated...when you could just use a fucking clock!!
Imagine how I felt when I started reading
If the Time Management Staff aren't Mad-Hatter style characters running around screaming "CHANGE PHASES!!!" I'll be really, really disappointed.
Why is World championship wrestling being allowed to manage the clocks that no one is allowed!?!
I'm not sure but it's inappropriate
If you go over time, the clock manager puts you through the table with a special move called "The Milestone."
It's just Rick Flair and Sting hitting slow players iver the head with clocks.
Can GW confirm that time is a flat circle?
only if you square the circle in the process
No that's a clock. INAPPROPRIATE.
Whoever wrote this document watched way too much doctor who recently
I've played at your events. My time milestone is 1 round = 1 beer drunk.
Perfect milestone
Ahahah 😅😅
Well, according to spearhead games, gw uses "lunch breaks" as metric for measuring the passage of time.
Okay guys.... im gonna say something controversial. This is both stupid and over-complicated.
Honestly it's a hot taken
Thanks Rob, that was hilarious! I can't believe someone was paid to write that drivel. It must be some kind of elaborate joke 😂
This has been Brandts opinion on clocks for years. Milestones is the nova method and it’s incredibly easy to exploit.
This document is a bit insane and shows where rules are going wrong 😅
What they did at Nova this year is some of the top players would stall the game until they missed milestones and then would call a judge to then get equal time. It’s absurd.
He honestly seems like a megalomaniac
This video is a great example of why “comedy will never be able to reach reality”. No comedian would ever think this and even if it did, we d never laugh probably because “he tried too hard and went way too far”.
Laughed so fucking much watching this video. I love that I got to learn this is a thing from you Rob. I really fucking do. So damn entertaining ( and frightening to think that this company can still act so dumb out of nowhere )
Great, I've got clock status 2 from watching this.
That's awesome! Don't forget your milestonesn
You have entertainingly given commentary on the most boring AoS content ever...
The amount of mental gymnastics required to subvert just using a clock is insane
It's wild!!!!!!!!!
@@thehonestwargamerstreams better start using their “milestones” or better called “the rock clock”
Chess clocks works terrible in warhammer. It works in chess because there are no rules question, no rules discussions, no gray areas whos time the clock is on, no way interracting with the game in the opponents turn. Its "I go, you go" back and forth. There is also no need to be exact with movements, distances or checking dice rolls. Clocks force you to play fast in a game where precision is vital.
That said, while chess clocks functions poorly in warhammer, the alternative is worse. "Just winging it" isnt an option in a tournament that has to run on schedule and as much as I dislike clocks I dislike calling a game after turn 2 because my opponent took 2.5h to complete 2 turns and deploy a hell of a lot more. It also mean I can feel like I can take my time, because it becomes MY time, and not stress through my turns to finish on time when my opponent slow played like crazy. I think part of my dislike for clocks also stems from my feeling that 3h just isnt enought to introduce yourself, set up, deploy and play 5 turns of warhammer. Maybe I would like them more if tournaments here gave us 3.5 or 4h on the clock.
Prohibiting clocks EVEN IF BOTH PLAYERS AGREE is wild though.
Great post. I love the rational for not liking chess clocks is nothing to do with chess clocks and just that round times are too short to have a social game.
They work pretty well in games like Warhammer though tbh. It keeps time division fair, and it allows judges to give a little additional time for rules questions, similar to magic, yu-gi-oh, warmachine Mk 2+3, 40k, etc. It also just helps keeps things on a schedule that is pretty close to the time allotted per round. It requires a different skill of time management and functioning well under pressure though.
@@suspecthalo I disagree. Some lists by design take more time to play and be effective than others. A Sons of Behemat list will simply not take as long to play a turn with as a Skaven or Gloomspite list. Should a Skaven player be forced to play his 50 - 100 model army as quickly as a Sons player's 5 model army? Should a Sons player really expect a horde list to be played as quickly as gargants? Wouldn't that place unnecessary stress to play quickly on the Skaven player?
I can understand that the alternative isn't exactly attractive: nobody likes losing a 4 hour game that only went to Round 2 because you didn't have enough time to move your models to the objectives while your opponent meticulously measured every millimeter that every one of his 60 clanrats moved. That said I would argue that in a setting where both players are acting like mature adults and nobody is attempting to cheat the other that a setup without chess clocks is more fair to both players than one with them.
@@TheBaconShaman While you could make the argument that the decision time should be divided equally and the 200 clanrat army should have more time than the SoB player because it just takes more time to move/roll dice for so many models, it doesn't work in a bigger context.
Sure vs SoB the rats might take some extra time but what happens in the next game when he faces 200 zombies? And 200 goblins in the game after that? If you go to a tournament, you need to be able to finish a game in 1.5h (assuming 3h is the decided match lenght), and if you can do that in other matches then there is no reason you can't do it vs SoB.
My experience has been that clocks makes most games less fun but turn the occasional unplayable game, vs an incredibly slow opponent, into a a real game of warhammer. For that reason I don't bring chess clocks to tournaments but certainly won't blame an opponent for doing so (tournaments here always plays chess clocks if one player requests it).
@@umpac123 I think you missed my point. I'm fully aware that in a timed format that you need to be able to play your models in a reasonable time frame, but when a horde army plays a horde army both players face the same struggle against the clock. The game may very well end early, but, assuming equal skill, both players will have played roughly the same amount of time. This does not occur when a player who runs an elite list plays against a horde. Even the fastest clanrat spammer will struggle to finish in a similar time frame to the slowest megagargant list. The ease of being able to play the army slowly in a timed format is an inherent advantage that the Sons player has that was not intended for nor balanced around. This simple fact makes horde armies weaker in tournament play than they should be based on their rules and points costs, and in some formats makes them unplayable.
If the rules of the game, the models in the range, and the theme of the army all support creating an army list that runs large numbers of models then I don't think we should be enforcing that the competitions where we celebrate the highest expression of gaming skill penalize those lists because they take longer to use.
Time to break out the 4000 man stabba list. Sure, I get 2-1/2 hours to my opponent's 30 minutes, that's fair.
Whoah whoah whoah! Hold on! As long as you get even rounds, so swarm him in, complete 2 rounds.. Win.. easy
GW: first they came after my money and now they come after my time too.
It feels like these clock rules were meant to be released on April 1 and accidentally held back for 6 months. When you got to the bit about "clock status" I started giggling uncontrollably.
Talk about making something way more complicated than it needs to be.
its like several layers too complex
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Honestly it feels like a rule from 2nd edition 40k or something. "Time-splitting device," a 40 point piece of wargear with several pages worth of rules.
I never knew something was missing in my life....a clock policy...every day is a school day. Somebody actually spent time and was paid to come up with this!
This is the most insane document I've ever seen. I actively wouldn't go to Atlanta with this in place.
They can't even write the rules for time succinctly.
Hahaha
fuck yeah. bringing a comically oversized sundial to my next GT
Perfect
Metal detectors will be installed at the door to ensure no timekeeping devices are smuggled in.
Keep your watch at home, or risk it being seized
If you didn't make the game with time in mind, you just didn't make a game.
Agreed
So you can’t check your watch to make sure you aren’t going over your time?
Smart
8:10 that meme montage was awesome 😂
I want to see one of the judges FREAK OUT when a player takes their phone out because their mom called them.
Incredible video, Rob!
This was absolutely the best comedy I’ve heard in quite some time. Thank you for brightening my day with your humor!
I might be in the minority here, but I actually do understand what their intentions are by calling chess clocks “inappropriate”, and only want to utilize them in edge case scenarios. Having to manage a clock back and forth for every type of interaction (saves, wards, covering fire in the opponents turn and then your own stuff in your turn etc etc), sorta takes focus away from them game, and puts time management in the front of the game instead of being an intention or a guideline.
Again I do feel like a system like this encourages people to “vibe it out” in time (to use your own words), showing good sportsmanship. However, for the edge cases, where people are unable to adhere to the guidelines, there are contingencies in place, where clocks can be put in the forefront and everything can be centered around them, which is fine to complete a game that’s not on track.
Personally I do feel like a chess clocks takes something away from the game, but I’m also not planning on competing for worlds anytime soon, so maybe my opinion isn’t valid :-).
Of course your opinion is valid and I clearly don't agree but I'm glad you expressed it and hope you do in the future
@RagDollRat This is fake. Plenty of people play complex and large armies in a timely fashion. It just takes practice and planning.
You are definitely not the only person who feels this way. Thank you for speaking up.
@RagDollRat I personally play some complex and some large armies. I should have no right to more time than my opponent. It's my choice to bring a larger army and my opponent should not be penalised.
The faxt is that there's only so much time in a round and literally the only way it can be fair is for both players to get an equal share.
I think you have a valid point. Usually I agree with Rob's point of view on most things .. but there is another aspect of the game that hasn't been discussed, or that I've seen. And that is, experienced vs. non-experienced players. It can really be intimidating for an inexperienced player, and perhaps one with a bigger army to feel an added pressure of a chess clock. And an added pressure playing against an experienced player who may be getting through turns quicker. It adds to an overall unwanted feeling that the inexperienced player is always using their full amount of time, and them feeling rushed or intimidated to look up a rule, and perhaps they would feel like an annoyance in the game and have a less enjoyable time. Which is maybe what the overall spirit of the game is about .. the subtraction of the clock seems a little more universally inclusive .. and yes, the additional clock rules at the end, are really for specific situations that need to be controlled, that are within the discretion of the organizers. I think it makes sense .. the additional rules may seem complicated, but they are really not there for the sake of complication .. they are there for the sake of more inclusion for inexperienced and younger, or players with larger armies while maintaining an ability to control some things that may get out of hand.
Somehow GW released rules more confusing than Manifestations. Impressive
Are the judges going to place the Clock Rage tokens next to my base on the floor like im an Aggradon?
I don't really care about competitive tournament rules but this whole post is comedy gold 😂
That's the goal
Imagine writing a 4 page document and being THIS insane and ruining and event purely because you want to die on a hill you stood on years ago.
Wild levels of ego.
What a bunch of nonsense. Just use a darn chess clock! This all makes no sense at all 😂😂😂
Correct
Would have loved if there was a chess clock edited into the video, which tracks the time of him talking about GW and one for his opinion
Damn it I should have
Just ordered a new t shirt that says. “My Clock Status is Massive”
the funniest outcome would be that everyone competing decides to slowplay, rule would be gone after day 1 of the event
I I understand what GW tries to do here (it is though a problem in game design that SBG take 2-3 times the time to play as gargants, while other board games make efforts to keep the same economy of actions across players),. I was very happy with how this casual feeling turned out in Warhammerfest. On the other hand, it makes no sense to forbid two players to use a clock if they both agree in an event like Warhammer Worlds.
Even as a lazy casual this was hilarious thanks! The addition of Terrible Terry Tate the office linebacker could add some real jeopardy to enhance the situation!
People need to have an equal amount of time because if they don't people will take the piss where prizes are availble and time their opponent out in one way or another
I've never seen a game of AoS played with a chess clock, how do people normally handle actions you perform in your opponent's turn, including rolling saves and wards etc?
Do it on your time
you tap the clock... that simple.
if you are passing any action to the opponent you tap the clock and pass the time.
GHB p 46 explains this. When out of time all you may do is roll saves
In other news: Games workshop has invented square shaped wheels.
The sarcasm is strong with this one! This sounds like it was written by a lawyer who has never played a game. I think that is the sort of thing that puts people off tournaments
It is dumb but not how it's done the world over
@@thehonestwargamerstreams yeah of course, I'd love to come up to one of your events one day cos it sounds ace, but when the big boys at GeeDubs are putting out rules like this... gives a bad vibe to people thinking about getting into the event scene
Chess clocks in tourneys are so needed. Recent RTT I attended winner played DOT horror spam. Not a single game did he make it past turn 3 and they had to talk it out to determine winner. If you bring an army that requires 5 full rounds have a chance at chewing through and take so long as we can only get through 3 rounds its incredibly unfair.
No clocks at a tournament means I'm not coming and neither should any other serious competitor.
Were you going? That sucks I'm sorry
I'm not surprised Rob - as you recall, in quite a big event, Games Workshop Ended Time just before the launch of Age of Sigmar, so acknowledging Time is inappropriate as it would be a reference to a previous game system and would only confuse players. We can't have people accidentally ranking up on square bases in the middle of the World Championship Wrestling event
Dear Rob and Louise, through slow play I managed to get a finalist penalised to clock(5) and they lost the tournament….. am I the as##ole?
You are smart (7)
Am I a smartass?
Wouldn't want to win this way if overtime is possible and the other player doesn't take forever. Would've just pushed him a bit to hurry up and make the significant desicions. Wouldn't feel like an honest win for me
Rob' level of sarcasm and facetiousness is perfect ❤
Even managed to stay on time. Respect 🙏 🫡
As the doctor said: it is wibbly wobbly timey winey stuff
I do have the feeling, all they wanted to do: You dont loose to the clock... Wich is fine, you could just simply remove points for going over the time limit...
I’m really struggling to think of something, anything, that rivals this in terms of convoluted, absurdity. Either someone is terrified of clocks unless completely necessary OR they’re just really against a logical system that works for everyone else because they can’t copyright it as their own system. It so bad it’s hilarious though and this video made me laugh.
'3.3.3.1 "Clocked" Status' gave me a laugh.
Using a chess clock? Obviously inappropriate. Yuck.
Writing a sub-sub-sub-chapter explaining the "clocked" player status effect? Totally normal and appropriate.
At the start of the video I was thinking "who really cares about some tournament rules for clocks, it makes no difference to 90% of people".
By the end of it I was literally cackling at the depth of depraved absurdity of these official GW guidelines, this is an absolute clown moment that deserves the spotlight and I found it hilarious
What the absolute FUCK were they smoking when they wrote this? JFC a clock would have solved all this
2 things -
1 - All Clock Managers must be certified by Flava Flav
2 - Mike must have an Advanced Degree in Steiner Math, as that is the only way this makes any degree of sense to us mere mortals
I’m beginning to think letting D-Tier Batman villains write the tournament rules was a mistake
I agree
Hahahahhaaa
I don’t like chess clocks and the mini game it creates. I do like how GW announces the time and the approximate place both players should be within a game. A good compromise would be to have an enforcement halfway into the game to where if you are way behind midway then you split the time. Nothing is perfect but I see both points…..
You have taken so much piss out of this that my PC smells like a urinal :)
Perfefto
This maybe the greatest video you’ve done. Great work
Rob, This whole thing, if is not a shitpost-document, reminds me of the Hitchiker's Guide riffs on bureaucracy.
Highly experienced clock time management expert available to hire, can bring my own time clock device mechanism.
Also, ALL OF THIS IS INSANE.
GW: "There's no need to be toxic and rush people."
Competitive Players: "I took that personally"
If my train is at 6pm can I rush you so I make my train. Being disrespectful of other peoples time is toxic. You just have an issue
Why the fuck is Terry Gilliam writing GW tournament rules?
It sounds to me like they want to treat it more like golf than chess. Finish the round in a reasonable time or be put on a clock. I’m fine with that. As long as both players have enough time to complete their game, the actual time split doesn’t matter. What I think is less fair is having to stop the game early because of time constraints. Like you would never just call it after 16 holes of golf because some time clock runs out.
I think it’s inappropriate 😂
I'm between milestones here and I might get deathclocked for watching this.
That's a disciplinary in 3-5 working milestones
If only game companies focused on their game rules and models and let the community manage events where they know what their players want.
I prefer tournaments that give a bit more, 3,5 h games.
It leaves a bit more room for having casual conversations, have fun and so on, without sacrificing trying to win tournament / taking it serrious.
That's super fair. Let me know who runs them
I'm against clocks, but sometimes are necessary. Sincerely i've seen more opponents with small amount of pieces and abilities use much more time. The real way to cut ti,es should be digital,dice throwing, it save tones of time
I'm sorry, This video went pass the milestone, I'm afraid we will have to add another 20 minutes to it.
I'll accept clock (1) not clock (2)
So if I don’t like my opponent and there is a big chance he is gonna play my friend in the final I can mess up their event by playing slow……
I think the bigger question here is: of course the game is not designed to be "timed" and about "who can do the most actions in an hour", but there is also a... clinically interesting matter to discuss, which is what kind of people could possible take 2 hours to play HALF of an AoS-game...
good point
This video is an advert for Mantic's Kings of War.
I agree this is nuts, and that clocks are totally necessary but I will also say 40k tournaments especially are kind of joking themselves by having 3 hour rounds. Either tournaments need to lower the points threshold or they need to start sooner/break rounds up better.
RAW: Clocks = inappropriate So lets make sure and use clocks.
Well that's how it works in magic, the rounds have a time limit, not all player play at the same pace, and it depends on the deck, state of the play etc. If a player takes too long to make decisions you can call a judge and he can be issue a warning to your opponent (I don't know the ins and outs, it's really complicated). Since a game of magic is shorter, maybe it's more applicable that an AOS game. I guess it require to have many more judge (a lot of time the judge stay to evaluate if the player is indeed playing too slow). A Chess clock seems really practical in a lot of cases indeed, that's sad that they didn't embrace it. But it is feasible without, and yeah they probably didn't think of time while designing it, which is fine.
I find this whole thing fucking hilarious!! 😂 this article is such a GW thing to write
The only thing dumber is a clock policy that allows 7 hour finals...
Please can you do a video about how to best use a time-splitting device? All RUclips has are inappropriate ones on Chess clocks
Nothing to do with the post but I also really enjoyed the TimeSplitters video game back in the day
Heck yeah! We need a Free Radical comeback tour. We need Timesplitters 4!!! 😁 absolutely stellar game series.
I used to like chess clocks when I played Guild Ball - kept you on your toes